AARoads Forum

Regional Boards => Northeast => Topic started by: mightyace on February 16, 2009, 05:29:14 PM

Title: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on February 16, 2009, 05:29:14 PM
PTC Leaves existing trade association.

Stunned reaction to Penn Pike's blow to IBTTA (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4003)

Penn Pike departs IBTTA to form American Public Toll Assoc (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4000)

Reacations?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 16, 2009, 09:52:54 PM
Now they can put that $21,000 they used to pay in dues towards their projects.  Seems that cutting back has become a trend lately with the PTC as they closed down the MFE/SB Project Office in Duquesne.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 17, 2009, 03:45:42 PM
Maybe they can actually make I-70 a freeway by using that money to help build an I-70 interchange with I-76/Pennsylvania Turnpike(with no signals or shopping centers off it)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 17, 2009, 04:43:42 PM
Maybe they can actually make I-70 a freeway by using that money to help build an I-70 interchange with I-76/Pennsylvania Turnpike(with no signals or shopping centers off it)

The idea of a direct connection was killed thanks in part to Bud Shuster.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on February 17, 2009, 04:56:54 PM
The idea of a direct connection was killed thanks in part to Bud Shuster.

Man he was busy!

Isn't he out of office now?  :clap:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rawr apples on February 17, 2009, 06:02:13 PM
local opposition would put a quick stop to that
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 17, 2009, 08:53:29 PM
Isn't he out of office now?  :clap:

He retired earlier this decade, but his son Bill (http://www.house.gov/shuster/) now holds his former seat.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 17, 2009, 08:55:06 PM
local opposition would put a quick stop to that

That's exactly what happened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: EVjohn168 on March 11, 2009, 09:58:38 PM
If anybody needs an easier way to Norfolk/Va. Beach from The Pittsburgh area, I can give it to you.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: EVjohn168 on March 11, 2009, 10:01:44 PM
The Pa. Turnpike is a PURE JOKE for a toll road. Those tunnels are old and outdated. The speed limit should be cut back to 60. The N.J. Turnpike is more smoother and wider. Go figure.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 12, 2009, 12:49:13 PM
Not to mention it carries more traffic being located in the Megalopolis so it should be wider.

The sections of Pennsylvania's that have been rebuilt are much improved over the old highway; however, I'd prefer the PTC had added a third lane to all rebuilt sections as part of the plans.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 12, 2009, 08:25:57 PM
From the PA Turnpike Website:  (http://www.paturnpike.com/rttc/AdvisoryInfo.aspx?ID=121614 (http://www.paturnpike.com/rttc/AdvisoryInfo.aspx?ID=121614))

Title:      Planned Detour Interstate 76 Carlisle to Breezewood
Location:    226-Carlisle AND 161-Breezewood   Mileposts: 226.5-161.5
 Direction:
 All    Lanes Affected:
All Lanes    Traffic Flow:
At or Near Posted Speed Limits    ETA:
3/15/2009 @ 4:00 AM
   Report Type:   Update   Date/Time:   3/12/2009 6:45 PM
Comments:
Please be advised of a planned detour this weekend on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, between the Carlisle Exit 226 and Breezewood Exit 161 interchanges. The detour is scheduled Saturday night March 14th into Sunday March 15th, and will begin at 11:00 pm for Eastbound motorists by closing the Breezewood Interchange Exit 161. Westbound motorists will be detoured at 11:45 pm when crews close traffic at Carlisle Interchange Exit 226. Blue Mountain Exit 201, Willow Hill Exit 189 and Fort Littleton Exit 180 traffic intending to travel Westbound will be permitted to enter the system. The detours are required so that crews can demolish two overhead bridges located in Cumberland County.

_______________________________________________________

Now that's some detour!

The most logical alternate route to me seems to be US 30 between Breezewood and Chambersburg and I-81 between Chamberburg and Carlisle.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 12, 2009, 09:28:16 PM
Now that's some detour!

The most logical alternate route to me seems to be US 30 between Breezewood and Chambersburg and I-81 between Chamberburg and Carlisle.

That is more for trucks to use rather than trying to negotiate the winding, narrow US 30 over the mountains.

After the complaints the PTC received after the numerous accidents in the MP 75-85 reconstruction zone and resulting closures of the mainline with traffic detoured over PA 31, they route traffic via higher capacity routes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 24, 2009, 07:32:15 PM
Gov fires corruption 'target' chair Rubin from Penn Turnpike Commission

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4069 (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4069)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 24, 2009, 08:10:22 PM
Study Calls Aborted Turnpike Leasing Flawed (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09083/957921-100.stm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 27, 2009, 07:39:49 PM
Once again....

From the PA Turnpike Website:  (http://www.paturnpike.com/rttc/AdvisoryInfo.aspx?ID=121812 (http://www.paturnpike.com/rttc/AdvisoryInfo.aspx?ID=121812))

Updated:      3/26/2009 12:02 PM
Title:    Planned Detour - Interstate 76 Carlisle to Breezwood
Location:    161-Breezewood AND 226-Carlisle   Mileposts: 161-226
 Direction:
 All    Lanes Affected:
All Lanes    Traffic Flow:
At or Near Posted Speed Limits    ETA:
3/29/2009 @ 5:00 AM
   Report Type:   Initial   Date/Time:   3/26/2009 12:02 PM
Comments:
Please be advised of a planned detour this weekend on the Pennsylvania Turnpike between the Carlisle (Exit 226) and Breezewood (Exit 161) interchanges. The detour is scheduled Saturday night March 28th into Sunday March 29th and will begin at 11:00 pm. for Eastbound motorists by closing the Breezewood Interchange (Exit #161) and then Westbound motorist will be detoured at 11:45 pm. when crews close traffic at Carlisle Interchange (Exit #226). Traffic intending to travel Westbound from Willow Hill (Exit #189) and Fort Littleton (Exit #180) will be permitted to enter the system. The detours are required so that crews can demolish two overhead bridges located in Cumberland County
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 29, 2009, 04:59:57 PM
Weather Warning Carlisle to Reading (http://www.paturnpike.com/rttc/AdvisoryInfo.aspx?ID=121844)

Tornado Warning - NWS State College (http://kamala.cod.edu/offs/KCTP/0903292021.wfus51.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jackson1300 on April 06, 2009, 10:20:24 AM
The truck stops and businesses along the I-70 stretch of US 30 will never allow a direct connection the PA Tpke to I-70.  It would kill business at the truck stops and gas stations along that 1/2 mile stretch.  Even though a direct-connect would keep "turnpike to freeway" traffic moving, it actually comes in quite handy for a quick pit-stop at Breezewood.  I kinda would hate to see a direct connection, it would push me to keep driving instead of stopping to grab a drink, a bite to eat, and use the facilities for a quick 15-30 minute break.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on May 26, 2009, 03:56:27 PM
The PA Turnpike Authority has completed reconstruction and six-laning on the western 10 miles  http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4174 (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4174)

EDIT: fixed to show right authority
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on May 26, 2009, 05:16:47 PM
PennDOT has nothing to do with the Turnpike system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ian on May 26, 2009, 07:45:02 PM
Its also Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on May 26, 2009, 07:47:14 PM
Unfortunately, it's a tossup to whether PennDOT or the PTC is more disorganized and corrupt.  X-(
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on May 26, 2009, 09:01:47 PM
Personally, my opinion of PennDOT has improved hugely since they opened ECMS to guest users.  It is now possible to see what they are actually doing in terms of construction.  The PTC hasn't gotten to that point yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on May 26, 2009, 09:32:30 PM
Personally, my opinion of PennDOT has improved hugely since they opened ECMS to guest users.  It is now possible to see what they are actually doing in terms of construction.  The PTC hasn't gotten to that point yet.

Well, I've never lost the bad taste in my mouth from the Milton Shapp administration in the 1970s.  So, I am definitely biased here. :-P
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on May 31, 2009, 12:47:39 AM
The PTC is once again debating what to do with the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel:  http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on May 31, 2009, 03:16:18 AM
The PTC is once again debating what to do with the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel:  http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm).

As the article said, they've been talking about this for years, but no action.

Of course, talk is cheap, but new highway is not!

Stop talking and start doing something PTC!  :banghead:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on June 01, 2009, 05:36:44 PM
The PTC is once again debating what to do with the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel:  http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm).

Tollroadnews.com has also picked this up.
http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4186 (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4186)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 17, 2009, 08:40:14 PM
Some Pennsylvania Turnpike Curves Will be a Little Less Sharp (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/westmoreland/s_629794.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on June 17, 2009, 08:57:32 PM
Some Pennsylvania Turnpike Curves Will be a Little Less Sharp (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/westmoreland/s_629794.html)

<sarcasm>The PTC is acutally using toll money to maintain and upgrade existing turnpike right-of-way.  What a concept! :clap:</sarcasm>
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 17, 2009, 09:03:43 PM
<sarcasm>The PTC is acutally using toll money to maintain and upgrade existing turnpike right-of-way.  What a concept! :clap:</sarcasm>

They've been doing that for about a decade now.  When the section around Donegal was rebuilt a few years ago, the S-curves just east of Exit 91 were straightened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on June 17, 2009, 09:10:42 PM
<sarcasm>The PTC is acutally using toll money to maintain and upgrade existing turnpike right-of-way.  What a concept! :clap:</sarcasm>

They've been doing that for about a decade now.  When the section around Donegal was rebuilt a few years ago, the S-curves just east of Exit 91 were straightened.


I know you're right.

IMHO This core mission of the PTC has gotten lost in the shuffle of building all the new "Turnpikes," assistance to PennDOT, the infamous I-80 project, etc.  (at least it feels that way to me.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 19, 2009, 09:31:46 AM
Yeah.. so now we folks in the southern half of the state not only pay the same vehicle registration & gas tax as the people in the northern half for state roads in general.... but we have to pay to use "our" E-W interstate on top of that.  Money that is now not only used for the toll road itself, but to give PennDOT money to use, in part (because it's part of the state), for transportation needs in the north part of the state as well.
And the people around I-80 want to bitch about "fair" every time someone talks about tolling I-80!?!
It can be argued that Act 44 was just an all around bad idea from the start, but the bottom line is that currently the system is extremely unfair to residents that use the turnpike.

Asides from that, I'll give credit to the PTC in the last decade for actually trying to make the turnpike a much better ride.  I can't wait for the completed rebuilding / 6-lane-ing of the Irwin<-> New Stanton stretch.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: exit322 on June 19, 2009, 09:46:32 AM
Three-laning all of the PA Turnpike probably wouldn't be a terrible idea, though for my travels I can easily avoid it to get to Pittsburgh from here.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on June 19, 2009, 10:09:21 AM
And the people around I-80 want to bitch about "fair" every time someone talks about tolling I-80!?!
It can be argued that Act 44 was just an all around bad idea from the start, but the bottom line is that currently the system is extremely unfair to residents that use the turnpike.

I will agree with you that Act 44 is a bad idea.  Diverting tolls to non-toll projects is usually a bad idea.  There is now a lawsuit is Mass. since Mass Pike tolls are paying for some of the non-tolled portions of the Big Dig.

But, spreading the misery around doesn't make it right!

The main thrust of all this chicanery is that Gov. Rendell wants to increase support for Philly and Pittsburgh transit systems either directly or indirectly and I don't see why people like my dad who live in the northern part of the state or even people in southern parts of the state like Bedford and Somerset should pay for this!

As a former PA resident, I remember how the two P's have thrown their weight around and stuck it to the rest of the state!  Might does not make right!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 22, 2009, 07:26:23 PM
PTC Approves Rebuilding Seven Miles in Allegheny County (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09203/985460-147.stm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on July 23, 2009, 09:22:13 PM
The PTC is once again debating what to do with the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel:  http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/973812-147.stm).

Quote from: the article
As the turnpike gradually widens to three lanes in each direction, and with traffic expected to increase, the two-lane tunnels will become a bottleneck.

I have a hunch that by the time the I-70 to Harrisburg section is six lanes all the way, whatever major widening that happens in the Wheeling - KC section of I-70 (truck lanes or 6+ lanes) will be done.

And instead of tolling I-80, they should toll that awful section of I-70 between the Turnpike and I-79 and bring it up to interstate standards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 23, 2009, 09:57:24 PM
I have a hunch that by the time the I-70 to Harrisburg section is six lanes all the way, whatever major widening that happens in the Wheeling - KC section of I-70 (truck lanes or 6+ lanes) will be done.

It won't be six lanes all the way.

And instead of tolling I-80, they should toll that awful section of I-70 between the Turnpike and I-79 and bring it up to interstate standards.

The issue is that no one is going to sell their farmland to the state or give up their house to widen a road they feel is fine.  It has been improved as much as possible with some widening of the median and shoulders, but it will never be like the post-1956 Interstates such as 79 or 80.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: exit322 on July 24, 2009, 11:41:53 AM
I think the appropriate move on 70 might be to take out some of the ramps and make the stop-sign merges a better onramp.  The medians suck, but you can deal with that - it's the off ramps/on ramps that are the bigger problem to me.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SSOWorld on July 28, 2009, 01:49:32 PM
I think the appropriate move on 70 might be to take out some of the ramps and make the stop-sign merges a better onramp.  The medians suck, but you can deal with that - it's the off ramps/on ramps that are the bigger problem to me.
No doubt, I drove that stretch in April and I feared for my life.  I hope no partial realignments happen that force me to clinch it again  :banghead:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 28, 2009, 07:06:03 PM
I think the appropriate move on 70 might be to take out some of the ramps and make the stop-sign merges a better onramp.  The medians suck, but you can deal with that - it's the off ramps/on ramps that are the bigger problem to me.
No doubt, I drove that stretch in April and I feared for my life.  I hope no partial realignments happen that force me to clinch it again  :banghead:

Don't worry, PennDOT won't be realigning any sections.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on August 16, 2009, 09:50:56 PM
Allegheny River Bridge Project Will Take on the Appearance of a Natural Hillside (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleynewsdispatch/s_638566.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Sykotyk on August 16, 2009, 11:17:38 PM
Other than the absurdly short ramps on that stretch of 70, the other big complaint I have is the Mon River crossing. Slowing an interstate down to 45mph is rather troublesome. Throw in that a lot of people don't follow it (which makes those that do a problem, afterall, where are cops going to sit at to watch that section?) and you wind up with big safety issues.

Sykotyk
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on August 16, 2009, 11:55:19 PM
Slowing an interstate down to 45mph is rather troublesome. Throw in that a lot of people don't follow it (which makes those that do a problem, afterall, where are cops going to sit at to watch that section?) and you wind up with big safety issues.

As someone who drove that Interstate regularly for three years, I can tell you exactly where they would hide:  Speers on-ramp, PA 88 interchange, and the North Belle Vernon on-ramp going eastbound, and the PA 906 interchange and Speers on-ramp going westbound.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 08, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
High-Speed E-ZPass Coming Soon to Jefferson Hills Toll Plaza (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2009/20090908144621.htm)

Ironically, the first toll plaza built specifically with high-speed E-ZPass lanes is the last to have them implemented.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mgk920 on September 09, 2009, 01:06:00 AM
I think the appropriate move on 70 might be to take out some of the ramps and make the stop-sign merges a better onramp.  The medians suck, but you can deal with that - it's the off ramps/on ramps that are the bigger problem to me.
No doubt, I drove that stretch in April and I feared for my life.  I hope no partial realignments happen that force me to clinch it again  :banghead:

Don't worry, PennDOT won't be realigning any sections.
Maybe what SHOULD be done instead is to reroute I-70 to follow I-68 to I-79 and then northward on I-79, rejoining its current route via a re-engineered interchange at Washington, PA.

<Ducks!!!!>

 :-D

Mike
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 09, 2009, 01:29:58 AM
the "stop and floor it" freeway merges are indeed a nightmare.

the worst I've ever seen wasn't a freeway but was an expressway section of US-46 that had a very poorly placed big orange temporary construction sign that effectively blocked the view of oncoming traffic from the perspective of the on-ramp.  I pushed over the damn thing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on September 16, 2009, 07:21:07 PM
It's a little stale, but since no one has posted this...

Criminal probe reported into corruption at Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4340)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 16, 2009, 07:57:26 PM
Contractor Ordered to Redo Work on Mon-Fay Bridge (http://www.observer-reporter.com/OR/Story/09-16-Toll-43-Piers)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on October 29, 2009, 06:23:54 PM
Attorney general looking into Pennsylvania Turnpike (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09302/1009272-147.stm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on October 29, 2009, 06:39:11 PM
Attorney general looking into Pennsylvania Turnpike (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09302/1009272-147.stm)

Here are the articles on TollRoadsNews that the above article was referring to:

FBI raid Pennsylvania Turnpike HQ, take hard drives and other evidence (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4418)

New details emerge on FBI raid at Pennsylvania Turnpike - second source confirms (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4419)

IMHO I agree with the Post-Gazette, the author of the article PAHighways cited, that TollRoadNews was not as accurate as they could have been.  In past links on that site, it seems that the person/people running that site have some kind of beef with the PTC.  While anyone who's read the I-80 Tolling thread knows, I don't think kindly of the PTC, giving them a hatchet job that may or may not be based on facts is not appropriate for a news site.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News: Move to abolish Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission
Post by: mightyace on December 09, 2009, 10:13:14 PM
While this is probably a longshot...

Republican backbench move to abolish Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4484)

It's an interesting proposition similar to what has already been done in Massachusetts.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Snappyjack on December 10, 2009, 02:41:28 AM
...and what should be done in New York.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: njroadhorse on December 10, 2009, 06:23:18 PM
...and what should be done in New York.
and what will never happen in Jersey
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 10, 2009, 07:45:15 PM
Personally I think the Thruway Authority does a good job.  The portions I travel are at least as good as NYSDOT maintained roads (and usually better).  Plus you can look up current conditions on the road, great for winter traveling.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on December 10, 2009, 07:58:02 PM
Personally I think the Thruway Authority does a good job.

That used to be the case in PA, back in the 70s and 80s the "free" interstates were rough and the Turnpike was smooth.  But, according to my brother who traveled more of the PA Turnpike lately, the opposite is now true.  (in his opinion and on the segments he's traveled.)

It's the alleged corruption and patronage at the PTC that is another reason for my opposition to tolling I-80.  At the present time, I want PennDOT to maintain it.  If you'd asked me back in 1980, I'd have said something different.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 10, 2009, 10:59:43 PM
That used to be the case in PA, back in the 70s and 80s the "free" interstates were rough and the Turnpike was smooth.  But, according to my brother who traveled more of the PA Turnpike lately, the opposite is now true.  (in his opinion and on the segments he's traveled.)

It's the alleged corruption and patronage at the PTC that is another reason for my opposition to tolling I-80.  At the present time, I want PennDOT to maintain it.  If you'd asked me back in 1980, I'd have said something different.

There are places such as between Allegheny Valley and Irwin that are rough, but those will be rebuilt soon enough.  The parts that have been rebuilt from the ground up like near Donegal and Somerset are smooth.

Something else that has changed is PennDOT doesn't have a crushing debt load from Interstate construction financing now that they had back in the 1980s.  It seems that the tables have been turned in that respect as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: froggie on December 11, 2009, 06:41:56 AM
You can thank Act 44 for that in no small part.  Nevermind the more recent legislation that has PTC subsidizing PennDOT these days...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dougtone on December 11, 2009, 09:32:40 AM
Personally I think the Thruway Authority does a good job.  The portions I travel are at least as good as NYSDOT maintained roads (and usually better).  Plus you can look up current conditions on the road, great for winter traveling.

The NYS Thruway Authority is considered to be a public benefit corporation, which means that they have some independence from the New York State government in how they are operated, while keeping state employees on its payroll.  This allows the Thruway Authority to be on a little better financial footing when the State has money troubles.  Therefore, I think it may be safe to see the Thruway Authority keep its status quo.

I'm not sure if the PTC is also considered to be a public benefit corporation.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on January 23, 2010, 03:37:52 AM
Former Penn Pike official, Fumo aide apologizes, gets five years confinement (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4550)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on January 25, 2010, 07:03:42 PM
More fun and games with those "Paragons of Virtue" at the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.

Former finance manager Bailets accuses Penn Pike chiefs of corruption, waste in lawsuit (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4553)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on February 04, 2010, 03:28:57 AM
US Rep citing TOLLROADSnews asks state AG to investigate potential criminal offenses at Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4572)

Quote
US congressman Glenn `GT’ Thompson, (Republican, Howard, 5th District PA) is asking Pennsylvania Attorney General Tom Corbett to investigate claims in former financial manager Ralph Bailets’ lawsuit against the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC). His letter to the state Attorney General quotes a report of the lawsuit in TOLLROADSnews and includes a printout of our report as an attachment, together with a copy of the complaint and other legal references.

But, as nearly half of I-80's progress through Pennsylvania runs through the his district.  He may simply be grinding an axe.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 09, 2010, 07:49:25 PM
Turnpike Closed for Hours When Man Threatens to Jump (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a9_1jumper.7172019feb09,0,7451533.story)

Pennsylvania Turnpike Commissioner Quits After Admitting to 2 DUI Convictions in Turnpike Vehicle (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/02/pennsylvania_turnpike_commissi.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 10, 2010, 09:15:19 PM
Penn Pike ex-chairman Rubin sang to Feds, more charges & arrests expected (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4647)

However:
Quote
The charges against Rubin have no legal bearing on the Turnpike's application to the Feds to toll I-80 but they add to the political price they'd pay for a Yes decision.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on March 14, 2010, 05:24:12 PM
Slightly off topic, but I agree that the NY Thruway Authority runs a good operation. Especially their radio dispatching system which is excellent. For any of you emergency dispatchers or scanner buffs out there, the frequencies are 453.425 and 453.525.

I'm less familiar with the PTC,  but in general these toll-road agencies seem to me to pretty much have their act together, especially the NJ Turnpike authority. I'm talking about day-to-day operations, not politics and corruption.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 14, 2010, 09:23:16 PM
Slightly off topic, but I agree that the NY Thruway Authority runs a good operation. Especially their radio dispatching system which is excellent. For any of you emergency dispatchers or scanner buffs out there, the frequencies are 453.425 and 453.525.

The Turnpike Commission is still using VHF (http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?aid=1260) even though they are one of the participating agencies in the STARNet OpenSky trunked system which PennDOT has switched over to already.

I'm less familiar with the PTC,  but in general these toll-road agencies seem to me to pretty much have their act together, especially the NJ Turnpike authority. I'm talking about day-to-day operations, not politics and corruption.

It's always the ones in the trenches that take the hits from what the higher ups do or fail to do.  I know people at the PTC, but it's the ones like Rubin and Fumo who give them a bad name.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 16, 2010, 07:09:32 AM
Well, those in the trenches better hunker down again...

Penn Pike ex-chair Rubin to repay Senate $150k, house arrest in deal with USDOJ (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4652)

Of course, if a toll collector took say even $1,000, he'd be in the slammer.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 19, 2010, 09:41:58 PM
Pa. Turnpike Inspector General Announces First Year's Results (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2010/20100319142714.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sammack on March 21, 2010, 10:39:29 PM


The idea of a direct connection was killed thanks in part to Bud Shuster.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity, what exactly did he have to do with it?

Did he enshrine it into federal law?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mc78andrew on March 24, 2010, 09:39:49 PM


The idea of a direct connection was killed thanks in part to Bud Shuster.

Out of curiosity, what exactly did he have to do with it?

Did he enshrine it into federal law?
[/quote]

As Chairman of the House Transportation Committee, you can pretty much do what you want.  He wanted Breezewood PA to look like Las Vegas only with gas stations, motels and fast food joints to provide jobs in what is a rather poor part of the country.  Imagine what the us interstate system would look like if all congressmen had that kind of power.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sammack on March 25, 2010, 07:40:55 PM

As Chairman of the House Transportation Committee, you can pretty much do what you want.  He wanted Breezewood PA to look like Las Vegas only with gas stations, motels and fast food joints to provide jobs in what is a rather poor part of the country.  Imagine what the us interstate system would look like if all congressmen had that kind of power.




I am very familiar with his power, see I-99, as well as the one that replaced him from AK.

But I really don't think he had anything  to do with Breezewood or I-70's dead end at a traffic signal at US 30.

It is my understanding from various communications from former PENN DOT Transportation Secretary's, as well as the former District  9 Engineer, that it is the locals, as well as Bedford Co that have prohibited and will continue to prohibit any changes.

Feel free to contact  Penndot Secy Alan Biehler  or the Dist 9 Executive  Thomas A. Prestash,
tprestash@state.pa.us  for more info

fixed quote mismatch
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 25, 2010, 07:55:39 PM
I-70's dead end at a traffic signal at US 30.

the question then is why dignify that disaster with I-70 signage?  Just take the 70 signs down, or slap TO banners over them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 25, 2010, 11:08:52 PM
Out of curiosity, what exactly did he have to do with it?

I discuss this situation on my Turnpike page, and the story I gleaned from Dan Cupper's The Pennsylvania Turnpike:  A History.

About a decade ago, a state senator from Pittsburgh was involved in an accident at the 70 and 30 intersection and began pushing PennDOT to build the missing ramps.  The business owners went to their US Representative claiming if the two ramps were built, Breezewood will become a ghost town and Shuster got the project killed.  Cupper does not go into details on what exactly happened to kill the idea, but the consolation prize was an upgraded 30 along with new signals with better timing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 25, 2010, 11:28:18 PM
the question then is why dignify that disaster with I-70 signage?  Just take the 70 signs down, or slap TO banners over them.

There are no I-70 trailblazers anywhere on 30 between the two limited-access sections.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sammack on March 26, 2010, 02:03:57 AM
the question then is why dignify that disaster with I-70 signage?  Just take the 70 signs down, or slap TO banners over them.

There are no I-70 trailblazers anywhere on 30 between the two limited-access sections.

I think what Agentsteel may be referring to is this:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=breezewood,+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.976484,76.904297&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.999093,-78.238803&spn=0.003296,0.009388&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.999183,-78.238769&panoid=FBx_gt_LDz-dAVYlt6etpQ&cbp=12,37.17,,0,1.81

and

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=breezewood,+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.976484,76.904297&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.999454,-78.238707&spn=0.003296,0.009388&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.99946,-78.238859&panoid=gQeKhPo2PjOHJZh50rMEIg&cbp=12,92.71,,0,6.23

and

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=breezewood,+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.976484,76.904297&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.999389,-78.236185&spn=0.003296,0.009388&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.999386,-78.236063&panoid=r8jmjH9DiobAR1T57pYfrw&cbp=12,107.73,,0,-2.1
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 26, 2010, 12:37:33 PM
It's criminal.  I'm sick and tired of crybaby companies that want to maintain the status quo to maintain their bottom line.

Notice to crybaby companies: we live in a free market system (well, we're supposed to).  You adapt to your environment.  If you can't adapt, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE.  Live with it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on March 26, 2010, 02:20:05 PM
the question then is why dignify that disaster with I-70 signage?  Just take the 70 signs down, or slap TO banners over them.

There are no I-70 trailblazers anywhere on 30 between the two limited-access sections.

I think what Agentsteel may be referring to is this:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=breezewood,+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.976484,76.904297&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.999093,-78.238803&spn=0.003296,0.009388&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.999183,-78.238769&panoid=FBx_gt_LDz-dAVYlt6etpQ&cbp=12,37.17,,0,1.81

and

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=breezewood,+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.976484,76.904297&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.999454,-78.238707&spn=0.003296,0.009388&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.99946,-78.238859&panoid=gQeKhPo2PjOHJZh50rMEIg&cbp=12,92.71,,0,6.23

and

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=breezewood,+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.976484,76.904297&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.999389,-78.236185&spn=0.003296,0.009388&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.999386,-78.236063&panoid=r8jmjH9DiobAR1T57pYfrw&cbp=12,107.73,,0,-2.1

I-70 shields on a map versus I-70 shields in actual practice?!?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: InterstateNG on March 26, 2010, 02:48:09 PM
I didn't know that fast food chains and DOT's were participants in the same market.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 26, 2010, 02:58:59 PM

There are no I-70 trailblazers anywhere on 30 between the two limited-access sections.

these green signs certainly indicate that I-70 is the mainline.

(http://www.aaroads.com/shields/misc/w23312.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 26, 2010, 03:04:48 PM
Breezewood will become a ghost town

sounds good to me.  "Breezewood" sounds like a synonym for "tumbleweed" already.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 26, 2010, 03:55:22 PM
Breezewood will become a ghost town

Which IIRC, is what Breezewood was before this mess started.

What would probably happen if direct ramps were built and they bypassed Breezewood is that many of the businesses would relocate to a convenient exit on the new route say here:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Breezewood,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.424342,49.921875&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.9786,-78.245444&spn=0.01202,0.012188&t=h&z=16

So if we're gonna have to live with Government Pork on this, how about paying the business to relocate that can't afford to.  I'm not saying that we should, but it might be the only way to get this done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 26, 2010, 04:11:44 PM
So if we're gonna have to live with Government Pork on this, how about paying the business to relocate that can't afford to.  I'm not saying that we should, but it might be the only way to get this done.

oh Hell no - Breezewood should be paying for the bypass out of their own pockets.  Every year since 1975 or so that they have been in business has been a gift.  Literally every other town-by-the-interstate in America has adapted.  Breezewood is nothing but an entitlement farm. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 26, 2010, 04:18:22 PM
oh Hell no - Breezewood should be paying for the bypass out of their own pockets.  Every year since 1975 or so that they have been in business has been a gift.  Literally every other town-by-the-interstate in America has adapted.  Breezewood is nothing but an entitlement farm. 

I agree with you, they should pay.  I was just stating what my be one of the few practical, albeit distasteful, ways to resolve it.  (Devil's advocate.  :evilgrin:)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on March 26, 2010, 04:26:50 PM

these green signs certainly indicate that I-70 is the mainline.

(http://www.aaroads.com/shields/misc/w23312.jpg)

They could add insult to injury and stick an Exit Tab on the US 30 BGS.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 26, 2010, 05:28:07 PM
They could add insult to injury and stick an Exit Tab on the US 30 BGS.

Oh, the agony!  :ded:

Let's not give them any ideas.

I just looked at Google Streetview and it doesn't look like the I-70 West "End" at US 30 is signed as an exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 26, 2010, 08:09:00 PM
these green signs certainly indicate that I-70 is the mainline.

(http://www.aaroads.com/shields/misc/w23312.jpg)

It's just a sign indicating which of the three lanes people should be in to make the turn onto 70, like there would be at any major junction.

Like I said, there are no 70 trailblazers along that section and as I've said many times, the SR designation for the Lincoln Highway is "SR 0030" not "SR 0070" which is what it would be using PennDOT's system of lowest number of highest classification to determine the SR.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 26, 2010, 08:12:42 PM
What would probably happen if direct ramps were built and they bypassed Breezewood is that many of the businesses would relocate to a convenient exit on the new route say here:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Breezewood,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.424342,49.921875&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.9786,-78.245444&spn=0.01202,0.012188&t=h&z=16

They wouldn't move and wouldn't need to considering people know Breezewood is a mile-long service plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 26, 2010, 08:43:47 PM

It's just a sign indicating which of the three lanes people should be in to make the turn onto 70, like there would be at any major junction.

well, that far back, it should be signed with a "to".  The distant sign with the arrow left is fine without a "to", but the one in the immediate foreground, if it is to be interpreted as a trailblazer, should be signed as "to I-70", otherwise the implication is that - bizarrely enough - you are on I-70.

the last green sign on the eastbound freeway segment is "west US-30 to east I-70".  That is correct if I-70 is not on that surface street.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: exit322 on March 27, 2010, 08:57:47 AM
I know it's worse, but I see this much like I see the "interchange" between the Pike and I-81 in Carlisle.  Another mile-long service plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 27, 2010, 11:37:15 AM

Like I said, there are no 70 trailblazers along that section and as I've said many times, the SR designation for the Lincoln Highway is "SR 0030" not "SR 0070" which is what it would be using PennDOT's system of lowest number of highest classification to determine the SR.

Are you saying PennDOT never screws up?  I would assume that I-70 is not a discontiguous highway, therefore it must follow US 30.  Because it's not up to Interstate standards, it doesn't surprise me that this segment would still be numbered 0030.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: exit322 on March 27, 2010, 01:02:27 PM
Could also go with the thought that it's numbered 30 because it was 30 before 70 was even around?  Not sure when PA put in the "SR 0030" type numbers together.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 27, 2010, 01:25:27 PM
well, that far back, it should be signed with a "to".  The distant sign with the arrow left is fine without a "to", but the one in the immediate foreground, if it is to be interpreted as a trailblazer, should be signed as "to I-70", otherwise the implication is that - bizarrely enough - you are on I-70.

It's only about 500 feet from the intersection which is less distance than other locations of guides or gantries on two intersecting roads, end of a multiplex or not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 27, 2010, 01:26:42 PM
Are you saying PennDOT never screws up?  I would assume that I-70 is not a discontiguous highway, therefore it must follow US 30.  Because it's not up to Interstate standards, it doesn't surprise me that this segment would still be numbered 0030.

No, but they are consistent when it comes to cataloging roads.  There is also no classification for the old Turnpike segment between 76 and 30 which would be a 2 1/2 mile "gap" of 70 between 76 and the 30/70 intersection.  In addition, the PTC signs the Breezewood Interchange as "30 TO 70 EAST" rather than "70 EAST 30" or "70 EAST TO 30."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 27, 2010, 01:29:06 PM
Could also go with the thought that it's numbered 30 because it was 30 before 70 was even around?  Not sure when PA put in the "SR 0030" type numbers together.

The SR (State Route) system replaced the archaic LR (Legislative Route) system in 1985.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on March 27, 2010, 02:57:11 PM
Some thoughts:

*  Is the (notional) Breezewood connection still on the Interstate system as chargeable mileage?  If it is and if it were built, would it be eligible for Interstate Construction funds at the traditional 90% federal, 10% state ratio?

*  Does Breezewood have formal status as a "temporary routing" of I-70?

*  Interstate designations are a FHWA/AASHTO function, while route numbering and logging is a state function.  PennDOT therefore does not have to satisfy an external requirement to use "SR 0070" mileposting through Breezewood even if it is considered a temporary routing of I-70.  Similarly, if the Breezewood connection were built as a US 30 relocation and incorporated into the Interstate system as a built length of I-70, FHWA and AASHTO won't care if PennDOT milepoints it as SR 0030.  Business 80 in Sacramento is on point here.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: english si on March 27, 2010, 03:28:38 PM
Given WV plan on extending I-68 to Wheeling, when (if) they do, could the powers that be push for I-70 to go on the continuous interstate route, taking the route out of PA, unless Breezewood is sorted, in a blackmail PA/Breezewood to sort themselves out kind of way?

You'd have to have a 3di up old I-70 to Breezewood, plus the bit to the south of Pittsburg. The cost of resigning would probably be as much as adding two ramps to the south of Breezewood, but it might force something to be done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sammack on March 27, 2010, 05:52:21 PM
It's criminal.  I'm sick and tired of crybaby companies that want to maintain the status quo to maintain their bottom line.

Notice to crybaby companies: we live in a free market system (well, we're supposed to).  You adapt to your environment.  If you can't adapt, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE.  Live with it.


"money is the mother's milk of politics"

My guess would be said businesses in Breezewood have the money.

As long as they have the money as well as power to control the local politics, no matter how much you rant, it will never change.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 27, 2010, 07:39:49 PM
"money is the mother's milk of politics"

My guess would be said businesses in Breezewood have the money.

As long as they have the money as well as power to control the local politics, no matter how much you rant, it will never change.

That's why I made my suggestion of basically "bribing" the businesses in Breezewood to allow a better connection to be built.   (A practical but not necessarily moral matter of getting things accomplished.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sammack on March 27, 2010, 07:59:28 PM
"money is the mother's milk of politics"

My guess would be said businesses in Breezewood have the money.

As long as they have the money as well as power to control the local politics, no matter how much you rant, it will never change.

That's why I made my suggestion of basically "bribing" the businesses in Breezewood to allow a better connection to be built.   (A practical but not necessarily moral matter of getting things accomplished.)

As long as they have the attitude that a direct connection would cause them to "dry up"  be assured no amount of money will change it.

For the most part the history of building the interstate hwy system, hundreds of towns were bypassed.  Towns like Tucumcari used billboards hundreds of miles from the town "Tucumcari Tonight".

It appears to be a simple matter.  A flyover from "nb" I-70 to the tpk entrance and a simple ramp connection from the tpk entrance to "sb" I-70.  Not really that expensive. My guess would be the row is either already owned by PENNDOT or the PTC.

But no matter, as long as the town has the political power they do as has been so aptly stated over and over again, 20-30-40 years from now, it will be the same.

As an aside, I will not buy gas there as their gas prices are much higher then PGH or Hburg.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: froggie on March 28, 2010, 07:20:51 AM
Quote
It appears to be a simple matter.  A flyover from "nb" I-70 to the tpk entrance and a simple ramp connection from the tpk entrance to "sb" I-70.  Not really that expensive. My guess would be the row is either already owned by PENNDOT or the PTC.

It's not that easy.  While the right-of-way is there, the topography of the area would make building the connections as you suggest very difficult, and a lot more expensive than you'd think.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on March 28, 2010, 02:38:18 PM
Quote
It appears to be a simple matter.  A flyover from "nb" I-70 to the tpk entrance and a simple ramp connection from the tpk entrance to "sb" I-70.  Not really that expensive. My guess would be the row is either already owned by PENNDOT or the PTC.

It's not that easy.  While the right-of-way is there, the topography of the area would make building the connections as you suggest very difficult, and a lot more expensive than you'd think.

Was it Micheal Koerner who drew up a map of a proposed "Breezewood fix?" Mind you I'm talking about 10-12 years ago when he did this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 28, 2010, 04:56:13 PM
Quote
It appears to be a simple matter.  A flyover from "nb" I-70 to the tpk entrance and a simple ramp connection from the tpk entrance to "sb" I-70.  Not really that expensive. My guess would be the row is either already owned by PENNDOT or the PTC.

It's not that easy.  While the right-of-way is there, the topography of the area would make building the connections as you suggest very difficult, and a lot more expensive than you'd think.

The topography there is relatively flat considering it is in the mountains and a connection probably wouldn't cost more than what the PTC has spent replacing the Allegheny River and Susquehanna River Bridges.  Most of the money would probably be spent on earth moving operations. Interestingly enough, the Department of Highways built 70 with a very wide median where it crosses the old Turnpike (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Breezewood,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=33.214763,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&ll=39.990438,-78.242075&spn=0.007842,0.01929&t=h&z=16) as if to provide space for a connection, which would be far enough away from the toll plaza that it wouldn't interfere with traffic flow.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Duke87 on March 28, 2010, 05:13:02 PM
As an aside, I will not buy gas there as their gas prices are much higher then PGH or Hburg.

It looks like Google's camera van did, though. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=breezewood,+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=27.976484,76.904297&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Breezewood,+Bedford,+Pennsylvania&layer=c&cbll=39.999378,-78.235425&panoid=dZsawXjyax2AI0rqsDrEhw&cbp=12,117.31,,0,12.31&ll=39.99938,-78.235542&spn=0.003945,0.007081&t=h&z=17)  :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 15, 2010, 01:15:21 PM
Turnpike Approves Toll Increases For 2011 (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10196/1072889-147.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 16, 2010, 09:16:50 PM
Turnpike to Become Nation's Costliest Toll Road (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10197/1073083-455.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Editorial Cartoonist Randy Bish's take on the impending toll increase (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/bish/e_1_2010-07-16.html) - Tribune-Review
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 18, 2010, 12:40:49 AM
Turnpike to Become Nation's Costliest Toll Road (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10197/1073083-455.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

There is a line in that story just like one in an article about the Allegheny River Bridge demolition....
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10195/1072552-147.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10195/1072552-147.stm)

Quote
"It's a proud day for the Pennsylvania Turnpike," said CEO Joe Brimmeier, who noted that by next year, the entire stretch from Ohio to beyond the Allegheny Tunnel, 125 miles, will have been rebuilt.

Have their standards for "rebuilding" changed?? I'm pretty sure sections like Irwin-Monroeville, or the Westmoreland/Somerset Co. line to near the Somerset interchange, to name a few, will not be rebuilt from the "ground-up" (Like other sections have been) by next year.  A "simple" resurfacing and such maintenance, sure... but not completely rebuilt.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: yakra on July 21, 2010, 04:31:02 AM
Editorial Cartoonist Randy Bish's take on the impending toll increase (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/bish/e_1_2010-07-16.html) - Tribune-Review
HA! How `bout this one? http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/bish/e_1_2010-07-18.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 21, 2010, 03:24:12 PM
Editorial Cartoonist Randy Bish's take on the impending toll increase (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/bish/e_1_2010-07-16.html) - Tribune-Review
HA! How `bout this one? http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/bish/e_1_2010-07-18.html

Yep, that's a good one, although it would be more appropriate in the PA 28 Construction Updates (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1918.0) thread.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on August 04, 2010, 10:30:05 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission Approves Construction of Route 29 All-Electronic Interchange (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2010/20100804141543.htm)

Having been proposed for most of the previous decade, it looks like this connection will finally become reality.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on September 08, 2010, 06:30:25 PM
Anybody seen any confirmation (or credible denial) of this?

Eastern Regional Office of Penn Pike raided - two directors fired, computers, documents hauled off (BREAKING NEWS) (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4889)

Quote
A source at the Pennsylvania Turnpike reports a dramatic raid this morning at the Eastern Regional Office (ERO) of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission. He says a team from the Office of the Turnpike Inspector General, Anthony Maniscola showed up during the morning.

Two directors, longtime staffers at the Turnpike - Melvin Shelton and John Trevolina (spelling needs confirmation) were told they were fired and escorted to their cars and sent away, according to the report we received. Meanwhile members of Maniscola's 'hit team' disconnected a number of computers and took them away. They also emptied filing cabinets, boxing their contents and carrying the boxes to their vehicles too.

We don't have any independent confirmation of this. A Turnpike spokesman missed our call but emailed us later: "I cannot confirm anything relating to personnel actions undertaken by the commission today."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 08, 2010, 11:43:35 PM
There are no other news outlets from the Philly area reporting any "raid" on the Eastern Regional Office.

They need to run spell check on that article, as Dan Onorato is not the "Democrati" candidate for governor and while spelling his name correctly in the article, it is mis-spelled under his picture.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 09, 2010, 10:26:10 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Officials Confirm Firings at Philadelphia-area Office (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/09/pennsylvania_turnpike_official_1.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on September 10, 2010, 10:50:18 AM
Thanks for the confirmation.

And this interesting tidbit from the article.
Quote
The firings were first reported by TollRoadsNews, a transportation industry newsletter published out of Frederick, Md. Turnpike spokesman Carl DeFebo confirmed the firings of Melvin M. Shelton and John P. Travelina on Thursday.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 21, 2010, 03:45:13 PM
Just came across this in the (Pittsburgh) Post-Gazette..... (I don't think I've seen it posted anywhere here, sorry if it was...)

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10259/1087670-94.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10259/1087670-94.stm)

At first I thought, "What an idiot"... but in thinking about it, if you're not familiar with how the system works, I guess it's a legitimate interpretation of "No Cash"...  Both the signs approaching and at the booth should say "E-ZPass ONLY / NO CASH", instead of just E-ZPass / No Cash, I suppose.  (Though, unless the lane was closed at the time, the "Full Service" lane seems like it should make the most sense anyway.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 22, 2010, 05:54:36 PM
My issue is that the guy is from Ohio. Ohio uses E-Z Pass. :| And I bet they have very similar toll plaza signage setups to Pennsylvania. This his argument of it confusing out-of-staters is invalid.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 22, 2010, 07:07:27 PM
I'm surprised this guy didn't e-mail me complaining about the treatment he received, and not wanting a V-Toll, which I sometimes receive in my inbox.

I don't understand why drivers from Ohio have such difficulties with our toll plazas.  Yes, the sign above the lane would say "NO CASH" but it also has a giant "E-ZPass" logo below which the motorist failed to see.  Even before he got that far, he failed to see the "TOLL ROAD" on the guide sign (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=New+Stanton,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.38984,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+Stanton,+Westmoreland,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.225155,-79.594488&spn=0.007618,0.01929&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.225268,-79.594304&panoid=hYmGZBWsFpJGNEnF6xhLBQ&cbp=12,50.78,,0,-24.43) for 66 at the 119 cloverleaf or the announcement at Exit 1 that it is the last free exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 22, 2010, 07:13:07 PM
he clearly was intending to pay the toll... so noting the TOLL ROAD signs is not pertinent.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 22, 2010, 07:40:14 PM
It is pertinent since by the time reaching New Stanton, and having used up all of his cash since Cincinnati and do not possess an E-ZPass transponder, the "TOLL ROAD" statement should have made him contemplate an alternate route.

He knew beforehand he would be taking a toll road, he should have put aside a $5 bill for a cushion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on September 22, 2010, 09:30:17 PM
He wanted to pay by check or credit card... name one other highway system that lets you do that at a toll plaza?  (I know they are contemplating credit card payments at plazas now... imagine if a card gets rejected - multiply exact change headaches by 20.)  I may offend someone by saying this, but I see him as an older driver who can't keep up with all this newfangled toll technology and had too many signs to read and therefore got confused.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 23, 2010, 12:06:29 PM
My issue is that the guy is from Ohio. Ohio uses E-Z Pass.

They haven't had it for that long.
And the article makes it sound like he's from Cincinnati (or at least that's where he works...); He may hardly ever (if ever) even use the Ohio Turnpike. (Or any toll road for that matter, so "E-Zpass" might be a foreign concept to him), so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there.

I guess I just thought, when I first read the article (before analyzing & over-analyzing it), Hey, I guess someone could interpret a sign that says "No Cash" to mean "This must be the lane to use if you have no cash", as opposed to the correct "Cash not accepted in this lane" meaning.

I also want to say that some of the newer plazas on the PTC expansion highways take cards (in addition to being automated for cash), but maybe my brain is just subconsciously making that up.

Also of note, I guess I've never mapped it out (and upon checking, a route via downtown & the Parkway East is Google's recommended route for a trip like that, and it seems about 10mi. shorter), but I'd probably default to avoiding downtown PGH and take that same route via New Stanton anyway (despite I-70's crappiness between Wash. & N.S.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 23, 2010, 02:59:37 PM
And the article makes it sound like he's from Cincinnati (or at least that's where he works...); He may hardly ever (if ever) even use the Ohio Turnpike. (Or any toll road for that matter, so "E-Zpass" might be a foreign concept to him), so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there.

I guess I just thought, when I first read the article (before analyzing & over-analyzing it), Hey, I guess someone could interpret a sign that says "No Cash" to mean "This must be the lane to use if you have no cash", as opposed to the correct "Cash not accepted in this lane" meaning.

Here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Greensburg,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.38984,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Greensburg,+Westmoreland,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.289069,-79.611472&spn=0.003568,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.288855,-79.611479&panoid=AbUEwWWgPAB37VHGC17l8A&cbp=12,359.37,,0,-5.11) is the toll plaza configuration.  If he didn't know what E-ZPass is, and knowing he had nothing E-ZPass, he should have stayed out of the lane entirely.

I also want to say that some of the newer plazas on the PTC expansion highways take cards (in addition to being automated for cash), but maybe my brain is just subconsciously making that up.

The machines used to accept the PTC Credit Card, which was for commercial vehicles to pay tolls before E-ZPass was implemented on the Turnpike System.

Also of note, I guess I've never mapped it out (and upon checking, a route via downtown & the Parkway East is Google's recommended route for a trip like that, and it seems about 10mi. shorter), but I'd probably default to avoiding downtown PGH and take that same route via New Stanton anyway (despite I-70's crappiness between Wash. & N.S.)

He could have taken the scenic route and exited at 51 then taken 48 to 22 and avoided all toll issues.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on September 24, 2010, 04:13:52 AM
I'm surprised this guy didn't e-mail me complaining about the treatment he received, and not wanting a V-Toll, which I sometimes receive in my inbox.

Look at it this way:  is there anything on your website, or anything on the Web that is linked to your name, which might lead him to believe you would admit the possibility that the PTC could do wrong?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 24, 2010, 04:55:18 PM
The only thing is the Toll Highways (http://www.pahighways.com/toll/) section of my website, which has an e-mail link at the bottom which forwards anything sent via that link to my main e-mail account.  Most of the complaints come via the e-mail link on the main index page, which is right above the legal disclaimer that states said website is not affiliated with any government agency and specifying PennDOT and the PTC.

As for a complaints about toll collection, I just received one this past week about an issue on 576.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on October 06, 2010, 12:51:32 PM
Turnpike Considers All-Electronic Tolls (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10279/1092861-147.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on October 06, 2010, 06:06:40 PM
Well, until a more "universal" transponder comes out, it looks like my days of traveling the Pennsy Turnpike are numbered.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 06, 2010, 06:29:06 PM
I was reading that article about the All-Electronic Tolls and I came across this line in it:

Quote
Westbound on- and off-ramps at the Virginia Drive interchange north of Philadelphia are E-ZPass only, and a new eastbound interchange in Bucks County will open as E-ZPass only this month.

Does anybody know where this new interchange is in Bucks County?  Is it part of the I-95/I-276 interchange or something else?

EDIT: Wait, never mind.  Just found a mention in the Wiki article that it's a slip ramp for PA-132.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on October 06, 2010, 08:26:44 PM
I was reading that article about the All-Electronic Tolls and I came across this line in it:

Quote
Westbound on- and off-ramps at the Virginia Drive interchange north of Philadelphia are E-ZPass only, and a new eastbound interchange in Bucks County will open as E-ZPass only this month.

Does anybody know where this new interchange is in Bucks County?  Is it part of the I-95/I-276 interchange or something else?

EDIT: Wait, never mind.  Just found a mention in the Wiki article that it's a slip ramp for PA-132.
The interchange is between Willow Grove (PA 611) and Ft. Washington (PA 309), not affiliated in any way with the I-95/I-276 interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 06, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
I was reading that article about the All-Electronic Tolls and I came across this line in it:

Quote
Westbound on- and off-ramps at the Virginia Drive interchange north of Philadelphia are E-ZPass only, and a new eastbound interchange in Bucks County will open as E-ZPass only this month.

Does anybody know where this new interchange is in Bucks County?  Is it part of the I-95/I-276 interchange or something else?

EDIT: Wait, never mind.  Just found a mention in the Wiki article that it's a slip ramp for PA-132.
The interchange is between Willow Grove (PA 611) and Ft. Washington (PA 309), not affiliated in any way with the I-95/I-276 interchange.

Now I'm confused. :confused:  As far as I read in the Wiki article, it seems there was only going to be a new slip ramp for PA-132.  I know about the already open exit for #340 (Virginia Dr).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on October 06, 2010, 10:49:26 PM
Apologies -- did not read the previous post carefully enough . . . Google maps shows construction where the old eastbound service plaza east of U.S. 1 interchange, so this could be it.  When I was through there a few weeks ago, there was still construction going on, but I could not tell progress because of darkness.  I still don't think that it is affiliated with I-95 interchange, though.

I live a few miles north of there, so I'll try to look around more in the next few days.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 06, 2010, 11:54:35 PM
It's cool.  I've not fully read posts in the past as well.  It's happened to all of us, so no biggie. :sombrero:

Anyways, I'd appreciate the info you can provide me on what's happening around there on this new "slip" ramp.  What I'm curious is if it will have a separate exit number from the main interchange instead of having an "A" ending on it's number.  Mainly, that's the info I need so I can let Tim know to add it for the CHM project if it's "separate" enough from the main exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on October 07, 2010, 03:10:12 PM
The PA 132 E-ZPass-only ramp (http://www.pennoni.com/portfolio/project.aspx?project=189) must not be close to the construction phase, as it is not listed on the projects section of the PTC's site unlike the ones for PA 29 (http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/Route29_SlipRamp/home.html) and PA 903 (http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/Route_903_Slip_Ramp/home.html).

It will probably be Exit 35#, as the Virginia Drive Exit is just 340 even though it only services the westbound side of 276.  I wouldn't worry about updating the CHM until something is announced on the PTC site.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 07, 2010, 10:22:01 PM
The PA 132 E-ZPass-only ramp (http://www.pennoni.com/portfolio/project.aspx?project=189) must not be close to the construction phase, as it is not listed on the projects section of the PTC's site unlike the ones for PA 29 (http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/Route29_SlipRamp/home.html) and PA 903 (http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/Route_903_Slip_Ramp/home.html).

It will probably be Exit 35#, as the Virginia Drive Exit is just 340 even though it only services the westbound side of 276.  I wouldn't worry about updating the CHM until something is announced on the PTC site.

Then what is going to be the new "E-ZPass eastbound interchange" that will be opening in Bucks County this month?  If there wasn't going to be one, why did they mention that in the article? :ded:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on October 07, 2010, 11:09:39 PM
I didn't say it wasn't going to be built, just that there was no mention of its start which is odd since the one for 29 was talked about for most of the last decade.

The only thing I found about a Street Road slip ramp on their site was it being mentioned yearly in their annual Capital Investment Program report, and the PTC board meeting minutes from August which set the fare schedule.  It is mentioned in passing in the press release for the closure of the South Neshaminy Service Plaza (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2007/20070629085100.htm) as part of the Turnpike/95 interchange project but that was all.

It will be located at milepost 352 where the plaza once stood.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on October 08, 2010, 04:21:36 PM
Was just down there this afternoon -- alas, no camera.  Signal on Street Road is up and operational (probably for some time) -- right now it serves the hotel on the other side of the road from the ramp entrance.  No left turns either direction from Street Road, so eastbound traffic must use U.S. 1 to get to the Turnpike in either direction.  Pavement is in and most regulatory/warning signing is in place.  No guide signing on WB Street Road yet.  On Turnpike side, I could see from U.S. 1 overpass that construction barrier is out and lighting, pavement and signing is in place for ramp.  I did not go on the Turnpike to see if guide signing has changed to reflect new ramp -- I would think existing cantilevers would need to be changed to full span structures.

Looks like it is pretty close to opening.  Last I was in that area was mid-September, so progress is reasonable.

If you read Pennoni's propaganda (can you tell I work for another consultant?), it seems like Bensalem Township is administering the project, so that may explain the lack of information on the PTC site.  I used to live in a small development along Richlieu Road (two lights east on Street Road), and I recall that a condition of approval for expansion of Philadelphia Park to include the casino facilities was for direct ramps to and from the Turnpike.  Thinking aloud, perhaps this is it.

Next time I get down there, perhaps when it opens, I will be sure to get photos.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on October 08, 2010, 04:46:58 PM
No left turn from eastbound Street Rd. to eastbound Turnpike? That's a surprise. I guess the ramps are only for Philadephia Park users' convenience.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 14, 2010, 12:26:03 PM
For Pennsylvania Turnpike Toll Collectors, The Bell May Toll (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10318/1103248-454.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on November 16, 2010, 02:19:18 PM
http://blogs.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/news/the-roundabout/23113-allegheny-river-bridge-is-open (http://blogs.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/news/the-roundabout/23113-allegheny-river-bridge-is-open)

Both Allegheny River Bridge spans are now fully open.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 22, 2010, 12:14:56 PM
Street Road E-ZPass-only Ramp Opened (http://www.paturnpike.com/rttc/advisoryinfo.aspx?ID=132996) - PTC

As I guessed, it will be designated Exit 352.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on November 22, 2010, 07:20:19 PM
Okay, someone humor me here. Why did PTC change the name of the Phila. Interchange to "Bensalem"?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 22, 2010, 10:08:40 PM
Probably because any exit east of Downingtown you take will lead you to Philadelphia.  Or Bensalem wanted the mention as what happened to old Exit 3 (now 28) being changed from Perry Highway to Cranberry.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on November 22, 2010, 10:21:17 PM
For Pennsylvania Turnpike Toll Collectors, The Bell May Toll (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10318/1103248-454.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

And for some reason I don't see any cost savings from this to prevent/delay further toll increases.  Probably be some extra fee for the occasional user who comes from a state lacking E-Z Pass toll facilities added also.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Stephane Dumas on November 23, 2010, 03:34:18 PM
Probably because any exit east of Downingtown you take will lead you to Philadelphia.  Or Bensalem wanted the mention as what happened to old Exit 3 (now 28) being changed from Perry Highway to Cranberry.

Or another possibility, the future I-95 interchange will be the Philadelphia interchange. But I think Bensalem Township had a population growth since 2 or 3 decades and now a more important municipality in Metro Philly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on November 23, 2010, 03:49:06 PM
Hmmm........ good thinking Stephane. That kind of makes sense. Like other places in the country where small cities that had major population growth in the last 20 years have become destination cities on some interestates.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 23, 2010, 03:53:57 PM
But I think Bensalem Township had a population growth since 2 or 3 decades and now a more important municipality in Metro Philly.

That whole area has had a population growth in that time.  When the Turnpike was built through there in the 1950s, it was laid through what could have been considered rural land but urban sprawl overtook 276 as it did the 401 in Toronto.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 07, 2010, 08:41:34 PM
Pa. Turnpike Won't Print Tolls on Tickets in 2011 (http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/Pa-turnpike-wont-print-tolls-on-tickets-in-2011/qnY8pwV4bUu5DF7GllEvqA.cspx?rss=50) - WHP-TV Harrisburg

Pennsylvania Auditor General Jack Wagner Questions Whether the Turnpike Commission is Trying to Hide Fare Increases (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/12/pennsylvania_auditor_general_j_2.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on December 09, 2010, 08:22:04 AM
Probably because any exit east of Downingtown you take will lead you to Philadelphia.  Or Bensalem wanted the mention as what happened to old Exit 3 (now 28) being changed from Perry Highway to Cranberry.

Or another possibility, the future I-95 interchange will be the Philadelphia interchange. But I think Bensalem Township had a population growth since 2 or 3 decades and now a more important municipality in Metro Philly.

If you're coming from the west, going to US 1 or I-95 to get into Philadelphia is way out of the way.  If there needs to be a "Philadelphia" interchange at all, you could make as good a case for King of Prussia.  I say "as good a case" because you'd have the same problem in reverse.  Someone remind me whether the interchange in Monroeville is still called "Pittsburgh"?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 09, 2010, 01:32:51 PM
Exit 57 is still called the Pittsburgh Interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on December 09, 2010, 06:15:57 PM
In fact, if we care about interchange names at all (I'm not clear why we do; this isn't Germany), we may as well have them make sense, so that the rare person whose only source of directions is what it says on the toll ticket doesn't go out of his way.  There are already two Harrisburg interchanges, so why not:
I-79 becomes Pittsburgh/Cranberry
I-376 becomes Pittsburgh/Monroeville
Lebanon/Lancaster remains thus
"Reading" (US 222) becomes Reading/Lancaster
"Morgantown" (I-176...) becomes Morgantown/Reading
"Valley Forge" becomes Philadelphia/Valley Forge
US 1 becomes Philadelphia/Bensalem until 95's done, then Bensalem/Northeast Philadelphia
I-95 becomes, um, Philadelphia/something.  Trenton, if we don't object to using a point out of state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on December 09, 2010, 07:44:53 PM
^^^

I like the idea other than the length.

Here are a few alternatives using the idea of "Harrisburg East" and "Harrisburg West"

I-79 becomes Pittsburgh North
I-376 becomes Pittsburgh East
US 222 I grudgingly leave as Reading - Lancaster
I-176 simply becomes Reading
Valley Forge becomes Philadelphia West
US 1 becomes Philadelphia East (until I-95 completed then Bensalem)
I-95 then becomes Philadelphia East when completed - though this probably wouldn't happen due to possible confusion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on December 09, 2010, 08:18:36 PM
Sure.  Why not.  My idea takes into account the egos of local officials in places like Cranberry and Bensalem townships.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 10, 2010, 01:59:41 PM
Personally, I like the exit name to be as "local" as possible, with the control cities indicating more important destinations.  In the west part of the state, I'd keep them as is, except rename "Pittsburgh" to "Monroeville".
I've also never been a fan of "Butler Valley" either for stupid reasons.  (I'd change it to "Hampton")

All the discussion about people's ideas for potential renamings aside... I admit I do like the fact that mainline interchanges have retained "names" along with the exit numbers
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 10, 2010, 02:58:12 PM
In fact, if we care about interchange names at all (I'm not clear why we do; this isn't Germany)...

Where you think the idea for the Turnpike came from.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 13, 2010, 06:30:21 PM
Turnpike Chief's Legacy:  Higher Rates, Better Road (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10347/1110352-147.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 22, 2010, 06:10:31 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Changes Mind About Not Printing Tolls on Tickets (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/12/pa_turnpike_changes_mind_about.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on December 22, 2010, 07:10:56 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Changes Mind About Not Printing Tolls on Tickets (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/12/pa_turnpike_changes_mind_about.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News

Nice that they have decided to reverse it.  Too bad it will take like 3 months for the new tickets to be ready. :pan:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 22, 2010, 07:18:47 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Changes Mind About Not Printing Tolls on Tickets (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/12/pa_turnpike_changes_mind_about.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
That'll make the blank toll tickets a collectors' item.  Jeff, you're PennDOT incarnate, can you get some for us?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ian on December 22, 2010, 08:14:46 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Changes Mind About Not Printing Tolls on Tickets (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/12/pa_turnpike_changes_mind_about.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
That'll make the blank toll tickets a collectors' item.  Jeff, you're PennDOT incarnate, can you get some for us?

I second that!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on December 22, 2010, 08:23:31 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Changes Mind About Not Printing Tolls on Tickets (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/12/pa_turnpike_changes_mind_about.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
That'll make the blank toll tickets a collectors' item.  Jeff, you're PennDOT incarnate, can you get some for us?

I second that!

And I'll 3rd it!  Too bad it's the Turnpike we're talking about which isn't part of PennDOT (yet....).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 23, 2010, 03:18:39 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Changes Mind About Not Printing Tolls on Tickets (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/12/pa_turnpike_changes_mind_about.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
That'll make the blank toll tickets a collectors' item.  Jeff, you're PennDOT incarnate, can you get some for us?

I doubt it.

When I held the 2003 Harrisburg Meet which included a tour of the PTC HQ, we tried to score some then but were told no.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 01, 2011, 06:36:54 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission Chief Retires (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/02/pennsylvania_turnpike_commissi_1.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 01, 2011, 05:45:14 PM
Pittsburgh Businessman Named Pa. Turnpike Commission Chairman (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110301170123.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 08, 2011, 07:52:46 PM
Pa. Turnpike Celebrates Start of $151 Million Reconstruction and Widening Project in Montgomery County (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110304150146.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 18, 2011, 09:35:34 PM
Pa. Turnpike to Show Plans for Widening Project between Butler Valley and Allegheny Valley Exits (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110317100909.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 24, 2011, 11:20:11 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Starts Construction of Route 29 All-Electronic Interchange (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110324163457.htm)

This project, much like many of them, has been talked about for years and it's finally getting off the drawing boards unlike many that have not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on March 28, 2011, 11:52:10 AM
While it is well known to regulars on this board that I am resistant to all-electronic tolling at this point in time, I do have to agree that building this interchange as EZ-Pass only is a reasonable idea in this case.

As this looks to be an interchange primarily for commuters, the percentage of potential users of the interchange that already have EZPasses is probably much higher than the 60% average mentioned in the press release.

Also, with the PTC looking to go all electronic in the near future, it wouldn't be prudent to spend money on traditional toll booths here.  And, hopefully, once the PTC does go all electronic, they will change the cameras to toll non-transponder users at the toll-by-plate rate instead of looking at them as violators.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on April 14, 2011, 05:21:51 PM
Fairview Residents Who Will Lose Land Unhappy with Turnpike Plan (http://www.yorkdispatch.com/news/ci_17836838) - York Dispatch
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on April 15, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
^^^

Nothing unusual of the stories of the unhappy people here.

Unfortunately, there's only so much that can be done to fight eminent domain.

And, while it must stink to be one of the affected property owners, anyone with any degree of common sense should know that losing land or the entire property to a road project comes with buying a property by a major highway.  But, far too many people don't have common sense and they expect their freeway adjacent property to be as quiet and stable as a cabin in the woods.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on April 21, 2011, 08:59:47 PM
Pa. Turnpike Announces Lower Tolls for Street Road E-ZPass Interchange in Bucks County (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110421140125.htm)

Cash-Paying Holiday Travelers to See Pa. Turnpike Tickets with Toll Rates (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110421163645.htm) - The fare schedules return!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on May 19, 2011, 02:03:45 PM
Pa. Turnpike Announces Reopening of Dauphin Lebanon County Service Plaza (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110518100224.htm)

This comes nearly a week after the Bowmansville Service Plaza reopened on the eastbound side in Lancaster County.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 27, 2011, 11:10:57 PM
Prank signs on rest area drinking fountains target gas drilling (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11178/1156490-454.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Professionally done signs are being affixed to drinking fountains at service plazas along the Turnpike, but they aren't official.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 28, 2011, 12:52:08 PM


Prank signs on rest area drinking fountains target gas drilling (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11178/1156490-454.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Professionally done signs are being affixed to drinking fountains at service plazas along the Turnpike, but they aren't official.

You know you pay attention to signs a bit too much when you see that, and before even reading it's "warning" you think "Gee... That DEP logo looks bogus."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 28, 2011, 09:09:03 PM


Prank signs on rest area drinking fountains target gas drilling (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11178/1156490-454.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Professionally done signs are being affixed to drinking fountains at service plazas along the Turnpike, but they aren't official.

You know you pay attention to signs a bit too much when you see that, and before even reading it's "warning" you think "Gee... That DEP logo looks bogus."

Hate to say there are a lot of "special interest" groups that advertise on PA Turnpike billboards.  I can think of AFSCME, anti puppy mill organizations, an association for juvenile justice officers, and clean coal.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on June 28, 2011, 11:33:08 PM
^^What's wrong with that?

And it's unconstitutional to prohibit advocacy or political speech unless you prohibit billboards altogether.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 29, 2011, 02:30:18 PM
Hate to say there are a lot of "special interest" groups that advertise on PA Turnpike billboards.  I can think of AFSCME, anti puppy mill organizations, an association for juvenile justice officers, and clean coal.

I do not recall seeing any billboards within the PTC ROW.  The ones outside the fenced off ROW are usually owned by Viacom and other advertising agencies.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on June 29, 2011, 02:43:01 PM
Better than on Florida's Turnpike:
Quote
Heartbeat Starts at [foo] Weeks
Quote
Pregnant? Your Child's Heart is Already Beating!
Nice to know that pregnancy doesn't begin at conception :)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 29, 2011, 07:17:53 PM
That didn't take long:

Fake signs suggesting travelers put open flame to drinking water removed from Pennsylvania Turnpike rest stops (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/06/fake_signs_suggesting_traveler.html) - Harrisburg Patriot-News
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 21, 2011, 08:20:06 PM
Turnpike Commission OKs 2012 Toll Increase (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20110721140300.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on August 03, 2011, 06:55:13 PM
Aside from the free bottles of water the PTC had out for attendees of the ribbon-cutting ceremony back on July 11, they also had something I hadn't seen in almost seven years:  a new map.  I have detailed the changes between the 2004 and 2011 edition and a copy of the cover on my website's blog (http://www.pahighways.com/blog/archives/50-2011-Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Travel-Guide-and-Map.html).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 02, 2011, 08:52:58 PM
PA Turnpike Launches Hands-Free, Eyes-Free and Cost-Free Traveler Alert Smartphone App (http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2011/20110902143116.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 08, 2011, 06:20:48 PM
39-Mile Stretch of PA Turnpike Closed Because of Flooding (http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-national/39-mile-stretch-of-Pa-Turnpike-closed-because-of-flooding/-/132552/678110/-/7htq7p/-/index.html) - WFMZ-TV
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on September 09, 2011, 12:07:51 AM
Gosh.  But why are they recommending 222 north/61/78/81 as an alternate rather than 222 south/30/283?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 09, 2011, 12:50:58 AM
US 222 is closed between the Oregon Pike and US 322 interchanges due to flooding.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on September 09, 2011, 09:09:33 AM
Ah.  That would do it....
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 23, 2011, 01:21:25 AM
Motorists traveling the Turnpike eastbound from Exit 10/New Castle to Exit 48/Allegheny Valley found themselves in a rather sticky situation last night.  A tanker carrying driveway sealant leaked its load between Toll I-376 and the Oakmont-Plum Service Plaza, with the majority of it falling west of the Warrendale Toll Plaza.

http://www.wtae.com/news/29837601/detail.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 23, 2011, 02:36:33 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike firee George Hatalowich named director "Strategic Operations" at Parsons Brinck PA (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5621)

Quote
A colorful former officer of the Pennsylvania Turnpike George Hatalowich has been put on the payroll of Parsons Brinckerhoff in Camp Hill PA with the unusual title Director-Pennyslvania Strategic Operations. At the Turnpike Hatalowich, 46, was best known as a liaison with and fund raiser for politicians, and for drunken driving charges.

Post Merge: November 28, 2011, 09:11:31 PM
Motorists traveling the Turnpike eastbound from Exit 10/New Castle to Exit 48/Allegheny Valley found themselves in a rather sticky situation last night.  A tanker carrying driveway sealant leaked its load between Toll I-376 and the Oakmont-Plum Service Plaza, with the majority of it falling west of the Warrendale Toll Plaza.

http://www.wtae.com/news/29837601/detail.html

More from TOLLROADSnews: Tar spread by tanker trailer leaks over 40 mile stretch of Penn Pike Tuesday night (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5626)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 29, 2011, 08:28:04 PM
Motorists traveling the Turnpike eastbound from Exit 10/New Castle to Exit 48/Allegheny Valley found themselves in a rather sticky situation last night.  A tanker carrying driveway sealant leaked its load between Toll I-376 and the Oakmont-Plum Service Plaza, with the majority of it falling west of the Warrendale Toll Plaza.

http://www.wtae.com/news/29837601/detail.html

More of the story from the Baltimore Sun:

Trucker cited after tanker oozes asphalt goo onto Pa. Turnpike (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-trucker-asphalt-accident.-20111129,0,5010711.story)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 29, 2011, 08:39:23 PM
More Than 460 Cars Damaged in PA Turnpike Spill (http://www.wjactv.com/news/news/more-460-cars-damaged-pa-turnpike-spill) - WJAC-TV Johnstown
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on November 30, 2011, 10:35:53 PM
More Than 460 Cars Damaged in PA Turnpike Spill (http://www.wjactv.com/news/news/more-460-cars-damaged-pa-turnpike-spill) - WJAC-TV Johnstown

LOL, they have already killed that article.  Guess they don't like hotlinking.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 02, 2011, 12:30:38 PM
More Than 460 Cars Damaged in PA Turnpike Spill (http://www.wjactv.com/news/news/more-460-cars-damaged-pa-turnpike-spill) - WJAC-TV Johnstown

LOL, they have already killed that article.  Guess they don't like hotlinking.

No, apparently just changed the URL:  http://www.wjactv.com/ap/ap/pennsylvania/almost-500-cars-damaged-in-pa-turnpike-spill/nFpqt/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 08, 2011, 10:06:23 AM
TOLLROADSnews:
Consultants say all-electronic should work for Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5645)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on December 08, 2011, 06:19:11 PM
Quote
The consultants would keep the present organization of toll points which over most of the mainline of the Turnpike the toll is trip-based in which a vehicle is registered on entry at a side toll plaza and again on exit and a distance-based toll computed. The western end plus newer extension tollroads are the more conventional point tolling, with multiple tolls levied at mainline or ramp toll points.

A nitpick here.  I would call point tolling more popular than conventional.  When the turnpike was first built, there were few precedents on tolling modern highways and in those early days, the ticket system was popular on all the big projects.  It is also a fairer way to toll as you pay the same rate for the miles you drive.

In a point system, you can pay $2 to drive 1 mile or 10 miles depending if the setup is just right (or wrong).

If you've looked at Toronto's 407ETR road, it works like a ticket system.  There are gantries on all exit ramps and gantries across the mainline only at both ends.  And, their toll schedule reflects this.

With electronic tolling, it is easier to implement ticket systems where it would have been uneconomical in the past.  But, it probably won't change as point tolling is easier to implement and understand.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on December 08, 2011, 07:48:50 PM
In a point system, you can pay $2 to drive 1 mile or 10 miles depending if the setup is just right (or wrong).
And if it's very wrong (Garden State Parkway) you can pay $2 for 10 miles and $0 for 20. (When they changed barrier tolls to one-way alternating they didn't touch the ramp tolls.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 08, 2011, 08:00:19 PM
In a point system, you can pay $2 to drive 1 mile or 10 miles depending if the setup is just right (or wrong).
And if it's very wrong (Garden State Parkway) you can pay $2 for 10 miles and $0 for 20. (When they changed barrier tolls to one-way alternating they didn't touch the ramp tolls.)
You can pay $1.35 for 4 miles - on at 141, barrier toll, off at 145, ramp toll. (Or $1.25 for 3 miles.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: goobnav on December 08, 2011, 08:02:05 PM
The E-tolling is going to be done here on Toll NC 147 and Toll NC 540.  I seriously doubt that the Tollworkers Union will ever allow E-Tolling is PA, if they do, don't surprised if it shows up on I-80.  Rendell may be gone but, unfortunately, his ideas cannot be destroyed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 09, 2011, 02:37:39 PM
Quote
The consultants would keep the present organization of toll points which over most of the mainline of the Turnpike the toll is trip-based in which a vehicle is registered on entry at a side toll plaza and again on exit and a distance-based toll computed. The western end plus newer extension tollroads are the more conventional point tolling, with multiple tolls levied at mainline or ramp toll points.

A nitpick here.  I would call point tolling more popular than conventional.  When the turnpike was first built, there were few precedents on tolling modern highways and in those early days, the ticket system was popular on all the big projects.  It is also a fairer way to toll as you pay the same rate for the miles you drive.

In a point system, you can pay $2 to drive 1 mile or 10 miles depending if the setup is just right (or wrong).

I completely agree.  PA-TPK 66, for example, you pay $1.45 (cash) for the approx. 2 miles between PA-136 & US 30.  The same amount you pay to drive the whole thing from New Stanton to Delmont.  Certainly not "fair".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 10, 2011, 03:48:40 PM
The E-tolling is going to be done here on Toll NC 147 and Toll NC 540.  I seriously doubt that the Tollworkers Union will ever allow E-Tolling is PA, if they do, don't surprised if it shows up on I-80.  Rendell may be gone but, unfortunately, his ideas cannot be destroyed.

They dug their collective feet in when E-ZPass was proposed in the late 90s, and it took concessions to allow it anywhere near the Turnpike.

The plan for tolling I-80 would have been E-ZPass gantries placed at roughly 30 mile intervals from Ohio to New Jersey.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2011, 09:18:56 PM
If you've looked at Toronto's 407ETR road, it works like a ticket system.  There are gantries on all exit ramps and gantries across the mainline only at both ends.  And, their toll schedule reflects this.

Maryland's Md. 200 (ICC) toll road works the same way (toll is based on miles driven), though the designers chose not to put toll gantries at the on- and off-ramps, instead putting a gantry across the mainline roadways between each interchange, possibly because Md. 200 is much shorter than Highway 407.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 16, 2011, 05:37:51 PM
PA Turnpike Reminds Motorists of 10% Cash-Only Toll Increase Next Year (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20111216111152.htm)

Cash fares go up in accordance with the Act 44 legislation passed in 2007.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 17, 2011, 11:05:44 AM
PA Turnpike Reminds Motorists of 10% Cash-Only Toll Increase Next Year (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2011/20111216111152.htm)

Cash fares go up in accordance with the Act 44 legislation passed in 2007.

Does anyone know why some toll road operators (especially the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission) insist on calling tolls "fares." 

In my opinion, fares are what we pay when taking a trip on an aircraft, a bus, a taxicab, or a train, but not for driving our own vehicle (or a vehicle belonging to an employer) on a toll road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on December 17, 2011, 04:19:37 PM
An idea whose time has not yet come...
The 'green' Penn Pike to have electric vehicle charging at 17 service plazas (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5660)

Given the current range of current electric vehicle and the recharging time, I doubt you'll see many people using this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2011, 10:14:24 PM
An idea whose time has not yet come...
The 'green' Penn Pike to have electric vehicle charging at 17 service plazas (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5660)

Given the current range of current electric vehicle and the recharging time, I doubt you'll see many people using this.

I agree, especially given how far it is between Pennsylvania Turnpike E-W mainline interchanges (heck, the range of at least some electric cars does not seem to allow travel between more than one or two interchanges).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on December 19, 2011, 08:51:21 AM
An idea whose time has not yet come...
The 'green' Penn Pike to have electric vehicle charging at 17 service plazas (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5660)

Given the current range of current electric vehicle and the recharging time, I doubt you'll see many people using this.

I agree, especially given how far it is between Pennsylvania Turnpike E-W mainline interchanges (heck, the range of at least some electric cars does not seem to allow travel between more than one or two interchanges).

And also given the time it takes to charge the vehicles with the Level II system that will be (at least initially) provided. (Twenty to thirty minutes for a charge from 20% to 80%.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on December 19, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
They might get some Chevy Volt drivers to use it, but that's all I see at this time.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 20, 2011, 12:58:55 AM
They might get some Chevy Volt drivers to use it, but that's all I see at this time.

Come to Pennsylvania, where our turnpike interchanges are spaced just far enough for you to recharge your Chevy Volt at.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on December 20, 2011, 05:44:42 PM
They might get some Chevy Volt drivers to use it, but that's all I see at this time.

Come to Pennsylvania, where our turnpike interchanges are spaced just far enough for you to recharge your Chevy Volt at.

Well, the only reason I mentioned the Volt is because they also have a Gas tank to allow them to go farther than say the Nissan Leaf.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 26, 2011, 06:53:39 PM
More Than 460 Cars Damaged in PA Turnpike Spill (http://www.wjactv.com/news/news/more-460-cars-damaged-pa-turnpike-spill) - WJAC-TV Johnstown

From AP via WTOP Radio (Washington, D.C.): Insurer claims $1M policy won't cover turnpike goo (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=209&sid=2683842)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: surferdude on December 28, 2011, 11:35:12 AM
Please do not forget the alignment of the Turnpike from Irwin to Harrisburg is over 70 years old.  It is America's first attempt to copy the German AUTOBAHN, which there was a collaboration between Germany and Pennsylvania Engineers.  We all know that the current alignment needs some tweaking but it will be done with Turnpike Money and Turnpike Engineers, not PennDOT money and not PennDOT Engineers. 

I can remember a few years ago that they where seriously talking about disbanding the Turnpike Comission, which is seperate from PennDOT, and letting the Districts themselves service the Turnpike needs that are placed in their District.  However there are some Districts that do not have any Turnpike Highways.  I think that the cost savings would be minimal since PennDOT would have to seperate the Turnpike Highways from the PennDOT Highways.   
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 28, 2011, 03:19:50 PM
Please do not forget the alignment of the Turnpike from Irwin to Harrisburg is over 70 years old.  It is America's first attempt to copy the German AUTOBAHN, which there was a collaboration between Germany and Pennsylvania Engineers.  We all know that the current alignment needs some tweaking but it will be done with Turnpike Money and Turnpike Engineers, not PennDOT money and not PennDOT Engineers.  

I can remember a few years ago that they where seriously talking about disbanding the Turnpike Comission, which is seperate from PennDOT, and letting the Districts themselves service the Turnpike needs that are placed in their District.  However there are some Districts that do not have any Turnpike Highways.  I think that the cost savings would be minimal since PennDOT would have to seperate the Turnpike Highways from the PennDOT Highways.  

PennDOT's Interstate design standards and Interstate pavement maintenance standards far exceed those of the PTC, at least on the average.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 28, 2011, 06:07:40 PM
Considering that most of the Interstate System of Pennsylvania was built after there were standards for Interstate construction, it isn't surprising.  While the original Turnpike and Northeast Extension are antiquated by contemporary standards, the Turnpike extensions are built to modern limited-access standards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 28, 2011, 08:58:36 PM
Considering that most of the Interstate System of Pennsylvania was built after there were standards for Interstate construction, it isn't surprising.  While the original Turnpike and Northeast Extension are antiquated by contemporary standards, the Turnpike extensions are built to modern limited-access standards.

It -is- surprising ... toll-funded highway segments opened between 1940 and 1959 could and should have long-since been improved to at least 1970 Interstate standards.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 29, 2011, 02:29:52 PM
I'll grant that it hasn't necessarily been "long-since", but the PTC has been improving the mainline for over a decade now.  And the stretches they've done are pretty good. 
And in the last couple of years they've decided to 6-lane the sections they've been completely rebuilding.

The recently completed Irwin to New Stanton section is now a very nice drive. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 29, 2011, 03:16:58 PM
I'll grant that it hasn't necessarily been "long-since", but the PTC has been improving the mainline for over a decade now.  And the stretches they've done are pretty good. 
And in the last couple of years they've decided to 6-lane the sections they've been completely rebuilding.

The recently completed Irwin to New Stanton section is now a very nice drive. 

As is the new Susquehanna River bridge and approches.  Problem is over 80% of the length of the original turnpike (E-W and NE) is still in its original design.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 29, 2011, 08:51:25 PM
It -is- surprising ... toll-funded highway segments opened between 1940 and 1959 could and should have long-since been improved to at least 1970 Interstate standards.

It is easier to build new than try to rebuild what already exists.

The now decade-long rehabilitation[/widening] of the original 50s expressway, rebuilding from the ground up rather than the resurfacing jobs that were the mainstay of PTC maintenance, is making for a much-improved ride.  The Turnpike Commission planned "Super Turnpike" concept for the original Carlisle-to-Irwin section featuring 2/2/2/2 car/truck/truck/car ROW complete with holographic signage.  Yes, what is currently happening is not a complete rebuild to full and true Interstate standards, but something is better than nothing.  As the saying goes, "Beggars can't be choosers."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 29, 2011, 09:01:46 PM
It -is- surprising ... toll-funded highway segments opened between 1940 and 1959 could and should have long-since been improved to at least 1970 Interstate standards.

It is easier to build new than try to rebuild what already exists.

The now decade-long rehabilitation[/widening] of the original 50s expressway, rebuilding from the ground up rather than the resurfacing jobs that were the mainstay of PTC maintenance, is making for a much-improved ride.  The Turnpike Commission planned "Super Turnpike" concept for the original Carlisle-to-Irwin section featuring 2/2/2/2 car/truck/truck/car ROW complete with holographic signage.  Yes, what is currently happening is not a complete rebuild to full and true Interstate standards, but something is better than nothing.  As the saying goes, "Beggars can't be choosers."

The Turnpike has a 200-foot-wide right-of-way, wider where cuts and fills and interchanges necessitate.  In most places there is space for an Interstate cross-section with six 12-foot lanes, inside and outside 12-foot shoulders, and a 40-foot median.  In mountainous terrain a 22-foot median (10-foot shouders and 2-foot concrete median barrier) will suffice.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: surferdude on December 30, 2011, 11:12:02 AM
Some sad news there will be hike price for tolls, but if you have EZ-Pass the rate will not change.  So get your EZ-Pass!!!!!

http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20111230/NEWS01/111230005/Pa-turnpike-cash-tolls-going-up-again?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE%7Cs
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 30, 2011, 06:45:38 PM
The Turnpike has a 200-foot-wide right-of-way, wider where cuts and fills and interchanges necessitate.  In most places there is space for an Interstate cross-section with six 12-foot lanes, inside and outside 12-foot shoulders, and a 40-foot median.  In mountainous terrain a 22-foot median (10-foot shouders and 2-foot concrete median barrier) will suffice.

I would have liked them to have added a lane in both directions as part of the rebuilding project, especially within the 70 multiplex.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 30, 2011, 10:55:47 PM
I was wondering:  Did they at least grade for an extra lane between the 70's
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 30, 2011, 11:49:39 PM
I was wondering:  Did they at least grade for an extra lane between the 70's

No ... that was part of the section opened in 1940, long before I-70 was planned.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 31, 2011, 03:05:21 PM
I was wondering:  Did they at least grade for an extra lane between the 70's

The section from New Stanton to Donegal was six-laned when it was rebuilt, with the outer lanes serving primarily as truck climbing/descending lanes due to the Turnpike beginning to enter the Appalachians at that point.  From Donegal to east of the Allegheny Tunnel westbound approach, the third lane alternates from side-to-side depending on the hills where it has been rebuilt, but grading wasn't performed to allow easy construction of addition lanes.

Outside the 70 multiplex, such around Pittsburgh, provisions have been made for a six lane Turnpike.  The soon-to-be-completed Irwin to New Stanton section will be six lanes and the new Allegheny River Bridge and approaches are six lanes, with the outer lanes currently serving as an Exit 48 lane drop going westbound and an Oakmont-Plum Service Plaza lane drop going eastbound.  The new Susquehanna River Bridge south of Harrisburg is also a six lane span.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on December 31, 2011, 03:48:33 PM
Between the Blue Mtn and Carlisle exits, they are currently widening to 6 lanes, and there is a 6-lane section open.  It's a little funny that out of nowhere, there is a 3rd lane in each direction, and then later that lane ends.  They are also straighening the eastbound exit of the Blue Mtn tunnel. I drove that way over Thanksgiving and I could see the grading.  AND, the Blue Mtn interchange is being reconstructed also.  The ramp will now go over the mainline on a new bridge, instead of going under.

The 6-lane widening of the first 11 miles of the NE Extension is under construction, and wider overpasses are being constructed on the Mile 320-326 section (approaching the Valley Forge Interchange).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 31, 2011, 03:58:48 PM
It seems as though at some point in the last 5 years (after a chunk of sections between New Stanton & the base of the Allegheny Ridge have already been completely rebuilt), the PTC decided if they're gonna rebuild from the ground up, to just go ahead and 6 lane.

Some of the overpass replacements between the Allegheny Tunnels and Breezewood that were in progress last August appear to be designed to accommodate a future 6-lane rebuild.

In addition to Irwin to New Stanton (which has been completed for about a month and a half - it's nice), and the Allegheny River Bridge, it's being rebuilt-widened to 6 lanes between the Warrendale plaza and about a mile-and-a-half west of the Rt. 8 interchange.  It's also been in the papers that 6-laning between PA-8 & PA-28 is on the docket in a couple of years.  (They should be starting to replace overpasses fairly soon to accommodate it).  A 6-lane Beaver River Bridge is also on the agenda at some point. (I do believe all this stuff is on the PTC website somewhere)

Irwin to Monroeville and Monroeville to PA-28 might be a bit farther off in the future, as both of those sections have fairly major structures that probably have some life left in them...  (I recall them getting major work in the late 80's / early 90's, I think....), Over PA-993 & a railroad in a valley about a mile west of the Irwin IC; and one spanning a valley and some roads about halfway between US-22 & PA-28.
I'm guessing a similar structure about a mile west of PA-8 is the reason they're not 6-laning that stretch the whole way between the Warrendale Plaza and the Butler Valley Interchange.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 31, 2011, 04:03:00 PM
Also, somewhat unrelated to the recent "conversation", but PTC related....
The Laurel Highlands Hiking Trail Facebook page has some pictures of the rebuild of the trail bridge over the Turnpike at the Somerset/Westmoreland County line:

https://www.facebook.com/laurelhighlandshikingtrail (https://www.facebook.com/laurelhighlandshikingtrail)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: billpa on January 01, 2012, 03:16:36 PM
Also, somewhat unrelated to the recent "conversation", but PTC related....
The Laurel Highlands Hiking Trail Facebook page has some pictures of the rebuild of the trail bridge over the Turnpike at the Somerset/Westmoreland County line:

https://www.facebook.com/laurelhighlandshikingtrail (https://www.facebook.com/laurelhighlandshikingtrail)

That's really nice looking.  The large lettering naming the trail is a very nice touch.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Duke87 on January 02, 2012, 07:05:05 PM
The tough question regarding six-laning is, what of the tunnels? Can't easily bypass the remaining ones. Simple inelegant solution would be to just have the road narrow to four lanes for the tunnels, but then you turn them into bottlenecks again. Could always bore a third (and fourth?) tube, I suppose.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 02, 2012, 10:33:07 PM
The tough question regarding six-laning is, what of the tunnels? Can't easily bypass the remaining ones. Simple inelegant solution would be to just have the road narrow to four lanes for the tunnels, but then you turn them into bottlenecks again. Could always bore a third (and fourth?) tube, I suppose.

I would imagine a bypass, if possible.  Many of the former Turnpike tunnels have been bypassed and they have been toying on and off with bypassing the Allegheny Tunnel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 02, 2012, 11:30:30 PM
I would imagine a bypass, if possible.  Many of the former Turnpike tunnels have been bypassed and they have been toying on and off with bypassing the Allegheny Tunnel.

I hope not. One of the "selling points" of the Turnpike originally was that the tunnels allowed the highway to be maintained a low elevation which resulted in much better winter driving conditions than was seen on the existing US 30 (the previous E-W route across PA) where it crossed some of the mountain ridges. Today, the worst conditions on the entire system–icy surface, fog, bad visibility from you-name-it–are found on the bypass of the Sideling Hill and Rays Hill Tunnels, east of Breezewood. There are times when that stretch has the only reduced visibility on the entire Turnpike, and not just in the winter.

Ironically, all of the proposed bypass alignments of the Allegheny Tunnel would see the actual roadway at a lower elevation than the roadway through the current tunnel.

But achieving the same thing for the other tunnels (Blue, Kittatinny, Tuscarora, and Lehigh) would be either be extremely difficult (to the point of being not feasible) or impossible.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 04, 2012, 12:31:37 AM
Bridge over Pennsylvania Turnpike to reconnect hikers with adventure (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/westmoreland/s_774695.html) - Greensburg Tribune-Review
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 04, 2012, 03:32:40 PM
But achieving the same thing for the other tunnels (Blue, Kittatinny, Tuscarora, and Lehigh) would be either be extremely difficult (to the point of being not feasible) or impossible.

I'd have to agree with that.  I imagine, even if all the sections around those tunnels are 6-laned, those will be still be 4 lanes for many years to come.
I wonder what would be involved with widening a tunnel to 3 lanes (other than the major traffic disruptions while construction is occurring)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 04, 2012, 10:40:56 PM
But achieving the same thing for the other tunnels (Blue, Kittatinny, Tuscarora, and Lehigh) would be either be extremely difficult (to the point of being not feasible) or impossible.

I'd have to agree with that.  I imagine, even if all the sections around those tunnels are 6-laned, those will be still be 4 lanes for many years to come.
I wonder what would be involved with widening a tunnel to 3 lanes (other than the major traffic disruptions while construction is occurring)

If the segments of the Penna. Turnpike leading up to the tunnel portals are widened to six (or more) lanes, then it might make operational (but maybe not fiscal) sense to bore two additional tubes through the mountains? 

That would allow (relatively) easy maintenance of any given tube (consider that the Maryland Transportation Authority frequently closes one of the two lane tubes of the Fort McHenry Tunnel (which has a total of four two-lane tubes) for maintenance in the overnight hours). 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 05, 2012, 08:16:45 AM
But achieving the same thing for the other tunnels (Blue, Kittatinny, Tuscarora, and Lehigh) would be either be extremely difficult (to the point of being not feasible) or impossible.

I'd have to agree with that.  I imagine, even if all the sections around those tunnels are 6-laned, those will be still be 4 lanes for many years to come.
I wonder what would be involved with widening a tunnel to 3 lanes (other than the major traffic disruptions while construction is occurring)

If the segments of the Penna. Turnpike leading up to the tunnel portals are widened to six (or more) lanes, then it might make operational (but maybe not fiscal) sense to bore two additional tubes through the mountains? 

That would allow (relatively) easy maintenance of any given tube (consider that the Maryland Transportation Authority frequently closes one of the two lane tubes of the Fort McHenry Tunnel (which has a total of four two-lane tubes) for maintenance in the overnight hours). 

Widening a 2-lane tube to 3 lanes would probably not be less expensive than building a new 3-lane tube.

They could build a pair of new 3-lane tubes, and close the original tubes.  The advantage here is that the tunnels would match the number of lanes of the widened 6-lane turnpike.

Or --

They could build a pair of 2-lane tubes, and incorporate the existing pair of 2-lane tubes into a 2-2-2-2 lane configuration.  The advantage here is that it would undoubtably have much lower construction costs than the first alternative.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on January 05, 2012, 12:51:55 PM
But achieving the same thing for the other tunnels (Blue, Kittatinny, Tuscarora, and Lehigh) would be either be extremely difficult (to the point of being not feasible) or impossible.

I'd have to agree with that.  I imagine, even if all the sections around those tunnels are 6-laned, those will be still be 4 lanes for many years to come.
I wonder what would be involved with widening a tunnel to 3 lanes (other than the major traffic disruptions while construction is occurring)

If the segments of the Penna. Turnpike leading up to the tunnel portals are widened to six (or more) lanes, then it might make operational (but maybe not fiscal) sense to bore two additional tubes through the mountains? 

That would allow (relatively) easy maintenance of any given tube (consider that the Maryland Transportation Authority frequently closes one of the two lane tubes of the Fort McHenry Tunnel (which has a total of four two-lane tubes) for maintenance in the overnight hours). 

The other potential advantage to the multiple-tube configuration is that it allows for shutting down one tube in the event of an accident or other problem. You still get traffic problems, but it's not as bad as when something happens halfway through a single-tube tunnel. If you've ever been stuck in the Allegheny Tunnel because someone has a flat tire (happened the last time I went through there), you know what I mean, but I'm thinking in terms of more severe stuff like crashes or an incident where the tunnel might be damaged. The extra tube allows them to maintain tunnel operations even if they have to shut down the affected tube. (I suppose again the Fort McHenry Tunnel is a fine example in that its opening allowed them to shut down portions of the Harbor Tunnel for extended periods for rehabilitation, and I suspect a 2-2-2-2 setup might allow the PTC to do the same thing with their existing tunnels.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 05, 2012, 08:14:24 PM
Auditor general says Turnpike Commission 'in jeopardy' (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12005/1201596-100.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Pa. Turnpike Chief Responds to Auditor General Wagner’s Claims of Financial Chaos (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2012/20120105171343.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 05, 2012, 08:30:55 PM
The other potential advantage to the multiple-tube configuration is that it allows for shutting down one tube in the event of an accident or other problem. You still get traffic problems, but it's not as bad as when something happens halfway through a single-tube tunnel. If you've ever been stuck in the Allegheny Tunnel because someone has a flat tire (happened the last time I went through there), you know what I mean, but I'm thinking in terms of more severe stuff like crashes or an incident where the tunnel might be damaged. The extra tube allows them to maintain tunnel operations even if they have to shut down the affected tube. (I suppose again the Fort McHenry Tunnel is a fine example in that its opening allowed them to shut down portions of the Harbor Tunnel for extended periods for rehabilitation, and I suspect a 2-2-2-2 setup might allow the PTC to do the same thing with their existing tunnels.)

Twin tube tunnels have the provision for temporarily closing a tube and maintaining 2-way traffic.  The approach roadways have median crossovers so that 2-way traffic can be handled in one of the tubes.

I experienced this once in the original Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, back in the 1970s.  It was late evening and it seemed odd, but with no real congestion.  FYI, that was before the I-95 tunnel existed.

I will grant that closing a tube on a 2-2-2-2 tunnel would not be nearly as impacting to traffic as closing a tube on a 2-2 tunnel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 05, 2012, 09:14:34 PM
How about what the Lincoln Tunnel does, 2-2-2? The center tube would normally operate 1/1, but can be converted to 2/0 if one of the other tubes closes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 05, 2012, 10:46:29 PM
How about what the Lincoln Tunnel does, 2-2-2? The center tube would normally operate 1/1, but can be converted to 2/0 if one of the other tubes closes.

Does the Lincoln Tunnel operate that way?

I thought that the center tube runs with both lanes in the direction of peak traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 05, 2012, 11:44:26 PM
Auditor general says Turnpike Commission 'in jeopardy' (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12005/1201596-100.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Pa. Turnpike Chief Responds to Auditor General Wagner’s Claims of Financial Chaos (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2012/20120105171343.htm)

This is disturbing.  If I was a holder of Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission-issued bonds, I would be more than disturbed, I would be angry.

Perhaps it's time to end the generous subsidies that the PTC passes along to PennDOT (and I understand that much of the money ends up going to urban transit agencies like SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County)?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 06, 2012, 02:00:08 PM
Perhaps it's time to end the generous subsidies that the PTC passes along to PennDOT (and I understand that much of the money ends up going to urban transit agencies like SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County)?

I agree.  Though I do believe the only way to to get that done is to repeal Act 44.
Ironically, one of the biggest (if not the biggest) components of Act 44, tolling I-80, was rejected because it would fund stuff other than I-80.  Instead, the Turnpike, which was self-sufficient, now has to give the state (via higher tolls from TPK users) money (a generous amount, as you put it) for stuff other than the Turnpike.

I get that the way things are let that happen, as I-80 was built with federal money, and federal rules apply to it that do not with the Turnpike.... But I have to say that this current situation -- and I'll admit to bias since I use the TPK frequently and I-80 rarely -- right now is BULLSHIT.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 06, 2012, 04:18:47 PM
Is it allowed in PA to ask voters to approve an incremental sales tax addition for transportation like in san Diego?  It is my understanding that Allegheny county has a 1% dedicated sales tax to finance the stadiums, that was voter approved, if so why not try a 1/4% sales tax for transportation?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on January 06, 2012, 05:14:38 PM
I get that the way things are let that happen, as I-80 was built with federal money, and federal rules apply to it that do not with the Turnpike.... But I have to say that this current situation -- and I'll admit to bias since I use the TPK frequently and I-80 rarely -- right now is BULLSHIT.

Well, as the Feds rarely give up power, the only way this will be balanced is if the Feds regulate the PTC as well.  Do you really want that?  IMHO, that would only make things even worse than they are now.

And, I'll admit to my bias as I use I-80 a few times a year and my dad uses it frequently while we rarely use the PTC and NEVER any transit services.  And, with the latest PTC cash-only increases, the next time I have to go between Bloomsburg and say the Philly airport, I plan on shunpiking.  Instead of I-476 to I-80, I'll likely take I-476 to US 422 (via I-76 and US 202) to Reading, take one of the Reading bypasses and PA 61 and PA 42 to Bloomsburg.

EDIT:
What about kicking out the idiots who passed Act 44?  Since they are most likely from Philly or Pittsburgh, it should be relatively easy to do.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 06, 2012, 06:15:18 PM
The standard solutions are already being thrown about:  raise gas tax, raise registration, raise driver license fees, etc.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on January 06, 2012, 09:43:51 PM
The bottom line here is that in Pennsylvania, as in most other states, politics trumps common sense!  :banghead:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: yakra on January 07, 2012, 10:17:39 AM
And, with the latest PTC cash-only increases, the next time I have to go between Bloomsburg and say the Philly airport, I plan on shunpiking.  Instead of I-476 to I-80, I'll likely take I-476 to US 422 (via I-76 and US 202) to Reading, take one of the Reading bypasses and PA 61 and PA 42 to Bloomsburg.
Careful your tires don't melt! ;) :D

I've wanted to give that a try, but despite being thru that corridor 3 times, I've only done PA662 &  PA73
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on January 07, 2012, 02:27:34 PM
In general, I am skeptical of pretty much ANY report that a partisan state auditor releases, mainly because elected auditors can and do use their offices and positions for political purposes. (It happened with Kentucky's elected Auditor of Public Accounts many times during her recently-concluded eight-year tenure).

But it looks to me like this report is more critical of Act 44 than the PTC itself. Sounds to me like the PA auditor general is trying to score political points by pushing for the repeal of Act 44, and pandering to the public sentiment opposing the toll increases.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Duke87 on January 07, 2012, 05:13:39 PM
How about what the Lincoln Tunnel does, 2-2-2? The center tube would normally operate 1/1, but can be converted to 2/0 if one of the other tubes closes.

Does the Lincoln Tunnel operate that way?

I thought that the center tube runs with both lanes in the direction of peak traffic.

Off-peak and on the weekend the Lincoln Tunnel and NJ 495 leading up to it operates with three lanes in each direction. During rush hours, one lane of the reverse-peak roadway is cannibalized for a contraflow bus lane, and this operation continues into the tunnel. So, you have the two outer tubes carrying two lanes of general traffic in their respective direction, and the center tube carrying a lane of general traffic plus a bus lane in the peak direction.

The Turnpike tunnels don't have directional peaking issues, nor is the Turnpike likely to be designed to have the contraflow setup NJ 495 has - so a three tube system would likely operate 2-1/1-2 all the time, with the option to close one tube at a time for maintenance or in case of emergency.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: goobnav on January 07, 2012, 07:25:04 PM
Yakra,

Thank you for pointing out Centralia but, as a native of NE PA, please don't make light of it. 

Yes, the mine fire is still burning and PA 61 goes through there but, it's not funny.  I suggest you take that drive there and you'll see it.

Non-toll alternates to Philly International not worth the extra gas and time spent.  Yeah, the tolls are high but, take into account the extra gas alone and it's not worth it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on January 07, 2012, 08:04:54 PM
Yakra,

Thank you for pointing out Centralia but, as a native of NE PA, please don't make light of it. 
Where there's heat there's light...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on January 07, 2012, 09:48:42 PM
The standard solutions are already being thrown about:  raise gas tax, raise registration, raise driver license fees, etc.

I have had a look at some of the recommendations from the governor's Transportation Funding Advisory Commission.  It does not state whether the fuel tax is protected from diversion (only that the Pennsylvania constitution prohibits use of the fuel tax for mass transit), or go into details on any state/local split that may be involved.  Pennsylvania however has a fairly high marginal fuel tax (32c/gallon, variously described as 13th or 14th highest in the US).  A graph on page 11 of the report suggests that about $5 billion is spent annually on transportation needs in Pennsylvania, broken up among various agencies.  A table on page 12 says that PennDOT's current funding from the Motor License Fund (its only funding source?) is $2.3 billion.  The Pennsylvania State Police gets $556 million from the same source.  (Why so much on law enforcement?)

The report presents a bottom-line scenario in which funding gaps are met at an added cost to the typical driver (from uncapping of the oil franchise tax, slightly higher annual cost to keep a valid driver's license, etc.) of 70c per week.  It does not, however, address the question of whether PennDOT (and other transportation providers in Pennsylvania) spend perhaps too much on lightly used roads and bridges which should be downgraded, load-posted, or abandoned.  It also evades the explosive question of PennDOT's total factor productivity compared to peer state DOTs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 07, 2012, 10:18:40 PM
Off-peak and on the weekend the Lincoln Tunnel and NJ 495 leading up to it operates with three lanes in each direction. During rush hours, one lane of the reverse-peak roadway is cannibalized for a contraflow bus lane, and this operation continues into the tunnel. So, you have the two outer tubes carrying two lanes of general traffic in their respective direction, and the center tube carrying a lane of general traffic plus a bus lane in the peak direction.

The Turnpike tunnels don't have directional peaking issues, nor is the Turnpike likely to be designed to have the contraflow setup NJ 495 has - so a three tube system would likely operate 2-1/1-2 all the time, with the option to close one tube at a time for maintenance or in case of emergency.

Routine 2-way traffic in a tube on an Interstate highway, would not meet Interstate standards, though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Duke87 on January 08, 2012, 11:10:18 AM
Routine 2-way traffic in a tube on an Interstate highway, would not meet Interstate standards, though.

Why not?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on January 08, 2012, 03:41:53 PM
Yakra,

Thank you for pointing out Centralia but, as a native of NE PA, please don't make light of it. 

Yes, the mine fire is still burning and PA 61 goes through there but, it's not funny.  I suggest you take that drive there and you'll see it.

Might be something worthy of a meet sometime.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 08, 2012, 09:50:22 PM
Routine 2-way traffic in a tube on an Interstate highway, would not meet Interstate standards, though.

Why not?

Interstate standards include having opposing traffic divided by a median, and with at least 2 lanes each way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 08, 2012, 11:25:35 PM
Yakra,

Thank you for pointing out Centralia but, as a native of NE PA, please don't make light of it. 

Yes, the mine fire is still burning and PA 61 goes through there but, it's not funny.  I suggest you take that drive there and you'll see it.

Might be something worthy of a meet sometime.

It was back in 2003 and 2004.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on January 09, 2012, 10:25:17 AM

Might be something worthy of a meet sometime.

It was back in 2003 and 2004.

Darn, hate I missed those.

Interstate standards include having opposing traffic divided by a median, and with at least 2 lanes each way.

The Thousand Islands Bridge begs to differ...

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6161/6173316660_435cafcb3e.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: goobnav on January 09, 2012, 11:58:10 AM
hb,

Pahighways has great pictures on that site from that meet.  I highly recommend checking them out.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 09, 2012, 12:38:53 PM
Interstate standards include having opposing traffic divided by a median, and with at least 2 lanes each way.

The Thousand Islands Bridge begs to differ...

It's not built to Interstate standards.

Given that the bridges and approaches include 2-lane segments in Canada, it could be argued that the U.S. segment is not really part of the U.S. Interstate system.

In any event, posting an Interstate shield on it does not mean that it's built to Interstate standards.  Using it as an example here is using the "argument by exception" logical fallacy.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 09, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
Are tunnels banned from having medians in them?  I see no reason why the center tube couldn't have a jersey barrier in the center.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 09, 2012, 04:51:50 PM
Debt Demands of Act 44 Could Hamper Turnpike (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12009/1202310-147-0.stm) - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 09, 2012, 05:37:49 PM
Are tunnels banned from having medians in them?  I see no reason why the center tube couldn't have a jersey barrier in the center.

I doubt there is room in the tubes for wide enough lanes AND a median.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 09, 2012, 05:46:45 PM
Are tunnels banned from having medians in them?  I see no reason why the center tube couldn't have a jersey barrier in the center.

I doubt there is room in the tubes for wide enough lanes AND a median.

The concrete median barrier is 24 inches wide at the base.  A Lincoln Tunnel tube could ill afford to lose 2 feet of roadway.  The barrier would also prevent traffic from moving around a blocked lane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 09, 2012, 08:07:01 PM
Are tunnels banned from having medians in them?  I see no reason why the center tube couldn't have a jersey barrier in the center.
You'd want to make sure to have what one might call "passing roadway width" on either side of the median barrier. Based on NYSDOT standards that would be about 21' or 22' - you can get it down to 19' if you ban trucks, but then you have trouble if one of the other tubes gets shut down. Not that it's a dealbreaker, but it makes it a lot costlier to construct, and might even be more than two smaller tubes. Quick math:
2 x 2-lane tunnels vs. 1 x 2-lane with median
Roadway box 24 x 16 vs. roadway box 45 x 16
Radii to box corners are roughly 14.4 vs. 27.6
Allow some tunnel wall thickness (say 2.5') to bring it up to R=17' vs. R=30'
Therefore bored areas would be 289 x 2 vs. 900...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 10, 2012, 08:46:57 AM
Perhaps it's time to end the generous subsidies that the PTC passes along to PennDOT (and I understand that much of the money ends up going to urban transit agencies like SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County)?

I agree.  Though I do believe the only way to to get that done is to repeal Act 44.
Ironically, one of the biggest (if not the biggest) components of Act 44, tolling I-80, was rejected because it would fund stuff other than I-80.  Instead, the Turnpike, which was self-sufficient, now has to give the state (via higher tolls from TPK users) money (a generous amount, as you put it) for stuff other than the Turnpike.

The plan by Pennsylvania's politicians to toll I-80 was never going to meet with federal government approval (and it was properly rejected, first by the Bush (43) Administration, then by the Obama Administration) given the wording of the federal statute that establishes the authority to toll existing "free" Interstates. 

Some (including, in particular, the unions that represent at least some urban transit workers in Pennsylvania) thought that the Obama Administration would approve tolling I-80 even though it had been rejected by the previous administration.  They were wrong.

The toll revenues have to stay in the corridor where they were collected and benefit the users of the highway being tolled - and clearly that was not what Act 44 envisioned - as best as I could tell, Act 44 envisioned I-80 as a cash cow, with most of the revenues diverted to transit subsidies and highway projects having little or nothing to do with I-80.

What nobody in in power Pennsylvania seems to understand is this - tolling I-80 and keeping the toll revenues to maintain, repair (and even upgrade!) I-80 would free up at least some PennDOT dollars which could be spent elsewhere.  Maybe not as much as the endless flow of cash that Act 44 assumed, but it would save PennDOT some dollars.

And from a crassly political perspective, tolling I-80 makes plenty of sense, because so little of Pennsylvania's population lives near I-80.  In that way, it's much like I-95 in North and South Carolina. 

Quote
I get that the way things are let that happen, as I-80 was built with federal money, and federal rules apply to it that do not with the Turnpike.... But I have to say that this current situation -- and I'll admit to bias since I use the TPK frequently and I-80 rarely -- right now is BULLSHIT.

Agreed.

I have driven on I-80 in Pennsylvania maybe once or twice - in my life.  I drive parts of the Pennsylvania Turnpike system more frequently.  <smile>

However, I agree with you that the current situation in Pennsylvania is profoundly unfair to patrons of the existing Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on January 10, 2012, 12:14:24 PM
^^^
I wonder why that situation has been allowed to continue.  As in earlier rants on the tolling debate, the political power in the state rests where most of the people are.   That is in the Philly and Pittsburgh metropolitan areas.  And, to a lesser degree (ABE, WB/Scranton, Harrisburg, Reading, Lancaster, Erie, etc.)

So, in theory, there is enough voter influence to do what the voters want especially compared to the sparse northern PA population.

My guess is that the Turnpike generates too much money to de-toll it.  So, I think that was part of the 80 tolling legislation, flawed though it was.

IMO, what should be done is that ALL interstates and other freeway grade highways in the state should be tolled and tolled at the same per mile rate.  Plus, tolls on any given segment could only be used on that segment.

Of course, at the present time, any tolling of a "free" highway in PA or pretty much anywhere is a dead issue unless new legislation is passed on the Federal level as IIRC, the pilot legislation slots are now filled.
__________________________________________________________________

On a different vein, the tolled turnpike vs "free" I-80 may not be fair.  But, there aren't many jobs in the I-80 corridor either.  Or, for that matter, in the rural areas along the turnpike between Philly, Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.  Which is not "fair" either.

But, hey, life isn't fair!  And, no amount of legislation can fix more that a fraction of that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: surferdude on January 10, 2012, 05:49:33 PM
Let us not forget that I-80 through Pennsylvania has the highest amount of truck traffic on any of the Interstates in PA.  Many private truck operators will drive around the turnpike since I-80 is free.  At most interchanges they would have to retool the ramps for toll booths and also staff toll collectors as well.  Start up cost would be tremendous and costly.  In the long run it would generate money for roads, which what they want, but at what cost.  I know when they changed PA 60 to I-376, the toll remained at Beaver Falls (Chippewa) to New Castle.  But in tolling I-80 there would be no major route that travels East to West that would be free.  Once they put the tolls on they are not going to take it off, and to me it seems once they get one interstate on there that that would grab the rest of the roads because people will drive around tolls.  Which there are major Routes to the South (I-68 and I-70) in Maryland and West Virgina and I-86 in Pennsylvania and New York.  To me this will take away from monies that the state will need, the traffic can and will go else where and with them people will travel around it.  I also remember they also wanted to introduce legislation to disband the Turnpike and have it absorbed into PennDOT, problem is with that is some of the Districts do not even have a part of the Turnpike in it.  They also where thinking of Privatizing the Turnpike, a lot of money up front but, that would only be a band-aid for the present and 10 years down the road there would they would need more.  Pennsylvania has a lot of bridges from the rivers, creeks, lakes, and streams that the road has to cross, unfortunately here we own a lot of the bridges, there are a few here and there that are owned by the county and even fewer at the municipal level. They are not cheap to fix and also maintain.  It is a quandry that many states are in because the cost of the economy has been horrible what is worse that many of the states rely on the gas tax, which because of the price of gas less people have money to go places.  I am not happy with the oil companies. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 10, 2012, 07:55:25 PM
At most interchanges they would have to retool the ramps for toll booths and also staff toll collectors as well.  Start up cost would be tremendous and costly.  In the long run it would generate money for roads, which what they want, but at what cost.

Didn't the I-80 tolling proposal involve only open-road tolling (ORT)?

…what is worse that many of the states rely on the gas tax, which because of the price of gas less people have money to go places.  I am not happy with the oil companies. 

Actually, the price per gallon of gasoline is lower today in terms of consumer purchasing power (IOW, as compared to pay scales) than it was in the 1950s.

Pennsylvania has a lot of bridges from the rivers, creeks, lakes, and streams that the road has to cross, unfortunately here we own a lot of the bridges, there are a few here and there that are owned by the county and even fewer at the municipal level. They are not cheap to fix and also maintain.

As a recent former PennDOT employee (District 6), I can vouch for that. If I recall correctly, PennDOT is responsible for more miles of local road than any other state DOT (as a percentage of total state road miles or whichever way one wishes to measure it). It's a crushing, both from a cost and a man-hours standpoint. I worked closely with the PennDOT maintenance units in each county. There isn't enough hours in the day to get everything done that they have responsibility for. I don't know how they accomplish as much as they do. (Contrary to the old days–and the old jokes–they actually work extremely hard.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 10, 2012, 08:08:34 PM
At most interchanges they would have to retool the ramps for toll booths and also staff toll collectors as well.  Start up cost would be tremendous and costly.  In the long run it would generate money for roads, which what they want, but at what cost.

Didn't the I-80 tolling proposal involve only open-road tolling (ORT)?

It would have been ORT (10 E-ZPass gantries at 30 mile intervals).

There were maps and an illustration on the PTC's page about tolling 80 before it was deleted.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on January 10, 2012, 09:29:18 PM
Let us not forget that I-80 through Pennsylvania has the highest amount of truck traffic on any of the Interstates in PA.  Many private truck operators will drive around the turnpike since I-80 is free.

Given the cost of fuel and time, is it really possible that any money could be saved by driving that far north out of the way to use I-80 for any destination that would be served by I-76?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 10, 2012, 09:33:40 PM
PennDOT employee (District 6), I can vouch for that. If I recall correctly, PennDOT is responsible for more miles of local road than any other state DOT (as a percentage of total state road miles or whichever way one wishes to measure it). It's a crushing, both from a cost and a man-hours standpoint. I worked closely with the PennDOT maintenance units in each county. There isn't enough hours in the day to get everything done that they have responsibility for. I don't know how they accomplish as much as they do. (Contrary to the old days–and the old jokes–they actually work extremely hard.)

There are 3 state DOTs that are responsible for more miles of local road than PennDOT -- TxDOT, NCDOT and VDOT.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: goobnav on January 11, 2012, 09:41:55 AM
On the road tolling is working, they just implemented it here in NC.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 11, 2012, 10:35:32 AM
There are 3 state DOTs that are responsible for more miles of local road than PennDOT -- TxDOT, NCDOT and VDOT.

Thanks for the correction/clarification. I knew PennDOT was at least near the top in that metric.

Question: For the three states you list, is that in terms of absolute number of miles of state DOT-maintained local road, or state DOT-maintained local road miles as a percentage of total road miles in the state? IOW, is that an absolute number or a percentage number? I can certainly see TxDOT being responsible for more absolute local road miles than PennDOT, but as a percentage of total road miles, not so sure.

Anyway, I don't want to get to far in the weeds (and I certainly don't want to imply a my-Pop-can-beat-up-their-Pop attitude). Jes' wonderin'.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on January 11, 2012, 10:56:29 AM
The other potential advantage to the multiple-tube configuration is that it allows for shutting down one tube in the event of an accident or other problem. You still get traffic problems, but it's not as bad as when something happens halfway through a single-tube tunnel. If you've ever been stuck in the Allegheny Tunnel because someone has a flat tire (happened the last time I went through there), you know what I mean, but I'm thinking in terms of more severe stuff like crashes or an incident where the tunnel might be damaged. The extra tube allows them to maintain tunnel operations even if they have to shut down the affected tube. (I suppose again the Fort McHenry Tunnel is a fine example in that its opening allowed them to shut down portions of the Harbor Tunnel for extended periods for rehabilitation, and I suspect a 2-2-2-2 setup might allow the PTC to do the same thing with their existing tunnels.)

Twin tube tunnels have the provision for temporarily closing a tube and maintaining 2-way traffic.  The approach roadways have median crossovers so that 2-way traffic can be handled in one of the tubes.

I experienced this once in the original Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, back in the 1970s.  It was late evening and it seemed odd, but with no real congestion.  FYI, that was before the I-95 tunnel existed.

I will grant that closing a tube on a 2-2-2-2 tunnel would not be nearly as impacting to traffic as closing a tube on a 2-2 tunnel.

You're correct, although the point I was getting at was the one in your final sentence. Among other reasons, stopping the traffic in both directions in order to clear the lane that has to be reversed and to ensure that nobody drives into the other lane is a major hassle and causes massive delays. Being able to close one tube on a 2-2-2-2 (or similar design) at least eliminates the need to stop the traffic going the other way.


There are 3 state DOTs that are responsible for more miles of local road than PennDOT -- TxDOT, NCDOT and VDOT.

Thanks for the correction/clarification. I knew PennDOT was at least near the top in that metric.

Question: For the three states you list, is that in terms of absolute number of miles of state DOT-maintained local road, or state DOT-maintained local road miles as a percentage of total road miles in the state? IOW, is that an absolute number or a percentage number? I can certainly see TxDOT being responsible for more absolute local road miles than PennDOT, but as a percentage of total road miles, not so sure.

Anyway, I don't want to get to far in the weeds (and I certainly don't want to imply a my-Pop-can-beat-up-their-Pop attitude). Jes' wonderin'.

I'd be willing to make an educated guess that in Virginia's case it's both raw miles and percentage-wise. Virginia has a tad under 58,000 miles of state-maintained highways, and those include many roads that in other states might be considered "local." Two counties maintain their own roads (except Interstates) for historical reasons, and the independent cities all maintain their own roads. There are also some other roads that are not the responsibility of any governmental entity; most often those are the responsibility of homeowners' associations and the like. At least here in Fairfax County, often when a planned community is built the street that leads in and out will become part of the "VDOT system" while the streets on which people live (which are often, though certainly not always, cul-de-sacs) are left to the HOA. My street is maintained by the HOA and gets paved more frequently, and to a higher standard, than the VDOT-maintained street that connects my street to the primary grid.

On the whole, I wouldn't be surprised to find that over 90% of the roads in Virginia are part of the "VDOT system," though I do not know the exact figure. I base this estimate on the fact that the independent cities are generally relatively small geographically, although I suppose it's fair to note that they often have fairly dense street systems, as do the two counties that maintain their own roads. froggie could probably quote a more exact percentage.


Edited to add: Found the numbers on VDOT's site. The VDOT system includes 57,867 miles of state-maintained roads: 1,118 of Interstates, 8,111 of primary highways, 48,305 of secondary highways, and 333 of frontage roads. There are another 10,561 miles of roads maintained by cities and towns, plus 1,279 miles maintained by Henrico County, 359 miles maintained by Arlington County, and 39 miles of privately-maintained toll roads. Total mileage, then, is 70,105, and the "VDOT system" represents 82.54% of that. So my estimate was a little bit high.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: dfilpus on January 11, 2012, 01:11:14 PM
North Carolina DOT maintains about 78000 miles of state-owned and maintained highways out of about 100000 miles of roads total, for a percentage of 78%. The rest are maintained either by municipalities or federal agencies, such as the National Park Service (the Blue Ridge Parkway) and the US Forest Service.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on January 11, 2012, 06:34:44 PM
I can certainly see TxDOT being responsible for more absolute local road miles than PennDOT, but as a percentage of total road miles, not so sure.

I think TxDOT is responsible for about 77,000 miles out of 350,000 total in Texas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 11, 2012, 09:43:31 PM
Twin tube tunnels have the provision for temporarily closing a tube and maintaining 2-way traffic.  The approach roadways have median crossovers so that 2-way traffic can be handled in one of the tubes.

I experienced this once in the original Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, back in the 1970s.  It was late evening and it seemed odd, but with no real congestion.  FYI, that was before the I-95 tunnel existed.

I will grant that closing a tube on a 2-2-2-2 tunnel would not be nearly as impacting to traffic as closing a tube on a 2-2 tunnel.

You're correct, although the point I was getting at was the one in your final sentence. Among other reasons, stopping the traffic in both directions in order to clear the lane that has to be reversed and to ensure that nobody drives into the other lane is a major hassle and causes massive delays. Being able to close one tube on a 2-2-2-2 (or similar design) at least eliminates the need to stop the traffic going the other way.

It's a lot simpler than that ... while traffic operates continually in the right lane, change the signals for the left lane to RED, wait for the lane to empty, then direct the opposing traffic to that lane.  Each direction sees GREEN signals for the right lane and RED signals for the left lane.



Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 12, 2012, 10:02:21 PM
On the road tolling is working, they just implemented it here in NC.

We got there a few months before you here in Maryland. <smile>

And north  of the border, Ontario got there with Highway 407 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407) as far back as 1997 (the provincial government sold it off to the private sector in 1999 (details here (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/2228)) under a long-term (99 year) concession).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 14, 2012, 01:53:40 PM
The other potential advantage to the multiple-tube configuration is that it allows for shutting down one tube in the event of an accident or other problem. You still get traffic problems, but it's not as bad as when something happens halfway through a single-tube tunnel. If you've ever been stuck in the Allegheny Tunnel because someone has a flat tire (happened the last time I went through there), you know what I mean, but I'm thinking in terms of more severe stuff like crashes or an incident where the tunnel might be damaged. The extra tube allows them to maintain tunnel operations even if they have to shut down the affected tube. (I suppose again the Fort McHenry Tunnel is a fine example in that its opening allowed them to shut down portions of the Harbor Tunnel for extended periods for rehabilitation, and I suspect a 2-2-2-2 setup might allow the PTC to do the same thing with their existing tunnels.)

Twin tube tunnels have the provision for temporarily closing a tube and maintaining 2-way traffic.  The approach roadways have median crossovers so that 2-way traffic can be handled in one of the tubes.

I experienced this once in the original Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, back in the 1970s.  It was late evening and it seemed odd, but with no real congestion.  FYI, that was before the I-95 tunnel existed.

I will grant that closing a tube on a 2-2-2-2 tunnel would not be nearly as impacting to traffic as closing a tube on a 2-2 tunnel.

You're correct, although the point I was getting at was the one in your final sentence. Among other reasons, stopping the traffic in both directions in order to clear the lane that has to be reversed and to ensure that nobody drives into the other lane is a major hassle and causes massive delays. Being able to close one tube on a 2-2-2-2 (or similar design) at least eliminates the need to stop the traffic going the other way.
What? You're not stopping any traffic if you need to reverse a lane. You close the third lane in the unaffected direction, then run a maintenance or police car through as the last car. Once you've verified the lane is clear, flip directions and open it to the affected traffic. That's really not a hassle.

EDIT: Yeah, what he said, but still run your own car through first.
It's a lot simpler than that ... while traffic operates continually in the right lane, change the signals for the left lane to RED, wait for the lane to empty, then direct the opposing traffic to that lane.  Each direction sees GREEN signals for the right lane and RED signals for the left lane.
Title: MOVED: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 14, 2012, 01:59:14 PM
As requested (or even before I saw the request), I split off the VA SR 7100 discussion to the appropriate Mid-Atlantic (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=4) board.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5948.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5948.0)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on January 14, 2012, 07:40:54 PM
I will grant that closing a tube on a 2-2-2-2 tunnel would not be nearly as impacting to traffic as closing a tube on a 2-2 tunnel.

You're correct, although the point I was getting at was the one in your final sentence. Among other reasons, stopping the traffic in both directions in order to clear the lane that has to be reversed and to ensure that nobody drives into the other lane is a major hassle and causes massive delays. Being able to close one tube on a 2-2-2-2 (or similar design) at least eliminates the need to stop the traffic going the other way.
What? You're not stopping any traffic if you need to reverse a lane. You close the third lane in the unaffected direction, then run a maintenance or police car through as the last car. Once you've verified the lane is clear, flip directions and open it to the affected traffic. That's really not a hassle.

EDIT: Yeah, what he said, but still run your own car through first.
It's a lot simpler than that ... while traffic operates continually in the right lane, change the signals for the left lane to RED, wait for the lane to empty, then direct the opposing traffic to that lane.  Each direction sees GREEN signals for the right lane and RED signals for the left lane.

I assumed that a tunnel today would have enough CCTV cameras to view the entire tunnel area, and provide the ability to verify that the lane was clear.

The original surveilance method was to have patrol officers stationed throughout the tunnel, at least enough to visually cover the tunnel area, and the ability to report what they see by telephone or radio.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 25, 2012, 08:33:05 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Some law enforcement drama reported at toll plazas on Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5715)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on January 25, 2012, 09:44:25 AM
I assumed that a tunnel today would have enough CCTV cameras to view the entire tunnel area, and provide the ability to verify that the lane was clear.

The original surveilance method was to have patrol officers stationed throughout the tunnel, at least enough to visually cover the tunnel area, and the ability to report what they see by telephone or radio.

I don't know what they do in Pennsylvania, but my assumption–which is based on my experiences the last several times through the Allegheny Tunnel–is that at least some of the tunnels on the Turnpike don't have CCTV cameras, or don't have full coverage with such a system. I've gotten stuck a couple of times in backups due to breakdowns and the like where it seemed like the authorities must have had no idea what was going on due to the length of the backup. (The most recent was on the way home from the 2011 Winter Classic when some woman in a #87 Pittsburgh t-shirt was attempting to change a flat in the right lane. I restrained myself from being the asshole opposing fan who would heckle as I drove past.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 25, 2012, 11:05:41 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Some law enforcement drama reported at toll plazas on Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5715)

least useful news article ever.

what's next? "EVENT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE OCCURRED." ?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 25, 2012, 01:40:18 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Some law enforcement drama reported at toll plazas on Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5715)

That's news to me as I haven't heard anything in the news about any crackdown, unless they are sweeping from east to west.

Quote
No confirmation yet, or official comment.

If the writer is typing this (and obviously thinking this), then the article should not be posted otherwise it isn't news, it is hearsay.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 25, 2012, 06:36:41 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Some law enforcement drama reported at toll plazas on Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5715)

That's news to me as I haven't heard anything in the news about any crackdown, unless they are sweeping from east to west.

Quote
No confirmation yet, or official comment.

If the writer is typing this (and obviously thinking this), then the article should not be posted otherwise it isn't news, it is hearsay.
Tollroadsblog.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 06, 2012, 05:26:11 PM
Pa. Turnpike Announces Completion of All-Electronic Tolling Feasibility Report (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2012/20120306101700.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 07, 2012, 04:46:53 PM
Pa. Turnpike Announces Completion of All-Electronic Tolling Feasibility Report (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2012/20120306101700.htm)

Peter Samuel is (in general) a fan of all-electronic tolling. His thoughts:

Pennsylvania Turnpike report on all-electronic tolling (AET) is favorable - proceeding with more detailed work before 'go' decision (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5796)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 07, 2012, 07:15:29 PM
Pa. Turnpike Announces Completion of All-Electronic Tolling Feasibility Report (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2012/20120306101700.htm)

Interesting comment in the AET report (linked from the press release you linked above) on physical page 39 (with emphasis added):

Quote
Additional interchanges would be much more feasible with AET due to the lower costs and reduced right-of-way requirements. New interchanges could be constructed to provide Turnpike access at interstates and other major highways which now lack a direct connection.

So AET on the Pennsylvania Turnpike would (potentially) anger the toll collector's union and property owners near the Turnpike's non-interchanges at Breezewood (!), Carlisle, Bedford, Somerset and Pocono.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 08, 2012, 11:53:58 AM
Not breezewood; the right of way was set aside when I-70 was constructed.  If it weren't for crybaby businesses, there would be a direct connection there.  The others, don't hold your breath.  The PTC moves at a glacial pace when it comes to roadway and interchange improvements.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on March 08, 2012, 02:06:41 PM
If they already have the ROW, what is stopping them? Surely a handful of business owners in an otherwise insignificant wide spot in the road can't have THAT much clout in Harrisburg or DC.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 08, 2012, 03:13:08 PM
If they already have the ROW, what is stopping them? Surely a handful of business owners in an otherwise insignificant wide spot in the road can't have THAT much clout in Harrisburg or DC.

eh, this is the state where Bud Shuster can rewrite the interstate numbering scheme.  I wouldn't put anything past anyone.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: bsmart on March 08, 2012, 07:49:03 PM
If they already have the ROW, what is stopping them? Surely a handful of business owners in an otherwise insignificant wide spot in the road can't have THAT much clout in Harrisburg or DC.

As a driver who has to navigate Breezewood on a regular basis I've always been interested in it.  I was told years ago that it was written into the Defense Highway act that a direct connection there was forbidden.  Maybe it is just an urban legend.

By the way when I was through there last week it wassurprising how deteriorated and run down the Breezewood area is.  many of the longtime 'fueling stops' appear to be closed, some even abandoned
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 08, 2012, 08:34:24 PM
If they already have the ROW, what is stopping them? Surely a handful of business owners in an otherwise insignificant wide spot in the road can't have THAT much clout in Harrisburg or DC.

As a driver who has to navigate Breezewood on a regular basis I've always been interested in it.  I was told years ago that it was written into the Defense Highway act that a direct connection there was forbidden.  Maybe it is just an urban legend.

No, the original Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 (a/k/a National Interstate and Defense Highways Act (Public Law 84-627)) did not fund "direct" connections between already-built toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the then-new "free" Interstates like I-70 east (really south) of Breezewood.  That is  why there were breezewoods along many of the toll roads in the East and Midwest, including the N.Y. State Thruway (a breezewood at I-84/Newburgh was only recently remediated), the N.J. Turnpike (there's a breezewood between Turnpike Exits 2 and 3 where there is no connection to I-76/N.J. 42 (and the ACE)) and the Ohio Turnpike (several breezewoods along the Ohio Turnpike were remediated over the past 10 or 20 years).

Quote
By the way when I was through there last week it wassurprising how deteriorated and run down the Breezewood area is.  many of the longtime 'fueling stops' appear to be closed, some even abandoned

Last time I was through there, I noticed that as well.  Maybe more people have decided to not patronize businesses at Breezewood?  I never, ever stop to patronize any businesses there - instead, I stop on the Turnpike or, even better, in Hancock, Maryland, so Pennsylvania gets less of my dollars.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on March 09, 2012, 09:07:15 AM
If they already have the ROW, what is stopping them? Surely a handful of business owners in an otherwise insignificant wide spot in the road can't have THAT much clout in Harrisburg or DC.

As a driver who has to navigate Breezewood on a regular basis I've always been interested in it.  I was told years ago that it was written into the Defense Highway act that a direct connection there was forbidden.  Maybe it is just an urban legend.

No, the original Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 (a/k/a National Interstate and Defense Highways Act (Public Law 84-627)) did not fund "direct" connections between already-built toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the then-new "free" Interstates like I-70 east (really south) of Breezewood.  That is  why there were breezewoods along many of the toll roads in the East and Midwest, including the N.Y. State Thruway (a breezewood at I-84/Newburgh was only recently remediated), the N.J. Turnpike (there's a breezewood between Turnpike Exits 2 and 3 where there is no connection to I-76/N.J. 42 (and the ACE)) and the Ohio Turnpike (several breezewoods along the Ohio Turnpike were remediated over the past 10 or 20 years).

....

From what I read, it was a little more complicated than "not funding direct connections." The original statute said that federal funding could be used to build a direct connection "to a point where such project will have some use irrespective of its use for such toll road, bridge, or tunnel." Apparently the FHWA interpreted this as meaning that if federal dollars had been used to bypass Breezewood, the PTC would have had to agree to stop collecting tolls once the bonds were retired, and the PTC refused. The PTC could have paid for a direct connection itself, of course, but didn't. The law has since been amended.

The only time I've ever stopped in Breezewood was at the McDonald's on top of the hill there on Boy Scout trips to Seven Springs when I was a kid, and that was a function of (a) I wasn't driving and the adults decided to stop there; and (b) when there were seven or eight cars full of Boy Scouts making the trip from the DC area, Breezewood WAS a logical place to stop to regroup to confirm nobody got lost or anything like that. Nowadays if I'm coming back down the Turnpike from the west my inclination is to exit at Bedford and take either US-220 to the Cumberland area (I-68) or US-30 east to I-70, simply because the Breezewood toll plaza can be a bottleneck. The one exception to that was last year on the way home from the Winter Classic in Pittsburgh. While we sat in a 15- to 20-minute backup due to the toll plaza, the number of cars flying Capitals flags and stuff and beeping horns in celebration of the win made it fun.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 25, 2012, 01:13:34 PM
Quote
By the way when I was through there last week it wassurprising how deteriorated and run down the Breezewood area is.  many of the longtime 'fueling stops' appear to be closed, some even abandoned

Last time I was through there, I noticed that as well.  Maybe more people have decided to not patronize businesses at Breezewood?  I never, ever stop to patronize any businesses there - instead, I stop on the Turnpike or, even better, in Hancock, Maryland, so Pennsylvania gets less of my dollars.

I patronize businesses in Breezewood every time I go through there, because it's an Interstate oddity.  Unfortunately, I don't live anywhere near there, so I've only been able to do this three times thus far.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 25, 2012, 06:59:24 PM

I patronize businesses in Breezewood every time I go through there, because it's an Interstate oddity.  Unfortunately, I don't live anywhere near there, so I've only been able to do this three times thus far.
Your username is very apt.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 04, 2012, 10:01:39 PM
I happened to notice a bill in PA's legislative system that would permit the PA Turnpike to increase its speed limit to 70 MPH.  No action on it yet.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2011&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=2119&pn=2949
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 04, 2012, 11:47:55 PM
Another PA Turnpike note:  The website for the reconstruction/widening from PA 8 to PA 28 is now up, the work is scheduled over 6 years, with many bridge replacements required for advance work.  It looks like because of all the bridge work, that the mainline widening will be split in half with one half done about 2-3 years before the other half.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 05, 2012, 09:25:24 AM
What this proves is that the standards a road was built to have nothing to do with what speed limit the state decides to set it to.
I happened to notice a bill in PA's legislative system that would permit the PA Turnpike to increase its speed limit to 70 MPH.  No action on it yet.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2011&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=2119&pn=2949
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 08, 2012, 11:12:37 PM
Update on the 70 MPH bill.  It has passed the House Transportation Committee.  AAA supports the bill and the Turnpike Commission is neutral.

http://blogs.mcall.com/capitol_ideas/2012/05/bill-boosting-turnpike-speed-limit-to-70-mph-advances.html

Quote
The bill’s sponsor, state Rep. Joseph Preston, D-Allegheny, said that he wanted to give authorities an option to raise the speed limit in certain areas, should they choose. He pointed to similar systems in Ohio, Tennessee and West Virginia.
Preston said that vehicles and turnpike facilities had improved since the legislature raised the speed limit to 65 miles an hour in 1995, and a further increase could only be a benefit.
Transportation Committee Chairman Richard Geist, R-Blair, said that though three legislators on the committee voted against it, the bill will likely pass.
He also said the increased speed limit might make the roadway more attractive to motorists. As it stands, he said, there is little difference now compared with the increased limit.
“If you go 65 on the turnpike, you’ll get run over,”  Geist said.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on May 09, 2012, 12:08:40 AM
Update on the 70 MPH bill.  It has passed the House Transportation Committee.  AAA supports the bill and the Turnpike Commission is neutral.

http://blogs.mcall.com/capitol_ideas/2012/05/bill-boosting-turnpike-speed-limit-to-70-mph-advances.html

Quote
The bill’s sponsor, state Rep. Joseph Preston, D-Allegheny, said that he wanted to give authorities an option to raise the speed limit in certain areas, should they choose. He pointed to similar systems in Ohio, Tennessee and West Virginia.
Preston said that vehicles and turnpike facilities had improved since the legislature raised the speed limit to 65 miles an hour in 1995, and a further increase could only be a benefit.
Transportation Committee Chairman Richard Geist, R-Blair, said that though three legislators on the committee voted against it, the bill will likely pass.
He also said the increased speed limit might make the roadway more attractive to motorists. As it stands, he said, there is little difference now compared with the increased limit.
“If you go 65 on the turnpike, you’ll get run over,”  Geist said.
All that, and one more note on "little difference" - compare time across the state on 76 versus 80.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on May 09, 2012, 08:56:23 AM
Quote
If you go 65 on the turnpike, you'll get run over, Geist said.

Baloney.  That is about the prevailing speed, and nobody has ever "run over" me while at that speed.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on May 09, 2012, 11:37:40 AM
Baloney.  That is about the prevailing speed, and nobody has ever "run over" me while at that speed.

in my experience, that is the prevailing speed only on the highly substandard sections of I-70.  on I-76, it is more like 72-75mph.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on May 09, 2012, 04:49:15 PM
Update on the 70 MPH bill.  It has passed the House Transportation Committee.  AAA supports the bill and the Turnpike Commission is neutral.

Hope it makes it out of committee. I've got a letter to my state representative ready and waiting to ask for his support should it make it before the full House. I agree, kinda, with Rep. Geist's comments, given I drive the eastern part of the Turnpike quite often. In my opinion, this probably won't raise the speeds the fastest people drive (assuming the Troopers keep enforcing at the same speed), but should give the slower people a bit more of a kick in the butt to drive faster. I'm not a highway engineer, but shouldn't everyone driving closer in speed be safer?

Edit: Err... okay, article said it cleared the committee. I was going by the current status on the PA Legislature website, which said it was still in committee. Guess I should send that letter.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on May 09, 2012, 04:58:08 PM
shouldn't everyone driving closer in speed be safer?


to an extent, yes, but at some point you'll run into waves of traffic with little room to maneuver.  (try getting around three cars, one per lane, each doing 55mph)

I don't know how close the speeds have to be before this behavior starts appearing.  

I don't think raising the speed limit will even achieve this.  I get the idea that the slow people will drive slow because they're oblivious and the quick people will be happy to receive fewer speeding tickets.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on May 09, 2012, 05:20:57 PM
The PTC doesn't need to waste money on new speed limit signs.  People already go that and then some, including our former governor and the trooper that was behind the wheel.

John Bowman, Communications Director of the National Motorists Association was on the Mike Pintek show on KDKA-AM (http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/05/09/what-does-raising-the-turnpike-speed-mean-to-motorists/) discussing the possible increase.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mightyace on May 09, 2012, 09:31:54 PM
What this proves is that the standards a road was built to have nothing to do with what speed limit the state decides to set it to.

Agreed, most of the "free" interstates are built to much better standards than the turnpike yet will still be 65.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on May 09, 2012, 09:47:54 PM
Baloney.  That is about the prevailing speed, and nobody has ever "run over" me while at that speed.

in my experience, that is the prevailing speed only on the highly substandard sections of I-70.  on I-76, it is more like 72-75mph.

In my experience, few vehicles travel over 70 mph on the east-west Turnpike or the NE Extension.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on May 10, 2012, 03:46:49 AM
Baloney.  That is about the prevailing speed, and nobody has ever "run over" me while at that speed.

in my experience, that is the prevailing speed only on the highly substandard sections of I-70.  on I-76, it is more like 72-75mph.

In my experience, few vehicles travel over 70 mph on the east-west Turnpike or the NE Extension.

I'd agree that along the east-west Mainline most are traveling 70-75.  On the NE Extension, however, it's been my experience that people move.  I've had my doors blown off many times on the NE Extension while I was going 80.  Was even passed once near the Lehighton exit when I was going 95.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 10, 2012, 08:38:24 AM
I travel both the mainline and NE extension frequently. I set my cruise control at 73 or 74 (because it's unofficial state police policy to only ticket over 75 unless conditions are bad) and regularly see vehicles pass me on both highways.

On the 3-lane portion of the mainline (between the Valley Forge and Bensalem interchanges) I regularly travel 80+, sometimes 85+ (although I would officially deny that!). I commuted for 10 years on that stretch, regularly seeing traffic fields travelling at 80+ even during the rush. During the rushes, the traffic alternately files and crawls. Off the rushes, many drivers travel at over 85.

On the NE extension, traffic is generally too congested from the mainline to the first exit (Lansdale) to travel very fast. And there's a long-term widening project along that stretch that has a temporary speed limit reduction which contributes to the congestion. Above Allentown (where I-78 crosses), especially, actual speeds are higher.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mgk920 on May 10, 2012, 11:51:22 AM
Baloney.  That is about the prevailing speed, and nobody has ever "run over" me while at that speed.

in my experience, that is the prevailing speed only on the highly substandard sections of I-70.  on I-76, it is more like 72-75mph.

In my experience, few vehicles travel over 70 mph on the east-west Turnpike or the NE Extension.

I'd agree that along the east-west Mainline most are traveling 70-75.  On the NE Extension, however, it's been my experience that people move.  I've had my doors blown off many times on the NE Extension while I was going 80.  Was even passed once near the Lehighton exit when I was going 95.

That was my experience on the Turnpike section of I-476 during a roadtrip a few years back, too.  It was the fastest sustained speed that I have ever driven.

Mike
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 10, 2012, 03:41:01 PM
I agree with qguy...the E-W Turnpike east of Harrisburg, I can set my cruise at 79, and there are several cars that are still passing me.  On the NE Extension, north of Lansdale Exit 31 and south of Lehigh Valley Exit 56, same thing.

South of Lansdale is too congested, and north of Lehigh Valley I seem to fit in with the cruise set at 74.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on May 10, 2012, 03:50:13 PM
On my last couple of trips on the Pennsylvania Turnpike I've felt like traffic isn't as fast as it was 20 years ago. But I also don't think that's unique to that road, either; the New Jersey Turnpike is another where traffic seems to have slowed (and not due to the roadwork, either, as I haven't used it since they began the widening project). I think I-95 in Virginia has slowed considerably, as the drive between the Beltway and Richmond used to be a raceway in the 1990s. No doubt part of it is due to ever-increasing volumes of traffic. On the Jersey Turnpike I think increased enforcement is part of it, as I almost never saw a cop on there until the mid-1990s (and I made it from Fairfax, VA, to Brooklyn in under 3.5 hours a couple of times in the early 1990s).

The thing I do like on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is that I feel like people keep to the right better on that road than on most roads I frequent, and they also seem more willing to move to the right to let faster traffic past. Of course there's not 100% good behavior in that respect, but I think on the whole it's far better than it is in Virginia or Maryland, for example.

(My comments refer to the mainline, BTW. I've never driven on the Northeast Extension, although I've been a passenger over a short segment near the southern end. Other than roadgeeking I can't see a lot of reason why I'd ever be likely to use that road.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on May 10, 2012, 04:22:30 PM
I should have noted earlier that I've only traveled the NE Extension from US 22 to the northern terminus.  I still need to drive 22 south to Valley Forge to finish the PA Turnpike.  I'm not surprised congestion is an issue as you head closer to Philly, and thus speeds are slower.  That's one reason I have yet to drive it and my travels never take me down that way.
 
The thing I do like on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is that I feel like people keep to the right better on that road than on most roads I frequent, and they also seem more willing to move to the right to let faster traffic past. Of course there's not 100% good behavior in that respect, but I think on the whole it's far better than it is in Virginia or Maryland, for example.
Pennsylvania interstates are generally well disciplined in that regard.  There's left lane bandits from every state, but Pennsylvanians aren't too bad in this dept.  Of course, I drive mostly in NJ and so Pennsylvania seems like a breeze to me compared to what I'm used to.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on May 10, 2012, 07:44:26 PM
Agreed, most of the "free" interstates are built to much better standards than the turnpike yet will still be 65.
Or worse... 55, like I-95. Seriously, the road is significantly higher grade than US-1 and US-13 (or hell, the Newtown Bypass, which has traffic lights!), yet all are 55? Thankfully, it's been my experience that the Troopers treat it like a 65 zone in their enforcement. I've had a radar gun pointed at me doing 75+ and haven't been bothered (at least north of 413, which I drive every day).

Oh, and I wouldn't exactly say the mainline Turnpike isn't worthy of a 70mph speed limit, at least in some areas. Yeah, it's not up to modern Interstate standards, but with relatively light traffic and extremely long sight lines, I think you can safely do the speeds people were doing before there were even speed limits on the road. Especially now that there's at least a jersey barrier in the median instead of nothing. :)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on May 10, 2012, 07:49:14 PM
I'd agree that along the east-west Mainline most are traveling 70-75.  On the NE Extension, however, it's been my experience that people move.  I've had my doors blown off many times on the NE Extension while I was going 80.  Was even passed once near the Lehighton exit when I was going 95.

Agreed. I've seen some extremely aggressive driving on the Turnpike (especially between Bensalem and the NE Extension). I don't drive the Extension very often, but I also see it in the more northerly sections when I do. I'm more than happy to let someone else be the canon fodder for any troopers who might want something to do, since I normally have lead foot anyway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Duke87 on May 10, 2012, 08:37:53 PM
This is silly. Why is the Turnpike special? Other roads in the state can handle it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on May 12, 2012, 07:26:11 PM
Snipped and quarantined all of the ranting about left lane driving. Let's get back on topic here.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 12, 2012, 08:09:46 PM
Snipped and quarantined all of the ranting about left lane driving. Let's get back on topic here.

While I agree that we got a bit far afield, how were my earlier posts about the PA keep-right-pass-left law, signing of such on the Turnpike, and the MIT web page with a state-by-state comparison off-topic? Did they not directly relate to the PA Turnpike?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on May 12, 2012, 10:06:46 PM
Snipped and quarantined all of the ranting about left lane driving. Let's get back on topic here.

While I agree that we got a bit far afield, how were my earlier posts about the PA keep-right-pass-left law, signing of such on the Turnpike, and the MIT web page with a state-by-state comparison off-topic? Did they not directly relate to the PA Turnpike?

That directly relates to "left lane driving" and driver behavior in general. Let it go ...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on May 12, 2012, 10:54:47 PM
The state by state comparison definitely got far afield. None of it is "news" either.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 14, 2012, 12:34:36 PM
On my last couple of trips on the Pennsylvania Turnpike I've felt like traffic isn't as fast as it was 20 years ago. But I also don't think that's unique to that road, either; the New Jersey Turnpike is another where traffic seems to have slowed (and not due to the roadwork, either, as I haven't used it since they began the widening project). I think I-95 in Virginia has slowed considerably, as the drive between the Beltway and Richmond used to be a raceway in the 1990s. No doubt part of it is due to ever-increasing volumes of traffic. On the Jersey Turnpike I think increased enforcement is part of it, as I almost never saw a cop on there until the mid-1990s (and I made it from Fairfax, VA, to Brooklyn in under 3.5 hours a couple of times in the early 1990s).

I-95 in Virginia between Springfield and I-295 north of Richmond has gotten worse for several reasons:

(1) The bottleneck at the Wilson Bridge is gone (yes, there is a temporary six-lane segment at Va. 241 Telegraph Road, but the WWB bottleneck is largely gone, which served as a "ramp meter" for southbound I-95 traffic);

(2) Growth in employment along I-95 between Springfield and Stafford County;

(3) A lot of N-S traffic funnels down to the six-lane segment of I-95 between Dumfries (south  end of the Express Lanes) and I-295.  At I-295, traffic spreads out to I-95 through Richmond to I-85 and I-95, and I-295 carries traffic to I-64 and I-95.

All of the above makes I-95 traffic terrible southbound on "getaway" days at the start of a holiday and some weekends, and bad northbound on "going home" days.

Quote
The thing I do like on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is that I feel like people keep to the right better on that road than on most roads I frequent, and they also seem more willing to move to the right to let faster traffic past. Of course there's not 100% good behavior in that respect, but I think on the whole it's far better than it is in Virginia or Maryland, for example.

Or I-95 in North Carolina.

Agreed regarding the Pennsylvania Turnpike.  May be due in  part to the relatively steep grades on the Turnpike East-West mainline, though the really curving and steep grades east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel are all relatively straightened now.

Quote
(My comments refer to the mainline, BTW. I've never driven on the Northeast Extension, although I've been a passenger over a short segment near the southern end. Other than roadgeeking I can't see a lot of reason why I'd ever be likely to use that road.)

I-476 has some steep grades, but not as long or curving (remember the "CAUTION CURVES" signs on the Turnpike?) as the East-West mainline.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 14, 2012, 01:14:02 PM
Quote
The thing I do like on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is that I feel like people keep to the right better on that road than on most roads I frequent, and they also seem more willing to move to the right to let faster traffic past. Of course there's not 100% good behavior in that respect, but I think on the whole it's far better than it is in Virginia or Maryland, for example.

Or I-95 in North Carolina.

Agreed regarding the Pennsylvania Turnpike.  May be due in  part to the relatively steep grades on the Turnpike East-West mainline, though the really curving and steep grades east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel are all relatively straightened now.

This may due to a small effect resulting from new keep-right-pass-left signage posted on the PA Turnpike (and throughout PA) about 10 years ago.

PA had a keep-right-pass-left law for a long time but repealed it (sometime 80s perhaps?). Sometime in the early 00s, I believe it was, PA enacted a new keep-right-pass-left law. The PTC posted keep-right-pass-left signs throughout the Turnpike system (and PennDOT did likewise on other PA freeways).

The PA State Police don't typically directly enforce the law since it's extremely difficult, but simply having new signage appear probably had some effect on those driving at the time they appeared; some residual effect may still be seen, I suppose. It's been a long while since I used to drive extensively in other-than-NE states, so I'll take the word of other observers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on May 14, 2012, 02:41:35 PM
Quote
The thing I do like on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is that I feel like people keep to the right better on that road than on most roads I frequent, and they also seem more willing to move to the right to let faster traffic past. Of course there's not 100% good behavior in that respect, but I think on the whole it's far better than it is in Virginia or Maryland, for example.

Or I-95 in North Carolina.

Agreed regarding the Pennsylvania Turnpike.  May be due in  part to the relatively steep grades on the Turnpike East-West mainline, though the really curving and steep grades east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel are all relatively straightened now.

This may due to a small effect resulting from new keep-right-pass-left signage posted on the PA Turnpike (and throughout PA) about 10 years ago.

PA had a keep-right-pass-left law for a long time but repealed it (sometime 80s perhaps?). Sometime in the early 00s, I believe it was, PA enacted a new keep-right-pass-left law. The PTC posted keep-right-pass-left signs throughout the Turnpike system (and PennDOT did likewise on other PA freeways).

The PA State Police don't typically directly enforce the law since it's extremely difficult, but simply having new signage appear probably had some effect on those driving at the time they appeared; some residual effect may still be seen, I suppose. It's been a long while since I used to drive extensively in other-than-NE states, so I'll take the word of other observers.

A moderator told us to cease talking about "left lane driving".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 14, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
Quote
The thing I do like on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is that I feel like people keep to the right better on that road than on most roads I frequent, and they also seem more willing to move to the right to let faster traffic past. Of course there's not 100% good behavior in that respect, but I think on the whole it's far better than it is in Virginia or Maryland, for example.

Or I-95 in North Carolina.

Agreed regarding the Pennsylvania Turnpike.  May be due in  part to the relatively steep grades on the Turnpike East-West mainline, though the really curving and steep grades east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel are all relatively straightened now.

This may due to a small effect resulting from new keep-right-pass-left signage posted on the PA Turnpike (and throughout PA) about 10 years ago.

PA had a keep-right-pass-left law for a long time but repealed it (sometime 80s perhaps?). Sometime in the early 00s, I believe it was, PA enacted a new keep-right-pass-left law. The PTC posted keep-right-pass-left signs throughout the Turnpike system (and PennDOT did likewise on other PA freeways).

The PA State Police don't typically directly enforce the law since it's extremely difficult, but simply having new signage appear probably had some effect on those driving at the time they appeared; some residual effect may still be seen, I suppose. It's been a long while since I used to drive extensively in other-than-NE states, so I'll take the word of other observers.

A moderator told us to cease talking about "left lane driving".

I'm definitely not going all the way down that road this time, BW, but at least this part is news, if a bit dated. Law repealed, law returned after big delay, signs went up, resulting effect claimed to be seen by some. "News," at least by the standard of many of the previous posts on this thread.

But not to worry, Steve, that's as far as I'm a-goin'. :biggrin:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on May 14, 2012, 07:14:00 PM
Hey, as long as it's relevant to the PA Turnpike, fine by me. Pennsylvania's KRETP law and its enforcement on the Turnpike are fine.

P.S. Your prior discussions are saved, and mods are inclined to bring them back as a separate thread elsewhere. Keep an eye peeled.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on May 15, 2012, 11:00:19 PM
Hey, as long as it's relevant to the PA Turnpike, fine by me. Pennsylvania's KRETP law and its enforcement on the Turnpike are fine.

P.S. Your prior discussions are saved, and mods are inclined to bring them back as a separate thread elsewhere. Keep an eye peeled.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6692.0
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on May 24, 2012, 10:24:26 PM
http://triblive.com/home/1858727-74/bridge-trail-state-laurel-highlands-hiking-trails-beautiful-county-pennsylvania (http://triblive.com/home/1858727-74/bridge-trail-state-laurel-highlands-hiking-trails-beautiful-county-pennsylvania)

It's by no means any major news, as the bridge has been open for 5 months now, but they had an official ribbon cutting for the Laurel Highlands Hiking Trail bridge over the TPK.  Only one picture, but it looks nice to use.  I'm hoping to use it sometime in the not-TOO-distant future.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 11, 2012, 02:28:54 PM
 Pennsylvania Turnpike getting less beautiful every day  (http://triblive.com/home/1899789-74/turnpike-rest-pennsylvania-ohio-plaza-stops-style-architecture-beautiful-building)

Not really "news"... Just an article lamenting certain aspects rebuilt sections of highway, and criticizing the service plazas.  All from an aesthetic point of view.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: BigRedDog on June 11, 2012, 03:26:13 PM
Drove to Somerset yesterday and noticed some road work going on and did some research. PTC is redesigning the access road at the Somerset interchange. I would say this is something that needed done as the area in front of the toll plazas near Waterworks and Laurel Crest Roads was not the safest intersection.

Apparently, this is somewhat old news, but it was new to me and I didn't see anything on the forum about it.

More information from the (Somerset) Daily American: http://articles.dailyamerican.com/2012-04-10/news/31321550_1_turnpike-traffic-turnpike-access-road-somerset-turnpike-interchange (http://articles.dailyamerican.com/2012-04-10/news/31321550_1_turnpike-traffic-turnpike-access-road-somerset-turnpike-interchange)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on June 11, 2012, 03:28:58 PM
I agree with most of that article. It seems no elements of PA's highway system, by either PennDOT or the PTC, are designed with aesthetic considerations in minde. Bridge piers, parapets, and railings (or lack thereof) are especially numbing.

One of the things I really despise is driving over some high bridge, with what should be a great view of the surrounding countryside (or uban landscape), and not being able to see any of it due to a high solid parapet wall instead of a parapet with railing.

The biggest contrast between the old and new service plaza buildings are that the new ones are a lot more spacious than the old ones. Some of the old ones were downright claustrophobia-inducing. But the new ones don't have much charm, that's for sure. They look nice from the outside, but kind of clunky from the inside.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on June 11, 2012, 03:32:35 PM
Drove to Somerset yesterday and noticed some road work going on and did some research. PTC is redesigning the access road at the Somerset interchange. I would say this is something that needed done as the area in front of the toll plazas near Waterworks and Laurel Crest Roads was not the safest intersection.

Apparently, this is somewhat old news, but it was new to me and I didn't see anything on the forum about it.

More information from the (Somerset) Daily American: http://articles.dailyamerican.com/2012-04-10/news/31321550_1_turnpike-traffic-turnpike-access-road-somerset-turnpike-interchange (http://articles.dailyamerican.com/2012-04-10/news/31321550_1_turnpike-traffic-turnpike-access-road-somerset-turnpike-interchange)


The term "free-for-all" used in the article describes the old configuation perfectly. It always reminded me of those large concourses you see in old photos or engravings, with traffic able to go every which way and usually doing so.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 11, 2012, 07:31:58 PM
Turnpike Crews Use Magnet Truck to Clear Nails from Road (http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/penndot-uses-magnet-truck-clear-nails-pa-turnpike/nPQtr/)

Just another unusual incident along this section of the Turnpike over the past year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on June 11, 2012, 09:13:17 PM
Just another unusual incident along this section of the Turnpike over the past year.

From my experience working with PennDOT maintenance employees, they and PTC maintenance crews don't need to be on the job very long to have seen it all. And just when they think they've seen it all, something beyond even their wacko previous experience comes along to prove them wrong.

I've seen more disbelieving headshaking…
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 13, 2012, 02:17:35 PM
http://triblive.com/home/1987360-74/turnpike-route-traffic-bridge-130-detour-east-fox-irwin-lane (http://triblive.com/home/1987360-74/turnpike-route-traffic-bridge-130-detour-east-fox-irwin-lane)

While an overnight closure isn't something I'd usually bother to post... I am intrigued at who came up with their official detour:
Quote
The Turnpike recommends the following detour for eastbound traffic exiting at Pittsburgh, exit 57: Route 22 east to Turnpike 66 south to Route 30 west. Drivers can re-enter the Turnpike at the Irwin interchange and follow signs for Harrisburg and east.
Westbound is just the reverse of that

Except for the drivers heading to the Irwin exit itself, It seems to be pretty dumb to drive all the way back west to Irwin on US-30 (and it's traffic signals), instead of just taking TPK-66 the whole way to New Stanton.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on June 13, 2012, 06:10:39 PM
I'm at Greater Pitt, GATe C-51 reading that now, thought the same thing
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MrDisco99 on June 13, 2012, 11:12:41 PM
The biggest contrast between the old and new service plaza buildings are that the new ones are a lot more spacious than the old ones. Some of the old ones were downright claustrophobia-inducing. But the new ones don't have much charm, that's for sure. They look nice from the outside, but kind of clunky from the inside.

I kinda hope they leave the Midway south service plaza building alone.  When it first opened, it was pretty special, but now it's just another crowded service area.  I realize it's slated to be renovated soon and could easily be torn down and replaced with a bigger building with a proper food court and cheesy postmodern accents.  Would be nice if they kept the building, though, as something historic from the original turnpike... maybe put a little turnpike history museum in it, or even bring back a sit down restaurant... something quaint for the road trippers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on June 14, 2012, 05:26:22 PM
I kinda hope they leave the Midway south service plaza building alone.

I believe they are keeping the original building at Midway South. And rightfully so. I think it's on the historic register. (Can anyone confirm this?)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 14, 2012, 07:56:09 PM
Driver Still Feeling Turnpike Tar Headache Months Later (http://www.wtae.com/news/local/allegheny/Driver-still-feeling-turnpike-tar-headache-months-later/-/10927008/14863440/-/tb7o9yz/-/index.html) - WTAE-TV Pittsburgh
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on June 25, 2012, 05:47:42 PM
Police: Truck Driver Hid License Plate to Avoid Turnpike Tolls (http://triblive.com/news/westmoreland/2077910-74/caughey-police-license-plate-steffy-truck-driver-tolls-turnpike-ezpass) - Greensburg Tribune-Review
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on June 26, 2012, 11:40:43 AM
^^^

I wonder if this sort of thing is going to become more commonplace as AET is implemented on the Turnpike (and other toll roads/bridges such as Scudder Falls). Maybe they should start doing what speed cameras do and take picture of the driver's seat of a violating vehicle. It might not necessarily help you identify the violator, but you could file it away should the violator ever get caught (and allow you to amend many counts of violations). I don't like tolls as much as the next guy, but damnit, if I have to pay them, you do too!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 26, 2012, 01:16:14 PM
Exerpt from PAHighway's posted link:
Caughey reported in court documents that when he touched the plate after it suddenly appeared, he noticed it could retract up behind the bumper. The device also was affixed on the trailer, police said.

Sounds like something out of the James Bond film Goldfinger.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on June 26, 2012, 02:25:07 PM
Did he find bulletproof glass, missile launchers, and eject-able seats too?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on June 29, 2012, 11:05:04 AM
 I see all the bridges over the NE Extension are being either rehabilitated or replaced using nice stone work on the retaining walls for the finishing touch.  I was on it two weeks ago and   saw all of it including the widening from Exits 20 to 31.  I am amazed at how many vehicles use the road  at first when you enter it from 276 and then when you finally get past Wilkes- Barre you have the road completely to yourself almost. Each of the exits along the extension take vehicles away from the flow making it that way, so it is apparent that this widening is mandatory.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on June 29, 2012, 01:25:05 PM
Widening the NE Extension was needed 20 years ago. It's long past needing it. The PTC is so far behind the power curve on adding capacity there (especially from Mid-County to I-78) that it's practically a crime. And at the current pace, it's not getting ahead of the curve, that's fur shur.

I drove the entire Extension (including the segment from Wilkes-Barre to Clarks Summit) last Saturday. Northbound in the morning and southbound in the early evening. It was choked to I-78, OK from I-78 to I-81 (at W-B), and virtually empty from I-81 to I-81 (uh, W-B to Clarks Summit). I don't drive the Extension north of W-B very often, but when I do I'm always shocked anew to see how devoid of traffic that stretch is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 12, 2012, 07:05:09 PM
Widening the NE Extension was needed 20 years ago. It's long past needing it. The PTC is so far behind the power curve on adding capacity there (especially from Mid-County to I-78) that it's practically a crime. And at the current pace, it's not getting ahead of the curve, that's fur shur.

Why isn't this an issue in elections for Governor of Pennsylvania and in the legislative districts along the N.E. Extension from I-276 up to U.S. 22 (since the PTC doesn't see fit to provide a direct connection from the Turnpike to I-78)?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 12, 2012, 07:07:11 PM
Speaking of the Northeast Extension, there's this about Exit 31 (Lansdale).

TOLLROADSnews: IC sign name in contention in PA (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6050)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on July 12, 2012, 08:23:55 PM
TOLLROADSnews: IC sign name in contention in PA (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6050)

I could actually see them changing the name of the interchange, though I think Lansdale should remain as the control city. It's not like they haven't done this before... the current Bensalem interchange was once the Philadelphia interchange.


Post Merge: July 12, 2012, 09:11:37 PM
Edit: Or the turnpike could just get rid of the interchange names entirely... which would drive my girlfriend insane. I'll say something about the 611 or 309 interchange and she's like huh? Hasn't a clue unless I say Willow Grove or Fort Washington.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on July 12, 2012, 09:20:13 PM
Quick note about this interchange...this was Exit 31 back when PA exit numbers were sequential, and this happens to be MP 31 on I-476, so the number didn't change.  When the exit numbers changed, the added signs stating OLD EXIT ##. 

They actually created and installed an OLD EXIT 31 sign at EXIT 31.  One of the BGS to the south may still have one...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 13, 2012, 12:23:16 PM
Edit: Or the turnpike could just get rid of the interchange names entirely... which would drive my girlfriend insane. I'll say something about the 611 or 309 interchange and she's like huh? Hasn't a clue unless I say Willow Grove or Fort Washington.

I hope not. 

There are many things about the Pennsylvania Turnpike that are deficient, but naming of interchanges is one thing that I like and respect about the (mainline) Turnpike system (I don't think that interchanges on the PTC's branches and spurs in Southwest Pennsylvania have names).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 13, 2012, 02:05:15 PM
Edit: Or the turnpike could just get rid of the interchange names entirely... which would drive my girlfriend insane. I'll say something about the 611 or 309 interchange and she's like huh? Hasn't a clue unless I say Willow Grove or Fort Washington.

I hope not. 

There are many things about the Pennsylvania Turnpike that are deficient, but naming of interchanges is one thing that I like and respect about the (mainline) Turnpike system
I agree.

Quote
(I don't think that interchanges on the PTC's branches and spurs in Southwest Pennsylvania have names).

Correct.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alex on July 14, 2012, 03:15:00 AM
Quick note about this interchange...this was Exit 31 back when PA exit numbers were sequential, and this happens to be MP 31 on I-476, so the number didn't change.  When the exit numbers changed, the added signs stating OLD EXIT ##. 

They actually created and installed an OLD EXIT 31 sign at EXIT 31.  One of the BGS to the south may still have one...

Reading this, I had to go back and look at my 2004/2005 photos of I-476 and sure enough, I found one with what you remembered.

(http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-476_nb_exit_031_01.jpg) (http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-476_nb_exit_031_01.jpg)

Sign posted along I-476 northbound, photo taken May 7, 2005.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on July 14, 2012, 05:03:05 AM
Nice. Double redundancy.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on July 14, 2012, 08:59:04 AM
That's the one!  AND...They have replaced some of the BGSs of that exit with Clearview.  I don't remember if they've replaced that one and/or removed the OLD EXIT 31 sign below.

But this reminds me of another question - that sign has always left a blank space for another destination.  I know that decades ago, there was a proposed North Penn Expwy that was either going to be part of a US 202 expressway, or just an expressway connecting the NE Ext to PA 309 towards the northwest. 

They are now building a couple of short two-lane roads, and rebuilding a couple of others, to build a connection from PA 309 near Souderton to PA 63 just west of this exit.  http://www.pa309connector.com/ (http://www.pa309connector.com/)

Anyone know what the blank destination was supposed to be?  Souderton?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 14, 2012, 09:31:22 AM
It's not like they haven't done this before... the current Bensalem interchange was once the Philadelphia interchange.
Guess on my part; the reasoning behind that renaming is probably in anticipation of the I-95 interchange being called the Philadelphia interchange when it's completed.

That's the one!  AND...They have replaced some of the BGSs of that exit with Clearview.  I don't remember if they've replaced that one and/or removed the OLD EXIT 31 sign below.
I believe one of the BGS' still has the Old Exit tab; meaning that any the BGS panel was replaced and not its supports.  Similar was done at the with PA 72 interchange (Exit 266) BGS' w/its OLD EXIT 20 signs left on.

As far as the redunant new/old Exit 31 is concerned; my guess is that Lansdale was originally planned to be redesignated as Exit 30 (the Mile 30 marker is located just south of the northbound exit ramp) but later reconsidered but the plans weren't updated to delete the erection of the OLD EXIT XX signs and/or the panels were already fabricated.

But this reminds me of another question - that sign has always left a blank space for another destination.  I know that decades ago, there was a proposed North Penn Expwy that was either going to be part of a US 202 expressway, or just an expressway connecting the NE Ext to PA 309 towards the northwest.
 
They are now building a couple of short two-lane roads, and rebuilding a couple of others, to build a connection from PA 309 near Souderton to PA 63 just west of this exit.  http://www.pa309connector.com/ (http://www.pa309connector.com/)

Anyone know what the blank destination was supposed to be?  Souderton?
My thinking is that it might've been Green Lane, PA 63's western terminus at PA 29.  If that was the case, the lettering should have been placed on the BGS from the get-go and if a new highwway link warranted a control destination change, do it then.  With the old 60s(?) era porcelain BGS' w/button-copy lettering (which also spoted a blank space above the Lansdale listing); it would've been an easy fix.

This also brings up another bone of contention: why is PTC replacing essentially perfectly good (condition-wise) signs (both at Lansdale and Lebanon-Lancaster as examples) that were erected in the 90s and possibly early 2000s w/new ones?  The older porcelain signs that those replaced lasted for 3, maybe even 4 decades in some instances.  The only difference I see with the new ones is just the use (both legitimate and non-legitimate) of the Clearview font.  An absolute waste of money IMHO

 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 14, 2012, 10:25:20 AM
Maybe they should make it Kulpsville to appease the town.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on July 14, 2012, 10:27:16 AM
What are the proper interchange names in the Harrisburg area?  I noticed that the I-83 interchange is Harrisburg Westshore, but the I-283 interchange is Harrisburg East.  Someone want to clarify why there is inconsistency with I-283 not being Harrisburg Eastshore or from the other standpoint why the I-83 interchange is not called Harrisburg West? 

I'm thinking that maybe they are both the same (either E & W or both shores),  but common usage has come into play and one is still called by the original name spite that the toll tickets say Harrisburg E and Harrisburg W. and if I am not mistaken the guide signs for I-83 read below the exit number as Harrisburg West.

Also the usage of Gettysburg Pike seems to only be used on PA Turnpike signs and not seen anywhere else along US 15 in the area.   I am aware that long before route designations were used, that might of been the original name for US 15's roadway, but what in modern times other than the PTC is concerned is that name used?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on July 14, 2012, 11:21:03 AM
Quick note about this interchange...this was Exit 31 back when PA exit numbers were sequential, and this happens to be MP 31 on I-476, so the number didn't change.  When the exit numbers changed, the added signs stating OLD EXIT ##. 

They actually created and installed an OLD EXIT 31 sign at EXIT 31.  One of the BGS to the south may still have one...

Reading this, I had to go back and look at my 2004/2005 photos of I-476 and sure enough, I found one with what you remembered.

(http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-476_nb_exit_031_01.jpg) (http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-476_nb_exit_031_01.jpg)

Sign posted along I-476 northbound, photo taken May 7, 2005.

You took all the fun out of my going out today to check this out :) . . . It is about an hour's ride from my house.

I can at least ride through the construction (which I have never done) and get an update photo if it is still there!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alex on July 14, 2012, 11:40:23 AM
Quick note about this interchange...this was Exit 31 back when PA exit numbers were sequential, and this happens to be MP 31 on I-476, so the number didn't change.  When the exit numbers changed, the added signs stating OLD EXIT ##. 

They actually created and installed an OLD EXIT 31 sign at EXIT 31.  One of the BGS to the south may still have one...

Reading this, I had to go back and look at my 2004/2005 photos of I-476 and sure enough, I found one with what you remembered.

Sign posted along I-476 northbound, photo taken May 7, 2005.

You took all the fun out of my going out today to check this out :) . . . It is about an hour's ride from my house.

I can at least ride through the construction (which I have never done) and get an update photo if it is still there!

Heh, sorry about that.  :-P I photographed northbound twice in 2005 and had not looked at those photos in years. PA-9 was a regular ride to visit family in Upstate NY when I was growing up, and I remember well those old button copy signs that PHLBOS referenced at Exit 31, and the one of the old Norristown Exit reference in the other thread with the removed US 422 shield and the "slapped-on" I-476 shield.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on July 14, 2012, 12:32:41 PM
Nice. Double redundancy.

I was thinking about it, but I actually think the double redundancy makes sense in a strange way. If you've got an old map (or just know the old exit numbers) and you assume that every exit should have an "Old Exit" sign, if you don't see the sign, you might get confused... even though the exit number is the same.
I have to believe that in some office somewhere, probably in a meeting room, a group of PTC employees had this same discussion :)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 14, 2012, 05:35:17 PM
What are the proper interchange names in the Harrisburg area?  I noticed that the I-83 interchange is Harrisburg Westshore, but the I-283 interchange is Harrisburg East.  Someone want to clarify why there is inconsistency with I-283 not being Harrisburg Eastshore or from the other standpoint why the I-83 interchange is not called Harrisburg West? 

I'm thinking that maybe they are both the same (either E & W or both shores),  but common usage has come into play and one is still called by the original name spite that the toll tickets say Harrisburg E and Harrisburg W. and if I am not mistaken the guide signs for I-83 read below the exit number as Harrisburg West.  Personally, I've never heard of those Eastshore/Westshore terms for those interchanges unless it's term used by the locals.

Also the usage of Gettysburg Pike seems to only be used on PA Turnpike signs and not seen anywhere else along US 15 in the area.   I am aware that long before route designations were used, that might of been the original name for US 15's roadway, but what in modern times other than the PTC is concerned is that name used?
With regards to the interchange names for I-83 and I-283/PA 283; they're signed as Harrisburg West and Harrisburg East respectively and have been signed as such for as long as I've been on that stretch of the PA Turnpike (my first trip on that stretch was on April of 1992).

US 15 (the Gettysburg interchange of the Turnpike): according to the PennDOT road map, the street name for US 15 is the "Marine Corps League Memorial Highway".  I'm assuming the original name may have been something along the lines of "Gettysburg-Harrisburg Pike" or similar.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on July 14, 2012, 06:18:16 PM
^^It seems to have been common practice (and it makes perfect sense...), pre-route numbers, to name roads after where they were going to.  Look at a map of the Gettysburg area that's detailed enough to show street and road names and you'll see York Road, Baltimore Pike, Taneytown Road, Emmitsburg Road, and so on - US 15 (or the business route) towards Harrisburg is, unsurprisingly, Harrisburg Pike.  Closer to Harrisburg, "Gettysburg Pike" would make more sense.  (Even in the town of Gettysburg, you'll find York Street, Baltimore Street, etc., on the streets that become those main roads.)  Gettysburg's just one example of this; it's just an area I know relatively well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on July 14, 2012, 06:20:36 PM
It's not like they haven't done this before... the current Bensalem interchange was once the Philadelphia interchange.
Guess on my part; the reasoning behind that renaming is probably in anticipation of the I-95 interchange being called the Philadelphia interchange when it's completed.

....

Although anyone heading to Philadelphia from the west who stays on the Turnpike all the way to Bensalem ought to be recognized by the PTC as a donor....
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on July 14, 2012, 07:17:50 PM
Quick note about this interchange...this was Exit 31 back when PA exit numbers were sequential, and this happens to be MP 31 on I-476, so the number didn't change.  When the exit numbers changed, the added signs stating OLD EXIT ##. 

They actually created and installed an OLD EXIT 31 sign at EXIT 31.  One of the BGS to the south may still have one...

Reading this, I had to go back and look at my 2004/2005 photos of I-476 and sure enough, I found one with what you remembered.

Sign posted along I-476 northbound, photo taken May 7, 2005.

You took all the fun out of my going out today to check this out :) . . . It is about an hour's ride from my house.

I can at least ride through the construction (which I have never done) and get an update photo if it is still there!

Heh, sorry about that.  :-P I photographed northbound twice in 2005 and had not looked at those photos in years. PA-9 was a regular ride to visit family in Upstate NY when I was growing up, and I remember well those old button copy signs that PHLBOS referenced at Exit 31, and the one of the old Norristown Exit reference in the other thread with the removed US 422 shield and the "slapped-on" I-476 shield.
Alas . . . they are no more.  Must have disappeared with the sign replacement.  Not affected by current construction. 

I also recall the Norristown sign you are referring to -- that was on the eastbound side, if memory serves.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 14, 2012, 07:42:25 PM
Although anyone heading to Philadelphia from the west who stays on the Turnpike all the way to Bensalem ought to be recognized by the PTC as a donor....

I live just off the Woodhaven Road Expressway [freeway] (PA 63) in Northeast Philadelphia. Whenever I drive eastbound on the PA Turnpike (say, from Harrisburg), I always stay on all the way to the Bensalem exit. Nothing else make sense from a time standpoint. It's quicker by far than any other way to get across the city on the northern side of the Philadelphia metropolitan area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Michael in Philly on July 14, 2012, 08:22:46 PM
^^The center of the city (I mean, the business district and so on, but this is true of the geographical center of the city as well) - the place most people would take a reference to "Philadelphia" as referring to - is considerably to the southwest of Woodhaven Road.

Seriously, anyone getting onto the Turnpike in Pittsburgh or Harrisburg wanting to see the LIberty Bell or do business at Comcast headquarters who looks at his toll ticket - if anyone does that anymore - and figures the "Philadelphia" exit is where he wants to get off is going to be going well out of his way.  That's all I'm saying.  Call the US 1 or (when it's built) I-95 interchange it "Philadelphia-Northeast" and Valley Forge "Philadelphia-King of Prussia" or something.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: njroadhorse on July 14, 2012, 09:15:34 PM
Regarding Exit 31, I think they could actually do one more thing to those BGSes. They could rename it to Kulpsville (which I dunno is a good idea or not), but they could also put another control destination on the sign as well. Every other interchange on the PA Turnpike mainline and NE Extension has two control points, yet this one doesn't. I propose that Montgomeryville be added as the 2nd control point. It is also a commercial center in Montgomery County, and the intersection of an important US highway in the area (202).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on July 14, 2012, 11:05:44 PM
Although anyone heading to Philadelphia from the west who stays on the Turnpike all the way to Bensalem ought to be recognized by the PTC as a donor....

Unless they're trying to avoid the Surekill...   :ded:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on July 15, 2012, 03:57:22 PM
Seriously, anyone getting onto the Turnpike in Pittsburgh or Harrisburg wanting to see the LIberty Bell or do business at Comcast headquarters who looks at his toll ticket - if anyone does that anymore - and figures the "Philadelphia" exit is where he wants to get off is going to be going well out of his way.  That's all I'm saying.  Call the US 1 or (when it's built) I-95 interchange it "Philadelphia-Northeast" and Valley Forge "Philadelphia-King of Prussia" or something.

Well, there is a nice little button copy sign eastbound at Valley Forge that says

Philadelphia
NEXT 5 EXITS

Of course, nothing on the ticket says that, though plan-changing is possible...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 15, 2012, 04:38:05 PM
Seriously, anyone getting onto the Turnpike in Pittsburgh or Harrisburg wanting to see the LIberty Bell or do business at Comcast headquarters who looks at his toll ticket - if anyone does that anymore - and figures the "Philadelphia" exit is where he wants to get off is going to be going well out of his way.  That's all I'm saying.  Call the US 1 or (when it's built) I-95 interchange it "Philadelphia-Northeast" and Valley Forge "Philadelphia-King of Prussia" or something.

Yep.

I've always wondered why the Valley Forge interchange wasn't named the Philadelphia interchange from the start. Especially considering that when the Turnpike was first extended to the area, it terminated temporarily at Valley Forge. From 1950 to 1954, it wasn't one of the Philadelphia exits, it was the only Philadelphia exit.

Actually I think the entire idea of giving the interchanges separate names is just silly. It might've served a purpose in 1940 but it's just confusing today. They should simply eliminate them. (The names, of course, not the interchanges. The Turnpike needs more, not fewer, of those. :-D)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 17, 2012, 12:02:43 AM
Ohio Turnpike used to (still does?) have names for its exits. Did the Indiana Toll-Road or New York Thruway name their exits?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 17, 2012, 01:53:26 PM
The Thruway does not officially name exits but the toll tickets use one of the control cities with the number (and highway, for major exits like I-81).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 17, 2012, 11:29:56 PM
Ohio Turnpike used to (still does?) have names for its exits.

I was just on the Ohio Turnpike recently.  Don't recall any names except on the ticket in the fashion of the PA Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 20, 2012, 09:22:03 PM
Bad news: tolls will increase again in January.  This time, E-ZPass users will pay 2% more, while cash customers will pay 10% more.

On the bright side, however, the annual E-ZPass fee will revert back to $3 per transponder.  The higher annual fee didn't stick for long I guess.

http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2012/20120720164641.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: machias on July 20, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
Ohio Turnpike used to (still does?) have names for its exits. Did the Indiana Toll-Road or New York Thruway name their exits?

The Thruway exits are officially named but they are not shown on any public facing signs or documents.  I believe Exit 26 is "Schenectady West" and Exit 25 is "Schenectady East". Exit 34A is "Collamer".  Exit 39 is "State Fair".  Exit 38 is "Electronics Park".  I believe many of the others are named by control destination.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 20, 2012, 10:44:11 PM
Almost $40 in car toll on the full east-west turnpike ??  Back in the 1970s it was about $6.

Toll-free alternate, Philadelphia-Pittsburgh, not that much longer, nearly all 4 lanes.

Toll -- I-76 --
305 mi, 5 hours 25 mins

No toll -- US-202, US-30, PA-283, I-283, I-83, I-81, US-322, I-99, US-22
334 mi, 6 hours 16 mins

[per Google Maps]
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 20, 2012, 11:21:37 PM
Almost $40 in car toll on the full east-west turnpike ??  Back in the 1970s it was about $6.

Toll-free alternate, Philadelphia-Pittsburgh, not that much longer, nearly all 4 lanes.

Toll -- I-76 --
305 mi, 5 hours 25 mins

No toll -- US-202, US-30, PA-283, I-283, I-83, I-81, US-322, I-99, US-22
334 mi, 6 hours 16 mins

[per Google Maps]

Yes it is frustrating to have one of the most expensive long-distance roads in the nation and not much to show for it right now.  If not for the proliferation of speed cameras on I-70 (and I would expect I-68, as there will be a project in Cumberland coming soon) in Maryland, I would say that would be the perfect way to save $10 each way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 21, 2012, 02:22:58 AM
Almost $40 in car toll on the full east-west turnpike ??  Back in the 1970s it was about $6.

Toll-free alternate, Philadelphia-Pittsburgh, not that much longer, nearly all 4 lanes.

Toll -- I-76 --
305 mi, 5 hours 25 mins

No toll -- US-202, US-30, PA-283, I-283, I-83, I-81, US-322, I-99, US-22
334 mi, 6 hours 16 mins

[per Google Maps]
Not to mention that I would probably just use US 22 from I-81 rather than up to State College and back. 22 is a pretty good road nowadays. Also, US 30 can get hairy - ignore the time that Google Maps gives you, it's often faster (and never much slower) to take PA 10 to 340. The only slowdown is in Intercourse, vs. the constant slowness of 30. (At least on weekends.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 21, 2012, 12:04:43 PM
Ohio Turnpike used to (still does?) have names for its exits. Did the Indiana Toll-Road or New York Thruway name their exits?

The Thruway exits are officially named but they are not shown on any public facing signs or documents.  I believe Exit 26 is "Schenectady West" and Exit 25 is "Schenectady East". Exit 34A is "Collamer".  Exit 39 is "State Fair".  Exit 38 is "Electronics Park".  I believe many of the others are named by control destination.
Any idea where these are listed?  Even the toll tickets don't use those!
I would have also thought that Electronics Park would be exit 37.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mgk920 on July 21, 2012, 12:05:42 PM
Almost $40 in car toll on the full east-west turnpike ??  Back in the 1970s it was about $6.

That is fairly close to even with inflation over that time.  $6 end-to-end in 1973 or 1974 was likely looked upon the same way then that we look upon that $40 now.

 :-o

Mike
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 21, 2012, 12:24:14 PM
Almost $40 in car toll on the full east-west turnpike ??  Back in the 1970s it was about $6.

That is fairly close to even with inflation over that time.  $6 end-to-end in 1973 or 1974 was likely looked upon the same way then that we look upon that $40 now.

 :-o

Mike

Yeahbut the level of investment in upgrades to the east-west turnpike don't really justify any increase at all, given that the original toll revenue bonds were long since paid off, and the new bonds for the east-west turnpike upgrades don't justify it.  The problem is that the bulk of the toll receipts are spent elsewhere from the east-west turnpike.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 21, 2012, 04:41:06 PM
Almost $40 in car toll on the full east-west turnpike ??  Back in the 1970s it was about $6.

That is fairly close to even with inflation over that time.  $6 end-to-end in 1973 or 1974 was likely looked upon the same way then that we look upon that $40 now.

 :-o

Mike

Yeahbut the level of investment in upgrades to the east-west turnpike don't really justify any increase at all, given that the original toll revenue bonds were long since paid off, and the new bonds for the east-west turnpike upgrades don't justify it.  The problem is that the bulk of the toll receipts are spent elsewhere from the east-west turnpike.


Truth. The 576, 43, and 66 tollways, and improvements to Turnpike 60, all seem to be solutions to a non-existent problem. The Turnpike should have been widened to 6 lanes entirely by now, and I-476/PA 9 should have been four lanes with full shoulders by now. At that point, tolls should have been retired if that was in the original agreement (this I do not know), and only the new roads should have been tolled. Fun factoid: I bet none of the other roads can support themselves on the tolls they generate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 21, 2012, 04:52:58 PM

Truth. The 576, 43, and 66 tollways, and improvements to Turnpike 60, all seem to be solutions to a non-existent problem. The Turnpike should have been widened to 6 lanes entirely by now, and I-476/PA 9 should have been four lanes with full shoulders by now. At that point, tolls should have been retired if that was in the original agreement (this I do not know), and only the new roads should have been tolled. Fun factoid: I bet none of the other roads can support themselves on the tolls they generate.

IMHO, the 576, 43, and 66 tollways, and improvements to Turnpike 60, were very worthwhile projects, but should not have been funded by revenues from the mainline turnpike (E-W and NE Ext) that should have been spent for upgrades and maintenance on the mainline turnpike. 

Even maintenance is lacking in many places on the mainline turnpike where sections are several years behind needed repaving schedules.  PennDOT's toll-free Interstates generally are much better maintained today than the mainline turnpike!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 21, 2012, 07:24:35 PM
At this link

www.paturnpike.com/geninfo/Final%20PTC_CAFR_11-10.pdf

is a PDF of the latest available annual financial report for the Turnpike. The revenues and expenses balance sheet summary is on page 28 of 137 of the PDF (page 22 of the document). It shows that in FY11 the Turnpike operated at a loss of over $523 million. The most galling aspect of that, though, is that $450 million of that is a transfer to PennDOT mandated by so-called Act 44, passed by the PA legislature and signed by then-Gov. Rendell in 2007.

IOW, not only is the E-W mainline possibly supporting the outlying toll roads, but the entire system is definitely supporting the non-toll, non-Turnpike road system Commonwealth-wide.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 21, 2012, 10:32:02 PM
At this link

www.paturnpike.com/geninfo/Final%20PTC_CAFR_11-10.pdf

is a PDF of the latest available annual financial report for the Turnpike. The revenues and expenses balance sheet summary is on page 28 of 137 of the PDF (page 22 of the document). It shows that in FY11 the Turnpike operated at a loss of over $523 million. The most galling aspect of that, though, is that $450 million of that is a transfer to PennDOT mandated by so-called Act 44, passed by the PA legislature and signed by then-Gov. Rendell in 2007.

IOW, not only is the E-W mainline possibly supporting the outlying toll roads, but the entire system is definitely supporting the non-toll, non-Turnpike road system Commonwealth-wide.

"In FY2011 the Penn Pike had revenues (almost entirely tolls) of $759m, operating costs of $360m, depreciation of $281m for an operating income of $117m. However it had interest expenses on borrowings of $333m and legislated payments to the state DOT under Act 44 of $450m. Net losses were $523m, which the state auditor general has said are putting the Commission on the road to certain bankruptcy."

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6076
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Scott5114 on July 22, 2012, 09:55:08 AM

Truth. The 576, 43, and 66 tollways, and improvements to Turnpike 60, all seem to be solutions to a non-existent problem. The Turnpike should have been widened to 6 lanes entirely by now, and I-476/PA 9 should have been four lanes with full shoulders by now. At that point, tolls should have been retired if that was in the original agreement (this I do not know), and only the new roads should have been tolled. Fun factoid: I bet none of the other roads can support themselves on the tolls they generate.

IMHO, the 576, 43, and 66 tollways, and improvements to Turnpike 60, were very worthwhile projects, but should not have been funded by revenues from the mainline turnpike (E-W and NE Ext) that should have been spent for upgrades and maintenance on the mainline turnpike. 

In Oklahoma, OTA calls this practice "cross-pledging". A few of Oklahoma's 10 turnpikes cannot sustain themselves, and instead leach money from the more popular turnpikes (mostly the Will Rogers and the Turner, which both carry I-44). Cross-pledging has come in handy to build badly needed but unprofitable ventures when ODOT was too broke to do it, like the Cherokee Turnpike, which bypasses a dangerous winding section of old SH 33 (this highway is now Scenic US 412). Since it's a rural area that doesn't really have much thru traffic (other than maybe Tulsa—NW AR traffic), the Cherokee probably wouldn't have justified itself on revenue alone. Unfortunately cross-pledging has also led to stupid pork projects like the Chickasaw Turnpike.

So whether cross-pledging is a good idea or not depends on whether you think the means justify the ends of getting some expensive projects done on the toll authority's dime instead of the taxpayer's.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NJRoadfan on July 22, 2012, 01:30:42 PM
Remember that in NJ, the New Jersey Highway Authority (ran Garden State Parkway) couldn't support itself. Not because it didn't have enough volume, but because raising tolls was politically unpopular. So they merged it with the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, which happened to have a toll road that could subsidize the low Parkway tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2012, 02:44:37 PM

Truth. The 576, 43, and 66 tollways, and improvements to Turnpike 60, all seem to be solutions to a non-existent problem. The Turnpike should have been widened to 6 lanes entirely by now, and I-476/PA 9 should have been four lanes with full shoulders by now. At that point, tolls should have been retired if that was in the original agreement (this I do not know), and only the new roads should have been tolled. Fun factoid: I bet none of the other roads can support themselves on the tolls they generate.

IMHO, the 576, 43, and 66 tollways, and improvements to Turnpike 60, were very worthwhile projects, but should not have been funded by revenues from the mainline turnpike (E-W and NE Ext) that should have been spent for upgrades and maintenance on the mainline turnpike. 

In Oklahoma, OTA calls this practice "cross-pledging". A few of Oklahoma's 10 turnpikes cannot sustain themselves, and instead leach money from the more popular turnpikes (mostly the Will Rogers and the Turner, which both carry I-44). Cross-pledging has come in handy to build badly needed but unprofitable ventures when ODOT was too broke to do it, like the Cherokee Turnpike, which bypasses a dangerous winding section of old SH 33 (this highway is now Scenic US 412). Since it's a rural area that doesn't really have much thru traffic (other than maybe Tulsa—NW AR traffic), the Cherokee probably wouldn't have justified itself on revenue alone. Unfortunately cross-pledging has also led to stupid pork projects like the Chickasaw Turnpike.

So whether cross-pledging is a good idea or not depends on whether you think the means justify the ends of getting some expensive projects done on the toll authority's dime instead of the taxpayer's.

In Maryland, the MdTA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Transportation_Authority) (the state toll road and toll crossing agency) puts all revenue in one "basket," and the bonds it sells have recourse against that "basket" of tolls.  At least since the MdTA was created in the early 1970's, that's the way that toll road and toll crossing bonds have been pledged (it might have been different in the years prior to that).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
IOW, not only is the E-W mainline possibly supporting the outlying toll roads, but the entire system is definitely supporting the non-toll, non-Turnpike road system Commonwealth-wide.

Don't a lot of those diverted toll revenues end up in the wage and benefit package that is paid to hourly transit workers - in particular the employees of SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 22, 2012, 03:27:19 PM
Remember that in NJ, the New Jersey Highway Authority (ran Garden State Parkway) couldn't support itself. Not because it didn't have enough volume, but because raising tolls was politically unpopular. So they merged it with the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, which happened to have a toll road that could subsidize the low Parkway tolls.
That explains why the NJHA was so shoddy - the NJTA is still trying to bring the Parkway up to speed with the Turnpike over 10 years later. Anyway, now the NJTA seems to have figured out how to raise Parkway tolls. And if 75-cent directional tolls ($1.50 every other plaza) seems like a jump from 35 cents, well the tolls started at 25 cents in the 50s. Suddenly, not so bad?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on July 22, 2012, 09:24:14 PM
The Thruway exits are officially named but they are not shown on any public facing signs or documents.  I believe Exit 26 is "Schenectady West" and Exit 25 is "Schenectady East". Exit 34A is "Collamer".  Exit 39 is "State Fair".  Exit 38 is "Electronics Park".  I believe many of the others are named by control destination.
Any idea where these are listed?  Even the toll tickets don't use those!
I would have also thought that Electronics Park would be exit 37.

Well, make your own list! What would you name them? I've thought about that before.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: machias on July 22, 2012, 09:45:07 PM
Ohio Turnpike used to (still does?) have names for its exits. Did the Indiana Toll-Road or New York Thruway name their exits?

The Thruway exits are officially named but they are not shown on any public facing signs or documents.  I believe Exit 26 is "Schenectady West" and Exit 25 is "Schenectady East". Exit 34A is "Collamer".  Exit 39 is "State Fair".  Exit 38 is "Electronics Park".  I believe many of the others are named by control destination.
Any idea where these are listed?  Even the toll tickets don't use those!
I would have also thought that Electronics Park would be exit 37.

My bad, Exit 37 is Electronics Park, not Exit 38.   I think Exit 38 is just called Liverpool.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 23, 2012, 12:36:40 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike chooses HNTB to manage move to AET/cashless tolling (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6076)

Quote
2012-07-20: The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission announced today that HNTB had been selected after a competitive procurement to manage conversion of the Turnpike system to all-electronic tolling (AET.)

Quote
The Turnpike in a statement today said that AET "offers numerous advantages to motorists and the agency, including enhanced safety, a cleaner environment, improved customer convenience and operational efficiencies."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 23, 2012, 12:38:07 PM

I guess that we can't take that news seriously, then?

 :spin:

OTOH, even a duffer will nail one every now and then.

 :cool:

Mike

Cashless tolling is (finally) starting to catch on in a big way, though it has taken a while.  California has had it for years on I-15 in San Diego County and on Ca. 91 in Orange County; and Ontario has had it from the start on Highway 407. 

But Florida has converted two toll roads in South Florida to cashless; NYMTA Bridge and Tunnel is going in the direction of cashless at the Henry Hudson Bridge; there is at least one cashless toll highway in Texas; the HOV/Toll lanes on I-85 in Georgia are all-electronic toll collection; and now we have the ICC in Maryland and the Tri-Ex in North Carolina open with no cash accepted.

The HOV/Toll lanes on I-495 in Virginia will not be accepting any cash either.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission announced quite a few months ago that it was going to study a transition to cashless toll collection.

TOLLROADSNews has (accurately) reported about all of the above.  Even if some people at FHWA don't like its editor.  And if he gets something wrong (and sometimes he does), he appreciates corrections.

All-electronic tolls are definitely the future - it is expensive to handle that much cash.  I have watched cash being picked-up at two toll facilities over the years, and it is a labor-intensive and expensive process to collect, count, transport and account for all of that money. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 23, 2012, 01:41:54 PM
Isn't the NJ Turnpike planning to go all-electronic in a decade?

The problem with all-electronic is that non-locals are effectively barred from the toll roads, especially if you're driving a car registered to someone else or don't want to pay the bill-by-plate "fee" (it's high enough to be extortion of non-locals in every jurisdiction that has it).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 23, 2012, 03:09:37 PM
Isn't the NJ Turnpike planning to go all-electronic in a decade?

I think the intentions are for the N.J. Turnpike Authority to convert the  Garden State Parkway to cashless first.  Maybe because it handles less out-of-state traffic (and the northern portion does not allow trucks)?

Quote
The problem with all-electronic is that non-locals are effectively barred from the toll roads, especially if you're driving a car registered to someone else or don't want to pay the bill-by-plate "fee" (it's high enough to be extortion of non-locals in every jurisdiction that has it).

Hence E-ZPass, which is issued by a lot of states in the East, and will be expanding south to include North Carolina in the near future.

Rental car companies are now equipping their vehicles with toll transponders (at least in E-ZPass territory) to avoid the high charges associated with toll-by-plate.

But speaking of non-locals, the bigger outrage (in my opinion) is electronic toll discounts granted only to in-state vehicles.  That should be forbidden by federal law.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on July 23, 2012, 06:07:47 PM
Isn't the NJ Turnpike planning to go all-electronic in a decade?

The problem with all-electronic is that non-locals are effectively barred from the toll roads, especially if you're driving a car registered to someone else or don't want to pay the bill-by-plate "fee" (it's high enough to be extortion of non-locals in every jurisdiction that has it).

Also, for a truly all-electronic toll system, you'd have to actually prevent cash payers from using the road. As we know, cash is legal tender for all debts; anyone who finds his way onto the toll road thereby incurs a debt to the tolling authority, and therefore has the option to satisfy that debt with cash. But if there were, say, a gate that only opens upon receipt of an electronic payment, you would prevent cash payers from getting onto the road in the first place and prevent that debt from being incurred.

(It's the same as buying something from a web site that only accepts credit cards. If you don't have a credit card, you don't get to have the item, and therefore you have no debt. But on the other hand–and this has happened to a friend of mine–say you try to check out of a hotel and are told they don't accept cash. They would thus waive their right to collect on the debt, because you have already used the service and can expect to pay for it using cash.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 23, 2012, 08:04:52 PM
Isn't the NJ Turnpike planning to go all-electronic in a decade?

The problem with all-electronic is that non-locals are effectively barred from the toll roads, especially if you're driving a car registered to someone else or don't want to pay the bill-by-plate "fee" (it's high enough to be extortion of non-locals in every jurisdiction that has it).

* The NJ Turnpike is planning to do just that, but of course the toll union will continue to have a say. Part of the plan may be to move toll takers into other positions as they become available, but I can't see that as a workable process due to the timeframe involved.
* I would imagine the Parkway would go AET first because it can be done on a plaza-specific basis. In fact, it may go one interchange at a time. Interchange "6A" (US 130) is another low-hanging fruit on the Turnpike system. Otherwise, the rest of the Turnpike probably goes at the same time.
* Chicago area has the highest non-tag AET fees I've seen - double the toll rate for billing. Other agencies have the fee as low as 25% to 30% above the tag rate. Right now E-ZPass discounts are in the 20% to 25% range, so this certainly doesn't seem onerous like you imply.
* Regarding the owner being billed regardless of who drives - the same thing happens with photo enforcement of speed and red lights. Up to the owner to collect from the driver. That's established enough now that I don't think it will pose a stumbling block.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 24, 2012, 10:23:09 AM
Isn't the NJ Turnpike planning to go all-electronic in a decade?

The problem with all-electronic is that non-locals are effectively barred from the toll roads, especially if you're driving a car registered to someone else or don't want to pay the bill-by-plate "fee" (it's high enough to be extortion of non-locals in every jurisdiction that has it).

Also, for a truly all-electronic toll system, you'd have to actually prevent cash payers from using the road. As we know, cash is legal tender for all debts; anyone who finds his way onto the toll road thereby incurs a debt to the tolling authority, and therefore has the option to satisfy that debt with cash. But if there were, say, a gate that only opens upon receipt of an electronic payment, you would prevent cash payers from getting onto the road in the first place and prevent that debt from being incurred.

(It's the same as buying something from a web site that only accepts credit cards. If you don't have a credit card, you don't get to have the item, and therefore you have no debt. But on the other hand–and this has happened to a friend of mine–say you try to check out of a hotel and are told they don't accept cash. They would thus waive their right to collect on the debt, because you have already used the service and can expect to pay for it using cash.

You are certainly permitted to pay your toll with cash.  When you receive your bill, you can go to the authority's headquarters and pay with cash at that time.  You are also not required to use the toll way.  If you don't want to pay the toll, you are welcome to find another route.  It may not be as fast, and it may take you 3 times as long, but no one is forcing you to use a toll road.

As for open-road tolling, my first experience with it without the proper tag was in South Florida.  I went thru 3 toll points.  About 45 days later, I was sent the bill showing one of the pictures, 3 tolls for $1.00 each, and a $2.50 service charge.  All in all, I paid $5.50 for 3 tolls, which from the area where I live, seems like a bargain!

On the website that I was provided to view the images, they were amazingly clear.  2 of the pics were the front of the vehicle (since NJ has front tags). I could easily see inside the vehicle.  It makes me wonder what people see going on in the vehicles!!!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 24, 2012, 11:28:30 AM
Hence E-ZPass, which is issued by a lot of states in the East, and will be expanding south to include North Carolina in the near future.
E-ZPass wouldn't help me in Texas, Kansas, California, Ontario, Quebec, or anywhere else outside of the E-ZPass system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on July 24, 2012, 12:12:28 PM
Hence E-ZPass, which is issued by a lot of states in the East, and will be expanding south to include North Carolina in the near future.
E-ZPass wouldn't help me in Texas, Kansas, California, Ontario, Quebec, or anywhere else outside of the E-ZPass system.

Wasn't there some talk about using high speed cameras and some sort of cross-collection system to allow for interoperability? That is, you don't need to be able to use the same tag everywhere; instead, there'd be a centralized db which would send the charge back to the home agency for payment. Yes, I do realize this means trying to get very political agencies to work together, but seeing how this would (could?) be a mutually beneficial arrangement, I think it'd be best. Beats having to track down and collect cash tolls from vehicles not in the system (and ideally, would allow the agencies to avoid a service fee).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on July 24, 2012, 05:35:46 PM
Isn't the NJ Turnpike planning to go all-electronic in a decade?

The problem with all-electronic is that non-locals are effectively barred from the toll roads, especially if you're driving a car registered to someone else or don't want to pay the bill-by-plate "fee" (it's high enough to be extortion of non-locals in every jurisdiction that has it).

Also, for a truly all-electronic toll system, you'd have to actually prevent cash payers from using the road. As we know, cash is legal tender for all debts; anyone who finds his way onto the toll road thereby incurs a debt to the tolling authority, and therefore has the option to satisfy that debt with cash. But if there were, say, a gate that only opens upon receipt of an electronic payment, you would prevent cash payers from getting onto the road in the first place and prevent that debt from being incurred.

(It's the same as buying something from a web site that only accepts credit cards. If you don't have a credit card, you don't get to have the item, and therefore you have no debt. But on the other hand–and this has happened to a friend of mine–say you try to check out of a hotel and are told they don't accept cash. They would thus waive their right to collect on the debt, because you have already used the service and can expect to pay for it using cash.

You are certainly permitted to pay your toll with cash.  When you receive your bill, you can go to the authority's headquarters and pay with cash at that time.  You are also not required to use the toll way.  If you don't want to pay the toll, you are welcome to find another route.  It may not be as fast, and it may take you 3 times as long, but no one is forcing you to use a toll road.

....

You can also mail in a cash payment if you wish. I think most people would agree that it's foolish to do that, but nothing's stopping anyone from paying that way. The "NO CASH" signs simply mean that there are no tollbooths anywhere along the route accepting cash payments (compare to some toll roads where the booths are unmanned at certain hours such that an E-ZPass, exact coins, or a credit card is required).


Hence E-ZPass, which is issued by a lot of states in the East, and will be expanding south to include North Carolina in the near future.
E-ZPass wouldn't help me in Texas, Kansas, California, Ontario, Quebec, or anywhere else outside of the E-ZPass system.

Wasn't there some talk about using high speed cameras and some sort of cross-collection system to allow for interoperability? That is, you don't need to be able to use the same tag everywhere; instead, there'd be a centralized db which would send the charge back to the home agency for payment. Yes, I do realize this means trying to get very political agencies to work together, but seeing how this would (could?) be a mutually beneficial arrangement, I think it'd be best. Beats having to track down and collect cash tolls from vehicles not in the system (and ideally, would allow the agencies to avoid a service fee).

"mtantillo" of this forum mentioned a couple of months ago that Florida was ready to allow E-ZPass users to use the SunPass lanes via an arrangement where the SunPass video enforcement would read your license plate number and then before the "toll-by-plate" bill goes out it would query the E-ZPass database for that plate number, find that you have an E-ZPass, and bill your account (meaning you wouldn't even need to have your E-ZPass transponder with you). The problem is that it's not as easy for the E-ZPass agencies to turn around and do the same thing. The issue is that some of the E-ZPass members–the one that comes to my mind immediately is the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority (or whatever its new name is)–persist in using the old toll machine gates in the "E-ZPass Only" lanes, such that when you go through those lanes you have to come to a crawl until the arm goes up to clear the way. The arm won't go up if you don't have an E-ZPass. I know this is not totally unique to those facilities in New York City, as last summer (2011) the Rickenbacker Causeway in Miami had a similar setup on their "C-Pass Only" lane ("C-Pass" being their proprietary transponder that was being phased out this year in favor of SunPass). So because SunPass, for example, is not compatible with E-ZPass, the SunPass won't activate the arm in the E-ZPass lane and you get a tailback, which is precisely what automated toll collection is supposed to eliminate.

I have no idea whether this problem can be overcome in a way that allows those agencies to maintain the old toll machine arms if they insist on doing so as a means of fighting against toll cheats. Obviously the better solution is to remove the arms and use video enforcement in the same manner Florida proposes to do, but perhaps some of the agencies feel that they'd wind up dealing with non-transponder drivers going through those lanes (which is exactly why they persist in using the annoying arms) and I guess they don't want to go to the expense of sending bills to one-time users and the like.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on July 24, 2012, 08:34:08 PM
"mtantillo" of this forum mentioned a couple of months ago that Florida was ready to allow E-ZPass users to use the SunPass lanes via an arrangement where the SunPass video enforcement would read your license plate number and then before the "toll-by-plate" bill goes out it would query the E-ZPass database for that plate number, find that you have an E-ZPass, and bill your account (meaning you wouldn't even need to have your E-ZPass transponder with you). The problem is that it's not as easy for the E-ZPass agencies to turn around and do the same thing. The issue is that some of the E-ZPass members—the one that comes to my mind immediately is the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority (or whatever its new name is)—persist in using the old toll machine gates in the "E-ZPass Only" lanes, such that when you go through those lanes you have to come to a crawl until the arm goes up to clear the way. The arm won't go up if you don't have an E-ZPass. I know this is not totally unique to those facilities in New York City, as last summer (2011) the Rickenbacker Causeway in Miami had a similar setup on their "C-Pass Only" lane ("C-Pass" being their proprietary transponder that was being phased out this year in favor of SunPass). So because SunPass, for example, is not compatible with E-ZPass, the SunPass won't activate the arm in the E-ZPass lane and you get a tailback, which is precisely what automated toll collection is supposed to eliminate.

I have no idea whether this problem can be overcome in a way that allows those agencies to maintain the old toll machine arms if they insist on doing so as a means of fighting against toll cheats. Obviously the better solution is to remove the arms and use video enforcement in the same manner Florida proposes to do, but perhaps some of the agencies feel that they'd wind up dealing with non-transponder drivers going through those lanes (which is exactly why they persist in using the annoying arms) and I guess they don't want to go to the expense of sending bills to one-time users and the like.

Those arms need to go the hell away. DRJTBC got rid of their gates in 2010 because they now have high speed cameras to catch violators. (Reference: http://www.drjtbc.org/default.aspx?pageid=1697 ). Why can't other agencies follow suit? I'm looking at you Burlington County Bridge Commission!  :no:
Does anyone have any numbers on the effectiveness of a gate (which, at least in the BCBC and DRJTBC lanes, you were able to bump out of the way) vs. collections after the fact using video tolling? I know the NJTA has had some collection issues from their top offenders, but what % of violations end up getting collected in the end? A criminal is a criminal... no point in holding back innovation if only some are abusing the system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on July 25, 2012, 12:54:06 AM
You are certainly permitted to pay your toll with cash.  When you receive your bill, you can go to the authority's headquarters and pay with cash at that time.  You are also not required to use the toll way.  If you don't want to pay the toll, you are welcome to find another route.  It may not be as fast, and it may take you 3 times as long, but no one is forcing you to use a toll road.

....

You can also mail in a cash payment if you wish. I think most people would agree that it's foolish to do that, but nothing's stopping anyone from paying that way. The "NO CASH" signs simply mean that there are no tollbooths anywhere along the route accepting cash payments (compare to some toll roads where the booths are unmanned at certain hours such that an E-ZPass, exact coins, or a credit card is required).

That's all quite true, but it raises a couple of issues:

-I agree that nobody is forced to use a toll road, but the issue isn't that, but rather than nobody's preventing you from using it either (and thereby incurring a debt).
-Taking, for example, the CA 91 toll lanes, they seem to consider any use of the facility without an electronic payment method as a "violation"; i.e., a toll evasion. If I have only cash, and have every intention of paying my debt, how have I committed a violation by using the road, if I haven't been prevented from doing so? Yet they charge a fee for this "violation"; I'm a bit curious about the legality of this, and I suspect that under some amount of scrutiny it might be found improper to charge a fee or penalty for selecting a perfectly permissible means of settling a debt.
-There is the argument that motorists are indeed prevented from using the road by the erection of signs, i.e., official traffic control devices. Only problem there is that if I violate an official traffic sign, my debt then is with law enforcement, on behalf of the state, not the tolling agency, which me be a quasi-public non-governmental organization, or even a private entity. I wonder if they funnel the violation fees to the appropriate governmental agencies in those cases? The line has always been fuzzy between governmental units and public authorities.
-All of this is mostly a theoretical exercise; I'm not suggesting that cashless systems can't exist (after all, they're already all around us). I'm just saying that it would involve a level of complexity slightly beyond your typical "all-electronic" system as they exist now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 25, 2012, 07:47:20 AM
-I agree that nobody is forced to use a toll road, but the issue isn't that, but rather than nobody's preventing you from using it either (and thereby incurring a debt).
-Taking, for example, the CA 91 toll lanes, they seem to consider any use of the facility without an electronic payment method as a "violation"; i.e., a toll evasion. If I have only cash, and have every intention of paying my debt, how have I committed a violation by using the road, if I haven't been prevented from doing so? Yet they charge a fee for this "violation"; I'm a bit curious about the legality of this, and I suspect that under some amount of scrutiny it might be found improper to charge a fee or penalty for selecting a perfectly permissible means of settling a debt.
-There is the argument that motorists are indeed prevented from using the road by the erection of signs, i.e., official traffic control devices. Only problem there is that if I violate an official traffic sign, my debt then is with law enforcement, on behalf of the state, not the tolling agency, which me be a quasi-public non-governmental organization, or even a private entity. I wonder if they funnel the violation fees to the appropriate governmental agencies in those cases? The line has always been fuzzy between governmental units and public authorities.
-All of this is mostly a theoretical exercise; I'm not suggesting that cashless systems can't exist (after all, they're already all around us). I'm just saying that it would involve a level of complexity slightly beyond your typical "all-electronic" system as they exist now.

I think the legality of this is settled by the fact that the road gives you ample warning that you cannot pay by cash, usually even announcing that there will be a fee if you don't have a transponder. If there's a sign that says you need a transponder or you will be charged a fee, then that's the case and you know if you don't have a transponder not to take the road.

I'm sure there are examples of the same situation in other places besides roads (I was thinking split cash/credit pricing at gas stations, but they usually charge more for credit, not cash).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on July 25, 2012, 09:29:29 AM
The United States Treasury disagrees with those of you who argue that anyone is REQUIRED to accept cash in payment of a debt (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx):

Quote
(Question:) I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

(Answer:) The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on July 25, 2012, 11:35:07 AM
nobody is forced to use a toll road

certainly not forced, but it is a hell of a lot more ornery to get from, say, Oakland to San Mateo, without a toll than with one. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on July 25, 2012, 06:51:48 PM
The United States Treasury disagrees with those of you who argue that anyone is REQUIRED to accept cash in payment of a debt (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx):

Quote
(Question:) I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

(Answer:) The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

Actually, I believe that supports the position when read carefully: "legal tender for all debts" does mean that cash, when offered as settlement of a debt, does legally and unequivocally extinguish that debt.

It's also correct to note that accepting cash is not required. A hotel patron cannot say, for example, "I am going to sleep in one of your rooms, and you will accept my cash as payment." In parallel, the hotel owner may say "I have a room available, but I will not let you have it if you are only offering cash as tender." In other words, the hotel owner has the right to decline to create a debt with the customer. But at the same time, if the patron has already slept in the room, and learns upon checking out that cash isn't accepted, he still has the right to offer cash as payment. Presumably, the owner can still refuse to accept it, and I guess that results in him waiving his right to collect on the debt, though I'm not certain how that's legally resolved. (The quote in this case being "I have slept in your room and am therefore in your debt; my cash, which you have the right to decline, does by my offering it nevertheless satisfy that debt."

Which brings up this question:

I think the legality of this is settled by the fact that the road gives you ample warning that you cannot pay by cash, usually even announcing that there will be a fee if you don't have a transponder. If there's a sign that says you need a transponder or you will be charged a fee, then that's the case and you know if you don't have a transponder not to take the road.

I do wonder whether simple notification is sufficient? For example, if the hotel has a sign posted that cash isn't accepted, but it has fallen down, or the patron otherwise doesn't notice it, and has no criminal intent, can the owner still refuse cash at checkout, while still expecting the debt to be satisfied? Is the burden on the owner to prevent the patron from using the service? I'd think so, because there are various ways in which a person can consume a product or service before paying for it, even in violation of a merchant's policy, without any ill intent.

I'm sure there's plenty of case law on this, and we're probably due for a thread split here.  :D But it's interesting, a sort of chicken-and-egg question, and I do wonder how all-electronic tolling gets around the problem (if it truly does).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on July 26, 2012, 09:01:57 AM
^ I am not a lawyer, but I'm under the impression that what the law says is less important than what you (and your adversary) think a judge or jury would accept should the matter end up in court.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 26, 2012, 11:29:45 AM
Sad but true.  For example, EULAs are technically illegal under current contract law (there's not negotiation or meeting of the minds, which contracts require, just "agree to use the service or don't and we keep your money anyways!  And we can change the terms at any time for any reason with little or no notice!  And there's nothing you can do about it!  HA HA HA!), but judges have ruled otherwise.  Ditto for everything in the bill of rights except for the third amendment.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 26, 2012, 01:10:20 PM
nobody is forced to use a toll road

certainly not forced, but it is a hell of a lot more ornery to get from, say, Oakland to San Mateo, without a toll than with one. 

Imagine if that toll road wasn't there.  In fact, it wasn't before the road was built.  So that other road was the only option.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on July 26, 2012, 08:48:57 PM
nobody is forced to use a toll road

certainly not forced, but it is a hell of a lot more ornery to get from, say, Oakland to San Mateo, without a toll than with one. 

Imagine if that toll road wasn't there.  In fact, it wasn't before the road was built.  So that other road was the only option.


The toll bridge replaced a toll ferry...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 29, 2012, 04:26:12 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike debt soaring on Act 44 payouts for transit/free roads - tripled in 5 years (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6153)

Quote
2012-08-28: Preliminary $-numbers for fiscal year 2012 show the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission's (PTC) debt now standing at close to $8 billion, a near threefold increase over the past five years. In FY2007 total debt was $2.71b, while at end FY2012 it was $7.95b - 2.95-fold higher.

Quote
In that time toll revenues - the commission's major source of revenue - went from $593m to $779m, a 31% increase. These are unaudited numbers that the commission says should be regarded as preliminary.

Quote
The good news seems to be that America's oldest automobile era pike has  managed to cut operating expenses considerably - from $363m in FY2007 to $303m in FY2012.

Quote
Tolls minus op exp then go from $230m in FY2007 to $476m in FY2012, a better than two fold increase. In our extremely simplified version of the Penn Pike's accounts their net - before debt service, depreciation and capital spending - was improved substantially by strong toll increases on the one hand and and economies in operation costs on the other.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2012, 11:18:09 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Pennsylvania auditor general tells legislators state Turnpike will face bankruptcy within "no more than a couple of years" (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6202)

Quote
2012-09-25: The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission will face bankruptcy in "no more than a couple of years" according to the state's Auditor General Jack Wagner speaking to a joint hearing of the transportation committees of the state legislature in Harrisburg Tuesday. Wagner called for an immediate repeal of Act 44 - the 2007 law that committed the Turnpike to $450m/year payments to the state department of transportation, PennDOT.

Quote
Following Wagner the Turnpike's CEO Roger Nutt said the Turnpike faced no crisis and has a sound financial plan for funding the $450m/year payments over the 50 years to 2057 as provided by Act 44. Rating agencies had not downrated the Turnpike's bonds in three years.

Quote
The state auditor general Wagner began by calling the Turnpike Commission's approach to paying $450m/year to the state DOT "film flam financing."

Quote
Without the toll revenues from I-80 envisaged by its primary sponsor state senate leader Vincent Fumo the Turnpike was only managing to make the PennDOT payouts by adding substantially to debt each year. With the addition of its own debt financing this was adding a "crushing debt" burden on the Turnpike books, Wagner insisted.

Quote
He drew an analogy with a householder who was able to meet his own mortgage payments on his house but is suddenly required to take on servicing his his neighbor's mortgage as well. And only does so by taking out new loans each year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2012, 07:18:47 PM
Philadelphia Inquirer: Pa. Turnpike using ”˜flim-flam’ financing: auditor-gen. (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/homepage/20120925_Pa__Turnpike_using_flim-flam_financing__auditor-gen_.html)

Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike officials are using "flim-flam finance" to cover the turnpike's increasing debt, and the toll road could be bankrupt in "a couple of years," state auditor general Jack Wagner told legislators Tuesday.

Quote
But turnpike chief executive Roger Nutt said toll increases on motorists and truckers every year will provide enough money to prevent financial calamity.

Quote
State lawmakers are considering whether to rewrite a 2007 law that requires the turnpike to provide $450 million a year for public transit and road and bridge projects around Pennsylvania, in addition to paying for the costs of operating the 545-mile turnpike system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 26, 2012, 09:44:01 PM
Is there a total that the PTC has paid via act44 and what fraction of PTC debt does that represent?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2012, 10:31:43 PM
Is there a total that the PTC has paid via act44 and what fraction of PTC debt does that represent?

I understand that it's $450 million per year, even though the PTC is not collecting a dime from I-80 motorists (the $450 million assumed that the PTC was going to be collecting a lot of revenue from I-80 tolls).

The TOLLROADSnews article above also said:

Quote
In five years of Act 44 payouts to PennDOT by the Turnpike its debt has risen from $2.6 billion to $7.3b. And it has gone from having a balance sheet of net assets of $156m to having negative net worth of $1.4b.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 28, 2012, 04:56:15 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Pennsylvania sec trans Schoch: "safer" to lift burden of debt on Penn Pike by repeal of Act 44 (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6206)

Quote
2012-09-26: Barry Schoch the Pennsylvania secretary of transportation said toward the end of a long hearing in the state legislature this week that it would be the "safer" course to repeal Act 44 and lift the burden of debt on the Turnpike and get alternative funding for PennDOT. Schoch disagreed with Jack Wagner the state auditor-general who said the Turnpike's use of new debt to fund the legislated payments of $450m/ year could cause a financial crisis within as little as "a couple of years."

Quote
Wagner urged the immediate repeal of the law requiring the $450m/year payments. We reported yesterday Turnpike CEO Roger Nutt's all-out defense of Act 44 and his complete rejection of the Auditor General's alarms.

Quote
By contrast with Nutt, secretary Schoch made a point of saying "I am not opposed to repeal of Act 44."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 04, 2012, 01:05:57 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike ops chief says ticket system replacement difficult decision with AET committed (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6214[/url)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is spending about $8 million to replace its ticket dispensers and readers. 119 entry lanes are getting a new automatic ticket issuing machine (ATIM) cabinet. 148 exit lanes at toll collector booths are getting new ticket readers and receipt printers.

Quote
The new equipment will be in use less than five years because the need for tickets will end with the conversion to all electronic tolling scheduled for mid-2017. Craig Shuey, chief operating officer tells us they considered trying to keep the old equipment going, but decided the risks of the old ticket system collapsing before mid-2017 were too great.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on October 07, 2012, 06:01:07 PM
I noticed that is some ramps on the PA Turnpike between it and PA 132 in Bensalem where the old Neshaminy Plaza used to be.  I am guessing that is part of the new I-95 and PA Turnpike project, but I see it has not made it to street view yet.

I see it on google satelite, but when you move down to street view status there is just woods there.  Is this going to be a relocated US 1 interchange, a new EZ Pass only interchange, or another exit to relieve traffic in that area.

Also, I noticed that there is no ramp from EB PA 132 to SB US 1 at the nearby cloverleaf.  How does EB to SB make it movements being that there is no sign at Old Lincoln Highway that would be the only way this missing movement could be made.   Is this lack of signage a mistake or has it been removed and never replaced as this would not be the first time a sign vanished and never replaced?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on October 07, 2012, 06:25:05 PM
I noticed that is some ramps on the PA Turnpike between it and PA 132 in Bensalem where the old Neshaminy Plaza used to be.  I am guessing that is part of the new I-95 and PA Turnpike project, but I see it has not made it to street view yet.

I see it on google satelite, but when you move down to street view status there is just woods there.  Is this going to be a relocated US 1 interchange, a new EZ Pass only interchange, or another exit to relieve traffic in that area.

Also, I noticed that there is no ramp from EB PA 132 to SB US 1 at the nearby cloverleaf.  How does EB to SB make it movements being that there is no sign at Old Lincoln Highway that would be the only way this missing movement could be made.   Is this lack of signage a mistake or has it been removed and never replaced as this would not be the first time a sign vanished and never replaced?
The new interchange is an E-ZPass only exit and entrance for eastbound Turnpike traffic, which has nothing to do with the I-95 project.  This is before where the new mainline toll plaza will be located.

Last time I was down there, there was signing (trailblazers) on eastbound Street Road at the Old Lincoln Highway intersection directing traffic to U.S. 1 SB to turn right.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on October 08, 2012, 02:48:20 PM
Yeah, Old Lincoln Highway is a corner-cutter for both directions. It's also choked sometimes. PennDOT does have ROW to make it four lanes, though.

The new ramps are just slip ramps to Street Road, primarily built because of nearby Parx Casino, as akotchi said. The new plaza will be east of there between the Galloway and Richlieu Road bridges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 05:17:26 PM
I noticed that the two Harrisburg Interchanges are Harrisburg Westshore and Harrisburg East.  I was wondering why the I-283 interchange is not Harrisburg Eastshore?  I noticed to the the ticket says Harrisburg W. to fit it in the same as its counterpart having Harrisburg E.  The signs for I-83, the last I have seen, did not say Westshore but West as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 09, 2012, 06:49:23 PM
I noticed that the two Harrisburg Interchanges are Harrisburg Westshore and Harrisburg East.  I was wondering why the I-283 interchange is not Harrisburg Eastshore?  I noticed to the the ticket says Harrisburg W. to fit it in the same as its counterpart having Harrisburg E.  The signs for I-83, the last I have seen, did not say Westshore but West as well.
In the 22 years I've been in PA, the I-83/I-76-PA Turnpike interchange has always been known as Harrisburg West.  Which matches all the signs, toll tickets, maps etc.  Out of curiousity, when was it referred to or called Harrisburg Westshore?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 09, 2012, 10:06:55 PM
Philly.com: PA Turnpike Chief Resigns
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20121009_Pa__Turnpike_chief_resigns.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20121009_Pa__Turnpike_chief_resigns.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 10, 2012, 12:28:12 AM
Philly.com: PA Turnpike Chief Resigns
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20121009_Pa__Turnpike_chief_resigns.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20121009_Pa__Turnpike_chief_resigns.html)

Wonder if he got tired of being asked all of those questions about Act 44 and the huge amounts of cash that the PTC has been sending over to PennDOT, SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 10, 2012, 08:36:42 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike CEO Roger Nutt retires after 19 months because of heart problems, he says (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6223)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 14, 2012, 02:20:36 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike's debt-to-fund-handouts model continues to be issue in state legislature - 3 years of insolvency (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6274)

Quote
2012-11-13: State auditor general Jack Wagner said again today in a legislative hearing that the Pennsylvania Turnpike "will go over a financial cliff at some point" unless it is relieved of the obligation to hand over $450 million each year to the state DOT for free roads and transit subsidies. He called the mid-2007 law (Act 44) requiring the payments "a financial noose" around the neck of the Turnpike.

Quote
The Turnpike "faces bankruptcy" the auditor general said if it has to keep borrowing more to make the handouts. It was "not a sustainable business model." Wagner alluded to the top of the toll rates/revenue curve where losses of traffic equal the percentage by which toll rates are raised and no more revenue can be extracted from the Turnpike.

Quote
He called this a "tipping point" at which the financial model could be overturned.

Quote
Turnpike officials say this isn't a present threat, that it has a sound longterm financial plan, that the Turnpike bonds are still highly rated and the management of the Turnpike is aggressively cutting costs to produce an operating surplus that can help pay for its interest and state-handout obligations.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on November 15, 2012, 01:58:17 PM
The Post-Gazette had a story (concerning trans. funding) that refrenced this stuff as well....

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/state/road-to-transportation-policy-detoured-662006/ (http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/state/road-to-transportation-policy-detoured-662006/)

Quote
He recommended lawmakers repeal a 2007 law that requires the commission to provide $450 million each year for improvements to roads, bridges and public transportation in the state.

Representatives of the turnpike testified the commission could meet its obligations by increasing tolls about 3 percent each year. A financial adviser told lawmakers there is strong demand for bonds issued by the turnpike.

"The issue here is a choice of how do you finance it," Secretary of Transportation Barry Schoch said after the hearing. "His feeling is that running into debt on the turnpike is not a good choice, and I respect that opinion. I think from our perspective though, as we said today, we can manage it at the turnpike."

So they can meet their "obligations" by raising tolls 3% each year? Nifty.
The problem is the notion of raising tolls 3% EVERY year should not be acceptable to anyone associated with making transportation policy. 
Obviously, toll rates do need to increase every so often, what with inflation and all (and, as much as I'd hate seeing gas prices rise, the gas tax should too), but 3% annually seems excessive and unsustainable in the long run.

The bottom line is Act 44 is complete, total, and utter BULLSHIT!  And I don't have any faith in Harrisburg to do anything about anytime soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on November 20, 2012, 08:29:51 AM
So they can meet their "obligations" by raising tolls 3% each year? Nifty.
The problem is the notion of raising tolls 3% EVERY year should not be acceptable to anyone associated with making transportation policy. 
Obviously, toll rates do need to increase every so often, what with inflation and all (and, as much as I'd hate seeing gas prices rise, the gas tax should too), but 3% annually seems excessive and unsustainable in the long run.

The bottom line is Act 44 is complete, total, and utter BULLSHIT!  And I don't have any faith in Harrisburg to do anything about anytime soon.

Agreed. Now that the election season is over, I need to bug my state reps again about repealing that POS. I don't have a problem with tolls. I do have a problem with tolls being used to fund shortfalls in the general transportation budget. Why tax just the turnpike users for general funding for mass transit and other roads in PA? If PA needs transportation money, then PA needs to raise taxes. How long do they think they can keep raising tolls until it starts cutting into their usage? Or maybe they figure with the number of commuters who have no practical alternatives, they'd be set.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on November 20, 2012, 09:09:19 AM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on November 20, 2012, 09:34:36 AM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.

This is the same model that ADOT uses to fund the freeway system around Phoenix. I think it's a great idea, given that most of the traffic on these roads is probably all within the metro area (so you're generally taxing the people who benefit the most from the system). It comes as close as possible to a usage-based system as you can get without implementing tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on December 03, 2012, 05:09:17 PM
Pa. turnpike had early impact on nation’s motoring history (http://tribune-democrat.com/local/x942840567/Pa-turnpike-had-early-impact-on-nation-s-motoring-history) - Johnstown Tribune-Review

Just a "Cliff Notes" version of its history.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 03, 2012, 06:54:39 PM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.

Isn't there some sort of funding mechanism like the above in Orange County (Calif.) that is limited to that county? 

And might explain why I-5 (Santa Ana Freeway) is in dramatically better condition in Orange County than it is in Los Angeles County?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 03, 2012, 10:19:45 PM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.

Isn't there some sort of funding mechanism like the above in Orange County (Calif.) that is limited to that county? 

And might explain why I-5 (Santa Ana Freeway) is in dramatically better condition in Orange County than it is in Los Angeles County?

Yes, IIRC all of the peripheral counties in metro LA have this mechanism in place, I believe LA County does as well, but they blow it all on the LA Metro, now in San Diego, prior to both the 1984 vote and the 2004 renewal, specified the allocation breakdown for mass transit, local roads and freeways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: BigRedDog on December 03, 2012, 10:42:01 PM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.

One problem: the voters did not pass a 1% sales tax for stadiums in Pittsburgh. In fact, the plan was to increase the sales tax .5% in 11 counties in the Pittsburgh Metro area to pay for two new stadiums and a convention center in Pittsburgh as well as building road, bridge, sewer, water and industrial park projects in all 11 counties. That referendum was overwhelmingly rejected by the voters in all 11 counties in of November 1997. (To be fair, I don't know the history behind the Philadelphia stadiums.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 03, 2012, 11:32:31 PM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.

One problem: the voters did not pass a 1% sales tax for stadiums in Pittsburgh. In fact, the plan was to increase the sales tax .5% in 11 counties in the Pittsburgh Metro area to pay for two new stadiums and a convention center in Pittsburgh as well as building road, bridge, sewer, water and industrial park projects in all 11 counties. That referendum was overwhelmingly rejected by the voters in all 11 counties in of November 1997. (To be fair, I don't know the history behind the Philadelphia stadiums.)

I left PA in 1985, I am glad to see the attempt was at least made in 1997 for SW PA, I was worried that a mechanism like that may have been prohibited by PA's constitution.  But it has been 14 years, maybe it should be attempted again, when does the Heinz Field tax end?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: BigRedDog on December 03, 2012, 11:46:28 PM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.

One problem: the voters did not pass a 1% sales tax for stadiums in Pittsburgh. In fact, the plan was to increase the sales tax .5% in 11 counties in the Pittsburgh Metro area to pay for two new stadiums and a convention center in Pittsburgh as well as building road, bridge, sewer, water and industrial park projects in all 11 counties. That referendum was overwhelmingly rejected by the voters in all 11 counties in of November 1997. (To be fair, I don't know the history behind the Philadelphia stadiums.)

I left PA in 1985, I am glad to see the attempt was at least made in 1997 for SW PA, I was worried that a mechanism like that may have been prohibited by PA's constitution.  But it has been 14 years, maybe it should be attempted again, when does the Heinz Field tax end?

There is no tax. That's what I'm saying. The proposal to add .5% to the sales tax was defeated, rejected, shot down, kaput. It didn't happen. Heinz Field (and PNC Park and the David L. Lawrence Convention Center) were paid for with money given by the city, the county and the commonwealth from existing sources. Granted, the taxpayers are footing the bill, but not because they chose to do so, but because the politicians decided to ignore the will of the people.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 04, 2012, 12:31:54 AM
I guess that's where I got confused:  My folks still live in Allegheny County (McCandless) and they always told me that the 1% sales tax for stadiums only had been approved by the voters.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: BigRedDog on December 04, 2012, 12:46:06 AM
I guess that's where I got confused:  My folks still live in Allegheny County (McCandless) and they always told me that the 1% sales tax for stadiums only had been approved by the voters.

The sales tax in PA is 6%. Passed in 1994, Allegheny County started imposing an extra 1% that is split between reducing local taxes and for funding of regional assets (museums, parks, libraries, cultural groups, et. al.) Part of that money did go to funding the two Pittsburgh stadiums, but the 1% sales tax increase of 1994 was enacted by political leaders and is not the "Plan A" .5% sales tax referendum that was soundly rejected in 1997.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: KEVIN_224 on December 04, 2012, 01:14:47 AM
I seem to remember the sales tax showing as 7% whenever I bought something in Philadelphia.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 04, 2012, 08:41:42 AM
I seem to remember the sales tax showing as 7% whenever I bought something in Philadelphia.
Philly's sales tax was bumped up to 7% in 1991 and was later increased to 8% just a few years ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 04, 2012, 11:01:55 AM
There is no tax. That's what I'm saying. The proposal to add .5% to the sales tax was defeated, rejected, shot down, kaput. It didn't happen. Heinz Field (and PNC Park and the David L. Lawrence Convention Center) were paid for with money given by the city, the county and the commonwealth from existing sources. Granted, the taxpayers are footing the bill, but not because they chose to do so, but because the politicians decided to ignore the will of the people.
The vote was only for the additional .5% sales tax, not the stadium.  Plus "your money" ceases to be yours the moment it's paid in taxes.  Once that happens, it's the government's money (refunds are not "giving back your money" but rather paying a debt they incurred when you overpaid).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: BigRedDog on December 04, 2012, 11:12:34 AM
There is no tax. That's what I'm saying. The proposal to add .5% to the sales tax was defeated, rejected, shot down, kaput. It didn't happen. Heinz Field (and PNC Park and the David L. Lawrence Convention Center) were paid for with money given by the city, the county and the commonwealth from existing sources. Granted, the taxpayers are footing the bill, but not because they chose to do so, but because the politicians decided to ignore the will of the people.
The vote was only for the additional .5% sales tax, not the stadium.  Plus "your money" ceases to be yours the moment it's paid in taxes.  Once that happens, it's the government's money (refunds are not "giving back your money" but rather paying a debt they incurred when you overpaid).

You're right that the vote was "only for the additional .5% sales tax" and was not directly a vote for against building the new stadiums. However, it was a vote on how to fund the projects with the proposed .5% increase going directly to fund the stadiums, the convention center and road, bridge, sewer, water and industrial park projects in all 11 counties.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mc78andrew on December 04, 2012, 08:48:33 PM
I seem to remember the sales tax showing as 7% whenever I bought something in Philadelphia.
Philly's sales tax was bumped up to 7% in 1991 and was later increased to 8% just a few years ago.

Philly also has a wage tax.  Tough place to make a living. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kendancy66 on December 04, 2012, 11:28:07 PM
Even though I no longer live in PA, I have written representtives there to promote the SoCal model:  Giving an MPO the ability to go to the ballot box to raise a 1/4% sales tax for transportation.  In San Diego, there is a predetermined split 35% freeways. 35% mass transit, 30% local roads.  It raises a sh**load of $$, If the voters passsed a 1% sales tax for stadiums in PItts and Philly, this should be at least presented tot hem as well.

Isn't there some sort of funding mechanism like the above in Orange County (Calif.) that is limited to that county?

You are thinking of Measure M.  I think it adds 1/2% to the sales tax
Quote
And might explain why I-5 (Santa Ana Freeway) is in dramatically better condition in Orange County than it is in Los Angeles County?

I think that I-5 is one of first projects that got Measure M money, but I am not sure.  I am sure that SR-22 was rebuilt with Measure M money.  Pretty much every freeway in Orange County has had a measure M project performed on it.

PLEASE use quote tags properly
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 05, 2012, 01:08:35 AM
Now that work is wrapping up on 3 laning/reconstruction from PA8 to Warrendale and commencing from PA 8 to PA 28, what, if any will be the next Pittsburgh segment to be widened?  I am having difficulty gleaning that info from the Capital Improvement Plan
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 05, 2012, 01:04:09 PM
Now that work is wrapping up on 3 laning/reconstruction from PA8 to Warrendale and commencing from PA 8 to PA 28, what, if any will be the next Pittsburgh segment to be widened?  I am having difficulty gleaning that info from the Capital Improvement Plan

Yeah... their website doesn't do so well in spelling out their long-range plans anymore.

I know they are planning on replacing the Beaver River Bridge, and maybe doing some of the Beaver Valley to Cranberry section.  No longer sure what the timetables are for any of that though.

Eventually, I'm sure they want to get the rest widened/reconstructed between Irwin (US-30) & Allegheny Valley (PA-28).... Though they might (at least, I'm guessing) be trying to squeeze more life out of some fairly major (4-lane) structures in that area (One near the Irwin interchange, One just about right in the middle of Monroeville <-> Alleg. Valley).  I'm also guessing that's the reason the 6-laning & reconstruction ended about 1-1/2 mile west of the PA-8 exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 04, 2013, 08:22:09 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Snow and ice policy changes generate angst at Penn Pike sheds (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6339)

Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike employees have always been proud of the work they do to keep their roadways clear and safe through the winter. And with some justification. The Turnpike's east-west mainline mostly I-76 and the north-south I-476 NE Extension both have the reputation for being the best ways to travel in ice and snow. Whereas Penn DOT has a reputation for struggling to avert ice or clear snow properly the Turnpike has been pretty consistent in delivering a safe roadway with a "bare pavement" policy based on spreading large quantities of salt ahead, and then deploying large fleets of plows to move snow off the travel lanes.

Quote
In the north the local wisdom in wintry weather is "forget 80, go down to the Turnpike" and in the east it's "forget 81, go with the (NE) Extension" - because the Turnpike's handling of ice and snow is superior to that of the state DOT on the untolled interstates. Presumably the same is true with the north-south routes in the west.

Quote
Early in the winter a guy in one of the maintenance sheds - we'll call him Murphy - told us the Turnpike's superior performance in winter is being put in jeopardy by a new set of PennDOT managers taking over "the third floor" in the Turnpike's central office.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 04, 2013, 08:45:19 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Snow and ice policy changes generate angst at Penn Pike sheds (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6339)
Quote
Early in the winter a guy in one of the maintenance sheds - we'll call him Murphy - told us the Turnpike's superior performance in winter is being put in jeopardy by a new set of PennDOT managers taking over "the third floor" in the Turnpike's central office.

From my experences salting roadways, no matter what policies are created internally regarding how much salt to put on the roads, the plow/salt truck operator just has to use judgement on how much needs to be applied and where. 

Before a storm, putting salt out is senseless.  Just like a candy wrapper flying around from passing vehicles, most of the salt on a dry road has nothing to stick to, and will mostly be breezed over to the shoulders.  Sure, some salt gets crushed by passing vehicles, but compared to what is being spread on the roads, the benefits are minute.

That's why brine is preferred before a storm. But even then, after the storm intensifies, there's not much that can be done to keep the roads cleared until after the storm is over, or the road temp rises to about 32 degrees.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on January 04, 2013, 09:05:15 AM
Quote
Penn DOT

That'd better just be a typo. :pan:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 04, 2013, 11:33:31 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Snow and ice policy changes generate angst at Penn Pike sheds (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6339)
Quote
Early in the winter a guy in one of the maintenance sheds - we'll call him Murphy - told us the Turnpike's superior performance in winter is being put in jeopardy by a new set of PennDOT managers taking over "the third floor" in the Turnpike's central office.

From my experences salting roadways, no matter what policies are created internally regarding how much salt to put on the roads, the plow/salt truck operator just has to use judgement on how much needs to be applied and where.

I agree.  This is why simple-sounding "dump truck drivers" with experience doing this sort of work need to be well-compensated.  And why dump truck drivers that have knowledge of the highways they are treating are an important asset.

Before a storm, putting salt out is senseless.  Just like a candy wrapper flying around from passing vehicles, most of the salt on a dry road has nothing to stick to, and will mostly be breezed over to the shoulders.  Sure, some salt gets crushed by passing vehicles, but compared to what is being spread on the roads, the benefits are minute.

I agree.

That's why brine is preferred before a storm. But even then, after the storm intensifies, there's not much that can be done to keep the roads cleared until after the storm is over, or the road temp rises to about 32 degrees.

There are places where temperatures can stay below freezing for many, many days, yet snow and ice must be dealt with anyway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 04, 2013, 03:51:29 PM
That's why brine is preferred before a storm. But even then, after the storm intensifies, there's not much that can be done to keep the roads cleared until after the storm is over, or the road temp rises to about 32 degrees.

There are places where temperatures can stay below freezing for many, many days, yet snow and ice must be dealt with anyway.

Thus, the *or*. :-)

When both factors are at play (storm & cold temps), the best the road crews can do is keep the roads passible. 

When the temps rise, the snow/ice won't stick and/or melt from the roadway, even if it is still snowing. 

When the storm ends, the crews can work on getting the snow and/or ice off the roadways, even if temps are below the freezing point. 

But clearing roads during a storm, below 32 degrees, is simply impossible, no matter how much people think it can magically happen!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 04, 2013, 05:54:20 PM
Now that work is wrapping up on 3 laning/reconstruction from PA8 to Warrendale and commencing from PA 8 to PA 28, what, if any will be the next Pittsburgh segment to be widened?  I am having difficulty gleaning that info from the Capital Improvement Plan

I have the old timetable on my site (http://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter13), but that went out the window when Act 44 began eating into their budget.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 09, 2013, 08:19:59 AM
TOLLROADSnews: State auditor-general again clashes with Pennsylvania Turnpike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6346)

Quote
The state's auditor-general (AG) Jack Wagner and the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission differ sharply over a review of the Turnpike's management. Most money is at issue in what Wagner says is  $109 million in losses he estimates have been incurred by the Turnpike in interest rate swaps or hedging contracts.

Quote
"The Turnpike Commission’s use of swaps associated with its bond issues, which was a strategy designed to save money, has instead proven to saddle the commonwealth’s taxpayers and the Turnpike’s toll-paying customers with enormous costs," the AG report writes. "Given the Turnpike’s precarious financial position relative to Act 44 payments (to the state DOT), the Turnpike should not use these complicated and risky deals."

Quote
The Turnpike in a lengthy response disputes the AG's accounting methodology. The Turnpike says the termination payments called $59m in losses by the AG in fact allowed the Turnpike to refinance at a lower interest rate and in fact produced present value savings of nearly $11m as a result.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman on January 15, 2013, 01:19:55 PM
Noted this press release regarding the Kittany and Blue Mountain Tunnels.

http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130102170238.htm

Any idea what the "safety reasons" that prompted this restriction are?

Edited to correct the link - RM
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on January 15, 2013, 02:01:39 PM
That link doesn't mention the tunnels, this does:
http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130102170238.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman on January 15, 2013, 02:09:21 PM
Sorry about the error, and thanks.  I've corrected the link in my original post.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 15, 2013, 02:42:00 PM
Noted this press release regarding the Kittany and Blue Mountain Tunnels.
http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130102170238.htm

Any idea what the "safety reasons" that prompted this restriction are?

My only guess... and it's just a guess since I haven't personally been on the turnpike in that area (or east of Breezewood, for that matter) in almost 6-1/2 years.....:

There is currently road work between MP 199-202, and by the looks of the traffic camera they have in the area (http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/mp199to202/cameras.html (http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/mp199to202/cameras.html)), traffic is using the shoulder area as the right lane of each direction....

Anytime you have a fairly long-term situation where the shoulder is used as a regular lane, you'll usually see buses and trucks restricted to the left lane, since the shoulder isn't designed to take all the weight of heavier vehicles. 
As to why this applies to the tunnels, I can only guess that they want the trucks and buses in the left lane a good bit in advance of the construction area... Since there are no lane changes allowed in the tunnels, nor in the short space between the tunnels, they want it (trucks & buses in the left lane) to happen before entering the first tunnel (eastbound), or they want trucks to wait to get out of the left lane till after the tunnels (westbound).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman on January 15, 2013, 02:52:12 PM
Noted this press release regarding the Kittany and Blue Mountain Tunnels.
http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130102170238.htm

Any idea what the "safety reasons" that prompted this restriction are?

My only guess... and it's just a guess since I haven't personally been on the turnpike in that area (or east of Breezewood, for that matter) in almost 6-1/2 years.....:

There is currently road work between MP 199-202, and by the looks of the traffic camera they have in the area (http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/mp199to202/cameras.html (http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/mp199to202/cameras.html)), traffic is using the shoulder area as the right lane of each direction....

Anytime you have a fairly long-term situation where the shoulder is used as a regular lane, you'll usually see buses and trucks restricted to the left lane, since the shoulder isn't designed to take all the weight of heavier vehicles. 
As to why this applies to the tunnels, I can only guess that they want the trucks and buses in the left lane a good bit in advance of the construction area... Since there are no lane changes allowed in the tunnels, nor in the short space between the tunnels, they want it (trucks & buses in the left lane) to happen before entering the first tunnel (eastbound), or they want trucks to wait to get out of the left lane till after the tunnels (westbound).

Hadn't thought about the adjacent construction area (or that the shoulder is being used as a travel lane), but it seems logical to do so.  Thanks.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 15, 2013, 03:31:28 PM
Acctually the work zone is IMMEDIATELY upon exiting the tunnels.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 17, 2013, 06:30:36 PM
Anytime you have a fairly long-term situation where the shoulder is used as a regular lane, you'll usually see buses and trucks restricted to the left lane, since the shoulder isn't designed to take all the weight of heavier vehicles.

The PA Turnpike shoulders are also slightly sloped away from the travel lanes and have drain grates in them. This causes a rolling moment that is very noticeable for large trucks. It makes driving them rather difficult. So controllability is also one of the reasons trucks are kept in the left lane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 17, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
I read somewhere, either on the PA Turnpike website, or in a news article, that one of the main reasons for the Trucks/Buses Left Lane pattern is for the safety of the construction vehicles who have to merge in/out of the right lane into the construction areas.  Because trucks and buses take longer to slow down, and because construction vehicles will be driving much slower entering/exiting the right lane to the construction area, it's safer to keep trucks and buses out of the right lane.

I think the issue of drain gates, and the shoulders not being able to take the weight, were also noted in what I remember reading.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 17, 2013, 08:36:23 PM
Anytime you have a fairly long-term situation where the shoulder is used as a regular lane, you'll usually see buses and trucks restricted to the left lane, since the shoulder isn't designed to take all the weight of heavier vehicles. 

I think that is the reason.  I have seen Virginia do this  as well, as far back as the mid-1980's, when VDOT was widening a long section of I-95 (from Richmond to MCB Quantico) from four lanes to six lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 17, 2013, 09:39:02 PM
I read somewhere, either on the PA Turnpike website, or in a news article, that one of the main reasons for the Trucks/Buses Left Lane pattern is for the safety of the construction vehicles who have to merge in/out of the right lane into the construction areas.  Because trucks and buses take longer to slow down, and because construction vehicles will be driving much slower entering/exiting the right lane to the construction area, it's safer to keep trucks and buses out of the right lane.

I think the issue of drain gates, and the shoulders not being able to take the weight, were also noted in what I remember reading.

It was mentioned recently as well in an article

http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-04/news/mc-road-warrior-trucks-left-20110904_1_mid-county-lanes-work-zone
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 17, 2013, 09:52:54 PM
It was mentioned recently as well in an article

http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-04/news/mc-road-warrior-trucks-left-20110904_1_mid-county-lanes-work-zone

That's EXACTLY where I read it - thanks!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 17, 2013, 11:47:59 PM
On a Pittsburgh-centric message board i frequent, a Turnpike employee posted that final design work for PA 28 to I-376 widening/rebuild commenced in August 2012, but the mentioned that the 376 interchage would be vastly reconfigured.  Anyone know anything on this?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 18, 2013, 09:16:17 AM
On a Pittsburgh-centric message board i frequent, a Turnpike employee posted that final design work for PA 28 to I-376 widening/rebuild commenced in August 2012, but the mentioned that the 376 interchage would be vastly reconfigured.  Anyone know anything on this?

I haven't heard anything about this, but, with AET coming to the Turnpike in the future, I could see some flyovers @ the I-76/I-376/US-22 interchange get built to eliminate the tight ramps.  Also to eliminate the left exits from I-376 to/from US-22/US-22 Business.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 18, 2013, 11:30:41 AM
I realized this morning that any widening would require the replacement of the trumpet bridge over the turnpike for 376, hence the need to probably build a replacement interchange beforehand.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 22, 2013, 06:12:58 PM
Turnpike Planning Called Into Question Over Demolition of Recently Built Bridges (http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/3238961-74/turnpike-bridges-bridge) - Tribune-Review
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 22, 2013, 06:17:43 PM
On a Pittsburgh-centric message board i frequent, a Turnpike employee posted that final design work for PA 28 to I-376 widening/rebuild commenced in August 2012, but the mentioned that the 376 interchage would be vastly reconfigured.  Anyone know anything on this?

I haven't heard anything about this, but, with AET coming to the Turnpike in the future, I could see some flyovers @ the I-76/I-376/US-22 interchange get built to eliminate the tight ramps.  Also to eliminate the left exits from I-376 to/from US-22/US-22 Business.

I'll admit this has piqued my interest.  It might be quite some time, probably not until constructions starts, that they'll post any plans on the web (though I hope I'm wrong), but I'm quite curious as to what their plans are.  Since it won't be for a while, I'd also bet that it involves not having a toll plaza.  Not sure what would get reconfigured on the "free" side of things.  PennDOT just rebuilt the EB US-22/End-of-376 bridge over the William Penn Hwy a year ago, and the TPK's bridge (WB) over Bus-22 that becomes I-376 isn't all that old either. 
Certainly curious.


*-EDIT: I was gonna segue my second-to-last sentence into posting the Trib story that PA Highways beat me to by a few minutes about the turnpike replacing bridges that aren't that old yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 22, 2013, 11:27:36 PM
Turnpike Planning Called Into Question Over Demolition of Recently Built Bridges (http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/3238961-74/turnpike-bridges-bridge) - Tribune-Review

I've noticed the same thing: bridges that look rather new that you know will have to be torn down for widening
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: JREwing78 on January 23, 2013, 07:27:39 PM
When I've seen a highway department replace an overpass over a freeway/tollway/expressway, it's almost always rebuilt with room for an extra lane or two in each direction. It's more expensive at first, but it certainly saves you the trouble of rebuilding the bridge 13 years later when "Oh, whoops!", they suddenly decide to widen the highway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 24, 2013, 10:58:50 AM
Exactly.  The widening projects may not have been on the horizon when the bridges were built, but that does not excuse the incompetence of building them for the current day and nothing more.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 24, 2013, 12:20:36 PM
When they do any sort of project, they are supposed to plan and forecast for the next 25 years.  Let's see what sort of planning was done, and why that forecast failed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 24, 2013, 12:42:19 PM
When they do any sort of project, they are supposed to plan and forecast for the next 25 years.  Let's see what sort of planning was done, and why that forecast failed.

The marginal cost of constructing a bridge over a four-lane freeway with shoulders (which is what most of the Pennsylvania Turnpike is) to accommodate a future six-lane freeway with shoulders is not that high in the scheme of things.

Maryland (SHA and MdTA) do this routinely when they re-deck bridges that run over freeways - and they also try to provide an extra lane when  they re-deck a bridge that carries a freeway. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on January 24, 2013, 01:07:18 PM
The marginal cost of constructing a bridge over a four-lane freeway with shoulders (which is what most of the Pennsylvania Turnpike is) to accommodate a future six-lane freeway with shoulders is not that high in the scheme of things.

I recall seeing at least a couple of sections of the Turnpike which have had bridge replacements in the past, where they made the new bridges wide enough to accomodate future widening (along with huge shoulders with striped lines). I'm pretty sure most of these predated the six-lane proclamation by at least a few years. So, it's not like the Turnpike hasn't done it before. I can only assume that whoever did the planning had come to the conclusion that at no point in the next 25 years would that section ever need more than four lanes. While a farmer's observations are far from scientific, I do wonder, did that section actually need widening (based strictly on traffic count)?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 24, 2013, 04:26:54 PM
I have no idea what the traffic count is between Irwin <-> New Stanton, but I certainly appreciate the widening. 
Since they were re-building it from the "Ground up", including a new alignment for part of it, anyway, going ahead and building it 6-lanes made sense.  (Of course, I'm biased for this stretch).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PurdueBill on January 27, 2013, 10:24:12 AM
The PA Turnpike bridges remind me of the bridges at the FL 408/417/Valencia College Lane area, built in 1988 and demolished last year after the toll authority folks decided to redesign things.  24 years isn't as severe as 13 years like the PA bridges, but the conditions in Florida aren't as severe and the bridges were quite sufficient according to their ratings.  A non-toll department of transportation would certainly not be able to go demolishing such recent work because they wouldn't have the money.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: lepidopteran on January 28, 2013, 08:27:54 PM
I've seen the same thing with sound walls.  The new concrete walls are built close to the roadway, just as road widenings are being discussed that would require them to be demolished.

I noticed, over the past 15 years or so, the PA Turnpike built some new bridges that didn't appear to be constructed for the long term.  Their distinctive characteristic is: smooth (steel?) cylindrical support piers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CrossCountryRoads on January 29, 2013, 08:59:01 PM
I can't believe they jacked up the rates on the PA Tpke the first of this month, yet again.  It now costs a truck (5 axles, 60,000 or more  GCW) a little over $200 to go from Ohio to New Jersey via the pike without EZ Pass.  That's, for lack of a better word, ridiculous.  Could you imagine handing over that kind of cash at a toll booth?  I don't think the PTC quite understands the Law of Diminishing Returns.  This happened with the Ohio Tpke awhile back.  The speed limit on the OH Tpke at the time was 55 mph for trucks, and they kept jacking up the rates year after year.  Eventually, their revenue went down as more and more trucks avoided the turnpike since they could only go 55 mph on it anyhow.  So what did they do?  They lowered the rates and raised the truck speed limit to get trucks back on it.

I think the PA Turnpike needs to think more about this, since I already know a lot of truck drivers who go out of their way to avoid paying the hefty toll.

PAHighways, you seem to be well-versed on the PA Turnpike, so I'll ask you have you read/heard anything about why they had to raise the rates again the first of this year?  Were there any clear reasons stated?  Oh and by the way I see you're in Unity Twp, is that the one near Latrobe?  If so, we're pretty close to each other.  I'm in Indiana County.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on January 29, 2013, 09:26:43 PM
The PA Turnpike bridges remind me of the bridges at the FL 408/417/Valencia College Lane area, built in 1988 and demolished last year after the toll authority folks decided to redesign things.  24 years isn't as severe as 13 years like the PA bridges, but the conditions in Florida aren't as severe and the bridges were quite sufficient according to their ratings.  A non-toll department of transportation would certainly not be able to go demolishing such recent work because they wouldn't have the money.
How about the original bridge carrying FL 429 over FL 414 that was torn down last year?, This  one is a better example as it was only a few years old after FL 414 was extended  beyond US 441?  Then FDOT when widening Kirkman Road over the FL Turnpike had its bridge  widened to accommodate a new travel lane and a sidewalk.  The FL Turnpike Enterprise demolished it within 5 years when the FL Turnpike was widened in 08. 

 Someone in FDOT had to know the Turnpike would need widening in the very near future with Orlando's sprawl the way it is.  Also with the former, being that bridge was brand new, another interchange option should have been used as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 30, 2013, 01:32:09 PM
I can't believe they jacked up the rates on the PA Tpke the first of this month, yet again. 

Believe it... Only cause it's their plan.  Just like they'll jack 'em up again next January. And then the January after that....
Between the mainline re-builds, and, most egregiously (IMO, anyway) their Act 44 obligations to the state, annual toll increases are part of their "plan".

I also agree that it's not sustainable to keep it up.  I get that any toll agency has to keep pace with inflation at times (and the gas tax probably should as well), but I think most motorists using the PA Turnpike are going to really sour on it.

Also, to just go ahead and answer your question - Unity Township (Westmoreland Co.) is just south of the City of Latrobe
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: olemissfan on February 09, 2013, 11:47:25 AM
...and these recent toll hikes are the reason that its always best to take i-80 across the state and not the penna turnpike
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on February 09, 2013, 12:17:21 PM
...and these recent toll hikes are the reason that its always best to take i-80 across the state and not the penna turnpike

Oh, I don't know about that...if the purpose of your trip is to look at the abandoned tunnels and roadways of the turnpike, it's probably not best to take I-80. :-)

If the purpose of your trip is to get across the state, but you're staring from Pittsburgh, you'll probably be using US 22 at least as much as I-80. If you're heading towards southeastern PA, you likely won't hit I-80 at all.

If minimizing mileage is your priority, you may well find the Turnpike best after all.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 01:50:03 PM
Yeah, if you are in the Cleveland area and your destination is Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC or Philadelphia, it makes little sense to take I-80. What you save in tolls, you'll burn in gas and time.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on February 09, 2013, 03:56:38 PM
I agree with empirestate. To a roadbuff, the Penn. Tpke. is a destination in itself with its interesting history and construction features. And like most toll-roads there is a system in place to assist you if your car breaks down, which happened to me once. And service areas to stop at. I once drove I-80 from New York to State College enroute to Altoona. And the drive from Scranton west was the most boring ride I ever took. Absolutely nothing to see on I-80. I'll stick with the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 05:35:41 PM
I agree with empirestate. To a roadbuff, the Penn. Tpke. is a destination in itself with its interesting history and construction features. And like most toll-roads there is a system in place to assist you if your car breaks down, which happened to me once. And service areas to stop at. I once drove I-80 from New York to State College enroute to Altoona. And the drive from Scranton west was the most boring ride I ever took. Absolutely nothing to see on I-80. I'll stick with the Turnpike.

I disagree. I enjoy the drive on I-80. I"m most familiar with the section between DuBois and I-81, and I think it's very scenic through the mountains. As for the turnpike, I find it to be long and boring. The part I'm most familiar with is between Breezewood and I-76. Once you get east of the mountains, it's dreadful.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on February 09, 2013, 05:55:18 PM
I agree with empirestate. To a roadbuff, the Penn. Tpke. is a destination in itself with its interesting history and construction features. And like most toll-roads there is a system in place to assist you if your car breaks down, which happened to me once. And service areas to stop at. I once drove I-80 from New York to State College enroute to Altoona. And the drive from Scranton west was the most boring ride I ever took. Absolutely nothing to see on I-80. I'll stick with the Turnpike.

I disagree. I enjoy the drive on I-80. I"m most familiar with the section between DuBois and I-81, and I think it's very scenic through the mountains. As for the turnpike, I find it to be long and boring. The part I'm most familiar with is between Breezewood and I-76. Once you get east of the mountains, it's dreadful.

Now of course, I do also feel that the toll rate on the turnpike has become disproportionately and objectionably high, and I do often shunpike it for that reason. But I have never been one to define "best" as "leaving me with the greatest number of dollars". (If that were so, I'd die of starvation since the "best" way to eat would be not at all!)

I also both agree and disagree with each of the above assessments of the two roads' character. I-80 does have some pretty monotonous sections, particularly the further west you go, but H.B.'s right also that there are some strikingly scenic bits as you wend across the ridge-and-valley province. They do tend to come more in spurts than as an overall characteristic, however.

It's also true that the Turnpike east of the mountains loses much of its scenic charm. And while the more interesting topography is in the western half, I'd also argue that the Turnpike doesn't show off its natural setting as well as it could; it doesn't go harmoniously with its landscape the way that the best Pennsylvania roadways do, which is why I'm so fond of them. But what's most interesting to me about the Turnpike are all the little bits of history it has, particularly on this original section. The more familiar one is with those tidbits, the more enjoyable the trip can be.

I actually like I-78 pretty well, even though it isn't superstar scenery, but it's pleasant and confortable. The part I like the least is the seemingly endless run from one end of the Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton metro area to the other, as it always seems so many miles longer than it ought to. Strangely, this stretch is where the most dramatic topography is found.

And for sheer mind-numbing boredom, I-380 tunes me out every single time.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on February 11, 2013, 04:28:17 PM
Yeah, if you are in the Cleveland area and your destination is Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC or Philadelphia, it makes little sense to take I-80. What you save in tolls, you'll burn in gas and time.
On a return trip from Toledo to Greater Philadelphia circa 1995, my brother & I decided to bypass much of the PA Turnpike by using PA 60 (now I-376)/I-79/I-68/I-70/I-81/US 11 (going through WV & MD) and re-connect in Carlisle.  It added about an hour to our overall travel time but saved us bigtime on tolls even back then.

Heck, for Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC; one wouldn't even need to use the PA Turnpike (I-76) east of I-376 at all.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 11, 2013, 04:32:55 PM
Yeah, if you are in the Cleveland area and your destination is Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC or Philadelphia, it makes little sense to take I-80. What you save in tolls, you'll burn in gas and time.
On a return trip from Toledo to Greater Philadelphia circa 1995, we decided to bypass much of the PA Turnpike by using PA 60 (now I-376)/I-79/I-68/I-70/I-81/US 11 (going through WV & MD) and re-connect in Carlisle.  It added about an hour to our overall travel time but saved us bigtime on tolls even back then.

Heck, for Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC; one wouldn't even need to use the PA Turnpike (I-76) east of I-376 at all.

A variation on that theme (paying some tolls to the PTC, but not nearly as much as the E-W Mainline, and avoiding Breezewood) is I-70 E to Pa. 43 S to I-68 E.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 11, 2013, 10:46:21 PM
Yeah, if you are in the Cleveland area and your destination is Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC or Philadelphia, it makes little sense to take I-80. What you save in tolls, you'll burn in gas and time.
On a return trip from Toledo to Greater Philadelphia circa 1995, my brother & I decided to bypass much of the PA Turnpike by using PA 60 (now I-376)/I-79/I-68/I-70/I-81/US 11 (going through WV & MD) and re-connect in Carlisle.  It added about an hour to our overall travel time but saved us bigtime on tolls even back then.

Heck, for Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC; one wouldn't even need to use the PA Turnpike (I-76) east of I-376 at all.

I've done that going to Philly.  The only trade off is two extra gallons of gas, which offsets half the toll savings.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on February 11, 2013, 11:07:30 PM
Yeah, if you are in the Cleveland area and your destination is Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC or Philadelphia, it makes little sense to take I-80. What you save in tolls, you'll burn in gas and time.

I don't know, I did Harrisburg to Cleveland once via US 322, I-99, and I-80 and it didn't seem that much worse, other than the two lane stretch on US 322.   Google puts this route at 339 miles, while using the Turnpikes is at 330 miles; gas might be a wash over the $25.50 cash/$19.95 transponder toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 15, 2013, 07:01:10 PM
Turnpike Work to Affect Irwin Interchange (http://triblive.com/neighborhoods/yournorwin/yournorwinmore/3472174-74/project-turnpike-bridges)

Preliminary work on the Exit 57 to Exit 67 section is expected to begin in 2015 or 2016 with construction starting on the first five miles in 2018 or 2019.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 17, 2013, 12:55:44 AM
Yeah, if you are in the Cleveland area and your destination is Harrisburg, Baltimore/DC or Philadelphia, it makes little sense to take I-80. What you save in tolls, you'll burn in gas and time.
Among my first road memories is my father driving us (mom, me, and eventually one of my younger brothers) from Geauga County (east of Cleveland) to the Philly Main Line (where my mom's family lived [and still do]) via (US 322 E to Oh 11 S to) I-80 and the NE PA Tpk Ext.
It wasn't till after I started school (and started being interested in roads) that he changed the route and picked up the Oh Tpk, near Warren and follow I-80/76 to Valley Forge.
It was 30 miles longer (for us) to follow I-80 and NE Ext from Cleveland to Philly instead of using the mainline turnpikes. Someone else can do the math concerning the differences in fuel and tolls, between 1975-81, for the two routes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on February 17, 2013, 01:44:44 AM
I had many trips from Norfolk to Pittsburgh 1991-1996 and after an insane initial trip using I-64 to US 250 in Staunton to WVA to US 119 to I-79, my next trip was standard DC to Breezwood to Pittsburgh, very stressful and expensive, so I tried Hancock to I-68 to US 40 to Uniontown to Brownsville to I-70 to 79, no stress, no traffic, no tolls, and it took the exact same time and the same gas.  Never used the pike again.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on February 17, 2013, 12:53:41 PM
Turnpike Work to Affect Irwin Interchange (http://triblive.com/neighborhoods/yournorwin/yournorwinmore/3472174-74/project-turnpike-bridges)

Preliminary work on the Exit 57 to Exit 67 section is expected to begin in 2015 or 2016 with construction starting on the first five miles in 2018 or 2019.

Good to know, though I was hoping it wasn't going to be quite so far off.  I figured the preliminary work of replacing overpasses wouldn't have taken so long for this stretch, since they just replaced the PA-130 overpass, leaving only 3 more.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2013, 03:59:32 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike - eight charged with corruption including ex-chair Rubin, ex-CEO Brimmeier, ex-COO Hatalowich (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6461)

Quote
2013-03-13: The state attorney general Kathleen Kane has filed criminal charges against five officers of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, two vendors and a leading Democrat state senator in so-called pay-to-play corruption. This follows a couple of years of a grand jury and police investigations. The attorney general said that a "pay-to-play culture permeated" the turnpike.

Quote
The Grand Jury 'presentment' summarizes: "The Grand Jury finds a prima facie case that these individuals, both individually and in concert with one another, committed and attempted to commit a series of crimes, including illegal bid-rigging, commercial bribery, conflict of interest, theft by unlawful taking, theft by deception, criminal conspiracy, and acted as a corrupt organization.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 13, 2013, 05:48:39 PM
PA Turnpike CEO Comments on PA Attorney General's News Announcement about Grand Jury Investigation (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130313122449.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 14, 2013, 10:56:58 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Corporate crime - the Turnpike and a personal reminiscence (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6462)

Quote
Of the people charged by PA Attorney General I really only know Joe Brimmeier. I met him quite a number of times when he was CEO and talked on the telephone more. He's intelligent, capable and fun to be with. I liked the guy. He never gave me the impression he was uninterested in the service the Turnpike provided to the public or in improvements to it, and was informed and talked intelligently about the issues of the day - where traffic volumes seemed to be going, moving into electronic toll collection, new projects like the Mon Fayette Expressway, widening, E-ZPass.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 16, 2013, 01:18:58 PM
USA Today: Two dead, 14 injured after tour bus crash in Pa. - Seton Hill University's women's lacrosse team, including 23 players and three coaches, was aboard during the crash. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/16/tour-bus-crashes-in-pa-serious-injuries-reported/1992577/)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 23, 2013, 01:00:57 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike Commissioner William Lincoln resigns citing stress of racketeering charges against colleagues (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6476)

Quote
2013-03-22: Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission secretary/treasurer J William Lincoln resigned today citing as reason the "additional personal stress over the events of the past two weeks" and unspecified health problems. The past two weeks saw culmination of a nearly four year grand jury investigation into racketeering at the Turnpike, and a heap of criminal charges against several close colleagues.

Quote
Turnpike chairman William Lieberman is quoted: "We respect (Mr) Lincoln’s decision to resign; given the circumstances, he made the right choice."

Quote
Lincoln, 72, was on the 5-person Turnpike Commission for eight years. His testimony to the grand jury was key to building the Attorney General's case against Lincoln's colleagues - Rubin, Hatalowich, Brimmeier. He presented an insider's description of the ring which systematically steered contracts and jobs to politically supportive companies and people in complete contravention of competitive procurement and proper hiring practices.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 23, 2013, 07:39:50 PM
What's real bad also is that about a month or so ago, Bland, CEO of PAT (Port Authority Transit, Pittsburgh) was fired by the Allegheny County Commisioners so they (and one commissioner in particular pushed this) could get their buddy Brimmeyer in as PAT CEO, it was a done deal until the indictmnets hit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 25, 2013, 06:51:15 PM
What's real bad also is that about a month or so ago, Bland, CEO of PAT (Port Authority Transit, Pittsburgh) was fired by the Allegheny County Commisioners so they (and one commissioner in particular pushed this) could get their buddy Brimmeyer in as PAT CEO, it was a done deal until the indictmnets hit.

Probably not nearly as easy to run the Port Authority of Allegheny County as it is to run the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, given that the Turnpike collects vast sums of money (and gives a fair amount of it away to PennDOT, SEPTA and the PAT) - but very nearly all transit agencies in the United States are profoundly dependent  on subsidies from non-transit sources. 

I would assume that the union(s) representing  PAT hourly employees are more militant than those that work for the Turnpike (but I am not sure of that).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 25, 2013, 06:53:35 PM
TOLLROADSnews (from one of its correspondents):  Road work signs bonanza on Penn Pike (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6478)

Quote
- from a correspondent:

Quote
The wealthiest entrepreneur in Pennsylvania has to be the producer of “Road Work”  signs.  I have just driven from western Maryland to New Jersey — most of this along the Penna turnpike — and there are thousands of them.

Quote
“Roadwork in 2 miles”  “Roadwork in 1 mile”  “Form One Lane”  “Prepare to Stop”  “Trucks entering”  “Fines doubled in Work Area”  and on and on. These are all in an aggressive black sans-serif type on a showy orange background, and some even have little lights flashing on and off.

Quote
Very impressive.

Quote
There were many opportunities to be impressed on the turnpike for no sooner did you leave one Work Zone, than you entered another.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on April 01, 2013, 10:37:01 PM
Maybe this is something I've never noticed, but does anyone know if the E-ZPass lanes on the Turnpike photograph everyone's license plates?  The reason I asked is I used the new PA 29 all-ETC interchange last night.  As I went under the gantry, I noticed the LED floodlights flashed after I went through.  The same thing happened to the car behind me.  I have E-ZPass and know it is in working order.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mtantillo on April 01, 2013, 10:41:16 PM
Maybe this is something I've never noticed, but does anyone know if the E-ZPass lanes on the Turnpike photograph everyone's license plates?  The reason I asked is I used the new PA 29 all-ETC interchange last night.  As I went under the gantry, I noticed the LED floodlights flashed after I went through.  The same thing happened to the car behind me.  I have E-ZPass and know it is in working order.

Yes, they do photograph everyone.  This because if you have a valid E-ZPass tag, the transaction can still fail (if you don't have enough money, etc.).  So they know who to send the bill to if that happens.  Allegedly, toll agencies delete the images after a successful E-ZPass transaction is processed. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 01, 2013, 11:03:20 PM
Yes, they do photograph everyone.  This because if you have a valid E-ZPass tag, the transaction can still fail (if you don't have enough money, etc.).  So they know who to send the bill to if that happens.  Allegedly, toll agencies delete the images after a successful E-ZPass transaction is processed. 

I would think that for PTC-issued E-ZPass transponders, that would presumably be a pretty instant transaction. 

For non-PTC E-ZPass tags, don't they do a "settlement" on a daily basis?  At least that's how I have been told that E-ZPass works when it comes to "foreign" transponders (there are at least two other E-ZPass Group members in Pennsylvania (DRJTBC and DRPA), though I don't know if those issue their own tags (and run their own back office operations) or not).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on April 02, 2013, 10:55:21 AM
Maybe this is something I've never noticed, but does anyone know if the E-ZPass lanes on the Turnpike photograph everyone's license plates?  The reason I asked is I used the new PA 29 all-ETC interchange last night.  As I went under the gantry, I noticed the LED floodlights flashed after I went through.  The same thing happened to the car behind me.  I have E-ZPass and know it is in working order.

Yes, they do photograph everyone.  This because if you have a valid E-ZPass tag, the transaction can still fail (if you don't have enough money, etc.).  So they know who to send the bill to if that happens.  Allegedly, toll agencies delete the images after a successful E-ZPass transaction is processed.

It's been about three years ago, but I had two E-ZPass transactions fail in Pennsylvania. Instead of a bill, I got a threatening letter that I had improperly used an E-ZPass only exit lane. They got my Kentucky registration information off my license plate and tracked me down. I printed out a copy of my West Virginia E-ZPass statement and mailed to them, and that settled the matter.

At the time, I had a standard-issue Kentucky passenger vehicle license plate. Now I have one of the special-issue plates (Spay/Neuter) and I'm not sure how well an out-of-state agency could read and decipher the plate number (since it has small letters stacked on top of one another) to get the information to send out a bill.

And I'm still waiting on my bill from the Bush Turnpike in Texas in from a few years ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on April 03, 2013, 07:02:05 PM
Noticed the northbound (original) Lehigh Tunnel Tube has what appear to be four LED fixtures at the mid-point that are replacing the standard (fluorescent?) lighting... I wonder if this is a pilot? The southbound tube has no such change.

There is a noticeable change going through that segment, though it can't represent more than 25-50 feet of length...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on April 08, 2013, 05:40:51 PM
At the time, I had a standard-issue Kentucky passenger vehicle license plate. Now I have one of the special-issue plates (Spay/Neuter) and I'm not sure how well an out-of-state agency could read and decipher the plate number (since it has small letters stacked on top of one another) to get the information to send out a bill.

All 50 states' license plate variations and fonts are kept updated within the system, so it would be able to recognize your Spay/Neuter plate as Kentucky and read the digits accordingly. Because of the small digits, it would probably kick over to a manual operator for verification, who would then zoom in to confirm. Each state's use of O, D, 0; B, 8; I, 1; etc. are all documented, so the manual operator can verify what possible digits are in which position.

(On a side note, if you want to really fuck with toll operators, get a custom license plate that looks like a typical issue from your state, but drop a 0 in a letter spot and an I in a number spot.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on April 08, 2013, 06:07:46 PM
....

(On a side note, if you want to really fuck with toll operators, get a custom license plate that looks like a typical issue from your state, but drop a 0 in a letter spot and an I in a number spot.)

Or do like a high school friend of mine did and get a license-plate frame that obscures part of one digit (in his case, an "E" looked like an "F" unless you saw the unobstructed front plate). The legality of doing that is obviously suspect, but he never complained about getting a ticket (and he was the sort of person who would have complained).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 08, 2013, 06:25:34 PM
TOLLROADSnews: A Penn Pike 'WORKER' is angry with our "road signs bonanza" piece + our response on MPT (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6494)

Quote
An angry Penn Pike worker writes - You have nothing nice to say ever about the PA Turnpike. You didn't find it newsworthy that one of my coworkers was KILLED in the line of duty in October 2012. And you print an article from a motorist who said we stand around and do nothing. You are truly clueless. You didn't think this was newsworthy on your site?

Quote
You sir are a total (profanity.)

Quote
1,000 toll collectors are going to lose their jobs and you are all for it. These are people who have families to support.

Quote
You only publish news that is detrimental to the PA Turnpike. Not that the maintenance WORKERS have a very dangerous job. You just publish that we stand around and do nothing. You have no idea that personnel are NEEDED to provide MPT to our WORKERS. I'll bet you don't know what MPT means. You sit at a desk all day and publish things you know NOTHING about.

Quote
Have you ever worked on a highway? Where people don't abide by the work zone speed limits and put my life in danger every day? Yet you publish an article to make PA Turnpike workers look lazy, standing around doing nothing.

Quote
You are a clueless idiot. You had no rebuttal to this article
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 08, 2013, 06:27:21 PM
(On a side note, if you want to really fuck with toll operators, get a custom license plate that looks like a typical issue from your state, but drop a 0 in a letter spot and an I in a number spot.)

My own experience with  LPR hardware and software leads me to think that swapping a "1" for an "I" (or vice versa - and not every state issues "regular" series of tags with the letter "I") would cause similar problems in some cases.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 12, 2013, 02:28:43 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Moody's follows other raters in downgrading Penn Pike bonds (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6505)

Quote
Moody's is lowering the rating on senior revenue bonds from Aa3 to A1, citing ballooning debt being incurred to subsidize transit and free roads in the state along with traffic and revenue "underperformance" despite higher than assumed toll increases. The Turnpike is required by a state law (Act 44)  it proposed  in 2007 to head off privatization to contribute $450m/year in grants to lossmaking transit and untolled roads. The state's auditor general has said repeatedly that unless Act 44 is  repealed it will force the Turnpike to become insolvent and renege on its debts.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 12, 2013, 03:02:47 PM
(On a side note, if you want to really fuck with toll operators, get a custom license plate that looks like a typical issue from your state, but drop a 0 in a letter spot and an I in a number spot.)

I believe California strictly prohibits this.  if I wanted, say, 6T0C591, where that is a zero instead of the O, then they would note that it too closely resembles an issued, potentially issued, planned to be issued, etc plate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 12, 2013, 03:05:43 PM
TOLLROADSnews: A Penn Pike 'WORKER' is angry with our "road signs bonanza" piece + our response on MPT (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6494)


what is MPT?  is it a variant of the Pennsylvania Turnpike which has sexual relations with one's immediate female ancestor?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on April 12, 2013, 03:36:56 PM
what is MPT?
Acronym for Maintenance and Protection of Traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 12, 2013, 04:13:25 PM
Quote
You sir are a total (profanity.)

I really wish I weren't a total zounds.  but, some days it's just how it goes.

(that dude really needs to learn how to write.  he reminds me of such erstwhile forum brilliants as Ethan Man and SR-641.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on April 12, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
Quote
You sir are a total (profanity.)

I really wish I weren't a total zounds.  but, some days it's just how it goes.

(that dude really needs to learn how to write.  he reminds me of such erstwhile forum brilliants as Ethan Man and SR-641.)
Some days you feel like an (Almond Joy), some days you (zounds)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: yakra on April 13, 2013, 02:17:53 PM
"A cat can say 'Zounds', or 'Hubba hubba', or 'Veet-o-voutee!'"
 -Geetz Romo (http://howtospeakhip.com/)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 13, 2013, 04:28:19 PM
There is a new widening/reconstruction segment site listing at the PA Pike website.  I am too lazy to post the link, but it is in Harrisburg from I-83 to the Susquehanna Bridge.  When complete, it will give you 6 lanes with widened median from 83 to 283.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 13, 2013, 07:24:48 PM
There is a new widening/reconstruction segment site listing at the PA Pike website.  I am too lazy to post the link, but it is in Harrisburg from I-83 to the Susquehanna Bridge.  When complete, it will give you 6 lanes with widened median from 83 to 283.

This sounds like it: Milepost 242-245: Project Overview (http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/mp242to245/)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on April 17, 2013, 05:32:35 PM
Plan Would Eliminate Pa. Turnpike Commission (http://www.wgal.com/news/susquehanna-valley/state/Plan-would-eliminate-Pa-Turnpike-Commission/-/9758860/19785950/-/eqeifpz/-/index.html?absolute=true)

Governor Thornburgh tried to do just that back in the mid-80s.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on April 17, 2013, 08:51:16 PM
Given all the breezewoods and Act 44, PennDOT controlling the PTC could only be a good thing, even if it is PennDOT.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on April 18, 2013, 11:15:41 AM
I wonder what would happen to ACT44 if they merged operations? Would the fact that there's no more PTC mean that any obligations to the state by the PTC are null and void? My biggest concern would be that they'd be raiding the toll dollars even more heavily than they are now to fund other projects. Toll roads should pay for themselves, not for the entire road system of the state. If you don't have enough money to fund the state's other roads, then you need to raise taxes or find another way (such as a higher gas tax) to pay for it.
Of course this also works under the assumption that there's less corruption in the state government than there is/was in the PTC... an idea I find laughable at best.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on April 18, 2013, 11:24:37 AM
Act 44 would just be a check to themselves, so it would essentially be void (other than the transit subsidies; not sure if those are PennDOT or not); the Turnpike would also get maintenance out of the general fund and not just tolls though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 18, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
Not that this would be anywhere near a good idea, but would this enable PennDot to toll any limited acccess facilities in PA without fed approval, like say US 219
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 02:43:51 PM
Not that this would be anywhere near a good idea, but would this enable PennDot to toll any limited acccess facilities in PA without fed approval, like say US 219

No, not if PennDOT accepted federal dollars for construction, reconstruction or other activities, then federal approval would still be needed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 02:59:33 PM
Plan Would Eliminate Pa. Turnpike Commission (http://www.wgal.com/news/susquehanna-valley/state/Plan-would-eliminate-Pa-Turnpike-Commission/-/9758860/19785950/-/eqeifpz/-/index.html?absolute=true)

Governor Thornburgh tried to do just that back in the mid-80s.

TOLLROADSnews: Bill to abolish Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission introduced by Republicans into state legislature (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6514)

Quote
HB1197 introduced in the state legislature today by Republicans would abolish the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission turning its storied turnpike over to the state DOT. The bill's prime sponsor was state Representative and deputy Whip Donna Oberlander from Clarion in the northwest of the state. Taking to a microphone with about a dozen other Republican politicians in the state house she unleashed a scathing attack on the Turnpike saying it was "corruption infested" in a reference to a recent grand jury account of wrongdoing and criminal charges against a politicians two top Turnpike officials, a board member and two contractors.

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Her bill would in its own wording set up a "Bureau of Toll Administration within the Department of Transportation; providing for the assumption by the Department of Transportation of the functions of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, for assumption by the Commonwealth of the financing functions of the commission, for transfer to the Department of Transportation and State Treasurer of land, buildings, personal property and employees of the commission, for the abolition of the commission and the offices of Turnpike Commissioner; and making an inconsistent repeal of various acts relating to the Pennsylvania Turnpike."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on April 18, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
Quote
Her bill would in its own wording set up a "Bureau of Toll Administration within the Department of Transportation; providing for the assumption by the Department of Transportation of the functions of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, for assumption by the Commonwealth of the financing functions of the commission, for transfer to the Department of Transportation and State Treasurer of land, buildings, personal property and employees of the commission, for the abolition of the commission and the offices of Turnpike Commissioner; and making an inconsistent repeal of various acts relating to the Pennsylvania Turnpike."

In other words, we want to replace one bureaucracy with another one (or expand the powers of an existing one, at any rate). Can't we just repeal ACT 44 without all this shuffling, which will save us absolutely zilch in the long run? It's not like they're going to really eliminate any of the high-paying positions which really cost us money during this process; rather, they'll just be redistributed to other parts of government.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on April 18, 2013, 11:09:11 PM
I would be in favor of eliminating the PTC and merging it with PennDOT. I think having all highways in a state under control of one agency is a good idea. It also might result in some freeway-to-freeway interchanges being built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on April 19, 2013, 11:40:19 AM
Quote
Her bill would in its own wording set up a "Bureau of Toll Administration within the Department of Transportation; providing for the assumption by the Department of Transportation of the functions of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, for assumption by the Commonwealth of the financing functions of the commission, for transfer to the Department of Transportation and State Treasurer of land, buildings, personal property and employees of the commission, for the abolition of the commission and the offices of Turnpike Commissioner; and making an inconsistent repeal of various acts relating to the Pennsylvania Turnpike."

In other words, we want to replace one bureaucracy with another one (or expand the powers of an existing one, at any rate). Can't we just repeal ACT 44 without all this shuffling, which will save us absolutely zilch in the long run? It's not like they're going to really eliminate any of the high-paying positions which really cost us money during this process; rather, they'll just be redistributed to other parts of government.
There's a non-monetary benefit to this too: elimination of all the breezewoods across the state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on April 19, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
There's a non-monetary benefit to this too: elimination of all the breezewoods across the state.

Doesn't that assume that PennDOT actually has the desire and money to build it? They still won't get federal funding to do it, since I doubt they're going to eliminate the tolls on the Turnpike. If this does happen, I doubt anything is going to change in the short term. At best, they'll keep the status quo; at worst, more toll dollars will get redirected to the state's general fund, which will hurt the Turnpike even more in the end.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on April 19, 2013, 02:24:04 PM
Can't we just repeal ACT 44 without all this shuffling, which will save us absolutely zilch in the long run? It's not like they're going to really eliminate any of the high-paying positions which really cost us money during this process; rather, they'll just be redistributed to other parts of government.

I agree with the repealing Act 44, regardless of how this proposal goes down (and if it does, I hope the line "making an inconsistent repeal of various acts relating to the Pennsylvania Turnpike." includes Act 44. 
That being said, I disagree that this proposal will save "absolutely zilch".  While I'm sure pretty much all aspects/levels/departments of government have inefficiencies and corruption, it really does seem like the PTC takes the cake.  And while merging it with PennDOT won't be some kind of magic bullet, it does seem like it would remove a good bit of redundancy.

Though, to give the PTC a little credit, it does seem they're better with winter maintenance, maintaining 4 lanes of traffic even during pretty massive reconstruction projects, while many PennDOT projects will see freeways down to one lane in each direction sharing a carriageway (The nature of the design of the Turnpike does make it easier, being one "ribbon" of pavement, as opposed to 2 separated by a bunch of grass)... And I'd hate to see the 3-laning projects in jeopardy.

There's a non-monetary benefit to this too: elimination of all the breezewoods across the state.
Doesn't that assume that PennDOT actually has the desire and money to build it? They still won't get federal funding to do it, since I doubt they're going to eliminate the tolls on the Turnpike.

I also wouldn't assume there would be an elimination of all the "Breezewoods" either just because PennDOT starts running the PTC.  It would be nice though.
Actually, not counting local opposition, Breezewood would probably be the easiest.  For sake of federal funding concerns, PennDOT could just transfer the "Original Turnpike" connector route to it's general non-toll supported rolls, with the current toll booths being the line of demarcation, and build the 2 simple ramps from "free" I-70. 

Of course, this is all "cart-before-the-horse" stuff.  There always seems to be some kind of plans to do something drastic with the PTC every couple of years (kind of like attempts to toll I-80), and yet the status quo remains.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on April 20, 2013, 12:05:14 PM
I never said anything about immediacy, but my understanding is that the core reason for the breezewoods (other than, well, breezewood itself) is the inability for PennDOT and the PTC to work together on anything.  I'm surprised the feds haven't started withholding funding for NOT having them fixed, actually.  This doesn't seem to be an issue for any other state that has toll roads.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on April 20, 2013, 12:25:29 PM
All things being equal, in a perfect world, it would be nice to have the Breezewoods fixed. In this state, however, there are more than 4,000 deficient bridges that I would really rather PennDOT prioritize with any funding it has...

I've always heard that Breezewood businesses used their "power" to block the direct connect. Eliminating PTC for PennDOT will hardly change that...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: deathtopumpkins on April 20, 2013, 01:51:03 PM
This doesn't seem to be an issue for any other state that has toll roads.

Oh but it is.

Florida has some pretty egregious examples:

New Jersey has the classic NJTP/NJ 42 crossing, along with I-295 and I-276, but that's not too bad.

New York has only a few that I consider a problem:

Ohio has:

I know there are a fair few more in Illinois, and maybe some others in Texas, Oklahoma, California, and elsewhere, plus many more interchanges that are incredibly screwed up or outdated, and by no means is this a comprehensive list.
But while yes, Pennsylvania takes the cake, there are plenty of other egregious missing interchanges in other states
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on April 20, 2013, 02:13:23 PM
How many are there between non-tolled freeways? Texas probably has a bunch where they haven't yet built flyovers. And don't forget I-40 east to I-27 south.

There's also I-76/I-376, where both roads are PTC-maintained. But it's not a strict 'breezewood' in that there are no businesses on the connection - it's more like a three-level diamond where everything is access-controlled but there's a light along the way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on April 20, 2013, 02:52:36 PM
There's also I-76/I-376, where both roads are PTC-maintained. But it's not a strict 'breezewood' in that there are no businesses on the connection - it's more like a three-level diamond where everything is access-controlled but there's a light along the way.

Unless they've changed it in the last two years, there's only a STOP sign that traffic from I-76 to WB (actual NB) I-376 has to deal with, no signal.

But that interchange is just an example how the PTC apparently values "local access".  And in the [west] I-76/376 JCT, there was never even any prior access to PA 351.  The "Cranberry Connector" could have been a simple double trumpet between I-76 & I-79, but since they wanted their direct connection to US-19 as well (which is a good idea), the end result is a jumble of ramps in a fairly tight space.  When they rebuilt the interchange with the US-222 freeway, they still maintained a connection with the old road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on April 21, 2013, 11:00:56 AM
I've always heard that Breezewood businesses used their "power" to block the direct connect. Eliminating PTC for PennDOT will hardly change that...
That is true of the I-70 breezewood that the term comes from, but none of the others.

This doesn't seem to be an issue for any other state that has toll roads.

Oh but it is.

Florida has some pretty egregious examples:
  • Turnpike at 417 has no interchange whatsoever.
  • Turnpike at 528 has 2 direct ramps, but movements such as Turnpike north to 528 west (a very logical route for people to want to take given that SeaWorld and the huge Orange County Convention Center, not to mention an abundance of hotels, are located to the west along 528) requires you to take the loop ramp at the US 17/92/441 end of the double trumpet, then a right turn, then a left turn. 2.4 miles from exiting the Turnpike to merging onto 528.
  • Turnpike at 95 has no direct ramps any of the 3 times they meet except at Golden Glades (connection can be made at Fort Pierce using ¾ mi of FL 70).

New Jersey has the classic NJTP/NJ 42 crossing, along with I-295 and I-276, but that's not too bad.

New York has only a few that I consider a problem:
  • Thruway at US 209 (all movements must be made via NY 28 at the same interchange as I-587, which is a subject of its own.
  • Thruway at NY 23 (not a freeway, but still quite a nuisance of an interchange - all movements must be made via exiting onto a county road)

Ohio has:
  • Turnpike at OH 11
  • Turnpike at I-271
  • Turnpike at I-475

I know there are a fair few more in Illinois, and maybe some others in Texas, Oklahoma, California, and elsewhere, plus many more interchanges that are incredibly screwed up or outdated, and by no means is this a comprehensive list.
But while yes, Pennsylvania takes the cake, there are plenty of other egregious missing interchanges in other states
With the exception of two in Ohio and I-95/295 on the NJ Turnpike Extension, NONE of these are interstate-interstate connections.  Some comments:
-I've never considered either of those Thruway mentions to be a problem.  Neither is a major freeway in any case.  I can think of plenty of examples of getting from a freeway to another state route the exit is for by way of a lower classified road that don't involve toll roads, so it's hardly unique to toll agencies.
-OH Turnpike at I-271 isn't really a major connection with the interstate connections on either side within a couple mines and would be difficult to build due to the terrain
-OH Turnpike at OH 11 is only an issue westbound; eastbound, just hop on I-80.
-NJ Turnpike Extension at I-295 is unfortunate but understandable, and I-195 serves in that capacity anyways
-NJ Turnpike at AC Expressway will be less of an issue when the missing movements are I-295 are built; note that neither of these freeways are interstates.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Sammer on April 23, 2013, 03:05:36 PM
I'm surprised the feds haven't started withholding funding for NOT having them fixed, actually. 
Actually former federal law was the core reason why the "Breezewoods" happened in the first place so the feds wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they tried to withhold PA's highway funds because of them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2013, 05:34:56 PM
I'm surprised the feds haven't started withholding funding for NOT having them fixed, actually. 
Actually former federal law was the core reason why the "Breezewoods" happened in the first place so the feds wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they tried to withhold PA's highway funds because of them.

IMO, what Congress should do is:

(1) Deny federal tax advantages to the bonds issued by any state, county or municipal toll road authority that:  (a) fails to remediate all breezewoods; (b) fails to accept the prevailing electronic toll payment method for the state in which it is located; and (c) has a discriminatory toll rate schedule that charges higher tolls for out-of-state or out-of-region transponders (with exceptions for places like Staten Island, N.Y. where drivers must cross a toll bridge to get on  or off their island).

(2) Since the feds are at least in part to blame for breezewoods, Congress should offer 100% federal funding for all breezewood remediation projects.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on April 23, 2013, 05:59:49 PM
(2) Since the feds are at least in part to blame for breezewoods, Congress should offer 100% federal funding for all breezewood remediation projects.

Are the toll facilities still on the hook (by law) for interchanges with federally funded highways? I thought that was the way it currently was. If so, then maybe offering to do the usual 90/10 split for Interstates would be incentive enough.

Speaking of funding, isn't the I-95/Turnpike interchange project being at least partially funded by the feds? I realize that's a special case (the completion of 95 being written into law, I believe), but it's not like it's unprecedented for "free" Interstate tax dollars to be used for toll roads. I suppose you could say they cheated since that interchange will occur in an untolled no-mans-land once they move the barrier tolls further west (the only remaining toll being the one way bridge toll, which has plenty of precedence on the "free" Interstate system).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2013, 07:49:48 PM
With the exception of two in Ohio and I-95/295 on the NJ Turnpike Extension, NONE of these are interstate-interstate connections.

Ah, see, I don't see it as any more egregious for an interstate to have a missing interchange than a state/US/unnumbered freeway. The only difference in the roads is the color of the shield on it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Sammer on April 23, 2013, 09:17:26 PM
Are the toll facilities still on the hook (by law) for interchanges with federally funded highways? I thought that was the way it currently was. If so, then maybe offering to do the usual 90/10 split for Interstates would be incentive enough.
No the toll facilities aren't necessarily still on the hook anymore (Congress now encourages toll roads) and the usual 90/10 split ended a couple decades ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on April 24, 2013, 11:53:54 AM
I'm surprised the feds haven't started withholding funding for NOT having them fixed, actually. 
Actually former federal law was the core reason why the "Breezewoods" happened in the first place so the feds wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they tried to withhold PA's highway funds because of them.
Said "federal law" appears to apply only to PA; in any case, from what I've read about it, that law is possible to comply with without creating a bunch of breezewoods (just look at the I-84/I-87 interchange to see how it's done).  They're just lazy.

With the exception of two in Ohio and I-95/295 on the NJ Turnpike Extension, NONE of these are interstate-interstate connections.

Ah, see, I don't see it as any more egregious for an interstate to have a missing interchange than a state/US/unnumbered freeway. The only difference in the roads is the color of the shield on it.
I tend to think of the interstates as a coherent system rather than just a brand name.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mtantillo on April 24, 2013, 12:28:31 PM
I'm surprised the feds haven't started withholding funding for NOT having them fixed, actually. 
Actually former federal law was the core reason why the "Breezewoods" happened in the first place so the feds wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they tried to withhold PA's highway funds because of them.
Said "federal law" appears to apply only to PA; in any case, from what I've read about it, that law is possible to comply with without creating a bunch of breezewoods (just look at the I-84/I-87 interchange to see how it's done).  They're just lazy.

With the exception of two in Ohio and I-95/295 on the NJ Turnpike Extension, NONE of these are interstate-interstate connections.

Ah, see, I don't see it as any more egregious for an interstate to have a missing interchange than a state/US/unnumbered freeway. The only difference in the roads is the color of the shield on it.
I tend to think of the interstates as a coherent system rather than just a brand name.

Correct, and FHWA wants all movements present at interchanges, even movements that "don't make sense" from the perspective of long distance traffic, but would be used by local traffic. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 24, 2013, 01:35:26 PM
I'm surprised the feds haven't started withholding funding for NOT having them fixed, actually. 
Actually former federal law was the core reason why the "Breezewoods" happened in the first place so the feds wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they tried to withhold PA's highway funds because of them.
Said "federal law" appears to apply only to PA; in any case, from what I've read about it, that law is possible to comply with without creating a bunch of breezewoods (just look at the I-84/I-87 interchange to see how it's done).  They're just lazy.

In general, the law is just going to apply to the Northeast.  That area of the country was first with limited access highways, which were in the form of toll roads.  Other than Kansas, the rest of the country didn't have toll roads, so there wasn't an issue of providing an interchange with an existing toll road.

Because of the interstate highway layout, there aren't a whole lot of interstate highways that crossed an existing toll road in the Northeast. (Please don't point out every instance where it does)  PA just happens to be a state where the existing toll road intersected some of the new interstate highways back at the onset of the interstate highway system, and created the few situations where an interstate highway does not have a direct interchange with the toll road, which at the time was proper. 

Besides, the feds are probably not going to want to put themselves in a position where they would withhold money if a direct interchange wasn't provided, because the state would be permitted to ask the feds for money to help pay for the interchange...money which the feds simply don't have available to hand out.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 24, 2013, 04:02:15 PM
(2) Since the feds are at least in part to blame for breezewoods, Congress should offer 100% federal funding for all breezewood remediation projects.

Are the toll facilities still on the hook (by law) for interchanges with federally funded highways? I thought that was the way it currently was. If so, then maybe offering to do the usual 90/10 split for Interstates would be incentive enough.

They used to be.  But a law mandating remediation of breezewoods could be written in such a way as to waive most federal requirements associated with federal  funding of highways from applying in the case of closing these gaps in the highway network.

Speaking of funding, isn't the I-95/Turnpike interchange project being at least partially funded by the feds? I realize that's a special case (the completion of 95 being written into law, I believe), but it's not like it's unprecedented for "free" Interstate tax dollars to be used for toll roads. I suppose you could say they cheated since that interchange will occur in an untolled no-mans-land once they move the barrier tolls further west (the only remaining toll being the one way bridge toll, which has plenty of precedence on the "free" Interstate system).

I believe the I-95 to the E-W mainline interchange project is getting some federal dollars.

That is not without precedent either.  The federal government funded most of the cost of building the Fort McHenry Tunnel, yet Maryland is allowed to collect tolls from traffic using it.

The land under the Dulles Toll Road (Va. 267) was purchased by the Federal Aviation Administration in the late 1950's or early 1960's, yet Virginia was allowed to build a toll road on that land.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 27, 2013, 01:06:34 AM
I viewed the PTC Construction Projects page tonight and noted 2 new project sites.  Both are a bit far in the future, with 2017 starts, but at least show they are moving forward.  Both are full rebuilds to 6 lanes with wide median.  They are:

MP 57-76 (Monroeville to Irwin)
MP 149-155 (Looks to be just east of Midway to just south of Everett)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 27, 2013, 01:08:42 AM
There is also some good progress pics of bridge demolition on the MP 41-48 reconstruction site.
Middle Road (that I drove over frequently last June) and the  PA 910 eastern bridge gone.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on May 09, 2013, 07:29:36 PM
PA Turnpike Will Continue Spending Thousands on Outdated Call Boxes (http://www.wtae.com/news/local/pa-turnpike-will-continue-spending-thousands-on-outdated-call-boxes/-/9681086/20072270/-/1vwdmez/-/index.html)

Not all segments of the Turnpike System have them.  The newest segments, Turnpike 576 and Turnpike 43 from Uniontown to Brownsville, do not have them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on May 10, 2013, 09:10:37 AM
PA Turnpike Will Continue Spending Thousands on Outdated Call Boxes (http://www.wtae.com/news/local/pa-turnpike-will-continue-spending-thousands-on-outdated-call-boxes/-/9681086/20072270/-/1vwdmez/-/index.html)

Not all segments of the Turnpike System have them.  The newest segments, Turnpike 576 and Turnpike 43 from Uniontown to Brownsville, do not have them.

They're required by law? Did law require any PennDOT freeways to have them? Either way, other states have been phasing them out of late, so I wouldn't be against the PTC following suit, assuming they were allowed to do so.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 10, 2013, 01:17:10 PM
They're required by law? Did law require any PennDOT freeways to have them?
The linked-article implies that the law only applied to highways that existed in the PTC system at the time it was enacted.  Such probably explains why Turnpikes 43 & 576 do not have them.  To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen any PennDOT highway w/any call boxes.

That said, I do believe that most of the call boxes could probably be taken down (an amendment/repeal of the original law would need to be enacted).  I agree that having them every mile along the entire stretch is overkill and a waste of money.  OTOH, there are areas where their existence is still warranted.  The ones I would keep would be in areas where there's a very long distance between interchanges or service plazas and in areas known to have either weak cell service or 'dead zones'.  While cell phones have improved by leaps and bounds over the last decade, they're not infallible.

From the linked-article:

"There’s no need for it. Everyone has a cellphone and if you don't certainly someone driving by will have a cellphone,”  Lawrence said.

I don't agree 100%.  If one breaks down late at night in the middle of nowhere, not everybody one's flagging for help will necessarily stop.

Maybe it might be cheaper to ditch the call boxes and provide SEND HELP signs at toll & service plazas.  :sombrero:
   
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on May 10, 2013, 01:33:59 PM
If one breaks down late at night in the middle of nowhere, not everybody one's flagging for help will necessarily stop.

then flag someone else.

I've been in those sorts of situations before, from Norway to Mexico to Colorado to everywhere in between... my average is about 3 cars before someone stops.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on May 10, 2013, 05:59:41 PM
To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen any PennDOT highway w/any call boxes.

Interstate 80 had them in the late 60s between Milton and Stroudsburg with plans to expand the system to all Interstates, especially in rural areas.  Interstate 81 had them from mile markers 108 to 158 in Schuylkill and Luzerne counties in the early part of the last decade.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 10, 2013, 07:44:20 PM
To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen any PennDOT highway w/any call boxes.

Interstate 80 had them in the late 60s between Milton and Stroudsburg with plans to expand the system to all Interstates, especially in rural areas.

Last time I was on I-80 in Pennsylvania was in the early 1970's (!) [I was not driving], and there were indeed call boxes - at least between I-81 near Hazelton and U.S. 209 (north) in Stroudsburg.

The call box units caught my attention because the Maryland part of the Capital Beltway had similar units from the 1960's through the 1980's. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 16, 2013, 11:12:39 PM
Just noticed a bill to raise Turnpike speeds to 70 MPH has been re-introduced in the PA House

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2013&sind=0&body=H&type=B&bn=932
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 17, 2013, 11:16:54 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike's deal to borrow low from EB-5 visa-seeking investors - a second look (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6550)

Quote
The extraordinary deal the Penn Pike has done with a couple of Philadelphia brokers to borrow up to $250m from foreign investors seeking US residency visas (known as the EB-5 program) is both better and worse on a second look. The Turnpike has been quite forthcoming with information, so a reporter can't validly complain that any element of 'cover up' surrounds the affair. They are not acting as if they have anything to hide.

Quote
The good news seems to be that the Turnpike has NOT got itself "on the hook" for anything much beyond money to hire an 'economist' to work up numbers on 'job creation' likely to result from the I-95 interchange project. That's $50,000 for PR. (Such exercises estimate immediate job creation and gross spending effects, and never look at offsetting effects of finance denied to other projects, and workers not hired there.)

Quote
But such claims of jobs created are standard fare for promoting new projects. And so the object of the financing, I-95/Turnpike interchange, will be analysed for the immediate jobs it creates and other spending it produces in construction
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on June 03, 2013, 01:44:24 PM
According to a recent post over at the generic "Pennsylvania" forum at City -Data, the PTC has advertised Requests for Qualifications for future design/build bidding on these Turnpike segments (the city data post had these segments as an active link taking you to the actual PTC advertisement) [comments inside these brackets are mine]


MM 13 to MM 14
 (To be widened to six lanes, and includes a reconfiguration of Exit 13 and new pair of bridges over the Beaver River.)
 
MM 28 to MM 31
 (To be widened to six lanes)

[The Cranberry Interchange to Warrendale toll plaza]
 
MM 49 to MM 53
 (To be widened to six lanes.)
[Northern half from Monroeville to the new Allegheny River Bridge]
 
MM 53 to MM 57
 (To be widened to six lanes, and includes a reconfiguration of Exit 57.)
[Southern half from new Allegheny River Bridge to Monroeville including the Monroeville interchange]
 
MM 298 to MM 312
 (To be widened to six lanes.)
 
MM 333 to MM 351
 (Possible reconstruction and design updates to a segment widened in 1987.)
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: BrianP on June 03, 2013, 02:07:48 PM
Quote
MM 298 to MM 312
 (To be widened to six lanes.)
That seems odd.  Neither adjacent segment is six lanes.  Wouldn't you think the best place to start would be at MP 312 where I-76 leaves the turnpike?  Or does much of the truck traffic skip that section via US 202 US 30 and PA 100?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 03, 2013, 02:23:54 PM
Quote
MM 298 to MM 312
 (To be widened to six lanes.)
That seems odd.  Neither adjacent segment is six lanes.  Wouldn't you think the best place to start would be at MP 312 where I-76 leaves the turnpike?  Or does much of the truck traffic skip that section via US 202 US 30 and PA 100?
Don't you mean MP 326?  That's the Valley Forge (I-76 East) exit and where it widens to 6-lanes (via I-276).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on June 03, 2013, 02:38:34 PM
The list in my post were for "request for Qualificatios", an extremely early step.   IIRC 320-326 and 312-320 are already further along in the pipeline.  By the time 298-312 breaks ground, the pike will allready have been widened to west to 312.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 19, 2013, 01:38:04 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/pennsylvania/Cross-state_PA_turnpike_toll_could_rise_to_50.html

An article stating tolls could rise to $50 to go from Ohio to New Jersey on the PA Turnpike by 2021 due to the Act 44 obligations.

My only real comment is in response to this:
Quote
"If we don’t do something about this by the year 2021, it will cost $50 for the average working Pennsylvanian just to travel across our state,”  said Auditor General Eugene DePasquale. “That is just unsustainable. There is no way that we can ask the average Pennsylvanian to pay that.”

Why would the average Pennsylvanian go all the way across the state?  Wouldn't the average state resident live somewhere along the Turnpike and only need to tranverse part of the state?  It'll still be a very high toll, of course.  And how many average working Pennsylvanians are required to travel the entire turnpike as well? 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on June 19, 2013, 01:49:13 PM
What would be the legality of a traveler getting say a 20% discount using the cash lanes or an automatic 20% discount if they can show an ID indicating PA residency.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on June 19, 2013, 01:49:40 PM
Why would the average Pennsylvanian go all the way across the state?  Wouldn't the average state resident live somewhere along the Turnpike and only need to tranverse part of the state?  It'll still be a very high toll, of course.  And how many average working Pennsylvanians are required to travel the entire turnpike as well? 

Maybe I'm not average, but I used to live in Bristol, so I used to do that occasionally, since my fiancee has family out in Ohio. More to the point of the original quote, I'm assuming he means tolls *overall* would skyrocket, hitting those folks who commute within the state on the Turnpike. I don't know about other parts of the state, but there's a *lot* of people in and around Philly who drive the Turnpike daily (like my fiancee). Every time tolls go up, that hits her directly ($toll_hike * days_commuted).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on June 19, 2013, 01:53:56 PM
What would be the legality of a traveler getting say a 20% discount using the cash lanes or an automatic 20% discount if they can show an ID indicating PA residency.

They could implement some sort of EZPass frequent traveler program like the DRJTBC has for people who cross their bridges at least 20 days a month. I also recall there being some sort of discount on the NJTP for people who live in Florence and use the Turnpike bridge to cross over the Delaware, but I could be completely wrong.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2013, 06:32:19 PM
TOLLROADSnews: New Pennsylvania Auditor General reasserts criticism - Penn Pike debt "unsustainable" (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6595)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Interstatefan78 on June 19, 2013, 06:47:15 PM
Saw the linked video and it says that the call boxes are written into a law and also they say that there is a cost to pull all call boxes of the PA turnpike system and it's up to each ptc member to make the decision to pull them out. A better solution in my opinion is to put small #11 signs on the fmr call box locations on  the PA turnpike system that includes I-476,I-76,I-276,I-376, and PA-43 :D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2013, 09:37:00 AM
Why would the average Pennsylvanian go all the way across the state?  Wouldn't the average state resident live somewhere along the Turnpike and only need to tranverse part of the state?  It'll still be a very high toll, of course.  And how many average working Pennsylvanians are required to travel the entire turnpike as well? 

Maybe I'm not average, but I used to live in Bristol, so I used to do that occasionally, since my fiancee has family out in Ohio. More to the point of the original quote, I'm assuming he means tolls *overall* would skyrocket, hitting those folks who commute within the state on the Turnpike. I don't know about other parts of the state, but there's a *lot* of people in and around Philly who drive the Turnpike daily (like my fiancee). Every time tolls go up, that hits her directly ($toll_hike * days_commuted).


Nope, you're not average. :-P

And as far as daily commuting goes, that is something the turnpike can control.  Instead of a uniform 10% increase, the turnpike could say "Ok, interchange to interchange driving in the area between I-476 and US 13 (where most of the daily commuters live) won't see an increase, or just a minor increase.  Toll fares would increase 15% for other distances".

But...the turnpike won't do this.  If anything, they'll say the opposite - fares need to be higher for these commuters because they are the ones requiring the road to be widened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on June 20, 2013, 01:07:06 PM

And as far as daily commuting goes, that is something the turnpike can control.  Instead of a uniform 10% increase, the turnpike could say "Ok, interchange to interchange driving in the area between I-476 and US 13 (where most of the daily commuters live) won't see an increase, or just a minor increase.  Toll fares would increase 15% for other distances".

But...the turnpike won't do this.  If anything, they'll say the opposite - fares need to be higher for these commuters because they are the ones requiring the road to be widened.

And you know, I'm okay with that so long as the tolls are being used for the Turnpike. It would effectively be a use-based tax on maintaining and expanding the highway, and since that section would be the most expensive to maintain and expand, charging more makes sense. The problem I have with the last few years of tax toll hikes is that it's essentially a tax on the folks who use the Turnpike in order to fund the whole state's transportation infrastructure. It would make more sense to fund that out of a larger base of taxpayers, such as a gas tax or from sales/use or income taxes, not the relatively small % of drivers who use the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 01, 2013, 01:14:16 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike pay-to-play corruption trial has a weeklong preliminary hearing (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6613)

Quote
Witnesses favorable to Pennsylvania Turnpike defendants charged with corruption said repeatedly in the first court hearing last week that gifts they received from vendors who got contracts with the Turnpike were friendly expressions of gratitude not bribes or payoffs. And they maintained political activity organized by top Turnpike officials didn't involve improper pressure on vendors. Special favors sought by politicians at the Turnpike were merely innocent 'constituent service.'

Quote
We rely for the summary that follows on extensive local reports - especially Jeff Frantz at the Harrisburg Patriot News (pennlive.com) and Brad Bumstead Pittsburgh Tribune Review who reported morning and afternoon Monday through Friday last week  from the Harrisburg courtroom of state district judge William Wenner. 19 witnesses were heard in five days of a hearing to decide whether the case by state attorney general Kathleen Kane should go to trial before a judge and jury.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 09, 2013, 12:10:11 PM
Update on the Turnpike/I-95 interchange project:

Project is entering into another construction phase.

http://bensalem.patch.com/groups/around-town/p/turnpike-i95-connection-begins-next-phase (http://bensalem.patch.com/groups/around-town/p/turnpike-i95-connection-begins-next-phase)

Excerpt:

...until mid-July, little impact is anticipated for motorists traveling through the project area on Interstate 276 between the Bensalem Exit (#351) and the Delaware River Bridge (#359).
Later this month, the contractor will set up a work zone in the project area and once established the speed limit will be reduced to 55 miles per hour until the project is completed in spring 2016. Additionally, some work will require the contractor to establish single-lane patterns during off-peak hours, restricting travel lanes with reduced work-zone speeds of 40 mph.

There are two separate projects that could impact turnpike travel. The first is the reconstruction and widening of a stretch of I-276 between milepost 351.4 and 354.1 including the construction of a mainline toll plaza at milepost 352.6. The second project site is for the construction of an Open-Road Tolling system (highway-speed tolling) at the Delaware River Bridge plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 10, 2013, 06:10:35 PM
The PA Pike also has a new Commissioner as of July 2, it's not my intent to be political, but they have appointed a long time assembly rep from Monroeville, a Democrat, which surprised me, but also made me wonder what his influence will have on the 376 interchange reconstruct (I would like to think this could lead to a more robust design)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2013, 10:57:44 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike leaders sent to trial after preliminary hearing (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6643)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 16, 2013, 11:18:12 PM
What's sad is that the chair of the Allegheny Co Commissioners got the head of PAT Transit fired for the purpose of getting a friend in that position, and nominated Brimmeier the day before the indictments.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 26, 2013, 11:58:56 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Problems in broader EB-5 program, Penn Pike's proposed financing for big I-95 interchange (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6655)

Quote
The Inspector General at the Department of Homeland Security is investigating possible abuses in handling of EB-5 visa applications by Chinese nationals following a referral from an FBI counter-intelligence analyst, the Associated Press reports. They say President Obama's nominee for the deputy-secretary, #2 slot in the department Alejandro Mayorkas is under investigation for his handling of an investor visa when he was head of US Citizenship and Immigration Services unit of the department.

Quote
Under the EB-5 program foreign investors putting $500,000 or more into a US business and creating jobs get a special 'foreign investor visa" allowing them to bypass other foreigners applying for entry to the US.

Quote
The DHS Inspector General sent an email about the investigation to members of the House and Senate committees on homeland security this week. The IG said that the department's general counsel office obstructed a Securities and Exchange Commission attempt to audit the EB-5 program. And it says the FBI has been concerned about the program providing a way for Chinese intelligence officers to become involved in sensitive building projects through shell companies.

Quote
One of these turned out to be an FBI facility being built by an EB-5 contractor.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 27, 2013, 12:01:36 AM
What's sad is that the chair of the Allegheny Co Commissioners got the head of PAT Transit fired for the purpose of getting a friend in that position, and nominated Brimmeier the day before the indictments.

I don't think anyone could pay be enough to be in  charge of transit in Pittsburgh.

Declining market for transit, militant unions and resistance by the unions and their friendly elected officials to significant  cost-savings.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 29, 2013, 05:36:03 PM
It's that time of the year again:  Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission Announces 2014 Toll Increase (http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2013/20130729160256.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 30, 2013, 07:31:12 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Celebrates Start of Turnpike/I-95 Interchange Project (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130730142841.htm) - Groundbreaking ceremony took place today for Phase 1 of this long-awaited interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 30, 2013, 09:02:05 PM
A new project has been added to the Turnpike future/current construction projects page:  A design phase for the mainline from the Fort Littleton exit to the western porthole of the Tuscoraora tunnel.  It will also be a 6 lane widening with a reconstruction of the Fort Littleton exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 16, 2013, 04:45:51 PM
Yet another project has been added to the design phase on the PTC website:  I-176 Morgantown to PA 100.  This, when complete will leave I-283 to I-176 as the longest untouched part of the mainline.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 26, 2013, 12:39:39 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Celebrates Start of Turnpike/I-95 Interchange Project (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130730142841.htm) - Groundbreaking ceremony took place today for Phase 1 of this long-awaited interchange.
Here's one video of such:


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on August 26, 2013, 01:31:20 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Celebrates Start of Turnpike/I-95 Interchange Project (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130730142841.htm) - Groundbreaking ceremony took place today for Phase 1 of this long-awaited interchange.
I will not be happy until the day it is open for business.  So many wolf cries over the years, so until its finished I will not rejoice over this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 26, 2013, 02:33:10 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike Celebrates Start of Turnpike/I-95 Interchange Project (http://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2013/20130730142841.htm) - Groundbreaking ceremony took place today for Phase 1 of this long-awaited interchange.
I will not be happy until the day it is open for business.  So many wolf cries over the years, so until its finished I will not rejoice over this.

PTC and PennDOT have completed a few bridge projects that are directly related to this effort, which is good.

But according to a TOLLROADSnews story written last month  (here (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6670)), one reason for the slow pace with this project is the requirement that PTC make Act 44 payments to PennDOT for subsidies of roads and transit projects and transit wages and benefits that have nothing to do with the Turnpike.

Quote
Privately Turnpike officials say the project could be strung out over a longer period if the Turnpike doesn't get relief from the Act 44 requirements of making grants for transit and free roads of Penn DOT. They say the continued rebuild and widening of the rest of the Turnpike is probably a higher priority than the I-95 interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2013, 03:40:37 PM
Quote
Privately Turnpike officials say the project could be strung out over a longer period if the Turnpike doesn't get relief from the Act 44 requirements of making grants for transit and free roads of Penn DOT. They say the continued rebuild and widening of the rest of the Turnpike is probably a higher priority than the I-95 interchange.

I can understand that, as (and correct me if I'm wrong) this portion of the PA Turnpike between existing 95 and the NJ Turnpike becomes toll-free after the interchange is built.

Having said that, the state could use the Act 44 money to assist with I-95 improvements in the area, including this interchange.

And finally, as far as the slow pace goes - Act 44 is relatively recent.  This project had dragged on for years in non-construction phases.  It was originally supposed to open around the same time the NJ Turnpike widening project is completed in 2014.  So Act 44 isn't the sole reason for the slow pace of this project.  A lot of median barriers have been constructed...often times in the same place.  That money could have gone towards this project instead.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 26, 2013, 09:51:11 PM
Isn't the I-95 interchange required by federal law?  Why aren't the feds threatening PA with the loss of highway funds if it isn't built?  If I were the head of the FHWA, I would tell PA that they won't see so much as a penny of highway money until the interchange is built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 26, 2013, 10:23:07 PM
Quote
Privately Turnpike officials say the project could be strung out over a longer period if the Turnpike doesn't get relief from the Act 44 requirements of making grants for transit and free roads of Penn DOT. They say the continued rebuild and widening of the rest of the Turnpike is probably a higher priority than the I-95 interchange.

I can understand that, as (and correct me if I'm wrong) this portion of the PA Turnpike between existing 95 and the NJ Turnpike becomes toll-free after the interchange is built.

It is my understanding that the I-95 north movement will not be tolled in Pennsylvania, but I-95 south traffic coming over the Delaware River will have to pay a toll at a barrier for I-95 south (currently I-276 west) traffic.  Rather like the far western section of the Pennsylvania Turnpike E-W mainline is now "free" for westbound traffic between I-79 and the Ohio border, but traffic entering Pennsylvania from the Ohio Turnpike pays a toll.  That happened when the PTC's "ticket" system was cut-back to just east of I-79 at Warrendale when the breezewood between the Turnpike and I-79 was remediated.

Having said that, the state could use the Act 44 money to assist with I-95 improvements in the area, including this interchange.

I am not qualified to say how the Act 44 payments work (or if PTC can tell PennDOT to use Act 44 money for this interchange). I do know that the amount of money that PTC was to give to PennDOT was predicated on being able to impose tolls on I-80, something that was rejected by the George W. Bush and Obama Administration USDOTs.

And finally, as far as the slow pace goes - Act 44 is relatively recent.  This project had dragged on for years in non-construction phases.  It was originally supposed to open around the same time the NJ Turnpike widening project is completed in 2014.  So Act 44 isn't the sole reason for the slow pace of this project.  A lot of median barriers have been constructed...often times in the same place.  That money could have gone towards this project instead.

Excellent point - this project has indeed taken forever (it seems).

In defense of PTC and PennDOT, it was not Pennsylvania's section of I-95 that was cancelled - it was New Jersey's part of I-95 that was cancelled thanks to NIMBYist pressure.  However, PTC and PennDOT don't get off for free, since the two of them failed to construct an interchange where there should have been one (regardless of what happened in New Jersey) when I-95 was being planned, designed and constructed north of Philadelphia, and that is their fault.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 26, 2013, 10:39:50 PM
Isn't the I-95 interchange required by federal law?

Yup.  I believe a provision of the  Surface Transportation Assistance Act of (!) 1982 mandates that the connection be made.

Why aren't the feds threatening PA with the loss of highway funds if it isn't built?  If I were the head of the FHWA, I would tell PA that they won't see so much as a penny of highway money until the interchange is built.

Good idea, but Washington never does anything so rational, even when there is a clearly federal interest at stake (as there is here).

May I suggest that the President  nominate you to be the  next Secretary of USDOT?  Or at least the Federal Highway Administrator?

I would actually love to expand on your excellent idea and tell the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission that interest on its bonds will no longer be exempt from federal taxation unless it remediates every single breezewood on its system, starting with the Breezewood.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 27, 2013, 08:20:02 AM
It is my understanding that the I-95 north movement will not be tolled in Pennsylvania, but I-95 south traffic coming over the Delaware River will have to pay a toll at a barrier for I-95 south (currently I-276 west) traffic.   
Actually, the eastern mainline toll plaza will be relocated west of the I-95 interchange when all is said & done.  In short, the only toll barrier that I-95 South through traffic will ultimately encounter will be on the Jersey side at the current NJTP barrier at US 130 (Exit 6A).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2013, 09:00:32 AM
In defense of PTC and PennDOT, it was not Pennsylvania's section of I-95 that was cancelled - it was New Jersey's part of I-95 that was cancelled thanks to NIMBYist pressure.  However, PTC and PennDOT don't get off for free, since the two of them failed to construct an interchange where there should have been one (regardless of what happened in New Jersey) when I-95 was being planned, designed and constructed north of Philadelphia, and that is their fault.

Personally, I think PA benefited from NJ's cancellation of 95.  If one sees the daily congestion along 95 now thru the Philly and Chester areas, imagine the congestion if 95 from NYC to Delaware was the main route, rather than the NJ Turnpike to 295. 

Would 95 be wider?  Would it be double decked?  95 is sandwiched between houses and buildings now, so both of those options seem far fetched.  How different would 295 be in NJ as the bypass around Philadelphia?

While a lot of criticism is placed on the cancellation of NJ's portion of 95, the resulting effects send the majority of traffic thru a relatively rural portion of NJ (which over the years have become quite suburban), rather than thru the already congested Philadelphia cities. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: deathtopumpkins on August 27, 2013, 09:07:01 AM
Even if the NJ portion of 95 had been built, I'd wager long-distance travel patterns would still be largely the same. Most people would take the more direct, and arguably faster and calmer NJTP.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2013, 09:25:22 AM
Even if the NJ portion of 95 had been built, I'd wager long-distance travel patterns would still be largely the same. Most people would take the more direct, and arguably faster and calmer NJTP.

I'd go with the opposite reasoning: Most people would stay on I-95 because they are just following signs for I-95.  And they really wouldn't want to pay a toll if they didn't have to.

Actually, they are avoiding two tolls, under the assumption that the 95 bridge over the Delaware was still free.  Having said that, when the 95 bridge is widened eventually, the addition of open-road tolling is part of that project, along with the wideneing of 95 from 2 to 3 lanes each direction for about 4 miles in PA.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 27, 2013, 09:50:05 AM
Even if the NJ portion of 95 had been built, I'd wager long-distance travel patterns would still be largely the same. Most people would take the more direct, and arguably faster and calmer NJTP.
IMHO, I-295, the northern stretch in particular, would've seen more traffic on it had I-95 in Somerset County been built.

My holiday commutes to/from New England would've benefited greatly.  Had I-95 been built as orginally planned, I still would use I-295 North from I-76.  However, instead of exiting at I-195 (Exit 60), I would've continued to the I-95/295 split (would-be Exit 71 or 72(?)) and then taken I-95 North to I-695 (if built) and I-287.  The only tolls I would've encountered would have been the Tappan Zee (one-way) and the Mass Pike (I-90).  Over a 23-year period, I would've saved a lot of toll money.

I'd go with the opposite reasoning: Most people would stay on I-95 because they are just following signs for I-95.  And they really wouldn't want to pay a toll if they didn't have to.

Actually, they are avoiding two tolls, under the assumption that the 95 bridge over the Delaware was still free.  Having said that, when the 95 bridge is widened eventually, the addition of open-road tolling is part of that project, along with the wideneing of 95 from 2 to 3 lanes each direction for about 4 miles in PA.
Again, the existing east-gate toll plaza is being relocated west of the new interchange.  The new gantry will, no doubt, be of the open-road toll variety.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2013, 12:23:48 PM

I'd go with the opposite reasoning: Most people would stay on I-95 because they are just following signs for I-95.  And they really wouldn't want to pay a toll if they didn't have to.

Actually, they are avoiding two tolls, under the assumption that the 95 bridge over the Delaware was still free.  Having said that, when the 95 bridge is widened eventually, the addition of open-road tolling is part of that project, along with the wideneing of 95 from 2 to 3 lanes each direction for about 4 miles in PA.
Again, the existing east-gate toll plaza is being relocated west of the new interchange.  The new gantry will, no doubt, be of the open-road toll variety.

I should've been more specific, as I was referring to a 'what might've been' scenerio if 95 was built as planned thru NJ.  Motorists would have most likely stayed on I-95 rather than taking the NJ Turnpike. 

Motorist taking 95 from NY to Delaware would have had pay a small toll from NYC to I-287, but then enjoyed a free ride thru the rest of NJ, across the I-95 Scudder Falls Bridge into PA, then thru Philly and Willmington. 

Motorists taking the NJ Turnpike down to Delaware would have to pay the entire NJ Turnpike toll, plus the toll crossing the Delaware Memorial Bridge.  That Delaware River toll that would have been avoided if motorist took the originally planned I-95 routing. 

The I-95 Scudder Falls Bridge will be widened within the next few years, and Open Road Tolling is planned for that.  At some point, it will also be renumbered I-195.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 27, 2013, 12:45:36 PM
Motorist taking 95 from NY to Delaware would have had pay a small toll from NYC to I-287, but then enjoyed a free ride thru the rest of NJ, across the I-95 Scudder Falls Bridge into PA, then thru Philly and Willmington. 

Motorists taking the NJ Turnpike down to Delaware would have to pay the entire NJ Turnpike toll, plus the toll crossing the Delaware Memorial Bridge.  That Delaware River toll that would have been avoided if motorist took the originally planned I-95 routing.
With the current one-way tolling of the Delaware River Bridges, through-traffic northbounders still would've bypassed PA (along w/Philly) and utilized I-295 North to would-be I-95 connection in Ewing.  Al-Jo curve (which is finally being remedied) notwithstanding.

While some could do that today at least up to I-195 (Exit 60); most don't think about doing such.  Had I-95 in NJ been built, it would've likely been a different story IMHO. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 27, 2013, 01:34:52 PM
It is my understanding that the I-95 north movement will not be tolled in Pennsylvania, but I-95 south traffic coming over the Delaware River will have to pay a toll at a barrier for I-95 south (currently I-276 west) traffic.   
Actually, the eastern mainline toll plaza will be relocated west of the I-95 interchange when all is said & done.  In short, the only toll barrier that I-95 South through traffic will ultimately encounter will be on the Jersey side at the current NJTP barrier at US 130 (Exit 6A).

According to the PTC's Web site (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/) for the project, there will be a (flat-rate) toll for traffic coming over the Delaware River from New Jersey to Pennsylvania (why they could not make a deal with the New Jersey Turnpike Authority to just collect the money at the Exit 6A barrier for the PTC is beyond me). If you look at this image (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/images/STAGEMAPMAY2013_lg.jpg) on the right  side, there is an artistic rendering of what looks like an all-electronic toll point for westbound (Turnpike) or southbound (I-95) movement - it is labelled as MODIFIED DRB TOLL PLAZA WESTBOUND ONLY (though it seems that PTC may be collecting cash there, at least initially).

At some point in the past, I think that toll barrier on the Pennsylvania side was referred to as a "coin drop" toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2013, 01:50:05 PM
According to the PTC's Web site (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/) for the project, there will be a (flat-rate) toll for traffic coming over the Delaware River from New Jersey to Pennsylvania (why they could not make a deal with the New Jersey Turnpike Authority to just collect the money at the Exit 6A barrier for the PTC is beyond me).

Or make a deal that the NJ Turnpike Authority has complete jurisdiction of that bridge in regards to construction and maintenance. Simply raise the toll a bit at Interchange 6 & 6A to cover the costs (although that would screw the motorists travelling to/from US 130 to/from the mainline NJ Turnpike, as they would pay the increased toll but not use the bridge).

The dualization of that PA-NJ Turnpike connector bridge would probably get done much faster as a result, too.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 27, 2013, 03:21:28 PM
According to the PTC's Web site (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/) for the project, there will be a (flat-rate) toll for traffic coming over the Delaware River from New Jersey to Pennsylvania (why they could not make a deal with the New Jersey Turnpike Authority to just collect the money at the Exit 6A barrier for the PTC is beyond me). If you look at this image (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/images/STAGEMAPMAY2013_lg.jpg) on the right  side, there is an artistic rendering of what looks like an all-electronic toll point for westbound (Turnpike) or southbound (I-95) movement - it is labelled as MODIFIED DRB TOLL PLAZA WESTBOUND ONLY (though it seems that PTC may be collecting cash there, at least initially).

At some point in the past, I think that toll barrier on the Pennsylvania side was referred to as a "coin drop" toll.
Actually, I am surprised that the westbound open-road gantry east the interchange doesn't run afoul (read: violate) with the original agreement that I-95 into PA from NJ was not going to be tolled beyond the NJ Turnpike gantries... like the current I-95 via the Scudder Falls Bridge.

If that addtional gantry's going to be there; why move the mainline east gate gantry west of the interchange to begin with?  This means that somebody coming into PA via I-95 but heading to I-276 needs to pass through two gantries over a short distance.  Granted, it's not as idiotic as the present close proximity of the east gate plaza and the Delaware Valley (Exit 358) interchange plaza (whoever decided not to integrate those two plazas when they were originally built should be shot IMHO); but still there seems to be a trampling of principle here.

Given the PA Turnpike's current extortion toll rates (courtesy of Act 44); there could be a very legitimate concern that motorists may feel that they're getting fleeced again by exhorbitant tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2013, 04:00:45 PM
According to the PTC's Web site (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/) for the project, there will be a (flat-rate) toll for traffic coming over the Delaware River from New Jersey to Pennsylvania (why they could not make a deal with the New Jersey Turnpike Authority to just collect the money at the Exit 6A barrier for the PTC is beyond me). If you look at this image (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/images/STAGEMAPMAY2013_lg.jpg) on the right  side, there is an artistic rendering of what looks like an all-electronic toll point for westbound (Turnpike) or southbound (I-95) movement - it is labelled as MODIFIED DRB TOLL PLAZA WESTBOUND ONLY (though it seems that PTC may be collecting cash there, at least initially).

At some point in the past, I think that toll barrier on the Pennsylvania side was referred to as a "coin drop" toll.
Actually, I am surprised that the westbound open-road gantry east the interchange doesn't run afoul (read: violate) with the original agreement that I-95 into PA from NJ was not going to be tolled beyond the NJ Turnpike gantries... like the current I-95 via the Scudder Falls Bridge.

If that addtional gantry's going to be there; why move the mainline east gate gantry west of the interchange to begin with?  This means that somebody coming into PA via I-95 but heading to I-276 needs to pass through two gantries over a short distance.  Granted, it's not as idiotic as the present close proximity of the east gate plaza and the Delaware Valley (Exit 358) interchange plaza (whoever decided not to integrate those two plazas when they were originally built should be shot IMHO); but still there seems to be a trampling of principle here.

Given the PA Turnpike's current extortion toll rates (courtesy of Act 44); there could be a very legitimate concern that motorists may feel that they're getting fleeced again by exhorbitant tolls.

A toll plaza for traffic using the 276/95 ramps would be required if there was only one mainline plaza near the PA-NJ Turnpike connector bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on August 27, 2013, 05:03:43 PM
A toll plaza for traffic using the 276/95 ramps would be required if there was only one mainline plaza near the PA-NJ Turnpike connector bridge.

I also wonder... will the bridge toll be put strictly into the pocket of the PTC, or is there any sort of revenue split going between PTC and PennDOT?
Since that toll will be pretty much stand-alone, why not find some funding model to split the revenue between NJ and PA? Then, in theory, NJTA could drop the toll plaza at US 130, and we'd have parity with every other toll bridge between NJ and PA (that is, a toll heading out of NJ, with no other tolls to *just* use the bridge).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 27, 2013, 05:19:44 PM
A toll plaza for traffic using the 276/95 ramps would be required if there was only one mainline plaza near the PA-NJ Turnpike connector bridge.
My original understanding of this whole project was that the Turnpike from just west of the new interchange to the NJ state line was to be non-tolled at all but still maintained by PTC or a joint venture between them & PennDOT.

Something tells me that the westbound gantry near the state line was recently added to the whole overall project (as a bridge toll).  If that is indeed the case, then this appears to be a bait & switch with respect to what was originally presented at the various public meetings & hearings.

I do recall the Feds mandating that one freeway crossing the Delaware River to be toll free.  I-95 along the Scudder Falls Bridge was originally supposed to be it but with the shift of I-95 onto the Turnpike corridor, the moving of the Turnpike East-gate toll plaza and the replacement Scudder Falls Bridge (future I-195) being tolled; one can certainly get the impression that the new I-95 along the PA Turnpike corridor was going to be that toll-free crossing.

NJTA could drop the toll plaza at US 130, and we'd have parity with every other toll bridge between NJ and PA (that is, a toll heading out of NJ, with no other tolls to *just* use the bridge).
I'm assuming that you're only referring to the westbound entrance ramp from US 130 as opposed to mainline Turnpike gantry (which serves as an end to the NJTP's closed toll collection system).  If that's the case, you're right.  The current PA proposal means that somebody heading from US 130 to I-276 is crossing three different toll gantries/plazas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on August 27, 2013, 10:12:36 PM
Vdeane, to follow-up on your original question. You have to understand that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission suffers from serious rectal-cranial inversion compared to the NY Thruway Authority. Originally there was no interchange between the Pennsy-Pike and I-95, 'cause (I believe)federal law prohibited using Interstate highway funds for interchanges with toll-roads. And unlike the Thruway Authority, the P.T.C. would not use their funds to build interchanges with the Interstates, and that's how we ended up having no connection with I-95.

I believe that is the correct history, but if anyone knows different, please correct me. 

Folks, I hope I live long enough to see (and drive) this completed Pennsy-Pike/I-95/NJT project finished, but I have my doubts if the pace of the last 20 years continues. And to think the entire original New Jersey Turnpike was built in all of two whole years. We could use some of that left-over World War II military style efficiency today!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 27, 2013, 10:33:06 PM
The Thruway Authority probably had a bit more flexability with funds than the PTC as well.  The PA Turnpike is significant in that it never had any plans to become free once its bonds were paid off, unlike most (if not all) the surrounding toll roads, including the Thruway.  Thus it is subject to many laws that apply to it but not seemingly to other toll roads (kinda like NY state laws that apply only to "cities of over 1 million people", aka NYC).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on August 27, 2013, 10:41:54 PM
I believe that is the correct history, but if anyone knows different, please correct me. 
Some old maps (including the 1964 Rand McNally (http://web.archive.org/web/20060514223439/http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg377a/81a.jpg)) show a proposed connection from the I-95/PA 413 interchange to I-276/US 13. Presumably this would have been built by PennDOT. (A 1971 map (http://ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Bucks_1971_Sheet_3.pdf) does not show this, but does show I-895 connecting to the same interchange.)

Interestingly, a 1945 map (http://ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Bucks_1945.pdf) shows a proposed link from Langhorne to Yardley instead of the current US 1 freeway from Langhorne to Morrisville.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 08:13:36 AM
Some old maps (including the 1964 Rand McNally (http://web.archive.org/web/20060514223439/http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg377a/81a.jpg)) show a proposed connection from the I-95/PA 413 interchange to I-276/US 13. Presumably this would have been built by PennDOT.
It's interesting that at the northeast corner of that map, US 13 is shown as I-95 once it turns into a limited-access highway (heavy green line).  I remember some RMD road atlases erroneously showing the PA 413 branch-off I-95 with a direct connection to the PA Turnpike (interchange shown as a white square) into the the 1980s.

BTW, I'm getting an error message when I attempted to open your other links.

The PA Turnpike is significant in that it never had any plans to become free once its bonds were paid off, unlike most (if not all) the surrounding toll roads,
According to at least one historical account of the PA Turnpike, the original plan indeed called for the removal of tolls once the original bond(s) that built the road were paid off (sometime in the 1980s); the road would have then been turned over to PennDOT and been treated like a toll-free Interstate. 

However, like the majority of other toll roads (including the NY Thruway), when Federal dollars started becoming more scarce at the time; those toll booth removal plans were nixed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on August 28, 2013, 08:16:45 AM
BTW, I'm getting an error message when I attempted to open your other links.
This forum borks FTP links. Fiddle with the beginning of the URL.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on August 28, 2013, 08:22:52 AM
I do not understand why the proposed freeway along US 13 in Bucks County is not an option being its an industrialized area that usually is the easiest to build through.  Plus its a straight line where when the I-95/ PA Turnpike interchange will have I-95 zig zag.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 08:30:53 AM
I do not understand why the proposed freeway along US 13 in Bucks County is not an option being its an industrialized area that usually is the easiest to build through.  Plus its a straight line where when the I-95/ PA Turnpike interchange will have I-95 zig zag.
Guess on my part, if one looks further northeast (off the map) US 13 terminates at US 1.

Exerpt from Steve Anderson's  PhillyRoads site on the history of I-95 through PA and why the US 13/1 corridor was not chosen for I-95:

http://www.phillyroads.com/roads/delaware/ (http://www.phillyroads.com/roads/delaware/)

DECIDING UPON AN ALIGNMENT IN BUCKS COUNTY: To the north of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania initially sought to route I-95 across the Delaware River along the Trenton Toll Bridge, then north through Trenton along the Trenton Freeway (current US 1). The original alignment of I-95 in Bucks County was to continue from the current EXIT 40 (PA 413) in Bristol, and proceed north along the US 13 corridor to the vicinity of Morrisville. It was to have interchanges at PA 413, the Pennsylvania Turnpike-Delaware River Extension (I-276) in Bristol, and Levittown Parkway in Levittown.

However, New Jersey officials opposed this routing on the basis of the physical and capacity constraints on the four-lane bridge and freeway. The two states jointly investigated three alternative river crossings: Scudder Falls (west of Trenton), existing Trenton Toll Bridge-Trenton Freeway (through downtown), and Biles Island (east of Trenton). After further study, the two states approved the Scudder Falls alignment in 1960. The new western alignment was approved by the BPR in 1964. Ultimately, the rerouting of I-95 would prove to be a primary reason why a direct interchange between the Delaware Expressway and the Pennsylvania Turnpike-Philadelphia Extension was never constructed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 28, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
Exerpt from Steve Anderson's  PhillyRoads site on the history of I-95 through PA and why the US 13/1 corridor was not chosen for I-95:

However, New Jersey officials opposed this routing on the basis of the physical and capacity constraints on the four-lane bridge and freeway.


As it turns out, the formerly 4 lane US 1 Bridge is now 6 lanes, while the I-95 Bridge remains at 4 lanes.  Both feature an interchange just within each state's borders.

Widening US 1 (and what could've been I-95) thru Trenton though would have been nearly impossible.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on August 28, 2013, 08:59:54 AM
I am talking about now, and not the original I-95.  I think instead of the current interchange project that a freeway connecting Exit 40 of I-95 to Exit 359 ( I think as I am still not familiar with the new mile exit numbers).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on August 28, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
This forum borks FTP links. Fiddle with the beginning of the URL.

A fix has been provided for this--I suspect at the instigation of the moderators after the last time this particular issue came up.  The forum software won't ruin FTP URLs as long as they are enclosed within "ftp" tags instead of "url" tags.

1971 Bucks Co. map (Sheet 3) (ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Bucks_1971_Sheet_3.pdf)

1945 Bucks Co. map (ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Bucks_1945.pdf)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 09:14:43 AM
I am talking about now, and not the original I-95.  I think instead of the current interchange project that a freeway connecting Exit 40 of I-95 to Exit 359 ( I think as I am still not familiar with the new mile exit numbers).
Prior to the Feds re-routing I-95, PTC/PennDOT indeed had long-range plans to extend the PA 413 connector northward onto the Turnpike.  Such an extension would've involved a reconfiguration/integration with the existing Delaware Valley/US 13 interchange (Exit 358 BTW).  The original Tunrpike/Connector interchange was to be of a trumpet design similar to the Valley Forge/I-76 East (Exit 326) interchange.

Once the decision was made regarding the rerouting of I-95, that design (eminent domain/land takings for the original interchange had already taken place at the time) was viewed as inadequate for the estimated future traffic volumes once the interchange opened; so it was back to the drawing board and we now have the current higher speed/higher volume design.

A 1971 map does not show this, but does show I-895 connecting to the same interchange.
1971 Bucks Co. map (Sheet 3) (ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Bucks_1971_Sheet_3.pdf)
It's interesting that for one needing to get from I-95 South to PA 413, one had to exit off the proposed I-895 (via a cloverleaf ramp) and get onto I-95 northbound before reaching PA 413.  My guess is that southbound I-95 off-ramp to the would-be I-895 wound up ultimately getting built as the completed missing movement to PA 413 sometime in the late 90s/early 2000s.

Back to the new westbound Turnpike (future I-95 South) open-road toll gantry for a moment.  Alleged toll-free freeway river crossing violation aside for a moment; my biggest concern is what will the toll amount actually be?

At present, and I'm using a real-life example here, a calculated toll (for simplicity sake & comparison purposes, I am only using the cash rates since neither the PTC, NJTPA nor the DRPA apply EZ-Pass discounts in a consistent manner with respect to eachother) for a trip from North Jersey (part of my travel to/from New England) to where I live in (Delaware County) PA.

Toll break-down comparisons:

Option 1
NJ Turnpike from GSP (Exit 11) to I-195 (Exit 7A): $2.45

(use I-195 West to I-295 South to I-76 West to I-95 South)

Walt Whitman Bridge (I-76): $5.00

Total toll: $7.45

Note: toll for the reverse route is only $2.45.


Option 2
NJ Turnpike from GSP (Exit 11) to Turnpike Connector/Future I-95 South (Exit 6): $4.60

(use Turnpike Bridge into PA)

PA Turnpike from East-Gate ("Exit 359") to US 13/Delaware Valley (Exit 358): $1.80

(use US 13 South to PA 413 North to I-95 South)

Total toll: $6.40

Note: toll for the reverse route is the same.  Given the fact that all bridges south of the Turnpike crossing are one-way tolls into PA/DE using the Option 2 route in reverse does not make sound economic sense (unless one's originating in southeastern Bucks County PA).

The new Turnpike interchange would replace the breezewood routing described in Option 2 and would be the likely route I would use on future return trips from New England.  Seeing the current differences in tolls; my concern would be that if the PTC charges the equivalent of what DRPA charges for their 4 bridges ($5.00); there would be no real advantage for one to take the new routing (unless one has EZ-Pass and the discounts become more generous & consistent through all agencies).

While one could presently use I-295 North to pick up I-95 South and cross into PA via the Scudder Falls Bridge (no toll yet); that routing is longer in both mileage & time.  While using NJ 29 through Trenton cuts down on the mileage somewhat, since it connects to I-95 just north of the PA border; it's not much of a time-saver.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on August 28, 2013, 01:14:36 PM
This is why my hope is that they'd remove the bridge charge from whatever the NJTA and PTC currently charge exiting at either of the ticket barrier toll plazas, and instead use the bridge toll alone to account for the cost of the road between both barrier toll plazas. Of course, knowing both of these entities, they'd probably keep the tolls at the barriers the same in addition to adding another $2-5 on top of that for the one-way bridge toll (effectively double-charging for the same mileage).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on August 28, 2013, 04:40:43 PM
Just thinking aloud here . . .

If I am correct, the ramp toll at Delaware Valley (Exit 358) is to be lifted when the direct I-95 connections are made.  Not knowing how the relocated barrier plaza rates would be set (compared to the current one), the bridge toll might be set for PTC to recover this lost revenue (and likely then some).  In theory, the tolls between Exits 358 and 359 would be lost with the shuffling of toll barriers if there were not the WB bridge toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on August 28, 2013, 04:58:20 PM
If I am correct, the ramp toll at Delaware Valley (Exit 358) is to be lifted when the direct I-95 connections are made.  Not knowing how the relocated barrier plaza rates would be set (compared to the current one), the bridge toll might be set for PTC to recover this lost revenue (and likely then some).  In theory, the tolls between Exits 358 and 359 would be lost with the shuffling of toll barriers if there were not the WB bridge toll.

I figured they'd either build the toll for the non-ticket section into the bridge toll, or into the barrier toll (that is, the toll at the new barrier just east of route 1 would be the same as it would be if you went through the barrier right before the bridge). In theory, the best bet is to cover the cost of the section of road between ticket systems (NJ and PA) would be the bridge toll (same as it basically is for the DRPA, BCBC, and DRJTBC bridges, effectively). Of course, who the hell knows what the PTC plans. Whatever nets them the most money, probably...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 29, 2013, 03:00:08 PM
There may not be a ticket section of the PA Turnpike to worry about anyway...

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/No_E-ZPass_Heres_a_bill_Electronic_tolling_planned_for_PA_Turnpike.html

No doubt, the Turnpike will build the new toll plaza with regular toll booths...just in time for the Turnpike to become all-electronic!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 29, 2013, 03:30:30 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/No_E-ZPass_Heres_a_bill_Electronic_tolling_planned_for_PA_Turnpike.html
Excerpt from that link:

The key, though, is ensuring the system is fair to out-of-state drivers who don’t have the chance to get an E-ZPass, or who might otherwise be fined.

“A nationwide methodology should be established to ensure that occasional users and out-of-town travelers have a mechanism in place for paying the appropriate toll,”  Robinson said, “so that they are able to use toll facilities without being subject to a fine.”


IMHO, after the implimentation of all-electronic tolling; those who don't have EZ-Pass should be just billed the equivalent of the cash/non-EZ-Pass rate without any addtional fine or penalty

Or does that make way too much sense.

There may not be a ticket section of the PA Turnpike to worry about anyway...
While all-electronic tolling will eliminate jam-ups at traditional toll plazas; it still means that the proposed toll gantry arrangement at the eastern end still means that a motorist from US 130 in NJ heading to I-276 (beyond the proposed I-95 interchange) will be crossing (& paying, after exiting off 276, 76 or 476) three gantries over a relatively short distance.

Will the implementation of all-electronic tolling mean that all traffic would be allowed to use either Virginia Drive (Exit 340 off I-276 West) or PA 29 (Exit 320 off I-76) interchanges?

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on August 29, 2013, 03:51:42 PM
IMHO, after the implimentation of all-electronic tolling; those who don't have EZ-Pass should be just billed the equivalent of the cash/non-EZ-Pass rate without any addtional fine or penalty

Or does that make way too much sense.

I think the Turnpike has said there won't be a "fine" to not use ez-pass. Since cash would go away completely, you'd have an EZ-Pass rate and a post-billed rate, which will still be higher. So while there isn't a fine per se, you'd still pay more.

Really, the ultimate solution would to be do away with EZ-Pass entirely and bill based strictly on plate (camera technology and character recognition these days is more than good enough to do this). You sign up for a PA Turnpike account (or perhaps have an account with a consortium member) and it just gets billed directly to that account. Not signed up? You get mailed a bill for the toll + processing charge. This is the direction that we need to go to have universal interoperability between disparate electronic tolling systems nationwide,

Quote
Will the implementation of all-electronic tolling mean that all traffic would be allowed to use either Virginia Drive (Exit 340 off I-276 West) or PA 29 (Exit 320 off I-76) interchanges?

One would hope...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NJRoadfan on August 29, 2013, 05:34:41 PM
Really, the ultimate solution would to be do away with EZ-Pass entirely and bill based strictly on plate (camera technology and character recognition these days is more than good enough to do this). You sign up for a PA Turnpike account (or perhaps have an account with a consortium member) and it just gets billed directly to that account. Not signed up? You get mailed a bill for the toll + processing charge. This is the direction that we need to go to have universal interoperability between disparate electronic tolling systems nationwide,

The problem with toll by plate is reciprocal agreements between states in regards to sharing plate data. Using the Triangle Expressway in North Carolina as an example, right now if you drive on the road without a transponder you won't be billed if NC doesn't have an agreement with your state to share registration information. The reason being is that some states charge so much to pull the data that it exceeds the cost of the toll! I tested this last December when I took the TriEx... no bill in the mail.

For a road like the TriEx, this really isn't a big problem since the road is serving mostly local traffic and the possibility of out-of-state plates taking the highway is low (they apparently ran the numbers). For major regional/national routes like the New Jersey and PA Turnpikes, this is not feasible and they need agreements with just about every state and a handful of Canadian Provinces. These agreements don't currently cover enforcement either. Even if they did manage to bill you, they generally don't have the power to suspend an out of state license. Doing so would require yet another agreement.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on August 29, 2013, 05:59:22 PM
The problem with toll by plate is reciprocal agreements between states in regards to sharing plate data. Using the Triangle Expressway in North Carolina as an example, right now if you drive on the road without a transponder you won't be billed if NC doesn't have an agreement with your state to share registration information. The reason being is that some states charge so much to pull the data that it exceeds the cost of the toll! I tested this last December when I took the TriEx... no bill in the mail.

Yeah, this is a political problem more than it is a technical one. There's no *technical* reason why we can't have a national registry for handling tolls. I'd be okay with it being opt-in, just like it is now when you join EZ-Pass, but the carrot in this case would be the ability to get discounted tolls on any participating toll road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 29, 2013, 10:22:42 PM
IMHO, after the implimentation of all-electronic tolling; those who don't have EZ-Pass should be just billed the equivalent of the cash/non-EZ-Pass rate without any addtional fine or penalty

Or does that make way too much sense.

I think the Turnpike has said there won't be a "fine" to not use ez-pass. Since cash would go away completely, you'd have an EZ-Pass rate and a post-billed rate, which will still be higher. So while there isn't a fine per se, you'd still pay more.

Really, the ultimate solution would to be do away with EZ-Pass entirely and bill based strictly on plate (camera technology and character recognition these days is more than good enough to do this). You sign up for a PA Turnpike account (or perhaps have an account with a consortium member) and it just gets billed directly to that account. Not signed up? You get mailed a bill for the toll + processing charge. This is the direction that we need to go to have universal interoperability between disparate electronic tolling systems nationwide,

Quote
Will the implementation of all-electronic tolling mean that all traffic would be allowed to use either Virginia Drive (Exit 340 off I-276 West) or PA 29 (Exit 320 off I-76) interchanges?

One would hope...

So basically, your plan for "interoperability" is just to do away with what little interoperability we have now (requiring motorists to have an account with each toll authority they use to avoid extra fees) in return for getting rid of no transponder = no service?  For those of us in the northeast, that would be a huge step backwards.  I can drive all day and still not encounter a road in the US that uses a transponder other than E-ZPass, and therefore bill-by-plate surcharges.  The nearest is at the extreme southern part of Indiana.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on August 29, 2013, 10:54:43 PM
So basically, your plan for "interoperability" is just to do away with what little interoperability we have now (requiring motorists to have an account with each toll authority they use to avoid extra fees) in return for getting rid of no transponder = no service?  For those of us in the northeast, that would be a huge step backwards.  I can drive all day and still not encounter a road in the US that uses a transponder other than E-ZPass, and therefore bill-by-plate surcharges.  The nearest is at the extreme southern part of Indiana.
I'm not saying we need to get rid of EZ-Pass overnight, but there's no technological reason we even need to use electronic transponders any more. It's significantly less expensive for toll networking using incompatible transponders to implement bill-by-plate (using high speed cameras and optical character recognition of plates) than to have to implement readers for multiple types of electronic transponders, some of which would require separate antennas, separate supporting hardware, and so on. The hard part is having some centralized method for finding which tolling authority someone's cars are registered with... and you need that with *any* method of interoperability. Once you're reading plates for interoperability reasons, then it's only a small step to just read them for everything. No surcharges needed if it's all automatic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: deathtopumpkins on August 30, 2013, 06:32:38 AM
It's significantly less expensive for toll networking using incompatible transponders to implement bill-by-plate (using high speed cameras and optical character recognition of plates) than to have to implement readers for multiple types of electronic transponders, some of which would require separate antennas, separate supporting hardware, and so on.

Rather than build separate hardware for each transponder, why not just all use the same transponder type? We don't even all need to use E-Z Pass or anything, just transponders that all use the same technology.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 08:02:39 AM
It's significantly less expensive for toll networking using incompatible transponders to implement bill-by-plate (using high speed cameras and optical character recognition of plates) than to have to implement readers for multiple types of electronic transponders, some of which would require separate antennas, separate supporting hardware, and so on.

Rather than build separate hardware for each transponder, why not just all use the same transponder type? We don't even all need to use E-Z Pass or anything, just transponders that all use the same technology.

Some state would wind up spending money to swap out their system, so they'd howl.

The compromise that Florida was supposedly working out with E-ZPass seemed like a good solution at first blush: The SunPass-equipped booth reads your plate number if you're a non-SunPass driver, but before it sends you a bill, the computer queries the E-ZPass database to determine if your plate is tied to an E-ZPass; if it is, that E-ZPass account is billed.

The downside of this is that it doesn't work in reverse because some E-ZPass toll agencies persist in using gate arms on converted toll plaza lanes. I suppose in an all-ORT system that issue would become obsolete.

I don't think it's too much of a burden on the transponder user to expect him to keep his account up-to-date as to plate number and car make and model. It does create a minor nuisance for rental-car users who don't carry smartphones or tablets, of course, if the idea is that you temporarily add the rental car to your account so the toll-by-plate lookup will find the vehicle.

(Come to think of it, adding a rental might pose a risk based on the timing of how toll transactions post. If I added a rental to my SunPass account, I'd remove it from the account ASAP upon returning the car. If you don't, you run the risk of the next customer taking the car on toll roads and billing the charges to you. But if you have unposted tolls when you return it, I suppose you run the risk of the rental agency getting the bill with whatever administrative fees are tacked on and then passing it to you, thus defeating the purpose of adding the car to your SunPass account. Or am I thinking this through too much?!)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 12:09:53 PM
So basically, your plan for "interoperability" is just to do away with what little interoperability we have now (requiring motorists to have an account with each toll authority they use to avoid extra fees) in return for getting rid of no transponder = no service?  For those of us in the northeast, that would be a huge step backwards.  I can drive all day and still not encounter a road in the US that uses a transponder other than E-ZPass, and therefore bill-by-plate surcharges.  The nearest is at the extreme southern part of Indiana.
I'm not saying we need to get rid of EZ-Pass overnight, but there's no technological reason we even need to use electronic transponders any more. It's significantly less expensive for toll networking using incompatible transponders to implement bill-by-plate (using high speed cameras and optical character recognition of plates) than to have to implement readers for multiple types of electronic transponders, some of which would require separate antennas, separate supporting hardware, and so on. The hard part is having some centralized method for finding which tolling authority someone's cars are registered with... and you need that with *any* method of interoperability. Once you're reading plates for interoperability reasons, then it's only a small step to just read them for everything. No surcharges needed if it's all automatic.

Toll collection with a transponder (or similar device) is much less expensive than with license plate readers in North America,where we have such a wide variety of plate formats and designs. 

All toll-by-plate works well for the congestion tax cordons in London and Stockholm - but they have plate designs that are much more uniform than we do on this side of the pond.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 31, 2013, 03:35:11 PM
Regarding the I-95/PA Turnpike connection project, some recent posters have been wondering about things like "Why was the current configuration chosen and not some other alternative?" or "Was this or that portion of the project mandated by law?" Two other threads have included rather illuminating discussions on these and other aspects of the project. I highly recommend taking a look-see:

I-95 gap in NJ www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5430.0
new freeways for NJ www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5680.0 (beginning with reply 24)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 08, 2013, 06:35:14 PM
TOLLROADSnews: Former Inspector General calls for disbandment of Penn Pike Commission - patronage, pay-to-play "still pervasive" (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6729)

Quote
Anthony Maniscola, a former Turnpike Inspector General, says that despite criminal prosecutions of top Pennsylvania Turnpike officials patronage, pay-for-play contracting and other malpractice continues to be "pervasive." He says the Turnpike should be put under the control of the state department of transportation (PennDOT) and "run like a real highway agency."

Quote
This is reported this morning by staff writer Paul Nussbaum who got an exclusive (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20130906_Ex-inspector_general__Disband_Pa__Turnpike_Commission.html) for the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Quote
Maniscola concedes that some progress has been made in "rooting out no-show workers, thieving supervisors 'who used the turnpike as their own little Home Depot,' and toll collectors with their hands in the till."

Quote
But he said that "at the top, where four politically appointed commissioners rule, much remains to be done."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 11, 2013, 06:51:10 PM
Going back through some recent postings on my site's Facebook page, the idea to disband it was mentioned in 2009 and put forth in a bill in 2010.  It seems like the idea surfaces every so many years, and nothing changes.

It seems talk of abolishing the PTC lingers as much as talk of putting tolls on I-80.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2013, 11:10:25 PM
Going back through some recent postings on my site's Facebook page, the idea to disband it was mentioned in 2009 and put forth in a bill in 2010.  It seems like the idea surfaces every so many years, and nothing changes.

If Pennsylvania were to abolish the PTC, then what? 

PennDOT presumably would do like some other states (Florida, New Hampshire and Massachusetts come to mind) and create a Bureau of Turnpikes as a separate department under PennDOT management, along with all or very nearly all of the staff that used to work for the PTC.

It seems talk of abolishing the PTC lingers as much as talk of putting tolls on I-80.

Good point.  And tolling I-80, in order to improve (and widen) I-80, and take a pretty expensive maintenance burden away from PennDOT, still makes lots of sense. 

Though I really would like to see both "free" ends of I-70 transferred to the PTC.  It would allow a lot of fixing-up along the western section (where so badly needed), and if the eastern part between Breezewood and the Maryland border were to come under PTC jurisdiction, then I think we could say "bye bye" to Breezewood.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DBR96A on September 12, 2013, 12:26:35 AM
...I really would like to see both "free" ends of I-70 transferred to the PTC.  It would allow a lot of fixing-up along the western section (where so badly needed), and if the eastern part between Breezewood and the Maryland border were to come under PTC jurisdiction, then I think we could say "bye bye" to Breezewood.

The western segment of I-70 is already being improved. For the remainder of this decade, I-70 between Washington and New Stanton will be reconstructed to modern Interstate standards. You can get some information on current and future projects here (http://www.i-70projects.com). (Unfortunately, they don't do a very good job of photo-documenting the progress.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 12, 2013, 08:33:18 AM
Since disbanding the PA Turnpike Commission would probably have to go thru the governor, and since the governor appoints most of the highly paid commission members, it's not going to happen.  Even those politicians that write the bills to disband the commission know it's not going to happen - they just want some potential campaigning material. 

The problem with I-80's tolling proposal is that they kept saying the money would go to mass transit, which the feds prohibited. And after the original application was denied, PA proposed to toll 80 again...and again said the money would assist with mass transit!  And again, the proposal was rejected. Deadbrained politicians at their finest.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 12, 2013, 06:12:52 PM
If Pennsylvania were to abolish the PTC, then what? 

PennDOT presumably would do like some other states (Florida, New Hampshire and Massachusetts come to mind) and create a Bureau of Turnpikes as a separate department under PennDOT management, along with all or very nearly all of the staff that used to work for the PTC.

All of the plans to kill the PTC that have been discussed just say that the roads would become PennDOT property, but don't go into much detail as to behind-the-scenes operations.  The PTC would probably just become a division, perhaps "District 7" which was supposed to be Philadelphia County's own district.

Though I really would like to see both "free" ends of I-70 transferred to the PTC.  It would allow a lot of fixing-up along the western section (where so badly needed), and if the eastern part between Breezewood and the Maryland border were to come under PTC jurisdiction, then I think we could say "bye bye" to Breezewood.

The Washington-to-New Stanton section of I-70 is planned to be upgraded, as much as it can be, over the next decade (http://www.i-70projects.com (http://www.i-70projects.com)).

As for Breezewood, it will never change, with or without a PTC.  The business owners care about one thing, and it is not continuity of an Interstate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ned Weasel on September 12, 2013, 10:43:57 PM
As for Breezewood, it will never change, with or without a PTC.  The business owners care about one thing, and it is not continuity of an Interstate.

Actually, it has changed:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.999389,-78.236394&spn=0.001068,0.002642&t=k&z=19&layer=c&cbll=39.999389,-78.236394&panoid=6h_HCvFMZ0Ci5WH4WPNEEg&cbp=12,69.74,,0,6.85

I don't know whether anyone has pointed this out yet, and it caught me by surprise.  There used to be three lanes for WB I-70/EB US 30, without a center turning lane.  I think the center turning lane helps, because it takes left-turning traffic off of the left-hand thru lane of EB I-70.

I know it's not the change many people have hoped for, but frankly, I've long thought incremental changes such as this could be an effective way of addressing the problem, rather than just hoping for a bypass that may never come.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on September 13, 2013, 07:06:46 AM
Improvements to US 30, including new signals and reconfigured lanes, were the consolation prize after the direct connection was dropped.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2013, 11:30:25 AM
The problem with I-80's tolling proposal is that they kept saying the money would go to mass transit, which the feds prohibited. And after the original application was denied, PA proposed to toll 80 again...and again said the money would assist with mass transit!  And again, the proposal was rejected. Deadbrained politicians at their finest.

It wasn't just that most of the I-80 toll revenues were to go to mass transit. It was that the a very large percentage of the toll dollars were to be diverted to mass transit employees in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (both rather far from I-80). 

Had the proposal been to fund mass transit in the I-80 corridor, then it might have been acceptable, though I cannot imagine where there would be much demand for transit, given the low population density and the lack of population along much of I-80 in Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2013, 11:34:06 AM
As for Breezewood, it will never change, with or without a PTC.  The business owners care about one thing, and it is not continuity of an Interstate.

The only sure way to remediate Breezewood and others is for Congress to make the elimination of them a condition of toll road bonds retaining their exemption from federal taxes.  That would quickly get rid of all of them, for the PTC cannot afford to have interest on its bonds suddenly become subject to federal taxes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 13, 2013, 06:11:10 PM
I know it's not the change many people have hoped for, but frankly, I've long thought incremental changes such as this could be an effective way of addressing the problem, rather than just hoping for a bypass that may never come.

I don't know there would ever be a "bypass" per say.   Probably just a couple of ramps from the Breezewood spur to SB EB I-70, and WB-I-70 to the spur towards the Turnpike mainline.


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mc78andrew on September 13, 2013, 09:45:02 PM
One other point on this from the financial side of the equation.

The states current brilliant move is to lever up the turnpike authority and basically use the funds for the states transportation spending (44 act). 

To put this in basic terms, it's like you forming an entity and borrowing money in that entity's name and then just sending that money to your personal bank account. 

This is a great way to fund yourself without putting new debt on your balance sheet.  Until the day it doesn't work anymore.  On that fateful day, the political class will have to decide whether to default on the turnpike's debt, or assume it onto the states balance sheet.

In the meantime the party lives on.  The political elite know how fun this party is and will not vote to end it by merging penndot and the turnpike authority before they absolutely have to.

If this sounds familiar to you, note that Wall Street calls this off balance sheet financing.  Ask people who worked for Lehman brothers and they tell you that there really is no such thing, but it certainly seems like there is while the party is going. 

Forget about the graft and other idiotic things that go on within this agency.  Sooner or later this thing comes under the state's realm if the 44 act continues for another few years.  Until then, why stop the cash flow party and assume the authority's existing liabilities onto the state's balance sheet by merging it into penndot?  Fannie Mae and Freddic Mac are another set of classic examples of what the state of PA will eventually do in a take over while Lehman brothers represents option "B" of filing this authority for bankruptcy after its credit card is maxed out. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 29, 2013, 12:35:21 AM
I just noted that on the PA Pike website, the project page for the widening/reconstruction for MP12-14 is up.  This includes the replacement of the Beaver River Bridge and the reconfiguration of the PA 18 interchange.  Early action bridge reconstruction of 2 RR bridges and a local road bridge are underway. 

http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/mp12to14/default.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 29, 2013, 05:43:22 PM
One other point on this from the financial side of the equation.

The states current brilliant move is to lever up the turnpike authority and basically use the funds for the states transportation spending (44 act). 

To put this in basic terms, it's like you forming an entity and borrowing money in that entity's name and then just sending that money to your personal bank account. 

This is a great way to fund yourself without putting new debt on your balance sheet.  Until the day it doesn't work anymore.  On that fateful day, the political class will have to decide whether to default on the turnpike's debt, or assume it onto the states balance sheet.

The curious fact here is that the bond markets and credit rating agencies seem to be fully aware of the PTC selling debt and then just shipping the cash off to PennDOT (to be spent on things that have nothing to do with the  Turnpike's network), yet they keep purchasing PTC bonds (which I assume are not "full faith and credit" bonds - in other words, the bondholders do not have recourse to Pennsylvania taxpayers in the event of a default).

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mc78andrew on October 06, 2013, 08:49:57 PM
One other point on this from the financial side of the equation.

The states current brilliant move is to lever up the turnpike authority and basically use the funds for the states transportation spending (44 act). 

To put this in basic terms, it's like you forming an entity and borrowing money in that entity's name and then just sending that money to your personal bank account. 

This is a great way to fund yourself without putting new debt on your balance sheet.  Until the day it doesn't work anymore.  On that fateful day, the political class will have to decide whether to default on the turnpike's debt, or assume it onto the states balance sheet.

The curious fact here is that the bond markets and credit rating agencies seem to be fully aware of the PTC selling debt and then just shipping the cash off to PennDOT (to be spent on things that have nothing to do with the  Turnpike's network), yet they keep purchasing PTC bonds (which I assume are not "full faith and credit" bonds - in other words, the bondholders do not have recourse to Pennsylvania taxpayers in the event of a default).



You are correct, the market is still purchasing pa turnpike bonds, but at a decent and ever widening discount (higher yield) as the credit metrics continue to deteriorate.  You are also correct that pa turnpike bonds are secured by the toll revenues of the road way and not the state. 

It's just hard to say what will happen here in the end game.  Would the state let the entity file for bankruptcy and then merge it into penndot (bond holders lose).  Or would they absorb/take-over/bail-out the authority and support its existing debt?  It will be an interesting bankruptcy court fight if it's the former.  If they choose that route, the bonds will get smoked and hedge funds with serious legal teams will buy them on the cheap and sue.  Their argument will be interesting since the authority has no apparent recourse to stop the syphoning of cash. Thus, you could argue that the 44 act already constitutes a tacit take over. 

I am not a lawyer though.  So who really knows?  A lot of it depends on who owns the bonds when they want to default.  Not sure that defaulting on the existing debt only to take over all operations and future matainence is that much better than continuing to pay the bonds and taking over all operations and future matainence or expansion.

The ratings agencies are paying attention. A3/A- is the worst credit rating of any of the major original thru toll roads...not talking about all the suburban ones that have popped up linking housing developments.  It'll be BBB before you know it. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on October 20, 2013, 01:14:30 PM
Turnpike officials to present 6 options to fix aging Somerset County tunnels (http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/4854699-74/tunnel-somerset-turnpike#axzz2iD0WP2cZ)

Looks like they're back at it again... which makes sense cause the tunnels aren't getting any younger.
I can't believe it's already been 12 years since the last major discussions.  It will be interesting to see how possible costs will have risen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on October 20, 2013, 07:37:14 PM
I drove eastbound today from the new Exit 320 to the NE Extension, and noticed that they are new foundations poured for new BGSs (and BBSs for the Valley Forge Plaza).  I couldn't tell if there was also work being done for the sign bridge right at Exit 326.

I find it interesting, in that at least the 320-326 stretch is due to be under construction soon.

ALSO, on the NE Ext, traffic is shifted to the newly-constructed lanes in both directions the length of the MM20-26 widening section.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 27, 2013, 03:14:18 PM
Just saw my first mixed mode (Cash & E-ZPass) exit lane on the mainline Turnpike at Harrisburg East.  It always annoyed me they couldn't make lanes mixed mode for exit lanes like most toll authorities have (the NJ Turnpike was the same way but changed a year or two ago to accept E-ZPass in all lanes).  Hopefully this will expand, but of course, AET will make this moot.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on November 27, 2013, 04:30:15 PM
There have been mixed-mode lane use in the past, especially at the smaller plazas (Wilkes-Barre, for example). I think they try to avoid it due to the risk of an inattentive driver rear-ending a cash customer. The automated plazas farther north on the Extension also have mixed-mode lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on November 27, 2013, 05:36:11 PM
On the Thruway they solve that problem by requiring ALL traffic to stop (not just cash) in mixed lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 27, 2013, 09:45:25 PM
There have been mixed-mode lane use in the past, especially at the smaller plazas (Wilkes-Barre, for example). I think they try to avoid it due to the risk of an inattentive driver rear-ending a cash customer. The automated plazas farther north on the Extension also have mixed-mode lanes.
On the Thruway they solve that problem by requiring ALL traffic to stop (not just cash) in mixed lanes.

While that fear is there, in my experiences the fear is overstated.  Not only have I not seen rear-enders in mixed-mode toll lanes, people tend to give a bit more space in case someone stops.  And when someone stops, it's not like they're slamming on the brakes - they're simply slowing down like any normal person would approaching a toll booth, stop sign, etc.  It has definitely improved the traffic flow in the interchanges.  Heck, people tend to rear end others in cash-only lanes, when everyone knows the car in front of them is stopping.

On the other hand, it seems on a daily basis on the highways I'll see people on the shoulder after a minor rear-end collision in normal congestion.

Like most things - mixed mode lanes have been around for many years, and the fears people exhibit don't equal the reality. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 27, 2013, 10:54:38 PM
I should have noted it was the first manned lane I saw with both cash & E-ZPass capability.

As for the rationale for having mixed-mode lanes, it prevents all the weaving at the toll plazas to find the "cash only" or "E-ZPass Only" lanes.  I can imagine that would cause more accidents than rear-ending someone stopped to pay cash in a mixed-mode lane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on November 28, 2013, 01:19:03 PM
MASTERNC, I was also speaking of cash & E-Z Pass lanes.

I also agree the fear of toll plaza accidents is overstated, I remember the HAR specifically warning about it happening in mixed-mode lanes.

The non-widespread use of mixed-mode exit lanes on the Turnpike is annoying when queuing behind large trucks that are slowing down (safely) to go through the lanes, especially at the barrier tolls as the cash lanes sit increasingly empty.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman on December 03, 2013, 01:46:22 PM

PennDOT presumably would do like some other states (Florida, New Hampshire and Massachusetts come to mind) and create a Bureau of Turnpikes as a separate department under PennDOT management, along with all or very nearly all of the staff that used to work for the PTC.

MassDOT does not have a separate Bureau of Turnpikes (or equivalent sub-agency).  Rather, jurisdiction of the Mass Turnpike/I-90 now falls under the individual District offices responsible for the section of I-90 that runs through their area.  While the MassDOT "merger" resulted in an additional District (District 6) that covers the Greater Boston area, District 6's responsibilites extend beyond the Turnpike Extension and the former Metropolitan Highway System (which consisted mostly of the I-90/I-93 tunnel system).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on December 17, 2013, 12:47:26 PM
Stupid question... isn't the equipment needed installed in all lanes on the PATP? If so, do they actively disable it in cash-only lanes when they're staffed? If not, is there any reason you *can't* just go through any cash lane with E-Z Pass?
I personally hate mixed-use lanes, but that's entirely due to my own discomfort with just kinda blowing past a toll collector without giving him money or even rolling down the window. It just feels weird.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on December 17, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
Stupid question... isn't the equipment needed installed in all lanes on the PATP? If so, do they actively disable it in cash-only lanes when they're staffed? If not, is there any reason you *can't* just go through any cash lane with E-Z Pass?

It appears the answer is, surprisingly, yes–they do disable the E-ZPass equipment in cash only lanes. According to the PTC (http://www.paturnpike.com/ezpass/personalfaq.htm#entered), if you enter through an E-ZPass lane] and attempt to exit through a cash only lane, the human toll taker at the exit point will charge you the "lost ticket" rate (maximum possible toll), but you can request a form to get the overpayment refunded.

To intentionally disable the equipment that's ALREADY THERE and thereby incur $25 in administrative costs to refund a $10 toll seems incredibly stupid to me. I can understand them wanting to discourage mixed cash/E-ZPass traffic through a lane because of the potential for speed differential, unexpected stops, and collisions, but disabling the equipment is ridiculous.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 17, 2013, 01:49:50 PM
Stupid question... isn't the equipment needed installed in all lanes on the PATP? If so, do they actively disable it in cash-only lanes when they're staffed? If not, is there any reason you *can't* just go through any cash lane with E-Z Pass?

It appears the answer is, surprisingly, yes—they do disable the E-ZPass equipment in cash only lanes. According to the PTC (http://www.paturnpike.com/ezpass/personalfaq.htm#entered), if you enter through an E-ZPass lane] and attempt to exit through a cash only lane, the human toll taker at the exit point will charge you the "lost ticket" rate (maximum possible toll), but you can request a form to get the overpayment refunded.

To intentionally disable the equipment that's ALREADY THERE and thereby incur $25 in administrative costs to refund a $10 toll seems incredibly stupid to me. I can understand them wanting to discourage mixed cash/E-ZPass traffic through a lane because of the potential for speed differential, unexpected stops, and collisions, but disabling the equipment is ridiculous.

The NJ Turnpike had the equipment installed for years before allowing the mixed-mode option.  In addition, the lanes on the DRPA bridges are either cash or EZ Pass only.  Some of the cash lanes do have the equipment installed, and they would be used for EZ Pass when usage warranted (such as during rush hour, when the majority of traffic used EZ Pass). 

On the PA Turnpike, it could be a union agreement that prevents mixed-mode lanes. Just a guess on my part though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 17, 2013, 07:18:39 PM
Stupid question... isn't the equipment needed installed in all lanes on the PATP? If so, do they actively disable it in cash-only lanes when they're staffed? If not, is there any reason you *can't* just go through any cash lane with E-Z Pass?

It appears the answer is, surprisingly, yes–they do disable the E-ZPass equipment in cash only lanes. According to the PTC (http://www.paturnpike.com/ezpass/personalfaq.htm#entered), if you enter through an E-ZPass lane] and attempt to exit through a cash only lane, the human toll taker at the exit point will charge you the "lost ticket" rate (maximum possible toll), but you can request a form to get the overpayment refunded.

To intentionally disable the equipment that's ALREADY THERE and thereby incur $25 in administrative costs to refund a $10 toll seems incredibly stupid to me. I can understand them wanting to discourage mixed cash/E-ZPass traffic through a lane because of the potential for speed differential, unexpected stops, and collisions, but disabling the equipment is ridiculous.
They're not the only agency, either. I forget who, but either the MTA or Port Authority also won't do mixed mode. (We were discussing both in the context of a particular bridge project.) It definitely crimps travel flexibility - and roadway design flexibility through the plaza, especially when you have nearby entrances/exits with traffic splits through the plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 13, 2014, 09:13:16 PM
Well, as another user on this board hinted when one of his friends said construction oversight was being procured for the Southern Beltway, the PTC just announced awarding of contracts for construction management and construction of bridges over US 22.

No timeline on the press release but I read somewhere else the date would be 2019.

http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2014/20140113154415.htm

Also, the construction website for the Swatara Creek bridge replacement is now up.

http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/swataracreekbridge/default.aspx

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 15, 2014, 08:33:41 AM
Once the Swatara Creek bridge is complete it will have it's 3rd lane striped out until such time as the connecting mailine is widened, but seeing that the PA pike is already 6 lanes to Harrisburg East, I can'r picture it being too long until that gap from 283 to Swatara is under way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2014, 04:16:52 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140124__155M_approved_to_link_I-95_and_Pa__Turnpike.html

$155 million approved to do work involving linking (but not actually linking) the PA Turnpike to I-95.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Compulov on January 27, 2014, 05:43:48 PM
It appears the answer is, surprisingly, yes–they do disable the E-ZPass equipment in cash only lanes. According to the PTC (http://www.paturnpike.com/ezpass/personalfaq.htm#entered), if you enter through an E-ZPass lane] and attempt to exit through a cash only lane, the human toll taker at the exit point will charge you the "lost ticket" rate (maximum possible toll), but you can request a form to get the overpayment refunded.

To intentionally disable the equipment that's ALREADY THERE and thereby incur $25 in administrative costs to refund a $10 toll seems incredibly stupid to me. I can understand them wanting to discourage mixed cash/E-ZPass traffic through a lane because of the potential for speed differential, unexpected stops, and collisions, but disabling the equipment is ridiculous.
They're not the only agency, either. I forget who, but either the MTA or Port Authority also won't do mixed mode. (We were discussing both in the context of a particular bridge project.) It definitely crimps travel flexibility - and roadway design flexibility through the plaza, especially when you have nearby entrances/exits with traffic splits through the plaza.

About the only possible argument I could see (other than the possibility of union contracts prohibiting it) is maybe a safety argument? I'd imagine you don't want to encourage EZPass users to use non-EZPass lanes since they're more likely to blow through without due care (and aren't the EZPass lanes typically moved to the edges so as to minimize the interaction between toll collectors walking through the lanes and drivers who aren't stopping to pay a toll?) Even so, I don't see why you don't at least have the damn things turned on, so if you get some random lost person driving through, they're not penalized because of it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 27, 2014, 09:18:58 PM
Well, it's impossible to avoid it completely on older barriers.  Newer Thruway barriers have some pretty creative solutions though (such as putting the E-ZPass lanes in the center and having a pedestrian crosswalk).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on January 27, 2014, 09:23:55 PM
Newer Thruway barriers have some pretty creative solutions though (such as putting the E-ZPass lanes in the center and having a pedestrian crosswalk).
Newer Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority plazas have an enclosed pedestrian overpass: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.644084,-81.507182&spn=0.015272,0.028346&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=28.644184,-81.507416&panoid=O5iMhA5UgL-8uwzFnkXIHw&cbp=12,41.48,,0,-3.73
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: lepidopteran on January 28, 2014, 06:45:43 PM
Some toll plazas have an underground passageway, with an access stairway at every single booth!

The (relatively) new toll plaza with the "lighthouse" at the southern end of the NJ Turnpike has a conspicuous overhead walkway.  I think they still have to cross at least some (ticketed) lanes to get to their booth, though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 28, 2014, 08:07:25 PM
Some toll plazas have an underground passageway, with an access stairway at every single booth!

The (relatively) new toll plaza with the "lighthouse" at the southern end of the NJ Turnpike has a conspicuous overhead walkway.  I think they still have to cross at least some (ticketed) lanes to get to their booth, though.

Yep - there's a few elevators/stairways to get to/from the toll booths, but one may have to cross up to 4 lanes to get to the nearest access. While they don't cross the express EZ Pass lanes, they may have to cross the regular lanes, which may be cash/EZ Pass, EZ Pass, or closed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2014, 09:38:11 PM
Some toll plazas have an underground passageway, with an access stairway at every single booth!

The (relatively) new toll plaza with the "lighthouse" at the southern end of the NJ Turnpike has a conspicuous overhead walkway.  I think they still have to cross at least some (ticketed) lanes to get to their booth, though.

I have been in the tunnels under the toll barriers on the Dulles Toll Road (Va. 267), Dulles Greenway (also 267) and Maryland's Fort McHenry Tunnel (I-95).  Either a stairway for each lane, or every other lane. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on January 28, 2014, 10:45:50 PM
But I suppose none of this will matter in a few years if the PA Turnpike does go all electronic by 2018 as planned.

According to their AET site (http://www.paturnpike.com/aet_public/aet.asp), the NY Thruway and Mass Pike are scheduled to go all-electronic in 2016 and the AC Expressway by 2015. No mention of the NJTP or GSP, though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 28, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 28, 2014, 11:28:00 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.
Everything I have quoted is correct. I have no clue as to any other part of the system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 30, 2014, 05:43:41 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.

Harriman is the southern end of the Thruway "main" ticket (closed) system.  Why would the Thruway Authority want to spend money on that unless they are going to flip the entire system to AET?

Otherwise, I would assume that Harriman, along with the Tappan Zee and Yonkers barriers are the busiest on the entire Thruway system, so it makes plenty of sense to convert those - and at the Tappan Zee, AET would allow a return to two-way tolling if the Authority wanted to go that way

Though would some drivers be attracted to the T-Z to avoid the (high) tolls on the Port Authority crossings if the eastbound Tappan Zee toll was reduced as part of two-way tolling?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 30, 2014, 06:47:40 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.

Harriman is the southern end of the Thruway "main" ticket (closed) system.  Why would the Thruway Authority want to spend money on that unless they are going to flip the entire system to AET?

Otherwise, I would assume that Harriman, along with the Tappan Zee and Yonkers barriers are the busiest on the entire Thruway system, so it makes plenty of sense to convert those - and at the Tappan Zee, AET would allow a return to two-way tolling if the Authority wanted to go that way

Though would some drivers be attracted to the T-Z to avoid the (high) tolls on the Port Authority crossings if the eastbound Tappan Zee toll was reduced as part of two-way tolling?
Harriman is different than Woodbury. They're only converting the one on 17.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 30, 2014, 07:57:54 PM
Newer Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority plazas have an enclosed pedestrian overpass: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.644084,-81.507182&spn=0.015272,0.028346&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=28.644184,-81.507416&panoid=O5iMhA5UgL-8uwzFnkXIHw&cbp=12,41.48,,0,-3.73

The PA Turnpike constructed pedestrian overpasses over the express EZ-Pass lanes for 2 of the toll plazas on the Mon-Fayette (PA TPK-43). 
When the PTC had a "community day" before opening the Mon-Fayette section from Rt. 51 to near I-70 I was able to walk thru that one.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:58:23 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.

Harriman is the southern end of the Thruway "main" ticket (closed) system.  Why would the Thruway Authority want to spend money on that unless they are going to flip the entire system to AET?

Otherwise, I would assume that Harriman, along with the Tappan Zee and Yonkers barriers are the busiest on the entire Thruway system, so it makes plenty of sense to convert those - and at the Tappan Zee, AET would allow a return to two-way tolling if the Authority wanted to go that way

Though would some drivers be attracted to the T-Z to avoid the (high) tolls on the Port Authority crossings if the eastbound Tappan Zee toll was reduced as part of two-way tolling?
That's Woodbury actually.  Harriman, Woodbury, and exit 16 form a really strange system.  Staying on I-87 is just a conventional get ticket/pay toll interaction with Woodbury.  I-87 south to NY 17 is a similarly conventional system for exit 16 (using a booth divided from the rest of Harriman).  NY 17 to I-87 south is a single barrier interaction with Harriman.

Now it's time to get funky.  Traveling from NY 17 to I-87 north involves the barrier interaction with Harriman as before, but then traffic is immediately funneled into a separated booth in Woodbury to receive a discounted exit 16 ticket.

I just had a thought though.  When Harriman goes AET, there will be no reason to keep it on the exit 16 ramps.  The gantry could easily be set up on the Thruway mainline between exits 15A and 16, eliminating the two-step system presently used to get on I-87 north.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on January 30, 2014, 08:19:13 PM
Now it's time to get funky.  Traveling from NY 17 to I-87 north involves the barrier interaction with Harriman as before, but then traffic is immediately funneled into a separated booth in Woodbury to receive a discounted exit 16 ticket.

I made that movement a few years ago and was confused why I'd have to go through two booths instead of one. I had E-Z pass and I think I may have had a conversation with a booth attendant about the setup.

I'd say that movement (NY 17 southbound to I-87 northbound) is probably the least-used at that exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 30, 2014, 09:25:58 PM
Something I wonder about the Swatara Creek project:  I note that an existing bridge over Vine Street in Middletown is to be replaced.  I also note that immediately north of the turnpike overcrossing that Vine Street becomes 4 lanes divided and is an important connector to the 283 freeway from Middletown.  I wonder if the PTC plans to make the new bridge wide enough to accomodate a wider Vine Street.  Even if such widening is not needed for another 10-20 years O think it would be a wise move.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 30, 2014, 11:11:04 PM

I just had a thought though.  When Harriman goes AET, there will be no reason to keep it on the exit 16 ramps.  The gantry could easily be set up on the Thruway mainline between exits 15A and 16, eliminating the two-step system presently used to get on I-87 north.
Trust me, this was examined. (It's possible that I was involved...) I think the non-starter is because the mainline isn't AET yet, so they need a condition that works for the NY 17 ramps. Will this be revisited? That hasn't been determined, because no one's drawn up the final condition, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 30, 2014, 11:41:24 PM
Harriman is different than Woodbury. They're only converting the one on 17.

Thanks - I always think about those two being the same (they are not, even though they are nearby), and your point is correct.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 30, 2014, 11:45:05 PM
That's Woodbury actually.  Harriman, Woodbury, and exit 16 form a really strange system.  Staying on I-87 is just a conventional get ticket/pay toll interaction with Woodbury.  I-87 south to NY 17 is a similarly conventional system for exit 16 (using a booth divided from the rest of Harriman).  NY 17 to I-87 south is a single barrier interaction with Harriman.

All correct.

Now it's time to get funky.  Traveling from NY 17 to I-87 north involves the barrier interaction with Harriman as before, but then traffic is immediately funneled into a separated booth in Woodbury to receive a discounted exit 16 ticket.

I have done that movement, and they even make E-ZPass patrons come to a stop (!) there.

I just had a thought though.  When Harriman goes AET, there will be no reason to keep it on the exit 16 ramps.  The gantry could easily be set up on the Thruway mainline between exits 15A and 16, eliminating the two-step system presently used to get on I-87 north.

I think that is also correct.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 31, 2014, 02:30:54 PM
Another one I hadn't thought of is that the AET gantries could be set up on the ramps.  It still seems very unusual to me for a traffic to go through an all-electronic ganty and then pick up a ticket for the NY 17 to I-87 north movement.

Having E-ZPass traffic stop completely is a NYSTA policy for mixed-mode booths, usually affecting small exits that only have one booth for traffic entering the Thruway.  They actually have it set up so that the operation has to manually change the traffic light when an E-ZPass tag is read.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on March 28, 2014, 07:27:56 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike to raise tolls in 2015 (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2014/03/28/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-to-raise-tolls-in-2015/stories/201403280114)

The headline shouldn't be much of a surprise here. 

Though the article mentions that the conversion to AET will take longer than they thought, and briefly covers other stuff that has probably been brought up in other threads around the forums.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on March 29, 2014, 01:08:23 AM
Keep raising the tolls until the entire Turnpike has been reconstructed, and then when that's done, use it to smack down all the business owners near the major highway junctions that don't yet have direct connections.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 29, 2014, 06:09:16 PM
Unfortunately all the toll increases currently go to mass transit in Pittsburg and Philadelphia.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: TheKnightoftheInterstate on March 30, 2014, 12:24:17 AM
Unfortunately all the toll increases currently go to mass transit in Pittsburg and Philadelphia.

This!

Environmentalists, cyclists, NIMBYs, and mass transit supporters are going to be the death of the great American road system. They are leeches on the bloodline of America.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 03, 2014, 06:06:22 PM
Philly.com: Cost of Pa. turnpike 'pay-to-play' - about $45M (http://articles.philly.com/2014-04-02/news/48805609_1_turnpike-commission-ciber-inc-sheppard)

Quote
How much does "pay-to-play" contracting cost the public?

Quote
About $45 million, in one episode at the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, according to a recent analysis of a contract for computer software.

Quote
The analysis concluded that the turnpike commission paid far too much and received far too little when it bought a software system from Ciber Inc., of Greenwood Village, Colo., whose former vice president has been charged by state prosecutors with giving gifts to turnpike officials to win contracts.

Quote
The report said the turnpike commission paid about five times more than it should have - for a faulty system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on April 23, 2014, 07:56:55 AM
I just came across a map (http://transportation.pasenategop.com/files/2013/07/Recon-Map_poster.pdf) detailing the past, present and future reconstruction work on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, updated last July. It includes several future projects contingent upon the passage of Act 89. Here's the list of completed, ongoing and future projects:


Completed
(With year of completion)

- MM 94 to MM 99 (2000)*

- MM 186 to MM 199 (2001)*

- MM 75 to MM 85 (2002)*

- MM 38 to MM 40 (2005)*
- MM 85 to MM 94 (2005)*
- MM 109 to MM 121 (2005)*

- MM 331 to MM 333 (2006)

- MM 124 to MM 128 (2008)*
- MM 245 to MM 247 (2008)
- MM 326 to MM 331 (2008)

- MM 0 to MM 10 (2009)
- MM 210 to MM 215 (2009)

- MM 48 to MM 50 (2010)

- MM 67 to MM 75 (2011)

- MM 31 to MM 38 (2012)
- MM 319 to MM 320 (2012)
- MM A74 to MM A75 (2012)

- MM 199 to MM 202 (2013)

BLUE: Denotes a segment that did not involve lane capacity expansion.
PURPLE: Denotes a segment slated for future lane capacity expansion.
*: Denotes a segment that will require future lane capacity expansion.


Sometime between 2005 and 2008, the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission must have decided to do lane capacity expansion on the entire Turnpike.


Ongoing
(With projected year of completion)

- MM A20 to MM A26 (2013)

- MM 206 to MM 210 (2014)


Future
(With projected year of design completion)

- MM 220 to MM 227 (2013)
- MM 242 to MM 245 (2013)
- MM A26 to MM A31 (2013)

- MM 40 to MM 48 (2014)
- MM 202 to MM 206 (2014)
- MM 250 to MM 252 (2014)
- MM 320 to MM 326 (2014)

- MM 99 to MM 109 (2015)

- MM 12 to MM 14 (2016)
- MM 28 to MM 31 (2016)
- MM 150 to MM 156 (2016)
- MM 312 to MM 319 (2016)

- MM 53 to MM 57 (2017)
- MM 57 to MM 67 (2017)
- MM 180 to MM 186 (2017)
- MM A31 to MM A38 (2017)
- MM A38 to MM A44 (2017)
- MM A88 to MM A89 (2017)

- MM 49 to MM 53 (2018)
- MM 156 to MM 162 (2018)*
- MM 298 to MM 302 (2018)
- MM 302 to MM 308 (2018)
- MM 308 to MM 312 (2018)
- MM A44 to MM A48 (2018)*
- MM A48 to MM A53 (2018)*
- MM A53 to MM A57 (2018)*

- MM 124 to MM 134 (20??)
- MM 315 to MM 359 (20??)

RED: Denotes a design project that might entail interchange reconstruction.
BLUE: Denotes a design project that does not involve lane capacity expansion.
*: Denotes a design project enabled by the passage of Act 89.


This leaves the following segments still unaccounted for:


- MM 10 to MM 12
- MM 14 to MM 28
- MM 121 to MM 124
- MM 134 to MM 150
- MM 162 to MM 180
- MM 227 to MM 242
- MM 247 to MM 250
- MM 252 to MM 298
- MM 333 to MM 351
- MM A57 to MM A74
- MM A75 to MM A88
- MM A89 to MM A132


That's 208 of the 491 miles of the Turnpike and the Northeast Extension. It looks like the total reconstruction project is nearing its halfway point.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on April 23, 2014, 09:18:59 AM
333 to 351 was widened in the late 1980s.  Likely needs to be resurfaced, but not another full reconstruction.

351 to 358 (not listed above) is part of the I-95/Turnpike interchange project.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 23, 2014, 10:21:45 AM
12-14 is under construction now and includes the replacement of the Beaver River Bridge and eliminaton of the PA 18 double trumpet
40-48 is also under construction now
121-124 is the Allegheny Tunnel
134-150 would involve the I-99, Us 220 Bedford Interchange
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on April 23, 2014, 12:23:09 PM
I guess the way the Turnpike Commission did the list was a bit particular, because they say that MM 12 to MM 14 and MM 40 to MM 48 are still in design, but I guess that's probably referring to the mainline because the construction currently taking place in those zones is bridge replacement.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 23, 2014, 12:34:50 PM
I am curious:  Are there any Turnpike mainline ADT's approaching or surpassing the 8 lane level, other than say the Delaware River Bridge after the 95 ramps are done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2014, 12:45:09 PM
I am curious:  Are there any Turnpike mainline ADT's approaching or surpassing the 8 lane level, other than say the Delaware River Bridge after the 95 ramps are done.

Probably not with the Act 44-related tolls that the Turnpike Commission has to charge its patrons!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on April 23, 2014, 04:23:09 PM
Work is now starting on the Swatara Creek bridge replacement project.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/04/turnpike_begins_work_on_48_mil.html (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/04/turnpike_begins_work_on_48_mil.html)

Additionally, MP242-245 widening goes to bid in December
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 23, 2014, 09:21:58 PM
I am curious:  Are there any Turnpike mainline ADT's approaching or surpassing the 8 lane level, other than say the Delaware River Bridge after the 95 ramps are done.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case in the Philly area, especially near the NE Extension Interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on May 27, 2014, 03:50:04 PM
Turnpike work set to begin (http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2014/05/27/Turnpike-work-set-to-begin/stories/201405270101)

Not really any great new information... but they say the Allegheny Valley to PA-8 section is on schedule.
(When they had this article posted this morning, it was with a picture of a freeway in Virginia, but they since changed it)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 27, 2014, 08:46:48 PM
..just an FYI, there is a sign replacement project on the eastern portion of the Turnpike...definitely includes Exit 312 through to Exit 343.  There are concrete foundations placed in most places, and it looks like many of the sign bridges both on the mainline and on the interchange ramps are being replaced with monotube structures. 

The 2 mile advance BGS eastbound for Exit 333 used to read TO 476 SOUTH | Norristown...it now reads 476 SOUTH | Chester.  Most of the other signs haven't been replaced yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 28, 2014, 08:18:22 AM
..just an FYI, there is a sign replacement project on the eastern portion of the Turnpike...definitely includes Exit 312 through to Exit 343.  There are concrete foundations placed in most places, and it looks like many of the sign bridges both on the mainline and on the interchange ramps are being replaced with monotube structures. 

The 2 mile advance BGS eastbound for Exit 333 used to read TO 476 SOUTH | Norristown...it now reads 476 SOUTH | Chester.  Most of the other signs haven't been replaced yet.
About time IMHO.  All the Norristown exit BGS' along eastbound 276 should include 476 SOUTH references.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on May 28, 2014, 09:58:49 AM
Speaking of sign changes along the Turnpike, I like the idea of renaming some of them to better reflect the major cities they pass. In the Pittsburgh area, you have Exit 28 which is currently named 'Cranberry,' and Exit 57 which is currently named 'Pittsburgh.' I say name Exit 28 'Pittsburgh North' and Exit 57 'Pittsburgh East.' In the Philadelphia area, you have Exit 326 which is currently named 'Valley Forge,' and you'll soon have Exit 357 when the I-95 interchange is completed. I say name Exit 326 'Philadelphia West' and Exit 357 'Philadelphia East.' Doing this would make both cities accounted for by traffic from both directions.

Another idea I have that would promote tourism a bit is for Exit 91 (Donegal) and Exit 110 (Somerset) to have a series of signs listing various notable and recreational destinations. Envision these as signs:


STATE PARKS
Bear Run
Kooser
Laurel Hill
Laurel Mountain
EXIT 91

STATE PARKS
Laurel Ridge
Laurel Summit
Linn Run
Ohiopyle
EXIT 91

HISTORIC SITES
Braddock's Grave
Fort Ligonier
Fort Necessity Nat'l Battlefield
Laurel Caverns
EXIT 91

RESORTS
Hidden Valley
Nemacolin Woodlands
Seven Springs
The Springs at Laurel Mountain
EXIT 91

DESTINATIONS
Fallingwater
Great Allegheny Passage
Idlewild Park and Soak Zone
Youghiogheny Lake
EXIT 91

HISTORIC SITES
Flight 93 National Memorial
Johnstown Flood Memorial
EXIT 110

DESTINATIONS
Lake Quemahoning
Mount Davis
Stonycreek Lake
EXIT 110


I do think Pennsylvania should promote some of its destinations better than it does, and one thing that would help would be more and better signage for them on the highways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on May 28, 2014, 11:54:00 AM
Does the MUTCD allow that many destinations even for brown guide signs? In any case, here's a mockup of what the exit 110 sign may look like...

(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/Zeffyboy/Signs/PARecreationSigns-Exit110_zps53c89811.png)

This is a positive contrast situation, and it's PennDOT, so not using Clearview is just silly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 28, 2014, 12:10:44 PM
Speaking of sign changes along the Turnpike, I like the idea of renaming some of them to better reflect the major cities they pass. In the Pittsburgh area, you have Exit 28 which is currently named 'Cranberry,' and Exit 57 which is currently named 'Pittsburgh.' I say name Exit 28 'Pittsburgh North' and Exit 57 'Pittsburgh East.' In the Philadelphia area, you have Exit 326 which is currently named 'Valley Forge,' and you'll soon have Exit 357 when the I-95 interchange is completed. I say name Exit 326 'Philadelphia West' and Exit 357 'Philadelphia East.' Doing this would make both cities accounted for by traffic from both directions.

I get what you're getting at here, although I generally hate dividing cities up like this, especially since a city like Philadelphia doesn't really have West & East per se. 

Neighborhood areas are described by their direction...West Philly is basically a crime ridden area; there's 'North Philly' & 'South Philly', but 'East Philly' doesn't really exist at all.

And by keeping people on the Turnpike an extra 30 miles alone, when they could've been at their destination in less than 20 via 76 or 95, probably doesn't help traffic flow either as traffic volumes on the PA Turnpike are quite high in this area.

In a case like Philly, I think simply stating Philadelphia is good enough for those travelling from either direction, as the routes from the PA Turnpike run in a convenient angle towards the city.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 28, 2014, 01:07:05 PM
Does the MUTCD allow that many destinations even for brown guide signs? In any case, here's a mockup of what the exit 110 sign may look like...
That's supposed to be Flight 93, assuming that you're referring to the UA 757 crash site circa 9/11/01.

I get what you're getting at here, although I generally hate dividing cities up like this, especially since a city like Philadelphia doesn't really have West & East per se. 

Neighborhood areas are described by their direction...West Philly is basically a crime ridden area; there's 'North Philly' & 'South Philly', but 'East Philly' doesn't really exist at all.

And by keeping people on the Turnpike an extra 30 miles alone, when they could've been at their destination in less than 20 via 76 or 95, probably doesn't help traffic flow either as traffic volumes on the PA Turnpike are quite high in this area.

In a case like Philly, I think simply stating Philadelphia is good enough for those travelling from either direction, as the routes from the PA Turnpike run in a convenient angle towards the city.
At present, eastbounders along the PA Turnpike (I-76) encounter a supplemental sign just over two miles prior to the Valley Forge exit that reads Philadelphia NEXT 5 EXITS (http://goo.gl/maps/0SZyy).  Giving 2 interchanges along the Turnpike that contain the exact same name, Philadelphia in this case, with no distinction at all will actually cause more confusion IMHO than it would solve; especially when one reads the toll rate/ticket schedule.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on May 28, 2014, 01:10:56 PM
Goddammit. Fixed.

(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/Zeffyboy/Signs/PARecreationSigns-Exit110_zpsa83fed92.png)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 28, 2014, 01:31:31 PM
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/Zeffyboy/Signs/PARecreationSigns-Exit110_zpsa83fed92.png)
93 should be in Highway Gothic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on May 28, 2014, 01:53:02 PM
Speaking of sign changes along the Turnpike, I like the idea of renaming some of them to better reflect the major cities they pass. In the Pittsburgh area, you have Exit 28 which is currently named 'Cranberry,' and Exit 57 which is currently named 'Pittsburgh.' I say name Exit 28 'Pittsburgh North' and Exit 57 'Pittsburgh East.' In the Philadelphia area, you have Exit 326 which is currently named 'Valley Forge,' and you'll soon have Exit 357 when the I-95 interchange is completed. I say name Exit 326 'Philadelphia West' and Exit 357 'Philadelphia East.' Doing this would make both cities accounted for by traffic from both directions.

Hmmm.... Personally, I kinda feel the exact opposite way.  I like that the interchange names more reflect where the interchange itself is,  and the control destinations can indicate the major cities serviced. 
For example, I'd actually change the "Pittsburgh" interchange to "Monroeville", and "Butler Valley" to probably either "Hampton" or "Gibsonia" ("Allegheny Valley" is in the actual Allegheny Valley, so it's fine)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 28, 2014, 01:54:11 PM
I get what you're getting at here, although I generally hate dividing cities up like this, especially since a city like Philadelphia doesn't really have West & East per se. 

Neighborhood areas are described by their direction...West Philly is basically a crime ridden area; there's 'North Philly' & 'South Philly', but 'East Philly' doesn't really exist at all.

And by keeping people on the Turnpike an extra 30 miles alone, when they could've been at their destination in less than 20 via 76 or 95, probably doesn't help traffic flow either as traffic volumes on the PA Turnpike are quite high in this area.

In a case like Philly, I think simply stating Philadelphia is good enough for those travelling from either direction, as the routes from the PA Turnpike run in a convenient angle towards the city.
At present, eastbounders along the PA Turnpike (I-76) encounter a supplemental sign just over two miles prior to the Valley Forge exit that reads Philadelphia NEXT 5 EXITS (http://goo.gl/maps/0SZyy).  Giving 2 interchanges along the Turnpike that contain the exact same name, Philadelphia in this case, with no distinction at all will actually cause more confusion IMHO than it would solve; especially when one reads the toll rate/ticket schedule.

How much confusion has it caused over the past 60 or so years?

Being that there's no East Philadelphia, how does one even define East Philadelphia, much less go to East Philadelphia?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on May 28, 2014, 02:06:47 PM
How much confusion has it caused over the past 60 or so years?

Being that there's no East Philadelphia, how does one even define East Philadelphia, much less go to East Philadelphia?

Let's look at Google Maps!

(http://i.imgur.com/KW4gmiT.png)

...oh, there's a North, South, and West Philadelphia. Guess they didn't want an eastern Philly. I mean, you could call Camden East Philadelphia, though I'm not sure Camdenites would appreciate that... or maybe they would?

Even more interesting is the fact that they have a "South Philadelphia West" labeled on the map.



93 should be in Highway Gothic.

While I am a Clearview opposer, I believe that in situations like this, and others where numerals are used in the main destination legend (such as numbered street names), that the numerals should be allowed to remain in Clearview, just because switching fonts in the middle of the same line of text just seems odd to me. However, were this sign in, say, New Jersey, I would've easily made the entire sign in Highway Gothic, but since I was going for how PennDOT does these things, I stuck with Clearview.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 28, 2014, 03:47:27 PM
At present, eastbounders along the PA Turnpike (I-76) encounter a supplemental sign just over two miles prior to the Valley Forge exit that reads Philadelphia NEXT 5 EXITS (http://goo.gl/maps/0SZyy).  Giving 2 interchanges along the Turnpike that contain the exact same name, Philadelphia in this case, with no distinction at all will actually cause more confusion IMHO than it would solve; especially when one reads the toll rate/ticket schedule.

How much confusion has it caused over the past 60 or so years?
Last time I checked, there's only been one PA Turnpike interchange called/named Philadelphia: until recently, it was always the US 1 interchange (since renamed Bensalem); and it will be the new I-95/195 interchange.  Not sure where you're getting the notion that PTC has more than one interchange simultaneously named Philadelphia.

The fore-mentioned supplemental sign stating Philadelphia NEXT 5 EXITS by no means was stating that the PA Turnpike has five interchanges named Philadelphia; just that it has five connections to roads that lead into Philadelphia and most here, including yourself, knows that.

Being that there's no East Philadelphia, how does one even define East Philadelphia, much less go to East Philadelphia?
To the best of my knowledge, there's no East Harrisburg nor West Harrisburg either; nonetheless there are Turnpike interchanges named Harrisburg East and Harrisburg West.  Granted, the Susquehanna River (& bridge crossing) is a more definitive line of demarcation and the directional suffixes for those two interchanges were likely applied in relation to such.

That said, Gnutella was suggesting that there be two interchanges named Philadelphia with cardinal suffixes not prefixes to separate them.  Nonetheless, the possibility of one confusing an interchange named Philadelphia West with the neighborhood of West Philadelphia could indeed happen; though using the Schuylkill from Valley Forge is indeed the best way to get to West Philly.

Even more interesting is the fact that they have a "South Philadelphia West" labeled on the map.
That's obviously a mistake.  It should read Southwest Philadelphia.

93 should be in Highway Gothic.

While I am a Clearview opposer, I believe that in situations like this, and others where numerals are used in the main destination legend (such as numbered street names), that the numerals should be allowed to remain in Clearview, just because switching fonts in the middle of the same line of text just seems odd to me.
Such case-mixing (in attempt to follow FHWA guidelines) has actually been done, note the 2ND listing next to St. listing on this BGS (http://goo.gl/maps/I4SeH)

Granted, such does look odd.  In those situations, I would just make the entire line involving numerals and/or Caps Highway Gothic; much like the EXIT 110 listing on your BBS example.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 28, 2014, 09:30:38 PM
I suppose the question could be "why will the I-95 interchange have a name at all", given that the Pennsylvania Turnpike wants to go all-electronic well before the first flyovers are finished.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DrSmith on May 28, 2014, 10:47:27 PM
The names may also be for internal use as well.  I know they have them for the Jersey Turnpike (or did at least), even though they were not posted on the signs.  If I remember correctly Interchange 1 was Gateway, 3 was Black Horse, I really have trouble remembering them since its been a long time now
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 29, 2014, 08:53:38 PM
If the slip ramps have names at all, they're internal only, because they don't appear on the signs.  I don't see why the I-95 interchange wouldn't have the same deal, in which case there would have been no need to rename Philadelphia/Bensalem.  But I guess that's what you get when you take over 40 years to build a single interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on June 17, 2014, 01:17:44 PM
Tolls going up.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140618_Cross-state_cost_on_Pa__Turnpike_in_2015___46_05.html

Quote
The decision by the Turnpike Commission Tuesday to hike tolls for the seventh year in a row means the cash toll to drive from the Ohio border to the New Jersey border will be $46.05 for passenger cars, up from the current $43.85.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140618_Cross-state_cost_on_Pa__Turnpike_in_2015___46_05.html#vHpTMvxhKF1dIIGe.99

(As of the posting of this link, the picture used in the story is of the NJ Turnpike, not the PA Turnpike.  :-D)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 17, 2014, 02:01:36 PM
Tolls going up.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140618_Cross-state_cost_on_Pa__Turnpike_in_2015___46_05.html

Quote
The decision by the Turnpike Commission Tuesday to hike tolls for the seventh year in a row means the cash toll to drive from the Ohio border to the New Jersey border will be $46.05 for passenger cars, up from the current $43.85.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140618_Cross-state_cost_on_Pa__Turnpike_in_2015___46_05.html#vHpTMvxhKF1dIIGe.99

(As of the posting of this link, the picture used in the story is of the NJ Turnpike, not the PA Turnpike.  :-D)
Somebody actually mentioned such in the Comments section of the article as well.

This increase is, once again, Act 44-related.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: andy3175 on June 18, 2014, 12:55:11 AM
http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/penndot-turnpike-to-study-a-scranton-bypass-1.1702274

Quote
An engineering study will examine connecting Interstate 476 – also known as the turnpike – and I-81 at two points outside Scranton, one near Avoca and a second near South Abington Twp. It would create a bypass dubbed the Scranton Beltway.

The study is part of a long-range plan to address congestion in the Interstate 81 corridor in Northeast Pennsylvania, according to Pennsylvania Department of Transportation and Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission officials who made the announcement with lawmakers in Pittston Twp.

State transportation secretary Barry Schoch said the study, expected to cost about $500,000, will begin this month and take a year to complete. The study will develop traffic models to determine the best use of improved connections between the two highways, assess the environment of both areas and analyze any alternatives.

A map provided by the agencies showed the two new connections could shift about 20,000 to 25,000 vehicles per day from Interstate 81 to the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

About 70,000 vehicles per day travel on I-81 between the Lackawanna-Luzerne County line and the Central Scranton Expressway. In contrast, about 10,000 vehicles travel between the Wyoming Valley and Clarks Summit exits of the turnpike every day, according to Turnpike Commission spokeswoman Mimi Doyle.

Seeking to ease congestion, PennDOT previously announced a $174 million project to add a third lane on a six-mile stretch of I-81 between the Lackawanna-Luzerne counties line and the Central Scranton Expressway. That project could start in five years at the earliest.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 18, 2014, 09:31:06 AM
Given that one can connect to I-81 from (one direct, one indirect via PA 315) I-476 twice and w/I-81 not being a toll road; it's no wonder that the traffic counts are significantly higher for I-81.  Act 44 or no Act 44; the PTC might want to rationalize their tolls along this stretch of I-476.  While the car toll rates aren't too bad (current car cash rate $2.30, EZPass rate $1.38 From Exit 115 northward); the higher truck rates are enough to induce a fair share of shunpiking.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on June 18, 2014, 12:06:04 PM
Seems to me that if they want to accomplish this, all they need to do is establish a direct southern connection and leave Clarks Summit as it is.

I did this in reverse the last time I was on I-81 northbound in the area. Traffic was severely backed up and moving slowly, so I bailed at PA 315 and used 476, since I planned to use US 11 north of Clarks Summit anyway. I don't know what toll I paid for use of 476, since I have an E-ZPass, but to me it was worth it to get out of the slowdown. There was very little traffic on 476 but I did see a PA state trooper running radar in the vicinity where 81 and 476 cross.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 18, 2014, 12:25:36 PM
I did this in reverse the last time I was on I-81 northbound in the area. Traffic was severely backed up and moving slowly, so I bailed at PA 315 and used 476, since I planned to use US 11 north of Clarks Summit anyway. I don't know what toll I paid for use of 476, since I have an E-ZPass, but to me it was worth it to get out of the slowdown. There was very little traffic on 476 but I did see a PA state trooper running radar in the vicinity where 81 and 476 cross.
As I mentioned earlier, the current & previous passenger vehicle (Class 1) tolls (especially at the EZPass rates) aren't too exhorbitant in this area; it's the truck tolls (Class 9 EZPass rate from Exit 115 to Clarks Summit is over $52) that's the issue.

I'd be curious to know what percentage of traffic along I-81 & 476 in this area consists of trucks?  My guess is that I-81 has a much higher percentage of truck traffic than I-476 in this area; the reason, no doubt, is due to the toll rates.

2014 PA Turnpike Toll Rates (Cash & EZPass) (http://www.paturnpike.com/toll/images/pdfs/tolls_2014/2014_Toll_Book_Combined.pdf)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 06, 2014, 09:21:15 PM
I was traveling east on the Turnpike today between Blue Mountain and Carlisle.  The current widening project has entered stage 2 for eastbound traffic (i.e. traffic has been moved over to the newly widened road section).  I almost did a double take when we started to travel on concrete pavement instead of asphalt.  I thought maybe the road would be paved when the center portion was constructed, but the concrete had grooves to channel water, making me think the Turnpike may have done its first project using concrete pavement as the riding surface.

Also, the Turnpike has done a true "crossover" between Donegal and Somerset, where both sides are sharing the old eastbound lanes and the entire westbound side has been dug up down to the dirt (instead of just part of the road at a time).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 06, 2014, 10:39:16 PM
Oddly, the PTC website makes no mention of work between Donegal and Somerset.  Is it a full reconstruction?  Widening?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 06, 2014, 11:00:03 PM
Oddly, the PTC website makes no mention of work between Donegal and Somerset.  Is it a full reconstruction?  Widening?

I noticed that too.  It is definitely a full reconstruction and widening (per the "Your Tolls At Work" signs).  The project is on the "monthly schedule" though.

http://www.paturnpike.com/improve/conschedule.aspx (http://www.paturnpike.com/improve/conschedule.aspx)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 07, 2014, 02:25:27 PM
Oddly, the PTC website makes no mention of work between Donegal and Somerset.  Is it a full reconstruction?  Widening?
I noticed that too.  It is definitely a full reconstruction and widening (per the "Your Tolls At Work" signs).  The project is on the "monthly schedule" though.
http://www.paturnpike.com/improve/conschedule.aspx (http://www.paturnpike.com/improve/conschedule.aspx)

I also noticed that.  Hadn't seen it on their "Capital Projects" page, so I wasn't expecting it at all.   It's only limited to the Laurel Hill tunnel Bypass section.  They were starting to take down the falling rock fence on my way down to the beach, and it was mostly gone on the way back.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 07, 2014, 09:14:37 PM
IIRC this section had been 5 lanes with the 3 lane part being whatever side was Uphill to the summit.  Does it look like it is going to 6 lanes, maybe 7?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 08, 2014, 03:25:18 PM
IIRC this section had been 5 lanes with the 3 lane part being whatever side was Uphill to the summit.  Does it look like it is going to 6 lanes, maybe 7?

It's still too early to tell from the current work progress... but I'd be willing to bet that it will be widened to 6 lanes (I wouldn't bet on 7 lanes)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: TheOneKEA on July 13, 2014, 08:15:03 AM
I was traveling east on the Turnpike today between Blue Mountain and Carlisle.  The current widening project has entered stage 2 for eastbound traffic (i.e. traffic has been moved over to the newly widened road section).  I almost did a double take when we started to travel on concrete pavement instead of asphalt.  I thought maybe the road would be paved when the center portion was constructed, but the concrete had grooves to channel water, making me think the Turnpike may have done its first project using concrete pavement as the riding surface.

It's definitely a riding surface, since I saw several drain grilles set into the edge of the concrete under the guardrail.

I was pleased to discover that the PTC contractor that laid the concrete actually did a decent job. It was very smooth and even and the noise sounded just right.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 13, 2014, 10:40:14 PM
Wonde

It's definitely a riding surface, since I saw several drain grilles set into the edge of the concrete under the guardrail.

I was pleased to discover that the PTC contractor that laid the concrete actually did a decent job. It was very smooth and even and the noise sounded just right.

Wonder why the change from asphalt, especially because the nearby sections are not concrete.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 14, 2014, 01:05:30 PM
En route to/from Carlisle this past Saturday, I noticed some recently-erected curve warning & speed advisory signs along the way.  The ones located east of Lebannon-Lancaster (Exit 266/PA 72) had 60 MPH advisory panels but the ones west of there had 65 MPH panels. 

One has to wonder if the latter 65 MPH advisories could give hint to the speed limit(s) on those particular stretches of the Turnpike increasing to 70 mph down the road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on July 14, 2014, 10:50:23 PM
Apparently work has begun between MM 124 and MM 134 (http://www.patpconstruction.com/mp124to134/map.aspx), east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. They've replaced some overpasses already, and they're going to widen this segment from four lanes to six with full 12' shoulders on the insides and outsides. I'm betting the new Allegheny Mountain Tunnel will be six lanes when its built too.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 15, 2014, 12:12:35 AM
I was traveling east on the Turnpike today between Blue Mountain and Carlisle.  The current widening project has entered stage 2 for eastbound traffic (i.e. traffic has been moved over to the newly widened road section).  I almost did a double take when we started to travel on concrete pavement instead of asphalt.  I thought maybe the road would be paved when the center portion was constructed, but the concrete had grooves to channel water, making me think the Turnpike may have done its first project using concrete pavement as the riding surface.

Also, the Turnpike has done a true "crossover" between Donegal and Somerset, where both sides are sharing the old eastbound lanes and the entire westbound side has been dug up down to the dirt (instead of just part of the road at a time).

Is this part of the MP 206-210 project or the 220-226 project?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 15, 2014, 12:15:14 AM
Apparently work has begun between MM 124 and MM 134 (http://www.patpconstruction.com/mp124to134/map.aspx), east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. They've replaced some overpasses already, and they're going to widen this segment from four lanes to six with full 12' shoulders on the insides and outsides. I'm betting the new Allegheny Mountain Tunnel will be six lanes when its built too.

If the tunnel replacement is to be 6 lanes, I would almost expect them to go with a non-tunnel cut.  Has the stretch between Summerset and the tunnel been rebuilt already?  There have been so many disjointed projects I have lost track.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: yakra on July 15, 2014, 12:36:50 AM
Looks like some curves were straightened out between the tunnel and New Baltimore. 2005 imagery on HistoricAerials shows EB traffic on the new roadway and WB traffic on the old. Velly interestink.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on July 15, 2014, 07:34:58 AM
Looks like some curves were straightened out between the tunnel and New Baltimore. 2005 imagery on HistoricAerials shows EB traffic on the new roadway and WB traffic on the old. Velly interestink.

They were. Several westbound curves where that carriageway split off and took a less-direct route were eliminated. The carriageways now remain together.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 15, 2014, 02:16:44 PM
Apparently work has begun between MM 124 and MM 134 (http://www.patpconstruction.com/mp124to134/map.aspx), east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. They've replaced some overpasses already, and they're going to widen this segment from four lanes to six with full 12' shoulders on the insides and outsides. I'm betting the new Allegheny Mountain Tunnel will be six lanes when its built too.

If the tunnel replacement is to be 6 lanes, I would almost expect them to go with a non-tunnel cut.  Has the stretch between Summerset and the tunnel been rebuilt already?  There have been so many disjointed projects I have lost track.

Yeah... Time is mostly a blur, but I think the section from about the Somerset interchange to the tunnels has been done for possibly a decade now... before they made widening to 6-lanes a default part of the complete reconstructions.

If I were a betting man, I would also bet that the PTC ends up selecting a non-tunnel alternative.  There are groups that seem to be against it, but I think it's what the PTC really wants to do.

As to MM 124 and MM 134, in early June they had cleared most of the trees on the hillside where they're apparently doing "New Baltimore Slope Remediation".  I'm wondering if they're gonna cut into it to smooth out the curve there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 15, 2014, 02:32:11 PM
Looks like some curves were straightened out between the tunnel and New Baltimore. 2005 imagery on HistoricAerials shows EB traffic on the new roadway and WB traffic on the old. Velly interestink.

They were. Several westbound curves where that carriageway split off and took a less-direct route were eliminated. The carriageways now remain together.

The old alignment of the Turnpike between the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel and New Baltimore was a narrow and twisting affair as recently as the mid-1980's - for both directions.  The descent eastbound was especially fun to drive.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on July 15, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
Apparently work has begun between MM 124 and MM 134 (http://www.patpconstruction.com/mp124to134/map.aspx), east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. They've replaced some overpasses already, and they're going to widen this segment from four lanes to six with full 12' shoulders on the insides and outsides. I'm betting the new Allegheny Mountain Tunnel will be six lanes when its built too.

If the tunnel replacement is to be 6 lanes, I would almost expect them to go with a non-tunnel cut.  Has the stretch between Summerset and the tunnel been rebuilt already?  There have been so many disjointed projects I have lost track.

Yeah... Time is mostly a blur, but I think the section from about the Somerset interchange to the tunnels has been done for possibly a decade now... before they made widening to 6-lanes a default part of the complete reconstructions.

If I were a betting man, I would also bet that the PTC ends up selecting a non-tunnel alternative.  There are groups that seem to be against it, but I think it's what the PTC really wants to do.

As to MM 124 and MM 134, in early June they had cleared most of the trees on the hillside where they're apparently doing "New Baltimore Slope Remediation".  I'm wondering if they're gonna cut into it to smooth out the curve there.

Agree. Building a tunnel is expensive and, with well-placed explosives, a cut could be constructed pretty easily and safely. Looking at a topographic map of the area, they could take advantage of what appears to be a small stream that cut a path up the side of the mountain immediately west of the S-curve at the eastern tunnel portal. Do a little cut and fill operation and send the Turnpike through there, cutting off two sharp curves in the process. At some places, such as Tuscarora, a tunnel would make a tad more sense, as the current tunnel passes 900 feet under the summit. Allegheny is 400 below, if that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Duke87 on July 15, 2014, 09:46:40 PM
I have to ask the most important question, though:

If the Allegheny Mountain tunnels are bypassed, will we be allowed to walk/bike through them? :hmmm:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on July 15, 2014, 10:08:05 PM
If the Allegheny Mountain tunnels are bypassed, will we be allowed to walk/bike through them?

I assume not, because unlike the Rays/Sideling section, which is accessible from numerous local roads, the maps I’ve seen suggest that the Allegheny Tunnel would be accessible only from the active Turnpike mainline itself. My guess is that it would be more like Laurel Hill, which has always officially been off-limits–and I get the impression that the PTC and the PSP have been less lenient about trespassing there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 15, 2014, 10:36:05 PM
Funny, this is now 2 projects that had no forewarning via the PTC design/construction website.  I wonder what other surprises may be in store?  With this 124-134 project and a 2017 officially listed project for MM 149-155, can the gap between and by extension, the US 220/I 99 interchange be very far behind?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on July 16, 2014, 04:08:21 AM
Funny, this is now 2 projects that had no forewarning via the PTC design/construction website.  I wonder what other surprises may be in store?  With this 124-134 project and a 2017 officially listed project for MM 149-155, can the gap between and by extension, the US 220/I 99 interchange be very far behind?

I figure that design work for the segment between MM 134 and MM 149 will begin later this decade, with reconstruction beginning around 2020.

On a similar note, the Turnpike Commission is currently doing preliminary design work for the segment between MM 57 and MM 67, and the western end of that segment is about half a mile east of the I-376 interchange, which leads me to believe that they might have a reconfigured interchange planned when they start doing design work for the segment between MM 49 and MM 57.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on July 16, 2014, 08:01:40 AM
Funny, this is now 2 projects that had no forewarning via the PTC design/construction website.  I wonder what other surprises may be in store? 
In scrolling through recent DVRPC (Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission) documents, I saw reference to some more PTC projects that were new to me.
http://www.dvrpc.org/reports/14049A.pdf (http://www.dvrpc.org/reports/14049A.pdf) (page 28 of document)
In the I-276 section between Fort Washington and Willow Grove, there is discussion on how to make the Virginia Drive slip ramp a complete full movement interchange.  Also under study is if Welsh Road (PA-63) could have slip ramps built into a new bridge project over the turnpike. 
Both projects would be about 2 miles from my house, making a potential 4 turnpike interchanges within 5 miles of my house!  (Makes my personal commute considerably easier if I don't mind paying the tolls)  The downside I didn't see studied is how the mainline will handle additional traffic.  The westbound section backs up more mornings than not..
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 16, 2014, 08:49:44 AM
Personally, while the DVRPC's supposed mission is to "...foster regional cooperation in a nine-county, two state area. City, county and state representatives work together to address key issues, including transportation, land use, environmental protection and economic development", instead, it's turned into nothing more than a group where environmentalists, pedestrians and bicyclists can band together to encourage their viewpoints are accepted. 

There's no real "regional" planning going on, which results in things like the Blue Route (I-476) becoming a parking lot because points north and south of the highway (like I-95) weren't considered for expansion to deal with the extra traffic.  And with the Blue Route brought a new way for people to get to the Jersey Shore - via the single lane per direction US 322 in NJ to Rt. 55, not to mention the additional suburban sprawl that would come with the ability to access jobs from a new location  A real regional planning commission would've been saying - OK, we know 476 needs to be built, but we're going to have to work with NJDOT regarding upgrading 322.  Instead, the regional planning commission acts as if PA & NJ are on different planets, with no interconnectivity whatsoever.

Or take the forever-to-get-built 95/PA Turnpike connection - a regional planning commission should be busting balls to get the state and agency to move faster on that. Instead, the PA Turnpike spends millions on projects with questionable benefits while pushing back projects like this interchange which will improve traffic flow, especially in that area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 09:21:46 AM
Or take the forever-to-get-built 95/PA Turnpike connection - a regional planning commission should be busting balls to get the state and agency to move faster on that. Instead, the PA Turnpike spends millions on projects with questionable benefits while pushing back projects like this interchange which will improve traffic flow, especially in that area.

Metropolitan Planning Organizations like DVRPC do not usually have any authority to tell state agencies like PennDOT and PTC to speed-up construction of projects once they are in the short-range and long-range plans for funding. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 16, 2014, 09:23:55 AM
There's no real "regional" planning going on, which results in things like the Blue Route (I-476) becoming a parking lot because points north and south of the highway (like I-95) weren't considered for expansion to deal with the extra traffic.  And with the Blue Route brought a new way for people to get to the Jersey Shore - via the single lane per direction US 322 in NJ to Rt. 55, not to mention the additional suburban sprawl that would come with the ability to access jobs from a new location  A real regional planning commission would've been saying - OK, we know 476 needs to be built, but we're going to have to work with NJDOT regarding upgrading 322.  Instead, the regional planning commission acts as if PA & NJ are on different planets, with no interconnectivity whatsoever.
One has to wonder if an earlier but never executed plan to have I-476 and US 322 cross & interchange w/I-95 at the same location was ever considered when the Blue Route & Commodore Barry Bridge was only sketches circa the 1960s.  Such an alignement would've eliminated those particular bottlenecks along I-95.  Although I have to wonder whether PennDOT was either on crack or PCP when they designed the through-I-95 ramps at I-476 to be only 4 lanes total rather than 6 circa the early 70s.

The other issue w/I-476, at least south of PA 3, is that it was scaled down from its original 6-lane configuration (although there is room to place 2-additional lanes in the middle of the corridor) to placate the money-rich NIMBYs in Swarthmore.  Never mind the fact that these NIMBYs probably use the road to get to/from KOP, Plymouth Meeting, Lehigh Valley, Poconos etc.; can we say hypocrites?

On your side of the river, it was probably a combination of NIMBY & environmental activists that stalled any freeway upgrades/bypass for US 322 indefinitely.

The DVRPC has not yet mastered to to overcome NIMBYs who will block any transportation project (even transit-themed ones - there was some serious NIMBY whining over NJTransit's River Line when it was being proposed & Built) they possibly can.  Plus, as CP mentioned, they don't have the authority to tell agencies to speed up construction projects.

Or take the forever-to-get-built 95/PA Turnpike connection - a regional planning commission should be busting balls to get the state and agency to move faster on that. Instead, the PA Turnpike spends millions on projects with questionable benefits while pushing back projects like this interchange which will improve traffic flow, especially in that area.
I hear you on that one; but see CP's reply as towards why such can't legally happen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 16, 2014, 10:46:55 AM
When funding is approved, there is a schedule that the projects adhere to regarding funding.  If the schedule calls for a project to be worked on from 2015-2017, the funds are allocated in a manner to adhere to that schedule. 

Whenever there is a change in funding for a project - say, an agency wants to push back a project because more money is required on another project, they need to go thru the DVRPC for approval.

Generally, the DVRPC simply rubberstamps their approval of these funding requests.  But the DVRPC definitely has the authority to say "No, you can't delay Project 10355.  Project 10355 has too many benefits to the area, so we will not permit you to delay the project.  You can find other projects which have less of an impact to the overall region".  But instead, the DVRPC says "All in Favor?  Yea.  Opposed?  (no one).  Approved".

Take a look under Action Item #2 here is this month's TIP actions: http://www.dvrpc.org/ASP/committee/agenda.aspx?p=6107  . In this month's case, there are 2 issues, both pertaining to NJ: One relates to a project that's been pushed ahead of it's original schedule and the other pertains to utilzing funds from projects that appear to have been delayed.  The supporting documents should state how the money will be found.  That's what the purpose of the DVRPC is - to make sure those projects are adhering to a schedule that works for the benefit of the region.  As it is, the winning bid for Contract #2 of the 295/76/42 project came in $40 million under budget, so there's some money NJDOT can play with at this point.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 16, 2014, 02:42:03 PM
On a similar note, the Turnpike Commission is currently doing preliminary design work for the segment between MM 57 and MM 67, and the western end of that segment is about half a mile east of the I-376 interchange, which leads me to believe that they might have a reconfigured interchange planned when they start doing design work for the segment between MM 49 and MM 57.

It was mentioned, most likely in this thread, that the PTC has a plan for a reconfigured Monroeville ("Pittsburgh") interchange... I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being it's own project, and not directly related to any adjacent widening.  (Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if it was associated with an I-376 to PA-28 widening too)

My guess is that it would be more like Laurel Hill, which has always officially been off-limits–and I get the impression that the PTC and the PSP have been less lenient about trespassing there.

It's now been a dozen years, but back in 2000 I made two trips to the Laurel Hill tunnel - the second with about 8 or 9 people, where we traversed the whole tunnel (climbing over the salt piles in the western end was "fun") and back.  Thankfully, we didn't encounter any law enforcement.  (It would have made for an especially "bad trip" for many of us).  We parked at the Laurel Hill trail parking lot at PA-31, camped out along the trail (at a site between PA-31 and the TPK), and hiked there the next day.  Good times.


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 16, 2014, 05:30:44 PM
I have read from several sources that the 28 to 376 project will be in 2 parts due tot he expense and complexity of replacing a long bridge near the halfway point.  I can see the long bridge going with the northern half and the 376 interchange going with the southern half.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 17, 2014, 10:30:46 AM
In scrolling through recent DVRPC (Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission) documents, I saw reference to some more PTC projects that were new to me.
http://www.dvrpc.org/reports/14049A.pdf (http://www.dvrpc.org/reports/14049A.pdf) (page 28 of document)
In the I-276 section between Fort Washington and Willow Grove, there is discussion on how to make the Virginia Drive slip ramp a complete full movement interchange.  Also under study is if Welsh Road (PA-63) could have slip ramps built into a new bridge project over the turnpike. 
Both projects would be about 2 miles from my house, making a potential 4 turnpike interchanges within 5 miles of my house!  (Makes my personal commute considerably easier if I don't mind paying the tolls)  The downside I didn't see studied is how the mainline will handle additional traffic.  The westbound section backs up more mornings than not..

For 10 years I commuted via the Turnpike (first between Fort Washington and Valley Forge, later between US 1 and Valley Forge) when I worked for PennDOT District 6. The need for adding access points to the Turnpike in the Philadelphia metro area was a perennial topic of discussion. The general consensus (informally at PennDOT) was that adding entry and exit points may result in a slight increase in ADT due to induced use, but spreading that traffic over a greater number of access points would result in a dramatic reduction in congestion at the toll plazas.

Myself, I think that that there are far to few access points on the Turnpike in the Philadelphia area. I realize that this is because the road was originally designed as a long-distance facility, not a commuter facility. But users are currently crammed into a ridiculously few number of access points. Constructability and cost issues aside, from an operational standpoint there should be twice the current number.

With the Turnpike's move to AET happening in a few years, constructability and cost will become a lot more flexible and manageable; I think we'll see various combinations of slip ramps in a variety of locations proposed–some of which will actually get built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2014, 12:41:32 PM
Myself, I think that that there are far to few access points on the Turnpike in the Philadelphia area. I realize that this is because the road was originally designed as a long-distance facility, not a commuter facility. But users are currently crammed into a ridiculously few number of access points. Constructability and cost issues aside, from an operational standpoint there should be twice the current number.

With the Turnpike's move to AET happening in a few years, constructability and cost will become a lot more flexible and manageable; I think we'll see various combinations of slip ramps in a variety of locations proposed–some of which will actually get built.
A couple things to consider:

1.  During most of the PA Turnpike's lifespan, electronic tolling (I'm primarily referring to EZ-Pass) did not exist so building new interchanges in the toll-ticket road like the Turnpike back then generally required a lot more land aquistition (for a dual-trumpet set-up & connector road for the toll plaza) than a conventional SPUI/diamond/cloverleaf interchange on either a toll-barrier road like the GSP & one-time CT Turnpike or a non-tolled highway.

2.  At one time, there were plans for a 10-Mile Loop Expressway (http://www.phillyroads.com/roads/ten-mile-loop/) (it would ran from I-95 at Exit 32 to I-76 at Exit 332) that would've likely served as a local free highway alternative to I-276 just like I-295 in NJ is to the parallel the southern section of the NJTP.  Sadly, that proposed highway fell victim to the great future highway plan purge that hit Greater Philadelphia circa 1977.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 17, 2014, 10:04:19 PM
En route to/from Carlisle this past Saturday, I noticed some recently-erected curve warning & speed advisory signs along the way.  The ones located east of Lebannon-Lancaster (Exit 266/PA 72) had 60 MPH advisory panels but the ones west of there had 65 MPH panels. 

One has to wonder if the latter 65 MPH advisories could give hint to the speed limit(s) on those particular stretches of the Turnpike increasing to 70 mph down the road.

A 60 MPH advisory speed?  Has to be a first in the state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 17, 2014, 10:04:35 PM
With the Turnpike's move to AET happening in a few years, constructability and cost will become a lot more flexible and manageable; I think we'll see various combinations of slip ramps in a variety of locations proposed–some of which will actually get built.
Why just slip ramps?  Full interchanges are more useful.  With a slip ramp, once you get off, you have to drive miles out of your way to get back on.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 17, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
I was traveling east on the Turnpike today between Blue Mountain and Carlisle.  The current widening project has entered stage 2 for eastbound traffic (i.e. traffic has been moved over to the newly widened road section).  I almost did a double take when we started to travel on concrete pavement instead of asphalt.  I thought maybe the road would be paved when the center portion was constructed, but the concrete had grooves to channel water, making me think the Turnpike may have done its first project using concrete pavement as the riding surface.

Also, the Turnpike has done a true "crossover" between Donegal and Somerset, where both sides are sharing the old eastbound lanes and the entire westbound side has been dug up down to the dirt (instead of just part of the road at a time).

Is this part of the MP 206-210 project or the 220-226 project?

MP 206-210
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 18, 2014, 02:33:52 PM
With the Turnpike's move to AET happening in a few years, constructability and cost will become a lot more flexible and manageable; I think we'll see various combinations of slip ramps in a variety of locations proposed–some of which will actually get built.
Why just slip ramps?  Full interchanges are more useful.  With a slip ramp, once you get off, you have to drive miles out of your way to get back on.

Because there is intense development throughout the area that the PA Turnpike traverses through the Phila metro area. A full interchange in one spot will always be tough to get approved by all concerned stakeholders. Slip ramps can be salted all along the alignment. Locate them in pairs and convenience isn't sacrificed that much.

The Virginia Drive and Bensalem slip ramps are two examples. These do provide immediate re-entry right at the point of exit. What they don't allow is easy re-entry in the opposite direction. A different type of slip ramp is the onramp from a shopping center/office park directly into the toll plaza at US 1. This is an onramp only, but it does provide access to both the east- and west-bound sides.

With all that being said, however, the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is looking to build additional full interchanges in this area. A good source of info and maps for proposed access points within Montgomery County can be found here (http://www.montcopa.org/index.aspx?NID=1553) and here (http://www.montcopa.org/index.aspx?NID=1758).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 18, 2014, 03:03:06 PM
With all that being said, however, the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is looking to build additional full interchanges in this area. A good source of info and maps for proposed access points within Montgomery County can be found here (http://www.montcopa.org/index.aspx?NID=1553) and here (http://www.montcopa.org/index.aspx?NID=1758).
Interesting stuff.

Personally, the current and altered Valley Forge interchange is the one I have issue with the most because it still has through I-76 westbound traffic funneling down into a single-lane cloverleaf ramp.  IMHO, this interchange (without the added connections) should be either reconfigured to either a mirrored trumpet (cloverleaf ramp would be for the I-276 West to I-76 East movements) interchange or a full-blown directional interchange w/fly-over ramps.

If I had it my way (and I know this is fantasy/fiction but I'll throw it out there) I would move the eastern toll barrier in Bristol to just west of the *Morgantown (I-176) interchange and make the East-West Turnpike east of there toll-free and move the Mid-County Plaza a mile or two north of its current location along the NE Extension (I-476).

*Such a move would encourage more Reading-bound traffic from the Greater Philly area to utilize I-76 to I-176 vs. US 422.

If that stretch of Turnpike (I-76/276) were toll free; construction costs for additional interchanges would be reduced because toll-gantry/plaza related structures & utilities would no longer be needed/required.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 18, 2014, 04:55:23 PM
Personally, the current and altered Valley Forge interchange is the one I have issue with the most because it still has through I-76 westbound traffic funneling down into a single-lane cloverleaf ramp.  IMHO, this interchange (without the added connections) should be either reconfigured to either a mirrored trumpet (cloverleaf ramp would be for the I-276 West to I-76 East movements) interchange or a full-blown directional interchange w/fly-over ramps.

That ramp is currently striped for two lanes narrowing to one before it becomes the westbound acceleration lane. (If you look at Google or Bing maps, you can see the two lanes become one lane under the bridge carrying the main line.) When the Turnpike is widened from two to three lanes (directionally) from Valley Forge to Great Valley (PA 29), this ramp will be restriped to two lanes along its entire length. The bridge carrying the main line was engineered for three through lanes, the two-lane onramp, and a shoulder. And the concrete for the full two-lane onramp is already in place.

From my work at PennDOT, I know that the PTC intends to carry westbound I-76 through the interchange with two lanes when the widening to the west is accomplished. I don't know what the merge point (which will be slightly west of the current end of the three-through-lane configuration) will look like, however, but I-76 will still be on a loop ramp.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 18, 2014, 10:16:34 PM
Pa. Turnpike to Raise Speed Limit to 70 mph on Stretch of Toll Highway Next Week (http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2014/20140718174518.htm)

This will be between Exits #201 (Blue Mountain) and #298 (Morgantown).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2014, 10:27:04 PM
So the 100 mile stretch of highway will go 97 miles.  Interesting.  And how many construction zones are in this area, wiping out the higher limit?

In other trivia...who wants to take a guess how many days the 100 day war lasted...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 18, 2014, 10:34:20 PM
So the 100 mile stretch of highway will go 97 miles.  Interesting.  And how many construction zones are in this area, wiping out the higher limit?

Well, they might post the 70 all the way to Blue Mountain Tunnel on the West side of Exit #201.  That would get them another 2.1 miles, and practically to 100 miles.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 20, 2014, 02:41:52 AM
Speed limit discussion is here: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10754.0
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 13, 2014, 02:04:52 AM
Philly.com: Work to begin on connecting Pa. Turnpike and I-95 (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140813_Work_to_begin_on_connecting_Pa__Turnpike_and_I-95.html)

Quote
Construction is to start late next month or in early October on the long-awaited direct connection between Interstate 95 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike, after the award of a $142.9 million contract to a Bucks County firm.

Quote
PKF-Mark III Inc., of Newtown, won the contract from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to build the first section of the $420 million Stage 1 of the new interchange that will finally provide an unbroken I-95 between Maine and Florida.

Quote
For decades, I-95 has been incomplete in New Jersey near Trenton.

Quote
The $142.9 million will pay for widening and reconstructing about four miles of the turnpike in Bristol Township, where the connection with I-95 will be built. It will also pay for building three new turnpike bridges and installing the piers for the flyover ramps for the connection.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on August 13, 2014, 09:15:31 PM
IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME !! I've been reading for the last 10 years that this interchange was going to happen, and every time I drive thru that area, I note with disgust that ground has not yet been broken.

The NJ Turnpike has interchanges with toll-free interstates, as does the New York Thruway. Apparently funded by those toll authorities in those states. Only the friggin' Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission wouldn't spend the money to build it back in 1969.

It should never have taken this many years!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 13, 2014, 09:25:15 PM
IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME !! I've been reading for the last 10 years that this interchange was going to happen, and every time I drive thru that area, I note with disgust that ground has not yet been broken.

The NJ Turnpike has interchanges with toll-free interstates, as does the New York Thruway. Apparently funded by those toll authorities in those states. Only the friggin' Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission wouldn't spend the money to build it back in the 1970's.

It should never have taken this many years!

They still have plenty more. Breezewood, I-78, I-80, I-81, US 219, US 222, the Bud Shuster Porkway... Knowing them, they'll never complete I-70.

It's not like New York doesn't have its share of non-interchanges. Look at how long it took them to connect the Thruway to I-84 and, for much of the time, both were run by NYSTA. It still fails to connect to NY 23, NY 85, and US 209, all of which are at least semi-limited-access.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Nature Boy on August 13, 2014, 09:30:46 PM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 13, 2014, 09:33:42 PM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

I avoid it like the plague. Never used that exit and will once and only once to say I did it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Nature Boy on August 13, 2014, 09:49:04 PM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

I avoid it like the plague. Never used that exit and will once and only once to say I did it.

If you go through at night, it's quite the spectacle. In fact, I recommend doing so at night.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Duke87 on August 14, 2014, 12:41:33 AM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

I've driven through a few times making various movements but I have not and will not patronize any of the businesses there.

Which is a sound decision even if you don't feel like boycotting it for ideological reasons - the gas there is more expensive than at the next town along US 30 in either direction, presumably the same is true of the other services.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on August 14, 2014, 01:02:27 AM
Sure, I'm always happy to stop at Breezewood; I got no problem with it, just as I have no issue with I-99 or with sequential exit numbering. And that's saying something, because I have a pretty low tolerance for anything the main stream is okay with.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 14, 2014, 06:16:42 AM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

"The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants. "

And then you ask if anyone actually stops there?  Your own statement says that a LOT of people stop there.  Otherwise, all those gas stations and restaurants wouldn't be there!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Nature Boy on August 14, 2014, 07:25:34 AM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

"The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants. "

And then you ask if anyone actually stops there?  Your own statement says that a LOT of people stop there.  Otherwise, all those gas stations and restaurants wouldn't be there!

Out of the millions of cars who are forced into it, you can build an economy around the relatively few who actually stop. I've just never met or heard of one of those people.

I bet 99% of cars that go through there don't stop, I wonder who in the hell that 1% is. :P
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on August 14, 2014, 07:48:21 AM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

When I was in my teens, our Boy Scout troop always stopped at the McDonald's in Breezewood en route to Seven Springs for our annual ski trip. The idea was simply to regroup and ensure no vehicles had been lost along the way (especially given the inevitable traffic leaving DC coupled with the long stretches of turnpike with no exits between Breezewood and Somerset, the latter being where we exited for Seven Springs). Since I was not old enough to drive for most of those years–and, even if I had been, the troop's liability policy prohibited anyone under 18 from driving with other Scouts in the car–I had no say in the matter.

Can't say I've stopped at Breezewood since then, and I usually try to avoid it if we're headed that way, but if I urgently needed gas or urgently had to take a crap, I'd stop.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 14, 2014, 08:50:53 AM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

"The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants. "

And then you ask if anyone actually stops there?  Your own statement says that a LOT of people stop there.  Otherwise, all those gas stations and restaurants wouldn't be there!

Out of the millions of cars who are forced into it, you can build an economy around the relatively few who actually stop. I've just never met or heard of one of those people.

I bet 99% of cars that go through there don't stop, I wonder who in the hell that 1% is. :P

That information is quite easy to find, actually.

http://www.paturnpike.com/TrafficReports/FXPlor/Reports-Main/2013%20Reports/2013_INTERCHANGE_AADT_Report.pdf

In regards to traffic entering and exiting the Turnpike in Breezewood, the AADT is about 17,000 vehicles for the year.  In August, the ADT was 22,000. 

(Since this doesn't include traffic not entering/exiting the Turnpike, you can add on some more to that.  For the heck of it, let's just double the numbers, so the average ADT is about 35,000.)

1% of that would be 350 people per day.  And 350 people per day couldn't justify 10 or so hotels, numerous gas stations, restaurants, etc.

Title: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Pete from Boston on August 14, 2014, 09:07:39 AM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

"The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants. "

And then you ask if anyone actually stops there?  Your own statement says that a LOT of people stop there.  Otherwise, all those gas stations and restaurants wouldn't be there!

Out of the millions of cars who are forced into it, you can build an economy around the relatively few who actually stop. I've just never met or heard of one of those people.

I bet 99% of cars that go through there don't stop, I wonder who in the hell that 1% is. :P

I stop there everytime I pass by.  The Gateway Travel Plaza has a neat collection of historical photos that really put perspective on the place going back to way before I-70.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 14, 2014, 09:22:57 AM
I've only been through there once, when clinching I-70, and I had thought I had made a wrong turn coming off the Turnpike before realizing this was the legendary Breezewood.  I continued on the signed I-70 without stopping.

I don't have much intention of going that way again.  it's a pretty strange 90 degree jog on I-70 that I don't foresee factoring into any high-speed plan I have; so if I were in the area again, I'd figure there are plenty of non-freeways to explore.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on August 14, 2014, 10:09:02 AM
I've been through Breezewood a handful of times. First time, I just drove through to say I'd been there (was en route to Jeff K's Pittsburgh national meet and drove out I-68 and back west on I-70). I think I stopped for gas and a pee break at one of the gas stations on the south side of US 30 as I made the transition from westbound 70 to the turnpike.

I actually spent a couple of nights there four years ago. I was in the middle of an extended trip to attend the infamous SEPA meet where the venue mysteriously lost our room reservation. I'd been in Delaware and New Jersey, clinching routes and counties, and intended to go west on I-70 into Ohio and Indiana after the meet, so Breezewood made a logical place for me to stay since I was clinching I-70 in Maryland. I spent Friday night in Breezewood, then drove east to the meet, then drove back to Breezewood for Saturday night before heading west on I-70 Sunday morning.

Last time I was through Breezewood, I did not stop. I was on my way to Steve A's US 202 meet and had driven north on a combination of Maryland and Pennsylvania state routes that put me on US 30 a bit west of Bedford. I opted to stay on US 30 instead of getting on the turnpike at Bedford, so I followed it all the way to Breezewood before I entered the turnpike.

I'm not sure that the commercial strips on old US 220 along the connection from I-99 to the turnpike, or the one on US 11 between I-81 and the turnpike, are any different than Breezewood. They merely take advantage of the highway setup as it exists.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on August 14, 2014, 03:59:11 PM
...no one noticed the following quote in the article:  "The current I-95 north of the connection will be redesignated as I-395 or I-195, project manager Jeff Davis said."

Everything I've seen on the project website states extension of I-195 from NJ. 

I-395?  Hmmm...re-start debate...NOW.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 14, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

Growing up, stopping at the McDonalds for breakfast on the way to the beach was practically a tradition.  In the past 15 years or so I'd say it's about 50/50 if I (or my peeps) will stop.   Though I sometimes will just take I-68 instead. My friend and I stopped in B-wood this year, cause he wanted to get some Starbucks, even though it was on the wrong side of 30.

As to the first question, I don't think it would hurt "Breezewood's economy" (note: Breezewood isn't really an incorporated municipality of any kind, just a PA "Village") anywhere near as much as those businesses probably fear if they just added a simple 2 ramps so traffic could avoid it. 
Once you pass Hagerstown, there isn't really any place with anywhere near the choice of Breezewood till, well, Breezewood.  The EB Midway Service plaza might see a bump in business, but people needing/wanting services will still utilize Breezewood, and probably easier so, since traffic with no desire to stop there won't be clogging shit up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Nature Boy on August 14, 2014, 04:40:33 PM
Interesting. More people stop there than I thought. When I travel, I usually prefer to stop for gas/food in rural areas or service plazas so I can avoid surface street traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on August 14, 2014, 05:16:11 PM
....

As to the first question, I don't think it would hurt "Breezewood's economy" (note: Breezewood isn't really an incorporated municipality of any kind, just a PA "Village") anywhere near as much as those businesses probably fear if they just added a simple 2 ramps so traffic could avoid it. 

....

Breezewood does have a mayor, though. He lives up on top of the hill just southwest of the I-70 traffic light and his name is McCheese.  :bigass:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 14, 2014, 05:58:06 PM
I wonder what would happen to Breezewood's economy if they ever actually filled the gap. The whole town seems built around people stopping off and using their gas stations and eating at their restaurants.

I've never stopped there but does anyone ever actually stop in Breezewood?

As much as I hate the nonsensical disconnection of I-70 in Breezewood and would love to see a direct connection, I think the commercial strip on US 30 there would exist regardless. People will always need to eat, sleep, fuel their vehicles, and use the restroom, and the businesses in Breezewood are just fulfilling a demand that already exists. Other than roadgeeks visiting the Abandoned Turnpike, nobody’s spontaneously eating a meal or staying overnight just because Breezewood is there. They would have eaten at the next service plaza or slept in Bedford, Somerset, or wherever.

I think it’s also worth noting that the two largest businesses in Breezewood are the Gateway TA and Pilot All-American–both truck stops. And with FMCSA hours of service regs being what they are, combined with the high cost of fuel and “if the wheels aren’t turning, I’m not earning”  realities facing owner-operators, I’ll go out on a limb and say that truckers’ off-road time is carefully considered.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 14, 2014, 05:59:54 PM
IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME !! I've been reading for the last 10 years that this interchange was going to happen, and every time I drive thru that area, I note with disgust that ground has not yet been broken.

The NJ Turnpike has interchanges with toll-free interstates, as does the New York Thruway. Apparently funded by those toll authorities in those states. Only the friggin' Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission wouldn't spend the money to build it back in the 1970's.

It should never have taken this many years!

They still have plenty more. Breezewood, I-78, I-80, I-81, US 219, US 222, the Bud Shuster Porkway... Knowing them, they'll never complete I-70.

It's not like New York doesn't have its share of non-interchanges. Look at how long it took them to connect the Thruway to I-84 and, for much of the time, both were run by NYSTA. It still fails to connect to NY 23, NY 85, and US 209, all of which are at least semi-limited-access.
I-84 was the oddball that one wonders about.  NY 23 isn't really a freeway, I belive NY 85 was intended to connect with unbuilt I-87 (and it may not be considered a freeway at at the overpass, though I consider it a super-2 through Slingerlands), and US 209 is caught up in the I-587 mess.

It's worth noting that the Thruway was constructed late enough that most interchanges with interstates connected with them from the get-go.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on August 14, 2014, 06:47:52 PM
I've only been through there once, when clinching I-70, and I had thought I had made a wrong turn coming off the Turnpike before realizing this was the legendary Breezewood.  I continued on the signed I-70 without stopping.

I don't have much intention of going that way again.  it's a pretty strange 90 degree jog on I-70 that I don't foresee factoring into any high-speed plan I have; so if I were in the area again, I'd figure there are plenty of non-freeways to explore.
You would go that way to check out the abandoned Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 14, 2014, 07:09:02 PM
You would go that way to check out the abandoned Turnpike.

Of the four times I've been through Breezewood, three was for visiting the abandoned section between the Ray's Hill and Sidling Hill tunnels.

One of the things I learned by looking at hard data when I worked for PennDOT District 6-0 was that when an extremely congested area is bypassed, local businesses usually end up better off. When local and through traffic is combined in a congested area, potential customers stay away because it's so hard to get into and out of the area. When through traffic is separated from the local traffic, customers who would've stayed away now patronize the local businesses because it's easier to do. This is more likely the more congested an area is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Nature Boy on August 14, 2014, 07:52:03 PM
You would go that way to check out the abandoned Turnpike.

Of the four times I've been through Breezewood, three was for visiting the abandoned section between the Ray's Hill and Sidling Hill tunnels.

One of the things I learned by looking at hard data when I worked for PennDOT District 6-0 was that when an extremely congested area is bypassed, local businesses usually end up better off. When local and through traffic is combined in a congested area, potential customers stay away because it's so hard to get into and out of the area. When through traffic is separated from the local traffic, customers who would've stayed away now patronize the local businesses because it's easier to do. This is more likely the more congested an area is.

So Breezewood might actually BENEFIT from a bypass?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 14, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
You would go that way to check out the abandoned Turnpike.

Of the four times I've been through Breezewood, three was for visiting the abandoned section between the Ray's Hill and Sidling Hill tunnels.

One of the things I learned by looking at hard data when I worked for PennDOT District 6-0 was that when an extremely congested area is bypassed, local businesses usually end up better off. When local and through traffic is combined in a congested area, potential customers stay away because it's so hard to get into and out of the area. When through traffic is separated from the local traffic, customers who would've stayed away now patronize the local businesses because it's easier to do. This is more likely the more congested an area is.

So Breezewood might actually BENEFIT from a bypass?

Probably. It and Bedford are the only services easily accessible from the Turnpike between US 119 and I-81. There isn't much along I-70 between the same landmarks other than a small Maryland city near the border. Enough people want name-brand hotels, sit-down restaurants, truck stops, and/or cheap gas and fast food.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on August 14, 2014, 09:53:45 PM
Breezewood has a Sheetz. It's the only one of which I am aware that's in close proximity to the turnpike besides Bedford. If I'm hungry and driving the turnpike and I know of a Sheetz, I'll definitely get off and patronize it instead of the fast food at one of the service plazas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on August 14, 2014, 10:33:17 PM
The four times I've been through Breezewood...

1989:  Refueled at Sunoco on the way to Pittsburgh via the Turnpike and Parkway East

1995: Passed through on the way home from State College (it was in the fall on a PSU football bye week).  I'd detoured through Altoona to get my first look at the Horseshoe Curve and 3 or 4 trains rounding it, which is one reason I went through Breezewood.

1999: Passed through on the way to NE OH and the PFHOF and the R&RHOF

July 20, 2014:  Planned to cruise up and down the Breezewood stretch before heading out 30 to Bedford, then up the Barbara Feldon, er, Bud Shuster Highway to Altoona for three days of railfanning.  Unfortunately as I came down the hill on 70 (this was about 3:45 pm) I concluded from the backup that this was a bad idea, so I dove for the left lane and headed west on 30.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: LeftyJR on August 15, 2014, 01:25:20 PM
The four times I've been through Breezewood...

1989:  Refueled at Sunoco on the way to Pittsburgh via the Turnpike and Parkway East

1995: Passed through on the way home from State College (it was in the fall on a PSU football bye week).  I'd detoured through Altoona to get my first look at the Horseshoe Curve and 3 or 4 trains rounding it, which is one reason I went through Breezewood

1999: Passed through on the way to NE OH and the PFHOF and the R&RHOF

July 20, 2014:  Planned to cruise up and down the Breezewood stretch before heading out 30 to Bedford, then up the Barbara Feldon, er, Bud Shuster Highway to Altoona for three days of railfanning.  Unfortunately as I came down the hill on 70 (this was about 3:45 pm) I concluded from the backup that this was a bad idea, so I dove for the left lane and headed west on 30.

ixnay

If you are headed to Altoona/Bedford/State College, or anywhere along I-99, its always best to take US 30 west from there anyway...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on August 15, 2014, 07:21:54 PM
It's worth noting that the Thruway was constructed late enough that most interchanges with interstates connected with them from the get-go.

Er?

Not I-390, I-490, I-690, I-481, I-790, I-890, I-787, I-81, I-84, I-88, I-587, I-90/87, I-287 (Suffern)…in fact, the only ones I can think of that might have existed from the get-go are 190 and 290 (and I-287 Elmsford, by whatever number that had at the time).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 15, 2014, 07:38:26 PM
Am I over-relying on Historic Aerials?  Unfortunately I have never managed to find maps (aside from topo maps that don't differentiate between "under construction", "proposed", "was there decades ago", and "what's actually there") from this era so I have to infer based on what's in between the 1951 and 1969 images.  Even if the interstates weren't there yet, with the exceptions of I-390, I-81, I-84, I-481, and I-88, the interchanges were ready and waiting.  It's not like the PTC, where the interstates were built just close enough to not force all-new interchanges but far enough that breezewoods were used instead of just using toll money to tie them in.

Of course, this is also PA, the state that has free interstates only because they saw the FHWA as a cash cow.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on August 15, 2014, 09:01:52 PM
The four times I've been through Breezewood...

1989:  Refueled at Sunoco on the way to Pittsburgh via the Turnpike and Parkway East

1995: Passed through on the way home from State College (it was in the fall on a PSU football bye week).  I'd detoured through Altoona to get my first look at the Horseshoe Curve and 3 or 4 trains rounding it, which is one reason I went through Breezewood

1999: Passed through on the way to NE OH and the PFHOF and the R&RHOF

July 20, 2014:  Planned to cruise up and down the Breezewood stretch before heading out 30 to Bedford, then up the Barbara Feldon, er, Bud Shuster Highway to Altoona for three days of railfanning.  Unfortunately as I came down the hill on 70 (this was about 3:45 pm) I concluded from the backup that this was a bad idea, so I dove for the left lane and headed west on 30.

ixnay

If you are headed to Altoona/Bedford/State College, or anywhere along I-99, its always best to take US 30 west from there anyway...

That was my intent all along, partly because of the $2.60 toll for just 16 miles (thanks, paturnpike.com for helping me with my pre-vacation homework).  The jam of transitioners from westbound 70 to the Turnpike forced me, as I said, to drop my Breezewood cruising plans and get immediately on 30 west.  In fact I should've gotten off 70 at exit 149 and taken South Breezewood Road to 30 past the arches.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on August 16, 2014, 04:42:56 AM
I've only been through Breezewood once, and it was only when I was working on a clinch of I-70.  I did not patronize any of the businesses for numerous reasons.  First, and foremost, I did not need anything when passing through.  I also reasoned that most of the available food and fuel was overpriced.  It also seemed like a real pain in the ass to get into and back out of said businesses because of the traffic.

When I'm traveling, I tend to check gasbuddy for cheaper areas to refuel when possible.  Breezewood did not meet this criteria at the time I traveled through it.  While I'm stopped for gas I will look for food in the immediate area, as I try to minimize my stops and down time.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman on August 16, 2014, 09:17:16 AM
Been through Breezewood about half a dozen times over the past fifteen years, usually when I'm traveling from my brother's house in Greensboro to Altoona.  Sometimes I'll get on the Turnpike west to Bedford, other times I'll just take US 30 west.

However, I've never had a need to stop in Breezewood itself for either gas or food.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on August 16, 2014, 02:03:22 PM
Am I over-relying on Historic Aerials?  Unfortunately I have never managed to find maps (aside from topo maps that don't differentiate between "under construction", "proposed", "was there decades ago", and "what's actually there") from this era so I have to infer based on what's in between the 1951 and 1969 images.  Even if the interstates weren't there yet, with the exceptions of I-390, I-81, I-84, I-481, and I-88, the interchanges were ready and waiting.

I-481 and I-88 got new interchanges, but I-390 got the old US 15 interchange, I-81 got US 11's, and I-84 got–well, nothing, until pretty recently. Others, like I-890's and I-790's, always seem to have had future connections in mind, but they did originally connect only to local streets.

But yes, nothing like the way the PA Turnpike's evolved–or didn't.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 16, 2014, 06:14:25 PM
Given the Thruway's later construction than the PA Turnpike, I wouldn't be surprised if the interchanges near the interstates were specifically designed to eventually connect.  Both I-490 interchanges would have needed minimal modification and the original ramps are likely still there as part of I-490's exits.  The US 11 bypass was four lanes divided - the only reason they couldn't re-use the interchange is so that the exit to 7th North St could be fit in.  I-690's was a traffic light anyways.  I think the reverse process might have been used for I-790 (at least, I'm not sure how else to explain the original horrific design, other than "because it's Region TO").  The western I-890 interchange would have connected with NY 5S, which had I-890 placed directly on top of it, so it likely didn't need modification.  The eastern I-890 interchange is probably similar to I-490.  Given that Washington Ave Extension was built in the 50s (and hasn't seen any work since except the interchange with Fuller Rd), I think the original configuration of exit 24 before Free 90 was always supposed to be temporary.  The I-587 interchange, of course, has not been modified except to change the traffic circle to a roundabout.  The western I-287 interchange has always gone straight to the NJ line without at-grades even back when it was NJ 17 rather than I-287.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 16, 2014, 10:17:02 PM
Given the Thruway's later construction than the PA Turnpike, I wouldn't be surprised if the interchanges near the interstates were specifically designed to eventually connect.

Not sure that Newburgh was ever designed to connect, given the massive job that was undertaken there to remove the long-standing breezewood between I-87 and I-84.

And the NYSTA did a good job in getting rid of that breezewood.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 16, 2014, 10:23:57 PM
Given the Thruway's later construction than the PA Turnpike, I wouldn't be surprised if the interchanges near the interstates were specifically designed to eventually connect.

Not sure that Newburgh was ever designed to connect, given the massive job that was undertaken there to remove the long-standing breezewood between I-87 and I-84.

And the NYSTA did a good job in getting rid of that breezewood.

It's not like there was much in the way. I'm actually surprised they didn't build a trumpet on I-84 with connections to NY 300. When it was built, there was nothing between the two highways other than a pile of dirt. (http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=0.000128&lat=41.5004018996822&lon=-74.0736360385741&year=1975)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 17, 2014, 06:06:40 PM
The I-87/I-84 connection is an oddball.  I have no idea why they only recently got a direct connection.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 17, 2014, 06:19:59 PM
We should just be glad that NY and PA aren't like the Mass Pike with its freeway interchanges. Exit 4 (https://goo.gl/maps/4sXVP) is a pretty dangerous quadruple trumpet, Exit 10 (https://goo.gl/maps/sxI3J) is...odd, and Exit 15 (https://goo.gl/maps/rRTZQ) is just messed up. I won't even talk about Exit 5 (https://goo.gl/maps/f60WA), as no freeways are involved. I'd take Breezewood, I-99, or the old I-84 connection over any of these, even though all but Exit 5 provide direct connections to the adjacent freeway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DeaconG on August 17, 2014, 07:26:47 PM
^^^Exit 15-AAAAACCCCKKKK! It makes my eyes bleed!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 17, 2014, 08:28:53 PM
^^^Exit 15-AAAAACCCCKKKK! It makes my eyes bleed!

Just picture it during rush hour. I've spent more time stuck there...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PurdueBill on August 18, 2014, 01:08:24 AM
We should just be glad that NY and PA aren't like the Mass Pike with its freeway interchanges. Exit 4 (https://goo.gl/maps/4sXVP) is a pretty dangerous quadruple trumpet, Exit 10 (https://goo.gl/maps/sxI3J) is...odd, and Exit 15 (https://goo.gl/maps/rRTZQ) is just messed up. I won't even talk about Exit 5 (https://goo.gl/maps/f60WA), as no freeways are involved. I'd take Breezewood, I-99, or the old I-84 connection over any of these, even though all but Exit 5 provide direct connections to the adjacent freeway.

To be fair to those interchanges, though, all three started as much simpler designs.  Exit 4 was originally a traditional ticket-tollway double trumpet serving US 5.  Exit 10 served only MA 12 when built, as today's I-290/I-395 didn't exist yet.  Exits 14-15 were at the original eastern end of the Pike; following today's exit 14 eastbound takes you to the original toll plaza for the eastern end.  The Boston Extension added a lot of complexity there.  All three could have been severely modified when the new roads were added, but it was probably a lot easier and less costly to add on as was done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tomasher on August 20, 2014, 02:24:27 PM
Breezewood has a Sheetz. It's the only one of which I am aware that's in close proximity to the turnpike besides Bedford. If I'm hungry and driving the turnpike and I know of a Sheetz, I'll definitely get off and patronize it instead of the fast food at one of the service plazas.

There is a Sheetz very close to the Morgantown interchange as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 20, 2014, 02:59:07 PM
With ~137 miles of difference, I don't know that having a Sheetz at the Morgantown interchange would at all affect most people's decisions as to whether to stop at Breezewood or not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 20, 2014, 03:16:52 PM
With ~137 miles of difference, I don't know that having a Sheetz at the Morgantown interchange would at all affect most people's decisions as to whether to stop at Breezewood or not.

No. Not at all. When Sheetz calls, you answer. You don't wait 2 hours until you get to another one.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: LeftyJR on August 20, 2014, 06:38:25 PM
With ~137 miles of difference, I don't know that having a Sheetz at the Morgantown interchange would at all affect most people's decisions as to whether to stop at Breezewood or not.

No. Not at all. When Sheetz calls, you answer. You don't wait 2 hours until you get to another one.

I would probably try to stop at Bedford before I would Breezewood - but there is a "mini-Breezewood" there too, of course!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on August 20, 2014, 08:29:17 PM
Bedford is definitely closer to the turnpike than Breezewood, so it's an easer on/off.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 20, 2014, 10:58:40 PM
I am about to freak out and ask someone here to fedex me some Hellava Good French Onion Dip
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on August 24, 2014, 12:47:18 PM
When did they paint the tunnels from the blue/gray to just gray? also, same thing for the overpasses
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 24, 2014, 01:44:17 PM
When did they paint the tunnels from the blue/gray to just gray? also, same thing for the overpasses

It seems different sections get different colors when they paint stuff.  I noticed some purple between Cranberry & Ohio.  Some of the newer monotube sign supports are blue (Irwin/New Stanton), green (Allegheny Valley), etc...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on August 24, 2014, 02:01:11 PM
To me the tunnels look weird in Corporate Grey. At least add some contrast, the letters in a different color and the vent areas (are they still vents, or did they redesign the air system?) in a nice color. I mean the penna turnpike can make some nice stuff, like their welcome signs which to me look awesome.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 24, 2014, 04:22:57 PM
When did they paint the tunnels from the blue/gray to just gray? also, same thing for the overpasses

It seems different sections get different colors when they paint stuff.  I noticed some purple between Cranberry & Ohio.  Some of the newer monotube sign supports are blue (Irwin/New Stanton), green (Allegheny Valley), etc...

Just east of the Downingtown exit (we'll call it mile 313) is a bridge for a local road over the main line (Uwchlan Ave., pronounced "YUKE-lin") whose steel beams sport a color that to my eye is a dead ringer for the red of a cherry-dipped soft ice cream cone. Bright red, but a little maroon-ish, with a slight satin gloss (not an enamel nor a completely flat finish). They're cherry-dipped beams, I tell ya. Makes me peckish for a cone every time I drive under that bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on August 24, 2014, 07:30:08 PM
That bridge also I think may be the last replaced before going to faux-field stone look on bridge structures.

For what it is worth, most of the Delaware Vally monotubes (and bridges) have been painted brown; however I have seen some blue and red monotube around (there seems to be a sign replacement project underway, with some new... interesting signs), but I have not had a chance to see if they were installed in that color.

The NE Extension southbound has some new signs that merge diagrammatic arrows, the Mid-County exit name; exit tabs, and of course, Clearview. Will try to grab a shot at some point.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 25, 2014, 09:43:15 AM
That bridge also I think may be the last replaced before going to faux-field stone look on bridge structures.

I also think it was built by PennDOT, not the Turnpike, as part of a Uwchlan Ave. widening project in the early 00s.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on August 26, 2014, 02:36:53 PM
I am okay with the faux stone look on overpasses, it actually looks really nice, but when it is on the tunnel, it looks cheap and low class, since the tunnels for longer than most people realize, had the multi color paint job, with the bits above the entrance being blue. I would like to see them at least make the tunnel name Black or some contrasting Color from stone. At least they are not using that area for adverts. Imangine a projection screen on the vent (could work, as long as it keeps the function of the original part intact with preferations) advertizing EzPass or similar?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on August 28, 2014, 05:58:10 PM
That bridge also I think may be the last replaced before going to faux-field stone look on bridge structures.

For what it is worth, most of the Delaware Vally monotubes (and bridges) have been painted brown; however I have seen some blue and red monotube around (there seems to be a sign replacement project underway, with some new... interesting signs), but I have not had a chance to see if they were installed in that color.

The NE Extension southbound has some new signs that merge diagrammatic arrows, the Mid-County exit name; exit tabs, and of course, Clearview. Will try to grab a shot at some point.

Drove from NJ thru Valley Forge last weekend. There are several red and blue monotubes now existing at several interchanges. It looks like they're going with the red and blue ones throughout, especially at rebuilt interchanges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 02, 2014, 10:54:13 PM
Looks like the widening between MP 220 and Carlisle might be starting soon.  The website for the project still shows the earlier completed widening but the monthly schedule now notes 7 miles of roadway/bridge reconstruction.

http://www.paturnpike.com/improve/conschedule.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 06, 2014, 06:25:38 PM
I was wondering:  IIRC part of the original act 91 for Turnpike expansion projects included a way out future extension of PA 28/Allegheny Valley Freeway to I-80.  It would seem like establishing an I-80 freeway connection on a diagonal would be a profitable toll endeavor.  Do you see this actually happening in 25 years or less?  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 07, 2014, 11:16:46 AM
25 years is a long time, but I'd have to bet that it won't happen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on September 19, 2014, 08:11:53 PM
The southbound lanes of I-476 in the southern widening section are basically complete, fully striped, and ready to go.  The far right lane is coned off while clean-up work is being done.   The far right lane becomes an exit only for I-276 West, and the new diagrammatic overhead BGSs show that, but there is no specific EXIT ONLY signage.  (No photos, unfortunately).

It looked like the far left lane of the NB side was coned off but ready to go, but couldn't tell if the striping was done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2014, 09:13:34 AM
I hadn't realized that some of the PA Turnpike VMSs are full color. Several yesterday show a pic of cop killer Eric Frein.

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd144/roadnut/FBBA7185-B0C8-47E7-B059-05C933845F05.jpg) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/roadnut/media/FBBA7185-B0C8-47E7-B059-05C933845F05.jpg.html)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd144/roadnut/A2B43F30-1025-4721-8762-A0BA065B4DF0.jpg) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/roadnut/media/A2B43F30-1025-4721-8762-A0BA065B4DF0.jpg.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 20, 2014, 11:08:47 AM
Your post makes me ask a dumb question:  Was the PTC smart enough to place those expensive signs on wide enough gantries to accommodate the future widening of the mainline?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on September 20, 2014, 11:19:28 AM
Was the PTC smart enough to place those expensive signs on wide enough gantries to accommodate the future widening of the mainline?

It'd be great to see the PA Turnpike (mainline) widened, especially since most of it is pretty underwhelming in terms of design - but I don't think there are any plans to do so (correct me if I'm wrong).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2014, 11:21:01 AM
Most of these signs are off to the side on a monopole type support. This just happened to be over the road. It would depend on everything else that needs to be done, such as underground utilities, current standards for construction, etc. Even if these signs met the requirements today if the road were to be widened today, they may not meet the requirements of the future when they get around to widening the highway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 20, 2014, 12:07:52 PM
I could not tell from the photo above if you were travelling EB or WB, if it was EB, the stretch shown is due for imminent widening:

http://www.paturnpike.com/ConstructionProjects/mp215to226/

Which is why I asked.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on September 20, 2014, 12:19:35 PM
There is no widening planned, at this time, between mp 226 & 242.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2014, 03:47:08 PM
I was going WB.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 20, 2014, 03:51:30 PM
Just from what I can see in the picture, the posts for the gantry visible look far enough away that you could squeeze more highway in.  Of course, I can't see the posts on the other side, nor do I have any idea if they'd need equal amount of land on either side for what they'd want to do, or whatever.
It very well may just be the angle of the pic, but right now the sign seems to be over part of the right lane and right shoulder, but it could be pretty centered over three lanes of a widened highway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 22, 2014, 04:05:13 PM
Pennsylvania Turnpike service plaza in Bedford County to be rebuilt (http://www.post-gazette.com/local/east/2014/09/22/Turnpike-service-plaza-in-Bedford-County-to-be-rebuilt/stories/201409220173)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 23, 2014, 06:18:00 AM
It'd be great to see the PA Turnpike (mainline) widened, especially since most of it is pretty underwhelming in terms of design - but I don't think there are any plans to do so (correct me if I'm wrong).

There are plenty of segments that have been widened, or are being widened. Most of them have been in western Pennsylvania so far, but I'm guessing that's because that's where the road bed was oldest. Within a few years, the segments between the Ohio state line and the Beaver River, and I-79 and the Allegheny River, will all be reconstructed with six lanes. Another segment between Irwin and New Stanton already has.

Reconstruction is also underway on a segment east of Laurel Summit, and another segment east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. Design work is being done on a segment between Bedford and Breezewood. Pretty soon, everything between Blue Mountain and Carisle will be reconstructed as well.

In eastern Pennsylvania, most of the current reconstruction is taking place near I-95, and along the Northeast Extension. Design work is being done between Reading and King of Prussia.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mtantillo on September 23, 2014, 09:55:19 AM
Some of the Central portions of the Turnpike have been reconstructed as 4-lane, so not necessarily all of the reconstructed segments will be 6-lane. But in the Pittsburgh area, there is a need from a traffic volume standpoint.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 23, 2014, 05:05:23 PM
Some of the Central portions of the Turnpike have been reconstructed as 4-lane, so not necessarily all of the reconstructed segments will be 6-lane. But in the Pittsburgh area, there is a need from a traffic volume standpoint.

It's worth noting, though, that every reconstructed four-lane segment was done so before 2005, and every segment reconstructed since 2008 has been widened to six lanes. There was a period of inactivity along the Turnpike between 2005 and 2008, which leads me to believe that the Turnpike Commission decided sometime during that period of inactivity to have the entire highway widened to six lanes. It wouldn't surprise me if they do a partial reconstruction to add lanes to the recently-reconstructed four-lane segments.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on September 24, 2014, 08:44:29 AM
I thought they were planning on six-laning the whole thing anyway, even where it would be overkill.

The 70 multiplex, Harrisburg, and Pittsburgh areas need it though. Even in the Philly area, it could easily stand an eight-laning from Valley Forge over all the way to the NJTP, but I don't think that's planned at all. (The current river bridge is wide enough, but I don't know if the twin will be or if it will be narrower.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 24, 2014, 09:54:36 AM
I thought they were planning on six-laning the whole thing anyway, even where it would be overkill.

The 70 multiplex, Harrisburg, and Pittsburgh areas need it though. Even in the Philly area, it could easily stand an eight-laning from Valley Forge over all the way to the NJTP, but I don't think that's planned at all. (The current river bridge is wide enough, but I don't know if the twin will be or if it will be narrower.)

The bridge is wide enough for 6 lanes, but only carries 4 lanes (2 per direction) plus a full right shoulder in each direction.

The future bridge is supposed to be wide enough for at least 4 lanes also. The actual design, which I don't think is complete yet, may be 3 travel lanes and a shoulder, 3 travel lanes and 2 shoulders, etc.  At minimum though, it will be designed to hold at least 4 lanes when needed.  One of those needs will be when it first opens, as the current bridge will be closed for refurbishment.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 24, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
Just stopped by the PC Major Projects Design and Construction page and note a few new SW PA projects listed as now in design:  This is what I am seeing there:

MP 28-31 Reconstruction, which IIRC includes the 19/79 interchange
MP 49-53 Reconstruction
MP 53-57 Reconstruction
   This is consistent with what I have read in the past that 376 to the new Allegheny River Bridge would be 2 contracts.  Have not read the line item yet to see if it includes any 376 exit improvements.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 24, 2014, 07:55:03 PM
MP 28-31 does NOT include the 19/79 interchange, but does mention that the Thorn Hill Road Bridge will be replaced as an early action item in 2015.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 24, 2014, 07:57:32 PM
Have not read the line item yet to see if it includes any 376 exit improvements.

If it doesn't, it should. That thing is a Charlie Foxtrot. It looks kind of like that thing that was formerly at the I-94/US 24 interchange in Michigan, except worse.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 24, 2014, 08:03:21 PM
In case you did not know, this interchange was originally built in IIRC 1952 to serve ontly US 22 with a trumpet connection.  I-376 was an add on, spliced to the existing interchange, probably the first occurrance where an interstate was hooked to the turnpike.  About 1964?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 26, 2014, 10:49:20 AM
Just stopped by the PC Major Projects Design and Construction page and note a few new SW PA projects listed as now in design:  This is what I am seeing there:

MP 28-31 Reconstruction, which IIRC includes the 19/79 interchange
MP 49-53 Reconstruction
MP 53-57 Reconstruction
   This is consistent with what I have read in the past that 376 to the new Allegheny River Bridge would be 2 contracts.  Have not read the line item yet to see if it includes any 376 exit improvements.

They must have just added those projects to the page, because I went there earlier this week and didn't see them. The MM 28-MM 31 Project does not involve a reconfiguration of the I-79/U.S. 19 interchange; that was done early last decade (the "Cranberry Connector" project).

I have a hunch that the I-376/U.S. 22 interchange will be reconfigured because of the I-79/U.S 19 and I-95 reconfigurations, though it might end up being its own separate project too.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 26, 2014, 12:31:48 PM
(http://www.paturnpike.com/images/constmap2/PAmodified092414.gif)

Look at all that activity! And everything except 'G' and 'H' involves at least one of the following:


1. Long-span bridge replacements
2. Interchange reconfigurations
3. Total reconstruction and widening to six lanes


In another 10 years, the Pennsylvania Turnpike will be a thoroughly modern highway once again.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 08, 2014, 11:32:47 PM
A new project has been added:

The design phase of the Freedom Road bridge in Cranberry.  I've been waiting for this one to be dealt with since the late 1970's.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 09, 2014, 05:11:27 AM
A new project has been added:

The design phase of the Freedom Road bridge in Cranberry.  I've been waiting for this one to be dealt with since the late 1970's.

And it's likely a precursor to six-laning the Turnpike between I-79 and the Beaver River. Sometime early next decade, the Turnpike will be six lanes all the way from Ohio to New Stanton.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 09, 2014, 07:59:26 PM
A new project has been added:

The design phase of the Freedom Road bridge in Cranberry.  I've been waiting for this one to be dealt with since the late 1970's.

And it's likely a precursor to six-laning the Turnpike between I-79 and the Beaver River. Sometime early next decade, the Turnpike will be six lanes all the way from Ohio to New Stanton.

Hopefully Freedom Road will be at least 4 lanes (2 each way) over the Turnpike with the new bridge.  It's needed badly.  I've seen traffic get backed up pretty bad coming into Cranberry over the Turnpike because it gets jammed up by traffic trying to turn left onto Executive Drive.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on October 09, 2014, 09:35:18 PM
There is no other project listed between mms 14 and 28 yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 10, 2014, 02:31:03 AM
A new project has been added:

The design phase of the Freedom Road bridge in Cranberry.  I've been waiting for this one to be dealt with since the late 1970's.

And it's likely a precursor to six-laning the Turnpike between I-79 and the Beaver River. Sometime early next decade, the Turnpike will be six lanes all the way from Ohio to New Stanton.

Hopefully Freedom Road will be at least 4 lanes (2 each way) over the Turnpike with the new bridge.  It's needed badly.  I've seen traffic get backed up pretty bad coming into Cranberry over the Turnpike because it gets jammed up by traffic trying to turn left onto Executive Drive.

Directly from the project's home page:

"The goal of this project is to completely replace and widen the bridge to add travel lanes to accommodate the high traffic volumes on Freedom Road."

There is no other project listed between mms 14 and 28 yet.

Directly from the project's home page:

"The new structure will also be lengthened to accommodate the Turnpike’s template for the future reconstruction of the Turnpike which includes an additional travel lane in each direction."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 10, 2014, 06:12:13 AM
There is no other project listed between mms 14 and 28 yet.

Directly from the project's home page:

"The new structure will also be lengthened to accommodate the Turnpike’s template for the future reconstruction of the Turnpike which includes an additional travel lane in each direction."

But note the 'template' part of that statement. I doubt it's something that'll be done in the short term.  There are numerous bridge reconstructions for widenings that ultimately never take place.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 10, 2014, 06:45:41 AM
There is no other project listed between mms 14 and 28 yet.

Directly from the project's home page:

"The new structure will also be lengthened to accommodate the Turnpike’s template for the future reconstruction of the Turnpike which includes an additional travel lane in each direction."

But note the 'template' part of that statement. I doubt it's something that'll be done in the short term.  There are numerous bridge reconstructions for widenings that ultimately never take place.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike has already been widened to six lanes from the Ohio state line to MM 10, and will very soon be widened between MM 10 and MM 14. It's also been widened from MM 31 to MM 38, MM 48 to MM 49, and MM 67 to MM 75, with ongoing widening from MM 40 to MM 48, and future widening in design from MM 28 to MM 31, and MM 49 to MM 67. Given all this, it's pointless to keep MM 14 to MM 28 four lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 10, 2014, 10:19:13 AM
It looks to me like the PTC is missing the boat.  Freedom road needs a 7 lane bridge now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on October 17, 2014, 07:23:29 AM
The new lanes of the widened section of the Northeast Extension are scheduled to be opened today.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 17, 2014, 08:28:54 AM
The new lanes of the widen section of the Northeast Extension are scheduled to be opened today.
That's good news.  I'll be using that stretch tomorrow evening.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mergingtraffic on October 18, 2014, 06:26:17 PM
There's a sign on I-276 WB just past the Delaware River Bridge that says "I-276 WEST Harrisburg" with 2 down arrows.  Is the space here for a future I-95 shield or just a wide spot?  Doesn't look big enough to fit a shield in there though.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3936/15381421197_c16dc50fb3_z.jpg)

here it is with the other sign:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5609/14946686984_ef2cc0860b_z.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 19, 2014, 02:03:27 AM
There's a sign on I-276 WB just past the Delaware River Bridge that says "I-276 WEST Harrisburg" with 2 down arrows.  Is the space here for a future I-95 shield or just a wide spot?  Doesn't look big enough to fit a shield in there though.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3936/15381421197_c16dc50fb3_z.jpg)

here it is with the other sign:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5609/14946686984_ef2cc0860b_z.jpg)

I think those signs are old (with a new exit tab on one), so I'm not sure it even matters because I bet that they'll replace the sign on the left at the very least. The condensed "276" font inside the Interstate shield looks like the condensed "376," "279" and "579" font I saw on signs in Pittsburgh that were fabricated in the mid-1980s. Since the 1990s, the font inside three-digit Interstate shields in Pennsylvania has either been the normal font, or an even more condensed font. The two signs in your picture (save the exit tab) could be examples of some of the first fully reflectorized, non-button-copy signs in Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2014, 10:09:42 AM
No: 95 would go on the top line, not below it. The extra space would be reserved for a destination name "Philadelphia", "Pittsburgh", etc. or, most likely, it's just a fuck up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mergingtraffic on October 19, 2014, 10:59:46 AM
No: 95 would go on the top line, not below it. The extra space would be reserved for a destination name "Philadelphia", "Pittsburgh", etc. or, most likely, it's just a fuck up.
A f-up....yep that's what I figured. Kinda surprised not much I-276 signage in that area anyway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on October 19, 2014, 12:31:12 PM
No: 95 would go on the top line, not below it.

Not necessarily - while I'm not sure that this would be the case in this situation you could put it like the following:

(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/dc095/i-295_nb_exit_004_03.jpg)
Picture from AARoads.com

However, I would assume that there won't be such installed on that sign, rather an entirely new sign created when the needs arise.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on October 19, 2014, 01:25:55 PM
When the I-95/Turnpike connexion has been completed, these signs will then be above the I-95.  So the I-276 sign would have to be replaced by an I-95 sign; also, the exit number on the other sign would have to be replaced accordingly.

These signs look a lot newer than the structure on which they are mounted.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mergingtraffic on October 19, 2014, 04:06:50 PM
When the I-95/Turnpike connexion has been completed, these signs will then be above the I-95.  So the I-276 sign would have to be replaced by an I-95 sign; also, the exit number on the other sign would have to be replaced accordingly.

These signs look a lot newer than the structure on which they are mounted.

I was also thinking possibly that PENNDOT thought ahead like NJ did (see pic below). but there isn't enough space and weren't sure how old those signs were.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5604/15305361449_76faa3fb36_z.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: KEVIN_224 on October 19, 2014, 08:44:09 PM
I was on that part of the New Jersey Turnpike yesterday (between Exit 4 in Mount Laurel and East Spur Exit 16E in Secaucus). No doubt in my mind that said sign will soon read

PENN TURNPIKE
PHILADELPHIA

Also, I noticed this while in Philadelphia from mid-day Friday until early Saturday afternoon:
(http://i.imgur.com/6Fjf8Gk.jpg)
At of-noon on a Saturday. Is I-76/Schuylkill Expressway always backed up onto I-676/US Route 30 West like this?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on October 19, 2014, 09:10:55 PM
The back-up is caused by the two lanes on the left having to merge into one lane to get onto the westbound Schuylkil Expressway.  Even though there is no further merge onto the Schuykill Expressway itself, this back-up occurs at most times.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2014, 09:46:42 PM
I was on that part of the New Jersey Turnpike yesterday (between Exit 4 in Mount Laurel and East Spur Exit 16E in Secaucus). No doubt in my mind that said sign will soon read

PENN TURNPIKE
PHILADELPHIA

It will.

Quote

Also, I noticed this while in Philadelphia from mid-day Friday until early Saturday afternoon:
(http://i.imgur.com/6Fjf8Gk.jpg)
At of-noon on a Saturday. Is I-76/Schuylkill Expressway always backed up onto I-676/US Route 30 West like this?

It's almost always going to be like that on the weekends. The Schuykill Expressway is simply busy in the weekends in both directions.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on October 20, 2014, 09:23:06 AM
Also, I noticed this while in Philadelphia from mid-day Friday until early Saturday afternoon:
[...]
At of-noon on a Saturday. Is I-76/Schuylkill Expressway always backed up onto I-676/US Route 30 West like this?

It's almost always going to be like that on the weekends. The Schuykill Expressway is simply busy in the weekends in both directions.
the Schuylkill is usually backed-up approaching the Vine from the west, and the Vine is usually backed-up approaching the Schuylkill. it's only during particularly light traffic times that everything moves freely. during rush hour, the Vine will be backed up end-to-end and then some - with the Schuylkill backed up starting at Girard or Spring Garden, and I-95 starting at Allegheny or NJ 90.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 20, 2014, 10:04:15 AM
There's a sign on I-276 WB just past the Delaware River Bridge that says "I-276 WEST Harrisburg" with 2 down arrows.  Is the space here for a future I-95 shield or just a wide spot?  Doesn't look big enough to fit a shield in there though.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5609/14946686984_ef2cc0860b_z.jpg)

I think those signs are old (with a new exit tab on one), so I'm not sure it even matters because I bet that they'll replace the sign on the left at the very least. The condensed "276" font inside the Interstate shield looks like the condensed "376," "279" and "579" font I saw on signs in Pittsburgh that were fabricated in the mid-1980s. Since the 1990s, the font inside three-digit Interstate shields in Pennsylvania has either been the normal font, or an even more condensed font. The two signs in your picture (save the exit tab) could be examples of some of the first fully reflectorized, non-button-copy signs in Pennsylvania.
Those BGS', except for the Exit tab are from the late 1980s or very early 1990s.  The space on the I-276 West pull-through BGS may have indeed been intended for a more immediate (closer) destination (Philadelphia perhaps) to be added when the I-95 interchange would eventually have been completed.  The 276 WEST heading would've been replaced with either 95 SOUTH or 95 TO 276 with maybe a SOUTH heading in smaller letters added.

That font for the 276 numerals are Series C and IMHO is the proper font to be used for 3dis not containing a 1 in them.  The narrower Series B or the Series D (either crowded together or elongated) one sees on more recent I-276 shields on BGS' look rather sloppy.

The new lanes of the widen section of the Northeast Extension are scheduled to be opened today.
That's good news.  I'll be using that stretch tomorrow evening.
Update: the widened section that opened runs for about 5 miles north of the I-276 & Mid-County interchange.  Work is still being done on the widening between MM 25-26 and the Lansdale interchange.

No photos of such (I was driving at night) but there are now diagrammatic approach BGS' along I-476 southbound for I-276 & the Mid-County toll plaza.  The straight-up arrow (w/out lane stripes) is for I-476 South and the two right-turn arrows are for the I-276 West & East ramps. 

Worth noting:

1.  There is no yellow LEFT tab on the EXIT 20 tab.

2.  There's a separate, wider left-mounted tab for the interchange/toll plaza name (MID-COUNTY) placed just below the fore-mentioned exit tab.  Such gives the BGS panel boards a stepped appearance.

4.  The Philadelphia/Chester listing (postitioned one above the other) for I-476 South are postioned in such a way that there's little or no blank space between the 2 destinations and the Chester listing is right-justified with respect to the Philadelphia listing.  Left & Right justification of 2-line listings for exit BGS' has been an off-and-on PennDOT & PTC practice since about 2000.  IMHO, doing such for a diagrammatic BGS is inappropriate & unnecessary.  It's not like it's being done to reduce the sign panel size (the BGS' are very tall due to the stacked movements for the I-276 exits).  The 2nd-line (Chester in this case) should be positioned so that there's at least one-full-letter height space between it and the Philadelphia heading and be center-justified.

5.  The numerals for the I-476 shields are Series C (Good!) but the numerals for the I-276 shields are Series B (Not so good IMHO).

6.  Only the destination listings (Philadelphia, Chester, Harrisburg & New Jersey) are shown in the Clearview font (Good!).

7.  One of the earlier-erected BGS panels just before the interchange was slightly modified.  The BGS for I-276 West, which featured the squished Series D numerals, was replaced with a shield cotaining Series B numerals and a yellow EXIT \|/ ONLY panel was placed over the bottom part of the panel that previously read NEXT RIGHT.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 20, 2014, 12:49:34 PM
Is "Exit 20" technically a left exit worthy of a yellow Left tab? It is actually the "thru" movement of that interchange, with access to the East-West mainline the right-hand movements.

Also, the right-justification made sense to me, as those all align with the "Exit 20" information. For the amount of information on that sign (three exits, the Mid-County exit number and name, exit only reference and control cities; distance to exit) it is a very readable sign.

Edit: I guess my point is, the sign itself is centered on the I-476 through-movement diagram, so the right justification on its right for I-476 control, and left justification for the I-276 control/exits makes sense in the overall placement...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 20, 2014, 02:46:44 PM
Is "Exit 20" technically a left exit worthy of a yellow Left tab? It is actually the "thru" movement of that interchange, with access to the East-West mainline the right-hand movements.
Such didn't stop MassDOT from installing an LEFT EXIT 1B tab over its I-95 North/US 1 South BGS at the I-95/93 interchange in Canton roughly a year ago.

Scroll down to the Dec. 2013 photos (http://www.gribblenation.net/mass21/i93photos.html)

Also, the right-justification made sense to me, as those all align with the "Exit 20" information. For the amount of information on that sign (three exits, the Mid-County exit number and name, exit only reference and control cities; distance to exit) it is a very readable sign.

Edit: I guess my point is, the sign itself is centered on the I-476 through-movement diagram, so the right justification on its right for I-476 control, and left justification for the I-276 control/exits makes sense in the overall placement...
Until this past Saturday night, I have never seen left/right justification of destination listings on a diagrammatic BGS.  If one actually saw the BGS (either in person of viewing a photo); one would clearly see how silly it was for PTC to do such.

Note: The separate panel BGS erected closer to the interchange (& erected earlier) (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Plymouth+Meeting,+PA&aq=0&oq=plymouth+meeting,+PA&sll=40.002498,-75.118033&sspn=0.376076,0.602188&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Plymouth+Meeting,+Montgomery+County,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.119319,-75.280101&spn=0.000033,0.018818&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.119401,-75.280165&panoid=MmYQZgLLtSffuUQolZ4Odw&cbp=12,148.91,,0,16.62) does not do such.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on October 20, 2014, 02:52:05 PM
Note: The separate panel BGS erected closer to the interchange (& erected earlier) (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Plymouth+Meeting,+PA&aq=0&oq=plymouth+meeting,+PA&sll=40.002498,-75.118033&sspn=0.376076,0.602188&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Plymouth+Meeting,+Montgomery+County,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.119319,-75.280101&spn=0.000033,0.018818&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.119401,-75.280165&panoid=MmYQZgLLtSffuUQolZ4Odw&cbp=12,148.91,,0,16.62) does not do such.

I love how each one of those signs has a different typeface for the numbers inside the shield... from left to right: C, B, D. Even the C bleeds into the border of the shield - I still think it should be 15" numerals and not these gargantuan 18" numerals that barely have any breathing room inside the shield.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 20, 2014, 03:24:20 PM
I love how each one of those signs has a different typeface for the numbers inside the shield... from left to right: C, B, D. Even the C bleeds into the border of the shield - I still think it should be 15" numerals and not these gargantuan 18" numerals that barely have any breathing room inside the shield.
I spoke about this earlier.  The I-276 shield with the squashed Series D numerals has since been replaced with one having Series B numerals; at least, it's consistent with the other I-276 shields on newer BGS'... the supplemental BGS featuring elongated Series D 276 numerals located further north being the exception.

If one insists on using Series D for 3di shields not containing a 1; the numeral height needs to be shorter.  The lone-remaining button-copy BGS (early-90s vintage) along I-476 South (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Plymouth+Meeting,+PA&aq=0&oq=plymouth+m&sll=40.002498,-75.118033&sspn=0.376076,0.602188&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Plymouth+Meeting,+Montgomery+County,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.113445,-75.277998&spn=0.000033,0.018818&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.113533,-75.277966&panoid=fhj9JoQTrarTYXf5QetLRA&cbp=12,195.39,,0,7.7) at the I-276 East exit ramp is an example of 3di Series D numerals done right.

I said this before & I'll say it again; maybe PTC & PennDOT need to look towards NJTA to see how a proper-looking I-276 shield should look like.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 20, 2014, 03:39:31 PM
Such didn't stop MassDOT from installing an LEFT EXIT 1B tab over its I-95 North/US 1 South BGS at the I-95/93 interchange in Canton roughly a year ago.

Interesting. I am not as familiar with that interchange, but that is I-93 exiting onto I-95, right? My point: There is a route change. Here, I-476 continues south for another 20 or so miles, absent the toll/toll plaza, I would not expect this movement to have an exit number. Before the mile-based renumber, it was actually numbered as a mainline I-276 exit, 25A. In fact, wouldn't it make more sense to have Exit 20 A/B be for the exit-to-mainline movements?


Quote
Until this past Saturday night, I have never seen left/right justification of destination listings on a diagrammatic BGS.  If one actually saw the BGS (either in person of viewing a photo); one would clearly see how silly it was for PTC to do such.

I have seen it, in fact I think I commented on them after they first appeared, but have not had the chance to get a picture. (this is my neck of the woods, I live less than 5 miles away from said overheads). In the interest of discussion, I submit the following crude ASCII version:



 [EXIT 20]
 [MID-COUNTY]
 +---------------------------------------+
 |      476 South /|\                    |
 |                 | / 276 East          |
 |   Philadelphia  |/  New Jersey        |
 |        Chester  |_________________    |
 |                 |                     |
 |                 |/  276 West          |
 |                 ||  Harrisburg        |
 |                 ||                    |
 |               1 Mile                  |
 +---------------------------------------+
  (Proper Interstate shields where route number indicated)

Quote
Note: The separate panel BGS erected closer to the interchange (& erected earlier) (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Plymouth+Meeting,+PA&aq=0&oq=plymouth+meeting,+PA&sll=40.002498,-75.118033&sspn=0.376076,0.602188&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Plymouth+Meeting,+Montgomery+County,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.119319,-75.280101&spn=0.000033,0.018818&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.119401,-75.280165&panoid=MmYQZgLLtSffuUQolZ4Odw&cbp=12,148.91,,0,16.62) does not do such.

I don't see the relationship with the three panel signs further downstream, they are three discrete signs, centered to their own internal center line.

I agree I have not seen this treatment on other BGS diagrammatic (or at least ones I can readily think of). Can you imagine what the APL would have looked like?






Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 20, 2014, 04:09:06 PM
I have seen it, in fact I think I commented on them after they first appeared, but have not had the chance to get a picture. (this is my neck of the woods, I live less than 5 miles away from said overheads). In the interest of discussion, I submit the following crude ASCII version:
How long ago did you see them?  I know they weren't there 2 months ago.



 [EXIT 20]
 [MID-COUNTY]
 +---------------------------------------+
 |     SOUTH 476 /|\                    |
 |                 | / 276 East          |
 |   Philadelphia  |/  New Jersey        |
 |        Chester  |_________________    |
 |                 |                     |
 |                 | /  276 West         |
 |                 |/   Harrisburg       |
 |                 |                     |
 |               1 Mile                  |
 +---------------------------------------+
  (Proper Interstate shields where route number indicated)

See above for minor legend fix.  I also believe that the Philadelphia/Chester listings are closer to the SOUTH 476 legend thereby leaving a lot of green space below.

I don't see the relationship with the three panel signs further downstream, they are three discrete signs, centered to their own internal center line.
Per MUTCD, the final BGS' at an interchange that have preceeding diagrammatic approach BGS' are separate panels.  The issue here is consistency.  Had those 3 BGS panels been erected at the same time as the approach BGS'; the justification oddity would've been noticed right away. 

I agree I have not seen this treatment on other BGS diagrammatic (or at least ones I can readily think of). Can you imagine what the APL would have looked like?
I'm not sure if this ramp configuration even meets the criteria for APLs; I don't think it does.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 20, 2014, 04:38:15 PM
How long ago did you see them?  I know they weren't there 2 months ago.

Last night, just before midnight. And several times before that. I commented about the signs, briefly, in late August (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=419.msg2002449#msg2002449); so 2 months sounds right. They are, as you mention, much newer than the last set of signs prior to the merge.

Quote


 [EXIT 20]
 [MID-COUNTY]
 +---------------------------------------+
 |      SOUTH 476 /|\                    |
 |                 | / 276 East          |
 |   Philadelphia  |/  New Jersey        |
 |        Chester  |_________________    |
 |                 |                     |
 |                 | /  276 West         |
 |                 |/   Harrisburg       |
 |                 |                     |
 |               1 Mile                  |
 +---------------------------------------+
  (Proper Interstate shields where route number indicated)

See above for minor legend fix.  I also believe that the Philadelphia/Chester listings are closer to the SOUTH 476 legend thereby leaving a lot of green space below.

Fixed your margins.  :biggrin: There is indeed much green space. It's sad -- again, I live quite close to these, I need to see if I can get a real image. I promised that in August... fail.

Quote
I don't see the relationship with the three panel signs further downstream, they are three discrete signs, centered to their own internal center line.
Per MUTCD, the final BGS' at an interchange that have preceeding diagrammatic approach BGS' are separate panels.  The issue here is consistency.  Had those 3 BGS panels been erected at the same time as the approach BGS'; the justification oddity would've been noticed right away. 

Ok. It certainly would look very strange if those three sign legends were not centered. I would have a bigger issue, however, if the legends suddenly changed to Plymouth Meeting, Horsham, and Norristown, after at least 3 BGS diagrams that make no mention of those locations. As for consistency, though the exit tab is left-justified, note there is no Left indicator there, either. And again, if not for "exiting the Turnpike" -- I don't even think Exit 20 would be designated for this interchange (to "the Blue Route"), with the advent of highway speed E-Zpass, and one day full ORT; this will feel like even less of an "exit" to stay on I-476.

There are some other signs that have been replaced in the area, and some are really odd - the exit off Norristown, for example, has an all caps sign for PLYMOUTH ROAD (Centered) past the toll plaza. Again, will have to figure out the best way to get images of all the updates.




Quote
I agree I have not seen this treatment on other BGS diagrammatic (or at least ones I can readily think of). Can you imagine what the APL would have looked like?
I'm not sure if this ramp configuration even meets the criteria for APLs; I don't think it does.

It may not, but I thought "new" diagram signs like this were also discouraged. I guess that would revert to repeating the panel signs as an alternative.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 20, 2014, 06:01:52 PM
Those things are discouraged, but not prohibited. Contrast that with the slanted arrows Ohio loved to use for option lanes (until they changed their MUTCD to be identical to the national one ~2 years ago). Really confusing if you aren't from somewhere that uses them, hence why they've been banned.

I might be the only one, but I like the arrow-per-lane signs because they can be easily read at highway speed without taking attention away from the road. There are a few diagrammatics in/near Buffalo that are pretty difficult to read and two are the only lane assignment sign before the gore point. That's what the MUTCD is getting at- might show everything, but not as clear as the alternative.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 21, 2014, 08:36:01 AM
I would have a bigger issue, however, if the legends suddenly changed to Plymouth Meeting, Horsham, and Norristown, after at least 3 BGS diagrams that make no mention of those locations.
When the first BGS for I-276 West was erected, a few non-roadgeek friends of mine asked why Norristown wasn't included on the sign like its button-copy predecessor was.  Some actually thought that they couldn't get to Germantown Pike (Norristown interchange) anymore via I-276 West.  While I may have successfully convinced them that nothing really changed except for the sign listings, they would've been totally lost if I explained to them why only one destination is listed for one direction rather than two.

While there is a supplemental BGS for the I-276 East & West movements; it only lists the exit number ranges (333 -2 for I-276 West); there's no town listings.  IMHO, a supplemental BGS reading Germantown Pike use EXIT 333 off I-276 WEST would be justified.  Not everybody knows which exit number corresponds to what road or town.

One surprise, and I mentioned such earlier when the three BGS' at the interchange was first erected, is that PTC is still using New Jersey for the I-276 East destination despite MUTCD now either discouraging or prohibiting such.  IMHO, this is one case where using a state name for a destination is appropriate.  Some BGS' have used either Philadelphia at PA 611 (which would not be correct IMHO) or N.J. Tunpike - New York (along I-476 North) as listed I-276 East destinations.

I might be the only one, but I like the arrow-per-lane signs because they can be easily read at highway speed without taking attention away from the road.
In general, APLs are only used when there's one lane that allows for more than one direction (aka a shared lane) and there are only two direction choices(?).  This interchange has two off-ramps off I-476 in short proximity and does not have a shared lane; therefore APL signage would not be appropriate in this case.  OTOH, using diagrammatic signage makes perfect sense here.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 21, 2014, 10:33:54 AM
I would have a bigger issue, however, if the legends suddenly changed to Plymouth Meeting, Horsham, and Norristown, after at least 3 BGS diagrams that make no mention of those locations.
When the first BGS for I-276 West was erected, a few non-roadgeek friends of mine asked why Norristown wasn't included on the sign like its button-copy predecessor was.  Some actually thought that they couldn't get to Germantown Pike (Norristown interchange) anymore via I-276 West.  While I may have successfully convinced them that nothing really changed except for the sign listings, they would've been totally lost if I explained to them why only one destination is listed for one direction rather than two.

While there is a supplemental BGS for the I-276 East & West movements; it only lists the exit number ranges (333 -2 for I-276 West); there's no town listings.  IMHO, a supplemental BGS reading Germantown Pike use EXIT 333 off I-276 WEST would be justified.  Not everybody knows which exit number corresponds to what road or town.

One surprise, and I mentioned such earlier when the three BGS' at the interchange was first erected, is that PTC is still using New Jersey for the I-276 East destination despite MUTCD now either discouraging or prohibiting such.  IMHO, this is one case where using a state name for a destination is appropriate.  Some BGS' have used either Philadelphia at PA 611 (which would not be correct IMHO) or N.J. Tunpike - New York (along I-476 North) as listed I-276 East destinations.

I might be the only one, but I like the arrow-per-lane signs because they can be easily read at highway speed without taking attention away from the road.
In general, APLs are only used when there's one lane that allows for more than one direction (aka a shared lane) and there are only two direction choices(?).  This interchange has two off-ramps off I-476 in short proximity and does not have a shared lane; therefore APL signage would not be appropriate in this case.  OTOH, using diagrammatic signage makes perfect sense here.

Quote
Standard:
On freeways and expressways, either the Overhead Arrow-per-Lane or Diagrammatic guide sign
designs as provided in Sections 2E.21 and 2E.22 shall be used for all multi-lane exits at major interchanges
(see Section 2E.32) that have an optional exit lane that also carries the through route (see Figures 2E-4,
2E-5, 2E-8, and 2E-9) and for all splits that include an option lane (see Figures 2E-6 and 2E-10). Overhead
Arrow-per-Lane or Diagrammatic guide signs shall not be used on freeways and expressways for any other
types of exits or splits, including single-lane exits and splits that do not have an option lane.

Diagrammatics are inappropriate in this situation, as well. Both types of signs are explicitly forbidden
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 21, 2014, 11:13:58 AM
Diagrammatics are inappropriate in this situation, as well. Both types of signs are explicitly forbidden
Wouldn't be the first time for PTC to either deviate or use a superseded MUTCD standard; IIRC, diagrammatics for splits without an optional exit lane used to be allowed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 21, 2014, 11:50:25 AM
When the first BGS for I-276 West was erected, a few non-roadgeek friends of mine asked why Norristown wasn't included on the sign like its button-copy predecessor was.

The old Norristown signs (and interchange) got me into trouble when I first moved out this way, and gave directions to friends and family. They followed the routing to the mainline Turnpike exit for Norristown, instead of I-476 Exit 19, as intended. That is likely why Norristown is no longer mentioned southbound -- the exit is actually Plymouth Meeting, which was a much smaller town when the original Turnpike was constructed. There is talk of a slip-ramp/EZ Pass only exit within city of Norristown that would probably lead to the existing exit being renamed.


  Some actually thought that they couldn't get to Germantown Pike (Norristown interchange) anymore via I-276 West.  While I may have successfully convinced them that nothing really changed except for the sign listings, they would've been totally lost if I explained to them why only one destination is listed for one direction rather than two.

Adding a Germantown Pike (and/or Plymouth Meeting) supplement would seem to make sense. New Jersey is probably appropriate as well, I guess you could in theory make it PA TPK to NJ TPK... or perhaps NE Philly/etc.


Quote
I might be the only one, but I like the arrow-per-lane signs because they can be easily read at highway speed without taking attention away from the road.
In general, APLs are only used when there's one lane that allows for more than one direction (aka a shared lane) and there are only two direction choices(?).  This interchange has two off-ramps off I-476 in short proximity and does not have a shared lane; therefore APL signage would not be appropriate in this case.  OTOH, using diagrammatic signage makes perfect sense here.

I thought the exit to 276 East was an option lane, but might be remembering that wrong.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 21, 2014, 01:04:56 PM
Quote
I might be the only one, but I like the arrow-per-lane signs because they can be easily read at highway speed without taking attention away from the road.
In general, APLs are only used when there's one lane that allows for more than one direction (aka a shared lane) and there are only two direction choices(?).  This interchange has two off-ramps off I-476 in short proximity and does not have a shared lane; therefore APL signage would not be appropriate in this case.  OTOH, using diagrammatic signage makes perfect sense here.

I thought the exit to 276 East was an option lane, but might be remembering that wrong.

Only if coming from the Blue Route. Is not heading south, unless they pulled a PTC and made the loop ramp 2 lanes recently.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 21, 2014, 01:41:10 PM
I might be the only one, but I like the arrow-per-lane signs because they can be easily read at highway speed without taking attention away from the road. There are a few diagrammatics in/near Buffalo that are pretty difficult to read and two are the only lane assignment sign before the gore point. That's what the MUTCD is getting at- might show everything, but not as clear as the alternative.
I prefer arrow-per-lane to diagrammatics, but not to to old standard of having down arrows on the regular exit sign.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 21, 2014, 04:53:25 PM
The old Norristown signs (and interchange) got me into trouble when I first moved out this way, and gave directions to friends and family. They followed the routing to the mainline Turnpike exit for Norristown, instead of I-476 Exit 19, as intended. That is likely why Norristown is no longer mentioned southbound -- the exit is actually Plymouth Meeting, which was a much smaller town when the original Turnpike was constructed. There is talk of a slip-ramp/EZ Pass only exit within city of Norristown that would probably lead to the existing exit being renamed.
I'm a bit confused.  Where were your friends & family coming from?  If they were coming from the north and stayed on I-476 Southbound, the next exit after the toll gantry is Exit 18 (for Ridge Pike that's marked as Norristown*)  *for a very brief period it also had Conshohocken listed underneath but was greened out.

The older BGS I was referring to read:

276 WEST
Norristown
Harrisburg
EXITS 333 - 2


and when one merged w/I-276 West, the Norristown/Germantown Pike interchange (Exit 333) is right there.

If they're coming from the south via I-476 North, the only exit marked for Norristown is Exit 16B 18B (which places one on Chemical Road and one turns right to connect to Ridge Pike westbound).  If they were going to the Plymouth Meeting Mall or Germantown Pike westbound, why would they need to get on the Turnpike (I-276)?  One can't even directly get on I-276 West from I-476 North without using local roads (Plymouth Road or Germantown Pike).

IIRC, signage for Exit 19 off I-476 North (which connects to Chemical Road further north) never contained Norristown in its listing.  It always had Plymouth Mtg. in its listing.  Earlier BGS used to have Germantown Pike - EAST listings on the main exit panels; such has since been moved to a supplemental BGS.

Nonetheless, there should be another supplemental BGS along I-476 South before I-276 that lists either Germantown Pike or Plymouth Meeting to use I-276 West to Exit 333.

The proposed EZ-Pass slip-ramp located closer to Norristown, if built, wouldn't have had a bearing on the old I-276 West BGS containing Norristown in it; it might prompt the PTC to rename the Norristown/Germantown Pike exit
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 22, 2014, 11:46:53 AM
There were various levels of confusion, (and yes, exit 18 as indicated). Instead of staying on I-476 South through Mid-County, then taking the exit for Norristown, they followed the old PA TPK signs to the mainline Norristown exit, off I-276 West.

I am sure you mean exit 18B for Norristown, from I-476 North. (16 A/B is the I-76/PA23 interchange) Interestingly, on the off ramp of 18-B is a sign to Norristown, indicating 3 miles; within a distance of less than a half-mile, the next intersection has a Norristown 1 sign.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 22, 2014, 12:14:23 PM
I am sure you mean exit 18B for Norristown, from I-476 North.
You're right, I did.  I've since corrected my earlier post; it was a long day.

Interestingly, on the off ramp of 18-B is a sign to Norristown, indicating 3 miles; within a distance of less than a half-mile, the next intersection has a Norristown 1 sign.
That's not the first time I've seen an inconsistency with listed distances. 

Many years ago in Revere, MA (the rotary at the Wonderland Blue Line T-station); there were MA 1A signage that listed Boston as both 5 miles and 11 miles away and these signs were only yards apart from each other.  The older sign with the latter listed distance dates back to when MA 1A along w/its US 1 companion had a longer routing prior to entering Boston's city limits but the sign was never updated (the routing changed in 1971). 

Adding insult to injury, when the sign was replaced (due to being knocked over & destroyed in an accident) sometime in the very early 90s; the obsolete/erroneous 11 mile distance to Boston was carried over onto the replacement sign.

I prefer arrow-per-lane to diagrammatics
While this is getting OT; my beef with the new APLs are the grossly-oversized arrows... particularly the upright ones (for straight-through movements).  Such make for unnecessarily large sign boards.  One state, mentioned in another thread, actually used smaller (but not too small) arrows for their APLs; and the BGS' looked 10 times better than any MUTCD-spec'd APLs IMHO.

Additionally, like the diagrammatic scheme, the final BGS' at the ramp splits for APLs are separate panels for each direction.  I'm sorry but the BGS panel for the straight-through traffic containing only long, upward arrows just looks wrong.  Maybe it's because I've seen pull-through BGS' w/short, downward arrows for nearly 40 years (yes, I recall seeing them as a kid while riding w/family or on a school bus).  IMHO, downward arrows should be used on the final separate BGS panel for straight/through movements. 

The only time, prior to MUTCD's current APL scheme, where I've seen upward arrows on overhead signs were R3-5a signs.  MUTCD APL's scheme is obviously attempting to replicate composite R3-5a signs (the arrows only not the ONLY text) into the BGS board.  All other overhead signs for straight/through movements feature a downward arrow.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 22, 2014, 01:12:40 PM
I agree about the arrows being over-sized, but I never really liked diagrammatics either.  Also, none of the NYSDOT arrow-per-lane installs I've seen (all in Region 4) have separate panels at the final sign before the split.  It's just arrow-per-lane all the way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on October 25, 2014, 02:50:28 PM
I've analysed the various construction schedules published by the PTC for various projects along the mainline of the Turnpike.  I've summarised them below:

Mileposts.         Start    Complete
 12    -   14.       1/16     12/18
 40    -   48.       7/14.     1/17.   (Eastbound)
                         1/17.     1/19.   (Westbound)
124.5 - 130.8.    1/17.     7/19
130.8 - 133.8.    3/19.     1/21
149.5 - 155.5.   10/17.    5/19
242.   - 245.       4/15.     7/17

The multi-phase I-95/Tpk connexion project is scheduled to have the I-95 through traffic work completed by the end of 2017.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on October 25, 2014, 03:22:56 PM
I think that the I-95 PTC interchange will be ready when our grandkids graduate  college lol.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 25, 2014, 05:08:13 PM
I agree about the arrows being over-sized, but I never really liked diagrammatics either.  Also, none of the NYSDOT arrow-per-lane installs I've seen (all in Region 4) have separate panels at the final sign before the split.  It's just arrow-per-lane all the way.

I will note that NYSTA installs (at least the ones in Buffalo section) do have separate panels at the split. Both of them (exits 53 and 55) involved creating an option lane and eliminating an added lane that began immediately before the exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 27, 2014, 11:05:03 AM
Note: The separate panel BGS erected closer to the interchange (& erected earlier) (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Plymouth+Meeting,+PA&aq=0&oq=plymouth+meeting,+PA&sll=40.002498,-75.118033&sspn=0.376076,0.602188&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Plymouth+Meeting,+Montgomery+County,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.119319,-75.280101&spn=0.000033,0.018818&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.119401,-75.280165&panoid=MmYQZgLLtSffuUQolZ4Odw&cbp=12,148.91,,0,16.62) does not do such.

I need to amend my comments about never seeing right-justify on standalone BGS - the new Clearview signage on the mainline Turnpike has right-justified Philadelphia and Chester as well, and this is a separate panel sign. I tried to get a picture, but I clearly need more practice (it is not worth posting what I got...)

(These signs replaced the left-over-from-PA 9 days of seeing two 476 Shields for the NE Extension)

= = =

Is there any rhyme or reason to the colors of the mono-tubes they have placed? It had seemed before they were either grouping an exit together, or part of the road, but it really seems like the new assemblies are somewhat random - brown, blue and red.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 27, 2014, 12:04:40 PM
I need to amend my comments about never seeing right-justify on standalone BGS - the new Clearview signage on the mainline Turnpike has right-justified Philadelphia and Chester as well, and this is a separate panel sign. I tried to get a picture, but I clearly need more practice (it is not worth posting what I got...)

(These signs replaced the left-over-from-PA 9 days of seeing two 476 Shields for the NE Extension)
The previous button-copy BGS (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Plymouth+Meeting,+PA&aq=0&oq=plymouth+meeting,+pa&sll=40.002498,-75.118033&sspn=0.376076,0.602188&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Plymouth+Meeting,+Montgomery+County,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.113748,-75.274222&spn=0.000016,0.009409&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.113755,-75.274312&panoid=hcnXHoQCGVpJcvvMoHNhqw&cbp=12,280.6,,0,12.21) for that left ramp split had the two destinations right-justified as well.  That one was probably one of the first BGS' I've seen in PA that used that approach.  Truth be told, the original panel only had the Chester destination listed but was replaced/modified with a larger panel containing both Philadelphia & Chester within the first 6 months of the Mid-County interchange fully opening in 1992.  Which was why the Philadelphia text is slightly smaller and more crowded than the Chester text. 

As I mentioned earlier, left or right-justified destination listings on the actual left-or-right-turn exit panel itself is not uncommon for many PennDOT or PTC signage.  Many of the exit BGS' along the Turnpike (even the pre-Clearview ones) have done such since the 90s/2000s.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 27, 2014, 01:04:39 PM
What always interested me in the older signs you linked was that Philadelphia always appeared to be an addition, the slat Philly was added on was a slightly different shade of green, and you could confirm the addition at the back of the sign.

I've seen many instances of left-justified signs, but did not readily recall right justifies.

In a somewhat-related note, I noted a lot of diagrammatic signs on the GS Parkway that justified text similar to the new southbound Extension signs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 27, 2014, 01:47:15 PM
What always interested me in the older signs you linked was that Philadelphia always appeared to be an addition, the slat Philly was added on was a slightly different shade of green, and you could confirm the addition at the back of the sign.
The Philadelphia additions to the southbound I-476 signs were in response to complaints from those heading south from Lansdale, Quakertown or Lehigh Valley that see a Philadelphia message at the entrance ramps and then are greeted with Chester, New Jersey, Harrisburg & Norristown (at the time) when approaching Mid-County & I-276.  Granted, the PTC rushed & did a half-*ssed job in placing the additional destination on the BGS' (the 2-mile advance BGS along I-276 westbound missed this edit); but, nonetheless, that's how it went down.

I'd be curious to know if there ever was a supplemental Philadelphia sign along the southbound Extension (then-PA 9) prior to the Mid County interchange being constructed?  The old Extension/E-W Turnpike interchange was simply a trumpet type.

I've seen many instances of left-justified signs, but did not readily recall right justifies.
That's because there are more right-lane exits than there are left-lane exits.

In a somewhat-related note, I noted a lot of diagrammatic signs on the GS Parkway that justified text similar to the new southbound Extension signs.
If it's the BGS I'm thinking of along the GSP (northbound approaching Exit 155P), such only involves a single-line destination listing, not a double-line destination listing.

The only other time, I've seen right-justified on a multi-line destination diagrammatic for the left ramp or through traffic was either when one line was only 2 to 3 letters shorter than the other and/or when one listing was replaced after the BGS was erected; such was the case for the Columbus Blvd. diagrammatic BGS' along I-95 South in Philly (the BGS' originally had Delaware Ave. or Avenue in the listing). 

In general & IMHO, when one text line is significantly shorter than the other (like the Philadelphia-Chester example for I-476 South); it's usually better to have the two destination lines center-justified with respect to each other.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 28, 2014, 02:55:19 PM
Ok, finally got some usable pictures from the new signs in this area.

New advance sign for the Mid-County/I-276 Interchange on I-476 South:

(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134106_zpswbxdzbxb.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134106_zpswbxdzbxb.jpg.html)

Close-up of the bottom of the diagram stem, showing lane drop (from 2 mile advance).

(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_1340060_zpszh4cyknr.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_1340060_zpszh4cyknr.jpg.html)

At the split:

(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134144_zpsoh3kqmjq.jpg)

===== MAINLINE PHOTOS =====

Exit 333 On-Ramp Split: (The over-staying-its-welcome PA 9 shield is removed (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1094528,-75.2888895,3a,75y,254.35h,106.35t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sf3kiI6DfzSlURqp21V7wXA!2e0))   
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_1304260_zpsmvzgx2da.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_1304260_zpsmvzgx2da.jpg.html)


I-276 East, Hope Lodge State Historic Site in Serif Font:
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130624_zpsyoemkbnn.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130624_zpsyoemkbnn.jpg.html)

I-276 East Exit 339, odd alignment for Ambler: (Not a new sign)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg.html)

I-276 West Exit Sequence Sign (Fixed out-of-order Norristown sequence) (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1309627,-75.2029216,3a,75y,250.84h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1st_TF9s4LbKbXy8LPcnXBBw!2e0)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131420_zps3fyclb3d.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131420_zps3fyclb3d.jpg.html)

I-276 West Exit 333/I-476 Advance (Replaces this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1206822,-75.2488737,3a,75y,245.07h,88.49t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGjusw3GaD41-mefo8qdIvQ!2e0) with the double I-476 shields)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131639_zpsccisufpt.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131639_zpsccisufpt.jpg.html)

I-276 West Approx 1/2 Mile from last gantry (note continued use of "This Lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.115654,-75.2635424,3a,75y,259.81h,73.04t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spgwiJhbCYU7ZKKXQXYL-OA!2e0)")
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131730_zpsh53zbbvk.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131730_zpsh53zbbvk.jpg.html)

I-276 West Ramps to Exit 20/I-476 North
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131805_zpsmtbcnv23.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131805_zpsmtbcnv23.jpg.html)


I-276 Exit 333 ALL CAPS exit signs (replaces  Mixed-Case Version) (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1098619,-75.2839088,3a,75y,97.69h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1ssGlLGzeNAq25KrymBq-qbA!2e0)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134351_zpslis1dwqs.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134351_zpslis1dwqs.jpg.html)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on October 28, 2014, 03:00:37 PM
At least it looks like PennDOT has got the memo on how to properly use Clearview (for the I-476 signs), but then I guess they lost it again on the mainline. The last sign IMO is pretty damn ugly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 28, 2014, 03:05:29 PM
I was very surprised to see the all-caps signs off Exit 333. You can't even point to in-kind replacement...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 28, 2014, 04:12:06 PM
Ok, finally got some usable pictures from the new signs in this area.

New advance sign for the Mid-County/I-276 Interchange on I-476 South:

(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134106_zpswbxdzbxb.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134106_zpswbxdzbxb.jpg.html)
Is it me or the 1 MILE notation should be more centered with respect to the stem of the arrow as opposed to the center of the signboard?  I didn't notice that when I saw that BGS a week-and-a-half ago.

At the split:
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134144_zpsoh3kqmjq.jpg)
I have to wonder if the I-276 West BGS was a complete replacement or just an alteration of the earlier-mounted BGS with the scrunched Series D numerals and the NEXT RIGHT text at the bottom?  My guess would be the latter.

===== MAINLINE PHOTOS =====

Exit 333 On-Ramp Split: (The over-staying-its-welcome PA 9 shield is removed (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1094528,-75.2888895,3a,75y,254.35h,106.35t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sf3kiI6DfzSlURqp21V7wXA!2e0))
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_1304260_zpsmvzgx2da.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_1304260_zpsmvzgx2da.jpg.html)
At Last!  The misleading I-76 West message that's been there for over 20 years has finally been corrected with the more proper & consistent I-276 West message.  Also, I-276 shields in the proper Series C font.  BTW, the Clearview font for the lower-case lettering is a clear give-away that both BGS panels are brand new.  When that pipe gantry was first erected a few years ago, the older early 90s-vintage BGS' were simply transferred onto the newer gantry.

Kudos for the proper Series C numerals for all I-shields; rebuke for using Clearview for the all-caps cardinals.  Also, the Allentown & New Jersey listings should be center-justified with respect to each other like it was on the BGS it replaced.

Given the extra length of bare posts; I would've either slid the panels higher and/or sawed off the excess posts.  Such seems to be a common PTC & PennDOT thing as of late w/overhead BGS installations.

I-276 East, Hope Lodge State Historic Site in Serif Font:
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130624_zpsyoemkbnn.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130624_zpsyoemkbnn.jpg.html)
That's an interesting font.

I-276 East Exit 339, odd alignment for Ambler: (Not a new sign)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg.html)
One has to wonder whether a different northbound 309 destination was originally selected but Ambler was an 11th-hour change?  Since I never saw the predecessor (pre-1980s) BGS' for the I-276 stretch; I can't be 100% sure of this.

I-276 West Exit Sequence Sign (Fixed out-of-order Norristown sequence) (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1309627,-75.2029216,3a,75y,250.84h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1st_TF9s4LbKbXy8LPcnXBBw!2e0)(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131420_zps3fyclb3d.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131420_zps3fyclb3d.jpg.html)
I'm guessing that whoever designed the BGS' along I-276 is not the same one who designed the BGS' along I-476.  The former apparently didn't get the memo regarding the restricted use of the Clearview font.  Man, just when one thought that the PTC finally got it right; one sees this.

I-276 West Exit 333/I-476 Advance (Replaces this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1206822,-75.2488737,3a,75y,245.07h,88.49t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGjusw3GaD41-mefo8qdIvQ!2e0) with the double I-476 shields)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131639_zpsccisufpt.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131639_zpsccisufpt.jpg.html)
The Clearview all-caps & numerals aside, I'm extremely surprised that Philadelphia is not included in this BGS like it was on its predecessor BGS; given the static PTC received for not originally including it 22 years ago (yes, the previous BGS was that old).

I-276 West Approx 1/2 Mile from last gantry (note continued use of "This Lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.115654,-75.2635424,3a,75y,259.81h,73.04t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spgwiJhbCYU7ZKKXQXYL-OA!2e0)")
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131730_zpsh53zbbvk.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131730_zpsh53zbbvk.jpg.html)
Is it me or are the size of those destination lettering larger than the ones at the Exit 333 toll plaza?  Use the I-276 West BGS' for visual comparison.

I-276 West Ramps to Exit 20/I-476 North
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131805_zpsmtbcnv23.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131805_zpsmtbcnv23.jpg.html)
Fail on several levels:

1.  The Philadelphia/Chester text should be center-justified (remember, the previous BGS was altered to include Philadelphia, that's why it looked sloppy).

2.  I didn't comment on such for its predecessor BGS but I will comment on it now for the new one: the EXIT 20 tab should be mounted on the left top of the panel, since it's a left lane turn/exit.

3.  The fore-mentioned non-conforming uses of the Clearview font (caps, numerals).

4.  Either the destination font (& Northeast Extension label) needs to a shorter height or the I-476 shields need to be larger.  See the earlier-posted diagrammatic BGS for the proper shield and font proportions.

I-276 Exit 333 ALL CAPS exit signs (replaces  Mixed-Case Version) (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1098619,-75.2839088,3a,75y,97.69h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1ssGlLGzeNAq25KrymBq-qbA!2e0)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134351_zpslis1dwqs.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_134351_zpslis1dwqs.jpg.html)
Ugh!  WHY?????  :banghead: 
The I-476 shield needs to be bigger as well.

Since KEEP RIGHT is now used instead of NEXT RIGHT for the I-476 South message; I would've used KEEP LEFT instead of the downward arrow for the Plymouth Rd. BGS.  There's certainly enough room for that message.

At least it looks like PennDOT has got the memo on how to properly use Clearview (for the I-476 signs), but then I guess they lost it again on the mainline. The last sign IMO is pretty damn ugly.
The signs are PTC not PennDOT.  Although, the original Plymouth Rd. & SOUTH 476 BGS' were probably PennDOT spec'd; the new ones are definitely PTC given the colored pipe gantry.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 28, 2014, 04:46:47 PM
The legends of all the I-276 overhead signs seems much larger than the legend at the Exit 333-split or the 476 BGS examples...

With the Ambler destination, I wonder if that was original and Philly was added?

Also, didn't notice until now, the split at Exit 333 no longer shows exit numbers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on October 28, 2014, 08:47:13 PM
I-276 East Exit 339, odd alignment for Ambler: (Not a new sign)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg.html)
One has to wonder whether a different northbound 309 destination was originally selected but Ambler was an 11th-hour change?  Since I never saw the predecessor (pre-1980s) BGS' for the I-276 stretch; I can't be 100% sure of this.
it's been Ambler forever. everything's center-aligned except for "Philadelphia."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 29, 2014, 08:19:55 AM
I-276 East Exit 339, odd alignment for Ambler: (Not a new sign)
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_130906_zps8jxy8zjp.jpg.html)
One has to wonder whether a different northbound 309 destination was originally selected but Ambler was an 11th-hour change?  Since I never saw the predecessor (pre-1980s) BGS' for the I-276 stretch; I can't be 100% sure of this.
it's been Ambler forever. everything's center-aligned except for "Philadelphia."
Fair enough, but given that this BGS is an actual exit BGS (as opposed to an advance BGS); Ambler should have been center-justified with respect to the Philadelphia listing and not the signboard itself.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on October 29, 2014, 09:10:01 AM
]it's been Ambler forever. everything's center-aligned except for "Philadelphia."
Fair enough, but given that this BGS is an actual exit BGS (as opposed to an advance BGS); Ambler should have been center-justified with respect to the Philadelphia listing and not the signboard itself.
not going to argue that it's ugly as hell. i'd prefer that the alignment for both "Ambler" and the 309 shield should be centered with respect to "Philadelphia."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 29, 2014, 09:52:27 AM
The signs are PTC not PennDOT.  Although, the original Plymouth Rd. & SOUTH 476 BGS' were probably PennDOT spec'd; the new ones are definitely PTC given the colored pipe gantry.

I agree these are PTC signs, but it appears that PennDOT did play around with Pipes recently (July 2011 Streetview shows the old signs) on US 202 in West Chester (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9761482,-75.5853334,3a,75y,122.94h,84.76t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s6oazE3luZWZY9cc3DKjEVg!2e0). Newer US 202 works in Malvern/Great Valley area use traditional PennDOT supports. Not sure if it was  test, mistake, or something simply done for the hell of it. At least it's not all caps.

Speaking of:
Quote
Since KEEP RIGHT is now used instead of NEXT RIGHT for the I-476 South message; I would've used KEEP LEFT instead of the downward arrow for the Plymouth Rd. BGS.  There's certainly enough room for that message.

Agreed. Next Right also made much more sense, given that  there is no lane to keep right in (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1100384,-75.2828239,3a,75y,78.39h,72.06t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAFG2QH8RrizSn0oGV0jVBw!2e0).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on October 29, 2014, 10:14:23 AM
the new overhead on I-95S at exit 30 (PA-73/Cottman Ave) uses a curved pipe, so PennDOT is definitely not opposed to using them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 29, 2014, 12:42:16 PM
I agree these are PTC signs, but it appears that PennDOT did play around with Pipes recently (July 2011 Streetview shows the old signs) on US 202 in West Chester (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9761482,-75.5853334,3a,75y,122.94h,84.76t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s6oazE3luZWZY9cc3DKjEVg!2e0). Newer US 202 works in Malvern/Great Valley area use traditional PennDOT supports. Not sure if it was  test, mistake, or something simply done for the hell of it.
It's possible that PennDOT may be trying/experimenting w/such.

Speaking of:
Quote
Since KEEP RIGHT is now used instead of NEXT RIGHT for the I-476 South message; I would've used KEEP LEFT instead of the downward arrow for the Plymouth Rd. BGS.  There's certainly enough room for that message.

Agreed. Next Right also made much more sense, given that  there is no lane to keep right in (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1100384,-75.2828239,3a,75y,78.39h,72.06t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAFG2QH8RrizSn0oGV0jVBw!2e0).
Personally, and I felt this way even with the previous signage, the gantry should be placed closer to the split and the BGS for I-476 South should be an exit-style sign with an angled right-arrow.  With that in mind, I'd place ground-mounted BGS for the advance movements; maybe even a simple diagrammatic since the lane splits in two, MUTCD be damned.

Truth be told, signage for the entire Norristown interchange should be completely rethought IMHO.  While the current BGS with the redundant Norristown notations (one for the interchange/toll plaza name, the other for the destination) was fine pre-476 South & Plymouth Road connector (the ramps used to split for Germantown Pike east & westbound); but given the ramp connections/alterations done 22 years ago, using Norristown as a Germantown Pike destination no longer makes sense.  As mentioned earlier, one can now use I-476 South to Ridge Pike (Exit 18) as a means to get to the Borough of Norristown (Germantown Pike doesn't even touch the Norristown border).

For the Exit 333 BGS' along I-276 Westbound, I would use Plymouth Mtg. as the destination but keep the Norristown toll plaza name.  For Exit 333 BGS' along I-276 Eastbound, I would include (TO) 476 SOUTH & even Chester along with Plymouth Mtg. 

Yes, I'm aware that the Exit 326/Valley Forge BGS' along the eastbound Turnpike include I-476 shields (such were erected prior to 476 connecting to the Turnpike); I would move those to a supplemental BGS and include both Exit 326 & 333 as options for I-476 and place US 422 shields on the main BGS' similar to what was recently done on the westbound BGS'.

For the BGS' beyond the toll plaza, I would use Plymouth Mtg. for the Plymouth Road BGS and keep the 476 SOUTH Chester BGS message basically in tact.

the new overhead on I-95S at exit 30 (PA-73/Cottman Ave) uses a curved pipe, so PennDOT is definitely not opposed to using them.
It's interesting that the curved pipe used for that gantry is not painted.  Also, it's the only BGS for that interchange that doesn't include the Rhawn St. listing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on October 29, 2014, 02:46:22 PM
Damn, the sign bugs me wasn't shown.  There is a new overhead sign on 276 West right at the 476 interchange that suggests traffic going to 476 South (Blue Route) to "Use this lane" and has an arrow pointing straight down into the outer most through lane.  (the fourth lane is an exit only lane they want isolated for traffic towards the NE Extension)  What gets me is the sign placement though, it is RIGHT at the point where Southbound traffic would have leave 276West to the right.  It is bound to trick tons of out of town travellers into staying in that third lane instead of exiting.  If that was the last thing I saw before an exit, it would sure fill me with doubt if I didn't know the area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on October 29, 2014, 02:59:18 PM
Damn, the sign bugs me wasn't shown.  There is a new overhead sign on 276 West right at the 476 interchange that suggests traffic going to 476 South (Blue Route) to "Use this lane" and has an arrow pointing straight down into the outer most through lane.  (the fourth lane is an exit only lane they want isolated for traffic towards the NE Extension)  What gets me is the sign placement though, it is RIGHT at the point where Southbound traffic would have leave 276West to the right.  It is bound to trick tons of out of town travellers into staying in that third lane instead of exiting.  If that was the last thing I saw before an exit, it would sure fill me with doubt if I didn't know the area.
Do you mean this sign:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.113957,-75.270746&spn=0.000008,0.005472&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.114002,-75.271535&panoid=ShuYv1VIyfrwLIydSbqGqA&cbp=12,254.68,,0,-5.07 (https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.113957,-75.270746&spn=0.000008,0.005472&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.114002,-75.271535&panoid=ShuYv1VIyfrwLIydSbqGqA&cbp=12,254.68,,0,-5.07)
Does the arrow under "Chester" now point down instead of indicating the exit to the right?  Regardless, I think this sign could do without the "This Lane" to avoid that type of confusion, since the far right lane is clearly marked as an exit only for the NE Extension.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 29, 2014, 03:50:55 PM
Damn, the sign bugs me wasn't shown.
That's likely because that particular BGS assembly wasn't replaced just yet.  Most of the comments recently posted were directed towards the new replacement signs.

Does the arrow under "Chester" now point down instead of indicating the exit to the right?  Regardless, I think this sign could do without the "This Lane" to avoid that type of confusion, since the far right lane is clearly marked as an exit only for the NE Extension.
Part of the problem here is that it's a shared lane for both I-276 West & I-476 South traffic.  IMHO, this could be one case where either APL signage or diagrammatics are warranted.

Before the mile-based renumber, it was actually numbered as a mainline I-276 exit, 25A. In fact, wouldn't it make more sense to have Exit 20 A/B be for the exit-to-mainline movements?
I meant to chime on this earlier.  I absolutely agree with you that the I-276 ramps from I-476 South should be assigned as Exits 20B-A and had it not been for the existence of toll plazas/gantries the ramps from I-476 to I-276 would've been signed as Exit 20 (Northbound, current Exits 19-20 would be redesignated as 19A-B)/20B-A (Southbound).  The ramps to I-476 from I-276 would've been signed as Exit 334 (Eastbound) and possibly 334B-A (Westbound).

Unfortunately, the toll plazas exist.  Had PTC signed Mid-County as Exit 334, it would've given heartburn for the 476 southbounders.  The current Exit 20 is hidden until one gets to the actual ramp off I-276 Westbound.  The reason why the PTC went with Exit 20 for Mid-County was probably because they thought that most of the traffic going through that plaza would be from the NE Extension and the fact that there's no direct ramp from I-276 East to Mid-County (one can use the preceeding Norristown exit to get to I-476 South).

Kind of a Damned if one does, damned if one doesn't situation.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 29, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Damn, the sign bugs me wasn't shown.  There is a new overhead sign on 276 West right at the 476 interchange that suggests traffic going to 476 South (Blue Route) to "Use this lane" and has an arrow pointing straight down into the outer most through lane.  (the fourth lane is an exit only lane they want isolated for traffic towards the NE Extension)  What gets me is the sign placement though, it is RIGHT at the point where Southbound traffic would have leave 276West to the right.  It is bound to trick tons of out of town travellers into staying in that third lane instead of exiting.  If that was the last thing I saw before an exit, it would sure fill me with doubt if I didn't know the area.

This one? Sorry, I had it, just didn't post it...

(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131757_zpsfgk4h6wj.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131757_zpsfgk4h6wj.jpg.html)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 29, 2014, 06:31:26 PM
Kind of a Damned if one does, damned if one doesn't situation.

Indeed, and since you are exiting the Turnpike, it makes sense in the Turnpike's Universe. Probably could have satisfied more OCD if all ramps had exit numbers, but that may also had added to confusion. Of course, PennDOT uses exit numbers for Interstate-to-Interstate connections, so...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 29, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
It's the same as the assembly it replaced and just as confusing. That right there is a perfect spot for an APL. 2 right lanes for I-476, 3 left for I-276 with one of those being an option lane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on October 30, 2014, 10:22:55 AM
This one? Sorry, I had it, just didn't post it...
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah180/flyer_78/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131757_zpsfgk4h6wj.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/flyer_78/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141028_131757_zpsfgk4h6wj.jpg.html)
That's the one.  Great shot, but boy that sign is going to get some people exiting late if they see the one just up the ramp showing the split between 476 South & 476 North. (just in frame) 
I didn't like the earlier version particularly either, but this sign and pavement markings just add unnecessary confusion.. 
A shame they couldn't widen the approach to add another full exit only lane with the NE Extention expansion project..
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 30, 2014, 10:53:46 AM
A shame they couldn't widen the approach to add another full exit only lane with the NE Extention expansion project..
IMHO, PTC should've widened it (for another full exit lane) when the Mid-County plaza and the I-476 connection was built 22 years ago.

So it looks like the only reference to Philadelphia for Mid-County (I-476 South) off I-276 West is at the last split; unless a supplemental EXIT 20 Philadelphia or equivalent is planned but not yet erected.  IMHO, the Philly reference is more important for those traveling south on the NE Extension (I-476) than it is for those traveling west on the E-W Turnpike (I-276).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 30, 2014, 11:18:01 AM
I was looking back through various Historic Aerials (http://www.historicaerials.com/api/img-server.php?op=fetchHistoricPhotograph&width=200&height=200&year=1992&bbox=-75.2769940833512,40.1104829) (linking to 1992, within a year of Mid-County's opening, you can go back to the '70s to see the old NE Extension Trumpet), was curious if before the three-lane widening through to Valley Forge was completed if they might have signed both right lanes as Exit Only... however it is quite clear that even in 1992 three lanes continued through to Norristown exit 333 (old 25).

The older sign at least had a slanted-arrow, giving some indication a right-hand movement is needed. Widening the exit here would be ideal.

A nice change as a result of the Extension widening is that a merge is no longer needed to join I-476 North, which has already improved traffic flow through in this area. Eastbound to Northbound traffic still must merge...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 30, 2014, 12:37:11 PM
The 1971 aerial looks to show the westbound Turnpike at 3 lanes (for a short distance) approaching the NE Extension interchange with the right lane veering off (no shared lane(s) involved).

My guess is that between the time that the Turnpike was widened (which was done during the 1980s) but prior to the 1992 alterations for Mid-County & I-476; the off-ramp to the northbound Extension was probably still only a single lane ramp and may have not involved a shared lane with the through-traffic.

At the very latest, the westbound shared lane condition dates back to the 1992 alterations.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 02, 2014, 09:15:16 PM
After the impromptu N.J. Turnpike meet to look at the new lanes between a point south of Exit 6 and 8A, we (two friends from AAROADS and myself) headed south via the N.J. Turnpike, then west via the N.J. Turnpike's Pennsylvania Turnpike Extension, across the Delaware River, and past the point where the E-W Mainline of the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-276) passes under I-95.  There was some construction work going on adjacent to the westbound lanes of I-276 prior to I-95, but not much else. 

The location of the new eastern end of the Turnpike's ticket system was pretty obvious (west of I-95) and two new overpasses have been (re)built over I-276.

We exited the Turnpike at U.S. 1, headed north to the Delaware Expressway (I-95), and headed south toward the span that carries I-95 over I-276.  There was no obvious work going on along I-95.

Rhetorical question - why is it that the N.J. Turnpike Authority was able to plan, engineer and complete a massive widening of their turnpike in much less time than the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and PennDOT are taking to build part of a (relatively) simple interchange?

And of course, PTC has delayed most of the ramps between the E-W Mainline and the Delaware Expressway until well into the future.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DeaconG on November 02, 2014, 09:30:17 PM
After the impromptu N.J. Turnpike meet to look at the new lanes between a point south of Exit 6 and 8A, we (two friends from AAROADS and myself) headed south via the N.J. Turnpike, then west via the N.J. Turnpike's Pennsylvania Turnpike Extension, across the Delaware River, and past the point where the E-W Mainline of the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-276) passes under I-95.  There was some construction work going on adjacent to the westbound lanes of I-276 prior to I-95, but not much else. 

The location of the new eastern end of the Turnpike's ticket system was pretty obvious (west of I-95) and two new overpasses have been (re)built over I-276.

We exited the Turnpike at U.S. 1, headed north to the Delaware Expressway (I-95), and headed south toward the span that carries I-95 over I-276.  There was no obvious work going on along I-95.

Rhetorical question - why is it that the N.J. Turnpike Authority was able to plan, engineer and complete a massive widening of their turnpike in much less time than the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and PennDOT are taking to build part of a (relatively) simple interchange?

And of course, PTC has delayed most of the ramps between the E-W Mainline and the Delaware Expressway until well into the future.

Act 44 might have something to do with it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on November 03, 2014, 09:27:41 AM
PennDOT has no cash.

also, unlike the Schuylkill, nobody refers to I-95 as the Delaware Expressway. It's just 95 or I-95.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on November 03, 2014, 10:15:17 AM
also, unlike the Schuylkill, nobody refers to I-95 as the Delaware Expressway. It's just 95 or I-95.

I've never heard anyone in the tri-state area (including PA) use "I-" before the Interstate number. It is always just the number, or occasionally (usually with US or State routes) "Route XX".

Rhetorical question - why is it that the N.J. Turnpike Authority was able to plan, engineer and complete a massive widening of their turnpike in much less time than the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and PennDOT are taking to build part of a (relatively) simple interchange?

This is the exact reason I refuse to believe that it'll be done before the year 2020. What would really be interesting is if because of how long Pennsylvania is taking to build the interchange, I-95 was rerouted to avoid PA and Philadelphia, instead heading up the Delaware Memorial Bridge and assuming the entire length of the New Jersey Turnpike. Highly unlikely, but it would be amusing to see that happen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DeaconG on November 03, 2014, 11:16:15 AM
PennDOT has no cash.

also, unlike the Schuylkill, nobody refers to I-95 as the Delaware Expressway. It's just 95 or I-95.

They're using the money from the Turnpike to keep the Philly and Pittsburgh transit systems afloat. Act 44.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 03, 2014, 01:03:16 PM
also, unlike the Schuylkill, nobody refers to I-95 as the Delaware Expressway. It's just 95 or I-95.

I've never heard anyone in the tri-state area (including PA) use "I-" before the Interstate number. It is always just the number, or occasionally (usually with US or State routes) "Route XX".

Rhetorical question - why is it that the N.J. Turnpike Authority was able to plan, engineer and complete a massive widening of their turnpike in much less time than the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and PennDOT are taking to build part of a (relatively) simple interchange?

This is the exact reason I refuse to believe that it'll be done before the year 2020. What would really be interesting is if because of how long Pennsylvania is taking to build the interchange, I-95 was rerouted to avoid PA and Philadelphia, instead heading up the Delaware Memorial Bridge and assuming the entire length of the New Jersey Turnpike. Highly unlikely, but it would be amusing to see that happen.

If they haven't done it in the 1980's, or 1990's, or 2000's, or the first 5 years of the 2010's, they're not going to do it when they've already started constructing the interchange for the I-95 connection.

PennDOT has no cash.

also, unlike the Schuylkill, nobody refers to I-95 as the Delaware Expressway. It's just 95 or I-95.

They're using the money from the Turnpike to keep the Philly and Pittsburgh transit systems afloat. Act 44.

Some, but not all of the reason.  The PA Turnpike has numerous other projects going on, many of which have started in the past few years, and many of which would appear to be much lower in priority than a connection between 2 high-volume highways.  Hell, you can barely drive 30 miles without hitting another construction zone.   They have also raised tolls to help cover the costs of Act 44. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on November 03, 2014, 01:14:55 PM
IMO the PTC should have prioritized this project instead of building a bunch of freeways around Pittsburgh.  So there's one reason why it's not moving: Pennsylvania is, quite frankly, not interested in it in the slightest.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 03, 2014, 01:24:10 PM
They have also raised tolls to help cover the costs of Act 44.
Act 44 was what triggered these now-annual toll increases in the first place.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 03, 2014, 01:51:20 PM
They have also raised tolls to help cover the costs of Act 44.
Act 44 was what triggered these now-annual toll increases in the first place.

Right.  So how much money is that bringing in...is it covering the Act 44 payments, and if so, then what happened to the money that the Turnpike was already making that should've covered this project in the first place?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 03, 2014, 03:48:57 PM
Act 44 might have something to do with it.

Act 44 has a lot to do with it, but the PTC's inept setting of priorities has (IMO) more to do with it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 03, 2014, 03:50:18 PM
PennDOT has no cash.

also, unlike the Schuylkill, nobody refers to I-95 as the Delaware Expressway. It's just 95 or I-95.

I used the names Delaware Expressway and E-W Mainline of the Pennsylvania Turnpike only because I wanted things to be clear to the readers, given that (at some point) there will be changes in route numbers here.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 03, 2014, 03:55:22 PM
They have also raised tolls to help cover the costs of Act 44.
Act 44 was what triggered these now-annual toll increases in the first place.

Right.  So how much money is that bringing in...is it covering the Act 44 payments, and if so, then what happened to the money that the Turnpike was already making that should've covered this project in the first place?

The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is still hemorrhaging money thanks to Act 44.

It would not have been had the state been able to hand-over I-80 to the PTC, but the federal government's Pilot Tolling Program (which has had no takers) wisely does not allow the imposition of tolls on a (currently free) freeway in order to fund the wages and benefits of militantly unionized transit workers hundreds of miles away (mostly in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, with some money going to smaller transit systems around the state) and to fund PennDOT projects that have nothing to do with the Turnpike. 

But as I understand it, PTC is still required to make massive Act 44 payments to PennDOT, even though it is not (and never will be) collecting a dime in tolls from I-80 users.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on November 03, 2014, 05:05:43 PM
The Pa transportation bill eliminiated the Act 44 contribution and provided for a multi year payback to the PTC for funds already taken.  This has allowed for the PTC to resume the 22 to 79 section of the Southern Beltway in Pittsburgh, the MP 128 to 138 (?) reconstruction of the mainline, the Allegheny tunnel Bypass study, and has advanced to final design the mainline work for 376 to 28, and the Warrendale plaza to 79/19 and this was just with this years reimbursement, I expect many more projects to advance or start within the next 12 months.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DeaconG on November 03, 2014, 06:33:38 PM
The Pa transportation bill eliminiated the Act 44 contribution and provided for a multi year payback to the PTC for funds already taken.  This has allowed for the PTC to resume the 22 to 79 section of the Southern Beltway in Pittsburgh, the MP 128 to 138 (?) reconstruction of the mainline, the Allegheny tunnel Bypass study, and has advanced to final design the mainline work for 376 to 28, and the Warrendale plaza to 79/19 and this was just with this years reimbursement, I expect many more projects to advance or start within the next 12 months.

Excellent...now can someone kick PennDOT in the ass to get that I-95 interchange done before we all grow old and die?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on November 03, 2014, 09:59:14 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if the PTC is deliberately dragging their feet re: the I-95 interchange for the simple reason that they still don't really want it for the same reasons they didn't build it when I-95 was built. They are afraid of losing toll revenue......... It always comes down to money.......
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on November 04, 2014, 08:28:32 AM
The PA Turnpike-I-95 connection project was in turtle mode long, lo-o-o-ong before Act 44 was ever thought of. I was a member of  the CAC (Community Advisory Committee) for this project back in 1993. Act 44 came and went; the pace of this project was glacial before, during, and after its reign.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 04, 2014, 08:43:35 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if the PTC is deliberately dragging their feet re: the I-95 interchange for the simple reason that they still don't really want it for the same reasons they didn't build it when I-95 was built. They are afraid of losing toll revenue......... It always comes down to money.......

That does not make much sense.  If anything, drivers that will mindlessly be able to follow the I-95 shields up and down the East Coast once part of the Bristol Township project is done will result in more (not less) revenue-paying traffic on the eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's E-W Mainline.  Of course, this (newly renumbered) section of I-95 will become the only four-lane section of the road between Petersburg, Va. and Connecticut (with the exception of a few ramps that carry I-95 in Maryland and Virginia, and through Wilmington, Delaware, where six-lane I-495 is a nearly perfect bypass of the four lane segment.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 04, 2014, 08:45:13 AM
The Pa transportation bill eliminiated the Act 44 contribution and provided for a multi year payback to the PTC for funds already taken.  This has allowed for the PTC to resume the 22 to 79 section of the Southern Beltway in Pittsburgh, the MP 128 to 138 (?) reconstruction of the mainline, the Allegheny tunnel Bypass study, and has advanced to final design the mainline work for 376 to 28, and the Warrendale plaza to 79/19 and this was just with this years reimbursement, I expect many more projects to advance or start within the next 12 months.

All of Act 44 has been killed?  Is former State Senator Vince Fumo (the architect of Act 44) still in federal prison? 

Thank you for sharing that news.

Still, as others have pointed out, this is not likely to speed-up the Bristol Township interchange project at all.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 04, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
The PA Turnpike-I-95 connection project was in turtle mode long, lo-o-o-ong before Act 44 was ever thought of. I was a member of  the CAC (Community Advisory Committee) for this project back in 1993. Act 44 came and went; the pace of this project was glacial before, during, and after its reign.

I realize it was not the PTC's fault that the Somerset Expressway in New Jersey was NIMBY'ed to death. 

But that history was written long ago, and it was always inexcusable that there was no interchange between the E-W Mainline of the Turnpike and the Delaware Expressway, with (or without) the Somerset Expressway being built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 04, 2014, 10:28:38 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if the PTC is deliberately dragging their feet re: the I-95 interchange for the simple reason that they still don't really want it for the same reasons they didn't build it when I-95 was built. They are afraid of losing toll revenue......... It always comes down to money.......

That does not make much sense.  If anything, drivers that will mindlessly be able to follow the I-95 shields up and down the East Coast once part of the Bristol Township project is done will result in more (not less) revenue-paying traffic on the eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's E-W Mainline.  Of course, this (newly renumbered) section of I-95 will become the only four-lane section of the road between Petersburg, Va. and Connecticut (with the exception of a few ramps that carry I-95 in Maryland and Virginia, and through Wilmington, Delaware, where six-lane I-495 is a nearly perfect bypass of the four lane segment.

Current day 95 is only 4 lanes north of 413 to the Scudders Falls Bridge, and I don't think the short stretch of 95 between 413 & the PA Turnpike will be widened to 6 lanes as part of this project.

I thought the PA Turnpike was to be widened from 95 to the PA-NJ Turnpike Bridge, and eventually the bridge will be dualized as well to price 3 lanes per direction. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on November 04, 2014, 10:36:11 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if the PTC is deliberately dragging their feet re: the I-95 interchange for the simple reason that they still don't really want it for the same reasons they didn't build it when I-95 was built. They are afraid of losing toll revenue......... It always comes down to money.......

That does not make much sense.  If anything, drivers that will mindlessly be able to follow the I-95 shields up and down the East Coast once part of the Bristol Township project is done will result in more (not less) revenue-paying traffic on the eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's E-W Mainline.  Of course, this (newly renumbered) section of I-95 will become the only four-lane section of the road between Petersburg, Va. and Connecticut (with the exception of a few ramps that carry I-95 in Maryland and Virginia, and through Wilmington, Delaware, where six-lane I-495 is a nearly perfect bypass of the four lane segment.

Current day 95 is only 4 lanes north of 413 to the Scudders Falls Bridge, and I don't think the short stretch of 95 between 413 & the PA Turnpike will be widened to 6 lanes as part of this project.

I thought the PA Turnpike was to be widened from 95 to the PA-NJ Turnpike Bridge, and eventually the bridge will be dualized as well to price 3 lanes per direction.

The Turnpike will be widened and so will the bridge. They might lose toll revenue because the ticket system would end west of I-95 and the WB-only bridge tolls are shared with NJTA, but you'd think that the increase in volume a direct connection would bring could offset the lack of tolls at US 13.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on November 04, 2014, 10:56:23 AM
Current day 95 is only 4 lanes north of 413 to the Scudders Falls Bridge, and I don't think the short stretch of 95 between 413 & the PA Turnpike will be widened to 6 lanes as part of this project.
It looks like from the rendering on the website that it will be 2 lanes through the 413 interchange from the NB exit ramp to the NB on-ramp, with 3 lanes continuing to the split for the Turnpike / Future 95N.  The 3D Animation NB doesn't show lane markings on the right, but it looks like 3 lanes through here, and the overhead BGS indicates this as well.
Quote
I thought the PA Turnpike was to be widened from 95 to the PA-NJ Turnpike Bridge, and eventually the bridge will be dualized as well to price 3 lanes per direction.
The mapping on the website shows this widening as well, with the temporary drop to 2 lanes at the US 13 interchange until the second bridge is built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on November 04, 2014, 11:54:33 AM
The Third Lane project on the Ohio Turnpike between Youngstown and Toledo was supposed to be completed in 2000 but is now scheduled to be completed later this month
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on November 04, 2014, 12:52:39 PM
It will be widened.  Who knows if the bridge will be though.  The project is split into phases:
-Phase 1: Turnpike widening, new toll barrier (honestly, at this point they might as well just not bother), I-95 flyovers (scheduled to be completed this decade)
-Phase 2: the rest of the interchange (unfunded, scheduled for next decade)
-Phase 3: building the second bridge (unfunded, not yet scheduled at all)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DeaconG on November 04, 2014, 03:36:36 PM
It will be widened.  Who knows if the bridge will be though.  The project is split into phases:
-Phase 1: Turnpike widening, new toll barrier (honestly, at this point they might as well just not bother), I-95 flyovers (scheduled to be completed this decade)
-Phase 2: the rest of the interchange (unfunded, scheduled for next decade)
-Phase 3: building the second bridge (unfunded, not yet scheduled at all)

Why do I have the feeling we'll be discussing this in the "aaroads.com topics in 2064" IN 2064?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 04, 2014, 03:48:57 PM
The Pa transportation bill eliminiated the Act 44 contribution and provided for a multi year payback to the PTC for funds already taken.  This has allowed for the PTC to resume the 22 to 79 section of the Southern Beltway in Pittsburgh, the MP 128 to 138 (?) reconstruction of the mainline, the Allegheny tunnel Bypass study, and has advanced to final design the mainline work for 376 to 28, and the Warrendale plaza to 79/19 and this was just with this years reimbursement, I expect many more projects to advance or start within the next 12 months.

All of Act 44 has been killed?  Is former State Senator Vince Fumo (the architect of Act 44) still in federal prison?
I don't believe that the recently-passed transportation bill killed off Act 44.  All it did was just reduce the number of times (or percentages) of toll increases.  We'll know come early 2015; the recent toll increases have been occurring every January.

BTW, Fumo has since been released from federal prison and is now under "house arrest".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on November 04, 2014, 06:21:56 PM
Did not find a reference to this on here but: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/09/pennsylvania_turnpike_will_clo_1.html the north midway service plaza is closed, i drove by it today, nothing but a pile of rubble with a foundation
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on November 04, 2014, 07:06:00 PM
I know they’d never do this, but I’d make a special trip to PA if the PTC would re-open the tunnel linking the two plazas while North Midway is closed for reconstruction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on November 04, 2014, 08:41:13 PM
It will be widened.  Who knows if the bridge will be though.  The project is split into phases:
-Phase 1: Turnpike widening, new toll barrier (honestly, at this point they might as well just not bother), I-95 flyovers (scheduled to be completed this decade)
-Phase 2: the rest of the interchange (unfunded, scheduled for next decade)
-Phase 3: building the second bridge (unfunded, not yet scheduled at all)
Second bridge holds a special place in my heart, because NJ Turnpike. PA was supposed to finish the I-95 connection by now, but they have barely begun. NJ Tpk. may warrant widenings south of Interchange 6, especially between 3-4. Will those be needed when the PA interchange opens, or will enough traffic siphon off? Or will so much traffic siphon off that the second bridge becomes necessary? Is there any situation where traffic balances so perfectly that no improvements are needed south of the GS Parkway at all?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 04, 2014, 10:51:49 PM
It will be widened.  Who knows if the bridge will be though.  The project is split into phases:
-Phase 1: Turnpike widening, new toll barrier (honestly, at this point they might as well just not bother), I-95 flyovers (scheduled to be completed this decade)
-Phase 2: the rest of the interchange (unfunded, scheduled for next decade)
-Phase 3: building the second bridge (unfunded, not yet scheduled at all)
Second bridge holds a special place in my heart, because NJ Turnpike. PA was supposed to finish the I-95 connection by now, but they have barely begun. NJ Tpk. may warrant widenings south of Interchange 6, especially between 3-4. Will those be needed when the PA interchange opens, or will enough traffic siphon off? Or will so much traffic siphon off that the second bridge becomes necessary? Is there any situation where traffic balances so perfectly that no improvements are needed south of the GS Parkway at all?

MTantillo had a sage comment the other day about this - in the past (in other Interstate corridors), many drivers would just follow the Interstate shields, which, of course, generally have not existed south of about the I-287/N.J. 440 [Exit 10] interchange on the N.J. Turnpike.  But now that class of drivers is (and will likely be) just following their GPS or smartphone navigation system, and those are likely to direct them (southbound) to stay on the N.J. Turnpike passing Exits 5 through 1 and across the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and not follow I-95 across the Delaware River to the E-W Mainline of the Pennsylvania Turnpike and then onto the Delaware Expressway. 

Northbound may be a different story, since the signs on the Delaware Turnpike headed for the I-95/I-295/I-495 split may well encourage at least some drivers to head north through Wilmington in the direction of the Delaware Expressway and Philadelphia, perhaps as a form of shunpiking, since there will (apparently) be no toll charged on the Pennsylvania Turnpike for the I-95 northbound movement, though I suspect that navigation systems will still encourage I-295 across the Delaware Memorial Bridge and then I-295 or the N.J. Turnpike.

Then there's the question of capacity on the E-W Mainline of the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the Delaware River—Turnpike Toll Bridge - only four lanes each way total (2 each direction), until some unspecified point in the future, so congestion there could be severe (and thus encourage drivers to stay with the N.J. Turnpike or perhaps I-295).

I have suggested in the past (and I repeat) that it is time for the N.J. Turnpike to do away with the silly "secret" N.J. 700 designation and sign the Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 as a 3DI, perhaps I-895. Turnpikes in states as diverse as Kansas and Pennsylvania have done this for many years.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on November 04, 2014, 11:31:33 PM
I have suggested in the past (and I repeat) that it is time for the N.J. Turnpike to do away with the silly "secret" N.J. 700 designation and sign the Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 as a 3DI, perhaps I-895. Turnpikes in states as diverse as Kansas and Pennsylvania have done this for many years.

Yet they aren't the only state with such a case. New York (part of Berkshire Spur and ~1 mile within Exit 24), Maine (I-495 is unsigned on the Falmouth Spur), and Florida keep "secret" designations for the parts that don't fit in the Interstate grid. The Creek Turnpike in Oklahoma doesn't have any designation I can find. Heck, the Berkshire Spur couldn't be I-487 if NYSTA wanted it until the Castleton Bridge gets a median barrier.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on November 05, 2014, 06:33:33 AM
I know they’d never do this, but I’d make a special trip to PA if the PTC would re-open the tunnel linking the two plazas while North Midway is closed for reconstruction.

It is more than just closed...it is gone, no more, it has ceased to be, it has expired, it is an ex plaza
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 05, 2014, 08:29:44 AM
I happened to stop by there the weekend it was shutting down. Here are the memories of a rather ordinary, small plaza...

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd144/roadnut/6C40E0B4-69FC-48CC-A1AE-E72129192907.jpg) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/roadnut/media/6C40E0B4-69FC-48CC-A1AE-E72129192907.jpg.html)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd144/roadnut/E43D0840-CF05-4FD9-A6C9-107BEE56761A_1.jpg) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/roadnut/media/E43D0840-CF05-4FD9-A6C9-107BEE56761A_1.jpg.html)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd144/roadnut/E2699B1A-2AB4-49E6-9FE7-3AD7E9A8D4EF_2.jpg) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/roadnut/media/E2699B1A-2AB4-49E6-9FE7-3AD7E9A8D4EF_2.jpg.html)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd144/roadnut/08EA0A96-63F3-4315-89DD-F58F63749649_1.jpg) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/roadnut/media/08EA0A96-63F3-4315-89DD-F58F63749649_1.jpg.html)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on November 05, 2014, 10:26:23 AM
North Midway was built later, i read that it originally was just a fuel stop and the tunnel was used to link the two sides together, so you could get food. Then they built the recently demolished building later.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on November 05, 2014, 10:43:46 AM
Wasn't the upstairs used for some sort of lodging at one point? I don't remember that because the first time I was on the Pennsylvania Turnpike was on a Boy Scout trip to Seven Springs when I was 11 years old, but I seem to recall reading that South Midway's upper level was used for some kind of lodging.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 05, 2014, 10:45:44 AM
North Midway was built later, i read that it originally was just a fuel stop and the tunnel was used to link the two sides together, so you could get food. Then they built the recently demolished building later.

By chance, we happened to stop at the original Midway on the way back.  It's literally one of the best, most historic service plaza buildings out there (with literally hundreds of interesting pictures to boot), then it was paired with a hillbilly shack on the other side of the roadway where you bump into each other just trying to get to the restrooms.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on November 05, 2014, 12:04:36 PM
Wasn't the upstairs used for some sort of lodging at one point?

I’ve read some articles and PTC brochures from the ’40s and early ’50s that mentioned there being “dormitories for truckers”  on South Midway's second floor. Unfortunately I’ve never seen photos of the setup as it was in those days or read anything that described the overnight accommodations in greater detail.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on November 05, 2014, 12:09:23 PM
My interpetation of "Dormitories for truckers" would mean the large open area up top would just have cots and maybe blankets for truckers. For some reason it sounds like that maybe it was used originally during construction to house people who were working, and then turned over for that use until it became a meeting room. Isn't South Midway being preserved? since it did just get an overhaul.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on November 05, 2014, 12:20:57 PM
Thanks. "Dormitories" makes me picture something like what I picture low-cost "hostels" to be (although I've never stayed at one). I couldn't find any photos either other than one showing the upstairs as more recently being set up as meeting space or perhaps as an employee breakroom.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on November 05, 2014, 12:26:04 PM
Midway North was originally just a small garage and entrance to the tunnel to Midway South which had on its second floor what the Turnpike called a "dormitory." In the age before sleeper cabs, truckers could pay to stay overnight. There were beds (with bedding) in an "open-bay" configuration and a communal bathroom/shower facility. The idea was that a second dormitory-type service plaza on the north side was unnecessary since truckers could simply access the dormitory at the south plaza through the tunnel.

With the development of the sleeper cab, though, use of the dormitory waned and the Turnpike eventually closed it. Don't know the year that happened.

In 2008, I went on a road trip with my then-9-year-old son. I was a PennDOT employee at the time and I arranged ahead of time (had to arrange for personal liability assumption and all that) for the two of us to tour the tunnel, dorm, and facilities which are not accessible to the public. The dorm is still much as it was when it was used, but without the beds; it's now used for storage. The tunnel is used by employees. It's in relatively good shape, but the paint has peeled a lot. The stairs in the north plaza had been removed and rebuilt in a slightly different location (now completely obliterated with the demolition of course). The stairs in the south plaza are in the same location, just not accessible by the public.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 05, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
Isn't South Midway being preserved? since it did just get an overhaul.

Yep.  The construction of North Midway has nothing to do with South Midway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on November 05, 2014, 12:58:55 PM
....

In 2008, I went on a road trip with my then-9-year-old son. I was a PennDOT employee at the time and I arranged ahead of time (had to arrange for personal liability assumption and all that) for the two of us to tour the tunnel, dorm, and facilities which are not accessible to the public. The dorm is still much as it was when it was used, but without the beds; it's now used for storage. The tunnel is used by employees. It's in relatively good shape, but the paint has peeled a lot. The stairs in the north plaza had been removed and rebuilt in a slightly different location (now completely obliterated with the demolition of course). The stairs in the south plaza are in the same location, just not accessible by the public.

Neat. Do you have any pictures you can share, or do they frown upon your posting that sort of thing?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on November 05, 2014, 01:39:09 PM
There are some photos here:
http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html (http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html)
I think this came up on another thread not too long ago, and someone had pointed to this page.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 05, 2014, 03:23:55 PM
I have suggested in the past (and I repeat) that it is time for the N.J. Turnpike to do away with the silly "secret" N.J. 700 designation and sign the Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 as a 3DI, perhaps I-895. Turnpikes in states as diverse as Kansas and Pennsylvania have done this for many years.

Yet they aren't the only state with such a case. New York (part of Berkshire Spur and ~1 mile within Exit 24), Maine (I-495 is unsigned on the Falmouth Spur), and Florida keep "secret" designations for the parts that don't fit in the Interstate grid. The Creek Turnpike in Oklahoma doesn't have any designation I can find. Heck, the Berkshire Spur couldn't be I-487 if NYSTA wanted it until the Castleton Bridge gets a median barrier.

I concede all of the above.  The difference here is that the N.J. Turnpike will be directing at least some motorists off its road when the signs read I-95 South, and having an I-895 shield for traffic headed south past Exits 5 to 1 might be a good idea.  With the exception of Florida's Turnpike, I believe the traffic volumes here are also higher than the other examples you cite - the Berkshire Section was nearly empty when I drove it from the MassPike to I-87 about a year ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 05, 2014, 03:42:56 PM
I have suggested in the past (and I repeat) that it is time for the N.J. Turnpike to do away with the silly "secret" N.J. 700 designation and sign the Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 as a 3DI, perhaps I-895. Turnpikes in states as diverse as Kansas and Pennsylvania have done this for many years.

FHWA has objected to such in the past for the following reason (note: this was written several years ago):

Quote from: Steve Anderson's NYCRoads Website
The most serious Federal problem is that the southern part of the New Jersey Turnpike is not presently on the Interstate System and must not carry an Interstate number. The state of New Jersey would have to be sure that all features are up to current standards, agree to operating requirements for Interstates, and submit a request to the FHWA that it be designated an Interstate. The state has not been persuaded so far that it would be worth it.

Source for above-quote (http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/)

Nonetheless, there's no reason why the NJTA can't actually sign & designate the lower Turnpike as State Route 695 or 895.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on November 05, 2014, 04:05:13 PM
There are some photos here:
http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html (http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html)
I think this came up on another thread not too long ago, and someone had pointed to this page.


I had seen those pictures before (hence my reference to upstairs being set up as a meeting room or breakroom). I was just curious if there were any others. I'm not optimistic of finding anything from back when it was still in use.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on November 05, 2014, 09:21:55 PM
I have suggested in the past (and I repeat) that it is time for the N.J. Turnpike to do away with the silly "secret" N.J. 700 designation and sign the Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 as a 3DI, perhaps I-895. Turnpikes in states as diverse as Kansas and Pennsylvania have done this for many years.

FHWA has objected to such in the past for the following reason (note: this was written several years ago):

Quote from: Steve Anderson's NYCRoads Website
The most serious Federal problem is that the southern part of the New Jersey Turnpike is not presently on the Interstate System and must not carry an Interstate number. The state of New Jersey would have to be sure that all features are up to current standards, agree to operating requirements for Interstates, and submit a request to the FHWA that it be designated an Interstate. The state has not been persuaded so far that it would be worth it.

Source for above-quote (http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/)

Nonetheless, there's no reason why the NJTA can't actually sign & designate the lower Turnpike as State Route 695 or 895.

Would this happening in 20xx mean it would not be grandfathered in?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on November 05, 2014, 09:34:59 PM
I have suggested in the past (and I repeat) that it is time for the N.J. Turnpike to do away with the silly "secret" N.J. 700 designation and sign the Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 as a 3DI, perhaps I-895. Turnpikes in states as diverse as Kansas and Pennsylvania have done this for many years.

FHWA has objected to such in the past for the following reason (note: this was written several years ago):

Quote from: Steve Anderson's NYCRoads Website
The most serious Federal problem is that the southern part of the New Jersey Turnpike is not presently on the Interstate System and must not carry an Interstate number. The state of New Jersey would have to be sure that all features are up to current standards, agree to operating requirements for Interstates, and submit a request to the FHWA that it be designated an Interstate. The state has not been persuaded so far that it would be worth it.

Source for above-quote (http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/)

Nonetheless, there's no reason why the NJTA can't actually sign & designate the lower Turnpike as State Route 695 or 895.

Would this happening in 20xx mean it would not be grandfathered in?

They don't really grandfather stuff in anymore. Take I-86 in New York. AASHTO won't approve the designation in Binghamton until Kamikaze Curve is fixed. Part of this section is even concurrent with I-81 and all was built to ~1960s standards. East of the Exit 111 RIRO is the same quality as many Interstates in much of the northeast (including I-84 and I-87) and that isn't even I-86 yet. I'm pretty sure that the speed limits will even remain the same (except the small stretch it's getting a new/rebuilt alignment).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 05, 2014, 10:21:51 PM
I have suggested in the past (and I repeat) that it is time for the N.J. Turnpike to do away with the silly "secret" N.J. 700 designation and sign the Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 as a 3DI, perhaps I-895. Turnpikes in states as diverse as Kansas and Pennsylvania have done this for many years.

FHWA has objected to such in the past for the following reason (note: this was written several years ago):

Quote from: Steve Anderson's NYCRoads Website
The most serious Federal problem is that the southern part of the New Jersey Turnpike is not presently on the Interstate System and must not carry an Interstate number. The state of New Jersey would have to be sure that all features are up to current standards, agree to operating requirements for Interstates, and submit a request to the FHWA that it be designated an Interstate. The state has not been persuaded so far that it would be worth it.

Source for above-quote (http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/)

Nonetheless, there's no reason why the NJTA can't actually sign & designate the lower Turnpike as State Route 695 or 895.

What difference would it make? Motorists are concerned about two things:

A) It's the NJ Turnpike
B) The direction of travel

Depending on the road, people may be more familiar with the name anyway. To give the southern portion a new number would be a pointless concurrency.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on November 05, 2014, 10:39:41 PM
The exit numbers will have to be changed to the mileage basis either way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on November 06, 2014, 11:42:43 AM
....
In 2008, I went on a road trip with my then-9-year-old son. I was a PennDOT employee at the time and I arranged ahead of time (had to arrange for personal liability assumption and all that) for the two of us to tour the tunnel, dorm, and facilities which are not accessible to the public. The dorm is still much as it was when it was used, but without the beds; it's now used for storage. The tunnel is used by employees. It's in relatively good shape, but the paint has peeled a lot. The stairs in the north plaza had been removed and rebuilt in a slightly different location (now completely obliterated with the demolition of course). The stairs in the south plaza are in the same location, just not accessible by the public.
Neat. Do you have any pictures you can share, or do they frown upon your posting that sort of thing?

I don't have any pics of the dormitory, but I do have some of the tunnel and stairs. I'll post them when I get a chance.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 06, 2014, 02:46:41 PM
Quote from: Steve Anderson's NYCRoads Website
The most serious Federal problem is that the southern part of the New Jersey Turnpike is not presently on the Interstate System and must not carry an Interstate number. The state of New Jersey would have to be sure that all features are up to current standards, agree to operating requirements for Interstates, and submit a request to the FHWA that it be designated an Interstate. The state has not been persuaded so far that it would be worth it.

Source for above-quote (http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/)

Nonetheless, there's no reason why the NJTA can't actually sign & designate the lower Turnpike as State Route 695 or 895.

Though I have driven that part of the N.J. Turnpike many times, and aside from the non-MUTCD signage, it would seem able to pass an inspection by FHWA or AASHTO to allow it to be signed as an Interstate.  I do not think I have used all of the exits, so they may not be up to snuff, but on the other hand, they have to be better than some of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's interchanges along the E-W Mainline and Northeast Extension, all of which have Interstate designation.

Speaking of which, the approaches to the F.S. Key Bridge were once signed as Md. 695 (because they were Super-2, though the bridge itself has always been four lane divided), but is now signed as I-695 (though the last time I checked, the Highway Location Reference still reads Md. 695), even though some sections of the road seem to not exactly be Interstate standard, especially on the southeast side, between U.S. 40 and Md. 151 (one of the exits to the now-defunct Sparrows Point steel mill).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 06, 2014, 03:30:51 PM
Quote from: Steve Anderson's NYCRoads Website
The most serious Federal problem is that the southern part of the New Jersey Turnpike is not presently on the Interstate System and must not carry an Interstate number. The state of New Jersey would have to be sure that all features are up to current standards, agree to operating requirements for Interstates, and submit a request to the FHWA that it be designated an Interstate. The state has not been persuaded so far that it would be worth it.

Source for above-quote (http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/)

Nonetheless, there's no reason why the NJTA can't actually sign & designate the lower Turnpike as State Route 695 or 895.

Though I have driven that part of the N.J. Turnpike many times, and aside from the non-MUTCD signage, it would seem able to pass an inspection by FHWA or AASHTO to allow it to be signed as an Interstate.  I do not think I have used all of the exits, so they may not be up to snuff, but on the other hand, they have to be better than some of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's interchanges along the E-W Mainline and Northeast Extension, all of which have Interstate designation.

Speaking of which, the approaches to the F.S. Key Bridge were once signed as Md. 695 (because they were Super-2, though the bridge itself has always been four lane divided), but is now signed as I-695 (though the last time I checked, the Highway Location Reference still reads Md. 695), even though some sections of the road seem to not exactly be Interstate standard, especially on the southeast side, between U.S. 40 and Md. 151 (one of the exits to the now-defunct Sparrows Point steel mill).

It would have to be a nitpik type of thing if anything.  Anything between Exits 1 & 6 are what would be found elsewhere on the interstate portion of the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 06, 2014, 05:00:42 PM
It would have to be a nitpik type of thing if anything.  Anything between Exits 1 & 6 are what would be found elsewhere on the interstate portion of the Turnpike.
Is there a difference in overpass clearances between the southern section (Exits 1-6) vs. Exit 6 and up?  I'm assuming that the southern section is one section that hasn't yet been significantly redesigned/altered since it was built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 07, 2014, 02:42:05 PM
It would have to be a nitpik type of thing if anything.  Anything between Exits 1 & 6 are what would be found elsewhere on the interstate portion of the Turnpike.
Is there a difference in overpass clearances between the southern section (Exits 1-6) vs. Exit 6 and up?  I'm assuming that the southern section is one section that hasn't yet been significantly redesigned/altered since it was built.

I don't believe any of them are posted for low overheight clearance (less than 16 foot overheight clearance).   

Come to think of it, I do not recall ever having seen a structure over the New Jersey Turnpike that was posted for clearance issues.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 07, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
It would have to be a nitpik type of thing if anything.  Anything between Exits 1 & 6 are what would be found elsewhere on the interstate portion of the Turnpike.
Is there a difference in overpass clearances between the southern section (Exits 1-6) vs. Exit 6 and up?  I'm assuming that the southern section is one section that hasn't yet been significantly redesigned/altered since it was built.

I don't believe any of them are posted for low overheight clearance (less than 16 foot overheight clearance).   

Come to think of it, I do not recall ever having seen a structure over the New Jersey Turnpike that was posted for clearance issues.

Correct.  I *think* the lowest overpass is under the Pulaski Skyway, which I think has 14' of clearance at its lowest point, but I'm not sure of the exact number.  Otherwise, most of the overpasses provide at least that much of clearance.  The newer ones provide a bit more clearance but not by much. 

In NJ, at least for NJDOT highways, they only sign overpasses that provide 14' 5" of clearance or less.  There's a rare sign here and there above that height.  Very few overpasses will provide 16' or greater of clearance.  Even most new overpasses only provide 15' 6" or so.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on November 07, 2014, 03:17:22 PM
Parts of signed I-695 and I-895 in Maryland were never approved by FHWA. Just fuck it and post the signs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 21, 2014, 12:49:23 PM
Post-Gazette.com: Two former Pa. Turnpike officials plead guilty to conflict of interest (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/state/2014/11/20/Two-former-Pennsylvania-Turnpike-officials-plead-guilty-to-conflict-of-interest/stories/201411200359)

Quote
Although charges were announced last year with great fanfare in an alleged “pay to play”  scandal involving secret gifts of cash, travel and entertainment, and campaign contributions, the case against numerous former Pennsylvania Turnpike officials ended quietly Thursday with plea deals and no jail time.

Quote
The last two defendants in the high-profile corruption case pleaded guilty Thursday to one count each of felony conflict of interest; other defendants in the case had previously entered guilty pleas, entered a diversion program that will allow charges to be dropped or had charges dismissed.

Quote
Former Pennsylvania Turnpike CEO Joseph Brimmeier and former COO George Hatalowich were sentenced Thursday to 60 months of probation, a fine of $2,500 and 250 hours of community service. The state is not requesting restitution in either case.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 24, 2014, 12:23:07 PM
I-276 BGS replacement update (no photos, just observations as of Nov. 22):

Apparently, somebody at PTC must've read either this thread or elsewhere on this site about the absence of I-476 South info. on the main BGS' for Exit 333 (Norristown) along I-276 eastbound. 

The new BGS' along I-276 eastbound now read as:

EXIT 333
NORRISTOWN
476 SOUTH
Chester


Such wording eliminates the redundant Norristown listings that the previous (and current BGS along I-276 westbound) contained.  IMHO, a supplemental BGS listing either Plymouth Road or Plymouth Meeting (or Mtg.) should still be provided.  Note: the older gantry with the button-copy BGS' at the eastbound exit (333) gore is still standing; the new red pipe gantry with the new BGS' is erected in front of the old gantry.

As with the other replacement BGS' along I-276; all the fonts (except for those on the route shields which are in Series C) are in Clearview and the destination listings are oversized.  Such makes for some unnecessarily large & wide signs (especially for the westbound EXIT 333 NORRISTOWN Norristown) BGS'.

At the Fort Washington (Exit 339/PA 309) plaza, the new gantry and BGS for I-276 West are now erected.  Interestingly, the old button-copy BGS for I-276 East has been transferred onto the new gantry.  Judging by the additional bare vertical members on the gantry, the replacement BGS will be wider than the old BGS.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman on November 24, 2014, 12:53:33 PM
IIRC, one of the selling points of Clearview was that you wouldn't need to enlarge sign legends to maintain legibility.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 24, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
IIRC, one of the selling points of Clearview was that you wouldn't need to enlarge sign legends to maintain legibility.
Agreed, but that hasn't stopped many agencies (not just PTC and/or PennDOT) from doing such.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2014, 02:13:15 PM
IIRC, one of the selling points of Clearview was that you wouldn't need to enlarge sign legends to maintain legibility.
Agreed, but that hasn't stopped many agencies (not just PTC and/or PennDOT) from doing such.

You would think that oversized Clearview lettering was part of their sales appeal for as often as it is done. Highway Gothic is just as legible in oversized characters. See any new Georgia installs and its the same concept.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 24, 2014, 08:35:44 PM
I-276 BGS replacement update (no photos, just observations as of Nov. 22):

Apparently, somebody at PTC must've read either this thread or elsewhere on this site about the absence of I-476 South info. on the main BGS' for Exit 333 (Norristown) along I-276 eastbound. 

The new BGS' along I-276 eastbound now read as:

EXIT 333
NORRISTOWN
476 SOUTH
Chester



That's been there for a few months IIRC
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 25, 2014, 09:20:54 AM
I-276 BGS replacement update (no photos, just observations as of Nov. 22):

Apparently, somebody at PTC must've read either this thread or elsewhere on this site about the absence of I-476 South info. on the main BGS' for Exit 333 (Norristown) along I-276 eastbound. 

The new BGS' along I-276 eastbound now read as:

EXIT 333
NORRISTOWN
476 SOUTH
Chester



That's been there for a few months IIRC
Where were you this past Oct. 29 (see Reply #887) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=419.875) when I commented regarding the older Exit 333/Norristown signs?  :sombrero:

All kidding aside, thanks for the info./update.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Pete from Boston on November 25, 2014, 10:01:23 AM

There are some photos here:
http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html (http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html)
I think this came up on another thread not too long ago, and someone had pointed to this page.


I had seen those pictures before (hence my reference to upstairs being set up as a meeting room or breakroom). I was just curious if there were any others. I'm not optimistic of finding anything from back when it was still in use.

This is interesting because the only time I've heard of such bunks for truckers is at the nearby Gateway Travel Center or whatever it's called in Breezewood — basically a private rest area/truckstop. They have quite a thorough telling of their history in there, complete with photos, and their original building in the 1940s included upstairs bunks for weary travelers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Pete from Boston on November 25, 2014, 10:13:32 AM

There are some photos here:
http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html (http://www.gribblenation.com/breezewood/midway.html)
I think this came up on another thread not too long ago, and someone had pointed to this page.


I had seen those pictures before (hence my reference to upstairs being set up as a meeting room or breakroom). I was just curious if there were any others. I'm not optimistic of finding anything from back when it was still in use.

This is interesting because the only time I've heard of such bunks for truckers is at the nearby Gateway Travel Center or whatever it's called in Breezewood — basically a private rest area/truckstop. They have quite a thorough telling of their history in there, complete with photos, and their original building in the 1940s included upstairs bunks for weary travelers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 30, 2014, 02:12:56 PM
Philly.com: Chinese investors sign up to fund I-95-Pa. Turnpike link (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20141130_Chinese_investors_sign_up_to_fund_I-95-Pa__Turnpike_link.html)

Quote
Chinese investors have begun signing up to spend $500,000 each to help pay for a long-awaited connection between the Pennsylvania Turnpike and I-95.

Quote
In exchange, the investors hope to get permanent residency in the United States for themselves and their families.

Quote
Agents for the novel financing plan have been pitching the proposal in China since September, touting the project's financial stability and showcasing photos of Gov. Corbett and Turnpike Commission officials breaking ground for the construction in Bucks County.

Quote
"Guaranteed by U.S. Government, Class A+ Repayment Credit!" proclaimed the Chinese-language website promoting the investment last month. "A key expressway-connecting hub project in U.S.A.!"

But will the project get done partially completed any sooner than 2017?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on November 30, 2014, 07:14:20 PM
2017 is extremely optimistic. It's almost 2015 and I don't think they've broken ground yet for the 95/Pa. Tpk. interchange. At least not as of last July when I was there. At the speed they're going, a more realistic completion date might by say 2025?

And to think the entire original 118-mile New Jersey Turnpike was built in 2 years........ Yes, I know things were a lot simpler then but still, we could use some of that post World War II style sense-of-urgency now........
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on November 30, 2014, 08:27:50 PM
2017 is extremely optimistic. It's almost 2015 and I don't think they've broken ground yet for the 95/Pa. Tpk. interchange. At least not as of last July when I was there. At the speed they're going, a more realistic completion date might by say 2025?

And to think the entire original 118-mile New Jersey Turnpike was built in 2 years........ Yes, I know things were a lot simpler then but still, we could use some of that post World War II style sense-of-urgency now........

Heck, the flipping Brooklyn Bridge was constructed in only 13 years by hand
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 01, 2014, 02:43:56 AM
2017 is extremely optimistic. It's almost 2015 and I don't think they've broken ground yet for the 95/Pa. Tpk. interchange. At least not as of last July when I was there. At the speed they're going, a more realistic completion date might by say 2025?

Agreed that the PTC's pace is like slow molasses. 

Did drive by there in early November (2014), and some work was being done on the right side of I-276 approaching the site of the future I-95 interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2014, 08:09:29 AM
Here's pictures from the construction update page regarding what they've been doing.  http://www.paturnpikei95.com/construction/CurrentConstructionSectionD1E.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on December 01, 2014, 08:44:47 AM
Yes, the first (Section D10/E) of the two phases that actually involve building the first part of the connection (the flyover ramps for what will be I-95 north-to-south and south-to-north) is under construction. The second (Section D20/F) of the two phases is scheduled to go to construction in spring of 2015.

This won't be the entire interchange, mind you, only the two ramps of I-95. But it is something. Finally one of the contracts for the interchange itself is under construction. Yip-yip-yahoo. Thank God for small miracles.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 01, 2014, 11:11:47 AM
Yes, the first (Section D10/E) of the two phases that actually involve building the first part of the connection (the flyover ramps for what will be I-95 north-to-south and south-to-north) is under construction. The second (Section D20/F) of the two phases is scheduled to go to construction in spring of 2015.

This won't be the entire interchange, mind you, only the two ramps of I-95. But it is something. Finally one of the contracts for the interchange itself is under construction. Yip-yip-yahoo. Thank God for small miracles.

Aside from the hemmoraghing of PTC cash to pay employees of SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County, is there any reason why this needs to take 2+ construction seasons? 

Maryland built several interchanges, plus mainline freeway on Md. 200 in one season.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 01, 2014, 11:13:30 AM
Here's pictures from the construction update page regarding what they've been doing.  http://www.paturnpikei95.com/construction/CurrentConstructionSectionD1E.htm

This is exactly what we (Laura, MTantillo and myself) saw in early November when we drove by there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 01, 2014, 11:22:17 AM
Based on the graphic in the article that CP posted yesterday and in a FB posting containing another web-link (I saw it earlier but can't find it); the redesignation of I-95/295 north of the PA Turnpike and I-195 is slated to become I-395 rather than an extension of I-195. 

Such a designation would eliminate the need to change more mile markers & interchange numbers along I-195 as well as having a through-route running via a cloverleaf ramp (current I-295 South onto I-195 East).

Personally, I would've went with I-695 since the roadway in question is actually a beltway around Trenton and the fact that the original I-695 projects in both PA and NJ never came to fruition.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on December 01, 2014, 11:26:41 AM
This won't be the entire interchange, mind you, only the two ramps of I-95. But it is something. Finally one of the contracts for the interchange itself is under construction. Yip-yip-yahoo. Thank God for small miracles.

So in about 7 years we should see the rest of the interchange built? By that time, I'm sure the NJ Turnpike will be widened all the way to the Delaware Memorial Bridge.

Based on the graphic in the article that CP posted yesterday and in a FB posting containing another web-link (I saw it earlier but can't find it); the redesignation of I-95/295 north of the PA Turnpike and I-195 is slated to become I-395 rather than an extension of I-195. 

Such a designation would eliminate the need to change more mile markers & interchange numbers along I-195 as well as having a through-route running via a cloverleaf ramp (current I-295 South onto I-195 East).

Personally, I would've went with I-695 since the roadway in question is actually a beltway around Trenton and the fact that the original I-695 projects in both PA and NJ never came to fruition.

What?! How many times is that designation going to change? I could've sworn I-195 was already pretty much the final answer.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on December 01, 2014, 11:54:39 AM
Based on the graphic in the article that CP posted yesterday and in a FB posting containing another web-link (I saw it earlier but can't find it); the redesignation of I-95/295 north of the PA Turnpike and I-195 is slated to become I-395 rather than an extension of I-195. 

Such a designation would eliminate the need to change more mile markers & interchange numbers along I-195 as well as having a through-route running via a cloverleaf ramp (current I-295 South onto I-195 East).

Personally, I would've went with I-695 since the roadway in question is actually a beltway around Trenton and the fact that the original I-695 projects in both PA and NJ never came to fruition.

I am glad to hear of this possible change.  I would also have used I-695, or I-895 (which also had an original project in both states, closer by), but at least something other than I-195 is the cleanest way to incorporate another designation into the system in this area.  Would eliminate the need for cardinal direction changes as well along the affected sections of present I-95 and I-295.  Limits the peripheral changes to milemarkers and exits in on "future-former" I-95 in Pa.  Much smarter use of precious construction dollars.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on December 01, 2014, 12:08:02 PM
I-195 is what AASHTO approved back in 2007. Doesn't mean they won't change it.

http://articles.philly.com/2014-08-14/business/52772901_1_toll-gantry-pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-new-jersey-turnpike
Quote
When Stage 1 is completed in 2018, I-95 will be rerouted onto the Pennsylvania Turnpike east of the connection and then onto the New Jersey Turnpike. The current I-95 north of the connection will be redesignated as I-395 or I-195, project manager Jeff Davis said.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 01, 2014, 12:20:07 PM
I am glad to hear of this possible change.  I would also have used I-695, or I-895 (which also had an original project in both states, closer by), but at least something other than I-195 is the cleanest way to incorporate another designation into the system in this area.  Would eliminate the need for cardinal direction changes as well along the affected sections of present I-95 and I-295.
IMHO, the NJ section of the future I-395 should still be signed East-West given its beginning & end points in the Garden State.  Such wouldn't alter Exits and mile markers 1 through 8 at all.

The PA section can (IMHO, should) still stay North-South once its changed from I-95 to I-395 as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on December 01, 2014, 01:07:20 PM
I am glad to hear of this possible change.  I would also have used I-695, or I-895 (which also had an original project in both states, closer by), but at least something other than I-195 is the cleanest way to incorporate another designation into the system in this area.  Would eliminate the need for cardinal direction changes as well along the affected sections of present I-95 and I-295.
IMHO, the NJ section of the future I-395 should still be signed East-West given its beginning & end points in the Garden State.  Such wouldn't alter Exits and mile markers 1 through 8 at all.

The PA section can (IMHO, should) still stay North-South once its changed from I-95 to I-395 as well.
agreed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 01, 2014, 01:12:18 PM
Honestly, we don't need any more occurrences of two interstates ending at each other at a random location.  Bad enough that I-195/I-495 and I-280/I-680 do it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2014, 01:18:43 PM

Based on the graphic in the article that CP posted yesterday and in a FB posting containing another web-link (I saw it earlier but can't find it); the redesignation of I-95/295 north of the PA Turnpike and I-195 is slated to become I-395 rather than an extension of I-195. 

Such a designation would eliminate the need to change more mile markers & interchange numbers along I-195 as well as having a through-route running via a cloverleaf ramp (current I-295 South onto I-195 East).

Personally, I would've went with I-695 since the roadway in question is actually a beltway around Trenton and the fact that the original I-695 projects in both PA and NJ never came to fruition.

What?! How many times is that designation going to change? I could've sworn I-195 was already pretty much the final answer.

Until the signs are posted, it's not final.  And even then things can change! :-)

I recall seeing something as well that referred to I-395.  If this is what they decide on, Ithink it's a good decision all around.  It eliminates all the issues of changing everything along present-day 195 in NJ; not only the highway signs, but all the businesses and people that rely on the current signage.

As for the odd vs. even numbering, it doesn't bother me either way.  And it makes for a nice 195/295/395 meetup. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on December 01, 2014, 01:58:24 PM
Shouldn't miles 0 to 60 of the I-295 be redesignated to an odd number first digit as it will no longer rejoin its parent, i.e. the I-95.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on December 01, 2014, 02:05:08 PM
Honestly, we don't need any more occurrences of two interstates ending at each other at a random location.  Bad enough that I-195/I-495 and I-280/I-680 do it.
Both of those are major interchanges, not random locations. Making I-195 and I-495 one continuous route would be stupid. I-280/680 would make more sense, but it's fine as it is.

Shouldn't miles 0 to 60 of the I-295 be redesignated to an odd number first digit as it will no longer rejoin its parent, i.e. the I-95.
No. Ignoring the fact that the rules have been crushed in recent years, there was never any consensus on what parity to give a route that begins at the parent but ends at another Interstate. See I-276.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2014, 03:07:11 PM
Shouldn't miles 0 to 60 of the I-295 be redesignated to an odd number first digit as it will no longer rejoin its parent, i.e. the I-95.
No. Ignoring the fact that the rules have been crushed in recent years, there was never any consensus on what parity to give a route that begins at the parent but ends at another Interstate. See I-276.

See I-476 if you want an interstate that doesn't begin nor end at its parent.

Regarding 295...if one of the reasons for not changing 195 is because of the work involved to redo the exit numbers, they're not going to change 295, which would require changing the route number upteen millions of times.

You *could* extend 295 along 195 for 6 additional miles and then it would meet up with its parent (NJ Turnpike I-95), but it'll be a relatively pointless concurrence.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on December 01, 2014, 03:20:04 PM
See I-476 if you want an interstate that doesn't begin nor end at its parent.
I immediately thought of I-476 after reading NE2's post too.  Granted, I didn't chime in.  I suppose one cound say for interstate anomalies/fuck ups, see PennDOT.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on December 01, 2014, 05:13:38 PM
Shouldn't miles 0 to 60 of the I-295 be redesignated to an odd number first digit as it will no longer rejoin its parent, i.e. the I-95.
No. Ignoring the fact that the rules have been crushed in recent years, there was never any consensus on what parity to give a route that begins at the parent but ends at another Interstate. See I-276.

Agree completely. The thing is that an even 3di has differing meanings depending on the state. In NY, NJ and OH, an even digit is assigned if it connects to an Interstate at both ends. While I-390 has both ends at an Interstate currently, that was not the case until 15 years ago. I-590 was, at one point, going to be extended to NY 104. I-280, I-684 and I-290 were never intended to connect to their parents on both ends. Heck, I-287 doesn't have either end at its parent, although the New York portion did at one point.

Some states aren't even consistent within their own borders. Take Massachusetts. There's the I-395 designation from Connecticut and then you have I-290, I-291, and I-495. 291 doesn't even have a direct interchange with I-90. PA is the same way with I-376 - both the old and new iterations have both ends at an Interstate, yet every other 3di with both ends at an interstate is even.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 01, 2014, 05:30:42 PM
The thing is that an even 3di has differing meanings depending on the state. In NY, NJ and OH, an even digit is assigned if it connects to an Interstate at both ends. While I-390 has both ends at an Interstate currently, that was not the case until 15 years ago. I-590 was, at one point, going to be extended to NY 104. I-280, I-684 and I-290 were never intended to connect to their parents on both ends. Heck, I-287 doesn't have either end at its parent, although the New York portion did at one point.
FWIW, on their road maps & atlases, Rand McNally lists 3dis on their road maps (in a separate legend from the general legend) in the following manner:

First Digit Even: route through or around a city.

First Digit Odd: spur route into a city.

Nothing is mentioned (on the map legend) about whether or not these 3dis began and/or ended with either their parent 2di or another Interstate route all together.

Some states aren't even consistent within their own borders. Take Massachusetts. There's the I-395 designation from Connecticut and then you have I-290, I-291, and I-495. 291 doesn't even have a direct interchange with I-90. PA is the same way with I-376 - both the old and new iterations have both ends at an Interstate, yet every other 3di with both ends at an interstate is even.
Do keep in mind that the I-395 designation came along years if not a decade later than most of the 3dis in the Bay State (the highway was originally CT/MA 52).

The reason why 395 was chosen rather than an extension of I-290 (or even I-190, one early-80s vintage Atlas road map erroneously listed MA 52 as such) was likely due to CT not having I-90 anywhere inside the state.  The closest I-90 gets to the CT border is just over 7 miles at the Sturbridge (Exit 9/I-84) interchange.  In contrast, I-95 goes through both CT and MA and I-195 was already taken in MA (& RI).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 01, 2014, 08:47:50 PM
Shouldn't miles 0 to 60 of the I-295 be redesignated to an odd number first digit as it will no longer rejoin its parent, i.e. the I-95.
No. Ignoring the fact that the rules have been crushed in recent years, there was never any consensus on what parity to give a route that begins at the parent but ends at another Interstate. See I-276.
I-276 was designated well before it ended at another Interstate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on December 02, 2014, 04:16:21 AM
Shouldn't miles 0 to 60 of the I-295 be redesignated to an odd number first digit as it will no longer rejoin its parent, i.e. the I-95.
No. Ignoring the fact that the rules have been crushed in recent years, there was never any consensus on what parity to give a route that begins at the parent but ends at another Interstate. See I-276.
I-276 was designated well before it ended at another Interstate.
I-276 ended at what was then future I-95.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/tollroad.cfm
Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike, 359 miles: from the Ohio State line to Bristol (the entire route except a short section at the eastern end).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 02, 2014, 01:32:04 PM
Honestly, we don't need any more occurrences of two interstates ending at each other at a random location.  Bad enough that I-195/I-495 and I-280/I-680 do it.
Both of those are major interchanges, not random locations. Making I-195 and I-495 one continuous route would be stupid. I-280/680 would make more sense, but it's fine as it is.
Personally, I'd extend I-195 and decommission MA 25, which would have I-495 end at I-195.

The reason why 395 was chosen rather than an extension of I-290 (or even I-190, one early-80s vintage Atlas road map erroneously listed MA 52 as such) was likely due to CT not having I-90 anywhere inside the state.  The closest I-90 gets to the CT border is just over 7 miles at the Sturbridge (Exit 9/I-84) interchange.  In contrast, I-95 goes through both CT and MA and I-195 was already taken in MA (& RI).
I-290 and I-395 -> I-695
I-190 -> I-395
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 02, 2014, 01:58:34 PM
Personally, I'd extend I-195 and decommission MA 25, which would have I-495 end at I-195.
I-495 already ends at I-195.  Your suggestion (which I agree with you 100%) only involves changing MA 25 not I-495.

The reason why 395 was chosen rather than an extension of I-290 (or even I-190, one early-80s vintage Atlas road map erroneously listed MA 52 as such) was likely due to CT not having I-90 anywhere inside the state.  The closest I-90 gets to the CT border is just over 7 miles at the Sturbridge (Exit 9/I-84) interchange.  In contrast, I-95 goes through both CT and MA and I-195 was already taken in MA (& RI).
I-290 and I-395 -> I-695
I-190 -> I-395
Nice idea.  However, when CT/MA 52 became I-395; I-290 was already built and the decision to designate as an Interstate came about due to CT (not MA) trading in I-84 (to RI) mileage.  As a result, ConnDOT was only focused on CT/MA 52 not I-190 nor 290 further north.

I-395 Historic Overview (http://www.bostonroads.com/roads/I-395_MA/).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 02, 2014, 06:33:57 PM
Shouldn't miles 0 to 60 of the I-295 be redesignated to an odd number first digit as it will no longer rejoin its parent, i.e. the I-95.
No. Ignoring the fact that the rules have been crushed in recent years, there was never any consensus on what parity to give a route that begins at the parent but ends at another Interstate. See I-276.
I-276 was designated well before it ended at another Interstate.
I-276 ended at what was then future I-95.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/tollroad.cfm
Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike, 359 miles: from the Ohio State line to Bristol (the entire route except a short section at the eastern end).
You're telling me that the Somerset Freeway proposal was already dead before I-276 was numbered (at least as the original I-280)? I don't buy it for a second.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on December 02, 2014, 06:46:14 PM
No, I-280/276 ended at the crossing of then-proposed I-95 in Bucks County. This was probably at US 13 (exit 358) rather than where I-95 was eventually built (2 miles west). I don't know if or when I-276 was officially extended to the state line.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DrSmith on December 02, 2014, 07:41:01 PM
Just to be crazy and continue making long x76 routes, switch 276 onto the old 95 north of the PA turnpike up and around Trenton.  We could always use more super long x76 routes that go way beyond everything else.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on December 02, 2014, 09:14:11 PM
This Interstate route numbering and re-numbering is all very confusing.

 Back to the Interchange completion issue. I said before and I will repeat, I think the PTC is purposely stretching this project out as many years as they can to delay what they believe will be a loss of toll revenue resulting from the I-95 connection. They never wanted this interchange in the first place for that reason or it would have been built by them back in the 1970's.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on December 02, 2014, 11:26:31 PM
Just to be crazy and continue making long x76 routes, switch 276 onto the old 95 north of the PA turnpike up and around Trenton.  We could always use more super long x76 routes that go way beyond everything else.

Please, knowing PA, they'd find a way to get I-99 or an x99 on current I-95
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 02, 2014, 11:33:38 PM
No, I-280/276 ended at the crossing of then-proposed I-95 in Bucks County. This was probably at US 13 (exit 358) rather than where I-95 was eventually built (2 miles west). I don't know if or when I-276 was officially extended to the state line.
Exactly. It did not end at another Interstate. Thank you.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on December 03, 2014, 06:40:39 AM
No, I-280/276 ended at the crossing of then-proposed I-95 in Bucks County. This was probably at US 13 (exit 358) rather than where I-95 was eventually built (2 miles west). I don't know if or when I-276 was officially extended to the state line.
Exactly. It did not end at another Interstate. Thank you.
It ended at another Interstate in the way that most even 3DIs did back then, when the system was still being built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 03, 2014, 07:56:25 PM
No, I-280/276 ended at the crossing of then-proposed I-95 in Bucks County. This was probably at US 13 (exit 358) rather than where I-95 was eventually built (2 miles west). I don't know if or when I-276 was officially extended to the state line.
Exactly. It did not end at another Interstate. Thank you.
It ended at another Interstate in the way that most even 3DIs did back then, when the system was still being built.
Okay. What happened between the period that Somerset was cancelled but before 95 was extended to the PA Extension? Wasn't there a time when it was extended down to Exit 8 or so, but not all the way?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NE2 on December 03, 2014, 08:55:13 PM
What happened between the period that Somerset was cancelled but before 95 was extended to the PA Extension? Wasn't there a time when it was extended down to Exit 8 or so, but not all the way?
Signage was not all changed at once (and still hasn't been), but I-95 was officially moved from the Somerset to the PA Extension in 1982.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/97/hjres631/text
Quote
SEC. 149. (A) Notwithstanding the first sentence of section 103(e)(4) of title 23, United States Code ["Upon the joint request of a State Governor and the local governments concerned, the Secretary may withdraw his approval of any route or portion thereof on the Interstate System which is within an urbanized area or which passes through and connects urbanized areas within a State and which was selected and approved in accordance with this title, if he determines that such route or portion thereof is not essential to completion of a unified and connected Interstate System and if he receives assurances that the State does not intend to construct a toll road in the traffic corridor which would be served by the route or portion thereof."], the Secretary of Transportation shall approve the withdrawal from the Interstate System the route of Interstate Route 95 and Interstate Route 695 from the intersection with Interstate Route 295 in Hopewell Township, Mercer County, New Jersey, to the proposed intersection with Interstate Route 287 in Franklin Township, Somerset County, New Jersey.
(B) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Transportation is authorized and directed, pursuant to section 103 of such title, to designate as part of the Interstate Highway System the New Jersey Turnpike from exit 10 to the interchange with the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the Pennsylvania Turnpike from such interchange to and including the proposed interchange with Interstate Route 95 in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
(C) The Secretary of Transportation is further authorized and directed to designate Interstate Route 95 and assure through proper sign designations the orderly connection of Interstate Route 95 pursuant to this section.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hubcity on December 04, 2014, 10:02:23 AM
That reminds me of the old mile designations on I-287 - as you went south (west at the time) on NJ 440, mileage dropped to 0 at the Turnpike, then reset to (I think) 36, and continued down to (again, I think) 33 before dropping to 0 for the "actual" start of I-287, where I-95, whose mileage was represented by the 36-33 numbering, was to turn south. Exits were renumbered when they finally moved the start of I-287 to abut the start of NJ 440.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 05, 2014, 12:06:13 AM
That reminds me of the old mile designations on I-287 - as you went south (west at the time) on NJ 440, mileage dropped to 0 at the Turnpike, then reset to (I think) 36, and continued down to (again, I think) 33 before dropping to 0 for the "actual" start of I-287, where I-95, whose mileage was represented by the 36-33 numbering, was to turn south. Exits were renumbered when they finally moved the start of I-287 to abut the start of NJ 440.
(http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/nj/i-287/n41g.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on December 05, 2014, 09:49:05 AM
At which service areas on the Turnpike is E-85 available?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 19, 2014, 07:06:20 PM
Wonder if this will have any pictures of Breezewood, or maybe of that monument to PTC slothfulness, the uncompleted Bristol interchange between I-95 and the East-West Mainline of the Turnpike?

Request for quotation: PA Turnpike 75th Anniversary Coffee Table Book (http://www.paturnpike.com/purchasing/Bid%20Tabs/BID%20Printing-75thAnnivBook-2014.pdf) (.pdf)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 19, 2014, 07:10:34 PM
At which service areas on the Turnpike is E-85 available?

According to this (http://www.paturnpike.com/pdf/PA_Turnpike_Service_Plazas.pdf#search=%22e-85%22):

Oakmont Plum;
North Somerset;
Sideling Hill; and
Allentown.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hubcity on December 22, 2014, 02:56:39 PM
Wonder if this will have any pictures of Breezewood, or maybe of that monument to PTC slothfulness, the uncompleted Bristol interchange between I-95 and the East-West Mainline of the Turnpike?

Request for quotation: PA Turnpike 75th Anniversary Coffee Table Book (http://www.paturnpike.com/purchasing/Bid%20Tabs/BID%20Printing-75thAnnivBook-2014.pdf) (.pdf)

April 2105 launch, huh? Going for bids early...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 22, 2014, 07:14:41 PM
Wonder if this will have any pictures of Breezewood, or maybe of that monument to PTC slothfulness, the uncompleted Bristol interchange between I-95 and the East-West Mainline of the Turnpike?

Request for quotation: PA Turnpike 75th Anniversary Coffee Table Book (http://www.paturnpike.com/purchasing/Bid%20Tabs/BID%20Printing-75thAnnivBook-2014.pdf) (.pdf)

April 2105 launch, huh? Going for bids early...
I gotta say, based on progress with I-95 so far, 2105 may be realistic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 24, 2014, 03:28:01 PM
Pa. Turnpike considers plans to replace Allegheny Tunnels in Somerset County (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2014/12/24/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-considers-plans-to-replace-tunnels-in-Somerset-County/stories/201412230034)

I'd expect anyone that's a member of this site isn't gonna find too much new information in this article.  But, maybe...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 25, 2014, 02:16:00 PM
I wonder if they could try a cut for trucks/HOT only.  2-3 lanes with a zipper.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on January 09, 2015, 02:20:31 PM
http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2015/20150107160400.htm

Funding for a new interchange in Norristown has been approved, according to the local media, earliest expected completion is 2020.

Quote
The PA Turnpike Commission (PTC) announced today that it has identified funding needed to construct a new interchange joining the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Interstate 276) with the Lafayette Street Extension in Montgomery County. Turnpike commissioners recently committed $45 million to construct a full on/off connection to be located between the existing Valley Forge and Norristown exits.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 09, 2015, 02:40:21 PM
http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2015/20150107160400.htm

Funding for a new interchange in Norristown has been approved, according to the local media, earliest expected completion is 2020.

Quote
The PA Turnpike Commission (PTC) announced today that it has identified funding needed to construct a new interchange joining the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Interstate 276) with the Lafayette Street Extension in Montgomery County. Turnpike commissioners recently committed $45 million to construct a full on/off connection to be located between the existing Valley Forge and Norristown exits.

Opening (and most of construction) will come after planned conversion to AET. That and the limited space available between the Turnpike and the tracks makes me wonder if they'll just built a diamond with AET equipment on the ramps.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 09, 2015, 03:08:18 PM
http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2015/20150107160400.htm

Funding for a new interchange in Norristown has been approved, according to the local media, earliest expected completion is 2020.

Quote
The PA Turnpike Commission (PTC) announced today that it has identified funding needed to construct a new interchange joining the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Interstate 276) with the Lafayette Street Extension in Montgomery County. Turnpike commissioners recently committed $45 million to construct a full on/off connection to be located between the existing Valley Forge and Norristown exits.

Opening (and most of construction) will come after planned conversion to AET. That and the limited space available between the Turnpike and the tracks makes me wonder if they'll just built a diamond with AET equipment on the ramps.

I've said it before: They've built too much infrastructure for AET ramps.  There's no reason to built lane dividers for EZ Pass only setups.  The EZ Pass box can be set up over the single lane ramp as it takes off from (or approaches) the mainline highway, then the ramp can split into 2 lanes further downstream. Example: This ramp on DE 1 ( http://goo.gl/maps/Qr1W2 ) has an EZ Pass transponder over the single lane.  Take it out of GSV, and you'll see the ramp widens to 2 lanes.   Instead, you get this on the PA Turnpike: http://goo.gl/maps/dOdgc .  Again, way too much stuff. 

The amount of money the PA Turnpike has wasted on these ramps in regards to EZ Pass is huge. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on January 09, 2015, 03:32:58 PM
The new AET exit coming to the Northeast Extension looks more like a nod to future AET implementations, versus ones they built for other roadways. Some pics on the project website: http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/Rt903AEI/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 09, 2015, 05:44:02 PM
The new AET exit coming to the Northeast Extension looks more like a nod to future AET implementations, versus ones they built for other roadways. Some pics on the project website: http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/Rt903AEI/

I love how PTC has such a boastful tone about this project, yet the I-95/I-276 Bristol interchange project is dragging-on at a pace that can be described as slow, slower and slowest. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Takumi on January 09, 2015, 06:03:39 PM
Possibly OT: Road & Track article about the bypassed Laurel Hill Tunnel's use as a wind tunnel.
http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/the-secret-racing-test-tunnel-no-one-wants-to-talk-abou-1678596274
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on January 09, 2015, 07:32:02 PM
The new AET exit coming to the Northeast Extension looks more like a nod to future AET implementations, versus ones they built for other roadways. Some pics on the project website: http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/Rt903AEI/

I love how PTC has such a boastful tone about this project, yet the I-95/I-276 Bristol interchange project is dragging-on at a pace that can be described as slow, slower and slowest.

The Route 903 project has been going on for quite a while, it started as a design/build project around 2010, if I recall correctly, and they built half the overpass. It was supposed to open in 2012. Certainly November 2014. Err, January 2015...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ysuindy on January 30, 2015, 10:21:02 AM
An Indianapolis Star story that includes some discussion of Indy Car's use of the Laurel Hill Tunnel.  Not sure anything new in this story, but passing along for anyone who might find it of interest

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/2015/01/29/deflate-gate-just-one-many-examples-rules-manipulation-sports/22534859/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/2015/01/29/deflate-gate-just-one-many-examples-rules-manipulation-sports/22534859/)

Quote
Ganassi Racing built a secret indoor facility a decade ago. For years, Chip Ganassi and his associates denied the existence of the converted tunnel east of Pittsburgh, but it's not only there for straight-line running, it's now an approved IndyCar testing facility.

The Laurel Hill Tunnel was created in the late 1800s for a railway that was never finished. It later became part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. However, the popularity of the four-lane roadway eventually caused too much congestion at the two-lane, nearly mile-long tunnel, and in the late 1960s it was again abandoned.

How Ganassi came to control the tunnel and the extent of its usage remain part of its mystery, but there is no doubt that having a controlled environment to simulate actual racecars is a significant advantage, especially given the testing limits.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 02, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
TribLive.com: Trucker from Indiana charged with evading $23K in turnpike tolls (http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/7801820-74/ponjevic-turnpike-plate)

Quote
An Indiana state truck driver allegedly used the Pennsylvania Turnpike 146 times without paying fares totaling more than $23,680, according to court documents.

Quote
Abid Ponjevic, 57, of Avon, was held for trial Wednesday on charges of altered license plate, a registration plate violation and fare evasion by East Huntingdon District Judge Charles Moore.

Quote
A total 145 more counts of fare evasion were filed against Ponjevic as summary offenses for unpaid toll tickets that state police said they found in his cab when Ponjevic was arrested in July.

Quote
Ponjevic, an independent trucker who was born in Bosnia, was stopped about 9:20 p.m. on July 21 after he went through an E-ZPass lane at the New Stanton interchange with the first two digits of his front license plate covered with duct tape, state police Cpl. Charles Seilhamer testified.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: LPCJr on May 15, 2015, 08:52:29 PM
I noticed new advisory signs on curves between Downingtown and Malvern.  Some 60, some 65.  A 65 advisory in a 65 zone doesn't make a lot of sense.  Could this imply a forthcoming increase in the limit from 65 to 70 on this stretch?  It would certainly be appropriate.  When it is not rush hour, one can comfortably handle this stretch at 75-80.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2015, 10:36:02 PM
I noticed new advisory signs on curves between Downingtown and Malvern.  Some 60, some 65.  A 65 advisory in a 65 zone doesn't make a lot of sense.  Could this imply a forthcoming increase in the limit from 65 to 70 on this stretch?  It would certainly be appropriate.  When it is not rush hour, one can comfortably handle this stretch at 75-80.

Even though the speed limit is XX, if the 85th percentile speed is well above that, they may post an advisory speed equal to the actual speed limit to encourage motorists to slow down a bit for the curve. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 15, 2015, 11:10:15 PM
If so, that would be new. I don't recall ever seeing that in Pennsylvania. Having worked for PennDOT, it hasn't been PennDOT policy that I know of, at least to date.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on May 15, 2015, 11:52:11 PM
I noticed new advisory signs on curves between Downingtown and Malvern.  Some 60, some 65.  A 65 advisory in a 65 zone doesn't make a lot of sense.  Could this imply a forthcoming increase in the limit from 65 to 70 on this stretch?  It would certainly be appropriate.  When it is not rush hour, one can comfortably handle this stretch at 75-80.

They did this just before they posted the first 70 mph segment.  Seems like it's an indicator that the segment you were on will become 70 mph soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 16, 2015, 09:54:59 AM
I noticed new advisory signs on curves between Downingtown and Malvern.  Some 60, some 65.  A 65 advisory in a 65 zone doesn't make a lot of sense.  Could this imply a forthcoming increase in the limit from 65 to 70 on this stretch?  It would certainly be appropriate.  When it is not rush hour, one can comfortably handle this stretch at 75-80.

They did this just before they posted the first 70 mph segment.  Seems like it's an indicator that the segment you were on will become 70 mph soon.

Agreed - I saw these advisory signs near Lancaster right before they announced the higher speed limit on that stretch.  I'm surprised they would post 70 MPH so close to Philly, but they did say the increase could be systemwide.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2015, 02:23:56 PM
I noticed new advisory signs on curves between Downingtown and Malvern.  Some 60, some 65.  A 65 advisory in a 65 zone doesn't make a lot of sense.  Could this imply a forthcoming increase in the limit from 65 to 70 on this stretch?  It would certainly be appropriate.  When it is not rush hour, one can comfortably handle this stretch at 75-80.

They did this just before they posted the first 70 mph segment.  Seems like it's an indicator that the segment you were on will become 70 mph soon.

Agreed - I saw these advisory signs near Lancaster right before they announced the higher speed limit on that stretch.  I'm surprised they would post 70 MPH so close to Philly, but they did say the increase could be systemwide.

The reconstructed and widened section of I-476 (Turnpike Northeast Extension) between I-276 and Exit 31 (Pa. 63, Lansdale) is three lanes each way, with left and right-side shoulders, and is IMO entirely appropriate for a 70 MPH limit. 

Not clear to me how far north the PTC is going to take the widening of the Northeast Extension (to Exit 56 (U.S. 22, Lehigh Valley Thruway near Allentown perhaps), but it seems to me that it could be posted 70 MPH when the work is completed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 16, 2015, 10:43:30 PM
The highest actual speeds between Harrisburg and the Delaware River Bridge are between the Valley Forge and Bensalem interchanges. With the law restricting the higher limit to so-called rural areas only being no longer in effect, the PTC and PennDOT have both said they will consider 70 mph for non-rural stretches, specifically this stretch.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 17, 2015, 12:21:31 AM
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on May 17, 2015, 02:50:00 AM
The highest actual speeds between Harrisburg and the Delaware River Bridge are between the Valley Forge and Bensalem interchanges. With the law restricting the higher limit to so-called rural areas only being no longer in effect, the PTC and PennDOT have both said they will consider 70 mph for non-rural stretches, specifically this stretch.

When did PennDOT do that? I hope it was recently, because there are some Interstate segments in Pennsylvania that have heinously underposted speed limits. They include, but might not be limited to:


I-70 between Breezewood and the Maryland state line
I-79 between Washington and Cranberry Township
I-90
I-99 between State College and I-80


Quite frankly, the only Interstates that should have 55 MPH limits are the substandard ones in urban areas. Pennsylvania reminds me a lot of the Carolinas, with widely variable speed limits. At least the Interstates in Pennsylvania aren't as heavily patrolled as they are in the Carolinas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 17, 2015, 07:20:49 AM
With the higher limit in rural areas, on the Turnpike you had the irony of the highest measured speeds in areas with the lowest posted limits and vice versa.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 17, 2015, 12:29:33 PM
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown

I'll take it!  The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on May 17, 2015, 01:18:19 PM
The highest actual speeds between Harrisburg and the Delaware River Bridge are between the Valley Forge and Bensalem interchanges. With the law restricting the higher limit to so-called rural areas only being no longer in effect, the PTC and PennDOT have both said they will consider 70 mph for non-rural stretches, specifically this stretch.

When did PennDOT do that? I hope it was recently, because there are some Interstate segments in Pennsylvania that have heinously underposted speed limits. They include, but might not be limited to:


I-70 between Breezewood and the Maryland state line
I-79 between Washington and Cranberry Township
I-90
I-99 between State College and I-80


Quite frankly, the only Interstates that should have 55 MPH limits are the substandard ones in urban areas. Pennsylvania reminds me a lot of the Carolinas, with widely variable speed limits. At least the Interstates in Pennsylvania aren't as heavily patrolled as they are in the Carolinas.

I-90 won't go up that much. The asinine, unnecessary 55 section in Erie is a cash cow for them. I-79 could use a 70 MPH limit from I-279 to a little south of US 20. All of I-80 excluding Stroudsburg could be 70, as could US 15/future I-99 north of Williamsport.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 17, 2015, 02:04:19 PM
I-90 won't go up that much. The asinine, unnecessary 55 section in Erie is a cash cow for them. I-79 could use a 70 MPH limit from I-279 to a little south of US 20. All of I-80 excluding Stroudsburg could be 70, as could US 15/future I-99 north of Williamsport.

At least for now, one section of Pennsylvania's Interstate highway network that should not have a higher posted speed limit is I-70 between Washington (I-79) and New Stanton (I-76, Pennsylvania Turnpike).

I did see that PennDOT was starting a project to do some work along this stretch the last time I was by there (September 2014), but even by PennDOT standards, that is a terrible section of freeway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on May 17, 2015, 02:29:13 PM
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown

I'll take it!  The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown

I'll take it!  The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?
Better question how come there is only one control city for PA 63?  Remember there is a space included in the sign for two cities or places, yet it uses the redundant "Landsdale" for both the name and destination.  If there is no other being used or planned to be used, then make a smaller sign.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 17, 2015, 07:29:47 PM
The asinine, unnecessary 55 section in Erie is a cash cow for them.

If by "them," you mean PennDOT, actually the funds from speeding and other fines collected from citations issued by the PA State Police (which is the only force which patrols PA's interstates) goes into the state coffers, not to PennDOT or the PTC. PennDOT and the PTC don't set the speed limit based on how much they think they can collect from speeders. (Local municipalities may do this despite its illegality.) PennDOT sets the limits on the advice of its traffic engineers, within the restrictions of state law (like that which previously restricted the limit to 55 in built-up areas).

I suspect the 55 mph stretch through the Erie area fell into this category. Perhaps it will eventually now be raised.

Let me summarize (stop me if you've heard this): Previous PA law allowed the PTC and PennDOT to set the speed limit as high as 65 in rural areas at the agencies' discretion (based on safety of course) and limited them to 55 in built-up areas. Recent legislation allows both agencies to set the limit up to 70 at their discretion anywhere they see fit, including built-up areas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on May 17, 2015, 07:57:01 PM
I-78 from Hamburg to Fogelsville is rural, but the last time I drove it was 55 mph.  So I can understand why I-90 is totally 55 as that section, I imagine, must be more built up than west of Allentown is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on May 17, 2015, 08:15:40 PM
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown

I'll take it!  The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown

I'll take it!  The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?
Better question how come there is only one control city for PA 63?  Remember there is a space included in the sign for two cities or places, yet it uses the redundant "Landsdale" for both the name and destination.  If there is no other being used or planned to be used, then make a smaller sign.

This was actually brought up by the residents of Kulpsville in 2012... see http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/07/11/residents-of-kulpsville-pa-say-turnpikes-lansdale-exit-is-really-theirs/

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on May 17, 2015, 09:01:56 PM
Not clear to me how far north the PTC is going to take the widening of the Northeast Extension...

According to the Morning Call (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/warrior/mc-road-warrior-turnpike-wider-20140703-column.html), there are reasonably firm plans to go up as far as Quakertown, intentions to go to Lehigh Valley, and perhaps the possibility of going further, depending on the availability of funds.


The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

The Turnpike’s other recent reconstructions have been rather dramatic, too. I drove the length of the mainline from Harrisburg to the Ohio line last year for the first time in several years, and the many rebuilt sections were startlingly unfamiliar–it felt like a completely different highway.

I have mixed feelings about it, too, because there was a fertile period in my roadgeeking life when I lived in Harrisburg and drove long distances on the Turnpike regularly. And being engrossed in the Turnpike’s history, looking at old photos, etc., driving it in those days (early-mid 2000s) still evoked a sense of connection to the highway’s earliest days–with all of the original stylized concrete arch overpasses, wayside tables, colonial house service plazas, etc. With most of those things now gone, the highway is progressively getting more much modern, but unfortunately, it feels much less unique, too.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?

Probably the same reason why Exit 226 is Carlisle and not Middlesex–more populous municipality nearby with a more recognizable name. “Kulpsville”  isn’t a municipality of any kind, just a Census Designated Place with a post office, so any claim it might have on the interchange name is tenuous at best.


Better question how come there is only one control city for PA 63?  Remember there is a space included in the sign for two cities or places, yet it uses the redundant "Landsdale" for both the name and destination.  If there is no other being used or planned to be used, then make a smaller sign.

The redundancy isn’t really unique–just look at Irwin, Somerset, or Lebanon-Lancaster for examples of that. I have always wondered about the blank space, though. I seem to recall that it was there on old button copy signs decades ago, then the blank space was retained on new retroreflective signs in FHWA type, then retained yet again on newer signs in Clearview.

The obvious choice for a second destination would be “Harleysville” .

There had been a similar situation for years on I-180 at the interchange with PA 87 near Montoursville. All of the original button copy signs listed “Montoursville”  with a space beneath for a second destination. I could never figure out why–none of the towns north of there were worth mentioning. But when the signs were replaced recently, the destination was changed to the street name (Loyalsock Ave).

(http://www.m-plex.com/roads/pamplex/treichard/i180e_us220n_pa87exit134miles.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on May 17, 2015, 09:21:07 PM
The highest actual speeds between Harrisburg and the Delaware River Bridge are between the Valley Forge and Bensalem interchanges. With the law restricting the higher limit to so-called rural areas only being no longer in effect, the PTC and PennDOT have both said they will consider 70 mph for non-rural stretches, specifically this stretch.

When did PennDOT do that? I hope it was recently, because there are some Interstate segments in Pennsylvania that have heinously underposted speed limits. They include, but might not be limited to:


I-70 between Breezewood and the Maryland state line
I-79 between Washington and Cranberry Township
I-90
I-99 between State College and I-80


Quite frankly, the only Interstates that should have 55 MPH limits are the substandard ones in urban areas. Pennsylvania reminds me a lot of the Carolinas, with widely variable speed limits. At least the Interstates in Pennsylvania aren't as heavily patrolled as they are in the Carolinas.

I-90 won't go up that much. The asinine, unnecessary 55 section in Erie is a cash cow for them.

Agreed.  For a town the size of Erie to have such looong stretches of "urban" speed limit zones on it's two major interstates is ridiculous!  The traffic on I-79 -- especially between I-90 and US-20 -- is so sparse, giving it a 55 MPH limit is a joke.

And I-90's zone is a joke as most everything south of the freeway's 55 MPH zone is rural.  With the exception of US-19/Peach Street, or as I like to call it:  The "Peach Pit" due to all the poorly timed traffic lights along it, you have to go north a couple of miles or so before you get to actual bona-fide bedroom communities with sizable street grids or subdivisions.  Hell, I-90 never comes close to Erie's city limits -- another reason to kill off the 55 zone.

One of the jokes I heard about the I-90 stretch thru PA is that 50% of it is a 55 MPH zone and the other 50% is always under construction with the speed limit even less.  I guess they really want you to spend as much time in their little corner of the Commonwealth as possible.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on May 17, 2015, 10:18:42 PM
The highest actual speeds between Harrisburg and the Delaware River Bridge are between the Valley Forge and Bensalem interchanges. With the law restricting the higher limit to so-called rural areas only being no longer in effect, the PTC and PennDOT have both said they will consider 70 mph for non-rural stretches, specifically this stretch.

When did PennDOT do that? I hope it was recently, because there are some Interstate segments in Pennsylvania that have heinously underposted speed limits. They include, but might not be limited to:


I-70 between Breezewood and the Maryland state line
I-79 between Washington and Cranberry Township
I-90
I-99 between State College and I-80


Quite frankly, the only Interstates that should have 55 MPH limits are the substandard ones in urban areas. Pennsylvania reminds me a lot of the Carolinas, with widely variable speed limits. At least the Interstates in Pennsylvania aren't as heavily patrolled as they are in the Carolinas.

I-90 won't go up that much. The asinine, unnecessary 55 section in Erie is a cash cow for them.

Agreed.  For a town the size of Erie to have such looong stretches of "urban" speed limit zones on it's two major interstates is ridiculous!  The traffic on I-79 -- especially between I-90 and US-20 -- is so sparse, giving it a 55 MPH limit is a joke.

And I-90's zone is a joke as most everything south of the freeway's 55 MPH zone is rural.  With the exception of US-19/Peach Street, or as I like to call it:  The "Peach Pit" due to all the poorly timed traffic lights along it, you have to go north a couple of miles or so before you get to actual bona-fide bedroom communities with sizable street grids or subdivisions.  Hell, I-90 never comes close to Erie's city limits -- another reason to kill off the 55 zone.

One of the jokes I heard about the I-90 stretch thru PA is that 50% of it is a 55 MPH zone and the other 50% is always under construction with the speed limit even less.  I guess they really want you to spend as much time in their little corner of the Commonwealth as possible.

I was on there a couple months ago and, for the first time in many years, there's no construction in Pennsylvania. Heck, there's little of anything between Cleveland and the New York line for the first time in nearly 2 decades.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on May 17, 2015, 10:36:10 PM
It's still early in the construction season...Give PennDOT some time!   :bigass:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on May 18, 2015, 03:49:58 AM
It's still early in the construction season...Give PennDOT some time!   :bigass:
Exactly!  Memorial Day weekend is right around the corner.  PennDOT seems to love closing a lane for several miles right before a holiday weekend.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2015, 07:54:36 AM
I-90 won't go up that much. The asinine, unnecessary 55 section in Erie is a cash cow for them.

When statements like this are made, is there any truth to it?  This seems to be a universal excuse, often times without any substance to back it up.  Do the police really congregate on I-90, or does traffic seem to flow fairly fast without much enforcement?  And the million dollar question: What is the speed at which the cops will start stopping people? 

"I saw someone pulled over" isn't really answering the question, because you don't know if that person was going 63 in a 55, 82 in a 55, had mechanical problems and the cop pulled up to help, or any other numerous possibilities as to why a civilian car and cop car were on the side of the road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 18, 2015, 10:14:27 AM
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown
That is indeed a new development (to me anyways).  The current widening contract, now under construction, only goes as far north as the Lansdale interchange.

Better question how come there is only one control city for PA 63?  Remember there is a space included in the sign for two cities or places, yet it uses the redundant "Lansdale" (intentional spelling correction) for both the name and destination.  If there is no other being used or planned to be used, then make a smaller sign.
I seem to recall that it was there on old button copy signs decades ago, then the blank space was retained on new retroreflective signs in FHWA type, then retained yet again on newer signs in Clearview.

The obvious choice for a second destination would be Harleysville
One has to wonder if the space (at least for the old, long-gone button-copy BGS') was originally reserved for Green Lane (where PA 63 ends at PA 29).

It should be noted that there are plans to split/reconfigure the Lansdale interchange into 2 separate exit ramps: one for EZ-Pass only (proposed Exit 31A), the other for the conventional cash/ticket booths (existing Exit 31/proposed Exit 31B).  The signage plans I saw (from a couple of years ago) do indeed include Kulpsville as well as Lansdale (interchange name/listed destination redundancy will be retained) and Harleysville on the main BGS boards.  Harleysville will be listed above Kulpsville.  The Lansdale interchange name banner will remain but it will be the same height (16", 5-W Clearview font) as the destination listings and will also be in mixed-case lettering.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on May 18, 2015, 12:05:11 PM
I-90 won't go up that much. The asinine, unnecessary 55 section in Erie is a cash cow for them.

When statements like this are made, is there any truth to it?  This seems to be a universal excuse, often times without any substance to back it up.  Do the police really congregate on I-90, or does traffic seem to flow fairly fast without much enforcement?  And the million dollar question: What is the speed at which the cops will start stopping people? 

"I saw someone pulled over" isn't really answering the question, because you don't know if that person was going 63 in a 55, 82 in a 55, had mechanical problems and the cop pulled up to help, or any other numerous possibilities as to why a civilian car and cop car were on the side of the road.

Typically moves 55-60 and there's almost always a cop sitting there with the radar gun out. Get much above 60 and you might get stopped. I've been going 60, been passed by someone going slightly faster than I was driving, and seen that person get pulled over not far ahead.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 18, 2015, 01:14:33 PM
I noticed new advisory signs on curves between Downingtown and Malvern.  Some 60, some 65.  A 65 advisory in a 65 zone doesn't make a lot of sense.  Could this imply a forthcoming increase in the limit from 65 to 70 on this stretch?  It would certainly be appropriate.  When it is not rush hour, one can comfortably handle this stretch at 75-80.

I drove the stretch from Downingtown west to Morgantown yesterday, and there were curve signs with a 60 advisory speed on that stretch as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on May 18, 2015, 02:12:26 PM
At least for now, one section of Pennsylvania's Interstate highway network that should not have a higher posted speed limit is I-70 between Washington (I-79) and New Stanton (I-76, Pennsylvania Turnpike).

I did see that PennDOT was starting a project to do some work along this stretch the last time I was by there (September 2014), but even by PennDOT standards, that is a terrible section of freeway.

The Speers-Belle Vernon Bridge is fucking terrible. They need to replace it yesterday.

It appears that PennDOT is reconstructing the highway and reconfiguring the interchanges closest to I-79 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike first, which is understandable, because any work done between the Mon-Fayette Expressway and PA 51 will require the replacement of the Speers-Belle Vernon Bridge, and probably the Smithton Hi-Level Bridge as well.

The completed work on I-70 so far has been excellent, with long acceleration and deceleration lanes at the interchanges, and 4' interior shoulders on each side.


According to the Morning Call (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/warrior/mc-road-warrior-turnpike-wider-20140703-column.html), there are reasonably firm plans to go up as far as Quakertown, intentions to go to Lehigh Valley, and perhaps the possibility of going further, depending on the availability of funds.

...

The Turnpike’s other recent reconstructions have been rather dramatic, too. I drove the length of the mainline from Harrisburg to the Ohio line last year for the first time in several years, and the many rebuilt sections were startlingly unfamiliar–it felt like a completely different highway.

I have mixed feelings about it, too, because there was a fertile period in my roadgeeking life when I lived in Harrisburg and drove long distances on the Turnpike regularly. And being engrossed in the Turnpike’s history, looking at old photos, etc., driving it in those days (early-mid 2000s) still evoked a sense of connection to the highway’s earliest days–with all of the original stylized concrete arch overpasses, wayside tables, colonial house service plazas, etc. With most of those things now gone, the highway is progressively getting more much modern, but unfortunately, it feels much less unique, too.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike is becoming a superhighway once again, segment by segment. If that means it loses its uniqueness, then so be it. Nobody can bitch about how narrow and outdated the Turnpike is anymore. Shutting people the fuck up is worth sacrificing uniqueness for.


Typically moves 55-60 and there's almost always a cop sitting there with the radar gun out. Get much above 60 and you might get stopped. I've been going 60, been passed by someone going slightly faster than I was driving, and seen that person get pulled over not far ahead.

What's funny is, speed enforcement in Pennsylvania has always struck me as lax compared to some of its neighboring states (Ohio and Maryland being the biggest culprits). I guess there had to be a "got'cha" segment somewhere. :ded:

On a related note, I think it's fucking awesome how the state police are the only law enforcement agency allowed by law to run radar in Pennsylvania. :biggrin:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on May 18, 2015, 02:24:49 PM
The redundancy isn’t really unique–just look at Irwin, Somerset, or Lebanon-Lancaster for examples of that. I have always wondered about the blank space, though. I seem to recall that it was there on old button copy signs decades ago, then the blank space was retained on new retroreflective signs in FHWA type, then retained yet again on newer signs in Clearview.

Or how about Norristown? Literally, the sign repeats itself. Norristown/Norristown.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 18, 2015, 02:43:32 PM
The redundancy isn’t really unique–just look at Irwin, Somerset, or Lebanon-Lancaster for examples of that. I have always wondered about the blank space, though. I seem to recall that it was there on old button copy signs decades ago, then the blank space was retained on new retroreflective signs in FHWA type, then retained yet again on newer signs in Clearview.

Or how about Norristown? Literally, the sign repeats itself. Norristown/Norristown.
With the recent signage replacements along I-276; that redundancy now only exists for the westbound exit signs.  PTC changed (long overdue IMHO) the legends for the eastbound exit BGS' Scroll down to Reply #955 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=419.950).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on May 18, 2015, 04:10:46 PM
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown
That is indeed a new development (to me anyways).  The current widening contract, now under construction, only goes as far north as the Lansdale interchange.

The PTC website has two sites dedicated to the widening from Lansdale to Quakertown.
    Southern portion: https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA31toA38/
    Northern portion: https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA38toA44/index.html[/list][/list]
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on May 19, 2015, 12:13:29 PM
The redundancy isn’t really unique–just look at Irwin, Somerset, or Lebanon-Lancaster for examples of that. I have always wondered about the blank space, though. I seem to recall that it was there on old button copy signs decades ago, then the blank space was retained on new retroreflective signs in FHWA type, then retained yet again on newer signs in Clearview.

Or how about Norristown? Literally, the sign repeats itself. Norristown/Norristown.
With the recent signage replacements along I-276; that redundancy now only exists for the westbound exit signs.  PTC changed (long overdue IMHO) the legends for the eastbound exit BGS' Scroll down to Reply #955 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=419.950).

I did not know they changed it EB. I drove through there WB in March and the signs were still just Norristown/Norristown.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on May 19, 2015, 06:24:54 PM
It should be noted that there are plans to split/reconfigure the Lansdale interchange into 2 separate exit ramps: one for EZ-Pass only (proposed Exit 31A), the other for the conventional cash/ticket booths (existing Exit 31/proposed Exit 31B).  The signage plans I saw (from a couple of years ago) do indeed include Kulpsville as well as Lansdale (interchange name/listed destination redundancy will be retained) on the main BGS boards.

They provided this image as what the new ramps will look like, no indication of exit numbers though... (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpa20toa31/lib/img/overview/lansdale-interchange.jpg)

auxiliary ramps
Three auxiliary ramps are being constructed:
one ramp from Towamencin
and two E-ZPass-only ramps
(one entering southbound I-476 from
Old Forty Foot Road and one exiting
I-476 northbound to Sumneytown Pike).


Project newsletter: https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA20toA31/lib/pdf/Winter_2015_Newsletter.pdf

If they do opt for suffixes, it will be the first ones since Mid-County (Exit 20) was Exit 25A, numbered as a main-line exit when it opened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on May 19, 2015, 07:13:45 PM
The redundancy isn’t really unique–just look at Irwin, Somerset, or Lebanon-Lancaster for examples of that. I have always wondered about the blank space, though. I seem to recall that it was there on old button copy signs decades ago, then the blank space was retained on new retroreflective signs in FHWA type, then retained yet again on newer signs in Clearview.

Or how about Norristown? Literally, the sign repeats itself. Norristown/Norristown.
Oh I know that one very well, but at least there is no blank space for a second control city there like at Landsdale. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 20, 2015, 07:13:47 AM
I did not know they changed it EB. I drove through there WB in March and the signs were still just Norristown/Norristown.
The reason why the westbound signs didn't change was because there's a separate, direct exit ramp to I-476 South just prior to that exit.  Eastbounders (that did not already exit off at Valley Forge to continue along I-76 East to I-476) wanting to get on I-476 South have to use the Norristown exit.  As I stated earlier; this change (for the eastbound signs) should've been done when the I-476/Blue Route connection was first completed in the early 90s.

Oh I know that one very well, but at least there is no blank space for a second control city there like at Landsdale.
It should be noted that when Germantown Pike was still part of US 422; Philadelphia was included with Norristown for the destination listings.  One old BGS along I-276 eastbound survived (w/the US 422 shield removed/greened out) into the late 90s/early 2000s.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: machias on May 20, 2015, 08:04:09 AM
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown

I'll take it!  The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?
According to the PTC website, the only publicaly announced widening on the NE extension is up to Quakertown

I'll take it!  The improvement on the one section that's complete between I-276 and Lansdale is pretty dramatic.

On a side note, why is Exit 31 (Pa. 63) signed Lansdale when it is in Kulpsville?
Better question how come there is only one control city for PA 63?  Remember there is a space included in the sign for two cities or places, yet it uses the redundant "Landsdale" for both the name and destination.  If there is no other being used or planned to be used, then make a smaller sign.

That extra line has been on three generations of that sign.  I keep waiting for someone to add something.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 20, 2015, 05:05:05 PM
It should be noted that there are plans to split/reconfigure the Lansdale interchange into 2 separate exit ramps: one for EZ-Pass only (proposed Exit 31A), the other for the conventional cash/ticket booths (existing Exit 31/proposed Exit 31B).  The signage plans I saw (from a couple of years ago) do indeed include Kulpsville as well as Lansdale (interchange name/listed destination redundancy will be retained) and Harleysville on the main BGS boards.  Harleysville will be listed above Kulpsville.  The Lansdale interchange name banner will remain but it will be the same height (16", 5-W Clearview font) as the destination listings and will also be in mixed-case lettering.

They provided this image as what the new ramps will look like, no indication of exit numbers though... (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpa20toa31/lib/img/overview/lansdale-interchange.jpg)

auxiliary ramps
Three auxiliary ramps are being constructed:
one ramp from Towamencin
and two E-ZPass-only ramps
(one entering southbound I-476 from
Old Forty Foot Road and one exiting
I-476 northbound to Sumneytown Pike).


Project newsletter: https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA20toA31/lib/pdf/Winter_2015_Newsletter.pdf

If they do opt for suffixes, it will be the first ones since Mid-County (Exit 20) was Exit 25A, numbered as a main-line exit when it opened.
Ramp F-1 in that diagram will be the new Exit 31A.  The PTC signage plans I saw (on PTC Construction Plan format) shows such (note: upon re-examining the plans, I made an error in terms of the destination listings and modifed my earlier post per above).  Given that this new ramp is close to the existing interchange; assigning it, and redesignating the existing ramp as Exit 31B, seems to be a no-brainer.  Note: based in the above-graphic, there will still be only one exit ramp from I-476 southbound.

PTC will probably release the new exit number information on its public website when the work gets closer to completion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on May 24, 2015, 01:32:03 AM
So, as everyone knows, 30 years have passed since PTC rehabbed their service plazas. Now it's time to decide the new vendors when Valley Forge and North Midway reopen. I'm gonna laugh if they all came crawiling back to HoJo's.... if they do.... :banghead: :pan:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on May 29, 2015, 11:36:25 PM
The MP 242 to 245 widening project has started. Looks like crews have been clearing  the ROW on both sides for about a week now.
http://www.witf.org/news/2015/05/turnpike-widening-project-in-midstate-kicks-off-this-morning.php (http://www.witf.org/news/2015/05/turnpike-widening-project-in-midstate-kicks-off-this-morning.php)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on June 01, 2015, 08:14:36 PM
The highest actual speeds between Harrisburg and the Delaware River Bridge are between the Valley Forge and Bensalem interchanges. With the law restricting the higher limit to so-called rural areas only being no longer in effect, the PTC and PennDOT have both said they will consider 70 mph for non-rural stretches, specifically this stretch.

When did PennDOT do that? I hope it was recently, because there are some Interstate segments in Pennsylvania that have heinously underposted speed limits. They include, but might not be limited to:


I-70 between Breezewood and the Maryland state line
I-79 between Washington and Cranberry Township
I-90
I-99 between State College and I-80


Quite frankly, the only Interstates that should have 55 MPH limits are the substandard ones in urban areas. Pennsylvania reminds me a lot of the Carolinas, with widely variable speed limits. At least the Interstates in Pennsylvania aren't as heavily patrolled as they are in the Carolinas.
Nah, towards the end of months, there will be 5 million police officers strolling the interstates to fulfill their quotas. It basically turns the PA Turnpike and the rest of the state into speed traps every inch.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 02, 2015, 07:33:36 PM
Is Highway 43 ever going to be extended further north, or will it permanently dead-end at Exit 54?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DeaconG on June 02, 2015, 08:22:34 PM
Is Highway 43 ever going to be extended further north, or will it permanently dead-end at Exit 54?

I wouldn't expect that road to be built any time soon; at one time the state was considering a PPP to build the road and that the cost was probably going to be north of a billion dollars (which the state doesn't have), it was mentioned on their old website but the new one just says that it will continue to work on it as funding is available, which most likely means never. I sure would like to see it happen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on June 03, 2015, 06:24:46 AM
Is Highway 43 ever going to be extended further north, or will it permanently dead-end at Exit 54?

I think they'll start moving forward with it once the South Beltway is completed. They're currently building the segment from U.S. 22 to I-79, which should be finished in 2018, I believe. After that, they'll still need to build the segment from I-79 to the Mon-Fayette Expressway. In other words, it'll probably be at least 10 years before anything is done about the Mon-Fayette Expressway.

Speaking of the Mon-Fayette Expressway, one thing I'd change is to have the Monroeville spur end at the Pennsylvania Turnpike instead of I-376. That way, eastbound Turnpike traffic and northbound Mon-Fayette traffic won't have to use I-376. Besides, there's very little development near Thompson Run, so extending the Mon-Fayette Expressway farther north wouldn't impact many people.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on June 03, 2015, 11:49:35 AM
With as long as it looks like it will take to wrap up 43 into the city, I almost wish they would propose and start the enviro process on extending the SoBeltway to the PA Turnpike/Irwin exit. Such a facility, along with the rest of the So Beltway would give even more beneficial relief to the Parkways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 03, 2015, 06:52:00 PM
Is Highway 43 ever going to be extended further north, or will it permanently dead-end at Exit 54?

Personally, I'd say the odds favor it never making it north of Exit 54, though I wouldn't be that surprised if it were to make it somewhere north.  I could see the eastern leg heading to Monroeville actually getting built at some point in the future, or maybe even just extending it to the Duquesne / West Mifflin area.

As for the spur into the City, I feel seeing that built in my lifetime (if ever) is more likely than seeing the sun rise in the west, but a little less likely than seeing true peace in the Middle East.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: JawnwoodS96 on June 03, 2015, 11:56:04 PM
Is Highway 43 ever going to be extended further north, or will it permanently dead-end at Exit 54?
Probably in 3001.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on June 05, 2015, 04:32:17 AM
North midway is reopened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on June 10, 2015, 10:17:39 AM
The PTC has announced a public meeting regarding the Great Valley (PA 29) to Valley Forge widening project. From an e-mail from the project manager:
Quote
One of the last remaining pieces of getting this job to construction is permitting.  DEP will be holding a public hearing for the MP 320-326 project on July 14 from 7 pm to 9 pm at the Tredyffrin Township Bldg.  Plans will be available for review beginning at 6:30 pm.

It's interesting to note that the DEP (Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection) is hosting the meeting, not the PTC.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on June 10, 2015, 10:44:00 AM
Is Highway 43 ever going to be extended further north, or will it permanently dead-end at Exit 54?

Personally, I'd say the odds favor it never making it north of Exit 54, though I wouldn't be that surprised if it were to make it somewhere north.  I could see the eastern leg heading to Monroeville actually getting built at some point in the future, or maybe even just extending it to the Duquesne / West Mifflin area.

As for the spur into the City, I feel seeing that built in my lifetime (if ever) is more likely than seeing the sun rise in the west, but a little less likely than seeing true peace in the Middle East.

If it ever is extended the most it probably will ever get to is somewhere near the Allegheny county regional airport. That is more likely then it actually reaching the city but even it going to the Allegheny county regional airport is sketchy
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 10, 2015, 10:53:30 AM
Who in Sam Hill sets the priorities of the Pennsylvania Turnpike?

Seems to be that some of its projects (like a new E-ZPass interchange in the middle of nowhere in the Poconos on I-476) have little merit but get quickly built.  At the same time, it takes decades for projects like the I-95/I-276 interchange to get s-l-o-w-l-y planned, designed and engineered and very s-l-o-w-l-y built.

Similarly, extending Pa. 43 north to the downtown area of Pittsburgh would seem to make loads of sense, in spite of what I think is some NIMBY-type opposition.

And the  PTC will not even talk about eliminating Breezewood.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Nature Boy on June 10, 2015, 11:06:28 AM
Are there monied interests in Breezewood that insist on the status quo? How does that even still exist?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on June 10, 2015, 11:26:12 AM
Local opposition keeps killing projects to fill the gap, so PennDOT and PTC gave up and just left Breezewood as is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 10, 2015, 11:33:30 AM
The Breezewood issue isn't just PTC; it's also PennDOT. 

Which agency is going to spend the money to fix it? By rights, both should.

But, how many people from the motoring public get upset about this issue?  Overall, probably very few.  They're probably more upset about routine congestion on an otherwise free-flowing highway.  There's probably more people here in this group that get upset just the principle of it than have actually been thru it. 

It should be fixed, because Interstates shouldn't have traffic lights on them.  But then again we have another thread going regarding intersections on interstates in Texas, which is also not supposed to occur.

There are imperfections in the system, but at least they are isolated instances.  It's not like the Feds are bowing to pressure to create more at-grade intersections on the Interstate system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 10, 2015, 12:20:17 PM
The Breezewood issue isn't just PTC; it's also PennDOT. 

Which agency is going to spend the money to fix it? By rights, both should.

But, how many people from the motoring public get upset about this issue?  Overall, probably very few.  They're probably more upset about routine congestion on an otherwise free-flowing highway.  There's probably more people here in this group that get upset just the principle of it than have actually been thru it. 

It should be fixed, because Interstates shouldn't have traffic lights on them.  But then again we have another thread going regarding intersections on interstates in Texas, which is also not supposed to occur.

There are imperfections in the system, but at least they are isolated instances.  It's not like the Feds are bowing to pressure to create more at-grade intersections on the Interstate system.

Agreed that it is a PennDOT and PTC problem.  But Congress could mandate a fix by telling the PTC that the interest on Turnpike bonds will become fully taxable if it fails remediate all of those non-connections between the Turnpike and crossing freeways and expressways.  PTC would have them all (Allegheny Valley, Somerset, Bedford, Breezewood, Carlisle, Pocono, Wyoming Valley, and the badly substandard interchange at Clark's Summit)  fixed in a year or two!

In spite of my hatred of Breezewood, I do not go that way all that frequently.  But I have seen several wrecks there, especially on westbound I-70 (running north as it approaches U.S. 30) when people not familiar with that abomination run up on stopped traffic and rear-end another vehicle, sometimes hard. 

One heavy travel days, the queues to get through Breezewood either way (but especially the eastbound movement) can be long, backing-up out onto the mainline of the eastbound Turnpike. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 10, 2015, 01:25:22 PM
I don't think they can change terms of existing bonds without shareholder approval.  And since the bonds are really subjected to Internal Revenue Service codes regarding tax-free bonds, which generally are separate from Federal Highway Rules, you would have to get the FHWA and IRS to talk to each other about that.

It's also a very slippery slope we don't want to get rolling.  Let's say the Feds do say those bonds become taxable, because we want that interchange fixed.  What's not to say some legislature down the road says "I want the intersection of Main & Broad to be widened in Anytown, USA.  We'll make Anytown's municipal bonds taxable unless they fix that intersection".  It sets up the potential of harming anyone someone can think of to get their way.

The bonds are issued under IRS rules, which apply to a broad spectrum of funding mechanisms for investors of all types across the US, from individuals to large public and private companies and institutions.  It's not just PA or the PA Turnpike that would feel the impact of taxing previously non-taxable bonds; it's your everyday investors that would feel the pain as well.

In the past, the feds have already restricted funding when they wanted their way, such as the 55 NMSL.  We saw how well that worked out.

Of course - I get what you're saying...do something to highly encourage PA/PA Turnpike to fix those interchange areas.  It could be done under existing rules - easily.  Hell, they could throw in money into any federal spending budget specifically for those items.  But overall, when it comes down to it, the Feds seem to be OK with the situation as it is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on June 10, 2015, 01:33:30 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is currently doing preparatory work for the reconstruction and widening of MP 124 to MP 134, and design work for the reconstruction and widening of MP 149 to MP 155. These are two non-contiguous segments of Turnpike. In between is MP 134 to MP 149, which also includes the Bedford interchange (Exit 146). Considering direct, limited-access highway connections have been built with I-376 (Beaver Valley and Monroeville), I-79, I-70 (New Stanton) I-83, I-283, I-176, I-476 and I-78, and a direct, limited-access connection with I-95 is already underway, I wouldn't be surprised if a direct, limited-access connection with I-99 will be in play once they get to reconstructing and widening MP 134 to MP 149. The only Interstate junctions lacking direct, limited-access connections right now are I-99, I-70 (Breezewood), I-81 (Carlisle and Moosic) and I-80. That means 11 of the Turnpike's 17 Interstate junctions are direct with limited access. One by one, they're getting done, so instead of bitching about it every three months, as if it only takes three months to do such a project, maybe people should just shut up and let it happen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 10, 2015, 03:39:39 PM
Agreed that it is a PennDOT and PTC problem.  But Congress could mandate a fix by telling the PTC that the interest on Turnpike bonds will become fully taxable if it fails remediate all of those non-connections between the Turnpike and crossing freeways and expressways.  PTC would have them all (Allegheny Valley, Somerset, Bedford, Breezewood, Carlisle, Pocono, Wyoming Valley, and the badly substandard interchange at Clark's Summit)  fixed in a year or two!

Or they'd just raise the tolls to cover the tax.  A lot of those potential interchanges would be very expensive, and very difficult to get done.  Really, Breezewood is probably the easiest of all those connections to make.  All that's really needed is 2 fairly simple ramps and modifications to bypass US-30.  (Of course, I've seen some interesting more elaborate ideas elsewhere in these forums)

Quote
Hell, they could throw in money into any federal spending budget specifically for those items.  But overall, when it comes down to it, the Feds seem to be OK with the situation as it is.
Quite true.

Considering direct, limited-access highway connections have been built with I-376 (Beaver Valley and Monroeville)

Even the Beaver Valley interchange isn't optimal (and it was totally built by the PTC), as traffic from I-76 wanting to go on I-376 WB (north) has a stop sign to contend with, and a left turn across traffic to get there, to accommodate local access to PA-351
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Stephane Dumas on June 10, 2015, 04:40:29 PM

Even the Beaver Valley interchange isn't optimal (and it was totally built by the PTC), as traffic from I-76 wanting to go on I-376 WB (north) has a stop sign to contend with, and a left turn across traffic to get there, to accommodate local access to PA-351


I wonder, could be possible to replace that stop sign with a roundabout?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 10, 2015, 04:45:22 PM

Even the Beaver Valley interchange isn't optimal (and it was totally built by the PTC), as traffic from I-76 wanting to go on I-376 WB (north) has a stop sign to contend with, and a left turn across traffic to get there, to accommodate local access to PA-351


I wonder, could be possible to replace that stop sign with a roundabout?

It's PA we're dealing with. They'll put a roundabout in, and stick a traffic light above it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on June 10, 2015, 05:53:10 PM
Depending on terrain a PTP to NB 376 lop ramp would be more optimal.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 10, 2015, 07:34:20 PM
Depending on terrain a PTP to NB 376 lop ramp would be more optimal.

Don't know if there's enough traffic to make it worthwhile. Pretty desolate area. If they were going to make everything a direct connection, that's honestly the last one I'd do, just because it's redundant. Next exit west is in Youngstown and the next east is in Cranberry. It's faster to cut the corner in both situations and save the toll, while all but one of the 4 seemingly-major movements at the Beaver Valley interchange is free-flowing. If you want to build a slip ramp to replace that one movement, fine, but I don't think anything more is necessary
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 10, 2015, 10:53:09 PM
Agreed that it is a PennDOT and PTC problem.  But Congress could mandate a fix by telling the PTC that the interest on Turnpike bonds will become fully taxable if it fails remediate all of those non-connections between the Turnpike and crossing freeways and expressways.  PTC would have them all (Allegheny Valley, Somerset, Bedford, Breezewood, Carlisle, Pocono, Wyoming Valley, and the badly substandard interchange at Clark's Summit)  fixed in a year or two!

Or they'd just raise the tolls to cover the tax.  A lot of those potential interchanges would be very expensive, and very difficult to get done.  Really, Breezewood is probably the easiest of all those connections to make.  All that's really needed is 2 fairly simple ramps and modifications to bypass US-30.  (Of course, I've seen some interesting more elaborate ideas elsewhere in these forums)

Breezewood is indeed relatively easy and cheap to remediate.

So is Pocono (build an overpass (where there is currently a signalized intersection)) to avoid the schlock and that fixes it.

I don't think Wyoming Valley is terribly difficult, since that is now outside the "closed" or ticket system.  Same with Clark's Summit.

Somerset and Bedford might be something of a challenge, but not impossible, and probably easier when the PTC transitions to all-electronic toll collection.

Quote
Hell, they could throw in money into any federal spending budget specifically for those items.  But overall, when it comes down to it, the Feds seem to be OK with the situation as it is.
Nobody in Congress (where the pressure has to originate) has a clue or really cares.

Considering direct, limited-access highway connections have been built with I-376 (Beaver Valley and Monroeville)

Even the Beaver Valley interchange isn't optimal (and it was totally built by the PTC), as traffic from I-76 wanting to go on I-376 WB (north) has a stop sign to contend with, and a left turn across traffic to get there, to accommodate local access to PA-351

Wonder why FHWA did not raise objections to that?  Some of their division offices are unwilling to challenge stupid design decisions by the states.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Nature Boy on June 12, 2015, 12:50:53 AM
If Breezewood is so easy and cheap to fix, why won't someone just fix it? It seems like it'd be good PR for the PTC or PennDOT if things got fixed.

I could see someone raising a stink though about job losses when all of the businesses in Breezewood have to close shop because no one would ever stop there otherwise.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on June 12, 2015, 01:19:05 AM
If Breezewood is so easy and cheap to fix, why won't someone just fix it? It seems like it'd be good PR for the PTC or PennDOT if things got fixed.

I could see someone raising a stink though about job losses when all of the businesses in Breezewood have to close shop because no one would ever stop there otherwise.

For all the times I have driven I-70 thru Breezewood, that particular exit on the Pike vs some of the neighboring exits has the best selection of services in quite a distance either way.  Even if they did convert Breezewood to a full interstate-interstate interchange with a secondary exit to/from US-30, I still think a lot of the businesses will continue to thrive as it will still be a "pit stop" for a lot of travelers.  It's not like there are a deluge of exits with boku services within 15 miles of Breezewood on either section of I-70 or I-76 East for that matter.

The biggest Breezewood NIMBYs are probably the businesses that shouldn't be in business there in the first place -- the oldest of the old and/or the ones that charge higher than normal prices for their food, gas and/or lodging. 

I'd be also willing to bet that many of the businesses will gain nearly as many customers as they would stand to lose -- they may lose some of the I-70 thru traffic, but they may gain people who would not/did not stop because they were afraid to stop with all of the current traffic flow & congestion during peak times.

Just my $.02 observation.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on June 12, 2015, 01:45:28 AM
PennDOT and PTC simply gave up on Breezewood - it's a permanent addition to the Interstate system. NIMBYs have stopped the connection, because of the fear of the hard earned cash going down the drain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 12, 2015, 01:09:18 PM

For all the times I have driven I-70 thru Breezewood, that particular exit on the Pike vs some of the neighboring exits has the best selection of services in quite a distance either way.  Even if they did convert Breezewood to a full interstate-interstate interchange with a secondary exit to/from US-30, I still think a lot of the businesses will continue to thrive as it will still be a "pit stop" for a lot of travelers.  It's not like there are a deluge of exits with boku services within 15 miles of Breezewood on either section of I-70 or I-76 East for that matter.

The biggest Breezewood NIMBYs are probably the businesses that shouldn't be in business there in the first place -- the oldest of the old and/or the ones that charge higher than normal prices for their food, gas and/or lodging. 

I'd be also willing to bet that many of the businesses will gain nearly as many customers as they would stand to lose -- they may lose some of the I-70 thru traffic, but they may gain people who would not/did not stop because they were afraid to stop with all of the current traffic flow & congestion during peak times.

Just my $.02 observation.


You might get more stops from I-70 traffic, but I doubt many Turnpike travelers would exit given the "penalty" for exiting and re-entering (i.e. the sum of the two segment tolls is greater than traveling the combined segment without exiting) and the service plazas that bookend Breezewood (both within 10-15 miles of the exit).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 12, 2015, 01:39:07 PM
PennDOT and PTC simply gave up on Breezewood - it's a permanent addition to the Interstate system. NIMBYs have stopped the connection, because of the fear of the hard earned cash going down the drain.

The owners of the land on which the Breezewood schlock sits have been very good about getting Pennsylvania elected officials to not even talk about a remediation.

I drive through Breezewood sometimes, but I never, ever stop to patronize anything.  Instead, I stop in Hancock, Maryland or at one of the Pennsylvania Turnpike service plazas west of Breezewood.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on June 12, 2015, 02:43:54 PM
PennDOT and PTC simply gave up on Breezewood - it's a permanent addition to the Interstate system. NIMBYs have stopped the connection, because of the fear of the hard earned cash going down the drain.

The owners of the land on which the Breezewood schlock sits have been very good about getting Pennsylvania elected officials to not even talk about a remediation.

I drive through Breezewood sometimes, but I never, ever stop to patronize anything.  Instead, I stop in Hancock, Maryland or at one of the Pennsylvania Turnpike service plazas west of Breezewood.
My family usually stop at Breezewood because those are the first couple services since Chambersburg, 40 miles away. There's also less lines at Breezewood than the service plazas further west of Breezewood, so if we're in a rush, we can zip in and out for food/snacks/gas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2015, 02:55:32 PM

For all the times I have driven I-70 thru Breezewood, that particular exit on the Pike vs some of the neighboring exits has the best selection of services in quite a distance either way.  Even if they did convert Breezewood to a full interstate-interstate interchange with a secondary exit to/from US-30, I still think a lot of the businesses will continue to thrive as it will still be a "pit stop" for a lot of travelers.  It's not like there are a deluge of exits with boku services within 15 miles of Breezewood on either section of I-70 or I-76 East for that matter.

I'd be also willing to bet that many of the businesses will gain nearly as many customers as they would stand to lose -- they may lose some of the I-70 thru traffic, but they may gain people who would not/did not stop because they were afraid to stop with all of the current traffic flow & congestion during peak times.

Just my $.02 observation.


I think this is where we start grasping for straws.  By this logic, everywhere where two interstates meet, there would be a huge metropolis of hotels, fast food restaurants, and other services.  Clearly this isn't the case.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ned Weasel on June 15, 2015, 03:51:43 PM
I think this is where we start grasping for straws.  By this logic, everywhere where two interstates meet, there would be a huge metropolis of hotels, fast food restaurants, and other services.  Clearly this isn't the case.

Have there been any objective studies on how a freeway-to-freeway connection between I-70 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike at Breezewood would affect local businesses?  Also, have there ever been any design proposals for a better Pennsylvania Turnpike/I-70 connection that would mitigate potential losses to Breezewood businesses?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: lepidopteran on June 15, 2015, 09:42:08 PM
I've long held that there should be two high-speed, EZ-Pass-only, slip ramps from the EB Turnpike to I-70 EB, and from WB I-70 to the WB Turnpike.  Both would be from the mainline, not the "old" turnpike.  The EB ramp would be a straightforward curve, while the WB ramp would have to fly over or under the mainline, since a cloverleaf loop ramp is not exactly "high speed".  EB to WB traffic (and vice-versa) would still have to run through Breezewood.

As for hurting business, remember that I-70's other connection to the pike, at New Stanton, also has a lot of businesses that seem to do just fine, despite not forcing the traffic through surface streets.  Granted, the businesses and their signs practically literally abut the highway there, whereas in Breezewood there's at least a half-mile of trees separating the highway from the commercial strip.  Also, in New Stanton, the exit is like "right there", though a construction project (http://"http://www.i-70projects.com/I-70NewStanton.html") is about to move the ramps at least a quarter-mile to the west.  (P.S.:  A high-speed EB to EB slip ramp at New Stanton wouldn't hurt either, IMHO)

Another solution for Breezewood that I read about on the web in the MTR era:  Connect the two stub ends of I-70 and the old pike with a wide arc behind the business strip.  That way everyone would see the businesses there.  Each side would be a half-diamond ramps.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mrsman on June 16, 2015, 10:25:55 PM


Another solution for Breezewood that I read about on the web in the MTR era:  Connect the two stub ends of I-70 and the old pike with a wide arc behind the business strip.  That way everyone would see the businesses there.  Each side would be a half-diamond ramps.

That's right.  When you look at a map of Breezewood, you can see that the terminus of I-70 at US 30 is nearly a mile north of the point where the turnpike goes over I-70.  If you put in direct ramps at the point where the turnpike goes over I-70, very few people would go 2 miles out of their way for gasoline and food. 

There is at least some hope for a compromise if the only way to get from I-70 to the Turnpike is by going over the town of Breezewood with a diamond exit at US 30.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on June 17, 2015, 11:14:50 AM
Another solution for Breezewood that I read about on the web in the MTR era:  Connect the two stub ends of I-70 and the old pike with a wide arc behind the business strip.  That way everyone would see the businesses there.  Each side would be a half-diamond ramps.
That's right.  When you look at a map of Breezewood, you can see that the terminus of I-70 at US 30 is nearly a mile north of the point where the turnpike goes over I-70.  If you put in direct ramps at the point where the turnpike goes over I-70, very few people would go 2 miles out of their way for gasoline and food. 

There is at least some hope for a compromise if the only way to get from I-70 to the Turnpike is by going over the town of Breezewood with a diamond exit at US 30.

Mike Koerner used to have a page dedicated to this proposal on his Highway Snippets site, but the page is no longer up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 17, 2015, 01:50:45 PM
If you put in direct ramps at the point where the turnpike goes over I-70, very few people would go 2 miles out of their way for gasoline and food. 

I might agree somewhat about gasoline - But if I were hungry around that area, I would absolutely hit up Breezewood for the choice in food.  I'm on the side of thinking that says Breezewood would be just fine with a direct connection of some sort for I-70 & the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 17, 2015, 06:35:30 PM
If you put in direct ramps at the point where the turnpike goes over I-70, very few people would go 2 miles out of their way for gasoline and food. 

I might agree somewhat about gasoline - But if I were hungry around that area, I would absolutely hit up Breezewood for the choice in food.  I'm on the side of thinking that says Breezewood would be just fine with a direct connection of some sort for I-70 & the Turnpike.

I'd still hit up Breezewood if I timed it right, even if it was only for gas. The amount you'd save at the pump is worth it and the cheaper food options are certainly a plus. What will hurt are the places that want to price gouge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 17, 2015, 09:23:42 PM
The PA Turnpike announced more details on the all-electronic tolling coming to the Delaware River Bridge next year.

However, they also announced I-376 (Beaver Valley Expressway) will also go AET.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Electronic-Tolls-Delaware-River-Bridge-PA-Turnpike-Pennsylvania-308004461.html (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Electronic-Tolls-Delaware-River-Bridge-PA-Turnpike-Pennsylvania-308004461.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 17, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
If you put in direct ramps at the point where the turnpike goes over I-70, very few people would go 2 miles out of their way for gasoline and food. 

I might agree somewhat about gasoline - But if I were hungry around that area, I would absolutely hit up Breezewood for the choice in food.  I'm on the side of thinking that says Breezewood would be just fine with a direct connection of some sort for I-70 & the Turnpike.

I'd still hit up Breezewood if I timed it right, even if it was only for gas. The amount you'd save at the pump is worth it and the cheaper food options are certainly a plus. What will hurt are the places that want to price gouge.

If you're hitting up Breezewood for gas, then you are doing it wrong and planned poorly.  Breezewood has among the highest prices for gas in the state.  If you are using I-70, Maryland isn't too far away and gas is 20 cents cheaper, which you should've hit up before entering PA, or planning your gas usage properly so you have enough to make it down to Maryland.  Other states are cheaper than PA in general, and there are even other towns in PA at least a dime cheaper than Breezewood.

Hell, right now (6/17/15, 10:25pm per Gasbuddy), gas is about $2.95 in Breezewood.  Gas at the Sideling Hill Service Plaza is $2.92.

So, how does spending more in Breezewood save you money???
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on June 18, 2015, 12:49:43 AM
If you put in direct ramps at the point where the turnpike goes over I-70, very few people would go 2 miles out of their way for gasoline and food. 

I might agree somewhat about gasoline - But if I were hungry around that area, I would absolutely hit up Breezewood for the choice in food.  I'm on the side of thinking that says Breezewood would be just fine with a direct connection of some sort for I-70 & the Turnpike.

I'd still hit up Breezewood if I timed it right, even if it was only for gas. The amount you'd save at the pump is worth it and the cheaper food options are certainly a plus. What will hurt are the places that want to price gouge.

If you're hitting up Breezewood for gas, then you are doing it wrong and planned poorly.  Breezewood has among the highest prices for gas in the state.  If you are using I-70, Maryland isn't too far away and gas is 20 cents cheaper, which you should've hit up before entering PA, or planning your gas usage properly so you have enough to make it down to Maryland.  Other states are cheaper than PA in general, and there are even other towns in PA at least a dime cheaper than Breezewood.

Hell, right now (6/17/15, 10:25pm per Gasbuddy), gas is about $2.95 in Breezewood.  Gas at the Sideling Hill Service Plaza is $2.92.

So, how does spending more in Breezewood save you money???

Maybe he has a Sheetz card which saves him $0.03 per gallon. lol.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on June 18, 2015, 07:41:30 AM
If you put in direct ramps at the point where the turnpike goes over I-70, very few people would go 2 miles out of their way for gasoline and food. 

I might agree somewhat about gasoline - But if I were hungry around that area, I would absolutely hit up Breezewood for the choice in food.  I'm on the side of thinking that says Breezewood would be just fine with a direct connection of some sort for I-70 & the Turnpike.

I'd still hit up Breezewood if I timed it right, even if it was only for gas. The amount you'd save at the pump is worth it and the cheaper food options are certainly a plus. What will hurt are the places that want to price gouge.

If you're hitting up Breezewood for gas, then you are doing it wrong and planned poorly.  Breezewood has among the highest prices for gas in the state.  If you are using I-70, Maryland isn't too far away and gas is 20 cents cheaper, which you should've hit up before entering PA, or planning your gas usage properly so you have enough to make it down to Maryland.  Other states are cheaper than PA in general, and there are even other towns in PA at least a dime cheaper than Breezewood.

Hell, right now (6/17/15, 10:25pm per Gasbuddy), gas is about $2.95 in Breezewood.  Gas at the Sideling Hill Service Plaza is $2.92.

So, how does spending more in Breezewood save you money???


I drive a truck, and i would hate to have to pay for PA price of diesel at ANY station. it is at least 50 cents higher than the neighboring states. Thankfully my company just cares that we put fuel in the rigs, and not what state it came from.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 18, 2015, 02:36:54 PM
The PA Turnpike announced more details on the all-electronic tolling coming to the Delaware River Bridge next year.

However, they also announced I-376 (Beaver Valley Expressway) will also go AET.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Electronic-Tolls-Delaware-River-Bridge-PA-Turnpike-Pennsylvania-308004461.html (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Electronic-Tolls-Delaware-River-Bridge-PA-Turnpike-Pennsylvania-308004461.html)

Not sure if this video has been posted on AAROADS before: Bucks County Courier-Times:  "Drive" the Pennsylvania Turnpike's new I-95 connection (http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/drive-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-s-new-i--connection/html_44ba77d7-0b7f-5aa2-bdba-9ff200d1a18b.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 18, 2015, 04:48:41 PM
Not sure if this video has been posted on AAROADS before: Bucks County Courier-Times:  "Drive" the Pennsylvania Turnpike's new I-95 connection (http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/drive-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-s-new-i--connection/html_44ba77d7-0b7f-5aa2-bdba-9ff200d1a18b.html)
It was and it's about a year or two old (Note the I-195 signing (now Future I-295)).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on June 18, 2015, 08:32:41 PM
Split the Mon-Fayette Expressway talk into the Mon-Fayette thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1409.msg2072401#msg2072401) over in the 'Ohio Valley' section.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 24, 2015, 06:09:36 PM
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: Pa. Turnpike commission considers getting rid of callboxes (http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/8613440-74/turnpike-call-boxes)

Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike drivers used the bright yellow roadside emergency call boxes more than 18,000 times a year 15 years ago. Now, it's about 1,200 times a year.

Quote
About half of Americans owned a cellphone 15 years ago. Now, ownership hovers at about 90 percent, so the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is considering whether it's time to scale back one of the nation's last and largest emergency call box systems.

Quote
“With the continued drop in the call box deployments and the new ways that we have to tell us about accidents, I think that's made the timing right to reconsider this,”  turnpike spokesman Carl DeFebo said.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 25, 2015, 08:40:21 AM
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: Pa. Turnpike commission considers getting rid of callboxes (http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/8613440-74/turnpike-call-boxes)

Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike drivers used the bright yellow roadside emergency call boxes more than 18,000 times a year 15 years ago. Now, it's about 1,200 times a year.

Quote
About half of Americans owned a cellphone 15 years ago. Now, ownership hovers at about 90 percent, so the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is considering whether it's time to scale back one of the nation's last and largest emergency call box systems.
As I mentioned either further back on this thread or in another thread; I would support reducing but not flat-out eliminating all the call boxes for the following reasons:

1.  The more remote and rural stretches of the Turnpike may still not have decent cell phone reception (aka Dead Zones).

2.  If one's cell phone is out of commission or has a dead battery (such does happen) and that person is driving alone; they might as well be viewed as someone without a cell phone.

Quote from: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
“With the continued drop in the call box deployments and the new ways that we have to tell us about accidents, I think that's made the timing right to reconsider this,”  turnpike spokesman Carl DeFebo said.
One needs to remember that call boxes aren't just for reporting accidents; but for reporting breakdowns as well.

IMHO, a more logical approach would be to reduce the number of call boxes along stretches that go through more populated regions (example: I-276 in the Greater Philadelphia area).  Instead of currently having one at every mile; reduce the number to one every 2 or 3 miles. in those areas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on June 25, 2015, 08:54:04 AM
IMHO, a more logical approach would be to reduce the number of call boxes along stretches that go through more populated regions (example: I-276 in the Greater Philadelphia area).  Instead of currently having one at every mile; reduce the number to one every 2 or 3 miles. in those areas.
depending on how the call boxes are connected, this might not actually provide a significant cost savings - e.g. if the removal of some but not all boxes requires the installation and subsequent maintenance of repeaters or other hardware. disclaimer - i do not know how the call boxes are wired, this is purely conjecture.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 25, 2015, 09:17:52 AM
IMHO, a more logical approach would be to reduce the number of call boxes along stretches that go through more populated regions (example: I-276 in the Greater Philadelphia area).  Instead of currently having one at every mile; reduce the number to one every 2 or 3 miles. in those areas.
depending on how the call boxes are connected, this might not actually provide a significant cost savings - e.g. if the removal of some but not all boxes requires the installation and subsequent maintenance of repeaters or other hardware. disclaimer - i do not know how the call boxes are wired, this is purely conjecture.
One would hope that those strings of call-boxes were installed in parallel circuits as opposed to in series.  That way if one is taken out of service (or knocked out in an accident); the remaining boxes before and after would still be functional.

The bottom line is if there's less call boxes to maintain/repair; the overall maintenance costs should be lower.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on June 25, 2015, 09:10:58 PM
I believe those are all radio call-boxes. Unless I'm mistaken there is no wiring involved. I think you could remove say every other one, and the remaining ones would stay operational. They should keep them in the rural areas where cell-phone service may be weak and sporadic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 25, 2015, 11:28:01 PM
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: Pa. Turnpike commission considers getting rid of callboxes (http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/8613440-74/turnpike-call-boxes)

Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike drivers used the bright yellow roadside emergency call boxes more than 18,000 times a year 15 years ago. Now, it's about 1,200 times a year.

Quote
About half of Americans owned a cellphone 15 years ago. Now, ownership hovers at about 90 percent, so the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is considering whether it's time to scale back one of the nation's last and largest emergency call box systems.
As I mentioned either further back on this thread or in another thread; I would support reducing but not flat-out eliminating all the call boxes for the following reasons:

1.  The more remote and rural stretches of the Turnpike may still not have decent cell phone reception (aka Dead Zones).

2.  If one's cell phone is out of commission or has a dead battery (such does happen) and that person is driving alone; they might as well be viewed as someone without a cell phone.

Quote from: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
“With the continued drop in the call box deployments and the new ways that we have to tell us about accidents, I think that's made the timing right to reconsider this,”  turnpike spokesman Carl DeFebo said.
One needs to remember that call boxes aren't just for reporting accidents; but for reporting breakdowns as well.

IMHO, a more logical approach would be to reduce the number of call boxes along stretches that go through more populated regions (example: I-276 in the Greater Philadelphia area).  Instead of currently having one at every mile; reduce the number to one every 2 or 3 miles. in those areas.

If they're going to keep them, they have to remain every mile. If you have a breakdown, you're not going to want to walk upwards of 3 miles to get to a box. Let's say someone breaks down: they're probably not aware of where the closest box is. They walk the right way, and it's no further than a half mile away. Walk the wrong way, and that's a long 2.5 mile walk with traffic flying by.  Oh, they have to return to their car.  That could be over a 5 mile round trip walk. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on June 26, 2015, 09:38:58 AM
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: Pa. Turnpike commission considers getting rid of callboxes (http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/8613440-74/turnpike-call-boxes)

Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike drivers used the bright yellow roadside emergency call boxes more than 18,000 times a year 15 years ago. Now, it's about 1,200 times a year.

Quote
About half of Americans owned a cellphone 15 years ago. Now, ownership hovers at about 90 percent, so the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is considering whether it's time to scale back one of the nation's last and largest emergency call box systems.
As I mentioned either further back on this thread or in another thread; I would support reducing but not flat-out eliminating all the call boxes for the following reasons:

1.  The more remote and rural stretches of the Turnpike may still not have decent cell phone reception (aka Dead Zones).

2.  If one's cell phone is out of commission or has a dead battery (such does happen) and that person is driving alone; they might as well be viewed as someone without a cell phone.

Quote from: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
“With the continued drop in the call box deployments and the new ways that we have to tell us about accidents, I think that's made the timing right to reconsider this,”  turnpike spokesman Carl DeFebo said.
One needs to remember that call boxes aren't just for reporting accidents; but for reporting breakdowns as well.

IMHO, a more logical approach would be to reduce the number of call boxes along stretches that go through more populated regions (example: I-276 in the Greater Philadelphia area).  Instead of currently having one at every mile; reduce the number to one every 2 or 3 miles. in those areas.

If they're going to keep them, they have to remain every mile. If you have a breakdown, you're not going to want to walk upwards of 3 miles to get to a box. Let's say someone breaks down: they're probably not aware of where the closest box is. They walk the right way, and it's no further than a half mile away. Walk the wrong way, and that's a long 2.5 mile walk with traffic flying by.  Oh, they have to return to their car.  That could be over a 5 mile round trip walk.

A subtle way of solving obesity?  :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on June 28, 2015, 11:16:48 AM
New NE Extension All Electronic (but E-Z Pass Only) Exit 87 is scheduled to (finally) open June 30. https://www.patpconstruction.com/Rt903AEI/

The release notes that mis-use of the interchange (without E-ZPass) results in a $25 administrative charge, and the toll will be equal to the furthest entry point -- Ohio Line. That's some charge...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on June 28, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
New NE Extension All Electronic (but E-Z Pass Only) Exit 87 is scheduled to (finally) open June 30. https://www.patpconstruction.com/Rt903AEI/

The release notes that mis-use of the interchange (without E-ZPass) results in a $25 administrative charge, and the toll will be equal to the furthest entry point -- Ohio Line. That's some charge...

That's messed up about it being the 'Ohio Line'.  Especially since the ticket system ends well before that @ Warrendale.  Maybe they really mean that, but who knows.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: machias on June 28, 2015, 07:37:23 PM
I noticed today that a VMS announced the opening of the "Route 903" E-ZPass only interchange on the NE Extension on 6/30.  From what I could tell from the covered up signs, control cities are Lake Harmony and Jim Thorpe.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on June 28, 2015, 07:41:41 PM
I noticed today that a VMS announced the opening of the "Route 903" E-ZPass only interchange on the NE Extension on 6/30.  From what I could tell from the covered up signs, control cities are Lake Harmony and Jim Thorpe.

I don’t know how I completely missed any news of this project even being underway, but just now looking at the project map for the first time...it looks like the new diamond interchange will cause some weaving conflicts with the Hickory Run Service Plaza which is immediately adjacent.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: machias on June 28, 2015, 07:46:33 PM
I noticed today that a VMS announced the opening of the "Route 903" E-ZPass only interchange on the NE Extension on 6/30.  From what I could tell from the covered up signs, control cities are Lake Harmony and Jim Thorpe.

I don’t know how I completely missed any news of this project even being underway, but just now looking at the project map for the first time...it looks like the new diamond interchange will cause some weaving conflicts with the Hickory Run Service Plaza which is immediately adjacent.

Headed NB on the Turnpike there's a WEAVE sign at the merge of the Hickory Run Service Area on ramp.

(https://www.edgarsnyder.com/images/large-550/signs/weave-area.png)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on June 28, 2015, 11:13:38 PM
I noticed today that a VMS announced the opening of the "Route 903" E-ZPass only interchange on the NE Extension on 6/30.  From what I could tell from the covered up signs, control cities are Lake Harmony and Jim Thorpe.

I don’t know how I completely missed any news of this project even being underway, but just now looking at the project map for the first time...it looks like the new diamond interchange will cause some weaving conflicts with the Hickory Run Service Plaza which is immediately adjacent.

Headed NB on the Turnpike there's a WEAVE sign at the merge of the Hickory Run Service Area on ramp.

(https://www.edgarsnyder.com/images/large-550/signs/weave-area.png)
I must be missing something. Unless exit 87 and the Hickory Run Service Plaza are both right exits, and exit 87 is an exit only lane, there should be no weaving between the deceleration lane and the slip ramp.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on June 29, 2015, 12:01:14 AM
The service plaza and the exit are both right-exit.

The re-entry from the service plaza appears to turn into an exit only lane for new exit 87.

The link above has an image of the control cities.


This project has been a weird one, and the current web-site does not give the full story. I think as far back as 2010, phase I was a "design-build" project, where they built half a new bridge... and that was it. The rest picked up over the last several years, with an ever-increasing bleed into late 2014/early 2015... Spring 2015... Summer 2015...

The exit ramp, at least northbound has been painted to include "E-Z Pass Only"
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 29, 2015, 06:50:08 AM
I noticed today that a VMS announced the opening of the "Route 903" E-ZPass only interchange on the NE Extension on 6/30.  From what I could tell from the covered up signs, control cities are Lake Harmony and Jim Thorpe.

I don’t know how I completely missed any news of this project even being underway, but just now looking at the project map for the first time...it looks like the new diamond interchange will cause some weaving conflicts with the Hickory Run Service Plaza which is immediately adjacent.

Headed NB on the Turnpike there's a WEAVE sign at the merge of the Hickory Run Service Area on ramp.

(https://www.edgarsnyder.com/images/large-550/signs/weave-area.png)

These signs are found elsewhere in PA, which in my opinion make no sense as to what the actual advisory is supposed to be.  The main road almost always goes straight, not curved as pictured, and there's more than 1 lane from and to the main road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Stephane Dumas on July 01, 2015, 08:12:28 PM
The new interchange who only allow EZ-pass users with PA-903 on the NE Extension (I-476) is open just in time for July 4.
http://www.wfmz.com/news/Regional-Poconos-Coal/new-rt-903-turnpike-interchange-opens-in-poconos/33865186
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: machias on July 02, 2015, 05:14:57 PM
The new interchange who only allow EZ-pass users with PA-903 on the NE Extension (I-476) is open just in time for July 4.
http://www.wfmz.com/news/Regional-Poconos-Coal/new-rt-903-turnpike-interchange-opens-in-poconos/33865186

Great to see it open and E-Z Pass technology being used to its fullest potential. But I'm curious, why don't they install ticket dispensers for the onramps to the Turnpike? It would still be a human free interchange and more motorists could use the access to the roadway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 02, 2015, 05:24:20 PM
The new interchange who only allow EZ-pass users with PA-903 on the NE Extension (I-476) is open just in time for July 4.
http://www.wfmz.com/news/Regional-Poconos-Coal/new-rt-903-turnpike-interchange-opens-in-poconos/33865186

Great to see it open and E-Z Pass technology being used to its fullest potential. But I'm curious, why don't they install ticket dispensers for the onramps to the Turnpike? It would still be a human free interchange and more motorists could use the access to the roadway.

My guess is they really want to send you a $60 bill
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 02, 2015, 05:40:29 PM
The new interchange who only allow EZ-pass users with PA-903 on the NE Extension (I-476) is open just in time for July 4.
http://www.wfmz.com/news/Regional-Poconos-Coal/new-rt-903-turnpike-interchange-opens-in-poconos/33865186

Great to see it open and E-Z Pass technology being used to its fullest potential. But I'm curious, why don't they install ticket dispensers for the onramps to the Turnpike? It would still be a human free interchange and more motorists could use the access to the roadway.

Having an asymmetrical exit like that is just asking for trouble - people will expect to be able to get on there if they can get off, and people who couldn't get off there would never expect that they can get on.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 02, 2015, 06:19:36 PM
Great to see it open and E-Z Pass technology being used to its fullest potential. But I'm curious, why don't they install ticket dispensers for the onramps to the Turnpike? It would still be a human free interchange and more motorists could use the access to the roadway.
If one installs ticket dispensers on the on-ramps; one would need to install tollbooths for the corresponding the off-ramps; so it would not be human-free.  Remember, this is a full-movement interchange; not an entrance-ramps only one.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ned Weasel on July 02, 2015, 08:41:19 PM
Great to see it open and E-Z Pass technology being used to its fullest potential. But I'm curious, why don't they install ticket dispensers for the onramps to the Turnpike? It would still be a human free interchange and more motorists could use the access to the roadway.
If one installs ticket dispensers on the on-ramps; one would need to install tollbooths for the corresponding the off-ramps; so it would not be human-free.  Remember, this is a full-movement interchange; not an entrance-ramps only one.

It could be "human-free" if they installed automated cash payment toll booths such as the kind the Kansas Turnpike uses, but it's still a greater expense--in terms of equipment, structure, and land area required--than simple gantries with transponder readers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2015, 10:38:48 PM
They're supposed to be free-flowing interchanges.  Tickets require vehicles to stop.  And tickets need to be reloaded.  And ticket machines jam. 

Besides, much of the purpose is to encourage EZ Pass usage. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: machias on July 03, 2015, 12:05:03 AM
They're supposed to be free-flowing interchanges.  Tickets require vehicles to stop.  And tickets need to be reloaded.  And ticket machines jam. 

Besides, much of the purpose is to encourage EZ Pass usage. 

That's a very good point. I was thinking that motorists could grab a ticket and then not be able to use E-ZPass only exits, but you're right, installing a ticket dispenser would require more frequent maintenance.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 03, 2015, 01:48:26 PM
But I'm curious, why don't they install ticket dispensers for the onramps to the Turnpike? It would still be a human free interchange and more motorists could use the access to the roadway.

Because in a few years the Turnpike will be All Electronic Tolling (AET) on the entire system, so they would be purchasing and installing new equipment just to rip it out after not too long.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 03, 2015, 03:29:18 PM
But I'm curious, why don't they install ticket dispensers for the onramps to the Turnpike? It would still be a human free interchange and more motorists could use the access to the roadway.

Because in a few years the Turnpike will be All Electronic Tolling (AET) on the entire system, so they would be purchasing and installing new equipment just to rip it out after not too long.
That's what they're doing with the new toll barrier for the I-95 interchange.  I'd rather they stick to their original schedule to do a total conversion in 2016, ditch the barrier, and put the money to finishing the rest of the project sooner.  But that's not how the PTC works...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 07, 2015, 07:18:05 PM
Another year, another toll increase.  This one, however, is much larger than usual (at least for E-ZPass customers)

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/07/07/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-tolls-go-up-for-eighth-in-a-row/stories/201507070174
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 08, 2015, 12:34:48 AM
Another year, another toll increase.  This one, however, is much larger than usual (at least for E-ZPass customers)

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/07/07/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-tolls-go-up-for-eighth-in-a-row/stories/201507070174
I think everyone in PA might be missing something here....can't you use US 30 as a shunpike to it? Why don't more people use US 30 as a shunpike (If you want to go to Harrisburg, take US 30 to I-83)?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 08, 2015, 09:01:44 AM
This one, however, is much larger than usual (at least for E-ZPass customers)
the increases are the same for cash and EZpass - was that not the case previously?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 08, 2015, 09:12:38 AM
Another year, another toll increase.  This one, however, is much larger than usual (at least for E-ZPass customers)

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/07/07/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-tolls-go-up-for-eighth-in-a-row/stories/201507070174
Act 44 strikes again.

Here's a similar article from today's (7/8) Philadelphia Inquirer (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20150708_Pa__Turnpike_tolls_to_rise_by_6_percent.html) with some additional toll information regarding the new westbound toll gantry for the Future I-95 Southbound section in Bucks County.  Interestingly, the PA Turnpike's website mentions the upcoming toll increase for next year but not the toll rate for the new westbound AET gantry.  (Bold emphasis added for below-quote)

Quote from: Inquirer Article
Also, an additional toll will be collected from westbound vehicles at a new all-electronic toll plaza in Bucks County, at the eastern end of the turnpike.

That toll will be $5 for passenger vehicles using E-ZPass and $6.75 for vehicles without E-ZPass. A bill will be mailed to the owner of a non-E-ZPass vehicle, based on its license plate.
One word (worth repeating) comment for such: Extortion, Extortion, Extortion!

While I understand the alleged need to place a toll gantry (even an AET type) at the PA side of the Delaware River crossing (yes, I'm aware that a new parallel span will be built); but charging the same if not more than what the DRPA toll facilities (side bar, the just introduced a reduced $4 toll rate for those E-ZPass users taking more than 18 westbound trips/month) further south is clearly over the top... especially if annual Act 44-related toll increases continue.

Hardest hit, money-wise, will be those coming from US 130 on Jersey side (NJTP Exit 6A).  They already pay up to $3 ($2.20 E-ZPass Off-Peak rate for NJ accounts only) just to get on the westbound Turnpike bridge to head into the Keystone State.  Assuming that this new AET gantry will be placed where the current East Gate/Delaware River Bridge toll plaza is (thereby giving nobody coming from NJ a chance to bypass the new AET); motorists from US 130 will be paying between $7.50 to $9.75 total in westbound tolls.  While such rates may be a comparative bargain in the metropolitan NYC area; such is flat-out scandalous for the Delaware Valley.  Especially when such is located between a bridge that charges a $2 westbound toll (the 2-lane Burlington-Bristol/PA 413/CR 541) and the US 1/Trenton/Morrisville bridge charges a $1 (with a 16-trip/month E-ZPass discount toll of $0.60). 

While I am hoping that the Philadelphia Inquirer got their toll information wrong (since the PA Turnpike's website does not yet mention the new AET toll rate for that proposed ganrtry); I'm not too optimistic.  If true, then people on both sides of the river need to write a letter of protest to the PTC and (for those on the PA side) to their State Representative and Senator.

If a toll has to be implemented for westbounders; it should be competitively priced (IMHO, no more than $3 E-ZPass/$3.50 by mail) and exempt from any/all future Act 44 increases.

Rant over.

I think everyone in PA might be missing something here....can't you use US 30 as a shunpike to it? Why don't more people use US 30 as a shunpike (If you want to go to Harrisburg, take US 30 to I-83)?
US 30 is not a continuous highway in the Keystone State whereas the Turnpike is.  So using it as a shunpike route can add more travel time depending on where one's origin & destination are.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on July 08, 2015, 09:32:15 AM
If the PANYNJ can charge what they do between NJ and NY, and NYC's Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority can charge what they have been on their crossings, I guess PTC can overcharge as well.

Then we cannot forget Delaware either, who had as of last year the most expensive toll rate per mile on I-95.

Monkey see, monkey does.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 08, 2015, 09:44:43 AM
If the PANYNJ can charge what they do between NJ and NY, and NYC's Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority can charge what they have been on their crossings, I guess PTC can overcharge as well.
Again, and I stated such earlier, this is not metropolitan NYC/Hudson River Crossings we're talking about here where there's (near-)monopoly-agency control here.  This is an area that's just north of DRPA territory (although they tried & failed to get control over the Tacony-Palmyra and Burlington-Bristol Bridges during the mid-90s, thank goodness) and is just south of DRJTBC (Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission) territory.  I can easily see added traffic along the Burlington-Bristol, Trenton-Morrisville and even the Scudder Falls Bridges as a result of this proposed extortion toll.

Then we cannot forget Delaware either, who had as of last year the most expensive toll rate per mile on I-95.
Apples & oranges comparsion; that toll (also an extortion rate IMHO) doesn't involve a river crossing and can be easily bypassed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 08, 2015, 09:46:40 AM
Act 44 is the next Cherynobyl disaster...sooner or later people will find the turnpike too expensive, even for EZPass, and then byebye PTC.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2015, 09:51:42 AM
Act 44 is the next Cherynobyl disaster...sooner or later people will find the turnpike too expensive, even for EZPass, and then byebye PTC.

Pfft.  Demand's too inelastic to ever see that happen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 08, 2015, 09:54:00 AM
Act 44 is the next Cherynobyl disaster...sooner or later people will find the turnpike too expensive, even for EZPass, and then byebye PTC.

Pfft.  Demand's too inelastic to ever see that happen.
I don't know...look at Harrisburg's roads. They are a disgrace to this country.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2015, 09:57:27 AM
Act 44 is the next Cherynobyl disaster...sooner or later people will find the turnpike too expensive, even for EZPass, and then byebye PTC.

Pfft.  Demand's too inelastic to ever see that happen.
I don't know...look at Harrisburg's roads. They are a disgrace to this country.

Huh?  :hmm:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on July 08, 2015, 09:57:31 AM
$5 to cross the Delaware River (not counting the New Jersey Turnpike toll)? Fucking ridiculous. It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled. I'd rather go through Trenton, take one of the free bridges into Pennsylvania, hop on US 1, take that to I-95, and continue from there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on July 08, 2015, 10:00:18 AM
If the PANYNJ can charge what they do between NJ and NY, and NYC's Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority can charge what they have been on their crossings, I guess PTC can overcharge as well.
Again, and I stated such earlier, this is not metropolitan NYC/Hudson River Crossings we're talking about here where there's (near-)monopoly-agency control here.  This is an area that's just north of DRPA territory (although they tried & failed to get control over the Tacony-Palmyra and Burlington-Bristol Bridges during the mid-90s, thank goodness) and is just south of DRJTBC (Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission) territory.  I can easily see added traffic along the Burlington-Bristol, Trenton-Morrisville and even the Scudder Falls Bridges as a result of this proposed extortion toll.

Then we cannot forget Delaware either, who had as of last year the most expensive toll rate per mile on I-95.
Apples & oranges comparsion; that toll (also an extortion rate IMHO) doesn't involve a river crossing and can be easily bypassed.
But if the PANYNJ can charge outrageous tolls, why can't the PTC?  Just like when Disney World charges over 100 bucks a pop, the other theme parks follow suit.

Bottom line is if one person charges ridiculous prices and gets away with it, others will soon follow.  My point was not about the different politics between NYC and SE PA, just to point out its old news to jack up the prices anyplace now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 08, 2015, 10:04:28 AM
Act 44 is the next Cherynobyl disaster...sooner or later people will find the turnpike too expensive, even for EZPass, and then byebye PTC.

Pfft.  Demand's too inelastic to ever see that happen.
I don't know...look at Harrisburg's roads. They are a disgrace to this country.

Huh?  :hmm:
Harrisburg's freeways and freeway bridges are pretty substandard, and are only four-six lanes wide. Therei s also tight weaving because of how many exits there are tightly packed together (this is true for I-83 SB from US 322 WB from the Eisenhower Interchange - if you want to get on Paxton Street from US 322, you have to make a hard weave in 3/8 of a mile to exit). They are also pretty bumpy too, that they're gonna become Hersheypark.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 08, 2015, 10:30:24 AM
It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled.
What agency will be tolling that upgraded crossing?  I'm assuming that it will be the DRJTBC (which tolls the US 1 crossing).  Hopefully, they'll have the decency to show some restraint with the future toll rate.  IMHO, that new crossing (Scudder Falls) should not have a PA-bound toll higher than $3 (for passenger vehicles).  All other DRJTBC tolled crossings are currently only $1.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 08, 2015, 10:36:53 AM
It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled.
What agency will be tolling that upgraded crossing?  I'm assuming that it will be the DRJTBC (which tolls the US 1 crossing).  Hopefully, they'll have the decency to show some restraint with the future toll rate.  IMHO, that new crossing (Scudder Falls) should not have a PA-bound toll higher than $3 (for passenger vehicles).  All other DRJTBC tolled crossings are currently only $1.

DRJTBC owns the Scudder Falls Bridge. Also I believe the tolls are going up to fund the bridge widening (or are they flat out replacing it?) project so hopefully they go away after its paid for. *snickers*
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 08, 2015, 10:37:57 AM
But if the PANYNJ can charge outrageous tolls, why can't the PTC?  Just like when Disney World charges over 100 bucks a pop, the other theme parks follow suit.

Bottom line is if one person charges ridiculous prices and gets away with it, others will soon follow.  My point was not about the different politics between NYC and SE PA, just to point out its old news to jack up the prices anyplace now.

Where are the dollars raised by these outrageous toll rates going?  In the case of NY MTA and the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, most of it is not going to benefit the roads, bridges and tunnels for which the tolls are charged.  Instead, the dollars are being diverted to transit subsidies (some goes to capital projects, but I suspect most of it ends up in the compensation packages (wages, health care and pensions) of unionized transit workers).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 08, 2015, 10:45:17 AM
Act 44 is the next Cherynobyl disaster...sooner or later people will find the turnpike too expensive, even for EZPass, and then byebye PTC.

Act 44 was superseded by Act 89, but the tolls will keep going up to fund projects that have nothing to do with the Pennsylvania Turnpike.  You can read a summary here (https://www.paturnpike.com/business/act44_plan.aspx).

Relevant part (from the page above), with emphasis added:

Quote
Act 89 substantially altered the Commission’s funding obligations to PennDOT. While the Commission’s payment obligation remains at $450 million annually through Fiscal Year 2022, none of the payments are dedicated to highways and bridges. Instead, all $450 million is allocated to support transit capital, operating, multi-modal and other non-highway programs. Beginning in Fiscal Year 2023, the annual payment obligations decreases to $50 million until the payment obligations ends in 2057.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2015, 11:16:28 AM
Act 44 is the next Cherynobyl disaster...sooner or later people will find the turnpike too expensive, even for EZPass, and then byebye PTC.

Pfft.  Demand's too inelastic to ever see that happen.
I don't know...look at Harrisburg's roads. They are a disgrace to this country.

Huh?  :hmm:
Harrisburg's freeways and freeway bridges are pretty substandard, and are only four-six lanes wide. Therei s also tight weaving because of how many exits there are tightly packed together (this is true for I-83 SB from US 322 WB from the Eisenhower Interchange - if you want to get on Paxton Street from US 322, you have to make a hard weave in 3/8 of a mile to exit). They are also pretty bumpy too, that they're gonna become Hersheypark.

Okay, but I'm not sure what that has to do with traffic demand on the PA Turnpike and your assertion that increased tolls could lead to PTC going the way of the dodo.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 08, 2015, 11:32:20 AM
Act 44 was superseded by Act 89, but the tolls will keep going up to fund projects that have nothing to do with the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Slight correction, Act 89 amended (not superseded) Act 44 per the opening paragraph of your posted-link (bold emphasis added).

Quote from: PTC Act 44 Plan
The General Assembly of Pennsylvania approved Act 44 in July 2007 that was subsequently amended by Act 89 in November 2013.

If the PANYNJ can charge what they do between NJ and NY, and NYC's Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority can charge what they have been on their crossings, I guess PTC can overcharge as well.
One difference between the PANYNJ and the PTC is that PANYNJ covers a much smaller (but lucrative) territory (mainly the Hudson River corridor) and whereas the PTC's highway network extends statewide.

Just like when Disney World charges over 100 bucks a pop, the other theme parks follow suit.
Disney World and other theme parks are a pleasure destinations; toll facilities, by and large, are not.

Bottom line is if one person charges ridiculous prices and gets away with it, others will soon follow.
Yes and no.  A year or two ago, RITBA tried to pull a fast one with implementing a toll (via AET gantries) for the replacement Sakonnet River Bridge (Route 24) and charged NYC-like rates for out-of-state drivers (including neighboring MA).  Thankfully, the state intervened and RITBA were beaten back and the temporary 10-cent tolls on the gantries were dropped (though the gantries themselves are still present IIRC).

That was one case where NYC/PANYNJ-style toll rate tactics were, thankfully, aborted.

Hopefully, similar can happen here; especially since the Future I-95 section of the PA Turnpike (between the I-95 interchange and the Delaware River Bridge) was originally planned not to have tolls placed anywhere.  While I don't expect the new westbound AET gantry will be dropped/withdrawn following a public outcry/protest over the pending toll rates; IMHO, the PTC could be forced/pressured (maybe it's time to involve the Feds since such is part of a quasi-Interstate completion project) to lower that AET toll rate enough to be reasonably competetive.  While one should not expect a $1-$2 toll; $5+* is outrageous.

*Assuming this AET gantry is subject to Act 44 toll increases.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 08, 2015, 01:05:27 PM
It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled.
What agency will be tolling that upgraded crossing?  I'm assuming that it will be the DRJTBC (which tolls the US 1 crossing).  Hopefully, they'll have the decency to show some restraint with the future toll rate.  IMHO, that new crossing (Scudder Falls) should not have a PA-bound toll higher than $3 (for passenger vehicles).  All other DRJTBC tolled crossings are currently only $1.

DRJTBC owns the Scudder Falls Bridge. Also I believe the tolls are going up to fund the bridge widening (or are they flat out replacing it?) project so hopefully they go away after its paid for. *snickers*
The bridge is being replaced, and DRJTBC already said the tolls won't be going away.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on July 08, 2015, 01:16:18 PM
Act 44 was superseded by Act 89, but the tolls will keep going up to fund projects that have nothing to do with the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Slight correction, Act 89 amended (not superseded) Act 44 per the opening paragraph of your posted-link (bold emphasis added).

Quote from: PTC Act 44 Plan
The General Assembly of Pennsylvania approved Act 44 in July 2007 that was subsequently amended by Act 89 in November 2013.

If the PANYNJ can charge what they do between NJ and NY, and NYC's Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority can charge what they have been on their crossings, I guess PTC can overcharge as well.
One difference between the PANYNJ and the PTC is that PANYNJ covers a much smaller (but lucrative) territory (mainly the Hudson River corridor) and whereas the PTC's highway network extends statewide.

Just like when Disney World charges over 100 bucks a pop, the other theme parks follow suit.
Disney World and other theme parks are a pleasure destinations; toll facilities, by and large, are not.

Bottom line is if one person charges ridiculous prices and gets away with it, others will soon follow.
Yes and no.  A year or two ago, RITBA tried to pull a fast one with implementing a toll (via AET gantries) for the replacement Sakonnet River Bridge (Route 24) and charged NYC-like rates for out-of-state drivers (including neighboring MA).  Thankfully, the state intervened and RITBA were beaten back and the temporary 10-cent tolls on the gantries were dropped (though the gantries themselves are still present IIRC).

That was one case where NYC/PANYNJ-style toll rate tactics were, thankfully, aborted.

Hopefully, similar can happen here; especially since the Future I-95 section of the PA Turnpike (between the I-95 interchange and the Delaware River Bridge) was originally planned not to have tolls placed anywhere.  While I don't expect the new westbound AET gantry will be dropped/withdrawn following a public outcry/protest over the pending toll rates; IMHO, the PTC could be forced/pressured (maybe it's time to involve the Feds since such is part of a quasi-Interstate completion project) to lower that AET toll rate enough to be reasonably competetive.  While one should not expect a $1-$2 toll; $5+* is outrageous.

*Assuming this AET gantry is subject to Act 44 toll increases.
Disney is just an example of what one agency does that another follows.  Whether its public or private, it seems that all people of today copy one another!  If one toll agency does it so will another large or small!

Now granted that may not be the reason here, but do not be surprised if it is as well.  Its human nature now to charge more especially if it puts a burden on the customers who have to pay.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 08, 2015, 01:18:06 PM
FWIW, the current 358-359 (Delaware Valley/Delaware River Bridge) toll is $2.15 cash/$1.46 E-ZPass.  While such will go away for eastbounders; westbounder will get hosed with the new toll rates (assuming that such info. (from the Philly Inquirer) is indeed correct).

Disney is just an example of what one agency does that another follows.  Whether its public or private, it seems that all people of today copy one another!  If one toll agency does it so will another large or small!
Agree on the principle/concept of such; disagree on the application.  Most people can easily avoid Disney if they don't want to pay those prices; such is not always true for the motoring public and trucking industry.

Now granted that may not be the reason here, but do not be surprised if it is as well.  Its human nature now to charge more especially if it puts a burden on the customers who have to pay.
Again.  We're not talking about something that most people can do without.  Additionally, we're not talking about a region that has an overall higher cost-of-living (NYC i.e. where everything "supposedly" costs more) and where one agency literally controls every river crossing.  We're talking about the modification of the toll structure/schedule for one particular existing crossing that is proposed to be overpriced.

And unlike past PA Turnpike toll increases (Act 44-related and otherwise); this new gantry directly targets those coming from the Garden State, especially locals from Florence with a significant percentage (at least 300%) toll increase.

Maybe, the best solution here would be to have either DRJTBC or even DRPA take over that particular proposed toll gantry (& bridge project) and eliminate the westbound toll from the NJTP/US 130 interchange.  That way the toll rates will, at least, remain constant every year and won't be subject to the whims of the PTC & Act 44.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 08, 2015, 01:20:14 PM
It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled.
What agency will be tolling that upgraded crossing?  I'm assuming that it will be the DRJTBC (which tolls the US 1 crossing).  Hopefully, they'll have the decency to show some restraint with the future toll rate.  IMHO, that new crossing (Scudder Falls) should not have a PA-bound toll higher than $3 (for passenger vehicles).  All other DRJTBC tolled crossings are currently only $1.

DRJTBC owns the Scudder Falls Bridge. Also I believe the tolls are going up to fund the bridge widening (or are they flat out replacing it?) project so hopefully they go away after its paid for. *snickers*
The bridge is being replaced, and DRJTBC already said the tolls won't be going away.

The bridge replacement project has grown quiet over the past few years, although on their website it states that they expect construction to start in 2017.  They will be doing some surface repair work on the existing bridge over the next few months due to continuing and problematic pothole and other pavement issues.  https://www.drjtbc.org/default.aspx?pageid=3595

Other than stating tolling will be all-electronic, they haven't stated what the toll will be.  The DRJTBC is probably one of the best in terms of keeping costs constrained, so hopefully they will toll this at a reasonable rate.  They did mess up a number of years ago when they hiked tolls on US 1 a bit too much, and caused some massive traffic jams of people exiting before the bridge to use one of the free bridges from Trenton to Morrisville. The US 1 toll eventually was slightly reduced. 

A detour around Scudder Falls will be quite a bit longer, and the best option - over the Calhoun Street Bridge - involves a narrower bridge and a longer drive thru Morrisville.  But considering these people currently have a free ride, they're not going to be happy no matter what the toll will be.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 08, 2015, 02:34:09 PM
FWIW, the current 358-359 (Delaware Valley/Delaware River Bridge) toll is $2.15 cash/$1.46 E-ZPass.  While such will go away for eastbounders; westbounder will get hosed with the new toll rates (assuming that such info. (from the Philly Inquirer) is indeed correct).

Disney is just an example of what one agency does that another follows.  Whether its public or private, it seems that all people of today copy one another!  If one toll agency does it so will another large or small!
Agree on the principle/concept of such; disagree on the application.  Most people can easily avoid Disney if they don't want to pay those prices; such is not always true for the motoring public and trucking industry.

Now granted that may not be the reason here, but do not be surprised if it is as well.  Its human nature now to charge more especially if it puts a burden on the customers who have to pay.
Again.  We're not talking about something that most people can do without.  Additionally, we're not talking about a region that has an overall higher cost-of-living (NYC i.e. where everything "supposedly" costs more) and where one agency literally controls every river crossing.  We're talking about the modification of the toll structure/schedule for one particular existing crossing that is proposed to be overpriced.

And unlike past PA Turnpike toll increases (Act 44-related and otherwise); this new gantry directly targets those coming from the Garden State, especially locals from Florence with a significant percentage (at least 300%) toll increase.

Maybe, the best solution here would be to have either DRJTBC or even DRPA take over that particular proposed toll gantry (& bridge project) and eliminate the westbound toll from the NJTP/US 130 interchange.  That way the toll rates will, at least, remain constant every year and won't be subject to the whims of the PTC & Act 44.

DRJTBC or Burlington Bridge Commission. DRPA can piss off. Last thing anyone needs is them getting another bridge to maintain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 08, 2015, 02:42:12 PM
DRJTBC or Burlington Bridge Commission. DRPA can piss off. Last thing anyone needs is them getting another bridge to maintain.
Fair enough, I only mentioned agencies that presently toll large bridges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 08, 2015, 02:51:33 PM
DRJTBC or Burlington Bridge Commission. DRPA can piss off. Last thing anyone needs is them getting another bridge to maintain.
Fair enough, I only mentioned agencies that presently toll large bridges.

True. I just don't want them taking over and making drop from cruising down either turnpike at 65-70 to crawling over the bridge at a miserable 45MPH cause their cops get bored.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 08, 2015, 03:39:08 PM
DRJTBC or Burlington Bridge Commission. DRPA can piss off. Last thing anyone needs is them getting another bridge to maintain.
Fair enough, I only mentioned agencies that presently toll large bridges.

True. I just don't want them taking over and making drop from cruising down either turnpike at 65-70 to crawling over the bridge at a miserable 45MPH cause their cops get bored.

While that PA/NJ Turnpike bridge is signed at 50 mph, I don't believe either state's cops are interested in ticketing anyone anywhere near that speed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 08, 2015, 04:51:51 PM
DRJTBC or Burlington Bridge Commission. DRPA can piss off. Last thing anyone needs is them getting another bridge to maintain.
Fair enough, I only mentioned agencies that presently toll large bridges.

True. I just don't want them taking over and making drop from cruising down either turnpike at 65-70 to crawling over the bridge at a miserable 45MPH cause their cops get bored.

While that PA/NJ Turnpike bridge is signed at 50 mph, I don't believe either state's cops are interested in ticketing anyone anywhere near that speed.

Yeah I don't think I've ever seen either jurisdiction patrolling the bridge. I may have seen someone pulled over on the Jersey side well before the bridge but that's it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 08, 2015, 06:13:31 PM
Most of this expensive toll rate thing is because PA is quite broke. Really, just find a toll rate that PennDOT and everyone else can be happy with.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 08, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
Most of this expensive toll rate thing is because PA is quite broke. Really, just find a toll rate that PennDOT PTC and everyone else can be happy with.
FTFY.

I mentioned earlier that a $3 E-ZPass/$3 cash-by-mail toll would be a reasonable amount (again, keep in mind that those coming from Florence have already paid an additional $2 to $3 (to the NJTPA) just to get on the Turnpike at the Jersey side of the bridge).  One wants a toll rate to be competitive enough to stimulate (read "encourage") more traffic to use it.  More traffic = more overall toll revenue collected.

If one makes the toll too steep; I guarantee you that the 2-lane Burlington-Bristol Bridge (the next closest bridge to the Turnpike bridge that charges a $2 PA-bound toll) will see a sizable surge in traffic possibly to the point where the PTC may now start getting complaints from outside of the Commonwealth regarding such.

IMHO, this could be another Sakonnet Bridge toll battle in the making.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 08, 2015, 06:36:43 PM

A detour around Scudder Falls will be quite a bit longer, and the best option - over the Calhoun Street Bridge - involves a narrower bridge and a longer drive thru Morrisville.  But considering these people currently have a free ride, they're not going to be happy no matter what the toll will be.


Getting OT, but 1 to the Trenton Makes bridge is even better than Calhoun.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 08, 2015, 08:46:37 PM
This one, however, is much larger than usual (at least for E-ZPass customers)
the increases are the same for cash and EZpass - was that not the case previously?

Yes, there were years increases were lower (or non-existent) for E-ZPass customers.

What concerns me is that one article mentions toll increases are likely for the next 30 years.  If you assume a median (4.5%) increase between the 3-6% they noted, tolls would more than triple in 30 years.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 08, 2015, 09:12:47 PM
It'll come to the point where 78, 80 and 30 will be reasonable shunpikes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on July 08, 2015, 09:38:42 PM
It'll come to the point where 78, 80 and 30 will be reasonable shunpikes.

Depends on the price of gas. If gas prices increase with inflation, assuming no alternative fuels come into widespread use, the Turnpike might still be cheaper.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 08, 2015, 11:33:13 PM
It'll come to the point where 78, 80 and 30 will be reasonable shunpikes.
I'd take 22 before 30.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on July 09, 2015, 01:53:36 AM
It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled.
What agency will be tolling that upgraded crossing?  I'm assuming that it will be the DRJTBC (which tolls the US 1 crossing).  Hopefully, they'll have the decency to show some restraint with the future toll rate.  IMHO, that new crossing (Scudder Falls) should not have a PA-bound toll higher than $3 (for passenger vehicles).  All other DRJTBC tolled crossings are currently only $1.

DRJTBC owns the Scudder Falls Bridge. Also I believe the tolls are going up to fund the bridge widening (or are they flat out replacing it?) project so hopefully they go away after its paid for. *snickers*
The bridge is being replaced, and DRJTBC already said the tolls won't be going away.





A detour around Scudder Falls will be quite a bit longer, and the best option - over the Calhoun Street Bridge - involves a narrower bridge and a longer drive thru Morrisville.  But considering these people currently have a free ride, they're not going to be happy no matter what the toll will be.



When I moved down to Florida back in 1990, almost eight years after the Airport Mainline Plaza on FL 528 was added, still people were complaining about that particular toll point.  As prior to 1982, FL 528 was a free road as the current Beachline Freeway was not yet built between present day exits 8 and 13.  A four lane arterial was in place of the freeway and charged nothing. 

When the road was upgraded to freeway to complete the missing link of FL 528's freeway (FL 528 was continuously numbered over the arterial which was McCoy Road) the toll went up and the free alternative became the service road, people complained about paying a toll as they never did before.  As the service road became the new McCoy Road, it got narrowed to two lanes and at its intersection with FL 436, it does a lot of weaving because of the current Exit 11 on FL 528, so the road veers northward and comes to meet with FL 436 at grade 2/10 mile north of the FL 528 and FL 436 interchange.  On the realigned McCoy Road near hear it is a longer distance than the 2/10 mile as it zigs very much and a reduced 35 mph speed limit makes the trip longer.

People will complain, no matter what. You charge for something that was not before and no one likes it.  Of course businesses and government agencies know that and if they have you over a barrel they will do it.  Look at gas prices as we need to use our cars, so naturally the price of oil is much higher than it was 15 years ago, as we have no choice to pay it or else we do not get to work or the market.  Demand, I believe is the word which is why the PTC will jack up prices just like every other commodity out there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 09, 2015, 08:53:50 AM
It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled.
What agency will be tolling that upgraded crossing?  I'm assuming that it will be the DRJTBC (which tolls the US 1 crossing).  Hopefully, they'll have the decency to show some restraint with the future toll rate.  IMHO, that new crossing (Scudder Falls) should not have a PA-bound toll higher than $3 (for passenger vehicles).  All other DRJTBC tolled crossings are currently only $1.

DRJTBC owns the Scudder Falls Bridge. Also I believe the tolls are going up to fund the bridge widening (or are they flat out replacing it?) project so hopefully they go away after its paid for. *snickers*
The bridge is being replaced, and DRJTBC already said the tolls won't be going away.





A detour around Scudder Falls will be quite a bit longer, and the best option - over the Calhoun Street Bridge - involves a narrower bridge and a longer drive thru Morrisville.  But considering these people currently have a free ride, they're not going to be happy no matter what the toll will be.



When I moved down to Florida back in 1990, almost eight years after the Airport Mainline Plaza on FL 528 was added, still people were complaining about that particular toll point.  As prior to 1982, FL 528 was a free road as the current Beachline Freeway was not yet built between present day exits 8 and 13.  A four lane arterial was in place of the freeway and charged nothing. 

When the road was upgraded to freeway to complete the missing link of FL 528's freeway (FL 528 was continuously numbered over the arterial which was McCoy Road) the toll went up and the free alternative became the service road, people complained about paying a toll as they never did before.  As the service road became the new McCoy Road, it got narrowed to two lanes and at its intersection with FL 436, it does a lot of weaving because of the current Exit 11 on FL 528, so the road veers northward and comes to meet with FL 436 at grade 2/10 mile north of the FL 528 and FL 436 interchange.  On the realigned McCoy Road near hear it is a longer distance than the 2/10 mile as it zigs very much and a reduced 35 mph speed limit makes the trip longer.

People will complain, no matter what. You charge for something that was not before and no one likes it.  Of course businesses and government agencies know that and if they have you over a barrel they will do it.  Look at gas prices as we need to use our cars, so naturally the price of oil is much higher than it was 15 years ago, as we have no choice to pay it or else we do not get to work or the market.  Demand, I believe is the word which is why the PTC will jack up prices just like every other commodity out there.

And this is what throws the fact that people are not making more money into this. Inflation with no more wage, no wonder people want the minimum wage raised. But politics are another Flamewarconversation........
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 09, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
It'll come to the point where 78, 80 and 30 will be reasonable shunpikes.
I'd take 22 before 30.

30 is awful east of Lancaster.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 09, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Most of this expensive toll rate thing is because PA is quite SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County are broke and would massively cut-back operations or impose huge fare increases on their riders without the enormous diversion of toll revenue from Pennsylvania Turnpike patrons. Really, just find a toll rate that PennDOT and everyone else can be happy with.

FTFY.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 09, 2015, 11:49:54 AM
It'll come to the point where 78, 80 and 30 will be reasonable shunpikes.
I'd take 22 before 30.

30 is awful east of Lancaster.

The bypass isn't too bad if it doesn't have spillage traffic off of 202 but yeah you get east of Paoli you're screwed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 09, 2015, 01:04:39 PM
Most of this expensive toll rate thing is because PA is quite SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County are broke and would massively cut-back operations or impose huge fare increases on their riders without the enormous diversion of toll revenue from Pennsylvania Turnpike patrons.
FTFY.
Prior to the passage of Act 89; SEPTA actually threatened to shut down about 60% of its Regional Rail sytem (including the line I use for commuting) and retire all its remaining Silverliner IV cars without replacements.  As a result, then-Gov. Corbett blinked (some say that move cost him his re-election bid later that year) and the rest is history.

30 is awful east of Lancaster.
The bypass isn't too bad if it doesn't have spillage traffic off of 202 but yeah you get east of Paoli you're screwed.
CP's referring to the stretch of US 30 between the bypass (just west of Coatesville) and Lancaster.  That stretch of road does get congested... even on weekends.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on July 09, 2015, 09:00:05 PM
It's going to be even more ridiculous when (future I-295 / ) I-95 north of Trenton's crossing via the Scudder Falls Bridge will become tolled.
What agency will be tolling that upgraded crossing?  I'm assuming that it will be the DRJTBC (which tolls the US 1 crossing).  Hopefully, they'll have the decency to show some restraint with the future toll rate.  IMHO, that new crossing (Scudder Falls) should not have a PA-bound toll higher than $3 (for passenger vehicles).  All other DRJTBC tolled crossings are currently only $1.

DRJTBC owns the Scudder Falls Bridge. Also I believe the tolls are going up to fund the bridge widening (or are they flat out replacing it?) project so hopefully they go away after its paid for. *snickers*

That the Scudder bridge is going toll is news to me.  When was it first announced?  Google isn't helping.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on July 09, 2015, 09:43:23 PM
30 is awful east of Lancaster.
The bypass isn't too bad if it doesn't have spillage traffic off of 202 but yeah you get east of Paoli you're screwed.
CP's referring to the stretch of US 30 between the bypass (just west of Coatesville) and Lancaster.  That stretch of road does get congested... even on weekends.
I use 30 as a shunpike quite a bit to visit relatives near Gettysburg.  Unless I really have to make time, I usually go with 30 because I find the turnpike horribly boring between Valley Forge and Harrisburg.  Most of it I find to be relatively fine (typically driving this on a weekend), except I agree on the stretch immediately east of the freeway segment around Lancaster.  I believe there's some improvements coming soon at 41 in Gap, although I'd like to see something done in the aforementioned segment.  If we're lucky, they will start building a bypass here, grade the roadways, install some bridges and then abandon the project to continue the County's limited access goat path network.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 10, 2015, 08:29:01 AM
That the Scudder bridge is going toll is news to me.  When was it first announced?  Google isn't helping.

ixnay

December 2010 (http://scudderfallsbridge.com/projectstatusupdate.htm).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 10, 2015, 08:45:17 AM
That the Scudder bridge is going toll is news to me.  When was it first announced?  Google isn't helping.

ixnay

December 2010 (http://scudderfallsbridge.com/projectstatusupdate.htm).

Actually, December 2009!

https://www.drjtbc.org/default.aspx?pageid=735

Quote
In December 2009, the Commission voted to establish cashless tolling for the Scudder Falls Replacement Bridge. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 10, 2015, 10:55:44 PM
It'll come to the point where 78, 80 and 30 will be reasonable shunpikes.
I'd take 22 before 30.

30 is awful east of Lancaster.
You can take 741 or 340.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 12, 2015, 02:22:01 AM
Philly.com: Pa. Turnpike looks to do away with toll collectors (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/columnists/20150709_Pa__Turnpike_looks_to_do_away_with_toll_collectors.html)

Quote
The opening of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's first all-electronic toll facility in Bucks County in January will be the first step toward doing away with cash tolls - and toll collectors - all along the turnpike.

Quote
All-electronic tolling also is part of the long-delayed direct connection between the turnpike and I-95, now under construction.

Quote
In January, when all turnpike tolls are to be increased by 6 percent, a new electronic toll will also be imposed on westbound vehicles at the eastern end of the turnpike. The toll will be $5 for vehicles with E-ZPass and $6.75 for those without. The non-E-ZPass vehicles' owners will be billed by mail, based on license plates.

Quote
That is a harbinger of the future.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 12, 2015, 11:11:58 AM
Philly.com: Pa. Turnpike looks to do away with toll collectorsl (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/columnists/20150709_Pa__Turnpike_looks_to_do_away_with_toll_collectors.html)

so of course the article's picture is of a toll both on the NJ Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on July 12, 2015, 02:47:04 PM
Philly.com: Pa. Turnpike looks to do away with toll collectorsl (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/columnists/20150709_Pa__Turnpike_looks_to_do_away_with_toll_collectors.html)

so of course the article's picture is of a toll both on the NJ Turnpike.

The article is from Philadelphia, so what do you expect?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 12, 2015, 04:25:42 PM
I'm pretty sure news organizations these days just google "toll booths" and grab the first image they find rather than actually sending out a photographer.  There's been a lot of downsizing these days.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on July 12, 2015, 04:40:59 PM
A toll booth is a toll booth in some people's mind.  It does not matter which road its on, its all the same I feel that some believe.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 13, 2015, 11:02:05 AM
I use 30 as a shunpike quite a bit to visit relatives near Gettysburg.  Unless I really have to make time, I usually go with 30 because I find the turnpike horribly boring between Valley Forge and Harrisburg.  Most of it I find to be relatively fine (typically driving this on a weekend), except I agree on the stretch immediately east of the freeway segment around Lancaster.
One downside with the freeway portions of 30, from Lancaster and points east, is that still has a posted 55-mph speed limit vs. the Turnpike's posted 65 and 70 (west of I-176/Morgantown) limits.

I believe there's some improvements coming soon at 41 in Gap, although I'd like to see something done in the aforementioned segment.  If we're lucky, they will start building a bypass here, grade the roadways, install some bridges and then abandon the project to continue the County's limited access goat path network.
Not to sound like a skeptic, but I'll believe such when I actually see it being built.  Truth be told, fictional territory here, there needs to be a US 30 freeway link between PA 462 and Coatesville (just east of PA 10) as well as an upgrade of PA 41 into a freeway north of US 1.

You can take 741 or 340.
The downside of using those roads are when one gets behind a slowpoke (I'm not just talking about Amish buggies) and there's no passing zones (741 has a few, 340... not so much); and one has to slow down when going through some towns.

While both are good alternatives to 30; such may not be of help regarding the PA Turnpike (which is further north).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 13, 2015, 01:03:05 PM
there's also no good alternatives if you're coming from north of the city. as it is, if i'm going to the Lansdale/Collegeville/Phoenixville area, my options are to take route 1 down to the Turnpike and then back up the NE Ext or back-road the entire thing at a significant time cost - and that's not even that long a trip.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 13, 2015, 01:33:42 PM
there's also no good alternatives if you're coming from north of the city. as it is, if i'm going to the Lansdale/Collegeville/Phoenixville area, my options are to take route 1 down to the Turnpike and then back up the NE Ext or back-road the entire thing at a significant time cost - and that's not even that long a trip.

Depending on the time of day 309 is a good option. Traffic can suck at times but on a good day 309 can get you up to Lansdale and 63, 73 and 663 can get you to western Montco in a breeze.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 13, 2015, 02:32:28 PM
there's also no good alternatives if you're coming from north of the city. as it is, if i'm going to the Lansdale/Collegeville/Phoenixville area, my options are to take route 1 down to the Turnpike and then back up the NE Ext or back-road the entire thing at a significant time cost - and that's not even that long a trip.

Depending on the time of day 309 is a good option. Traffic can suck at times but on a good day 309 can get you up to Lansdale and 63, 73 and 663 can get you to western Montco in a breeze.
309 is an alternative to the NE Extension only, not the mainline Turnpike. My backup route is actually 95-1-276-309-73 instead of 95-1-276-476.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 13, 2015, 02:47:05 PM
there's also no good alternatives if you're coming from north of the city. as it is, if i'm going to the Lansdale/Collegeville/Phoenixville area, my options are to take route 1 down to the Turnpike and then back up the NE Ext or back-road the entire thing at a significant time cost - and that's not even that long a trip.

Depending on the time of day 309 is a good option. Traffic can suck at times but on a good day 309 can get you up to Lansdale and 63, 73 and 663 can get you to western Montco in a breeze.
309 is an alternative to the NE Extension only, not the mainline Turnpike. My backup route is actually 95-1-276-309-73 instead of 95-1-276-476.
If you really wanna shunpike, you could use US 1 to PA 132 to PA 611 to PA 73/PA 309.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2015, 02:51:04 PM
there's also no good alternatives if you're coming from north of the city. as it is, if i'm going to the Lansdale/Collegeville/Phoenixville area, my options are to take route 1 down to the Turnpike and then back up the NE Ext or back-road the entire thing at a significant time cost - and that's not even that long a trip.

Depending on the time of day 309 is a good option. Traffic can suck at times but on a good day 309 can get you up to Lansdale and 63, 73 and 663 can get you to western Montco in a breeze.
309 is an alternative to the NE Extension only, not the mainline Turnpike. My backup route is actually 95-1-276-309-73 instead of 95-1-276-476.

My relatives in Pennsylvania refer to PA 309 as "The Old Road."  *shrug*
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 13, 2015, 05:49:52 PM
there's also no good alternatives if you're coming from north of the city. as it is, if i'm going to the Lansdale/Collegeville/Phoenixville area, my options are to take route 1 down to the Turnpike and then back up the NE Ext or back-road the entire thing at a significant time cost - and that's not even that long a trip.

Depending on the time of day 309 is a good option. Traffic can suck at times but on a good day 309 can get you up to Lansdale and 63, 73 and 663 can get you to western Montco in a breeze.
309 is an alternative to the NE Extension only, not the mainline Turnpike. My backup route is actually 95-1-276-309-73 instead of 95-1-276-476.
If you really wanna shunpike, you could use US 1 to PA 132 to PA 611 to PA 73/PA 309.
no thanks. Street Rd is to be avoided, not sought out.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2015, 05:50:38 PM
(http://That's)(http://[IMG][[IMG][/uIMG]/zA[IMG])sus[ttc ysyIMG](http://)[/IMG]z 5et first place tIMG][/IMG]

That is so inappropriate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: robbones on July 13, 2015, 07:02:56 PM
(http://That's)(http://[IMG][[IMG][/uIMG]/zA[IMG])sus[ttc ysyIMG](http://)[/IMG]z 5et first place tIMG][/IMG]

That is so inappropriate.
Sorry I pocket replied
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on July 13, 2015, 08:43:04 PM
I'm going to be visiting lower Bucks County in a few weeks. Is something happening with Street Rd. that I need to know about?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 13, 2015, 08:54:57 PM
The non-freeway segment of US 30 east of Lancaster can be a sluggish nightmare. No place to pass. Slowpokes and road hogs aplenty. When I lived in Philadelphia and worked for PennDOT, I'd frequently need to attend meetings and conferences in Harrisburg. After becoming bored with the Turnpike and looking to skip the tolls, I'd sometimes shunpike via PA 282, US 30, and US 202. The two-lane portion was just so blasted aggravating that it more than negatively made up for the toll. It was much slower and immeasurably more annoying. If I were forced to always take that shunpike route, I would've begged and pleaded for the privilege of paying the toll and using the Turnpike.

I'm going to be visiting lower Bucks County in a few weeks. Is something happening with Street Rd. that I need to know about?

Yes, but it happens every day. It's always a parking lot. I think it was born that way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 13, 2015, 09:20:27 PM
I'm going to be visiting lower Bucks County in a few weeks. Is something happening with Street Rd. that I need to know about?
other than the casino driving traffic far beyond what the road is designed to handle, no. avoid it like the plague during rush hour or any special event.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on July 14, 2015, 09:39:19 PM
Thanks guys. I'll be staying at the Holiday Inn next to the casino. I was there a year ago and didn't have any traffic problems on Street Rd. Has it gotten worse since then?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 15, 2015, 06:19:31 AM
Thanks guys. I'll be staying at the Holiday Inn next to the casino. I was there a year ago and didn't have any traffic problems on Street Rd. Has it gotten worse since then?

From a year ago?  I wouldn't say so, but then again, you can only go from worse to worser at that point.  If you last visited 10 years ago I would say you would notice a big change.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on July 15, 2015, 03:57:04 PM
I never think of Street Road as horrible from Rt 1 to Parx.  I would consider it horrible from Rt 1 to the Northwest.  It's pretty horrible going both ways to the northwest of the Rt 1 area, and the turnpike is a no-brainer unless you're just going on Street Road to Philmont Ave to 63 as a way to get to Willow Grove.  (Even then its going to cost you some time).  All in all, the PATP is the only quick way to get between Lower Bucks/Montgomery and KOP or Valley Forge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 16, 2015, 03:20:22 PM
Midgets hang over BGS New E-ZPass-only Pa. turnpike ramps hit thousands with $64 bill

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20150717_New_E-ZPass-only_Pa__turnpike_ramps_hit_thousands_with__64_bill.html

And...no surprise here...GPS is to blame for many people taking the EZ Pass exit when they don't have EZ Pass.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 16, 2015, 03:49:34 PM
Midgets hang over BGS New E-ZPass-only Pa. turnpike ramps hit thousands with $64 bill

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20150717_New_E-ZPass-only_Pa__turnpike_ramps_hit_thousands_with__64_bill.html

And...no surprise here...GPS is to blame for many people taking the EZ Pass exit when they don't have EZ Pass.

Just another reason to switch to AET on the turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 16, 2015, 06:09:00 PM
And...no surprise here...GPS is to blame for many people taking the EZ Pass exit when they don't have EZ Pass.
Given that this interchange just opened 2 weeks ago; I don't believe that all the various GPS navigation maps, info., etc. out there have been yet updated to include the interchange.  A GPS-reason for that interchange currently would be; why did one miss that interchange?

Just another reason to switch to AET on the turnpike.
Such will be coming; just not for a few years.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 16, 2015, 06:11:56 PM
Just another reason to switch to AET on the turnpike.
Such will be coming; just not for a few years.

Sorry about that. I didn't make it clear I know that AET is coming to the turnpike and I meant for it to be just saying it is another reason for switching to AET.
No sarcasm intended
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on July 16, 2015, 08:32:30 PM
And...no surprise here...GPS is to blame for many people taking the EZ Pass exit when they don't have EZ Pass.
Given that this interchange just opened 2 weeks ago; I don't believe that all the various GPS navigation maps, info., etc. out there have been yet updated to include the interchange.  A GPS-reason for that interchange currently would be; why did one miss that interchange?

For "legacy" GPS head units, such as Garmin, etc. this is true. For those that use Google/Waze or Apple maps for directions, it does indeed route you off this interchange for nearby destinations. It still shows the issues of over-reliance on such technology... The PA-903 ramps even have "E-Z Pass only" on the exit ramps in addition to the yellow tag-holder only banners. Of course, there are a number of low clearance signs before a railroad bridge in Syracuse, NY that have also been ignored... so...

One interesting tidbit from the article is that penalties will be reduced if you retained your entry ticket.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 16, 2015, 10:22:19 PM
Midgets hang over BGS New E-ZPass-only Pa. turnpike ramps hit thousands with $64 bill

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20150717_New_E-ZPass-only_Pa__turnpike_ramps_hit_thousands_with__64_bill.html

Quote
(For a driver with E-ZPass, the lowest toll at the new ramp would be $1.07.)

Find that hard to believe.  Especially if the person is coming from the Warendale Toll Plaza (not the Ohio Boarder since that section of the Turnpike is FREE after you enter the state).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 16, 2015, 11:25:04 PM
Midgets hang over BGS New E-ZPass-only Pa. turnpike ramps hit thousands with $64 bill

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20150717_New_E-ZPass-only_Pa__turnpike_ramps_hit_thousands_with__64_bill.html

Quote
(For a driver with E-ZPass, the lowest toll at the new ramp would be $1.07.)

Find that hard to believe.  Especially if the person is coming from the Warendale Toll Plaza (not the Ohio Boarder since that section of the Turnpike is FREE after you enter the state).

The $1.07 is someone who entered at the Pocono interchange and exited at 903, traveling 8 miles.  Someone coming from Ohio and exiting here would be paying a total of $35.11.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2015, 11:20:45 AM
For "legacy" GPS head units, such as Garmin, etc. this is true. For those that use Google/Waze or Apple maps for directions, it does indeed route you off this interchange for nearby destinations.
I'd be curious to know when did Google/Waze or Apple maps update their info. to include a brand-new interchange that opened just 2 weeks ago?

Another related-question would be: what's the percentage of GPS/navigation units out there that are legacy types (Garmin, Tom-Tom, etc.) vs. Google/Waze or Apple?  My guess would be the former for the simple reasoning that such has been on the market longer than the latter.

Side bar: The current PA State map, that came out this past year, as well as the AAA maps for PA don't yet show this new interchange.  AAA typically updates their road maps annually; PA updates their every 2 years.

True story (and I posted similar on Facebook): when the US 202 Parkway in Bucks County was only a few months old (when first opened to traffic); I directed a friend of mine (who's only a few months older than I) to a party in the Doylestown area along said-Parkway (it was a more-direct route: PA 309 from Fort Washington to US 202 North).  Later on, I receive a phone call from him stating that the factory Navigation unit on his recently-purchased vehicle (a new Chevy Equinox) did not recognize the new parkway.  I told him to just ignore his unit (it's not like these things shoot out a death ray if one ignores its directions) and simply follow the signs but I found out later that he just went a different way (using PA 611 from Willow Grove) to get to the party.

It still shows the issues of over-reliance on such technology... The PA-903 ramps even have "E-Z Pass only" on the exit ramps in addition to the yellow tag-holder only banners.
You're preaching to the choir on this one.  There seems to be no cure for stupid.  When the Virginia Drive (Exit 340) partial interchange/slip ramps (I-276 Westbound only) opened in 2000 (well before the mass proliferation & usage of GPS navigation units); I wonder what was the percentage of accidental entries/exits by non-E-ZPass users took place?

Of course, there are a number of low clearance signs before a railroad bridge in Syracuse, NY that have also been ignored... so...
Don't even get me started on that one.  I've been screaming from the mountain-tops (regarding GPS users ignoring signs) ever since I heard about a 12-ft. high bus carrying 40 or so passengers struck a 10-ft. high overpass along Soldiers Field Road (a road that has tons of signs and/or banners prohibiting overheight vehicles at every entrance ramp) in Boston several years ago and injured several passengers including a then-16-year-old who's currently in a quadriplegic state.

One interesting tidbit from the article is that penalties will be reduced if you retained your entry ticket.
It always pays to hold on to certain items.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on July 17, 2015, 01:40:45 PM
For "legacy" GPS head units, such as Garmin, etc. this is true. For those that use Google/Waze or Apple maps for directions, it does indeed route you off this interchange for nearby destinations.
I'd be curious to know when did Google/Waze or Apple maps update their info. to include a brand-new interchange that opened just 2 weeks ago?

I would be too, but I did test it before posting  :)...


King of Prussia Mall to Lake Harmony, PA (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/King+of+Prussia+Mall,+North+Gulph+Road,+King+of+Prussia,+PA/Lake+Harmony,+PA+18624/@40.5733117,-76.0619593,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6944ab30b8765:0x21c6a02d866542a5!2m2!1d-75.3857776!2d40.0890706!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c4f8d76e29dd37:0x5b8c48bbb08f44c8!2m2!1d-75.5910219!2d41.0606423)

Edit -- funny, looking at the map close-in, they haven't even added the fact it is a full interchange, only showing northbound exit and southbound entry...

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2015, 02:12:04 PM
For "legacy" GPS head units, such as Garmin, etc. this is true. For those that use Google/Waze or Apple maps for directions, it does indeed route you off this interchange for nearby destinations.
I'd be curious to know when did Google/Waze or Apple maps update their info. to include a brand-new interchange that opened just 2 weeks ago?

I would be too, but I did test it before posting  :)...


King of Prussia Mall to Lake Harmony, PA (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/King+of+Prussia+Mall,+North+Gulph+Road,+King+of+Prussia,+PA/Lake+Harmony,+PA+18624/@40.5733117,-76.0619593,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6944ab30b8765:0x21c6a02d866542a5!2m2!1d-75.3857776!2d40.0890706!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c4f8d76e29dd37:0x5b8c48bbb08f44c8!2m2!1d-75.5910219!2d41.0606423)

Edit -- funny, looking at the map close-in, they haven't even added the fact it is a full interchange, only showing northbound exit and southbound entry...



Yeah, it wouldn't be a secret that the interchange was opening.  Programs - especially those dealing with traffic - are set to automatically adjust their directions once an interchange or highway opens.

Very similar to when a highway is closed, such as when the I-495 overpass in Wilmington experienced an emergency shutdown last summer.  Within about 2 days, Google practically wiped that portion of 495 off the map, and anyone looking up directions would have been routed another way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2015, 03:42:50 PM
I did test it before posting  :)...

King of Prussia Mall to Lake Harmony, PA (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/King+of+Prussia+Mall,+North+Gulph+Road,+King+of+Prussia,+PA/Lake+Harmony,+PA+18624/@40.5733117,-76.0619593,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6944ab30b8765:0x21c6a02d866542a5!2m2!1d-75.3857776!2d40.0890706!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c4f8d76e29dd37:0x5b8c48bbb08f44c8!2m2!1d-75.5910219!2d41.0606423)

Edit -- funny, looking at the map close-in, they haven't even added the fact it is a full interchange, only showing northbound exit and southbound entry...
For grins & giggles, using Google Maps, I tried using a Scranton to PA 903 (just south of the new interchange) trip and the directions would not allow using the new interchange.  Such more than proves my earlier point regarding GPS systems either not updating at all nor completely providing the updated info. when conditions change.

Yeah, it wouldn't be a secret that the interchange was opening.
True, but the exact opening date may not have been known too far in advance; and even if a target opening date was set in advance, such can be subject to change at the last minute.

Programs - especially those dealing with traffic - are set to automatically adjust their directions once an interchange or highway opens.
Not necessarily, see the above-examples regarding the US 202 Parkway (after being open for a few months) and the fore-mentioned mock itinerary from Scranton to the new PA 903 interchange.

Very similar to when a highway is closed, such as when the I-495 overpass in Wilmington experienced an emergency shutdown last summer.  Within about 2 days, Google practically wiped that portion of 495 off the map, and anyone looking up directions would have been routed another way.
The reasons for the Google's (& others') swift actions with the I-495 closure were:

1.  It was an emergency/safety-related closure.
2.  The road in question carries local as well as interstate (little i) traffic; it's a common pass-through route for out-of-state drivers.
3.  The highway's closure (& the reasons for it) were well publicized throughout the media.

When PA 23 (Valley Forge Road) at the Pickering Dam bridge was recently closed for a replacement project.  MapQuest (IIRC, MQ & Tom-Tom share the same info.) overcompensated the bridge closure to a point that when a friend of mine tried to get a set of directions from Delaware County to a conference center along PA 23 located east of the bridge (the closure should not have impacted the routing); he got a bunch of unnecessary twists & turns. 

In addtion and adding insult to injury, MQ ignored the destination and routed the itinerary onto a residence located at the end of a nearby dead-end road.  Something went clearly wrong with MQ (not sure if such has since been corrected).

When I read the directions (which were intended to be distributed for others to follow) and I tried to unsuccessfully force/alter the MQ routing but it wouldn't take.  I tried Bing Maps with the same origin & destination and got what I expected (straight-forward routing with no bridge-closure-related impacts).  I sent my friend the corrected directions and he distributed such to others and nobody (that had the corrected directions) got lost.

I guess the moral here is that there's still a human element involved regarding GPS/Map updates.  They don't just change automatically because of an opening or closure; somebody has to be programing/updating the info. or least checking/verifying such.  The partial-info. (via Google) for the PA 903 interchange and the MapQuest over-restriction for the PA 23 Pickering Dam bridge closure are examples of such glitches.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on July 18, 2015, 08:44:56 AM
How does one notify Google Maps of errors?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 18, 2015, 08:59:44 AM
How does one notify Google Maps of errors?

ixnay

In the modern Google maps there is a little pullout menu you can find at the far left side of the search bar. From there you can find a "Report a Data problem" button and that will let you report an error.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 18, 2015, 09:13:46 AM
Another related-question would be: what's the percentage of GPS/navigation units out there that are legacy types (Garmin, Tom-Tom, etc.) vs. Google/Waze or Apple?  My guess would be the former for the simple reasoning that such has been on the market longer than the latter.

I run TomTom's software and map data files on my tablet computer (have never used a stand-alone TomTom GPS unit).  Those are updated by TomTom on a regular basis, but unlike Google, they do not update for relatively short-term changes (like the I-495 bridge closure in Delaware).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2015, 10:07:33 AM
I did test it before posting  :)...

King of Prussia Mall to Lake Harmony, PA (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/King+of+Prussia+Mall,+North+Gulph+Road,+King+of+Prussia,+PA/Lake+Harmony,+PA+18624/@40.5733117,-76.0619593,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6944ab30b8765:0x21c6a02d866542a5!2m2!1d-75.3857776!2d40.0890706!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c4f8d76e29dd37:0x5b8c48bbb08f44c8!2m2!1d-75.5910219!2d41.0606423)

Edit -- funny, looking at the map close-in, they haven't even added the fact it is a full interchange, only showing northbound exit and southbound entry...
For grins & giggles, using Google Maps, I tried using a Scranton to PA 903 (just south of the new interchange) trip and the directions would not allow using the new interchange.  Such more than proves my earlier point regarding GPS systems either not updating at all nor completely providing the updated info. when conditions change.

Yeah, it wouldn't be a secret that the interchange was opening.
True, but the exact opening date may not have been known too far in advance; and even if a target opening date was set in advance, such can be subject to change at the last minute.

Programs - especially those dealing with traffic - are set to automatically adjust their directions once an interchange or highway opens.
Not necessarily, see the above-examples regarding the US 202 Parkway (after being open for a few months) and the fore-mentioned mock itinerary from Scranton to the new PA 903 interchange.

Very similar to when a highway is closed, such as when the I-495 overpass in Wilmington experienced an emergency shutdown last summer.  Within about 2 days, Google practically wiped that portion of 495 off the map, and anyone looking up directions would have been routed another way.
The reasons for the Google's (& others') swift actions with the I-495 closure were:

1.  It was an emergency/safety-related closure.
2.  The road in question carries local as well as interstate (little i) traffic; it's a common pass-through route for out-of-state drivers.
3.  The highway's closure (& the reasons for it) were well publicized throughout the media.

When PA 23 (Valley Forge Road) at the Pickering Dam bridge was recently closed for a replacement project.  MapQuest (IIRC, MQ & Tom-Tom share the same info.) overcompensated the bridge closure to a point that when a friend of mine tried to get a set of directions from Delaware County to a conference center along PA 23 located east of the bridge (the closure should not have impacted the routing); he got a bunch of unnecessary twists & turns. 

In addtion and adding insult to injury, MQ ignored the destination and routed the itinerary onto a residence located at the end of a nearby dead-end road.  Something went clearly wrong with MQ (not sure if such has since been corrected).

When I read the directions (which were intended to be distributed for others to follow) and I tried to unsuccessfully force/alter the MQ routing but it wouldn't take.  I tried Bing Maps with the same origin & destination and got what I expected (straight-forward routing with no bridge-closure-related impacts).  I sent my friend the corrected directions and he distributed such to others and nobody (that had the corrected directions) got lost.

I guess the moral here is that there's still a human element involved regarding GPS/Map updates.  They don't just change automatically because of an opening or closure; somebody has to be programing/updating the info. or least checking/verifying such.  The partial-info. (via Google) for the PA 903 interchange and the MapQuest over-restriction for the PA 23 Pickering Dam bridge closure are examples of such glitches.

Ok, then let's say it another way: the interchange opened two weeks ago.  It's not on anyone's maps. It wouldn't be in driving directions printed from the internet. I wouldn't think it would be on the toll tickets (not that many people can read them anyway).  Anyone approaching the interchange and not from the area presumably wouldn't know the interchange exists. Among the info presented is that big "EZ Pass Tagholders Only" yellow warning message. Why would people just randomly use the interchange then?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 20, 2015, 10:10:54 AM
I wouldn't think it would be on the toll tickets (not that many people can read them anyway).
Since this interchange is E-ZPass Only; it would not be printed on toll tickets at all.  The same is true for the other three E-ZPass only interchanges (PA 29, PA 132 & Virginia Drive). 

Anyone approaching the interchange and not from the area presumably wouldn't know the interchange exists. Among the info presented is that big "EZ Pass Tagholders Only" yellow warning message. Why would people just randomly use the interchange then?
The article doesn't specifically mention how many accidental users blame GPS' for using this particular interchange (PA 903).  It seems to, in essense, cover all of the E-ZPass Only interchanges for GPS-related unauthorized uses.  The other three E-ZPass Only interchanges have been open longer and have had been since updated into GPS mapping and data systems (note: the Virginia Drive interchange to/from I-276 West predated GPS systems and was already included).

Based on Flyer78's observations; Google has indeed included a portion of the PA 903 interchange in short order but not the rest (to & from points north).  One has to wonder had Google did the opposite (included the to/from access ramps from the north but not those to/from the south); would the number of GPS-related unauthorized usages for this interchange occurred at all?  It's a reasonable assumption that most of the traffic using this interchange is northbound exiting/southbound entering.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 20, 2015, 04:28:17 PM
Ok, then let's say it another way: the interchange opened two weeks ago.  It's not on anyone's maps. It wouldn't be in driving directions printed from the internet. I wouldn't think it would be on the toll tickets (not that many people can read them anyway).  Anyone approaching the interchange and not from the area presumably wouldn't know the interchange exists. Among the info presented is that big "EZ Pass Tagholders Only" yellow warning message. Why would people just randomly use the interchange then?

It will be on TomTom's map the next time they update.

I sent them a message suggesting they may want to include a warning about use of this interchange for reasons stated above.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 27, 2015, 01:17:33 PM
BucksLocalNews.com: Pennsylvania Turnpike okays rates for Delaware River bridge electronic toll; changes paving way for direct connection with I-95 (http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/2015/07/25/bucks_news/doc55b26f78eebf7886993865.txt?viewmode=default)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) has approved toll rates for a cashless, nonstop tolling point for westbound motorists crossing the Delaware River Bridge from New Jersey into Pennsylvania on Interstate 276.

Quote
E-ZPass customers, who make up more than 80 percent of traffic at the bridge, will pay $5 for a two-axle vehicle; non-E-ZPass customers will pay $6.75 via Toll by Plate, a system that will take an image of the license plate and mail an invoice to the vehicle’s owner. Each additional axel will cost an additional $5 for E-ZPass customers and an additional $6.75 for non-E-ZPass customers.

Quote
The Delaware River Bridge electronic toll is a critical element of the PTC’s $1.4 billion project to connect I-95 and the Turnpike. “This is a vital project for the commission and the region and an essential first step in creating a long-awaited direct link between the Turnpike and I-95,”  said Turnpike Chairman Sean Logan.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 27, 2015, 01:53:17 PM
BucksLocalNews.com: Pennsylvania Turnpike okays rates for Delaware River bridge electronic toll; changes paving way for direct connection with I-95 (http://www.buckslocalnews.com/articles/2015/07/25/bucks_news/doc55b26f78eebf7886993865.txt?viewmode=default)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) has approved toll rates for a cashless, nonstop tolling point for westbound motorists crossing the Delaware River Bridge from New Jersey into Pennsylvania on Interstate 276.

Quote
E-ZPass customers, who make up more than 80 percent of traffic at the bridge, will pay $5 for a two-axle vehicle; non-E-ZPass customers will pay $6.75 via Toll by Plate, a system that will take an image of the license plate and mail an invoice to the vehicle’s owner. Each additional axel will cost an additional $5 for E-ZPass customers and an additional $6.75 for non-E-ZPass customers.

Quote
The Delaware River Bridge electronic toll is a critical element of the PTC’s $1.4 billion project to connect I-95 and the Turnpike. “This is a vital project for the commission and the region and an essential first step in creating a long-awaited direct link between the Turnpike and I-95,”  said Turnpike Chairman Sean Logan.

Someone in a car going south will save approximately $2.40 by using Interchange 6 of the NJ Turnpike rather than continuing down to Interchange 1.  Then they won't have to pay the Delaware Memorial Bridge toll of $4.  But, they will be spending $5 (w/ EZ Pass) to cross over to the PA Turnpike.  Thus, the net savings of following I-95 rather than the NJ Turnpike & 295 is only going to be approximately $1.60.  If they don't have EZ Pass, it will actually be approximately 15 cents more expensive to follow 95.

Note: I use approximately because the price difference between Interchange 6 and 1 varies based on where you entered the turnpike, ranging from $1.85 (Interchange 8A) and $2.70 (Interchanges 7 & 15W).  The Turnpike calculates its tolls by the mile on average, but as you can see it can vary quite a bit.  Also, I used EZ Pass Rush Hour/Weekend rates for the NJ Turnpike; the non-peak rates results in a smaller savings I believe.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 27, 2015, 02:27:55 PM
Since I've treked back-and-forth (Greater Philly to New England) many times over the last 25 years; let's do an actual real-world comparison (note: I have a PTC-issued E-ZPass, so off-peak rates for NJ toll roads don't apply).

NJTP from Exit 11 to 7A: $2.45
Using I-195 West to I-295 South to I-76 West (via the Walt Whitman Bridge): $5.00
Total: $7.45
Completely reverse-direction toll: $2.45

Round-trip total: $9.90

NJTP from Exit 11 to Exit 6: $3.50
PA Turnpike Exit 359 (toll barrier) to Exit 358 (US 13): $1.46 (FYI cash rate $2.15)
Total: $4.96
Complete reverse-direction toll: $4.96

Round-trip toll: $9.92

Exit 11-Exit 6-Exit 358 but Exit 7A to Exit 11 reverse (I presently use this intinerary for my travels): $4.96 + $2.45
Round-trip toll: $7.41

Tolls with new PA Turnpike gantry

Exit 11-Exit 6-Exit 358 (or Future I-95 South connection when complete):$3.50 + $5
Total: $8.50
Complete reverse-direction toll: $3.50
Round-trip toll: $12

Exit 11-Exit 6-Exit 358 but Exit 7A to Exit 11 reverse (I presently use this intinerary for my travels): $8.50 + $2.45
Round-trip toll: $10.95
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 03, 2015, 01:32:07 PM
post-gazette.com: Toll collectors to disappear on Beaver Valley Expressway (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/08/03/Toll-collectors-to-disappear-on-Beaver-Valley-Expressway/stories/201508030021)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike hopes to do away with toll collectors and tossing coins into baskets on the 16.5-mile Beaver Valley Expressway next summer.

Quote
Plans call for implementing all-electronic collection on the expressway, which is the tolled portion of Interstate 376 stretching from Chippewa in Beaver County to New Castle in Lawrence County.

Quote
People with E-ZPass would be billed the same as today, but those without the transponders would have their license plates photographed. They would be billed monthly by mail for the equivalent of the former cash toll.

Quote
Cash tolls are about 40 percent more than E-ZPass tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 03, 2015, 08:01:55 PM
post-gazette.com: Toll collectors to disappear on Beaver Valley Expressway (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/08/03/Toll-collectors-to-disappear-on-Beaver-Valley-Expressway/stories/201508030021)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike hopes to do away with toll collectors and tossing coins into baskets on the 16.5-mile Beaver Valley Expressway next summer.

Quote
Plans call for implementing all-electronic collection on the expressway, which is the tolled portion of Interstate 376 stretching from Chippewa in Beaver County to New Castle in Lawrence County.

Quote
People with E-ZPass would be billed the same as today, but those without the transponders would have their license plates photographed. They would be billed monthly by mail for the equivalent of the former cash toll.

Quote
Cash tolls are about 40 percent more than E-ZPass tolls.

If you read the article, it sounds like it won't be ORT, but rather motorists will still have to slowly proceed through toll booths (similar to the Henry Hudson Bridge in NYC).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 03, 2015, 09:20:02 PM
post-gazette.com: Toll collectors to disappear on Beaver Valley Expressway (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/08/03/Toll-collectors-to-disappear-on-Beaver-Valley-Expressway/stories/201508030021)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike hopes to do away with toll collectors and tossing coins into baskets on the 16.5-mile Beaver Valley Expressway next summer.

Quote
Plans call for implementing all-electronic collection on the expressway, which is the tolled portion of Interstate 376 stretching from Chippewa in Beaver County to New Castle in Lawrence County.

Quote
People with E-ZPass would be billed the same as today, but those without the transponders would have their license plates photographed. They would be billed monthly by mail for the equivalent of the former cash toll.

Quote
Cash tolls are about 40 percent more than E-ZPass tolls.

If you read the article, it sounds like it won't be ORT, but rather motorists will still have to slowly proceed through toll booths (similar to the Henry Hudson Bridge in NYC).

It won't. Hell of a lot cheaper if they're doing it as more of a test case, which it appears they are. I doubt the traffic counts out there are high enough for true open-road to make a difference, anyway.

Certainly can't blame them for starting small, though. Better to work out the kinks if it's only in a couple places than to fix teething issues on the entire system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 04, 2015, 12:51:46 PM
One would think AET would be a known quantity, given how many places already use it.  Or has each agency chosen to reinvent the wheel?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on August 04, 2015, 08:48:35 PM
I think it's because they wanted to test without having to remove the 'mainline' toll booths on I-376 to see how traffic 'works'.

If the history of the Golden Gate toll plaza says something, we're going to hear about possible wrecks and backups because people are stopping in the lanes trying to pay cash.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 05, 2015, 10:20:49 AM
One would think AET would be a known quantity, given how many places already use it.  Or has each agency chosen to reinvent the wheel?

Though consider that it only takes a few drivers who do not understand AET (and there will be some of those) to cause major traffic problems.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 05, 2015, 12:13:20 PM
One would think AET would be a known quantity, given how many places already use it.  Or has each agency chosen to reinvent the wheel?

Actually, AET is not really well known, especially by those in the Northeast.  There's only a few toll roads in the nation that use it, so it would be understandable if very few people have actually encountered it. 

Because each agency has its own hardware, software, computer components, accounting, DMV agreements, bondholder agreements., etc, there are a number of nuances that each toll authority has to work with.  And I'm not sure that there's any toll roads using AET that charge you based on the distance traveled as of yet.  Most AETs are just charging a fixed toll.  Even the toll roads that charge based on entry-exit points, those that use an EZ Pass lane without an EZ Pass are charged a maximum fare, not the exact fare, so that shows there's a bit of work that would need to be done to figure out AET based on entry-exit points alone.

The equipment itself is fairly basic: readers, cameras, over-road gantries, etc.  But even if 80% or so of the toll road traffic has EZ Pass, that still leaves thousands of vehicles - if not tens of thousands - paying cash, and with AET that would mean paying bills sent at a later date.

While I wouldn't call it reinventing the wheel, there are so many unique factors that need to be considered that it is pretty damn close to that though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 05, 2015, 12:52:48 PM
We already have AET E-ZPass facilities, so in terms of equipment, it's already a solved problem.  All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.  As for users, there would be a lot less hassle if they put in gantries like a permanent install; most of the booth hassles are because people don't realize they're on an AET facility and don't realize that the booths are abandoned.

As for charging the maximum far for non-E-ZPass users... that's because it's a penalty, not because it can't be done.  Since it's illegal for users without E-ZPass to use E-ZPass only lanes, the agencies went cheap and didn't install cameras on the entry lanes.  Simply installing the cameras and making the administrative changes would fix that.  Plus they can just call the people who run ON 407 if they have questions.  The main reason most facilities convert to barrier systems with AET is because that's trendy right now (and because of the "who gives a crap if there's 10 different charges for 1 trip instead of 1 when they're not stopping" issue; never mind that some of us like the cleaner E-ZPass statements that come from having everything combined).

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on August 05, 2015, 12:58:47 PM

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   :clap:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 05, 2015, 02:26:19 PM

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   :clap:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.  Most agencies need to bid out their work.   Unless they have a really good reason, they have to award the bid to the lowest bidder.  If the lowest bidder says that they can create a AET system, and there's no reasonable doubt they can't, they are awarded the bid.  It's almost guaranteed that if the agency says that they prefer another vendor because of their work on another toll agency's system, even though their bid was higher, the agency will be taken to court.

EZ Pass itself, while a unified network to the motorist, is made up of numerous different systems.  Even more complicated is that they are now cross-honoring passes and accounts from other networks outside of EZ Pass.

And remember - AET isn't a specific thing (all it stands for is All Electronic Tolling), so it can't convince anyone to do anything.  While Maryland instituted AET with EZ Pass on the ICC, it was hardly the first to do so...Texas, Florida & California all had all-electronic tolling options prior to Maryland and EZ Pass.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on August 05, 2015, 02:32:25 PM

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   :clap:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.  Most agencies need to bid out their work.   Unless they have a really good reason, they have to award the bid to the lowest bidder.  If the lowest bidder says that they can create a AET system, and there's no reasonable doubt they can't, they are awarded the bid.  It's almost guaranteed that if the agency says that they prefer another vendor because of their work on another toll agency's system, even though their bid was higher, the agency will be taken to court.

EZ Pass itself, while a unified network to the motorist, is made up of numerous different systems.  Even more complicated is that they are now cross-honoring passes and accounts from other networks outside of EZ Pass.

And remember - AET isn't a specific thing (all it stands for is All Electronic Tolling), so it can't convince anyone to do anything.  While Maryland instituted AET with EZ Pass on the ICC, it was hardly the first to do so...Texas, Florida & California all had all-electronic tolling options prior to Maryland and EZ Pass.


Although E-ZPass is a bunch of different systems, it has the benefit of being coordinated by the IAG.  Such a governance system could be implemented nationwide.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on August 05, 2015, 06:02:15 PM
All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.
ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 05, 2015, 06:41:33 PM
All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.
ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.

I've read that the PTC has been considering this model for the mainline, rather than simply replacing the entry/exit booths.  (No mention how it would be invoiced).
When I read that, I wondered if they would also re-toll the stretch between Cranberry & Ohio, since it would still be free-flowing, and charging travelers a little more fairly.
Wait and see, I suppose....
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 05, 2015, 09:38:56 PM

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   :clap:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.  Most agencies need to bid out their work.   Unless they have a really good reason, they have to award the bid to the lowest bidder.  If the lowest bidder says that they can create a AET system, and there's no reasonable doubt they can't, they are awarded the bid.  It's almost guaranteed that if the agency says that they prefer another vendor because of their work on another toll agency's system, even though their bid was higher, the agency will be taken to court.

EZ Pass itself, while a unified network to the motorist, is made up of numerous different systems.  Even more complicated is that they are now cross-honoring passes and accounts from other networks outside of EZ Pass.

And remember - AET isn't a specific thing (all it stands for is All Electronic Tolling), so it can't convince anyone to do anything.  While Maryland instituted AET with EZ Pass on the ICC, it was hardly the first to do so...Texas, Florida & California all had all-electronic tolling options prior to Maryland and EZ Pass.

They can't just design it in-house and only bid out for the actual installation?  Or put that stuff in as design parameters?  There are only so many ways to skin a cat... the technical end has been solved many times by many states (the reason I mentioned Maryland is because they're an E-ZPass state, some the implementation would likely be very similar if not identical).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 05, 2015, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane
…we need a lot less propitiatory stuff…

Do you mean "proprietary?" Propitiatory means "resulting in appeasement or pacification." Or am I just not seeing it right? (Wouldn't be the first time…)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on August 05, 2015, 11:11:14 PM
  Or put that stuff in as design parameters? 

This is what I was thinking.  If everyone used strict enough specs to make all systems compatible, I don't see how nationwide compatibility is so infeasible.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 06, 2015, 11:01:57 AM
All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.
ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.

I've read that the PTC has been considering this model for the mainline, rather than simply replacing the entry/exit booths.  (No mention how it would be invoiced).
When I read that, I wondered if they would also re-toll the stretch between Cranberry & Ohio, since it would still be free-flowing, and charging travelers a little more fairly.
Wait and see, I suppose....

Though on the other hand, the PTC is going ahead with a one-way all-electronic toll coming off the turnpike bridge over the Delaware River when the interchange at Bristol is complete enough to sign the far eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline as I-95. 

Since there will no longer be cash collected there, why not charge toll in both directions?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 06, 2015, 11:51:19 AM
All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.
ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.

I've read that the PTC has been considering this model for the mainline, rather than simply replacing the entry/exit booths.  (No mention how it would be invoiced).
When I read that, I wondered if they would also re-toll the stretch between Cranberry & Ohio, since it would still be free-flowing, and charging travelers a little more fairly.
Wait and see, I suppose....

Though on the other hand, the PTC is going ahead with a one-way all-electronic toll coming off the turnpike bridge over the Delaware River when the interchange at Bristol is complete enough to sign the far eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline as I-95. 

Since there will no longer be cash collected there, why not charge toll in both directions?

It would certainly be way fairer.

I imagine the thinking is that since every other toll authority charges leaving NJ only, that the PA Turnpike would do the same.  If the toll was charged in both directions, I would doubt people would go out of their way to avoid a $2.50 charge if they were already on the Turnpike, especially if they simply want to continue on the NJ Turnpike.  And going WB, I doubt many people would use the NJ Turnpike just to save $2.50 in PA.  And this is especially true as the NJ Turnpike will still charge a premium for using Interchange 6.

Maybe after they went thru the numbers, the expenses of running two-way tolling here didn't justify the revenues.  While there won't be toll takers any more, there will still be equipment expenses and maintenance.  But, I bet the big expenses would be hiring people to look up non-EZ Pass tagholder info and mailing that out.  They already need to do it for WB traffic anyway, but they would probably need to double the number of people - and mailings - if there was two way tolling.  Sure, some of those people would do roundtrips within a months' timespan, but that's not everyone.

I can understanding the justification for keeping it one-way tolling.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 06, 2015, 12:55:41 PM
I can understanding the justification for keeping it one-way tolling.
Had the PTC been smart when it first built that stretch in the 50s; the mainline toll plaza would've (IMHO, should've) been located just west of the Delaware Valley (US 13) interchange and smaller cash booths placed on the ramps for traffic entering to/exiting from bridge; it could've converted to a one-way toll system when the rest of the Delaware River crossings did in the early-to-mid 1990s.

Given the close proximity that Exit 358 (old Exit 29) is from the current mainline plaza; one has to take a ticket (for sake of argument, forget the adjacent E-ZPass booths, the former has been there longer than the latter), turn off at the immediate exit and drive for less than one mile to the toll booth to pay their toll.  For one returning to NJ, one does the reverse.

If the interchange was located several miles from the bridge, that's one thing; but the current setup is just absolutely asinine.

Thankfully, this new westbound AET set-up, will finally correct the current clusterf*ck of a set-up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 06, 2015, 06:52:24 PM
Maybe after they went thru the numbers, the expenses of running two-way tolling here didn't justify the revenues.  While there won't be toll takers any more, there will still be equipment expenses and maintenance.  But, I bet the big expenses would be hiring people to look up non-EZ Pass tagholder info and mailing that out.  They already need to do it for WB traffic anyway, but they would probably need to double the number of people - and mailings - if there was two way tolling.  Sure, some of those people would do roundtrips within a months' timespan, but that's not everyone.

I can understanding the justification for keeping it one-way tolling.
They're gonna need to hire those people anyways when the entire system goes AET.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 06, 2015, 07:54:09 PM
All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.
ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.

I've read that the PTC has been considering this model for the mainline, rather than simply replacing the entry/exit booths.  (No mention how it would be invoiced).
When I read that, I wondered if they would also re-toll the stretch between Cranberry & Ohio, since it would still be free-flowing, and charging travelers a little more fairly.
Wait and see, I suppose....

Though on the other hand, the PTC is going ahead with a one-way all-electronic toll coming off the turnpike bridge over the Delaware River when the interchange at Bristol is complete enough to sign the far eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline as I-95. 

Since there will no longer be cash collected there, why not charge toll in both directions?

It would certainly be way fairer.

I imagine the thinking is that since every other toll authority charges leaving NJ only, that the PA Turnpike would do the same.  If the toll was charged in both directions, I would doubt people would go out of their way to avoid a $2.50 charge if they were already on the Turnpike, especially if they simply want to continue on the NJ Turnpike.  And going WB, I doubt many people would use the NJ Turnpike just to save $2.50 in PA.  And this is especially true as the NJ Turnpike will still charge a premium for using Interchange 6.

Maybe after they went thru the numbers, the expenses of running two-way tolling here didn't justify the revenues.  While there won't be toll takers any more, there will still be equipment expenses and maintenance.  But, I bet the big expenses would be hiring people to look up non-EZ Pass tagholder info and mailing that out.  They already need to do it for WB traffic anyway, but they would probably need to double the number of people - and mailings - if there was two way tolling.  Sure, some of those people would do roundtrips within a months' timespan, but that's not everyone.

I can understanding the justification for keeping it one-way tolling.

Certainly the system of "pay to leave New Jersey" has been in place for many years at the state borders with New York and Pennsylvania. 

When the PANYNJ and the three toll agencies that operate crossings of the Delaware Bay and Delaware River go all-electronic (as they eventually will), then I wonder if the lot of them might want to return to two-way tolling. 

If memory serves, one-way tolls were about congestion relief at the toll barriers (since there was no electronic payment back then), and perhaps about saving some money (since fewer toll collectors were required).

With all electronic toll collection, it may make sense to return to two-way toll collection (it has gotten consideration in Maryland as part of the replacement of the Gov. Harry Nice Memorial Bridge (U.S. 301) over the Potomac River estuary, where tolls are currently collected southbound only).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 06, 2015, 09:42:16 PM
Because everyone going into New Jersey is probably going to come out of New Jersey at some point, there's probably no true advantage to toll both ways. The majority of people aren't going to seek a cheaper, alternative route. Not only do you have to double up the equipment for both directions, but...and this is what I alluded to earlier...you would actually have to hire more people to research and collect money from toll violators as there will be toll violators in both directions; not just one direction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on August 07, 2015, 08:49:30 PM
I completely agree with PHLBOS about beginning the controlled toll system at the Delaware River Bridge. The first time I ever got that toll-ticket there and then exited at the first exit (Levittown) I couldn't believe how ridiculous that was. Between that and no interchange at I-95, I wasn't too impressed with the PTC!

 Interestingly the New York Thruway Authority (which IMO was always smarter than the PTC) began their controlled-ticket system originally in Spring Valley (Rockland County) between exits 14A and 15, even though the Thruway began at the NYC line 24 miles further south. That's because they had so many exits at the south end of the Thruway. So they had barrier tolls the first few miles which made more sense.

In later years they even moved the start of the controlled system 20 miles further north to Harriman, exit-16, as they built more interchanges in the Spring Valley-Suffern area. Way to go!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 07, 2015, 08:54:08 PM
Because everyone going into New Jersey is probably going to come out of New Jersey at some point, there's probably no true advantage to toll both ways. The majority of people aren't going to seek a cheaper, alternative route. Not only do you have to double up the equipment for both directions, but...and this is what I alluded to earlier...you would actually have to hire more people to research and collect money from toll violators as there will be toll violators in both directions; not just one direction.

Equipment, hardware and software are cheap.  The marginal cost of adding gantries to an already-established AET system should not be terribly high. 

Presumably the cost of dealing with transponder non-reads (for any reason) would be about the same in a two-way system - in part because if someone uses a crossing once without a working transponder, and then crosses under an AET toll point a second time, the information is already on file.

Again, I am indifferent about one-way vs. two-way tolling. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on August 08, 2015, 12:14:40 AM
Because everyone going into New Jersey is probably going to come out of New Jersey at some point
Actually, quite a few people just stay here.
a) Because it's so wonderful
b) because people just die
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 08, 2015, 05:11:47 PM
Because everyone going into New Jersey is probably going to come out of New Jersey at some point
Actually, quite a few people just stay here.
a) Because we have self serve gas
b) because people just die
Zzzzxzzzyzzzzzqqwzzzyyz) Because it is so wonderful

Fixed.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 13, 2015, 11:01:55 AM
WTAE (4): 86-mile section of Pennsylvania Turnpike reopens entirely (http://www.wtae.com/news/closure-on-pennsylvania-turnpike-between-new-stanton-and-breezewood/34671164)

Quote
Pennsylvania Turnpike officials say the toll road has completely reopened in western Pennsylvania several hours after a truck crash closed the entire highway.

Quote
Westbound traffic resumed about 12:45 p.m. on the 86-mile stretch between Breezewood and New Stanton interchanges. That was announced about an hour after the eastbound lanes reopened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 18, 2015, 01:03:15 PM
I don't believe such was mentioned here as of yet, but along stretches of the Northeast Extension (I-476), north of Lansdale; the PTC has been installing enhanced mile markers (the ones that include the route number shield & direction) at every whole mile and large mile markers (w/no shield or direction) at every 0.1 mile.  These were installed along off the shoulders.  The older-style whole-mile markers, located on the median barrier, still remain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 18, 2015, 03:08:33 PM
I don't believe such was mentioned here as of yet, but along stretches of the Northeast Extension (I-476), north of Landale; the PTC has been installing enhanced mile markers (the ones that include the route number shield & direction) at every whole mile and large mile markers (w/no shield or direction) at every 0.1 mile.  These were installed along off the shoulders.  The older-style whole-mile markers, located on the median barrier, still remain.

I drove it in late June, and noticed those. 

The rebuilt section of I-476, from the I-276 (Mid-County) interchange north to Pa. 63 (Lansdale) has a very un-Pennsylvania Turnpike "look and feel" to it (and that is a complement).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on August 18, 2015, 03:15:47 PM
I don't believe such was mentioned here as of yet, but along stretches of the Northeast Extension (I-476), north of Landale; the PTC has been installing enhanced mile markers (the ones that include the route number shield & direction) at every whole mile and large mile markers (w/no shield or direction) at every 0.1 mile.  These were installed along off the shoulders.  The older-style whole-mile markers, located on the median barrier, still remain.

It's funny, I was coming here to post this... They are pretty much in place north of the construction zone up to the Clarks Summit exit.

I also noticed a large number of curve warning signs at 60 MPH -- perhaps 70 will be coming one day soon...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 18, 2015, 03:19:32 PM
The rebuilt section of I-476, from the I-276 (Mid-County) interchange north to Pa. 63 (Lansdale) has a very un-Pennsylvania Turnpike "look and feel" to it (and that is a complement).

I don’t think that’s a fair statement. I think it looks and feels very much like the other recently reconstructed sections of the PA Turnpike west of Carlisle. If you haven’t seen much of the PA Turnpike system lately, you really ought to make a weekend trip, because it has changed remarkably in recent years and is still transforming rapidly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: TravelingBethelite on August 18, 2015, 03:22:46 PM

Because everyone going into New Jersey is probably going to come out of New Jersey at some point

Not even Chris Christie wants to stay.  :bigass:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 21, 2015, 07:03:49 PM
I also noticed a large number of curve warning signs at 60 MPH -- perhaps 70 will be coming one day soon...

Possibly, but I would be more optimistic if some of the curves were posted at 65 MPH (as they are on the current 70 MPH section).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 21, 2015, 08:56:50 PM
The rebuilt section of I-476, from the I-276 (Mid-County) interchange north to Pa. 63 (Lansdale) has a very un-Pennsylvania Turnpike "look and feel" to it (and that is a complement).

I don’t think that’s a fair statement. I think it looks and feels very much like the other recently reconstructed sections of the PA Turnpike west of Carlisle. If you haven’t seen much of the PA Turnpike system lately, you really ought to make a weekend trip, because it has changed remarkably in recent years and is still transforming rapidly.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike west of Breezewood and the Northeast Extension are the sections I drive the most. 

Only been on the East-West Mainline sections between Breezewood and the Northeast Extension a relatively few times.

What really annoys me about the "totally reconstructed" sections of the Turnpike between Breezewood and the Ohio border is that it was not widened when it was "totally reconstructed."

On the Northeast Extension the PTC is widening (apparently) as far north as Quakertown (and it is needed).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mariethefoxy on August 21, 2015, 10:29:15 PM
Sorry if this is a stupid question that was answered before, but I couldn't find it on the PA Turnpike site. Is the EZPass discount on the PA Tpke only for Pennsylvania EZPasses or for any EzPass regardless of what state its from.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on August 21, 2015, 10:42:35 PM
Sorry if this is a stupid question that was answered before, but I couldn't find it on the PA Turnpike site. Is the EZPass discount on the PA Tpke only for Pennsylvania EZPasses or for any EzPass regardless of what state its from.

Everyone
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on August 21, 2015, 11:29:48 PM
I also noticed a large number of curve warning signs at 60 MPH -- perhaps 70 will be coming one day soon...

Possibly, but I would be more optimistic if some of the curves were posted at 65 MPH (as they are on the current 70 MPH section).

There are plenty of 65 curves in the 65.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 22, 2015, 07:47:00 AM
What really annoys me about the "totally reconstructed" sections of the Turnpike between Breezewood and the Ohio border is that it was not widened when it was "totally reconstructed."

It was reconstructed almost 20 years ago. The decision to widen the Turnpike to six lanes was made about 10 years ago, which is why you'll notice that a) everything reconstructed through 2005 remained four lanes, b) there was a lull in reconstruction during the mid-2000s, and c) everything reconstructed since 2008 has been widened to six lanes. It just means they'll eventually have to go back and widen the segments between New Stanton and the Laurel Summit (24 miles), and between Somerset and the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel (12 miles).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 22, 2015, 12:57:00 PM
What really annoys me about the "totally reconstructed" sections of the Turnpike between Breezewood and the Ohio border is that it was not widened when it was "totally reconstructed."

It was reconstructed almost 20 years ago. The decision to widen the Turnpike to six lanes was made about 10 years ago, which is why you'll notice that a) everything reconstructed through 2005 remained four lanes, b) there was a lull in reconstruction during the mid-2000s, and c) everything reconstructed since 2008 has been widened to six lanes. It just means they'll eventually have to go back and widen the segments between New Stanton and the Laurel Summit (24 miles), and between Somerset and the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel (12 miles).
I moved to CA before that work, did they at least grade for 6 lanes?  Did they rebuild the overhead bridges for 6 lanes?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 22, 2015, 06:43:47 PM
I also noticed a large number of curve warning signs at 60 MPH -- perhaps 70 will be coming one day soon...

Possibly, but I would be more optimistic if some of the curves were posted at 65 MPH (as they are on the current 70 MPH section).

There are plenty of 65 curves in the 65.

Yes, but 65 MPH curve signs were never posted until they were preparing to raise the speed limit on a section to 70.  Also wouldn't make a ton of sense to post advisory speeds equal to the speed limit (just the curve sign would suffice).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 22, 2015, 06:46:23 PM
What really annoys me about the "totally reconstructed" sections of the Turnpike between Breezewood and the Ohio border is that it was not widened when it was "totally reconstructed."

It was reconstructed almost 20 years ago. The decision to widen the Turnpike to six lanes was made about 10 years ago, which is why you'll notice that a) everything reconstructed through 2005 remained four lanes, b) there was a lull in reconstruction during the mid-2000s, and c) everything reconstructed since 2008 has been widened to six lanes. It just means they'll eventually have to go back and widen the segments between New Stanton and the Laurel Summit (24 miles), and between Somerset and the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel (12 miles).
I moved to CA before that work, did they at least grade for 6 lanes?  Did they rebuild the overhead bridges for 6 lanes?

Unfortunately not.  Case in point, this is east of Somerset

https://goo.gl/maps/7aKTs
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 24, 2015, 05:13:16 PM
Pretty much most of it from New Stanton to the Allegheny Tunnel was reconstructed without widening in mind (though eastbound has a nice long stretch ascending the Chestnut & Laurel Ridges to the Westmoreland / Somerset Co. line with 3 lanes in that direction).
The section they didn't get around to, from the Laurel Hill Tunnel bypass to near the Somerset interchange, is having bridges replaced now with 6-laning in mind. 
Not much has been reconstructed from the Bedford Co. line to Breezewood, though they are doing the overpass work with ones that will accommodate 6-laning near the county line (where the Church on the Turnpike is/was).
I can see a 4-lane bottleneck existing for decades to come where the Turnpike crosses US-30 near the Juniata River as well.  That looks to be a fairly new structure (when US-30 added the other river bridge) and is only designed for 4 lanes. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 25, 2015, 05:27:07 AM
I moved to CA before that work, did they at least grade for 6 lanes?  Did they rebuild the overhead bridges for 6 lanes?

Unfortunately, no. The good news is, there are only 22 overpasses on those two segments combined.

I can see a 4-lane bottleneck existing for decades to come where the Turnpike crosses US-30 near the Juniata River as well.  That looks to be a fairly new structure (when US-30 added the other river bridge) and is only designed for 4 lanes. 

I don't see it. Based on the way the underpass is constructed (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0143188,-78.4707865,3a,75y,54.29h,85.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCjZUOoNyroQYZfcQ30PZ0A!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), it should be relatively easy to extend the central pier and the retaining walls to widen the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 25, 2015, 01:40:48 PM
And the PTC has a 5 miles section around Everett on the radar screen for the 6 lane reconstruction starting 1Q 2017.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 25, 2015, 01:42:02 PM
I moved to CA before that work, did they at least grade for 6 lanes?  Did they rebuild the overhead bridges for 6 lanes?

Unfortunately, no. The good news is, there are only 22 overpasses on those two segments combined.

I can see a 4-lane bottleneck existing for decades to come where the Turnpike crosses US-30 near the Juniata River as well.  That looks to be a fairly new structure (when US-30 added the other river bridge) and is only designed for 4 lanes. 

I don't see it. Based on the way the underpass is constructed (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0143188,-78.4707865,3a,75y,54.29h,85.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCjZUOoNyroQYZfcQ30PZ0A!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), it should be relatively easy to extend the central pier and the retaining walls to widen the Turnpike.

22 Bridges, Sorry but hat almost sounds as sarcasm.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 25, 2015, 07:54:44 PM
And the PTC has a 5 miles section around Everett on the radar screen for the 6 lane reconstruction starting 1Q 2017.

Speaking of Everett, wonder it might actually get direct access to and egress from the Turnpike once all-electronic toll collection is phased-in?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 26, 2015, 01:40:00 AM
The Everett project page is up at the PTC website, IIRC MP 150-156, but there was nothing about additional access.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 26, 2015, 02:30:33 AM
And the PTC has a 5 miles section around Everett on the radar screen for the 6 lane reconstruction starting 1Q 2017.

Speaking of Everett, wonder it might actually get direct access to and egress from the Turnpike once all-electronic toll collection is phased-in?

That brings up an interesting question. From the ’50s through the ’80s in cities and towns across the country, land use and traffic patterns changed dramatically as Americans reacted to and took advantage of the mobility and access that newly constructed freeways enabled. But what would happen in a setting like Everett, where the PA Turnpike has sliced through town for three quarters of a century, yet the town has changed relatively little because of its lack of access to the highway?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2015, 06:16:33 AM
And the PTC has a 5 miles section around Everett on the radar screen for the 6 lane reconstruction starting 1Q 2017.

Speaking of Everett, wonder it might actually get direct access to and egress from the Turnpike once all-electronic toll collection is phased-in?

That brings up an interesting question. From the ’50s through the ’80s in cities and towns across the country, land use and traffic patterns changed dramatically as Americans reacted to and took advantage of the mobility and access that newly constructed freeways enabled. But what would happen in a setting like Everett, where the PA Turnpike has sliced through town for three quarters of a century, yet the town has changed relatively little because of its lack of access to the highway?

In today's world, the town and Turnpike would probably talk.  Many towns that like their rural nature probably wouldn't want an interchange. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on August 26, 2015, 03:35:31 PM
And the PTC has a 5 miles section around Everett on the radar screen for the 6 lane reconstruction starting 1Q 2017.

Speaking of Everett, wonder it might actually get direct access to and egress from the Turnpike once all-electronic toll collection is phased-in?

That brings up an interesting question. From the ’50s through the ’80s in cities and towns across the country, land use and traffic patterns changed dramatically as Americans reacted to and took advantage of the mobility and access that newly constructed freeways enabled. But what would happen in a setting like Everett, where the PA Turnpike has sliced through town for three quarters of a century, yet the town has changed relatively little because of its lack of access to the highway?

In today's world, the town and Turnpike would probably talk.  Many towns that like their rural nature probably wouldn't want an interchange.
At this point, the direct connection is useless. Just let it be, because the PTC, FHWA, PennDOT and other agencies let the gap go and later got used to it. Then the public did.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 26, 2015, 05:43:39 PM
Also, while there are some signals, US-30 is 4-lanes and not too bad heading either east to Breezewood, or west to Bedford.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 26, 2015, 06:20:20 PM
At this point, the direct connection is useless. Just let it be, because the PTC, FHWA, PennDOT and other agencies let the gap go and later got used to it. Then the public did.

Unlikely that the FHWA had anything to do with the siting decisions for this part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, since it did not exist when it was planned, engineered and built. 

But the Turnpike interchanges were limited in part because of the need to have expensive toll barriers, and attended toll collection, at each interchange, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 

That will not be a constraint once the transition to all-electronic tolling (AET) is made.  The Turnpike may well want more interchanges with AET to encourage more traffic to use the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on August 26, 2015, 07:00:21 PM
At this point, the direct connection is useless. Just let it be, because the PTC, FHWA, PennDOT and other agencies let the gap go and later got used to it. Then the public did.

Unlikely that the FHWA had anything to do with the siting decisions for this part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, since it did not exist when it was planned, engineered and built. 

But the Turnpike interchanges were limited in part because of the need to have expensive toll barriers, and attended toll collection, at each interchange, 24 hours a day, 7 days a well. 

That will not be a constraint once the transition to all-electronic tolling (AET) is made.  The Turnpike may well want more interchanges with AET to encourage more traffic to use the Turnpike.
Clearly a recipe for success (and greed)...the tolls are high already, why encourage people to use the Turnpike. Lower the tolls = more money and more traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on August 28, 2015, 04:29:22 PM
Last week my dad and I were on the widened part of the Northeast Extension for the first time, and I'm curious about all the unused shoulder (http://binged.it/1KgpBP0) in the SB-WB ramp at the Mid County Interchange. It's still like that even with that part of the widening finished. It seemed like it was built that way so that the ramp would be moved over to the edge to accommodate full six-lane widening up to the toll plaza, or at least the SB-EB loop, but that wasn't actually done.

Anyone have any idea what else it may have been intended for?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 28, 2015, 10:31:57 PM
Clearly a recipe for success (and greed)...the tolls are high already, why encourage people to use the Turnpike. Lower the tolls = more money and more traffic.

Because the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission has been on the hook since 2007 for billions of dollars in payments to PennDOT for things that have little or nothing to do with maintaining or operating or improving the Turnpike system.  Details here (https://www.paturnpike.com/business/act44_plan.aspx).  Most relevant parts of that page are quoted below [emphasis added]:

Quote
While the Commission’s payment obligation remains at $450 million annually through Fiscal Year 2022, none of the payments are dedicated to highways and bridges. Instead, all $450 million is allocated to support transit capital, operating, multi-modal and other non-highway programs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 30, 2015, 07:22:15 PM
I was on the Turnpike between Valley Forge and Willow Grove today and noticed another 65 MPH curve sign, this time east of Valley Forge (although there was only one, going westbound, and not a corresponding one in the other direction).  This would seem to indicate that they actually might raise the speed limit to 70 through the Philly area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2015, 12:03:24 AM
Just wondering...when the post advisory speeds, is there any requirement that they must be less than the posted speed limit, or can they post them because the 85th percentile speed is higher than the safe speed for the curve?

It's not common, but I have seen advisory speeds = speed limits previously, so it's not completely unheard of.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 31, 2015, 12:47:35 AM
The website for the MP 12-14/Beaver River Bridge now shows on the homepage renderings of the new Beaver River Bridge that is to start 1Q 2016.  It is similar in design to the Allegheny River Bridge as a balanced cantilever design.  I am curious to inuire among engineers here:

Does that design really result in longevity and maintenance savings?  It would seem with PTC's history of upkeep that this may be hard to maintain

Also, why is MP 10-12 being left out, just odd to skip such a short section
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on August 31, 2015, 10:36:27 AM
Last week my dad and I were on the widened part of the Northeast Extension for the first time, and I'm curious about all the unused shoulder (http://binged.it/1KgpBP0) in the SB-WB ramp at the Mid County Interchange. It's still like that even with that part of the widening finished. It seemed like it was built that way so that the ramp would be moved over to the edge to accommodate full six-lane widening up to the toll plaza, or at least the SB-EB loop, but that wasn't actually done.

Anyone have any idea what else it may have been intended for?
I noticed this when the section was first opened and am equally as curious.  Ideally, the Westbound I-276 traffic will have a full exit only lane(s) for the interchange and perhaps the geometry of the ramp will move a tad east, but the widening just north of the merge (West-I276 to North-I476) is VERY wide and fully paved.  You could easily park several 18 wheelers in that area if need be.  If anyone has a better grasp of why this looks the way it does, please fill us in.  I can only imagine it's for some kind of future widening of the bridges, a bit like the southbound-I476 far right side going into the interchange..
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on August 31, 2015, 10:51:16 AM
Looking at Historic Aerials (http://historicaerials.com?layer=1992&zoom=18&lat=40.11789569655976&lon=-75.27851343154907) from 1992 (shortly after Mid-County opened) it looks like it dates back to this period. It may simply be "right-of-way" control -- unfortunately there is a ~20 year gap between the images available, and in 1971 that space was trees, so it does not appear to be legacy geometry.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on August 31, 2015, 02:57:20 PM
I can easily recall the ROW from before the Blue-Route was completed into the interchange, and it is likely a result of the original routing.  However, what is odd is that the new widening project really rebuilt the excess right hand shoulder from scratch.  (I can't imagine it was for movements during construction either)
I'm not complaining, I guess it could store snowplows during a storm but it just looks weird.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on August 31, 2015, 06:39:19 PM
Just wondering...when the post advisory speeds, is there any requirement that they must be less than the posted speed limit, or can they post them because the 85th percentile speed is higher than the safe speed for the curve?

It's not common, but I have seen advisory speeds = speed limits previously, so it's not completely unheard of.
MUTCD says "at or lower than the posted speed."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 05, 2015, 04:52:51 PM
I know this had been proposed but I never knew they actually did it.  I looked towards the toll plaza at the Willow Hill interchange (between Harrisburg and Breezewood) and noticed they had the LED lane signs, with a design that looked like it had multiple lines of text and a background color different than for "Cash Only" or "E-ZPass".  I think I might have made out the word "credit" as well.  If I saw correctly, it looks like the PTC installed automated toll payment machines at at least one of the rural interchanges and may even take credit cards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 07, 2015, 08:02:48 PM
I know this had been proposed but I never knew they actually did it.  I looked towards the toll plaza at the Willow Hill interchange (between Harrisburg and Breezewood) and noticed they had the LED lane signs, with a design that looked like it had multiple lines of text and a background color different than for "Cash Only" or "E-ZPass".  I think I might have made out the word "credit" as well.  If I saw correctly, it looks like the PTC installed automated toll payment machines at at least one of the rural interchanges and may even take credit cards.

Found the answer.  Looks like this is a test site.  However, if AET becomes standard on the Turnpike, this will be the only instance where credit cards can be used to pay a Turnpike toll on-site.

http://www.publicopiniononline.com/local/ci_27838273/state-tests-turnpike-credit-card-machines
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on September 14, 2015, 01:20:12 PM
They had the WB Blue Mtn and Kittantny Mtn Tunnel closed. All traffic diverted to the EB tunnel

Edit:

Also, the valley forge service plaza is reopened.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2015/20150828085004.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on September 15, 2015, 01:05:10 PM
They had the WB Blue Mtn and Kittantny Mtn Tunnel closed. All traffic diverted to the EB tunnel
The last time that I was on that section of the turnpike, there was 2-way traffic in the EB tunnel.  This was back in October 2011.  Perhaps it was coincidental, or it might be annual inspection/maintenance in September and October, just guessing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on September 15, 2015, 08:16:05 PM
They had the WB Blue Mtn and Kittantny Mtn Tunnel closed. All traffic diverted to the EB tunnel
The last time that I was on that section of the turnpike, there was 2-way traffic in the EB tunnel.  This was back in October 2011.  Perhaps it was coincidental, or it might be annual inspection/maintenance in September and October, just guessing.

They had the blue paneling taken off above the tunnel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: RevZimmerman on September 28, 2015, 12:05:12 PM
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review has a brief article updating the PA Turnpike's pilot program experimenting with going cashless at two interchanges:
http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/8819413-74/toll-cashless-turnpike#axzz3n13p1wsH (http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/8819413-74/toll-cashless-turnpike#axzz3n13p1wsH)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: RevZimmerman on October 01, 2015, 12:28:53 PM
The PA Turnpike marks 75 years since it opened on OCT 1, 1940.

Harrisburg Patriot-News (pennlive.com) has a short article. There are some good pictures in its gallery:
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/10/the_pennsylvania_turnpike_open.html (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/10/the_pennsylvania_turnpike_open.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 01, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
Happy 75th PA Turnpike!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 01, 2015, 07:24:30 PM
America's first superhighway turns 75 years old today, and slowly but surely, segment by segment, it's being reconstructed as a modern superhighway once again. :cheers:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on October 02, 2015, 12:04:17 AM
Now I'm really feeling old.  I was working my college job marking up Triptiks at AAA when the Pike turned 50!!!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 02, 2015, 05:59:07 PM
America's first superhighway turns 75 years old today, and slowly but surely, segment by segment, it's being reconstructed as a modern superhighway once again. :cheers:

Not including Breezewood and the rest of the inadequate Turnpike interchanges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 13, 2015, 10:02:47 PM
A project has been added to the PTC website:  Ne Extension repaving from MP A94 to A122
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 14, 2015, 07:09:49 PM
A project has been added to the PTC website:  Ne Extension repaving from MP A94 to A122

Now they have projects for every letter from A through Z. :clap:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 14, 2015, 09:29:36 PM
A project has been added to the PTC website:  Ne Extension repaving from MP A94 to A122

Now they have projects for every letter from A through Z. :clap:

Except there is no webpage for the reconstruction between MP 99 and 102 (although that is almost complete).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 15, 2015, 01:01:10 AM
And they have yet to delete the PA 903 AET diamond interchange which is supposedly complete.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on October 15, 2015, 05:00:51 PM
And they have yet to delete the PA 903 AET diamond interchange which is supposedly complete.

...And, isn't MP 206-210 done, too?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on November 20, 2015, 02:52:46 PM
The PTC had an open house earlier this week for the reconstruction and widening of MP 298 to MP 302 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp298to312/public298.aspx). Apparently they had an open house for MP 308 to MP 312 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp298to312/public308.aspx) back in September, and the open house for MP 302 to MP 308 early in the new year. Here are preliminary designs for MP 298 to MP 302 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp298to312/library/open-house/298/Prelim-Plans.pdf), and MP 308 to MP 312 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp298to312/library/open-house/308/Prelim-Plans.pdf). Oddly, no new news on the planned reconstruction and widening from MP 320 to MP 326 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp320to326/). My guess is there are a bunch of community groups hemming and hawing over this project. Either way, expect plenty of reconstruction and widening of the Turnpike between Reading and King of Prussia late in the decade.

Elsewhere on the Turnpike, the new Swatara Creek Bridge (https://www.patpconstruction.com/swataracreekbridge/) is nearing completion near Harrisburg, and the reconstruction and widening of MP 242 to MP 245 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp242to245/) should be done about two and a half years from now. Reconstruction and widening also continues from MP 220 to MP 227 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp215to226/), and should be done about a year from now. Once all these projects wrap up, it'll leave only a short, three-mile segment (MP 247 to MP 250) untouched between Blue Mountain and Swatara Creek. There are no immediate plans for reconstruction and widening of the Turnpike between Swatara Creek and Reading.

In western Pennsylvania, construction of the new Beaver River Bridges (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp12to14/) and an accompanying Turnpike realignment/widening will begin in the next few months, and be completed within three years. Also to be completed within three years will be the reconstruction and widening of MP 40 to MP 48 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp40to48/) west of the Allegheny River Bridges. Replacement of two (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp28/) overpasses (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp28to31/album_wb400.aspx) near I-79 is either recently completed or imminent, and reconstruction of MP 28 to MP 31 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp28to31/) will be underway by the end of the decade. The big motherload will be a series of projects to reconstruct and widen MP 49 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp49to53/) to (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp53to57/) MP 67 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp57to67/), which are all in preliminary design right now, and will include at least a minor reconfiguration of the I-376 interchange in Monroeville. Reconstruction and widening should be underway by the end of the decade. There are no immediate plans for reconstruction and widening of the Turnpike between the Beaver River and I-79.

There also appears to be two random segments of the Turnpike east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel that are about to be reconstructed and widened soon: MP 124 to MP 134 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp124to134/schedule.aspx) east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel, and MP 149 to MP 155 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp149to155/home.html) between the Bedford and Breezewood interchanges. Both projects should be complete by the end of the decade. There's also MP 180 to MP 186 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp180to186/home.html), which is in preliminary design right now. As for the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel (https://www.patpconstruction.com/allegtunn/), the decision appears to have been delayed until next year, unfortunately.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on November 20, 2015, 03:10:35 PM
Of the bridges near 79, Thorn Hill Road is done and the PTC is moving on to Freedom Road.  A local news article out of Cranberry is that the PTC will not close the existing bridge while building the new Freedom Road overpass.  The new bridge is going to be like 5-6 lanes wide, it needed widening for traffic volume 30 years ago.  I am very surprised that any work on the mainline from Harrisburg East to Swatara is not on the radar, it is such a short section.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on November 20, 2015, 03:35:10 PM
Focus on the tunnels. Allegheny Mountain Tunnel is in pretty bad shape, but the PTC still says no about replacing a seventy-five year old tunnel. All of the tunnels need some facelifts, otherwise they risk collapse. Plus, here's a bypass I found.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/allegheny+mountain+tunnel/@39.9495624,-78.876308,6182m/data=!3m1!1e3

So to the south is PA 31. the land is all clear, and I'd say that a total of four lanes can be crammed through there. It'll just dip south west of Huckleberry Highway to the left of the photo and return to the alignment when PA 31 parallels I-76 for a couple of miles to the east (to the right, but you have to pan right/zoom out to see).

https://www.google.com/maps/search/allegheny+mountain+tunnel/@40.0426507,-78.812124,8219m/data=!3m1!1e3

Here's the northern route. I-76 could use the US 219 freeway to the west and then jump on a concurrency on US 30 between Stoystown and PA 96. It'd then dip south to where I-76 parallels PA 31 to return to its alignment.

-----------------------------------------------------
Here's another problem.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/allegheny+mountain+tunnel/@40.2288974,-77.145311,1476m/data=!3m1!1e3

I-76 crosses I-81, but there's no interchange. Rather than having to deal with a mile of US 11, surely PTC could try and cram some long ramps into the interchange. The only problem here is that building to the south on Claremont Road, but other than that it's all clear.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on November 20, 2015, 09:03:14 PM
So to the south is PA 31. the land is all clear, and I'd say that a four lane interstate can be crammed through there. It'll just dip south west of Huckleberry Highway to the left of the photo and return to the alignment when PA 31 parallels I-76 for a couple of miles to the east (to the right, but you have to pan right/zoom out to see).

If they reroute it in any direction from the current tunnels, it will be 3 lanes each direction (6 total) at a minimum.  No way they would only have 4 lanes (2 each way) since they are widening all new reconstruction areas to 3 lanes each way.  They might add an extra 4 lane for truck climbing, but who knows.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on November 20, 2015, 10:13:07 PM
So to the south is PA 31. the land is all clear, and I'd say that a four lane interstate can be crammed through there. It'll just dip south west of Huckleberry Highway to the left of the photo and return to the alignment when PA 31 parallels I-76 for a couple of miles to the east (to the right, but you have to pan right/zoom out to see).

If they reroute it in any direction from the current tunnels, it will be 3 lanes each direction (6 total) at a minimum.  No way they would only have 4 lanes (2 each way) since they are widening all new reconstruction areas to 3 lanes each way.  They might add an extra 4 lane for truck climbing, but who knows.
I forgot to specify 4 total lanes. Oops. There could be a 3rd lane for a truck climbing lane, but the tunnels are high traffic, if it's possible they can cram it through with three lanes each way with a 4th for climbing/shoulder.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on November 20, 2015, 10:25:07 PM
At this point, I see the PTC just cutting the corner by either doing a cut or building new tunnels on a straight-line alignment with the current western approach. This would bypass the sharp curve immediately east of the tunnels and shorten the next curve east.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on November 20, 2015, 10:49:43 PM
I seem to recall reading in Dan Cupper’s book that the Turnpike’s never executed dual-dual plan would have kept the truck carriageways on the easier grades through the tunnels while car lanes would climb around them on bypass alignments. I wonder if this has been or could be considered as an option for Allegheny Mountain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on November 21, 2015, 02:08:44 PM
I seem to recall reading in Dan Cupper’s book that the Turnpike’s never executed dual-dual plan would have kept the truck carriageways on the easier grades through the tunnels while car lanes would climb around them on bypass alignments. I wonder if this has been or could be considered as an option for Allegheny Mountain.
My recollection of one of the issues they're trying to solve with the current alignment is that trucks with hazardous cargo can't go thru the tunnels, so need to exit and re-enter the Turnpike. Putting only trucks to the old tunnels is an interesting idea, but ignores this problem.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2015, 07:05:34 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is holding an "Online Public Meeting" at 7 PM on December 8, 2015 to discuss the new cashless tolling that will be implemented on the westbound side of the East-West Mainline (I-276 now, future I-95) just into Pennsylvania after crossing the Turnpike Bridge over the Delaware River from New Jersey.

Details (including online registration) here: https://www.webcaster4.com/Webcast/Page/1296/11515
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on November 26, 2015, 11:57:06 AM
A blog post I did this morning that is  based off of some aerial photos of the Breezewood Interchange in 1958 and 1967.  It covers the early evolution - from what I gathered in my brief research for the post - the most disliked interchange in the country.

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2015/11/aerial-photos-of-breezewood-1958-and.html

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on December 08, 2015, 12:31:51 PM
NJ.com - Cashless Tolls coming to Pennsylvania Turnpike at NJ Crossing
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2015/12/cashless_tolls_coming_to_pa_turnpike_at_nj_crossin.html#incart_most_shared-mercer
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 08, 2015, 01:53:37 PM
NJ.com - Cashless Tolls coming to Pennsylvania Turnpike at NJ Crossing
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2015/12/cashless_tolls_coming_to_pa_turnpike_at_nj_crossin.html#incart_most_shared-mercer

There was a story in the Bucks County Courier Times last week.  A (normally clueless to begin with) co-worker was asking me about it, and thought the entire PA Turnpike was going cashless.  Then she didn't understand the whole I-95 thing being routed onto the Turnpike.

Personally, I'm thinking they're going to be having a pretty big fail rate on getting those license-plate tolling invoices paid.  They'll be dealing with a whole bunch of people that have paid tolls in NY, NJ, PA, OH, DE and/or MD (depending on their direction of travel), while bitching that they don't have to pay tolls in the rest of the country, and won't understand why they are being sent a ticket to pay another toll that they had to pay because they paid $50 in tolls already.

Yes, much of what I said isn't accurate.  But that's how those other drivers are going to see it though.  When the rest of the northeast switches to cashless tolling it'll make things a bit easier, but for now there's going to be a not of non-paying drivers continue to not pay when they get that bill.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MrDisco99 on December 08, 2015, 02:47:12 PM
Would be great if, when tolls go cashless throughout, E-Z Pass could consolidate billing for the various agencies and send a unified bill.  There's so much that current technology can do to get rid of inefficiencies if only the state agencies would allow it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 29, 2015, 08:04:22 PM
I was doing some digging on the PA Turnpike website this week.  A previously announced toll increase (I believe it is 6%) takes effect Sunday morning, at the same time AET is implemented at the Delaware River Bridge.

What is not noted, however, is that the toll rises significantly for westbound motorists who use the bridge (and might be comparable to eastbound motorists entering from Ohio).  For example, the toll from the bridge to Valley Forge will more than double from just over $4 currently to over $9 on Sunday ($5 bridge toll + Turnpike toll from new mainline plaza).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 30, 2015, 12:00:47 AM
I was doing some digging on the PA Turnpike website this week.  A previously announced toll increase (I believe it is 6%) takes effect Sunday morning, at the same time AET is implemented at the Delaware River Bridge.

What is not noted, however, is that the toll rises significantly for westbound motorists who use the bridge (and might be comparable to eastbound motorists entering from Ohio).  For example, the toll from the bridge to Valley Forge will more than double from just over $4 currently to over $9 on Sunday ($5 bridge toll + Turnpike toll from new mainline plaza).
Yup, the bridge is one-way tolled to be parallel to the other Delaware River bridges below it. That folds into the Tpk. toll for the stretch east of I-95.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on December 30, 2015, 12:13:24 AM
I was doing some digging on the PA Turnpike website this week.  A previously announced toll increase (I believe it is 6%) takes effect Sunday morning, at the same time AET is implemented at the Delaware River Bridge.

What is not noted, however, is that the toll rises significantly for westbound motorists who use the bridge (and might be comparable to eastbound motorists entering from Ohio).  For example, the toll from the bridge to Valley Forge will more than double from just over $4 currently to over $9 on Sunday ($5 bridge toll + Turnpike toll from new mainline plaza).
Yup, the bridge is one-way tolled to be parallel to the other Delaware River bridges below it. That folds into the Tpk. toll for the stretch east of I-95.

As it should be. Makes no sense to have a bridge charging for the free direction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 30, 2015, 06:37:16 AM
Would be great if, when tolls go cashless throughout, E-Z Pass could consolidate billing for the various agencies and send a unified bill.  There's so much that current technology can do to get rid of inefficiencies if only the state agencies would allow it.

I'm not sure I understand this question.  Currently, statements are already consolidated.  I have an NJ EZ Pass.  Regardless of what toll plaza I go thru in any state, it shows up on that one statement.  I don't get 6 statements from 6 different states!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on December 30, 2015, 12:11:31 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 30, 2015, 12:59:06 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.
Depending on location; US 30 isn't always a freeway and, hence, isn't always the best toll-free alternative.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 30, 2015, 01:02:26 PM
Would be great if, when tolls go cashless throughout, E-Z Pass could consolidate billing for the various agencies and send a unified bill.  There's so much that current technology can do to get rid of inefficiencies if only the state agencies would allow it.

I'm not sure I understand this question.  Currently, statements are already consolidated.  I have an NJ EZ Pass.  Regardless of what toll plaza I go thru in any state, it shows up on that one statement.  I don't get 6 statements from 6 different states!

I believe he meant the bill for toll by plate, not transponder tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 30, 2015, 03:17:20 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Or I-81 to I-70 and I-68 and US 40.  One of my apps said it only adds 45 minutes and 30 miles.  With today's gas prices, the time might be worth it for some people.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 30, 2015, 06:06:36 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Or I-81 to I-70 and I-68 and US 40.  One of my apps said it only adds 45 minutes and 30 miles.  With today's gas prices, the time might be worth it for some people.

Some of my last trips from Norfolk to Pittsburgh around 1995, I began to go 68 to 40(brownsville) to 43 to 70 to 79.  It took the same amount of time with no tolls and NO (what was then) an overcrowded turnpike from Breezewood to Butler Valley.  I was soooo much less stressed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on December 30, 2015, 11:23:43 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Convince your parents to elect new people and do the same when you're old enough. A lot of what's causing the high toll rates is Act 44. The tolls are funding PennDOT projects.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Pete from Boston on December 30, 2015, 11:35:46 PM

Would be great if, when tolls go cashless throughout, E-Z Pass could consolidate billing for the various agencies and send a unified bill.  There's so much that current technology can do to get rid of inefficiencies if only the state agencies would allow it.

Do you have an E-ZPass where this is not the case?  What you were describing is like getting a separate bill from every store at which you use your credit card.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on December 31, 2015, 12:01:21 AM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Or I-81 to I-70 and I-68 and US 40.  One of my apps said it only adds 45 minutes and 30 miles.  With today's gas prices, the time might be worth it for some people.

Some of my last trips from Norfolk to Pittsburgh around 1995, I began to go 68 to 40(brownsville) to 43 to 70 to 79.  It took the same amount of time with no tolls and NO (what was then) an overcrowded turnpike from Breezewood to Butler Valley.  I was soooo much less stressed.

Wasn't there a toll plaza on 43 just before I-70?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 31, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Or I-81 to I-70 and I-68 and US 40.  One of my apps said it only adds 45 minutes and 30 miles.  With today's gas prices, the time might be worth it for some people.

Some of my last trips from Norfolk to Pittsburgh around 1995, I began to go 68 to 40(brownsville) to 43 to 70 to 79.  It took the same amount of time with no tolls and NO (what was then) an overcrowded turnpike from Breezewood to Butler Valley.  I was soooo much less stressed.

Wasn't there a toll plaza on 43 just before I-70?

There is one just south of I-70, yes - here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/California,+PA/@40.1009136,-79.9145203,783m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x88351ad0d8ca8ea5:0x7337ce4fd3b1bb96!6m1!1e1).

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 31, 2015, 05:22:53 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Or I-81 to I-70 and I-68 and US 40.  One of my apps said it only adds 45 minutes and 30 miles.  With today's gas prices, the time might be worth it for some people.

Of course, it all depends where you're going.  For me, US 30 is still gonna cost $5 to cross the Delaware!

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on December 31, 2015, 09:47:26 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Or I-81 to I-70 and I-68 and US 40.  One of my apps said it only adds 45 minutes and 30 miles.  With today's gas prices, the time might be worth it for some people.

Some of my last trips from Norfolk to Pittsburgh around 1995, I began to go 68 to 40(brownsville) to 43 to 70 to 79.  It took the same amount of time with no tolls and NO (what was then) an overcrowded turnpike from Breezewood to Butler Valley.  I was soooo much less stressed.

Wasn't there a toll plaza on 43 just before I-70?

There is one just south of I-70, yes - here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/California,+PA/@40.1009136,-79.9145203,783m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x88351ad0d8ca8ea5:0x7337ce4fd3b1bb96!6m1!1e1).

I know there's one there right now, but what he said was that he didn't have to pay any 'tolls'.  If that plaza was there, and he stayed on 43 to I-70, then he would have still had to pay at least that toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 31, 2015, 11:52:27 PM
Yes, I had forgot about that booth, what was it like 50 cents or something.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 02, 2016, 02:28:14 PM
Looks like the eastbound toll booths at the new toll plaza in Bensalem will be mixed mode (the first ones I can recall at a major plaza on the ticketed portion of the Turnpike), meaning that E-ZPass customers can use any open toll lane (in addition to the Express lanes).  Normally, the cash exit lanes can't accept E-ZPass.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 02, 2016, 06:40:52 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Convince your parents to elect new people and do the same when you're old enough. A lot of what's causing the high toll rates is Act 44. The tolls are funding PennDOT projects.

Not just PennDOT projects - but non-highway projects having nothing to do with the Turnpike, and wages and benefits paid to transit employees. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 02, 2016, 06:44:30 PM
At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Convince your parents to elect new people and do the same when you're old enough. A lot of what's causing the high toll rates is Act 44. The tolls are funding PennDOT projects.

Not just PennDOT projects - but non-highway projects having nothing to do with the Turnpike, and wages and benefits paid to transit employees. 

At this point, they're gonna nickel and dime us to death. They don't realize we can just use US 30.

Convince your parents to elect new people and do the same when you're old enough. A lot of what's causing the high toll rates is Act 44. The tolls are funding PennDOT projects.

However...the PA Turnpike is funding non-PA Turnpike projects. 

If someone rarely or ever drives the PA Turnpike, they get the benefit of those that do as their local roads may be fixed - not by using tax dollars, but because others drove the Turnpike.

So explain again why someone should vote those politicians out of office?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 03, 2016, 07:08:37 PM
So explain again why someone should vote those politicians out of office?

Tolls paid by toll road patrons should be used to maintain and upgrade that toll road system along with (maybe) nearby related projects on "free" roads. 

Toll crossings and especially toll cordons in dense urban places that divert money to transit do not bother me nearly as much.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 03, 2016, 08:27:54 PM
So explain again why someone should vote those politicians out of office?

Tolls paid by toll road patrons should be used to maintain and upgrade that toll road system along with (maybe) nearby related projects on "free" roads. 

Toll crossings and especially toll cordons in dense urban that divert money to transit does not bother me nearly as much.

Because it goes to stuff on the other side of the state that has nothing to do with the Turnpike. I don't mind urban tolls supporting transit, either. I don't mind tolls supporting a major project elsewhere in the system (such as Tappan Zee, Grand Island and the upcoming Cheektowaga/West Seneca projects in New York). It's sending it to stuff that doesn't necessarily benefit anybody on the Turnpike system. That is where the problem comes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 03, 2016, 10:02:23 PM
But you're not getting the point. If taxes were raised that money could still be going elsewhere throughout the state.

Someone living in PA may not normally take the Turnpike. Higher tolls where the money funds local projects allows them to benefit from everyone else driving the Turnpike.

If a politician were to say: I'm going to fix your roads. Do you want me to raise your gas taxes causing you to pay more every time you fill up your tank, or raise the tolls on a road you never drive which won't cost you a penny more, which option do you think many will choose?

I'm not saying it's right or fair. I'm saying: A taxpayer, if given an option, will often take the one that benefits them the most. That's why it would be silly for a taxpayer to vote out a politician that found an alternate source of funding that didn't raise their taxes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on January 05, 2016, 06:25:06 PM
Worthy of mention. Looks like the PA Turnpike is increasing the tolls by 6% already (toll hike occurred on the 3rd). It normally would be $1.70, now it is $1.80. Not even EZPass can save you at this point, but it's a fair cushion. Act 89 really seems to be angering people in PA. Maybe this governor is trash?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on January 05, 2016, 07:59:00 PM
Worthy of mention. Looks like the PA Turnpike is increasing the tolls by 6% again, on Sunday the 10th.

*Another* 6% hike seven days after the last one on Jan. 3? 

http://www.wgal.com/news/pa-turnpike-toll-increase-is-now-in-effect/37243100

Now granted the PTC is increasing tolls annually for the next 29 years per http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/07/how_much_pa_turnpike_commissio.html but...

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on January 05, 2016, 08:10:00 PM
Worthy of mention. Looks like the PA Turnpike is increasing the tolls by 6% again, on Sunday the 10th. It normally would be $1.70, now it is $1.80. Not even EZPass can save you at this point, but it's a fair cushion. Act 89 really seems to be angering people in PA. Maybe this governor is trash?

Act 89 was passed under the previous administration and it reduced the toll increases that would have happened if Act 44 had been left untouched. Not sure why you'd blame Governor Wolf for this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on January 05, 2016, 08:11:07 PM
But you're not getting the point. If taxes were raised that money could still be going elsewhere throughout the state.

Someone living in PA may not normally take the Turnpike. Higher tolls where the money funds local projects allows them to benefit from everyone else driving the Turnpike.

If a politician were to say: I'm going to fix your roads. Do you want me to raise your gas taxes causing you to pay more every time you fill up your tank, or raise the tolls on a road you never drive which won't cost you a penny more, which option do you think many will choose?

I'm not saying it's right or fair. I'm saying: A taxpayer, if given an option, will often take the one that benefits them the most. That's why it would be silly for a taxpayer to vote out a politician that found an alternate source of funding that didn't raise their taxes.

WV is basically looking to do the same thing as PA did with Act 44. There's been talk of having the West Virginia Parkways Authority float a large bond to pay for WVDOH projects and increase WV Turnpike tolls to pay for it. The majority of Turnpike users are from out-of-state, so it mostly bite them rather than WV residents.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on January 05, 2016, 10:33:04 PM
But you're not getting the point. If taxes were raised that money could still be going elsewhere throughout the state.

Someone living in PA may not normally take the Turnpike. Higher tolls where the money funds local projects allows them to benefit from everyone else driving the Turnpike.

If a politician were to say: I'm going to fix your roads. Do you want me to raise your gas taxes causing you to pay more every time you fill up your tank, or raise the tolls on a road you never drive which won't cost you a penny more, which option do you think many will choose?

I'm not saying it's right or fair. I'm saying: A taxpayer, if given an option, will often take the one that benefits them the most. That's why it would be silly for a taxpayer to vote out a politician that found an alternate source of funding that didn't raise their taxes.

WV is basically looking to do the same thing as PA did with Act 44. There's been talk of having the West Virginia Parkways Authority float a large bond to pay for WVDOH projects and increase WV Turnpike tolls to pay for it. The majority of Turnpike users are from out-of-state, so it mostly bite them rather than WV residents.

Not to mention that there are 3 Toll Barriers on the mainline, but no tollbooths at any of the exits, except for US-19 North in Beckley.  Most "locals" don't pay to use the WV Turnpike at all because they know where they have to get on or off to avoid the tolls.  The only people who pay the tolls are, as was previously mentioned, the "out-of-towners" and those locals that will pay to "bypass" the free roads/slower traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on January 06, 2016, 03:16:52 PM
Worthy of mention. Looks like the PA Turnpike is increasing the tolls by 6% again, on Sunday the 10th.

*Another* 6% hike seven days after the last one on Jan. 3? 

http://www.wgal.com/news/pa-turnpike-toll-increase-is-now-in-effect/37243100
ixnay
Typo. I edited my post.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on January 06, 2016, 03:57:15 PM
Act 89 really seems to be angering people in PA. Maybe this governor is trash?

Act 89 was passed under the previous administration and it reduced the toll increases that would have happened if Act 44 had been left untouched. Not sure why you'd blame Governor Wolf for this.
Correct

So, in a nutshell:

Act 89 was signed into law by Gov. Corbett (and many believe that's why he was shown the door in the 2014 elections).

Act 44 was signed into law by Gov. Rendell.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on January 06, 2016, 05:33:51 PM

Act 89 was signed into law by Gov. Corbett (and many believe that's why he was shown the door in the 2014 elections).


This is news to me. Can't say I recall hearing anything about it in the campaign. I recall the main issues being that he refused to tax natural gas extraction and that he wouldn't increase education spending. That said, Act 89 is one of the reasons I (albeit very unenthusiasticly) voted for Mr. Corbet over Mr. Wolf. They're both losers though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 06, 2016, 07:18:58 PM
Worthy of mention. Looks like the PA Turnpike is increasing the tolls by 6% again, on Sunday the 10th. It normally would be $1.70, now it is $1.80. Not even EZPass can save you at this point, but it's a fair cushion. Act 89 really seems to be angering people in PA. Maybe this governor is trash?

Act 89 was passed under the previous administration and it reduced the toll increases that would have happened if Act 44 had been left untouched. Not sure why you'd blame Governor Wolf for this.
11 year olds and politics do not mix.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: TravelingBethelite on January 06, 2016, 07:56:05 PM

Act 89 was signed into law by Gov. Corbett (and many believe that's why he was shown the door in the 2014 elections).


This is news to me. Can't say I recall hearing anything about it in the campaign. I recall the main issues being that he refused to tax natural gas extraction and that he wouldn't increase education spending. That said, Act 89 is one of the reasons I (albeit very unenthusiasticly) voted for Mr. Corbet over Mr. Wolf. They're both losers though.

You can vote?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on January 06, 2016, 08:02:40 PM
Worthy of mention. Looks like the PA Turnpike is increasing the tolls by 6% again, on Sunday the 10th. It normally would be $1.70, now it is $1.80. Not even EZPass can save you at this point, but it's a fair cushion. Act 89 really seems to be angering people in PA. Maybe this governor is trash?

Act 89 was passed under the previous administration and it reduced the toll increases that would have happened if Act 44 had been left untouched. Not sure why you'd blame Governor Wolf for this.
11 year olds and politics do not mix.

Agreed; it's too similar to adults and politics, and we've got quite enough of that already.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 06, 2016, 09:15:30 PM
But you're not getting the point. If taxes were raised that money could still be going elsewhere throughout the state.

Someone living in PA may not normally take the Turnpike. Higher tolls where the money funds local projects allows them to benefit from everyone else driving the Turnpike.

If a politician were to say: I'm going to fix your roads. Do you want me to raise your gas taxes causing you to pay more every time you fill up your tank, or raise the tolls on a road you never drive which won't cost you a penny more, which option do you think many will choose?

I'm not saying it's right or fair. I'm saying: A taxpayer, if given an option, will often take the one that benefits them the most. That's why it would be silly for a taxpayer to vote out a politician that found an alternate source of funding that didn't raise their taxes.

WV is basically looking to do the same thing as PA did with Act 44. There's been talk of having the West Virginia Parkways Authority float a large bond to pay for WVDOH projects and increase WV Turnpike tolls to pay for it. The majority of Turnpike users are from out-of-state, so it mostly bite them rather than WV residents.

Not to mention that there are 3 Toll Barriers on the mainline, but no tollbooths at any of the exits, except for US-19 North in Beckley.  Most "locals" don't pay to use the WV Turnpike at all because they know where they have to get on or off to avoid the tolls.  The only people who pay the tolls are, as was previously mentioned, the "out-of-towners" and those locals that will pay to "bypass" the free roads/slower traffic.

And if you have a WV E-ZPass, you don't pay in Beckley. The northernmost 2 booths are quite easy to get around-there's a parallel road. The southern one is a bit trickier because you have to get over to US 19. Still, the booths take 5, 10, and 15 minutes to avoid (going from north to south).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on January 07, 2016, 04:30:15 PM

Act 89 was signed into law by Gov. Corbett (and many believe that's why he was shown the door in the 2014 elections).


This is news to me. Can't say I recall hearing anything about it in the campaign. I recall the main issues being that he refused to tax natural gas extraction and that he wouldn't increase education spending. That said, Act 89 is one of the reasons I (albeit very unenthusiasticly) voted for Mr. Corbet over Mr. Wolf. They're both losers though.
A few Wolf ads. (not 100% sure if such was directly from the Wolf campaign or an independent group that supported Wolf) that aired in southeastern PA pointed out that Corbett raised taxes (via Act 89) and, hence, renegged on his 2010 campaign promise not to raise taxes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on January 07, 2016, 06:32:28 PM

Act 89 was signed into law by Gov. Corbett (and many believe that's why he was shown the door in the 2014 elections).


This is news to me. Can't say I recall hearing anything about it in the campaign. I recall the main issues being that he refused to tax natural gas extraction and that he wouldn't increase education spending. That said, Act 89 is one of the reasons I (albeit very unenthusiasticly) voted for Mr. Corbet over Mr. Wolf. They're both losers though.

You can vote?

Are you possibly confusing me with someone else?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 24, 2016, 07:49:21 PM
Surprised nobody commented about the major bottleneck going up to the Allegheny Tunnel during this weekend's snow storm.  Hundreds of vehicles, including buses with students & college athletes, were stranded for nearly 24 hours.

Not sure why the PTC is reviewing the incident (seems like a bureaucratic answer).  A combination of a construction-narrowed mountain climb and lack of turnarounds are the major issues.

http://mobile.philly.com/beta?wss=/philly/news&id=366365931
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on January 24, 2016, 09:07:43 PM
But you're not getting the point. If taxes were raised that money could still be going elsewhere throughout the state.

Someone living in PA may not normally take the Turnpike. Higher tolls where the money funds local projects allows them to benefit from everyone else driving the Turnpike.

If a politician were to say: I'm going to fix your roads. Do you want me to raise your gas taxes causing you to pay more every time you fill up your tank, or raise the tolls on a road you never drive which won't cost you a penny more, which option do you think many will choose?

I'm not saying it's right or fair. I'm saying: A taxpayer, if given an option, will often take the one that benefits them the most. That's why it would be silly for a taxpayer to vote out a politician that found an alternate source of funding that didn't raise their taxes.

Exactly.  It's the same as a municipality enacting taxes on hotel occupancy and car rentals.  It's all about getting someone else to pay for what we want.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 25, 2016, 07:00:00 AM
Surprised nobody commented about the major bottleneck going up to the Allegheny Tunnel during this weekend's snow storm.  Hundreds of vehicles, including buses with students & college athletes, were stranded for nearly 24 hours.

Not sure why the PTC is reviewing the incident (seems like a bureaucratic answer).  A combination of a construction-narrowed mountain climb and lack of turnarounds are the major issues.

http://mobile.philly.com/beta?wss=/philly/news&id=366365931

This might be interesting to watch...this article states that the PTC "would investigate whether the tractor-trailers should have been on the Turnpike in the first place."  A different article had another quote about the potential of banning trucks in the left lane during weather events.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on January 25, 2016, 08:12:29 AM
this article states that the PTC "would investigate whether the tractor-trailers should have been on the Turnpike in the first place."  A different article had another quote about the potential of banning trucks in the left lane during weather events.
I believe the "banning" had to do with empty trailers which were subject to the crosswinds.  I'm not sure how exactly you advertise that to traffic already on the road subject to white-out conditions, if it's not already a rule.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: dgolub on January 25, 2016, 08:55:29 AM
Worthy of mention. Looks like the PA Turnpike is increasing the tolls by 6% again, on Sunday the 10th. It normally would be $1.70, now it is $1.80. Not even EZPass can save you at this point, but it's a fair cushion. Act 89 really seems to be angering people in PA. Maybe this governor is trash?

Act 89 was passed under the previous administration and it reduced the toll increases that would have happened if Act 44 had been left untouched. Not sure why you'd blame Governor Wolf for this.
11 year olds and politics do not mix.

Agreed; it's too similar to adults and politics, and we've got quite enough of that already.

Yeah, just look at some of the surveys on how many Americans think that Judge Judy is on the Supreme Court and that sort of stuff.  I dare say that there are 11 year olds who are more informed would-be voters than plenty of the adults who are eligible to vote.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 25, 2016, 09:21:06 AM
Surprised nobody commented about the major bottleneck going up to the Allegheny Tunnel during this weekend's snow storm.  Hundreds of vehicles, including buses with students & college athletes, were stranded for nearly 24 hours.

Not sure why the PTC is reviewing the incident (seems like a bureaucratic answer).  A combination of a construction-narrowed mountain climb and lack of turnarounds are the major issues.

http://mobile.philly.com/beta?wss=/philly/news&id=366365931

This might be interesting to watch...this article states that the PTC "would investigate whether the tractor-trailers should have been on the Turnpike in the first place."  A different article had another quote about the potential of banning trucks in the left lane during weather events.


It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 25, 2016, 10:28:47 AM
Surprised nobody commented about the major bottleneck going up to the Allegheny Tunnel during this weekend's snow storm.  Hundreds of vehicles, including buses with students & college athletes, were stranded for nearly 24 hours.

Not sure why the PTC is reviewing the incident (seems like a bureaucratic answer).  A combination of a construction-narrowed mountain climb and lack of turnarounds are the major issues.

http://mobile.philly.com/beta?wss=/philly/news&id=366365931

This might be interesting to watch...this article states that the PTC "would investigate whether the tractor-trailers should have been on the Turnpike in the first place."  A different article had another quote about the potential of banning trucks in the left lane during weather events.


It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Hmmm...sounds like NYSTA. At least PA's governor didn't blame motorists for the issues unlike Cuomo, who blamed motorists for NYSTA's issues in Buffalo last winter.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 25, 2016, 11:11:46 AM
Surprised nobody commented about the major bottleneck going up to the Allegheny Tunnel during this weekend's snow storm.  Hundreds of vehicles, including buses with students & college athletes, were stranded for nearly 24 hours.

Not sure why the PTC is reviewing the incident (seems like a bureaucratic answer).  A combination of a construction-narrowed mountain climb and lack of turnarounds are the major issues.

http://mobile.philly.com/beta?wss=/philly/news&id=366365931

This might be interesting to watch...this article states that the PTC "would investigate whether the tractor-trailers should have been on the Turnpike in the first place."  A different article had another quote about the potential of banning trucks in the left lane during weather events.


Actually, an article I read today said construction limited trucks to the left lane.  There were two trucks side by side (illegally) who then collided somehow, causing the backup behind them.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/01/24/Turnpike-remains-closed-but-officials-hope-to-have-it-reopened-today/stories/201601240204
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on January 25, 2016, 07:33:30 PM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 25, 2016, 09:49:16 PM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

How does that matter?  With (or without) the tunnel, the Turnpike traffic still has to ascend the grade to get through (or past) the crest of Allegheny Mountain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on January 25, 2016, 11:30:46 PM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

How does that matter?  With (or without) the tunnel, the Turnpike traffic still has to ascend the grade to get through (or past) the crest of Allegheny Mountain.

Understood, but I'm stating that the PTC wants to can the tunnels or add a 3rd. Just noting that this accident could be seen as more ammo.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 26, 2016, 06:30:51 AM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

How does that matter?  With (or without) the tunnel, the Turnpike traffic still has to ascend the grade to get through (or past) the crest of Allegheny Mountain.

Understood, but I'm stating that the PTC wants to can the tunnels or add a 3rd. Just noting that this accident could be seen as more ammo.

The issue is going to come down to regarding whether trucks should be on the Turnpike at all during a snowstorm.  I still don't see how this relates to a new tunnel or tunnel bypass whatsoever.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 26, 2016, 03:12:39 PM
The issue is going to come down to regarding whether trucks should be on the Turnpike at all during a snowstorm.  I still don't see how this relates to a new tunnel or tunnel bypass whatsoever.

I agree.  One thing that Colorado does (at least on I-70) is to mandate that trucks have chains on-board and ready for use if they are headed between Denver and Grand Junction during the snow season (which is long there (October to May) thanks to the high elevations).

It might not be a bad idea for states to impose similar requirements on mountainous Interstates in the East, including the mountain parts of the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Carlisle to Cranberry and the Northeast Extension north of Exit 56 {Lehigh Valley), "Free" I-70 east of Breezewood, I-68, I-64, I-77, I-26, I-81 north of Harrisburg and I-40 (and probably others).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on January 26, 2016, 04:59:41 PM
The issue is going to come down to regarding whether trucks should be on the Turnpike at all during a snowstorm.  I still don't see how this relates to a new tunnel or tunnel bypass whatsoever.

I agree.  One thing that Colorado does (at least on I-70) is to mandate that trucks have chains on-board and ready for use if they are headed between Denver and Grand Junction during the snow season (which is long there (October to May) thanks to the high elevations).

It might not be a bad idea for states to impose similar requirements on mountainous Interstates in the East, including the mountain parts of the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Carlisle to Cranberry and the Northeast Extension north of Exit 56 {Lehigh Valley), "Free" I-70 east of Breezewood, I-68, I-64, I-77, I-26, I-81 north of Harrisburg and I-40 (and probably others).

Most chain laws have them on roads where if you get stuck, nobody will be able to get to you for hours on end. Oregon's law is "chains will only be used to get you to the nearest safe haven" basically not to be driven on for more than is required.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 26, 2016, 05:06:20 PM
The issue is going to come down to regarding whether trucks should be on the Turnpike at all during a snowstorm.  I still don't see how this relates to a new tunnel or tunnel bypass whatsoever.

I agree.  One thing that Colorado does (at least on I-70) is to mandate that trucks have chains on-board and ready for use if they are headed between Denver and Grand Junction during the snow season (which is long there (October to May) thanks to the high elevations).

It might not be a bad idea for states to impose similar requirements on mountainous Interstates in the East, including the mountain parts of the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Carlisle to Cranberry and the Northeast Extension north of Exit 56 {Lehigh Valley), "Free" I-70 east of Breezewood, I-68, I-64, I-77, I-26, I-81 north of Harrisburg and I-40 (and probably others).

Vermont has a similar requirement along VT 9 with chain-up areas. I couldn't imagine going through there in the snow. Bad enough when it's dry out.

I-87 would probably benefit from such a requirement in the Adirondacks. The NB downgrade north of Exit 31 has seen some horrendous winter accidents and cell service is spotty at best. It's one of the locations in New York that should probably have runaway truck ramps but doesn't.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on January 26, 2016, 05:29:13 PM
The issue is going to come down to regarding whether trucks should be on the Turnpike at all during a snowstorm.  I still don't see how this relates to a new tunnel or tunnel bypass whatsoever.

I agree.  One thing that Colorado does (at least on I-70) is to mandate that trucks have chains on-board and ready for use if they are headed between Denver and Grand Junction during the snow season (which is long there (October to May) thanks to the high elevations).

Colorado added a new wrinkle to winter driving this year called a Traction Law aka "Code 15".  This new regulation states that if a Traction Law (what it is more commonly know in the media) is in effect on a particular stretch of road, only vehicles (cars & otherwise) with either chains, mud &/or snow tires, or 4WD are legally permitted to traverse.  Anyone else caught driving on a stretch of highway where a Traction Law is in effect could be ticketed.

http://kdvr.com/2015/11/07/colorado-to-enforce-little-known-law-more-strictly-on-i-70-this-winter/

It's primarily used on I-70, but I have seen it issued on other highways as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 27, 2016, 08:28:25 AM
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20160127_ap_39fe22b9a9cf4e35a681a9f0a115c6d9.html?c=r

PA Turnpike Westbound to be closed for a few hours Thursday in order to remove a tractor trailer that slid down an embankment during the storm.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on January 27, 2016, 11:51:46 PM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

They plan to either bore a new pair of tunnels with three lanes each, or build a six-lane bypass. Both options would help prevent what happened because there'd be a third lane. Coincidentally, the existing cattle chutes are in place because of slope remediation in preparation for widening the Turnpike east of the tunnel to six lanes. It also appears that trucks are instructed to use only the right lane through the cattle chutes, because the left lane is only 11' wide.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 28, 2016, 08:01:39 AM
I'm waiting to hear what the report says...because media reports had conflicting stories.  Most stories seemed to "blame" trucks having a hard time getting up the mountain.  But other stories "blamed" jack-knifed trucks.  My guess...probably more related to jack-knifed trucks...and once that happens with the snow rates, there isn't much that can be done, even if 6 lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 28, 2016, 08:59:41 AM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

They plan to either bore a new pair of tunnels with three lanes each, or build a six-lane bypass. Both options would help prevent what happened because there'd be a third lane. Coincidentally, the existing cattle chutes are in place because of slope remediation in preparation for widening the Turnpike east of the tunnel to six lanes. It also appears that trucks are instructed to use only the right lane through the cattle chutes, because the left lane is only 11' wide.

No, the instructions are to use the left lane only. This has been widely reported. Not sure where you would've read 'Right Lane Only'.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 28, 2016, 10:53:53 AM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

They plan to either bore a new pair of tunnels with three lanes each, or build a six-lane bypass. Both options would help prevent what happened because there'd be a third lane. Coincidentally, the existing cattle chutes are in place because of slope remediation in preparation for widening the Turnpike east of the tunnel to six lanes. It also appears that trucks are instructed to use only the right lane through the cattle chutes, because the left lane is only 11' wide.

No, the instructions are to use the left lane only. This has been widely reported. Not sure where you would've read 'Right Lane Only'.

The PA Turnpike often keeps trucks in the left lane through cattle-chuted construction zones. They do this when the lanes are slightly narrowed and moved to the right, with the right lane then occupying part of what was the right shoulder. Trucks are kept off the modified right lane because it can be very uneven. In some places it slopes to the right and in some places there are drainage grates with dips. This make it very difficult to keep a tractor-trailer stable. They tend to wiggle and fishtail, even when the road surface is clear and dry.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 28, 2016, 05:40:16 PM
Also, I think the pavement in the shoulders is less thick, making it easier to rut and tear up by all the truck traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 09:28:11 PM
Also, I think the pavement in the shoulders is less thick, making it easier to rut and tear up by all the truck traffic.

I agree.  Perhaps not full-depth pavement to the right. I have seen similar signage in Virginia (but not recently).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 29, 2016, 07:40:34 AM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

They plan to either bore a new pair of tunnels with three lanes each, or build a six-lane bypass. Both options would help prevent what happened because there'd be a third lane. Coincidentally, the existing cattle chutes are in place because of slope remediation in preparation for widening the Turnpike east of the tunnel to six lanes. It also appears that trucks are instructed to use only the right lane through the cattle chutes, because the left lane is only 11' wide.

No, the instructions are to use the left lane only. This has been widely reported. Not sure where you would've read 'Right Lane Only'.

The PA Turnpike often keeps trucks in the left lane through cattle-chuted construction zones. They do this when the lanes are slightly narrowed and moved to the right, with the right lane then occupying part of what was the right shoulder. Trucks are kept off the modified right lane because it can be very uneven. In some places it slopes to the right and in some places there are drainage grates with dips. This make it very difficult to keep a tractor-trailer stable. They tend to wiggle and fishtail, even when the road surface is clear and dry.

The main reason isn't shoulder stability, it's construction vehicle entrances. It depends on where there are construction vehicle entrances in the work zones.  If the construction vehicle entrances are from the right/shoulder, then trucks are limited to the left lane.  But in places where the median is being reconstructed, so the construction vehicle entrances are from the left, then trucks are limited to the right lane. This was a safety study done in terms of the construction vehicle entrances, and the ability of regular trucks to slow down when a construction vehicle enters.  There was a FAQ about this on the Turnpike website years ago about this.

Most times, the shoulder is stabilized before being used for traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 29, 2016, 08:13:27 AM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

They plan to either bore a new pair of tunnels with three lanes each, or build a six-lane bypass. Both options would help prevent what happened because there'd be a third lane. Coincidentally, the existing cattle chutes are in place because of slope remediation in preparation for widening the Turnpike east of the tunnel to six lanes. It also appears that trucks are instructed to use only the right lane through the cattle chutes, because the left lane is only 11' wide.

No, the instructions are to use the left lane only. This has been widely reported. Not sure where you would've read 'Right Lane Only'.

The PA Turnpike often keeps trucks in the left lane through cattle-chuted construction zones. They do this when the lanes are slightly narrowed and moved to the right, with the right lane then occupying part of what was the right shoulder. Trucks are kept off the modified right lane because it can be very uneven. In some places it slopes to the right and in some places there are drainage grates with dips. This make it very difficult to keep a tractor-trailer stable. They tend to wiggle and fishtail, even when the road surface is clear and dry.

The main reason isn't shoulder stability, it's construction vehicle entrances. It depends on where there are construction vehicle entrances in the work zones.  If the construction vehicle entrances are from the right/shoulder, then trucks are limited to the left lane.  But in places where the median is being reconstructed, so the construction vehicle entrances are from the left, then trucks are limited to the right lane. This was a safety study done in terms of the construction vehicle entrances, and the ability of regular trucks to slow down when a construction vehicle enters.  There was a FAQ about this on the Turnpike website years ago about this.

Most times, the shoulder is stabilized before being used for traffic.

It absolutely has to do with the shoulder.  This construction zone was in the median, and trucks were limited to the left lane.

Feel free to drive the PA Turnpike sometimes and view the work zone signage.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 29, 2016, 09:24:32 AM
Actually, it's both reasons (trucks entering from the work zone and the weaker shoulder).

http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-04/news/mc-road-warrior-trucks-left-20110904_1_mid-county-lanes-work-zone
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on January 29, 2016, 10:28:45 AM
It could be for either reason. On the extension, work has shifted to the original travel lanes/median; and trucks and buses are still directed to keep left, though all truck entrances would now also be from the left.

In other construction news, new overhead signage is up for the existing exit 31, with the B portion of the exit plaque covered. It would seem much of this work is redundant with the coming AET, then again, the rate they implement things might make a very useful decade or so...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on January 29, 2016, 11:44:41 AM
It could be for either reason. On the extension, work has shifted to the original travel lanes/median; and trucks and buses are still directed to keep left, though all truck entrances would now also be from the left.

In other construction news, new overhead signage is up for the existing exit 31, with the B portion of the exit plaque covered. It would seem much of this work is redundant with the coming AET, then again, the rate they implement things might make a very useful decade or so...
I saw that new BGS a couple of Saturdays ago.

While such may be redundant with respect with the pending overall AET conversion in the long run; in PTC's defense & as you stated, when this design was initially proposed, it wasn't yet known when a AET conversion for the entire Turnpike was going to take place.

As expected, the new BGS has all mixed-case lettering in Clearview (everything else is, thankfully, Highway Gothic).  In light of FHWA's recent pulling-the-plug on its Interim Approval (for using the Clearview font); unless a change order is made, the other new signs in conjunction with this project will still have the Clearview font.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 29, 2016, 12:00:25 PM
The NJ Turnpike has rebuilt or widened existing toll plazas. With EZ Pass & eventual AET it would seem unnecessary, but it probably shows that all-AET tolling is definitely a number of years down the line.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 29, 2016, 07:17:52 PM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

They plan to either bore a new pair of tunnels with three lanes each, or build a six-lane bypass. Both options would help prevent what happened because there'd be a third lane. Coincidentally, the existing cattle chutes are in place because of slope remediation in preparation for widening the Turnpike east of the tunnel to six lanes. It also appears that trucks are instructed to use only the right lane through the cattle chutes, because the left lane is only 11' wide.

No, the instructions are to use the left lane only. This has been widely reported. Not sure where you would've read 'Right Lane Only'.

The PA Turnpike often keeps trucks in the left lane through cattle-chuted construction zones. They do this when the lanes are slightly narrowed and moved to the right, with the right lane then occupying part of what was the right shoulder. Trucks are kept off the modified right lane because it can be very uneven. In some places it slopes to the right and in some places there are drainage grates with dips. This make it very difficult to keep a tractor-trailer stable. They tend to wiggle and fishtail, even when the road surface is clear and dry.

The main reason isn't shoulder stability, it's construction vehicle entrances. It depends on where there are construction vehicle entrances in the work zones.  If the construction vehicle entrances are from the right/shoulder, then trucks are limited to the left lane.  But in places where the median is being reconstructed, so the construction vehicle entrances are from the left, then trucks are limited to the right lane. This was a safety study done in terms of the construction vehicle entrances, and the ability of regular trucks to slow down when a construction vehicle enters.  There was a FAQ about this on the Turnpike website years ago about this.

Most times, the shoulder is stabilized before being used for traffic.

It absolutely has to do with the shoulder.  This construction zone was in the median, and trucks were limited to the left lane.

Feel free to drive the PA Turnpike sometimes and view the work zone signage.

Why, thank you!  In fact, I DO drive the PA Turnpike often (several times monthly, mostly in the eastern part of the state), and I have seen signs for left and right sides restrictions.

I found the source I read before...not a FAQ, but a post on Allentown's Road Warrior segment, and it lists BOTH shoulder stability and work zone entrances: http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-04/news/mc-road-warrior-trucks-left-20110904_1_mid-county-lanes-work-zone
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 30, 2016, 10:51:02 AM
It's all blah-blah-blah from the PA Turnpike.  Less than two years ago, they had another incident closer to Philly during a snowstorm that closed the highway for an extensive period of time.  They said they would review things then.  Clearly, whatever 'Review' they did resulted in nothing being done.

Of course, they're also looking for excuses to abandon the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel. This just adds to the ammunition.

They plan to either bore a new pair of tunnels with three lanes each, or build a six-lane bypass. Both options would help prevent what happened because there'd be a third lane. Coincidentally, the existing cattle chutes are in place because of slope remediation in preparation for widening the Turnpike east of the tunnel to six lanes. It also appears that trucks are instructed to use only the right lane through the cattle chutes, because the left lane is only 11' wide.

No, the instructions are to use the left lane only. This has been widely reported. Not sure where you would've read 'Right Lane Only'.

The PA Turnpike often keeps trucks in the left lane through cattle-chuted construction zones. They do this when the lanes are slightly narrowed and moved to the right, with the right lane then occupying part of what was the right shoulder. Trucks are kept off the modified right lane because it can be very uneven. In some places it slopes to the right and in some places there are drainage grates with dips. This make it very difficult to keep a tractor-trailer stable. They tend to wiggle and fishtail, even when the road surface is clear and dry.

The main reason isn't shoulder stability, it's construction vehicle entrances. It depends on where there are construction vehicle entrances in the work zones.  If the construction vehicle entrances are from the right/shoulder, then trucks are limited to the left lane.  But in places where the median is being reconstructed, so the construction vehicle entrances are from the left, then trucks are limited to the right lane. This was a safety study done in terms of the construction vehicle entrances, and the ability of regular trucks to slow down when a construction vehicle enters.  There was a FAQ about this on the Turnpike website years ago about this.

Most times, the shoulder is stabilized before being used for traffic.

It absolutely has to do with the shoulder.  This construction zone was in the median, and trucks were limited to the left lane.

I'll go with both reasons, as suggested by MASTERNC and Flyer78.

In the PA Turnpike's cattle-chuted areas, though, trucks are almost always restricted to the left lane, even when construction work is in the center median (as with the widening projects). The outside shoulders aren't unstable, they're uneven. Even with the shoulder rehabbed for vehicular travel, tractor-trailers can be very squirrelly on them
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 03, 2016, 02:23:11 PM
Tribune-Review: Details on Pa. Turnpike traffic backup show heroic efforts by volunteers (http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/9898315-74/turnpike-wertz-drivers)

Quote
Tom Wertz's fire department pager went off at 12:20 a.m. Jan. 23 with a call from Bedford County's emergency dispatching center seeking help for hundreds of drivers stranded on a snow-clogged stretch of the Pennsylvania Turnpike near Allegheny Mountain Tunnel.

Quote
Wertz, 49, chief of Shawnee Valley Volunteer Fire Department, met at the fire hall in nearby Schellsburg with member Justin Milburn and plowed through snow in a four-wheel-drive brush truck to an access gate at mile 138.

Quote
“We had about a foot of snow already, and they said they had a backup on the turnpike. I had no idea what it was going to be like when we got there,”  he said.

Quote
What awaited them was a roughly 16-mile line of traffic that had been building since a tractor-trailer hauling chocolate triggered a 5.6-mile backup when it crashed and blocked the westbound lanes about 5:21 p.m., turnpike officials told the Tribune-Review in response to questions.

Quote
The incident drew national attention and raised questions about whether turnpike officials moved fast enough to help drivers who were stranded overnight and relied largely on volunteer emergency responders from nearby small towns who could reach the area. No one died or was seriously injured, but state officials promised to examine the response.

Quote
Exacerbating the problem as heavy snow fell, at least two tractor-trailers at 7:40 p.m. blocked the turnpike's westbound lanes as they struggled to climb the east slope of Allegheny Mountain near mile 123, officials said. Shortly after 9 p.m., the backlog grew when westbound traffic was stopped near the Kegg Maintenance Building at mile 132.2 to prevent more vehicles from entering narrow "cattle chutes" in place because of a construction project.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 18, 2016, 09:17:26 PM
Looks like the Turnpike issued an RFP for a cashless tolling system.  Such a system would start on the extension roads in Western PA (besides I-376, the Mon-Fayette and Toll 66 would be converted in six month intervals).

https://www.paturnpike.com/OUTPUT/PDFs/RFPs/100824.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 23, 2016, 08:02:11 AM
The PTC had no scruples about not connecting its road to I-95 or forcing drivers to endure a stoplight when transitioning to I-80 or to pick their way through Morgantown getting to I-176 (not to mention making Breezewood Breezewood), but why was it willing to connect the NE Extension to U.S. 22 (or for that matter, the NE Ext. and mainline Turnpike to free I-476)?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on February 23, 2016, 09:31:12 AM
The PTC had no scruples about not connecting its road to I-95
That one will eventually be a thing of the past in the next few years (at least for the future through I-95 movements).  Construction for this project has since begun.

to pick their way through Morgantown getting to I-176
There's been a direct connection (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1674472,-75.8942139,15z) from the Turnpike to I-176 since the mid-90s.

why was it willing to connect the NE Extension to U.S. 22
IIRC, the twisted (IMHO) direct connection prohibition that existed at the time was toll towards toll roads connecting to Interstates freeways, not US nor state freeways.

(or for that matter, the NE Ext. and mainline Turnpike to free I-476)?
The reasoning for PTC building a direct connection between the E-W Turnpike (I-276) and the NE Extension (I-476) is a no-brainer; both roads are part of the PTC system. 

As far as the Blue Route (free I-476) semi-direct (to get to I-276 West from I-476 North, one still needs to get onto Germantown Pike and enter at the adjacent Norristown interchange) connection is concerned; such a restriction (regarding direct Interstate connections) were likely no longer an issue, development along Germantown Pike (mainly the Plymouth Meeting Mall) coupled with complaints regarding northbound I-476 traffic being dumped on Chemical Road (prior to the Turnpike connection) were loud enough to warrant building the present connection.  I believe the Mid-County Toll Plaza is now the largest toll plaza along the PTC system (Valley Forge is the 2nd largest); the large traffic demand along I-476, no doubt motivated the size of that plaza (obviously pre-E-ZPass and AET) to be as large as it is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on February 23, 2016, 11:11:16 AM
Is it a even a fair statement to say that a "prohibition" has been in place for the last few decades?  For every non-connection (I-95, I-99, I-70 Breezewood, I-81 Carlisle, I-80), there are direct ones (though substandard in many cases) with I-79, I-376 Monroeville, I-70 New Stanton, I-83, I-283, I-176, I-76 east, I-81 Clarks Summit (kind-of). 

My guess is that it seems to be that a case of priority/need-based and/or local opposition.  Most of the money is going towards reconstruction/widening (Act 44 aside).  In the cases of Breezewood and Carlisle, is there assumed massive opposition by the trucker businesses?  As inconvenient as Breezewood is, is it a massive backup routinely?  There aren't massive backups at I-80 Pocono.  Carlisle is a pain, but I'd point towards businesses there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on February 23, 2016, 11:18:20 AM
The truck traffic on US 11 in Carlisle is impressive.  I don't know if I've ever had a real long delay through there, but it does slow you down.

I doubt if a direct connection is even possible anymore due to the large businesses/distribution centers in the immediate area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on February 23, 2016, 11:31:42 AM
The truck traffic on US 11 in Carlisle is impressive.  I don't know if I've ever had a real long delay through there, but it does slow you down.
Whenever there's a car show taking place on the fairgrounds; traffic along US 11 gets very heavy.  One Saturday, I've seen it back up as far north as the I-81 interchange when the All-Ford Nationals was taking place.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 23, 2016, 07:49:25 PM
Also, I think the pavement in the shoulders is less thick, making it easier to rut and tear up by all the truck traffic.

I agree.  Perhaps not full-depth pavement to the right. I have seen similar signage in Virginia (but not recently).

Definitely seen it in Ohio in construction zones.  Sign is usually "Trucks Use Left Lane"
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 23, 2016, 08:32:07 PM
The PTC had no scruples about not connecting its road to I-95
That one will eventually be a thing of the past in the next few years (at least for the future through I-95 movements).  Construction for this project has since begun.

I know that.

Quote
There's been a direct connection (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1674472,-75.8942139,15z) from the Turnpike to I-176 since the mid-90s.

I know that.  I drove by it a couple of times during construction.  I've used it a couple of times since it opened.

Quote
IIRC, the twisted (IMHO) direct connection prohibition that existed at the time was toll towards toll roads connecting to Interstates freeways, not US nor state freeways.

I agree the prohibition had pretzel logic.

Yes, per pahighways.com, the 22 freeway opened in 1954 (PA 100 in Fogelsville to PA 987 near ABE [now LVI] Airport) and 1955 (PA 987 to the Easton-Phillipsburg Bridge).  This antedated the 1956 Interstate Highway act.  (Now making some sense.)

Quote
The reasoning for PTC building a direct connection between the E-W Turnpike (I-276) and the NE Extension (I-476) is a no-brainer; both roads are part of the PTC system. 

As far as the Blue Route (free I-476) semi-direct (to get to I-276 West from I-476 North, one still needs to get onto Germantown Pike and enter at the adjacent Norristown interchange) connection is concerned; such a restriction (regarding direct Interstate connections) were likely no longer an issue, development along Germantown Pike (mainly the Plymouth Meeting Mall) coupled with complaints regarding northbound I-476 traffic being dumped on Chemical Road (prior to the Turnpike connection) were loud enough to warrant building the present connection.  I believe the Mid-County Toll Plaza is now the largest toll plaza along the PTC system (Valley Forge is the 2nd largest); the large traffic demand along I-476, no doubt motivated the size of that plaza (obviously pre-E-ZPass and AET) to be as large as it is.


Per Google satellite, that transition from 476 north to 276 west is free of stoplights (and I noticed the couple of at-speed E-ZPass lanes in each direction at the toll plaza).

IIRC for the first 12 months after the Mid-County Expressway opened full-length, the only direct access from same to the turnpike was the ramp to 276 east.  All movements from the Blue Route to 276 west and the northbound NE Ext. were via Germantown Pike.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on February 24, 2016, 09:22:21 AM
The only reason I responded to your posts in Reply #1368 in the manner that I did was that based on your wording (particularly the I-176/Morgantown interchange comment) it gave one the impression that the info. you posted has since been outdated.

Per Google satellite, that transition from 476 north to 276 west is free of stoplights (and I noticed the couple of at-speed E-ZPass lanes in each direction at the toll plaza).
Yes, but one still uses another road (Germantown Pike) as a means of reaching the westbound Turnpike (I-276).  The only reason why there's no traffic light between the 2 interchanges (Blue Route & Turnpike) along Germantown Pike is because of their close proximity.

IIRC for the first 12 months after the Mid-County Expressway opened full-length, the only direct access from same to the turnpike was the ramp to 276 east.  All movements from the Blue Route to 276 west and the northbound NE Ext. were via Germantown Pike.
Such was obviously a temporary condition due to the northbound overpass being overhauled; it was raised to accommodate the then-new directional ramp (from I-276 West to I-476 South) underneath.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 08, 2016, 07:59:01 PM
I follow the construction projects on the PTC rather diligently.  I have wondered to awhile why the separate websites for projects on the eastern portion are so lacking in progress photos and updates vs the western projects?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 11, 2016, 02:08:04 PM
If someone is going to rob money from any toll road toll plaza, why not rob one that is busy (and presumably has lots of cash transactions)? Fort Littleton does not seem to be a very busy place when compared to Pennsylvania Turnpike toll barriers at places like Warrendale, New Stanton, Breezewood, Carlisle, and Valley Forge.
 
AP via MCall.com: Turnpike worker recalls attack that left three dead (http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-pa-toll-plaza-shooting-survivor-20160410-story.html)

Quote
A Pennsylvania Turnpike toll collector who survived a botched robbery attempt last month that left three people dead said she was terrified but her instincts took over during the attack by a retired state trooper, who was killed by police responding to her call for help.

Quote
Martha Berkstresser told The Associated Press in an interview last week that her "mind was going 24 mph" after Clarence Briggs pulled a gun on her and co-worker Danny Crouse as they were counting money at a booth in the Fort Littleton interchange during the predawn twilight on Sunday, March 20.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on April 11, 2016, 03:52:34 PM
I honestly just go I-80 anyway.  :)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 03, 2016, 12:23:35 AM
TheTimes-Tribune.com:  Turnpike, PennDOT officials announce Scranton Beltway plans (http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/turnpike-penndot-officials-announce-scranton-beltway-plans-1.2036534)

Quote
Hang on Interstate 81 drivers, help is on the way.

Quote
However, it will cost you and is at least seven years away.

Quote
State transportation officials outlined more detailed plans Thursday for a proposed $170 million Scranton Beltway designed to divert traffic off the busiest local stretch of Interstate 81 onto the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

The beltway probably won’t be ready until 2023.

The project would mark the largest local highway construction project since the 1990s construction of the $460 million Casey Highway across Lackawanna County, state Sen. John Blake said.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on May 03, 2016, 08:03:42 AM
TheTimes-Tribune.com:  Turnpike, PennDOT officials announce Scranton Beltway plans (http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/turnpike-penndot-officials-announce-scranton-beltway-plans-1.2036534)

Quote
Hang on Interstate 81 drivers, help is on the way.

Quote
However, it will cost you and is at least seven years away.

Quote
State transportation officials outlined more detailed plans Thursday for a proposed $170 million Scranton Beltway designed to divert traffic off the busiest local stretch of Interstate 81 onto the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

The beltway probably won’t be ready until 2023.

The project would mark the largest local highway construction project since the 1990s construction of the $460 million Casey Highway across Lackawanna County, state Sen. John Blake said.


I'm not sure that at-speed tolling plazas would greatly increase the use of I-476/Northeast Extension along that route.  Probably would go up a little, but I still see I-81's numbers staying around where they are despite the improvements.

Really odd that they call it the "beltway" -- seems to imply that they're building a new road when really, it's just totally revamping the I-81/I-476 connections.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 03, 2016, 08:20:18 AM
Interesting that they think the majority of traffic that would make use of the tolled bypass would be truckers, which as a whole seek out ways to avoid tolls.  Wonder how they came upon that analysis.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 01:49:16 PM
Indeed.  The I-81 junctions definitely could use improvement, but this is not the reason why.  People will still avoid I-476 because they don't want to pay.  It won't do anything for anyone going to/from I-380, I-84, or US 6.  It won't do anything if you're getting off anywhere in or near Scranton.  About the only people it would attract is people from NY going to/from points south on I-81 who want to go 70 instead of 55.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on May 03, 2016, 03:06:16 PM
Really odd that they call it the "beltway" -- seems to imply that they're building a new road when really, it's just totally revamping the I-81/I-476 connections.

Yeah... maybe just "Bypass" would have been better than Beltway.

The only time I've been thru the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area on a family trip, I think the summer between my 9th-10th grades in the mid 90's, my dad made a point of taking this stretch of the NE Extension to expressly avoid I-81 in the area, and thought it well worth the money (though the tolls were a good bit less then, and I think the highway was still PA-9 at the time)

At any rate, since PennDOT admitted they're pretty much not going to do any widening or major improvements to I-81 there, it's better than nothing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on May 03, 2016, 03:37:54 PM


Really odd that they call it the "beltway" -- seems to imply that they're building a new road when really, it's just totally revamping the I-81/I-476 connections.

Providing faster access to... Kaiser Rd?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 03, 2016, 03:44:25 PM
I travel that area 3x or 4x a year; I tend to use I-476 instead of I-81 to avoid the traffic...even if it's not stop and go on I-81, it's still much more crowded and annoying than I-476.  I-476 is usually virtually empty.

BUT...my travels usually keep me on I-476 headed to/from Philly.  So the extra $2 in EZPass tolls for me is worth it.  What I can't see is...people on I-81 either direction, who are going to stay on I-81 north to NY or south to Hazleton, deciding to jump off onto I-476 for that 10 mile stretch.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 05:29:30 PM
Perhaps they could install travel time signs or otherwise emphasize the difference in speed limit?

Another idea would be to swap I-81 and I-476, thereby emphasizing the PTC as a bypass?

Really odd that they call it the "beltway" -- seems to imply that they're building a new road when really, it's just totally revamping the I-81/I-476 connections.

Yeah... maybe just "Bypass" would have been better than Beltway.

The only time I've been thru the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area on a family trip, I think the summer between my 9th-10th grades in the mid 90's, my dad made a point of taking this stretch of the NE Extension to expressly avoid I-81 in the area, and thought it well worth the money (though the tolls were a good bit less then, and I think the highway was still PA-9 at the time)

At any rate, since PennDOT admitted they're pretty much not going to do any widening or major improvements to I-81 there, it's better than nothing.
Well, one would be able to loop around Scranton like one would in any other beltway if the new junctions have all movements, but the lack of local exits on I-476 begs the question of why one could possibly WANT to.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on May 03, 2016, 07:31:31 PM
Perhaps they could install travel time signs or otherwise emphasize the difference in speed limit?

Another idea would be to swap I-81 and I-476, thereby emphasizing the PTC as a bypass?

Really odd that they call it the "beltway" -- seems to imply that they're building a new road when really, it's just totally revamping the I-81/I-476 connections.

Yeah... maybe just "Bypass" would have been better than Beltway.

The only time I've been thru the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area on a family trip, I think the summer between my 9th-10th grades in the mid 90's, my dad made a point of taking this stretch of the NE Extension to expressly avoid I-81 in the area, and thought it well worth the money (though the tolls were a good bit less then, and I think the highway was still PA-9 at the time)

At any rate, since PennDOT admitted they're pretty much not going to do any widening or major improvements to I-81 there, it's better than nothing.
Well, one would be able to loop around Scranton like one would in any other beltway if the new junctions have all movements, but the lack of local exits on I-476 begs the question of why one could possibly WANT to.

I mainly see this as tolled express lanes without the congestion pricing or the HOV aspect.  Honestly, the travel times could be there now if the PTC and PennDOT were interested in having their ITS units work together. (if the PTC was interested in doing that, you would probably some sort of PA Turnpike destination when heading into King of Prussia on I-76 WB, instead of just the time to US 30 in Exton via US 202 SB).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on May 03, 2016, 09:22:48 PM
Not that I’m saying they should do this, but once a high-speed direct connection between I-81 and the NE Extension is in place, is there anything that would prevent PennDOT from signing something like “THRU TRAFFIC - Harrisburg”  on I-476 and “LOCAL TRAFFIC - Scranton”  on I-81? Kind of like with I-495 in Wilmington or I-470 in Wheeling?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on May 03, 2016, 11:04:07 PM
I've noticed more willingness to use toll roads in Texas, where people jump on to avoid delays on the free parallel Interstates (and other state/US freeways, expressways, and arterials). I think if you get enough congestion and there is no free-flowing untolled route, the tolled route will pick up volume.
Title: PA Turnpike Tips
Post by: jcn on May 04, 2016, 01:00:39 PM
Here's one tip when traveling on the PA turnpike.  If you are traveling westbound on the turnpike, and you get on the turnpike at or before the Lebanon Interchange, always stop at the Lawn Service Plaza.  This is because the next service plaza, Blue Mountain, is not for 90 miles which is the longest gap between service plazas westbound wise.  And while along the first half of the gap, there are a spew of exits in the Harrisburg area that have nearby accommodations in case of an emergency, as soon as you pass the Carlisle exit, there is not another exit before the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and that service plaza isn't for another 40 miles.  I share this because my brother went to University of Pittsburgh and I'm from the Philly area, so my family would travel frequently to Pittsburgh on the turnpike, and one time, we were traveling on the stretch between the Carlisle exit and the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and my mother had to use the restroom really bad, and we were so close to running out of gas.  Fortunately, we made it to Blue Mountain before disaster occured, but we were all so worried.  Even since then, we would always stop at Lawn.

Does anyone have any other tips for traveling the turnpike?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on May 04, 2016, 01:12:27 PM
I've noticed more willingness to use toll roads in Texas, where people jump on to avoid delays on the free parallel Interstates (and other state/US freeways, expressways, and arterials). I think if you get enough congestion and there is no free-flowing untolled route, the tolled route will pick up volume.

It also helps that the speed limit is higher on them, at least in Dallas/Fort Worth.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on May 04, 2016, 04:04:22 PM
I've noticed more willingness to use toll roads in Texas, where people jump on to avoid delays on the free parallel Interstates (and other state/US freeways, expressways, and arterials). I think if you get enough congestion and there is no free-flowing untolled route, the tolled route will pick up volume.

It also helps that the speed limit is higher on them, at least in Dallas/Fort Worth.
Well, I-35 between San Antonio and the Austin area has TX 130 as the tolled alternative, and I-35 gets plenty of traffic. TX 130 gets cricket sounds everywhere, as when it had opened, Section 5 and 6 had only 6000 AADT as of 2013. Texas A&M Transportation Institute found incentives to use TX 130, but although through trucks are a small part of traffic of I-35, there's still a lot of trucks there than on TX 130. Even on the 85 mph segment, there's still not a lot of traffic, and the 130 Concession Company went bankrupt too.

So it's essentially a gamble if that toll road picks up volume, even if the free road is congested.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 04, 2016, 08:40:41 PM
Here's one tip when traveling on the PA turnpike.  If you are traveling westbound on the turnpike, and you get on the turnpike at or before the Lebanon Interchange, always stop at the Lawn Service Plaza.  This is because the next service plaza, Blue Mountain, is not for 90 miles which is the longest gap between service plazas westbound wise.  And while along the first half of the gap, there are a spew of exits in the Harrisburg area that have nearby accommodations in case of an emergency, as soon as you pass the Carlisle exit, there is not another exit before the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and that service plaza isn't for another 40 miles.  I share this because my brother went to University of Pittsburgh and I'm from the Philly area, so my family would travel frequently to Pittsburgh on the turnpike, and one time, we were traveling on the stretch between the Carlisle exit and the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and my mother had to use the restroom really bad, and we were so close to running out of gas.  Fortunately, we made it to Blue Mountain before disaster occured, but we were all so worried.  Even since then, we would always stop at Lawn.

Does anyone have any other tips for traveling the turnpike?

I'm not sure it is 90 miles between Lawn and Blue Mountain.  I'm seeing the distance as 56 miles per the PA Turnpike website - it is still on the long side though.  The largest gap is west of New Stanton, given there's no longer a service plaza between there and the Ohio state line.  It's at least 77 miles between plazas in that case.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on May 04, 2016, 08:42:14 PM
Here's one tip when traveling on the PA turnpike.  If you are traveling westbound on the turnpike, and you get on the turnpike at or before the Lebanon Interchange, always stop at the Lawn Service Plaza.  This is because the next service plaza, Blue Mountain, is not for 90 miles which is the longest gap between service plazas westbound wise.  And while along the first half of the gap, there are a spew of exits in the Harrisburg area that have nearby accommodations in case of an emergency, as soon as you pass the Carlisle exit, there is not another exit before the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and that service plaza isn't for another 40 miles.  I share this because my brother went to University of Pittsburgh and I'm from the Philly area, so my family would travel frequently to Pittsburgh on the turnpike, and one time, we were traveling on the stretch between the Carlisle exit and the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and my mother had to use the restroom really bad, and we were so close to running out of gas.  Fortunately, we made it to Blue Mountain before disaster occured, but we were all so worried.  Even since then, we would always stop at Lawn.

Does anyone have any other tips for traveling the turnpike?

I'm not sure it is 90 miles between Lawn and Blue Mountain.  I'm seeing the distance as 56 miles per the PA Turnpike website - it is still on the long side though.  The largest gap is west of New Stanton, given there's no longer a service plaza between there and the Ohio state line.  It's at least 77 miles between plazas in that case.

I have an even better tip. Just drive I-80 instead.
For real, drive a little more cautiously because that road is prone to accidents.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 04, 2016, 08:55:33 PM
I have an even better tip. Just drive I-80 instead.
For real, drive a little more cautiously because that road is prone to accidents.

For me (living in Maryland), I-80 is not at all a feasible or worthwhile alternative to the I-70/I-76 part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, even though that trip includes Breezewood. 

In some cases (depending on destination) I-68 to I-79 or even to Turnpike 43 is a workable bypass route.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on May 04, 2016, 09:15:49 PM
I have an even better tip. Just drive I-80 instead.
For real, drive a little more cautiously because that road is prone to accidents.

For me (living in Maryland), I-80 is not at all a feasible or worthwhile alternative to the I-70/I-76 part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, even though that trip includes Breezewood. 

In some cases (depending on destination) I-68 to I-79 or even to Turnpike 43 is a workable bypass route.

For those living in New York, use I-80. For those in Maryland, use I-68. I actually like I-68 more, but I live in New York so it is a bit out of my way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on May 04, 2016, 09:24:05 PM
As one who has driven both I-80 and the Pa. Tpk. between New Jersey and the Altoona-State College area, I prefer the Turnpike even with the tolls. I-80 is a horribly boring drive. Miles and miles of nothing to see. At least the Turnpike has service areas, interesting tunnels and is generally more scenic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on May 04, 2016, 09:25:19 PM
Here's one tip when traveling on the PA turnpike.  If you are traveling westbound on the turnpike, and you get on the turnpike at or before the Lebanon Interchange, always stop at the Lawn Service Plaza.  This is because the next service plaza, Blue Mountain, is not for 90 miles which is the longest gap between service plazas westbound wise.  And while along the first half of the gap, there are a spew of exits in the Harrisburg area that have nearby accommodations in case of an emergency, as soon as you pass the Carlisle exit, there is not another exit before the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and that service plaza isn't for another 40 miles.  I share this because my brother went to University of Pittsburgh and I'm from the Philly area, so my family would travel frequently to Pittsburgh on the turnpike, and one time, we were traveling on the stretch between the Carlisle exit and the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and my mother had to use the restroom really bad, and we were so close to running out of gas.  Fortunately, we made it to Blue Mountain before disaster occured, but we were all so worried.  Even since then, we would always stop at Lawn.

Does anyone have any other tips for traveling the turnpike?

I'm not sure it is 90 miles between Lawn and Blue Mountain.  I'm seeing the distance as 56 miles per the PA Turnpike website - it is still on the long side though.  The largest gap is west of New Stanton, given there's no longer a service plaza between there and the Ohio state line.  It's at least 77 miles between plazas in that case.
Then again, how did the old Zelienople service plaza go bankrupt and close? That made the gap between services much more tolerable, as it was about 25 miles to the next service plaza at the Mahoning Valley service plaza on the Ohio Turnpike. Although it was 56 miles from New Stanton to there, it's a tolerable gap, and 25 miles is also decent. Would've helped a lot, as Pittsburgh is really far from there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on May 04, 2016, 09:25:54 PM
As one who has driven both I-80 and the Pa. Tpk. between New Jersey and the Altoona-State College area, I prefer the Turnpike even with the tolls. I-80 is a horribly boring drive. Miles and miles of nothing to see. At least the Turnpike has service areas, interesting tunnels and is generally more scenic.

I've been on both as well, and I find I-80 to be more interesting and scenic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on May 04, 2016, 10:17:20 PM
I've noticed more willingness to use toll roads in Texas, where people jump on to avoid delays on the free parallel Interstates (and other state/US freeways, expressways, and arterials). I think if you get enough congestion and there is no free-flowing untolled route, the tolled route will pick up volume.

It also helps that the speed limit is higher on them, at least in Dallas/Fort Worth.
Well, I-35 between San Antonio and the Austin area has TX 130 as the tolled alternative, and I-35 gets plenty of traffic. TX 130 gets cricket sounds everywhere, as when it had opened, Section 5 and 6 had only 6000 AADT as of 2013. Texas A&M Transportation Institute found incentives to use TX 130, but although through trucks are a small part of traffic of I-35, there's still a lot of trucks there than on TX 130. Even on the 85 mph segment, there's still not a lot of traffic, and the 130 Concession Company went bankrupt too.

So it's essentially a gamble if that toll road picks up volume, even if the free road is congested.
I said parallel. TX 130 serves an empty corridor.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on May 04, 2016, 11:58:48 PM
Then again, how did the old Zelienople service plaza go bankrupt and close?

Zelienople didn’t go bankrupt–it couldn’t. Service plazas aren’t independent businesses.

Here’s what happened: HMS Host, the private company that operates the food concessions at all of the PA Turnpike’s service plazas (and on countless other toll roads, at airports, and elsewhere nationwide) entered into an agreement with the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to reconstruct all of the service plazas at HMS’s expense. In exchange, HMS gets an exclusive license to operate the service plazas for 30 years.

HMS looked at the sales figures for the various plazas, realized that Zelienople was one of their poorest performing locations–not worth the cost to completely reconstruct the plaza. Here’s an article from the Post-Gazette (http://www.post-gazette.com/local/north/2008/11/09/Closing-Zelienople-turnpike-plaza-could-hurt-tourism-some-say/stories/200811090326) explaining the closure.

The number of service plazas has been steadily dwindling since the primary PA Turnpike system was completed in 1957. Twelve service plazas have been permanently closed:

- Laurel Hill (1957)
- New Baltimore (1957)
- Cove Valley (1968)
- Denver (1980)
- Mechanicsburg (1980)
- Pleasant Valley (1980)
- Path Valley (1983)
- Butler (2002)
- Hempfield (2007)
- South Neshaminy (2007)
- Zelienople (2008)
- North Neshaminy (2010)

Some of these plazas were demolished to make room for widening (Hempfield, Neshaminy), but others were closed simply because business was poor. Here’s a Post-Gazette article from 1983 (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sk0NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mW0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6807%2C16471) which mentions that Exxon and Howard Johnson’s negotiated with the PTC to close Path Valley because it was unprofitable.

But some of the closed plazas were tiny and primitive compared with today’s plazas. Some of them were little more than a lunch counter and literally a couple fuel pumps. Here’s a photo of the tiny New Baltimore service station.

(http://explorepahistory.com/kora/files/1/2/1-2-135A-25-ExplorePAHistory-a0l0b6-a_349.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on May 05, 2016, 02:16:30 AM
I've noticed more willingness to use toll roads in Texas, where people jump on to avoid delays on the free parallel Interstates (and other state/US freeways, expressways, and arterials). I think if you get enough congestion and there is no free-flowing untolled route, the tolled route will pick up volume.

It also helps that the speed limit is higher on them, at least in Dallas/Fort Worth.
Well, I-35 between San Antonio and the Austin area has TX 130 as the tolled alternative, and I-35 gets plenty of traffic. TX 130 gets cricket sounds everywhere, as when it had opened, Section 5 and 6 had only 6000 AADT as of 2013. Texas A&M Transportation Institute found incentives to use TX 130, but although through trucks are a small part of traffic of I-35, there's still a lot of trucks there than on TX 130. Even on the 85 mph segment, there's still not a lot of traffic, and the 130 Concession Company went bankrupt too.

So it's essentially a gamble if that toll road picks up volume, even if the free road is congested.
I said parallel. TX 130 serves an empty corridor.

TX 130 hits I-10 too far east to attract San Antonio traffic and too far west for Houston traffic. It really needed to come in west of Seguin.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 05, 2016, 08:47:36 AM
As one who has driven both I-80 and the Pa. Tpk. between New Jersey and the Altoona-State College area, I prefer the Turnpike even with the tolls. I-80 is a horribly boring drive. Miles and miles of nothing to see. At least the Turnpike has service areas, interesting tunnels and is generally more scenic.

I've been on both as well, and I find I-80 to be more interesting and scenic.

Drive both of them enough, and they're both boring.

From South Jersey, when I go to Ohio, often times I'll take the PA Turnpike out, and I-80 to the NE Extension back.  Last time, I did the reverse. 

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jcn on May 10, 2016, 02:34:35 AM
Here's one tip when traveling on the PA turnpike.  If you are traveling westbound on the turnpike, and you get on the turnpike at or before the Lebanon Interchange, always stop at the Lawn Service Plaza.  This is because the next service plaza, Blue Mountain, is not for 90 miles which is the longest gap between service plazas westbound wise.  And while along the first half of the gap, there are a spew of exits in the Harrisburg area that have nearby accommodations in case of an emergency, as soon as you pass the Carlisle exit, there is not another exit before the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and that service plaza isn't for another 40 miles.  I share this because my brother went to University of Pittsburgh and I'm from the Philly area, so my family would travel frequently to Pittsburgh on the turnpike, and one time, we were traveling on the stretch between the Carlisle exit and the Blue Mountain Service Plaza, and my mother had to use the restroom really bad, and we were so close to running out of gas.  Fortunately, we made it to Blue Mountain before disaster occured, but we were all so worried.  Even since then, we would always stop at Lawn.

Does anyone have any other tips for traveling the turnpike?

I'm not sure it is 90 miles between Lawn and Blue Mountain.  I'm seeing the distance as 56 miles per the PA Turnpike website - it is still on the long side though.  The largest gap is west of New Stanton, given there's no longer a service plaza between there and the Ohio state line.  It's at least 77 miles between plazas in that case.


You're right, it is only 56 miles between the service plazas.  What happened was I mixed up miles and kilometers.  :banghead:  It's 90 kilometers between service plazas, not miles.

You're also right that there is a bigger gap between New Stanton and the service plaza after in Ohio.  But, starting at the first exit after the New Stanton plaza, there are signs saying which restaurants are off of the exits due to the fact that New Stanton is the last service plaza on the PA Turnpike.  That's not the case between Lawn and Blue Mountain because Lawn obviously isn't the last plaza. 

Also, like I said, there's a 25 mile gap between the Carlisle exit and the Blue Mountain.  In between the New Stanton plaza and the first plaza in Ohio, there isn't as big of a gap between exits.  Therefore, in regards to both exits and service plazas, the biggest gap westbound is from Carlisle to Blue Mountain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 10, 2016, 08:16:05 AM
Therefore, in regards to both exits and service plazas, the biggest gap westbound is from Carlisle to Blue Mountain.

Actually, the biggest gap in both directions is from the Somerset Service Plazas to the Bedford exit, which is about 34 miles.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jcn on May 10, 2016, 12:52:40 PM
Therefore, in regards to both exits and service plazas, the biggest gap westbound is from Carlisle to Blue Mountain.

Actually, the biggest gap in both directions is from the Somerset Service Plazas to the Bedford exit, which is about 34 miles.

You're right. :ded:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 17, 2016, 08:32:14 PM
Just drove from Philly to Pittsburgh today.  Saw several instances of the PTC using the new Daktronics VMSs to display "traffic signs", though the quality didn't seem as good as the ones on the NJ TPK.

There is also a new graphic sign they are using in the construction zone near Carlisle (they displayed it on the VMS and on freestanding signs).  It is a long white rectangular sign and shows two trucks side by side, bordered by side profiles of guard rail on the right and median on the left.  A green circle surrounds the truck in the left lane while a red "no" symbol is over the truck in the right lane (indicating trucks are to be in the left lane).  It reminds me somewhat of the European "no passing" signs but it uses the same color circles as the small hazmat signs you sometimes see in the Midwest.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 21, 2016, 08:55:40 PM
It reminds me somewhat of the European "no passing" signs but it uses the same color circles as the small hazmat signs you sometimes see in the Midwest.

"Trucks No Passing" in Sweden is this:

(https://korkortonline.se/images/vagmarken/stor/C29-1.png)

No HAZMATs is this:

(https://korkortonline.se/images/vagmarken/stor/C9-1.png)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 21, 2016, 09:04:48 PM
I'm not sure it is 90 miles between Lawn and Blue Mountain.  I'm seeing the distance as 56 miles per the PA Turnpike website - it is still on the long side though.  The largest gap is west of New Stanton, given there's no longer a service plaza between there and the Ohio state line.  It's at least 77 miles between plazas in that case.

According to Google, it is  81+ miles from the New Stanton service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (the last one westbound on the E-W Mainline) to the first one  on the Ohio Pike (Mahoning Valley).  IMO, the PTC and its service plaza concession holder ought to be able to have some on-Turnpike services in that long stretch, perhaps between I-79 and Ohio?

That's awfully far for a road that supposedly provides service plazas for its patrons (and I know that at least some of the exits on the westbound Penn Pike between New Stanton and the Ohio border show services available at the interchanges).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 21, 2016, 09:32:28 PM
I'm not sure it is 90 miles between Lawn and Blue Mountain.  I'm seeing the distance as 56 miles per the PA Turnpike website - it is still on the long side though.  The largest gap is west of New Stanton, given there's no longer a service plaza between there and the Ohio state line.  It's at least 77 miles between plazas in that case.

According to Google, it is  81+ miles from the New Stanton service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (the last one westbound on the E-W Mainline) to the first one  on the Ohio Pike (Mahoning Valley).  IMO, the PTC and its service plaza concession holder ought to be able to have some on-Turnpike services in that long stretch, perhaps between I-79 and Ohio?

That's awfully far for a road that supposedly provides service plazas for its patrons (and I know that at least some of the exits on the westbound Penn Pike between New Stanton and the Ohio border show services available at the interchanges).

At least the road is toll-free west of I-79, so one doesn't have to pass through a toll booth any extra times to eat/get gas at an exit.

The distance from the Lee service plaza on the Mass Pike to the first one on I-90 in New York (Patersonville) is 67.4 miles. If one follows the Berkshire Spur to the Thruway mainline recommended route, there are zero easily-accessible services between them except for the new truck stop at Exit B3. IMO, that is worse, even if it is 15 miles shorter. At least the I-79/US 19 exit has a bunch of options while being easy on/off.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 21, 2016, 09:33:16 PM
I'm not sure it is 90 miles between Lawn and Blue Mountain.  I'm seeing the distance as 56 miles per the PA Turnpike website - it is still on the long side though.  The largest gap is west of New Stanton, given there's no longer a service plaza between there and the Ohio state line.  It's at least 77 miles between plazas in that case.

According to Google, it is  81+ miles from the New Stanton service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (the last one westbound on the E-W Mainline) to the first one  on the Ohio Pike (Mahoning Valley).  IMO, the PTC and its service plaza concession holder ought to be able to have some on-Turnpike services in that long stretch, perhaps between I-79 and Ohio?

That's awfully far for a road that supposedly provides service plazas for its patrons (and I know that at least some of the exits on the westbound Penn Pike between New Stanton and the Ohio border show services available at the interchanges).

There are service signs WB past New Stanton (and also some east of Valley Forge).  That said, you technically pay a "penalty" for exiting and re-entering the Turnpike (i.e. toll from A to B and B to C is more than A to C) if you can't wait until passing the mainline toll plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 21, 2016, 10:06:02 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 22, 2016, 05:17:04 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!

Correct.  But for convenience, the service plazas are IMO best, and in many states they have gotten nice renovations in recent years (such as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut).

Wish they were allowed by the feds on "free" freeways, as they are in Quebec and especially Ontario - and in many EU nations.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on June 22, 2016, 05:34:51 PM
Yet liquor stores can be present in a rest area in NH, go figure!  Anyway most likely because its under the rest area umbrella, however I am guessing CT is still allowed to keep plazas because its grandfathered into it being it was a toll road on I-95.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on June 22, 2016, 05:42:16 PM
I am guessing CT is still allowed to keep plazas because its grandfathered into it being it was a toll road on I-95.
You guessed correctly.  Similar can be said regarding the Newton (southbound) and Lexington (northbound) service plazas along I-95 (MA 128) in MA.  Those predated 128 becoming the de-facto I-95 and were also grandfathered.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 22, 2016, 06:17:28 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!

Correct.  But for convenience, the service plazas are IMO best, and in many states they have gotten nice renovations in recent years (such as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut).

Wish they were allowed by the feds on "free" freeways, as they are in Quebec and especially Ontario - and in many EU nations.

If they aren't allowed, then how the heck is NYSDOT putting in rest areas with stores on the LIE and I-90 east of Albany?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on June 22, 2016, 07:01:45 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!

Correct.  But for convenience, the service plazas are IMO best, and in many states they have gotten nice renovations in recent years (such as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut).

Wish they were allowed by the feds on "free" freeways, as they are in Quebec and especially Ontario - and in many EU nations.

If they aren't allowed, then how the heck is NYSDOT putting in rest areas with stores on the LIE and I-90 east of Albany?

I travel the LIE a lot, and I have not seen a single store in the one or two rest areas on it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 22, 2016, 07:19:42 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!

Correct.  But for convenience, the service plazas are IMO best, and in many states they have gotten nice renovations in recent years (such as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut).

Wish they were allowed by the feds on "free" freeways, as they are in Quebec and especially Ontario - and in many EU nations.

If they aren't allowed, then how the heck is NYSDOT putting in rest areas with stores on the LIE and I-90 east of Albany?

I travel the LIE a lot, and I have not seen a single store in the one or two rest areas on it.

They're building a new one with a Taste NY store. Construction hasn't started yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2016, 07:25:40 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!

Correct.  But for convenience, the service plazas are IMO best, and in many states they have gotten nice renovations in recent years (such as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut).

Wish they were allowed by the feds on "free" freeways, as they are in Quebec and especially Ontario - and in many EU nations.

If they aren't allowed, then how the heck is NYSDOT putting in rest areas with stores on the LIE and I-90 east of Albany?

I travel the LIE a lot, and I have not seen a single store in the one or two rest areas on it.

They're building a new one with a Taste NY store. Construction hasn't started yet.

That's not what the press release says...

https://www.dot.ny.gov/news/press-releases/2016/2016-03-22

Quote
The Taste NY Long Island Welcome Center will inform visitors of additional locations to purchase regionally-produced goods and help to promote Long Island towns, villages and events.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 22, 2016, 07:42:13 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!

Correct.  But for convenience, the service plazas are IMO best, and in many states they have gotten nice renovations in recent years (such as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut).

Wish they were allowed by the feds on "free" freeways, as they are in Quebec and especially Ontario - and in many EU nations.

If they aren't allowed, then how the heck is NYSDOT putting in rest areas with stores on the LIE and I-90 east of Albany?

I travel the LIE a lot, and I have not seen a single store in the one or two rest areas on it.

They're building a new one with a Taste NY store. Construction hasn't started yet.

That's not what the press release says...

https://www.dot.ny.gov/news/press-releases/2016/2016-03-22

Quote
The Taste NY Long Island Welcome Center will inform visitors of additional locations to purchase regionally-produced goods and help to promote Long Island towns, villages and events.

The plans, posted April 1 (no joke), say otherwise. Retail counter and prep kitchen (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=11646&p_is_digital=Y).

The I-90 one in Schodack has a clearly-marked sales and retail area on page 74 (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=12321&p_is_digital=Y).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on June 22, 2016, 08:57:29 PM
If you've seen service area pricing, you're paying a bigger penalty by eating on the Turnpike!

Correct.  But for convenience, the service plazas are IMO best, and in many states they have gotten nice renovations in recent years (such as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut).

Wish they were allowed by the feds on "free" freeways, as they are in Quebec and especially Ontario - and in many EU nations.

If they aren't allowed, then how the heck is NYSDOT putting in rest areas with stores on the LIE and I-90 east of Albany?

I travel the LIE a lot, and I have not seen a single store in the one or two rest areas on it.

They're building a new one with a Taste NY store. Construction hasn't started yet.

And that would be why. Do you know which rest area it will be in?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on June 22, 2016, 11:01:15 PM
They're converting the eastbound parking area.  I believe the westbound one will be closing, but don't quote me on that, it's just something I remember seeing in one of the many, many articles that have sprung up on the subject in recent weeks.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CobaltYoshi27 on June 23, 2016, 12:21:30 AM
They're converting the eastbound parking area.  I believe the westbound one will be closing, but don't quote me on that, it's just something I remember seeing in one of the many, many articles that have sprung up on the subject in recent weeks.

Great. The exit I live by. :/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 23, 2016, 07:11:13 AM
The plans, posted April 1 (no joke), say otherwise. Retail counter and prep kitchen (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=11646&p_is_digital=Y).

What page?  This thing is 178 pages long and loads very slowly.

Quote
The I-90 one in Schodack has a clearly-marked sales and retail area on page 74 (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=12321&p_is_digital=Y).

I see "Sales" on that page, but it's not really telling me anything, and there's nothing going on in there that's referring to anything that they are selling.  The best I see is some sort of 'Prep' area and what may look like 2 fountain soda machines, but I can't tell for sure what they are doing there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on June 23, 2016, 09:02:26 AM
The welcome center on I-81N has a taste NY section with a variety of items for self-service checkout.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on June 23, 2016, 10:31:03 AM
Both the one on I-495 and the one on I-90 are to be similar to the I-81 one and the new ones on the Thruway and Taconic.  I-90 is to be a NY welcome center.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 26, 2016, 08:19:29 PM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 26, 2016, 09:05:31 PM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.

AFAIK, all of them.  My EZPASS from VA does get them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on June 26, 2016, 10:12:18 PM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Yes.  The PA Turnpike gives the E-Z Pass discount to all tag holders; regardless of what agency issued the tag.  Even with the discount, it's painful to use though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on June 26, 2016, 10:15:44 PM
It's no more painful than what the MTA or Port Authority charges. PTC will get less from me in one trip than PANYNJ would for one crossing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 08, 2016, 11:22:37 AM
It's no more painful than what the MTA or Port Authority charges. PTC will get less from me in one trip than PANYNJ would for one crossing.

Though at some point in the fairly near future, everyone will be paying the ETC rate (or an upcharge for no transponder) on the Pennsylvania Turnpike system.  I would not be surprised at all to see the PTC decide to implement time-of-day tolling on various parts of the network, perhaps especially around Philadelphia - more to increase revenue than to manage traffic, though it would presumably be "sold" as a traffic management effort.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 08, 2016, 01:17:36 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if the toll by plate rate is the current cash rate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on July 08, 2016, 03:53:35 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if the toll by plate rate is the current cash rate.

That's what it is at the new Delaware River "plaza". Of course, who knows what they'll do on the ticket system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mariethefoxy on July 09, 2016, 11:40:32 PM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Yes.  The PA Turnpike gives the E-Z Pass discount to all tag holders; regardless of what agency issued the tag.  Even with the discount, it's painful to use though.

Tell me about it, costed me near $30 round trip on my trip to Pittsburgh, going there i entered in at Carlisle and going home I exited at Bedford/I-99. The PA Turnpike is one of the most expensive toll roads in the area, without any favors (since I have an TBTA EZPass) the Jersey Turnpike is like 9 bucks from Exit 10 to 1. I shudder to think what the PA Turnpike is gunna cost if they try any wierd time of day tolling.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 09, 2016, 11:59:46 PM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Yes.  The PA Turnpike gives the E-Z Pass discount to all tag holders; regardless of what agency issued the tag.  Even with the discount, it's painful to use though.

Tell me about it, costed me near $30 round trip on my trip to Pittsburgh, going there i entered in at Carlisle and going home I exited at Bedford/I-99. The PA Turnpike is one of the most expensive toll roads in the area, without any favors (since I have an TBTA EZPass) the Jersey Turnpike is like 9 bucks from Exit 10 to 1. I shudder to think what the PA Turnpike is gunna cost if they try any wierd time of day tolling.

To be fair, you travelled about 270 miles on the PA Turnpike, and about 95 miles on the NJ Turnpike. 

Overall, the PA Turnpike is more expensive per mile, but you also travelled a lot more miles on that road, so the costs are relatively in line with your distance.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Sykotyk on July 10, 2016, 01:38:40 AM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Yes.  The PA Turnpike gives the E-Z Pass discount to all tag holders; regardless of what agency issued the tag.  Even with the discount, it's painful to use though.

Tell me about it, costed me near $30 round trip on my trip to Pittsburgh, going there i entered in at Carlisle and going home I exited at Bedford/I-99. The PA Turnpike is one of the most expensive toll roads in the area, without any favors (since I have an TBTA EZPass) the Jersey Turnpike is like 9 bucks from Exit 10 to 1. I shudder to think what the PA Turnpike is gunna cost if they try any wierd time of day tolling.

To be fair, you travelled about 270 miles on the PA Turnpike, and about 95 miles on the NJ Turnpike. 

Overall, the PA Turnpike is more expensive per mile, but you also travelled a lot more miles on that road, so the costs are relatively in line with your distance.


PA does have some decent shunpiking routes now.

Ohio (I-76/I-80 interchange) to Cranberry (I-79) is free westbound. Eastbound, a good shunpike is I-80 to I-79 (or I-80 to I-376 to US422 to I-79 OR I-80 to I-680 to US422 to I-79). Though US 422 is more because I live near it and use it and don't consider it a bad route. 80/79 is 31 miles extra, 80/376/422 is 20 miles extra, and 80/680/422/79 is 13 miles extra.

Cranberry (I-79) to Monroeville (I-376) is an obvious easy one, I-79 to I-376. This is only a good shunpike if you're avoiding rush hour. Otherwise downtown and the Squirrel Hill Tunnel can really bug you.

For Pittsburgh (I-376) to Bedford (or Breezewood), would be US22 to I-99. To Breezewood, just follow to US30 east. It's only 16 miles longer to Breezewood. US 22 has some lights, especially east of I-76, though they've done a great job reducing left turns by creating quasi-Jersey Lefts with turnarounds. Blairsville and Ebensburg is a nuisance as both bypasses have lights, despite appearing to freeway bypasses with interchanges at both ends of the towns. I-99 becomes US220 and has a full interchange with US30, but there's a couple of lights just east of Bedford. But, it's free than taking the turnpike to Breezewood.

If you're going Pittsburgh to Harrisburg, the best shunpike is US22 to I-99 to US322. Again, the US22 complaint, and the speed trap/breezewood in Duncannon on US322 is a bit of a pain. Especially to remember it. But, also the two lane (no lights at all) east of State College can be a pain as it has heavy traffic, low speed limit, and a ton of truck traffic. This is only 24 miles longer than the turnpike between Pittsburgh (I-376) and I-283/PA283 east of Harrisburg.

Harrisburg itself has an easy shunpike, I-81 in Carlisle to either I-83 to I-283 or PA581 to I-83 to I-283.

Harrisburg to Philadelphia is relatively good except the god awful stretch east of Lancaster. But, the shunpike is PA283 to Lancaster to US30 to US202 to I-76 just south of the US 422 exit on the turnpike. This is only 1 mile longer. But, you get to deal with the Lancaster-to-Gap(PA41) stretch that can be a PITA when there's heavy traffic. Which seems to be always. But, 283 and a stretch of 30 are freeway and 202 is all freeway.

The only real tough spot to shunpike is from I-476 to New Jersey. Because to stick to freeway means I-76 into Philly to I-676 to I-95 toward Trenton. Either take the loop around, or cut through town. But, it puts you into New Jersey without a toll.

If you're heading somewhere on the NJTP from 7A or south, the better route is to just go through Philadelphia on I-76 and onto I-295.

From Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, it's 25 miles longer to shunpike, you hit some lights on 22 from Monroeville to US119 and a few more in Ebensburg, a 2-lane light-less stretch east of State College, the clusterf*ck through Amish Country east of Lancaster toward Gap (I'm going to guess about 20 lights total), and then freeway all the way to I-76 again after it departs the Turnpike.

Your EZ+Pass toll is $23, the cash toll is $33. And it takes you about an hour longer and about a gallon of gas more to avoid paying even $23. So, $20 for an hour of your time, basically (factoring out the additional gas).

Every time I head east to New Jersey, this would be the way I go if taking I-80 into New Jersey or NYC isn't an option.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 10, 2016, 06:44:07 AM
Harrisburg to Philadelphia is relatively good except the god awful stretch east of Lancaster. But, the shunpike is PA283 to Lancaster to US30 to US202 to I-76 just south of the US 422 exit on the turnpike. This is only 1 mile longer. But, you get to deal with the Lancaster-to-Gap(PA41) stretch that can be a PITA when there's heavy traffic. Which seems to be always. But, 283 and a stretch of 30 are freeway and 202 is all freeway.

On a side note, the widening of US 202 (http://www.us202-300.com/overview.cfm) to 6 lanes out to US 30 should be completed by the end of the year.  However, there are plans to reconstruct the  US 30 freeway (http://www.dailylocal.com/article/DL/20150928/NEWS/150929725) in the near future.

Also I have used PA 340 to bypass the Gap area.  PA 340 does not have that much traffic between Intercourse and PA 82 (just north of Coatesville.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 10, 2016, 06:39:24 PM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Yes.  The PA Turnpike gives the E-Z Pass discount to all tag holders; regardless of what agency issued the tag.  Even with the discount, it's painful to use though.

Tell me about it, costed me near $30 round trip on my trip to Pittsburgh, going there i entered in at Carlisle and going home I exited at Bedford/I-99. The PA Turnpike is one of the most expensive toll roads in the area, without any favors (since I have an TBTA EZPass) the Jersey Turnpike is like 9 bucks from Exit 10 to 1. I shudder to think what the PA Turnpike is gunna cost if they try any wierd time of day tolling.

To be fair, you travelled about 270 miles on the PA Turnpike, and about 95 miles on the NJ Turnpike. 

Overall, the PA Turnpike is more expensive per mile, but you also travelled a lot more miles on that road, so the costs are relatively in line with your distance.

Meanwhile, to get that nine buck charge on the Thruway, you'd have to drive 200 miles!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on July 10, 2016, 06:54:32 PM
Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Yes.  The PA Turnpike gives the E-Z Pass discount to all tag holders; regardless of what agency issued the tag.  Even with the discount, it's painful to use though.

Tell me about it, costed me near $30 round trip on my trip to Pittsburgh, going there i entered in at Carlisle and going home I exited at Bedford/I-99. The PA Turnpike is one of the most expensive toll roads in the area, without any favors (since I have an TBTA EZPass) the Jersey Turnpike is like 9 bucks from Exit 10 to 1. I shudder to think what the PA Turnpike is gunna cost if they try any wierd time of day tolling.

To be fair, you travelled about 270 miles on the PA Turnpike, and about 95 miles on the NJ Turnpike. 

Overall, the PA Turnpike is more expensive per mile, but you also travelled a lot more miles on that road, so the costs are relatively in line with your distance.

Meanwhile, to get that nine buck charge on the Thruway, you'd have to drive 200 miles!

About right. The toll from 24 to 48A is roughly $11 and that's ~250 miles.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 10, 2016, 09:16:23 PM
Ohio (I-76/I-80 interchange) to Cranberry (I-79) is free westbound.

Only in PA is it free.  Still have to pay a toll in Ohio.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on July 11, 2016, 12:55:35 AM
Harrisburg to Philadelphia is relatively good except the god awful stretch east of Lancaster. But, the shunpike is PA283 to Lancaster to US30 to US202 to I-76 just south of the US 422 exit on the turnpike. This is only 1 mile longer. But, you get to deal with the Lancaster-to-Gap(PA41) stretch that can be a PITA when there's heavy traffic. Which seems to be always. But, 283 and a stretch of 30 are freeway and 202 is all freeway.

On a side note, the widening of US 202 (http://www.us202-300.com/overview.cfm) to 6 lanes out to US 30 should be completed by the end of the year.  However, there are plans to reconstruct the  US 30 freeway (http://www.dailylocal.com/article/DL/20150928/NEWS/150929725) in the near future.

Also I have used PA 340 to bypass the Gap area.  PA 340 does not have that much traffic between Intercourse and PA 82 (just north of Coatesville.)
I just did this stretch of 30 EB today, coming back to NJ.  The project at Gap to separate the EB and WB lanes of 30 is in full swing, with new signals going up and the new WB roadway looking fairly close to completion, seen here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.993702,-76.0251194,17z/data=!3m1!1e3?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.993702,-76.0251194,17z/data=!3m1!1e3?force=lite)

I'm glad they're finally looking at improvements on the Coatesville/Downingtown bypass segment - I remember when they built the Exton bypass section to 202.  Maybe someday in my lifetime they'll link this to the Lancaster bypass (and bypass the 'bypass' of York), making my shunpiking even better.  I'm gonna have to give 340 a shot again - it's been a long time.

On the way out via the PA Turnpike (back on topic), I noticed they have the 70 speed limit signs as far east as the Willow Grove area now.  I'm a little surprised with this - I thought for sure they wouldn't go to 70 until they were west of Valley Forge. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on July 11, 2016, 12:24:03 PM
Harrisburg to Philadelphia is relatively good except the god awful stretch east of Lancaster. But, the shunpike is PA283 to Lancaster to US30 to US202 to I-76 just south of the US 422 exit on the turnpike. This is only 1 mile longer. But, you get to deal with the Lancaster-to-Gap(PA41) stretch that can be a PITA when there's heavy traffic. Which seems to be always. But, 283 and a stretch of 30 are freeway and 202 is all freeway.

On a side note, the widening of US 202 (http://www.us202-300.com/overview.cfm) to 6 lanes out to US 30 should be completed by the end of the year.  However, there are plans to reconstruct the  US 30 freeway (http://www.dailylocal.com/article/DL/20150928/NEWS/150929725) in the near future.

Also I have used PA 340 to bypass the Gap area.  PA 340 does not have that much traffic between Intercourse and PA 82 (just north of Coatesville.)
I just did this stretch of 30 EB today, coming back to NJ.  The project at Gap to separate the EB and WB lanes of 30 is in full swing, with new signals going up and the new WB roadway looking fairly close to completion, seen here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.993702,-76.0251194,17z/data=!3m1!1e3?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.993702,-76.0251194,17z/data=!3m1!1e3?force=lite)

I'm glad they're finally looking at improvements on the Coatesville/Downingtown bypass segment - I remember when they built the Exton bypass section to 202.  Maybe someday in my lifetime they'll link this to the Lancaster bypass (and bypass the 'bypass' of York), making my shunpiking even better.  I'm gonna have to give 340 a shot again - it's been a long time.

On the way out via the PA Turnpike (back on topic), I noticed they have the 70 speed limit signs as far east as the Willow Grove area now.  I'm a little surprised with this - I thought for sure they wouldn't go to 70 until they were west of Valley Forge. 
70 MPH even goes out to Bensalem, but no further due to construction and the new mainline toll barrier immediately to the east of there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 11, 2016, 01:14:20 PM
Didn't the PTC just elect to change all their 65 mph zones to 70 mph instead of having them co-exist the way PennDOT did?

Quick question that I know has been answered here before: does PTC give the E-ZPass discount to all tags, or just to Pennsylvania tags? I'm taking a little road trip later this week and I'd like to know how many limbs I'll have to sell to pay their outrageous tolls.
Yes.  The PA Turnpike gives the E-Z Pass discount to all tag holders; regardless of what agency issued the tag.  Even with the discount, it's painful to use though.

Tell me about it, costed me near $30 round trip on my trip to Pittsburgh, going there i entered in at Carlisle and going home I exited at Bedford/I-99. The PA Turnpike is one of the most expensive toll roads in the area, without any favors (since I have an TBTA EZPass) the Jersey Turnpike is like 9 bucks from Exit 10 to 1. I shudder to think what the PA Turnpike is gunna cost if they try any wierd time of day tolling.

To be fair, you travelled about 270 miles on the PA Turnpike, and about 95 miles on the NJ Turnpike. 

Overall, the PA Turnpike is more expensive per mile, but you also travelled a lot more miles on that road, so the costs are relatively in line with your distance.

Meanwhile, to get that nine buck charge on the Thruway, you'd have to drive 200 miles!

About right. The toll from 24 to 48A is roughly $11 and that's ~250 miles.
I was using the $9.07 toll rate for the 202 mile journey from I-87 to I-490 that I take MANY times per year for every single family gathering.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 11, 2016, 04:01:18 PM
Didn't the PTC just elect to change all their 65 mph zones to 70 mph instead of having them co-exist the way PennDOT did?

Yes. The signs started going up the day after the PTC press release on 2 May 2016. Here's a link to the press release (which also lists the small areas which remain at 55 mph):

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160502143015.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 11, 2016, 09:11:01 PM
Didn't the PTC just elect to change all their 65 mph zones to 70 mph instead of having them co-exist the way PennDOT did?

Yes. The signs started going up the day after the PTC press release on 2 May 2016. Here's a link to the press release (which also lists the small areas which remain at 55 mph):

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160502143015.htm


There's still one 65 MPH sign - westbound at the US 1 interchange (a temporary sign at the end of the construction zone).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on July 12, 2016, 10:25:44 AM
Didn't the PTC just elect to change all their 65 mph zones to 70 mph instead of having them co-exist the way PennDOT did?

Yes. The signs started going up the day after the PTC press release on 2 May 2016. Here's a link to the press release (which also lists the small areas which remain at 55 mph):

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160502143015.htm


There's still one 65 MPH sign - westbound at the US 1 interchange (a temporary sign at the end of the construction zone).
I noticed that too on my way WB on Friday.  I thought the first 70 MPH sign I encountered was more toward Willow Grove but I might have missed one.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 12, 2016, 10:39:55 AM
From the people of the NJ Turnpike video, I present to you the PA Turnpike. Not sure what it's dated but it looks like around 1941. Now learn about pavement.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 12, 2016, 09:00:05 PM
Didn't the PTC just elect to change all their 65 mph zones to 70 mph instead of having them co-exist the way PennDOT did?

Yes. The signs started going up the day after the PTC press release on 2 May 2016. Here's a link to the press release (which also lists the small areas which remain at 55 mph):

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160502143015.htm


There's still one 65 MPH sign - westbound at the US 1 interchange (a temporary sign at the end of the construction zone).
I noticed that too on my way WB on Friday.  I thought the first 70 MPH sign I encountered was more toward Willow Grove but I might have missed one.


I think there was a 70 MPH sign either before after the curve west of the US 1 exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on July 15, 2016, 02:35:14 PM
Even after the widening, there's still a lot of unused pavement space (https://goo.gl/maps/2zJiBzzHv2B2) on the Northeast Extension at the Mid-County Interchange. Does anyone know what it is or was supposed to be used for?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on July 15, 2016, 04:25:30 PM
Even after the widening, there's still a lot of unused pavement space (https://goo.gl/maps/2zJiBzzHv2B2) on the Northeast Extension at the Mid-County Interchange. Does anyone know what it is or was supposed to be used for?
the imagery i'm seeing there is from mid-construction. it's currently 3 lanes in each direction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on July 16, 2016, 02:29:53 PM
Even after the widening, there's still a lot of unused pavement space (https://goo.gl/maps/2zJiBzzHv2B2) on the Northeast Extension at the Mid-County Interchange. Does anyone know what it is or was supposed to be used for?
the imagery i'm seeing there is from mid-construction. it's currently 3 lanes in each direction.

Turn on 3D. That shows it finished in that section, and you can see that not only is that unused space still there, but it seems like they added even more.
Title: 2017 Toll Increase
Post by: Flyer78 on July 20, 2016, 10:26:05 AM
Tolls to rise six percent toll increase on the way in 2017.

Quote
“Revenues from this increase will fund a newly approved, 10-year spending plan which invests more than $5.77 billion in our system in the coming decade – a large part of which will support ongoing total reconstruction and widening projects.”

Revenues from the 2017 increase will also allow the PTC to fund its annual requirement to support off-Turnpike ground-transportation enhancements. Since 2007, the PTC has been providing supplemental funding to the commonwealth that is invested by PennDOT into non-tolled highways and public-transportation providers. Starting in Fiscal Year 2015, PTC payments have funded transit exclusively.


https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160719153742.htm


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 20, 2016, 11:56:12 AM
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160719153742.htm

Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike to raise tolls 9th year in a row - Commission increases fees 6 percent, reviews all construction projects (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/07/19/Turnpike-commission-increases-tolls-6-percent-reviews-all-construction-projects/stories/201607190174)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission’s chairman says the agency isn’t in financial trouble today but it needs to take steps to avoid problems in the future.

Quote
That’s why the commission Tuesday voted to increase tolls for the ninth year in a row, review all construction projects to make sure the agency can afford them and provide close scrutiny on all hirings. The 6 percent toll hike will raise the cost of a trip from Ohio to New Jersey from $48.90 to $51.85 and from $34.93 to $37 for E-ZPass users, who received a toll break several years ago to encourage more motorists to use the cashless system.

Quote
“Right now, I can say no, we’re not in financial trouble,”  said commission Chairman Sean Logan of Monroeville. “I want to make sure that doesn’t become a yes in two or five or 10 years.”

Quote
Part of the reason for the toll increase is the turnpike’s obligation to pay PennDOT $450 million a year under a 2007 state law. Initially that money was for general PennDOT expenses, but two years ago the obligation was changed to earmark the money for public transit only and cut the payment after 2023 to $50 million a year.

Quote
The 2007 law, Act 44, envisioned a stream of revenue from higher turnpike tolls and new tolls on Interstate 80 flowing from the commission to PennDOT. Despite the Federal Highway Administration's rejection of I-80 tolls that spring, the turnpike still is required to pay PennDOT $450 million per year and to raise tolls as necessary to meet all of its funding obligations.

Quote
To meet those obligations now, the turnpike has been borrowing. Mr. Logan said the commission collects about $1 billion a year in tolls, has debt payments of about $600 million annually and operating expenses of about $380 million a year, a figure that doesn’t include road construction and maintenance.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 20, 2016, 09:44:59 PM
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160719153742.htm

Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike to raise tolls 9th year in a row - Commission increases fees 6 percent, reviews all construction projects (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/07/19/Turnpike-commission-increases-tolls-6-percent-reviews-all-construction-projects/stories/201607190174)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission’s chairman says the agency isn’t in financial trouble today but it needs to take steps to avoid problems in the future.

Quote
That’s why the commission Tuesday voted to increase tolls for the ninth year in a row, review all construction projects to make sure the agency can afford them and provide close scrutiny on all hirings. The 6 percent toll hike will raise the cost of a trip from Ohio to New Jersey from $48.90 to $51.85 and from $34.93 to $37 for E-ZPass users, who received a toll break several years ago to encourage more motorists to use the cashless system.

Quote
“Right now, I can say no, we’re not in financial trouble,”  said commission Chairman Sean Logan of Monroeville. “I want to make sure that doesn’t become a yes in two or five or 10 years.”

Quote
Part of the reason for the toll increase is the turnpike’s obligation to pay PennDOT $450 million a year under a 2007 state law. Initially that money was for general PennDOT expenses, but two years ago the obligation was changed to earmark the money for public transit only and cut the payment after 2023 to $50 million a year.

Quote
The 2007 law, Act 44, envisioned a stream of revenue from higher turnpike tolls and new tolls on Interstate 80 flowing from the commission to PennDOT. Despite the Federal Highway Administration's rejection of I-80 tolls that spring, the turnpike still is required to pay PennDOT $450 million per year and to raise tolls as necessary to meet all of its funding obligations.

Quote
To meet those obligations now, the turnpike has been borrowing. Mr. Logan said the commission collects about $1 billion a year in tolls, has debt payments of about $600 million annually and operating expenses of about $380 million a year, a figure that doesn’t include road construction and maintenance.
They are insane. This is insane. $52 for a car to go 300 miles and change. The NJ Turnpike Authority is able to get a lot more work done for a lot less per mile.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on July 20, 2016, 09:52:52 PM
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20160719153742.htm

Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike to raise tolls 9th year in a row - Commission increases fees 6 percent, reviews all construction projects (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/07/19/Turnpike-commission-increases-tolls-6-percent-reviews-all-construction-projects/stories/201607190174)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission’s chairman says the agency isn’t in financial trouble today but it needs to take steps to avoid problems in the future.

Quote
That’s why the commission Tuesday voted to increase tolls for the ninth year in a row, review all construction projects to make sure the agency can afford them and provide close scrutiny on all hirings. The 6 percent toll hike will raise the cost of a trip from Ohio to New Jersey from $48.90 to $51.85 and from $34.93 to $37 for E-ZPass users, who received a toll break several years ago to encourage more motorists to use the cashless system.

Quote
“Right now, I can say no, we’re not in financial trouble,”  said commission Chairman Sean Logan of Monroeville. “I want to make sure that doesn’t become a yes in two or five or 10 years.”

Quote
Part of the reason for the toll increase is the turnpike’s obligation to pay PennDOT $450 million a year under a 2007 state law. Initially that money was for general PennDOT expenses, but two years ago the obligation was changed to earmark the money for public transit only and cut the payment after 2023 to $50 million a year.

Quote
The 2007 law, Act 44, envisioned a stream of revenue from higher turnpike tolls and new tolls on Interstate 80 flowing from the commission to PennDOT. Despite the Federal Highway Administration's rejection of I-80 tolls that spring, the turnpike still is required to pay PennDOT $450 million per year and to raise tolls as necessary to meet all of its funding obligations.

Quote
To meet those obligations now, the turnpike has been borrowing. Mr. Logan said the commission collects about $1 billion a year in tolls, has debt payments of about $600 million annually and operating expenses of about $380 million a year, a figure that doesn’t include road construction and maintenance.
They are insane. This is insane. $52 for a car to go 300 miles and change. The NJ Turnpike Authority is able to get a lot more work done for a lot less per mile.

Yeah, but NJTA doesn't have Act 44 to deal with. Half of the toll revenue goes just to that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 20, 2016, 11:09:02 PM
They are insane. This is insane. $52 for a car to go 300 miles and change. The NJ Turnpike Authority is able to get a lot more work done for a lot less per mile.

Currently about $35 (with E-ZPass) for a car to go from Ohio to New Jersey (nearly 357 miles), works out to about 10¢ a mile.

About the same (also with E-ZPass) the other direction. 

Now I can see that PTC probably has higher per-mile operating costs than NJTA because of the higher elevations of the E-W Mainline west of Carlisle, and the N.E. Extension north of  Lehigh Valley, plus the tunnels.

Much (all?) of the funding of Act 44 payments to PennDOT have been funded by the PTC selling bonds (http://www.empowerpa.org/pennsylvania-turnpike-passes-milestone-now-7-billion-in-debt/) - an activity that drove New York City to the edge of bankruptcy  in  the 1970's.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 20, 2016, 11:43:45 PM
They are insane. This is insane. $52 for a car to go 300 miles and change. The NJ Turnpike Authority is able to get a lot more work done for a lot less per mile.

Currently about $35 (with E-ZPass) for a car to go from Ohio to New Jersey (nearly 357 miles), works out to about 10¢ a mile.

About the same (also with E-ZPass) the other direction. 

Now I can see that PTC probably has higher per-mile operating costs than NJTA because of the higher elevations of the E-W Mainline west of Carlisle, and the N.E. Extension north of  Lehigh Valley, plus the tunnels.

Much (all?) of the funding of Act 44 payments to PennDOT have been funded by the PTC selling bonds (http://www.empowerpa.org/pennsylvania-turnpike-passes-milestone-now-7-billion-in-debt/) - an activity that drove New York City to the edge of bankruptcy  in  the 1970.
It's a bunch of trouble. Massachusetts dissolved their toll agency and I can see PA having to go the same route.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 21, 2016, 08:48:34 PM
It's a bunch of trouble. Massachusetts dissolved their toll agency and I can see PA having to go the same route.

In theory, having an independent toll agency means a buffer (in the form of the agency's board of directors) between the agency and state elected officials (say, ummm, like those in the Pennsylvania legislature) that want to raid the toll agency's coffers for money because they do not want to raise taxes (especially on motor fuels) to collect - and to some extent to isolate the toll agency from politics. 

In the case of the  Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, the board has done none of those things, and has hampered the PTC's efforts to build legitimate (and needed) highway projects (I-95/I-276 interchange in Bristol Township or added tube(s) or bypass of the run-down Allegheny Mountain Tunnel, anyone?).

So in the case of Pennsylvania, yes, getting rid of the PTC and making it a division of PennDOT might just result in a better Turnpike (I think transparency might be better as a part of the DOT).

Compare and contrast with  NJTA, which does give a substantial sum  of money annually to NJDOT (I do not remember how much), but still charges reasonable per-mile tolls and generally keeps the roads under its jurisdiction in decent shape (my gripes are that some of the bridge decks on the New Jersey Turnpike, while in apparently good condition, have expansion joints that make for a very bumpy  ride (especially north of Exit 13); and the lack of reassurance assemblies and signs showing the number of miles to several control cities, northbound and southbound).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 21, 2016, 09:18:52 PM
I've also noticed that the original section from 1940 has very narrow lanes. That might be the result of the PTC doing nothing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 21, 2016, 09:20:41 PM
I've also noticed that the original section from 1940 has very narrow lanes. That might be the result of the PTC doing nothing.

Where sections of the Turnpike have been reconstructed, I believe the lanes have been made wider as part of the reconstruction process.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 22, 2016, 12:07:24 AM
It's a bunch of trouble. Massachusetts dissolved their toll agency and I can see PA having to go the same route.

In theory, having an independent toll agency means a buffer (in the form of the agency's board of directors) between the agency and state elected officials (say, ummm, like those in the Pennsylvania legislature) that want to raid the toll agency's coffers for money because they do not want to raise taxes (especially on motor fuels) - and to some extent to isolate the  toll agency from politics. 

In the case of the  Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, the board has done none of those things, and has hampered the PTC's efforts to build legitimate (and needed) highway projects (I-95/I-276 interchange in Bristol Township or added tube(s) or bypass of the run-down Allegheny Mountain Tunnel, anyone?).

So in the case of Pennsylvania, yes, getting rid of the PTC and making it a division of PennDOT might just result in a better Turnpike (I think transparency might be better as a part of the DOT).

Compare and contrast with  NJTA, which does give a substantial sum  of money annually to NJDOT (I do not remember how much), but still charges reasonable per-mile tolls and generally keeps the roads under its jurisdiction in decent shape (my gripes are that some of the bridge decks on the New Jersey Turnpike, while in apparently good condition, have expansion joints that make for a very bumpy  ride (especially north of Exit 13); and the lack of reassurance assemblies and signs showing the number of miles to several control cities, northbound and southbound).
NJTA does not subsidize NJDOT. They only contribute money to projects that benefit the Turnpike (for example, the Pulaski Skyway reconstruction).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2016, 12:37:08 AM
NJTA does not subsidize NJDOT. They only contribute money to projects that benefit the Turnpike (for example, the Pulaski Skyway reconstruction).

I read someplace that there was some sort of systematic diversion of revenue to NJDOT, but I also know that you  know better than someplace.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2016, 12:39:37 AM
KDKA NewsRadio 1020: Pa. Auditor General To Audit Turnpike Commission (http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/07/21/pa-auditor-general-to-audit-turnpike-commission/)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission approved a six percent toll increase earlier this week, partly to keep itself out of future financial trouble.

Quote
The toll increases, which will take effect next year, are to help cover debt payments that currently take up about a third of the Turnpike Commission’s yearly budget.

Quote
This will be the ninth year in a row the rates go up, partly to pay PennDOT for road maintenance by way of a 2007 law that requires them to do so.

Quote
Pennsylvania Auditor General Eugene DePasquale on Thursday told KDKA Radio’s James Garrity he will audit the Turnpike Commission.

EDIT: A more detailed version of this story in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette can be found here (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/07/21/Auditor-General-agrees-Pennsylvania-Turnpike-debt-is-unsustainable/stories/201607200209).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 22, 2016, 08:19:59 AM
NJTA does not subsidize NJDOT. They only contribute money to projects that benefit the Turnpike (for example, the Pulaski Skyway reconstruction).

I read someplace that there was some sort of systematic diversion of revenue to NJDOT, but I also know that you  know better than someplace.

Heh.  Reminds me of the interstate mileage of the Thruway being used by NYSDOT and FHWA to determine the old Interstate Maintenance funding (and any other funding where it was a factor)...and then NYSDOT keeping it without giving any to the Thruway.  Worked pretty well; too bad Interstate Maintenance went the way of the dodo with MAP-21 (absorbed into National Highway Performance Program funding).

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2016, 10:16:30 AM
The NJTA HEAVILY subsidizes NJDOT, to the tune of over $300 million a year.  Is that money going to the Puluski Skyway project?  Maybe....but the NJTA Financials don't specify that. They simply show it as a cash outflow from the NJTA to NJDOT.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2016, 12:31:02 PM
The NJTA HEAVILY subsidizes NJDOT, to the tune of over $300 million a year.  Is that money going to the Puluski Skyway project?  Maybe....but the NJTA Financials don't specify that. They simply show it as a cash outflow from the NJTA to NJDOT.

As a (sometime) NJTA patron, I don't mind if some of the tolls I pay are going to projects that improve the network connectivity of the Turnpike (especially) and the Garden State Parkway.  If the Turnpike is subsidizing the Pulaski Skyway reconstruction to some extent, well, I think that is a good use of (some) Turnpike money (though as I have said before, I would really prefer that the Skyway be turned-over to the NJTA to toll, maintain and operate).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2016, 12:33:11 PM
The NJTA HEAVILY subsidizes NJDOT, to the tune of over $300 million a year.  Is that money going to the Puluski Skyway project?  Maybe....but the NJTA Financials don't specify that. They simply show it as a cash outflow from the NJTA to NJDOT.

But that $300 million is less than the Act 44/Act 89 that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is diverting to PennDOT - and beyond that, the Act 44/Act 89 payments are bleeding the PTC white, while the money that the New Jersey Turnpike Authority sends to NJDOT does not seem to impair the NJTA from getting its work done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2016, 01:03:03 PM
The NJTA HEAVILY subsidizes NJDOT, to the tune of over $300 million a year.  Is that money going to the Puluski Skyway project?  Maybe....but the NJTA Financials don't specify that. They simply show it as a cash outflow from the NJTA to NJDOT.

But that $300 million is less than the Act 44/Act 89 that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is diverting to PennDOT - and beyond that, the Act 44/Act 89 are bleeding the PTC white, while the money that the New Jersey Turnpike Authority sends to NJDOT does not seem to impair the NJTA from getting its work done.

There's a noticeable degrading of the Turnpike from how it used to be.  You'll find some asphalt rutting going on and other maintenance that isn't as kept up on as it used to be.   It's still superior to many other roads, but the slight deferring of maintenance is a bit noticeable to frequent users in areas that haven't been touched for a while (especially south of the 6-9 widening project).

It also prevents major projects that could've been funded today from getting constructed.  They've invested heavily into their 2 roads over the past decade, and due to a $200 million savings in the 6-9 widening they actually bumped up some other capital projects.  But that doesn't mean other projects haven't been deferred.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2016, 03:28:59 PM
There's a noticeable degrading of the Turnpike from how it used to be.  You'll find some asphalt rutting going on and other maintenance that isn't as kept up on as it used to be.   It's still superior to many other roads, but the slight deferring of maintenance is a bit noticeable to frequent users in areas that haven't been touched for a while (especially south of the 6-9 widening project).

It also prevents major projects that could've been funded today from getting constructed.  They've invested heavily into their 2 roads over the past decade, and due to a $200 million savings in the 6-9 widening they actually bumped up some other capital projects.  But that doesn't mean other projects haven't been deferred.

My  big gripe with Turnpike maintenance, as I suggested elsewhere, is the rough ride over many (most?) of the expansion joints of the elevated sections of the road, especially north  of Exit 13.   Otherwise, I think it is in  pretty decent  condition.

Is as perfectly maintained as the short (but immaculate) I-95 across New Hampshire?  Probably not.  The 14 or 15 miles of the New Hampshire Turnpike are as close to perfection as I have seen on any part of I-95, be it tolled or "free."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2016, 03:30:24 PM
NJTA does not subsidize NJDOT. They only contribute money to projects that benefit the Turnpike (for example, the Pulaski Skyway reconstruction).

I read someplace that there was some sort of systematic diversion of revenue to NJDOT, but I also know that you  know better than someplace.

Heh.  Reminds me of the interstate mileage of the Thruway being used by NYSDOT and FHWA to determine the old Interstate Maintenance funding (and any other funding where it was a factor)...and then NYSDOT keeping it without giving any to the Thruway.  Worked pretty well; too bad Interstate Maintenance went the way of the dodo with MAP-21 (absorbed into National Highway Performance Program funding).

(personal opinion expressed)

I believe other states with mileage of roads that were part of the Interstate system but belonged to legacy toll roads did the same thing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 23, 2016, 01:06:46 PM
The NJTA HEAVILY subsidizes NJDOT, to the tune of over $300 million a year.  Is that money going to the Puluski Skyway project?  Maybe....but the NJTA Financials don't specify that. They simply show it as a cash outflow from the NJTA to NJDOT.
Yeah, it's not just a blanket payment. There may be some money tied up in other things like the exchange of the free I-80 section and the free Parkway sections that ended up resulting in certain obligations. That I couldn't swear to or against.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 24, 2016, 07:33:21 AM
So... any, um,  news on the Turnpike that's the actual, you know, TITLE of this thread??
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 25, 2016, 01:56:07 AM
It seems they're repairing the Blue and Kittatinny Mountain Tunnels, as there was contraflow and what seems to be a temporary crossover to the EB lanes. WB lanes were closed.

More widening/repaving has been occurring. They're mostly near Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jpi on July 25, 2016, 04:35:48 PM
Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years :banghead:
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on July 25, 2016, 05:14:47 PM
I'm using US 30. I'm not paying that much.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jpi on July 25, 2016, 06:13:18 PM
You mean your dad is using US 30 :biggrin:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2016, 06:21:15 PM
Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years :banghead:
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html

Newspaper Reporters Gone Wild. The irresponsible reporter took it upon himself to assume 6% increases for a random period of time.

While it's alarmng sounding, I wouldn't put too much faith into the report.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 26, 2016, 10:16:08 AM
Signage update: some new overhead BGS' on olive-green painted pipe gantries are now erected along the PA Turnpike (I-76) between Harrisburg West (I-83) and the Carlisle (US 11) interchanges as part of the ongoing widening and overpass replacement (at Carlisle) projects.  Clearview text is still being used but only for the control cities.  These BGS' were likely fabricated prior to the Feds putting the kibosh on Clearview font usage.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 15, 2016, 09:28:53 AM
Retired Pittsburgh Post-Gazette transportation beat reporter Joe Grata torches Pennsylvania elected officials, PennDOT and PTC for Act 44/Act 89 in this op-ed: Pa. continues its live-for-today tradition with transit funds (http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/letters/2016/08/15/Pa-continues-its-live-for-today-tradition-with-transit-funds/stories/201608110029)

Quote
State lawmakers and ex-Gov. Ed Rendell began feeding off of Pennsylvania Turnpike revenues several years before requiring the agency to pay a $450 million-a-year subsidy for public transit. Those payments have helped drive the turnpike’s debt to an unthinkable $11 billion.

Quote
But the 2007 law that remains responsible for toll increases for nine years in a row – with more ahead – initially required the Turnpike Commission to borrow $2.5 billion and turn the money over to PennDOT to fill funding gaps in its highway-bridge programs: $750 million in fiscal 2007-08; $850 million in 2008-09; and $900 million in 2009-10. This, too, must be repaid for decades to come.

Quote
At the time, lawmakers were looking to avoid increasing Motor License Fund taxes and fees. Along with Mr. Rendell, they assumed the federal government would OK converting I-80 to a toll road. They rushed to “lease”  the east-west interstate to the turnpike in exchange for the $2.5 billion cash advance during a “conversion period.”  Business and residents along the corridor protested and the feds said no to the politicos, but the turnpike’s pockets had already been picked.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 17, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: Turnpike extension might be good for east towns, some residents say (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/08/17/Mon-Fayette-Expressway-projectwould-be-good-for-Monroeville-some-residents-say/stories/201608170154)

Quote
K.R. Channarasappa knows the proposed Mon-Fayette Expressway project from two perspectives.

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Thirty years ago, as an engineer for Mackin Engineering Co., Mr. Channarasappa helped to design the first version of the highway for the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission. Tuesday night, as a trustee for the Sri Venkateswara Temple in Penn Hills, he reviewed the revised plans at a display at Gateway Middle School in Monroeville.

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“On the whole, I think it’s good for the temple,”  said Mr. Channarasappa.

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The proposed $1.6 billion toll road would extend from Jefferson Hills to the Parkway East in Monroeville and have an interchange on Business Route 22 near Monroeville Mall. The new plan calls for a much narrower median and eliminates a wing from Turtle Creek to Pittsburgh because of the high cost and opposition from Pittsburgh officials and Oakland institutions.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 17, 2016, 11:08:01 PM
Philly.com: Will highway project bring prosperity for Norristown? (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20160817_Will_highway_project_mean_road_to_prosperity_for_Norristown_.html)

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Norristown has assets that other towns would envy: Excellent transportation access, proximity to employment centers, the seat of one of the state's wealthiest counties.

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Yet it has not enjoyed the prosperity of its counterparts in Bucks, Chester, and Delaware Counties - Doylestown, West Chester, and Media, respectively - and Norristown has issues that no other town would envy, including high crime, poverty, and property-tax rates.

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But after years of false starts, regional planners think that a major highway-construction project could be just the thing that can get the municipality on the road to recovery.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on August 20, 2016, 08:36:49 AM
Southwest PA is laced with what I call "minipikes" courtesy of the PTC.  Why doesn't the Philly area have any (real or contemplated)?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 20, 2016, 11:36:54 AM
Southwest PA is laced with what I call "minipikes" courtesy of the PTC.  Why doesn't the Philly area have any (real or contemplated)?

ixnay

We've had the Northeast Extension for decades.  They're just catching up! lol

Actually, they have blessed the Philly area with numerous slip ramps to make getting on and off in certain areas easier.  The area is very against building any new highways, so even if another extension was considered, it would have a very hard fight to get approved.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on August 21, 2016, 07:25:58 PM
Southwest PA is laced with what I call "minipikes" courtesy of the PTC.  Why doesn't the Philly area have any (real or contemplated)?

ixnay

We've had the Northeast Extension for decades.  They're just catching up! lol

Actually, they have blessed the Philly area with numerous slip ramps to make getting on and off in certain areas easier.  The area is very against building any new highways, so even if another extension was considered, it would have a very hard fight to get approved.

This area drags its feet with expanding any mode of transportation and it's mostly due to politicians easily bowing to NIMBY pressure.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on August 21, 2016, 09:16:42 PM
Southwest PA is laced with what I call "minipikes" courtesy of the PTC.  Why doesn't the Philly area have any (real or contemplated)?

ixnay

We've had the Northeast Extension for decades.  They're just catching up! lol

Actually, they have blessed the Philly area with numerous slip ramps to make getting on and off in certain areas easier.  The area is very against building any new highways, so even if another extension was considered, it would have a very hard fight to get approved.

This area drags its feet with expanding any mode of transportation and it's mostly due to politicians easily bowing to NIMBY pressure.

US 202 just finished being widened to 6 lanes....and bids are going out to widen US 322 in Delco. to 4 lanes.  I-95 in NE Philly is being widened to 8 lanes plus auxiliary lanes.  The PA Turnpike is widening north and west...so I don't think there is an issue is lack of expansion.  Also...I don't think it's as much NIMBY (though NIMBY always plays a role), but:  a)  property values, and how built up the Philly area is, makes expansion cost prohibitive  b) the infrastructure is so old, more money is spent on updating to current standards.  There is a lot of money going towards the US 30, US 1, and US 422 expressways in addition to the above, and PA 309 was recently upgraded. 

NOW...if they would only widen the 4-lane portion of I-476...and who knows what to do with the Schuylkill...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 21, 2016, 09:25:06 PM
Southwest PA is laced with what I call "minipikes" courtesy of the PTC.  Why doesn't the Philly area have any (real or contemplated)?

ixnay

Probably the biggest factor is the economy of the area. My understanding is that Turnpike 43 and 66 (and to a lesser degree, 576) were built in an attempt to jumpstart the economies of SWPA’s hardest-hit regions, particularly the Mon Valley and Westmoreland County. Judging by traffic counts, none of them have been very successful; here’s a Post-Gazette article (http://www.post-gazette.com/local/2008/09/14/Fewer-driving-that-long-lonesome-Mon-Fayette-Expressway/stories/200809140165) about the Mon-Fayette.

On the other hand, while metro Philadelphia’s economy hasn’t been exactly soaring, its resilience has been comparatively better than greater Pittsburgh’s. Add in the NIMBY aspect of many Philadelphia suburbanites, higher property values, plus a desire among city dwellers to keep Philadelphia dense, walkable, and transit-oriented, and you have an environment where new highway construction is generally not part of the discussion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 21, 2016, 09:32:47 PM
NOW...if they would only widen the 4-lane portion of I-476...and who knows what to do with the Schuylkill...

Though I am not very trusting of what the political establishment in Harrisburg would do if given the chance, I would turn the Sure-Kill Expressway part of I-76 over to PTC with orders to use tolls to manage the demand that's  there.  I would take half the toll revenues and use them to reconstruct the freeway (within reason - the amount of space available for a widening is someplace between nothing and a little), and give the rest of the dollars to SEPTA in the form of transit capital subsidies.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2016, 06:24:46 AM
NOW...if they would only widen the 4-lane portion of I-476...and who knows what to do with the Schuylkill...

Though I am not very trusting of what the political establishment in Harrisburg would do if given the chance, I would turn the Sure-Kill Expressway part of I-76 over to PTC with orders to use tolls to manage the demand that's  there.  I would take half the toll revenues and use them to reconstruct the freeway (within reason - the amount of space available for a widening is someplace between nothing and a little), and give the rest of the dollars to SEPTA in the form of transit capital subsidies.

No!  You are removing the one and only free interstate option for people leaving Philly to the west. For those wanting to avoid tolls, you would overload the existing street system, and making the lives of the residents along those streets a hellish nightmare to go anywhere. 

The problem with the PTC is that it's already doing that, and it's starting to make tolls cost-prohibitive.  PA's gas taxes are also the highest in the nation.  There's no reason to have the PTC add tolls to Schuykill Expressway when there's very little they can do anyway, and give half that money to SEPTA.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 29, 2016, 10:35:04 PM

No!  You are removing the one and only free interstate option for people leaving Philly to the west. For those wanting to avoid tolls, you would overload the existing street system, and making the lives of the residents along those streets a hellish nightmare to go anywhere.

If someone is headed west from Philadelphia, they are likely headed to the  Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline.  Not exactly free.

The problem with the PTC is that it's already doing that, and it's starting to make tolls cost-prohibitive.  PA's gas taxes are also the highest in the nation.  There's no reason to have the PTC add tolls to Schuykill Expressway when there's very little they can do anyway, and give half that money to SEPTA.

Pennsylvania's motor fuel taxes have to try to fund the  repair of hundreds of deficient bridges around the state, and PennDOT still does not bother to clean and paint most structural steel on its highway bridges.

I would rather see SEPTA get money from Schuylkill Expressway users and not from Pennsylvania Turnpike patrons from mostly very  distant points around the state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 29, 2016, 10:38:12 PM
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: Truckers scrutinizing Pa. Turnpike payments to PennDOT (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/08/29/Truckers-scrutinizing-Pa-Turnpike-payments-to-PennDOT/stories/201608290005)

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The decision in a federal case in New York state has thrown a new element into the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission’s attempt to get out from under a $450 million annual payment to the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation for public transit: The payments may not be legal.

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In a case filed by the American Trucking Associations, the court ruled Aug. 10 that the New York Thruway Authority can’t use tolls charged to interstate truckers to support the state’s canal system because truckers don’t benefit from the canal. As a result, the trucking group says it will review similar situations in other states that use highway tolls “like a piggy bank”  to fund other items.

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That could include Pennsylvania, where the turnpike commission is required to use tolls from the turnpike to pay $450 million a year to PennDOT to fund public transit in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. The turnpike has raised tolls for nine years and borrowed money annually, partially to make the PennDOT payment.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on August 29, 2016, 11:12:35 PM

No!  You are removing the one and only free interstate option for people leaving Philly to the west. For those wanting to avoid tolls, you would overload the existing street system, and making the lives of the residents along those streets a hellish nightmare to go anywhere.

If someone is headed west from Philadelphia, they are likely headed to the  Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline.  Not exactly free.
or headed to King of Prussia, or the massive corporate parks around Wayne and Malvern, or to the Main Line, or the northwest suburbs via US 422...

yes, of all the many times i've headed west on the Schuylkill from the city, only once have I gone out to the Turnpike. of the region's many commuters, i'm definitely not the only one, either.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on August 29, 2016, 11:31:38 PM

No!  You are removing the one and only free interstate option for people leaving Philly to the west. For those wanting to avoid tolls, you would overload the existing street system, and making the lives of the residents along those streets a hellish nightmare to go anywhere.

If someone is headed west from Philadelphia, they are likely headed to the  Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline.  Not exactly free.
or headed to King of Prussia, or the massive corporate parks around Wayne and Malvern, or to the Main Line, or the northwest suburbs via US 422...

yes, of all the many times i've headed west on the Schuylkill from the city, only once have I gone out to the Turnpike. of the region's many commuters, i'm definitely not the only one, either.
The Schuylkill is bad enough as it is - It would add insult to injury to put tolls on it.  I actually kind of like driving it (off peak of course) instead of looping around the City on the turnpike when passing to and from points west from NJ.  Great views and that free-for-all go-kart-track ride zipping around the curves. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Strider on August 30, 2016, 02:21:26 AM
I wonder why they have not fixed (or rebuild) the Valley Forge interchange (I-76/I-276/PA Turnpike Exit 326). Looking at the map, a sharp U turn must be dangerous. I know there is a development right behind the interchange, but shouldn't they build flyovers in that area?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 30, 2016, 07:25:47 AM

No!  You are removing the one and only free interstate option for people leaving Philly to the west. For those wanting to avoid tolls, you would overload the existing street system, and making the lives of the residents along those streets a hellish nightmare to go anywhere.

If someone is headed west from Philadelphia, they are likely headed to the  Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline.  Not exactly free.
or headed to King of Prussia, or the massive corporate parks around Wayne and Malvern, or to the Main Line, or the northwest suburbs via US 422...

yes, of all the many times i've headed west on the Schuylkill from the city, only once have I gone out to the Turnpike. of the region's many commuters, i'm definitely not the only one, either.

Don't forget the hundreds of thousands of people working in or visiting the city that live in the suburbs accessed from the Schuykill Expressway.Traffic thins out considerably West of the US 1 interchange, and again after the 476 interchange. And most of that traffic exits at the King of Prussia area.

If you're looking as the Schuykill Expressway from a long distance traveler's point of view, all it does is connect the Turnpike with Philly. But most traffic is local traffic, living in the vast sprawl of suburbia North and West of the city.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on August 30, 2016, 08:22:14 AM

No!  You are removing the one and only free interstate option for people leaving Philly to the west. For those wanting to avoid tolls, you would overload the existing street system, and making the lives of the residents along those streets a hellish nightmare to go anywhere.

If someone is headed west from Philadelphia, they are likely headed to the  Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline.  Not exactly free.
or headed to King of Prussia, or the massive corporate parks around Wayne and Malvern, or to the Main Line, or the northwest suburbs via US 422...

yes, of all the many times i've headed west on the Schuylkill from the city, only once have I gone out to the Turnpike. of the region's many commuters, i'm definitely not the only one, either.
The Schuylkill is bad enough as it is - It would add insult to injury to put tolls on it.  I actually kind of like driving it (off peak of course) instead of looping around the City on the turnpike when passing to and from points west from NJ.  Great views and that free-for-all go-kart-track ride zipping around the curves.

Search YouTube for driver's eye views of the Schuylkill at speed.

ixnay
Title: Philly.com: Pa. Turnpike's finances headed south, audit finds
Post by: Flyer78 on September 06, 2016, 07:55:46 PM


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PITTSBURGH - The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission's level of debt is "potentially unsustainable" because projected toll increases could lead motorists to find free alternatives, the state auditor general's office said in an audit released Tuesday.

Auditor General Eugene DePasquale said at a news conference in Pittsburgh that his auditors found the turnpike's financial health has deteriorated substantially since 2007, when the state legislature began requiring the agency to make payments of $450 million a year to PennDOT. The commission has had to borrow a substantial part of that money, and its annual debt payments comprise abut $600 million of its $980 million annual budget.

The audit found the commission's net position - total assets minus liabilities - has "spiraled" from $1.76 billion in 2007 to negative $4.11 billion in 2015. This has occurred despite the commission raising tolls nine years in a row.

...

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20160907_Pa__Turnpike_s_finances_headed_south__audit_finds.html

I don't think this will come as much of a shock to anyone...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 06, 2016, 08:56:46 PM
The auditor's report has a tone like the PTC did this to themselves.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: compdude787 on September 06, 2016, 09:50:07 PM
Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years :banghead:
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html

Act 44 should be repealed. PTC should not have to pay close to half a billion to repair roads other than the turnpike. People driving on the turnpike should only be paying to maintain the road they're driving on.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 08, 2016, 12:04:28 AM
Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years :banghead:
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html

Act 44 should be repealed. PTC should not have to pay close to half a billion to repair roads other than the turnpike. People driving on the turnpike should only be paying to maintain the road they're driving on.

I think a fair compromise would be that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission keeps all of its revenue, but forfeits all revenue from Act 89, which was passed in 2013 to increase funding for road projects across the Commonwealth. Act 89 should be for PennDOT only. Act 44 should be repealed yesterday. How that bill ever saw the light of day is crazy. Even worse, Ohio is now doing the same damn thing (http://www.toledoblade.com/MarilouJohanek/2015/05/09/Injustice-of-using-turnpike-revenue-elsewhere-is-taking-a-toll-on-public-1.html). Monkey see, monkey do, I guess. Are any other states bleeding their toll roads dry?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on September 08, 2016, 06:25:12 AM
Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years :banghead:
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html

Act 44 should be repealed. PTC should not have to pay close to half a billion to repair roads other than the turnpike. People driving on the turnpike should only be paying to maintain the road they're driving on.

I think a fair compromise would be that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission keeps all of its revenue, but forfeits all revenue from Act 89, which was passed in 2013 to increase funding for road projects across the Commonwealth. Act 89 should be for PennDOT only. Act 44 should be repealed yesterday. How that bill ever saw the light of day is crazy. Even worse, Ohio is now doing the same damn thing (http://www.toledoblade.com/MarilouJohanek/2015/05/09/Injustice-of-using-turnpike-revenue-elsewhere-is-taking-a-toll-on-public-1.html). Monkey see, monkey do, I guess. Are any other states bleeding their toll roads dry?
Hmm...

Texas has several toll roads, some are part of a P3 partnership, and both companies (Cintra in this case) get money whenever they pay the toll.
Indiana and the ITR went bankrupt, and something is being done.

But we just have to hope, that something happens that can stop Acts 44 and 89.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 08, 2016, 01:06:02 PM
Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years :banghead:
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html

Act 44 should be repealed. PTC should not have to pay close to half a billion to repair roads other than the turnpike. People driving on the turnpike should only be paying to maintain the road they're driving on.

I think a fair compromise would be that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission keeps all of its revenue, but forfeits all revenue from Act 89, which was passed in 2013 to increase funding for road projects across the Commonwealth. Act 89 should be for PennDOT only. Act 44 should be repealed yesterday. How that bill ever saw the light of day is crazy. Even worse, Ohio is now doing the same damn thing (http://www.toledoblade.com/MarilouJohanek/2015/05/09/Injustice-of-using-turnpike-revenue-elsewhere-is-taking-a-toll-on-public-1.html). Monkey see, monkey do, I guess. Are any other states bleeding their toll roads dry?
Hmm...

Texas has several toll roads, some are part of a P3 partnership, and both companies (Cintra in this case) get money whenever they pay the toll.
Indiana and the ITR went bankrupt, and something is being done.

But we just have to hope, that something happens that can stop Acts 44 and 89.

Honestly, I have no problem with Act 89. First of all, Pennsylvania desperately needs to fix or replace its deficient bridges and modernize its substandard highway segments. There's been a nice dent put in the number of deficient bridges, but there's still a long way to go. Second of all, if PennDOT no longer receives money from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, then it has to get money from somewhere. Besides, I always thought of Act 89 as the first step toward repealing Act 44. Lastly, the federal government has been highly unreliable in recent years, so if highway funding dries up, at least Act 89 gives Pennsylvania something to fall back on.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on September 08, 2016, 01:14:49 PM
1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 08, 2016, 01:17:55 PM
1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).

The PA Turnpike is almost as expensive as 407 now and will likely surpass it pretty soon if the increases continue. The difference is that 407 is tolled at such high rates to ensure free-flow speeds.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 08, 2016, 01:20:54 PM
And what would the cost per mile on the Thruway be if they had to widen it to 6 lanes between Buffalo and Syracuse, and Albany and NYC?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 08, 2016, 01:25:43 PM
And what would the cost per mile on the Thruway be if they had to widen it to 6 lanes between Buffalo and Syracuse, and Albany and NYC?

Not much more because the state would likely step in to fund it like they do with all of the major projects. That and the entire mainline is already engineered for 6 lanes, greatly reducing the cost. IINM, the Albany widening was done without replacing a single bridge (because, again, it was designed for eventual expansion to 6 lanes).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on September 08, 2016, 05:04:57 PM
1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).

The PA Turnpike is almost as expensive as 407 now and will likely surpass it pretty soon if the increases continue. The difference is that 407 is tolled at such high rates to ensure free-flow speeds.
Not quite, the 407 is more expensive. Here's a comparison (this is 14 kilometers by the way):


https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/tolls/toll-calculator.html
https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/tollmileage.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 08, 2016, 08:58:44 PM
1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).

The PA Turnpike is almost as expensive as 407 now and will likely surpass it pretty soon if the increases continue. The difference is that 407 is tolled at such high rates to ensure free-flow speeds.
Not quite, the 407 is more expensive. Here's a comparison (this is 14 kilometers by the way):


https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/tolls/toll-calculator.html
https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/tollmileage.aspx

Divide the 407 rate by 1.29 to get the equivalent in USD. It was an exaggeration. Assuming transponder use, 407 costs approximately 3 times more. At that rate (assuming 407 increases at the rate it has been and a similar exchange rate), it will reach that within 30 years. Even with inflation, that is quite a big toll increase.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2016, 11:35:10 AM
Daily Item editorial (Sunbury, Pennsylvania): Pick-pocketing Pennsylvania drivers (http://www.dailyitem.com/opinion/today-s-editorial-pick-pocketing-pennsylvania-drivers/article_20ded40e-5065-56a4-acca-aef181381162.html)

Quote
Commonwealth officials would be wise to review a recent court ruling in New York state, which could have implications across the border with Pennsylvania’s Turnpike system and its tolls.

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Last month, a federal court ruled the New York Thruway Authority cannot use tolls charged to truck drivers to fund the state’s canal system, which the truckers obviously are not using. The case was filed by the American Trucking Association, and bolstered by the ruling, the association will now survey other states to see if similar situations are present.

Quote
“We certainly see the decision as a warning shot to any jurisdiction that tries to use tolls from interstate truckers as a kind of piggy bank,”  said Rich Pianka, general counsel for the trucking group. “We will be aggressively looking at these situations across the country to see what other action we might take.”
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2016, 12:12:57 PM
Daily Item editorial (Sunbury, Pennsylvania): Pick-pocketing Pennsylvania drivers (http://www.dailyitem.com/opinion/today-s-editorial-pick-pocketing-pennsylvania-drivers/article_20ded40e-5065-56a4-acca-aef181381162.html)

Quote
Commonwealth officials would be wise to review a recent court ruling in New York state, which could have implications across the border with Pennsylvania’s Turnpike system and its tolls.

Quote
Last month, a federal court ruled the New York Thruway Authority cannot use tolls charged to truck drivers to fund the state’s canal system, which the truckers obviously are not using. The case was filed by the American Trucking Association, and bolstered by the ruling, the association will now survey other states to see if similar situations are present.

Quote
“We certainly see the decision as a warning shot to any jurisdiction that tries to use tolls from interstate truckers as a kind of piggy bank,”  said Rich Pianka, general counsel for the trucking group. “We will be aggressively looking at these situations across the country to see what other action we might take.”

It's going to be very important to see what the courts feel is a beneficial use of those toll dollars.  In NY State, the Canal system appeared to have nothing to do with transportation.  In Pennsy, there's an argument that mass transit assists with transportation in that it reduces traffic on the roads.  But will they say the toll money must remain the toll system, and only be used on projects that physically benefit those using the roadway?

The DRPA got themselves into trouble when they were using toll money in the 1990's and early 2000's on "economic development", where upwards of a half-billion dollars flew out the door to help with constructing and demolishing buildings and whatnot that had absolutely nothing to do with traffic.  The most the DRPA could say was that by contributing millions of dollars to projects, the new building would assist in creating a reason for more traffic top use their bridges.  Even today a fair portion of the tolls collected goes to support the PATCO High Speed line, which the DRPA controls.  If the Truckers Association files a lawsuit against the PTC on the basis that toll money shouldn't support mass transit, it's possible they could then go after the DRPA and numerous other authorities.  The PANYNJ practically built the new World Trade Center on the backs of those going thru their tunnels and over their bridges, so that'll be another one that'll be watching for any new lawsuits.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on September 13, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
It's going to be very important to see what the courts feel is a beneficial use of those toll dollars.  In NY State, the Canal system appeared to have nothing to do with transportation.  In Pennsy, there's an argument that mass transit assists with transportation in that it reduces traffic on the roads.  But will they say the toll money must remain the toll system, and only be used on projects that physically benefit those using the roadway?
Let's be honest; most of the PA Turnpike, including its respective branches, runs nowhere near any mass transit centers/hubs in the Keystone State.  I.e. increased ridership along SEPTA or equivalent will not translate to a decrease of vehicles using the Turnpike.

The DRPA got themselves into trouble when they were using toll money in the 1990's and early 2000's on "economic development", where upwards of a half-billion dollars flew out the door to help with constructing and demolishing buildings and whatnot that had absolutely nothing to do with traffic.  The most the DRPA could say was that by contributing millions of dollars to projects, the new building would assist in creating a reason for more traffic top use their bridges.  Even today a fair portion of the tolls collected goes to support the PATCO High Speed line, which the DRPA controls.  If the Truckers Association files a lawsuit against the PTC on the basis that toll money shouldn't support mass transit, it's possible they could then go after the DRPA and numerous other authorities.
It's worth noting that the diversion of DRPA bridge tolls to unrelated development projects started during the time when a certain individual was Mayor of Philadelphia; this individual would later become Governor of PA circa 2003 and I'll leave it at that.

As far as bridge tolls funding transit projects is concerned: Since PATCO actually utilizes one of the 4 DRPA bridges (the Ben Franklin), is run by the DRPA itself and indeed contributes to reducing traffic along at least one or two of the bridges (Ben Franklin & Walt Whitman); allotting a (fair/reasonable) portion of the bridge toll revenue to PATCO can be justified by the DRPA. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on September 13, 2016, 05:22:35 PM
Let's be honest; most of the PA Turnpike, including its respective branches, runs nowhere near any mass transit centers/hubs in the Keystone State.  I.e. increased ridership along SEPTA or equivalent will not translate to a decrease of vehicles using the Turnpike.
I won't dispute your honesty, as you are quite correct in the larger sense, but an elimination of SEPTA regional rail would have a VERY large impact on the PA Turnpike in Montgomery and Bucks County.  From the Lansdale, Ft Washington, & Philadelphia interchanges there is not a particularly attractive option to get into Philly from points to the North-West.  That being said, most other PATP interchanges have a free expressway nearby that isn't the turnpike (although they would be overwhelmed very quickly).

My 2cents..
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on September 14, 2016, 08:53:32 AM
but an elimination of SEPTA regional rail would have a VERY large impact on the PA Turnpike in Montgomery and Bucks County.
Who said anything about elimination of Regional Rail service?  Most people that commute by rail to/from Philly from those two counties would use (when driving) either I-76 or 95 depending on their origin/destination.  Like other mass transit systems, especially commuter rail, SEPTA's system is largely a hub-and-spoke model.  Commuters using the Turnpike for more than between 2 exits, at least the I-276 portion, are typically suburb-to-suburb commuters aka point-to-point.  They're not the Regional Rail's clientele.

Besides, given the recent Silverliner V debacle (covered on another thread) impact on train schedules; many in those areas are now likely treating SEPTA as if it doesn't exist.  I.e. they're already driving.  I've had to do such when the Media/Elwyn inbound times were altered earlier this month; but that's another story for another thread.

From the Lansdale, Ft Washington, & Philadelphia interchanges there is not a particularly attractive option to get into Philly from points to the North-West.  That being said, most other PATP interchanges have a free expressway nearby that isn't the turnpike (although they would be overwhelmed very quickly).
The nearest parallel route to the Northeast Extension is PA 309; which has two 7-8 mile stretches of freeway between its southern terminus in Cheltenham and a point just north of Perkasie.  While not ideal, at least the arterial portions of 309 are not narrow 2-laners.  If one's heading to Center City from 309 & the Fort Washington area & north; they would likely use I-276 between Fort Washington & Mid-County and then take I-476 South to I-76 East.  Unless their place of employment is located in Northeast Philly; I doubt that one coming from 309 would use I-276 East to US 1 South (to PA 63 East to I-95 South).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 14, 2016, 10:46:54 AM
Change the tolls to something politically insane but instructive:  Drop the truck tolls to compliance, add $5 to every auto ticket between Valley forge and the Delaware river.  Add $3 to every auto ticket from Irwin to Warrendale with the collected amount in a lockbox to their respective transit agencies, see how long the PTC is expected to continue the contribution.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 16, 2016, 02:22:25 PM
Change the tolls to something politically insane but instructive:  Drop the truck tolls to compliance, add $5 to every auto ticket between Valley forge and the Delaware river.  Add $3 to every auto ticket from Irwin to Warrendale with the collected amount in a lockbox to their respective transit agencies, see how long the PTC is expected to continue the contribution.

I did not do the calculations, but I assert anyway that these do not provide nearly enough money to be poured into Pennsylvania's transit agencies (remember that the Act 66/Act 69 dollars that the PTC gives to PennDOT go to all or nearly all transit providers across the state, not just the big two, SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County).

Much better to fund transit operating deficits and transit capital subsidies out of higher taxes on  motor fuels.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 16, 2016, 05:32:36 PM
Change the tolls to something politically insane but instructive:  Drop the truck tolls to compliance, add $5 to every auto ticket between Valley forge and the Delaware river.  Add $3 to every auto ticket from Irwin to Warrendale with the collected amount in a lockbox to their respective transit agencies, see how long the PTC is expected to continue the contribution.

I did not do the calculations, but I assert anyway that these do not provide nearly enough money to be poured into Pennsylvania's transit agencies (remember that the Act 44/Act 89 dollars that the PTC gives to PennDOT go to all or nearly all transit providers across the state, not just the big two, SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County).

Much better to fund transit operating deficits and transit capital subsidies out of higher taxes on  motor fuels.

FTFY.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 25, 2016, 12:17:25 PM
PublicSource.org: To anyone who rides the bus in Pittsburgh: PA turnpike debt is threatening your commute (http://publicsource.org/from-the-source/anyone-who-rides-bus-pittsburgh-pa-turnpike-debt-threatening-your-commute)

Quote
Buried in last week’s report about the deepening debt of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (http://www.paauditor.gov/Media/Default/Reports/spe92364PennsylvaniaTurnpikeCommission.pdf) was an early warning for the thousands of people in the Pittsburgh area who rely on public transit for rides to work or the grocery store.

Quote
The Port Authority of Allegheny County could be in jeopardy of losing more than half of its annual funding in just six years, according to state Auditor General Eugene DePasquale.

Quote
By fiscal year 2022-2023, the Turnpike Commission will be allowed to drastically cut its payment to the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation [PennDOT]. Right now, the commission pays $450 million a year to PennDOT to pay for public transit. In six years, it will only be responsible for $50 million annually.

Quote
Since the 2007-2008 fiscal year, the Port Authority of Allegheny County has received between 50 and 60 percent of its funding each year through PennDOT. Two laws, Act 44 and Act 89, set up this payment structure.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on September 25, 2016, 09:17:18 PM
Well then, maybe it's time that the Metropolitan Pittsburgh region should increase the sales tax or license fee to pay for THEIR area's public transportation.  Why should people hundreds of miles away on the other end of the Penna Pike be partially be footing their bill?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2016, 12:39:25 AM
Well then, maybe it's time that the Metropolitan Pittsburgh region should increase the sales tax or license fee to pay for THEIR area's public transportation.  Why should people hundreds of miles away on the other end of the Penna Pike be partially be footing their bill?

Good questions.

IMO, Pennsylvania should allow regions around the state to levy a tax on motor fuels to subsidize transit.  It would (at least to some extent) tax the parts of the state that have these expensive transit systems and (at least in current practice) need to have most or all capital spending funded by non-transit users, and subsidize transit operating deficits.

Note that I have no idea what the charge per gallon of gasoline and Diesel fuel would be for such subsidies, especially in the areas served by the  Port Authority  of Allegheny County and SEPTA.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on September 26, 2016, 08:39:38 PM
Well then, maybe it's time that the Metropolitan Pittsburgh region should increase the sales tax or license fee to pay for THEIR area's public transportation.  Why should people hundreds of miles away on the other end of the Penna Pike be partially be footing their bill?

Good questions.

IMO, Pennsylvania should allow regions around the state to levy a tax on motor fuels to subsidize transit.  It would (at least to some extent) tax the parts of the state that have these expensive transit systems and (at least in current practice) need to have most or all capital spending funded by non-transit users, and subsidize transit operating deficits.

Note that I have no idea what the charge per gallon of gasoline and Diesel fuel would be for such subsidies, especially in the areas served by the  Port Authority  of Allegheny County and SEPTA.

I don't see why that couldn't be arranged. They already allow counties to add their own fee over top of the standard vehicle registration fee (Montgomery County being the latest county to implement one). This wouldn't be much different.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: epzik8 on September 28, 2016, 12:33:29 PM
So when is that mess along the Northeast Extension going to be gone? You know what I'm talking about. The Plymouth Meeting-Lansdale-Quakertown construction???
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 28, 2016, 12:53:35 PM
So when is that mess along the Northeast Extension going to be gone? You know what I'm talking about. The Plymouth Meeting-Lansdale-Quakertown construction???

Are you talking about the widening project?  Or is all construction referred to as "that mess"?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on September 28, 2016, 02:33:43 PM
The part between Plymouth Mtg to Lansdale is listed is completing this fall, but I think that's a little bit of a stretch, so I'd say spring.  The part between Lansdale and Quakertown has a few overpass widenings now, but the full widening is going to ramp up over the next several years, progressing from south to north...

...pending the Capital Projects review that the Commission is doing, which seems to carry an implied threat that some projects may be scaled back or shelved. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on September 28, 2016, 03:02:02 PM
The part between Plymouth Mtg to Lansdale is listed is completing this fall, but I think that's a little bit of a stretch, so I'd say spring.
It's worth noting that new supplemental E-ZPass ONLY slip ramps at the Lansdale interchange are also being constructed concurrently with the Lansdale to Mid-County widening.  The southernmost 5-miles of that widening project has since been completed a while ago. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on September 28, 2016, 07:30:08 PM
Now hold on here guys..........Three years ago I last drove that stretch of the Northeast Ext. between Lansdale and the Turnpike main-line and there was construction on that stretch going on then. Are you saying that project is still not done three years later? What is it with the PTC? Can they get anything done in a timely manner? How long did it take New Jersey to double the width of their Turnpike down to the Pennsy Pike? And that was probably a bigger project.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on September 28, 2016, 07:39:05 PM
Different projects. What you would have seen three years ago is complete.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on September 29, 2016, 08:14:44 AM
Now hold on here guys..........Three years ago I last drove that stretch of the Northeast Ext. between Lansdale and the Turnpike main-line and there was construction on that stretch going on then. Are you saying that project is still not done three years later? What is it with the PTC? Can they get anything done in a timely manner? How long did it take New Jersey to double the width of their Turnpike down to the Pennsy Pike? And that was probably a bigger project.

When the NJTP widening was occurring, I have two questions: did they reconstruct the now inner lanes from the ground up?  And did they have any other major projects occurring?

In addition to the I-476 section, which they've been reconstructing and widening sections west of Carlisle, west of Somerset, and around Pittsburgh all at the same time.  So, I think the progress is closer to comparable.  PA is doing the widening and reconstructing in 4-8 mile sections.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 29, 2016, 08:23:40 AM
Now hold on here guys..........Three years ago I last drove that stretch of the Northeast Ext. between Lansdale and the Turnpike main-line and there was construction on that stretch going on then. Are you saying that project is still not done three years later? What is it with the PTC? Can they get anything done in a timely manner? How long did it take New Jersey to double the width of their Turnpike down to the Pennsy Pike? And that was probably a bigger project.

Not completely familiar with the exact part of the project going on, but it's a 10 - 15 mile project that they're doing portions at a time.  Yeah, it's slow, but not abnormally slow, given the terrain and the room they have to work with.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on September 29, 2016, 09:14:18 AM
Now hold on here guys..........Three years ago I last drove that stretch of the Northeast Ext. between Lansdale and the Turnpike main-line and there was construction on that stretch going on then. Are you saying that project is still not done three years later? What is it with the PTC? Can they get anything done in a timely manner? How long did it take New Jersey to double the width of their Turnpike down to the Pennsy Pike? And that was probably a bigger project.

Not completely familiar with the exact part of the project going on, but it's a 10 - 15 mile project that they're doing portions at a time.  Yeah, it's slow, but not abnormally slow, given the terrain and the room they have to work with.
As stated earlier (& on the previous page); the widening of the southern 5 miles of the Northeast Extension (MM 20.0 to MM 25.0) is complete.  At present, all widening-related construction work for the Mid-County/Lansdale stretch is taking place along the northern 5-6 miles (MM 25.0 to MM 30.0-31.0).  Work includes replacing the original overpasses with wider ones as well as widening the mainline corridor.  At the Lansdale interchange itself, a concurrent project involving the construction of additional slip-ramps (E-ZPass ONLY) is also taking place.

When I was last in the area over a month ago, the concrete for the new northbound exit slip ramp was already poured.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on September 29, 2016, 09:46:45 AM
There has been a consistent process they've followed:  bridges over the turnpike are done first as an "advance" contract.  Then new lanes and wider bridges are done first, then traffic is switched to the new outside lanes, and the original road and bridges are reconstructed.

So, in addition to PHLBOS' point, several of the overpasses in the MM31-38 section have been or are being widened, as well as the mainline on MM320-326 section.

My comment above forgot the two smaller widenings near Harrisburg, near I-83 and east of I-283, and technically also east of I-95.  So, there are by quick count ~20-25 miles being widened right now, in addition to the sections already done.

Here's a status map.  Some of the completed projects before ~2010 did not involve widening. Some of the western projects include short new alignments to remove curves. 

https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/travel/Total_Recon_2014.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on September 29, 2016, 05:01:30 PM
The PTC also typically breaks each widening project up into at least two segments which are then constructed sequentially with no overlap. Each segment of mainline (travel lanes) is constructed over two construction seasons. So instead of an entire 10-mile-long stretch taking two years to complete, there are two 5-mile-long stretches which each take two years to complete, for a total of four years for the entire widening project. And that doesn't include the preliminary overhead bridge work which takes at least one and sometimes up to three construction seasons to complete before the travel lanes are even begun.

The portion from Landsdale to Quakertown will be at least two separate widening projects, so if the pattern holds, widening there from 4 to 6 lanes will take eight years to construct (not including the preliminary overhead bridge work).

So if the PA Turnpike widening projects seem like they take forever to complete, it's because they do. (I think "forever" is a technical term included in the contracts' language.")

And this is after the PTC gets its act together and actually moves a project to construction. They've had the Valley Forge to Great Valley (PA 29) widening project on hold for years while they engage in a spitting contest with the Army Corps of Engineers, nickel-and-diming the Army Corps over its environmental requirements. IIRC, that project was intended to move to construction in 2010 and still it languishes. (Army Corps: "It has to be this way." PTC: "OK, how about this way instead?" Army Corps: "No, it has to be this way." PTC: "OK, then, how about this other way instead?" Army Corps: "No, it has to be this way." PTC: "Well, OK, maybe this way?" Army Corps: "No…" etc. No joke.)

The new PA 29 interchange itself moved to construction two years (I think) behind schedule because the PTC did the same with the Army Corps with that project. (The spitting contest in that case involved drainage controls to protect a nearby high-quality trout fishing stream.)

That's PTC's history; they virtually never begin construction on a project when they say they will. And then they stage them so that they take longer than they should to complete once they do start.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 29, 2016, 05:52:10 PM
At the Lansdale interchange itself, a concurrent project involving the construction of additional slip-ramps (E-ZPass ONLY) is also taking place.

When I was last in the area over a month ago, the concrete for the new northbound exit slip ramp was already poured.

Wish the PTC would stop referring to these as "slip ramps," which they are not.  They are EZ-Pass only or ETC-only exit ramps.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on September 30, 2016, 09:00:12 AM
At the Lansdale interchange itself, a concurrent project involving the construction of additional slip-ramps (E-ZPass ONLY) is also taking place.

When I was last in the area over a month ago, the concrete for the new northbound exit slip ramp was already poured.

Wish the PTC would stop referring to these as "slip ramps," which they are not.  They are EZ-Pass only or ETC-only exit ramps.
One has to wonder... once the Turnpike goes fully AET; would the new E-Z-Pass Only ramps at this interchange even be needed?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on September 30, 2016, 01:22:33 PM
One has to wonder... once the Turnpike goes fully AET; would the new E-Z-Pass Only ramps at this interchange even be needed?
I drove through that interchange on PA63 for many years on a daily basis.  The extra capacity for the interchange is badly needed, although I'm not a fan of the new design. 
I think a far better flow would have been created by sinking a single grade separated underpass from 63East into the existing toll plaza.  As it will exist, all traffic from 63East will have to make a left turn at one of two lights to get to the turnpike.  That's a lot of traffic around rush hour, and it jams up frequently
There was plenty of room for the underpass once over the turnpike bridge, but the engineers decided a 2nd ramp from 476 northbound into the same intersection that the toll plaza currently uses was a better idea.    The design still seems bizarre to me, and perhaps even more so when considering the limitations the roadbed has on the current 63East for left hand turns directly west of the Old Forty Foot Road intersection (where the one "slip" ramp will feed from) 
If Mainland Road was turned back into 63East (as it was 63 until a few years ago) and made one way eastbound, that Forty Foot Road Intersection would work with a wider bridge and a dedicated turn lane(s) that would easily fit in the ROW.  Seems like this new setup will just create more of a hassle for everyone, especially through traffic not getting on the turnpike.  Glad I don't have to time going through there anymore.
Here's a link to the interchange btw..  https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA20toA31/lib/img/overview/lansdale-interchange.jpg (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA20toA31/lib/img/overview/lansdale-interchange.jpg) 
Ramp B-1 will be the troublemaker I suspect. 
Ramp F-1 takes up the space I would have used for an underpass exit from 63East into the toll plaza. 
(There's a pretty nice incline from Old Forty foot road to where ramp F-1 dumps out on 63.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 09, 2016, 05:43:43 PM
I was doing my monthly review of various construction project photos and it appears that the eastern half of the MP40-48 project is now complete and open to traffic for 6 lanes.  This would bring the 6 laning to 4 miles west of the Allegheny Valley interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 10, 2016, 09:42:18 AM
Here's a link to the interchange btw..  https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA20toA31/lib/img/overview/lansdale-interchange.jpg (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpA20toA31/lib/img/overview/lansdale-interchange.jpg) 
Ramp B-1 will be the troublemaker I suspect. 
Ramp F-1 takes up the space I would have used for an underpass exit from 63East into the toll plaza. 
(There's a pretty nice incline from Old Forty foot road to where ramp F-1 dumps out on 63.)
Once this interchange becomes fully AET; Ramp F-1 can probably replace the old northbound exit ramp in terms of function.

It appears that AET Ramp B-1 will allow those heading east along PA 63 to get on I-476 South earlier than the present interchange.

All traffic (cash & E-ZPass) can use the new Ramp I when completed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on October 10, 2016, 01:14:47 PM
It appears that AET Ramp B-1 will allow those heading east along PA 63 to get on I-476 South earlier than the present interchange.
Agreed, but there is (and will be) very little room for left turning traffic to approach the intersection with B-1.

I suspect that the two lane westbound 63 traffic will be squeezed to 1 lane, and the middle lane will be converted into a left turn only lane, but I haven't read that anywhere.  I'm hoping the traffic signal isn't just turned into a one way goes at a time (fully protected), but I suspect a majority of the traffic will be trying to make that left.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: KEVIN_224 on October 12, 2016, 09:56:38 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-collectors-will-accept-credit-cards.html

Haven't seen this done in any other states!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on October 12, 2016, 10:21:06 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-collectors-will-accept-credit-cards.html

Haven't seen this done in any other states!
"it's not a preferred method" = everyone will now do it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 12, 2016, 10:27:10 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-collectors-will-accept-credit-cards.html

Haven't seen this done in any other states!
"it's not a preferred method" = everyone will now do it.

I was thinking the same thing. Just look at what happened when McDonalds and other fast food places started accepting credit cards. I certainly don't pay with cash and neither do most other people.

That being said, accepting credit card payments if a system isn't all-AET just makes sense nowadays. Nobody carries cash and people are more likely to use a toll road if they don't need to have cash on their person.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: KEVIN_224 on October 12, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
I've heard of debit cards being accepted for Illinois Lottery tickets. Of course:

1- DEBIT cards only and not credit.
2- The person MUST have a physical Illinois street address.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on October 12, 2016, 10:36:58 PM
Cl94, nobody carries cash anymore? Ya' sure about that? I still carry cash, aka United States Currency and my rule of thumb is if a purchase is under $20, I pay cash; over $20 I usually use a credit card. Paying cash is not going to fall by the wayside anytime soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ned Weasel on October 12, 2016, 11:50:31 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-collectors-will-accept-credit-cards.html

Haven't seen this done in any other states!

Actually, the Kansas Turnpike has accepted credit cards at the toll plazas for a while.  I always thought it was a bit silly, but apparently someone with the Kansas Turnpike Authority thought it was worth it to accept them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sparker on October 13, 2016, 05:12:54 AM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-collectors-will-accept-credit-cards.html

Haven't seen this done in any other states!

Actually, the Kansas Turnpike has accepted credit cards at the toll plazas for a while.  I always thought it was a bit silly, but apparently someone with the Kansas Turnpike Authority thought it was worth it to accept them.

Seems like it would be worthwhile for a pike authority to be able to collect $$ immediately from the cardholder or the issuer rather than wait for remittance via pay-by-plate, as is done with AET for non-subscribers/passholders.   
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 13, 2016, 05:15:59 AM
Cl94, nobody carries cash anymore? Ya' sure about that? I still carry cash, aka United States Currency and my rule of thumb is if a purchase is under $20, I pay cash; over $20 I usually use a credit card. Paying cash is not going to fall by the wayside anytime soon.

I usually carry some cash for really small purchases and laundry plus I was told that it is nice to have some for emergencies.  Though, for the most part, most people around my age barely use cash anymore if ever.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on October 13, 2016, 08:07:43 AM
Cl94, nobody carries cash anymore? Ya' sure about that?

If nothing else, he was hyperbolizing to make a point. Cash transactions as a percentage of all transactions are the lowest they've ever been in first-world countries. And as 74 implied, the younger the person the less cash they use. But I'm in my 50s and I hardly ever use cash, only keeping it in my wallet for emergencies.

I suspect that a completely cashless society may be like the paperless office--always coming but never arriving, not really entirely desirable when closely scrutinized, and not truly an absolute thing but more of a "meta-trend."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 13, 2016, 08:36:24 AM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-collectors-will-accept-credit-cards.html

Haven't seen this done in any other states!

Not many other states have cross-state tolls that are higher than the biggest bill most people carry.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on October 13, 2016, 09:52:20 AM
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-collectors-will-accept-credit-cards.html

Haven't seen this done in any other states!
"it's not a preferred method" = everyone will now do it.

YEP - and that's going to slow things considerably in the cash lanes...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on October 13, 2016, 11:29:11 AM
Seems like it would be worthwhile for a pike authority to be able to collect $$ immediately from the cardholder or the issuer rather than wait for remittance via pay-by-plate, as is done with AET for non-subscribers/passholders.

KTA does not do pay-by-mail or license plate tolling, so I suspect the main purpose of allowing credit-card payment is to deal with people who enter the Turnpike without realizing they don't have enough cash on hand to pay the toll.  Credit cards can apparently also be used at the Mackinac Bridge tollbooths; up until a couple of years ago, you had to go to the administration building to pay by credit card.

This is really a separate topic, but I personally won't use license plate tolling unless there is a way I can pay in advance so that I can then check the next credit card bill for a charge in the appropriate amount.  When a toll authority does not accept license plate registration and prepayment, that means I have to take the risk that it will not be able to match my license plate to me until some indefinite time in the distant future, at which point it will charge me service fees and toll violation fines that are several multiples of the actual toll and that I cannot easily challenge or appeal while living in a distant state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on October 13, 2016, 12:10:49 PM
...my rule of thumb is if a purchase is under $20, I pay cash; over $20 I usually use a credit card.

Then by your own rules, you’d be using a credit card for any sizable trip on the PA Turnpike. The non-E-ZPass toll from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh is $23.15, from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh is $32.90, and from border to border is $49.05.

In an age when you can walk into 7-Eleven and buy a pack of gum with a Visa, I think many people find it legitimately surprising that they can’t use a credit card for a nearly fifty-dollar toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 13, 2016, 01:11:28 PM
...my rule of thumb is if a purchase is under $20, I pay cash; over $20 I usually use a credit card.

Then by your own rules, you’d be using a credit card for any sizable trip on the PA Turnpike. The non-E-ZPass toll from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh is $23.15, from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh is $32.90, and from border to border is $49.05.

In an age when you can walk into 7-Eleven and buy a pack of gum with a Visa, I think many people find it legitimately surprising that they can’t use a credit card for a nearly fifty-dollar toll.

Agree completely, especially if someone isn't from the northeast. I know I'm not the only person who rarely carries cash.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 13, 2016, 01:38:16 PM
Pretty sure the Thruway accepts credit cards, as does the Thousand Islands Bridge Authority.

I don't use cash as a rule.  I do carry $30 just in case I need it, but I prefer to avoid using it and when I do I get my cash back to $30 the next time I'm in the bank (which includes depositing smaller denominations and withdrawing either a $10 or $20, depending on what was used/is there).  I also keep a roll of quarters in my closet for laundry (which is why I need to go to the bank every three weeks).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 13, 2016, 02:48:19 PM
Pretty sure the Thruway accepts credit cards, as does the Thousand Islands Bridge Authority.

Thruway does not (http://www.thruway.ny.gov/travelers/tolls/faqs.html#tollbooth-credit).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 13, 2016, 07:06:32 PM
Interesting... wonder where that rumor started?  Anyways, I do know for a fact that the TIB does take credit cards.
http://www.newzjunky.com/news/0224tiba.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on October 13, 2016, 07:18:32 PM
Well briantroutman, I should have mentioned that I've been using E-Z pass for many years and that I believe it is the most practical way to pay tolls. And my E-Z Pass is billed to my credit card.  :)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 13, 2016, 07:35:05 PM
The people PTC is trying to deal with aren't the regular users who have E-ZPass anyway. It's the tourists from the plains states and west where E-ZPass doesn't exist and/or toll roads are uncommon or nonexistent. Heck, to many people from those parts, the concept of a toll is foreign.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on October 13, 2016, 07:46:04 PM
For whatever reason I'm part of the rare non EZPass members. My dad is just too stubborn in order to convince him that we need an EZPass.

Sorry for the rant.


Now that I think about it, what's the point about toll roads not allowing you to use a credit card to pay tolls? It's like "no outside food" policies. You can easily just sneak food in and eventually there's no point in having added or removed it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on October 13, 2016, 08:17:00 PM
Credit card companies charge a service fee. That's one of the ways they make money. That's also why many places have minimum purchase amounts for cards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 13, 2016, 09:00:36 PM
Riding the PA Turnpike today, I took note that there is no credit card signage at the plazas, so they are definitely keeping it on the downlow.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on October 13, 2016, 11:09:40 PM
The Indiana East-West Toll Road accepts credit cards.  The lines at those toll booths seemed to be long.  I can't imagine what it would be like if a road such as the Garden State Parkway accepted credit cards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 14, 2016, 01:15:14 PM
The A-30 bridge over the St. Lawrence also accepts credit cards, and the booths even have credit card only lanes.  Ditto for the Confederation Bridge.  I believe similar setups exist in Europe.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 23, 2016, 09:44:53 PM
Last night I did one of my regular reviews of thew PA Turnpike design and construction page.  When I went to the Southern Beltway page, for the first time there was a specific list of the individual contracts that will make up the 22 to 79 portion.  They were clickable and went to a future separate website for each segment.  It also indicated that the first contract to extend the mainline south of 22 is either imminent or has been awarded, it also indicated that 2 additional contracts will be underway by spring.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Stephane Dumas on October 23, 2016, 10:32:26 PM
There some new photos taken in August showing the ramps to I-95 taking shape. https://www.patpconstruction.com/paturnpikei95/current-sectiond10.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on October 24, 2016, 09:26:04 PM
It's about time.......
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 16, 2016, 08:13:58 AM
Well it looks like the PTC is full steam ahead on its capital projects, even with its financial situation.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/11/16/Financial-concerns-won-t-halt-Pa-turnpike-road-projects/stories/201611160095
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 16, 2016, 08:40:42 AM
Well it looks like the PTC is full steam ahead on its capital projects, even with its financial situation.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/11/16/Financial-concerns-won-t-halt-Pa-turnpike-road-projects/stories/201611160095

Quote
The agency noted that since 2007, when payments to PennDOT began, it has spent about $5 billion for off-turnpike projects and $4.4 billion on turnpike improvements.

Need anyone say more?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 06, 2016, 07:05:04 AM
PTC plans to award a contract on the Scranton Beltway for preliminary design next month. (http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/scranton-beltway-taking-next-step-1.2126771)

Quote from article:
Quote
A PennDOT study found the beltway could remove 2,500 vehicles a day from I-81 northbound and 2,200 southbound, with more than 80 percent of that truck traffic – though a turnpike official cautioned they are only estimates and traffic diversion projections “are still all over the map.”

I would think that without tolling (assuming the tolling and that most traffic would probably use it at rush hour were accounted for) those numbers would be a bit higher.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 06, 2016, 01:18:30 PM
Those interchanges definitely need improvement, but if traffic is shunpiking now, I don't see how that alone will stop them from shunpiking.  Maybe a little improvement with AET, but I think the main reason traffic doesn't go there is because the PTC tolls are sky high (like that bridge over US 11!).

I-81 could use a widening.  It seems odd that it's only two lanes through a metro area of that size.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 06, 2016, 08:57:13 PM
Those interchanges definitely need improvement, but if traffic is shunpiking now, I don't see how that alone will stop them from shunpiking.  Maybe a little improvement with AET, but I think the main reason traffic doesn't go there is because the PTC tolls are sky high (like that bridge over US 11!).

I-81 could use a widening.  It seems odd that it's only two lanes through a metro area of that size.
2500 a day would take the numbers in the article barely anywhere from where they are now. So yeah.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 06, 2016, 09:17:48 PM
Those interchanges definitely need improvement, but if traffic is shunpiking now, I don't see how that alone will stop them from shunpiking.  Maybe a little improvement with AET, but I think the main reason traffic doesn't go there is because the PTC tolls are sky high (like that bridge over US 11!).

I-81 could use a widening.  It seems odd that it's only two lanes through a metro area of that size.
2500 a day would take the numbers in the article barely anywhere from where they are now. So yeah.

I have only read about widening I-81 to six lanes between US 11/PA 502 in Moosic (Exit 180) and the Central Scranton Expressway (Exit 185) (http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/penndot-plans-174-million-i-81-widening-project-1.1665293) but I am unsure of the status on it. (It is already 6 lanes from there to I-380/I-84/US 6 (Exit 187).)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on December 07, 2016, 09:49:39 AM
I was just in that area a few weeks ago, PennDOT has been widening many of the 81 bridges in the area (if memory serves, even south of MM180) to accommodate future widening. The exit 187 area was widened with the massive reconfiguration there in the early 90s.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: epzik8 on December 07, 2016, 10:12:45 AM
Is there anything of note going on between Monroeville and the Ohio state line right now? I'm going to be driving on that section tomorrow so I can clinch the mainline Turnpike; in fact, I'm entering at Harrisburg West (I-83) so I guess I should say is there anything of note on the mainline west of Harrisburg, other than the widening project in the Cumberland Valley area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on December 08, 2016, 04:25:20 PM
They're in between phases/sections of the widening between Allegheny Valley (Rt.28) & Butler Valley (Rt.8) for the winter - they wrapped up the SE section a few weeks ago, and will probably start the rest of it in the spring (though I think they are doing tree clearing in that area) 
Unless there are odds and ends being worked on, I think that's it.
Though you may have already driven this by the time this gets posted.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 16, 2016, 11:12:25 AM
For whatever reason I'm part of the rare non EZPass members. My dad is just too stubborn in order to convince him that we need an EZPass.
Keep in mind that the PTC charges an annual fee of $3 for each transponder.  While the difference in toll rates (cash vs. EZ-Pass) for a longer one-way trip (or a short round-trip) would offset that fee and thensome; it does not take into consideration that most if not all EZ-Pass account holders need to place an minimum upfront balance of $35 in order to activate the account & have a balance.  Such is fine for frequent Turnpike (& other toll road) users but not necessarily okay for one that only uses a short stretch of the Turnpike (or any toll road) say once a year.  Not everybody likes fronting up $35 and then not tapping into it for over a period of years.
__________________________________________

The 2017 PA Turnpike tolls rates (https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/tollmileage.aspx) are now posted.  Such will take effect this coming Jan. 8, 2017.  Some good news; both the EZ-Pass and the Toll-By-Plate rate for the Delaware River Bridge (Future I-95) will not increase.  The westbound $5 (EZ-Pass)/$6.75 (Toll-By-Plate) will remain as is for this year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 16, 2016, 12:39:54 PM
That's the issue my parents have with getting E-ZPass.  NY doesn't have an annual fee, and the $10 deposit is refunded if you set up automatic replenishment, but that still isn't enough to convince my parents that putting $25 into an account is a great idea, especially since they only spend about $2 in tolls (if that) in a typical year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on December 16, 2016, 11:07:31 PM
I was just on the recently widened portion (mp220-226) near Carlisle the other day and noticed that part of that stretch seems to have been reconstructed with only 4' median shoulders (but still 6 lanes) rather than a full 10 or 12' shoulder. Anyone have some idea why this might have been done? Just some way to cut costs? Something else?

It also appears that preliminary work has begun on the last section between Carlisle and Blue Mtn. Saw a couple of bridges being reconstructed, and tree clearing in the right of way zone.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 22, 2016, 12:27:06 PM
I was just on the recently widened portion (mp220-226) near Carlisle the other day and noticed that part of that stretch seems to have been reconstructed with only 4' median shoulders (but still 6 lanes) rather than a full 10 or 12' shoulder. Anyone have some idea why this might have been done? Just some way to cut costs? Something else?

It also appears that preliminary work has begun on the last section between Carlisle and Blue Mtn. Saw a couple of bridges being reconstructed, and tree clearing in the right of way zone.

Just saw on the website the MP 220-226 project is no longer listed as active, and the web cam at the Carlisle interchange shows six lanes.  They finished that last piece in a hurry since Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on December 23, 2016, 11:16:13 PM
The E-ZPass auxiliary ramps at Quakertown, at least Northbound, are now open. There is signage indicating E-ZPass only for exit 31-A, Cash/Tickets/E-ZPass 31-B. It looked like the southbound ramps from PA-63 are open as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 24, 2016, 08:55:07 AM
The E-ZPass auxiliary ramps at Lansdale, at least Northbound, are now open. There is signage indicating E-ZPass only for exit 31-A, Cash/Tickets/E-ZPass 31-B. It looked like the southbound ramps from PA-63 are open as well.
.

FTFY. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2016/20161202152213.htm)  They were open December 4th and December 11th respectively.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 20, 2017, 07:20:59 PM
Delaware River Bridge was closed today after NJ TPK inspectors found a crack on a truss.  It's creating a travel nightmare right now with everyone trying to use the smaller bridges or squeezing across the Scudder Falls Bridge.  There's no word on when it will reopen.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/Delaware-River-Bridge-closed.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on January 20, 2017, 09:42:25 PM
So why isn't the connector open from U.S. 130 (NJTP exit 6A) east to exit 6?  (According to Google Maps) That doesn't make sense.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Don'tKnowYet on January 20, 2017, 11:00:00 PM
So why isn't the connector open from U.S. 130 (NJTP exit 6A) east to exit 6?  (According to Google Maps) That doesn't make sense.

ixnay

They also closed the 130 Interchange in full about a year ago when that westbound dump truck slammed into the new AET overhead reader and caught fire.  When it happened, i snooped around with friends that might know and the general consensus is that Interchange 6 has to close completely because there is no way to know who is destined to go west and who is destined to go east.  So if you entered and they closed at the ramp split AND you wanted to go west but only had the option to go east, you would be sent to an unfounded U Turn at the cost of an unnecessary toll.  So they also don't want anyone backing up back to 130 when they found out they were screwed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 21, 2017, 12:53:32 AM
Is it that hard to put up temporary ground signs on 130 saying "TO NJTP ONLY"? I can see it being harder from the NJTP mainline, but on the other hand the detour is easily signed from 130.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2017, 02:23:36 AM
Delaware River Bridge was closed today after NJ TPK inspectors found a crack on a truss.  It's creating a travel nightmare right now with everyone trying to use the smaller bridges or squeezing across the Scudder Falls Bridge.  There's no word on when it will reopen.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/Delaware-River-Bridge-closed.html

CBS-Philly Channel 3: Emergency Repairs Close Delaware River Turnpike Bridge (http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/01/20/delaware-river-bridge-shutdown/)

Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission: UPDATE: Assessment of Delaware River Turnpike Bridge Continues - Bridge will remain closed through tomorrow at a minimum (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170120213356.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on January 21, 2017, 07:47:59 AM
So why isn't the connector open from U.S. 130 (NJTP exit 6A) east to exit 6?  (According to Google Maps) That doesn't make sense.

ixnay

They also closed the 130 Interchange in full about a year ago when that westbound dump truck slammed into the new AET overhead reader and caught fire.  When it happened, i snooped around with friends that might know and the general consensus is that Interchange 6 has to close completely because there is no way to know who is destined to go west and who is destined to go east.  So if you entered and they closed at the ramp split AND you wanted to go west but only had the option to go east, you would be sent to an unfounded U Turn at the cost of an unnecessary toll.  So they also don't want anyone backing up back to 130 when they found out they were screwed.

You mean that dump truck was so high that it failed to clear the reader?  What was in that truck that made it cook?  Or did it careen out of control and hit the shoulder stanchion?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on January 21, 2017, 02:47:47 PM
So why isn't the connector open from U.S. 130 (NJTP exit 6A) east to exit 6?  (According to Google Maps) That doesn't make sense.

ixnay

They also closed the 130 Interchange in full about a year ago when that westbound dump truck slammed into the new AET overhead reader and caught fire.  When it happened, i snooped around with friends that might know and the general consensus is that Interchange 6 has to close completely because there is no way to know who is destined to go west and who is destined to go east.  So if you entered and they closed at the ramp split AND you wanted to go west but only had the option to go east, you would be sent to an unfounded U Turn at the cost of an unnecessary toll.  So they also don't want anyone backing up back to 130 when they found out they were screwed.

You mean that dump truck was so high that it failed to clear the reader?  What was in that truck that made it cook?  Or did it careen out of control and hit the shoulder stanchion?

ixnay

Third possibility, said dump truck could have been driving with its hopper raised (seen that happen way too often).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on January 21, 2017, 07:59:06 PM
So why isn't the connector open from U.S. 130 (NJTP exit 6A) east to exit 6?  (According to Google Maps) That doesn't make sense.

ixnay

They also closed the 130 Interchange in full about a year ago when that westbound dump truck slammed into the new AET overhead reader and caught fire.  When it happened, i snooped around with friends that might know and the general consensus is that Interchange 6 has to close completely because there is no way to know who is destined to go west and who is destined to go east.  So if you entered and they closed at the ramp split AND you wanted to go west but only had the option to go east, you would be sent to an unfounded U Turn at the cost of an unnecessary toll.  So they also don't want anyone backing up back to 130 when they found out they were screwed.

You mean that dump truck was so high that it failed to clear the reader?  What was in that truck that made it cook?  Or did it careen out of control and hit the shoulder stanchion?

ixnay

Third possibility, said dump truck could have been driving with its hopper raised (seen that happen way too often).

If you're referring to October of last year, the dump truck actually brought down power lines west of US 13: http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/10/28/pa-turnpike-closed-eb-and-wb-due-to-downed-wires/

Back to the bridge itself, this article (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20170122_No_traffic_on_Delaware_River_Bridge_while_fracture_is_assessed__fixed.html) has a photo of the actual complete sever of the truss member.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2017, 09:21:13 PM
New Jersey Turnpike Authority press release: Bridge connecting New Jersey and PA Turnpikes to remain closed indefinitely for analysis and repairs (http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/ADVISORY%20Update%20on%20Del%20River%20Turnpike%20bridge.pdf) (.pdf)

Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission press release: Stabilization of Delaware River Turnpike Bridge Under Way -  Bridge to remain closed as engineers formulate permanent repair plan. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170121172125.htm)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on January 22, 2017, 03:04:16 PM
So it's closed between Delaware Valley (US 13) in PA and US 130 in NJ? I'll mark it as under construction in OSM if it's not already.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 22, 2017, 03:32:01 PM
We're looking at a minimum of 2 weeks for this thing: http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Delaware-River-Turnpike-Bridge-Crack-Trusses-Pennsylvania--411425975.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 22, 2017, 05:32:58 PM
So it's closed between Delaware Valley (US 13) in PA and US 130 in NJ? I'll mark it as under construction in OSM if it's not already.

It's actually closed between US 13 and the NJ Turnpike (even the US 130 exit is closed for traffic heading eastbound to the mainline Turnpike).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 22, 2017, 08:01:36 PM
If I were to guess...and it's just a guess...the majority of traffic entering at 130 heads towards PA. Thus, it's easier just to keep the entire interchange closed to prevent confusion. The detour to Exit 7 is very simple, and is actually cheaper for the motorist.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 22, 2017, 08:31:43 PM
If I were to guess...and it's just a guess...the majority of traffic entering at 130 heads towards PA. Thus, it's easier just to keep the entire interchange closed to prevent confusion. The detour to Exit 7 is very simple, and is actually cheaper for the motorist.

That and, once you get on the ramp, there's no way to turn around and avoid a toll if you meant to head toward PA. I picture some stupid out of towner getting slapped with the turnaround charge and raising a stink.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on January 22, 2017, 10:30:34 PM
Bridge was built almost at the same time (Jan 1954-May 1956)  as old Tappan Zee bridge (March 1952-Dec 1955). Deficit of steel during construction was mentioned as a reason why TZB  is being rebuild right now. I wonder if there is any link in terms of amount/quality of steel between these situations.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 22, 2017, 10:34:47 PM
Bridge was built almost at the same time (Jan 1954-May 1956)  as old Tappan Zee bridge (March 1952-Dec 1955). Deficit of steel during construction was mentioned as a reason why TZB  is being rebuild right now. I wonder if there is any link in terms of amount/quality of steel between these situations.

Bigger issue with TZB is the foundations. Wood piles that are rotting.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on January 22, 2017, 10:41:24 PM
Bridge was built almost at the same time (Jan 1954-May 1956)  as old Tappan Zee bridge (March 1952-Dec 1955). Deficit of steel during construction was mentioned as a reason why TZB  is being rebuild right now. I wonder if there is any link in terms of amount/quality of steel between these situations.

Bigger issue with TZB is the foundations. Wood piles that are rotting.
Yes - but as far as I remember it was "they used wood because there was no steel".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 22, 2017, 10:45:55 PM
Bridge was built almost at the same time (Jan 1954-May 1956)  as old Tappan Zee bridge (March 1952-Dec 1955). Deficit of steel during construction was mentioned as a reason why TZB  is being rebuild right now. I wonder if there is any link in terms of amount/quality of steel between these situations.
That's an interesting question. Different agencies, different restrictions. Maybe this one didn't have to "Buy American"? The Newark Bay Bridge is a twin to the Delaware River Bridge, and has much heavier loading, but... well, I can't say it's really in better shape, but it's open. (It gets much heavier repair due to the trucks.)
Incidentally, I have a role with detour signing in this project (for local roads on the PA side). If anyone intends to go down toward Bristol to see what's going on, please do see how they look. For that matter, if anyone has any local knowledge about traffic patterns, hit me up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 22, 2017, 10:46:18 PM
Bridge was built almost at the same time (Jan 1954-May 1956)  as old Tappan Zee bridge (March 1952-Dec 1955). Deficit of steel during construction was mentioned as a reason why TZB  is being rebuild right now. I wonder if there is any link in terms of amount/quality of steel between these situations.

Bigger issue with TZB is the foundations. Wood piles that are rotting.
Yes - but as far as I remember it was "they used wood because there was no steel".

TZB was directly impacted by Korean War shortages, hence the use of wood. The Delaware River bridge was after the war and not impacted by it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2017, 03:12:10 AM
Per Philly.com, you will be able to access the NJ Turnpike Extension eastbound from 130 today.  I also saw in the story several local roads in PA under the bridge will be closed as well.

A few stories said to expect very heavy traffic on other nearby bridges. While this make sense, 2 of the bridges mentioned include the Trenton Makes and Calhoun Street bridges. I can't see much traffic that would have normally used the PA & NJ Turnpike making their way to these  very small bridges.  I do think 1, 95, 195 and NJ 29 to be much heavier today though.  I'll gauge the traffic when I'm in the Trenton area around 7:45am.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2017, 08:32:44 AM
Based on my visuals, traffic was pretty typical on 295, 29, 1, Trenton Makes, and Calhoun Street bridges.

295 North was slow for about 2 miles approaching Exit 47, Rt. 541, which is also the road the NJ Turnpike Interchange 5 exits onto.  Turns out a broken down car in the acceleration lane was the culprit there.

I spotted about a half-dozen vehicles on the NJ Turnpike Extension Eastbound, which means they could access the Turnpike from US 130.  No traffic on the westbound side whatsoever.

Traffic is normally slow on other portions of 295, as well as 29 from 295 to US 1, and exiting from US 1 North to 29; nothing unusual about the congestion there.  Considering the rain and wind today, traffic moved at a relatively good pace.

The only problem with motorists heading to US 1 South off of 29 North is there's no advanced BGS approaching Rt. 1, until approximately 500 feet prior to the interchange.  A 1/2 mile ahead BGS would've been useful around 29 and Cass Street.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on January 23, 2017, 10:11:13 AM
Incidentally, I have a role with detour signing in this project (for local roads on the PA side). If anyone intends to go down toward Bristol to see what's going on, please do see how they look. For that matter, if anyone has any local knowledge about traffic patterns, hit me up.
I live within 10 or so minutes of that area.  I also have a role in some of the traffic mitigation discussions -- I imagine our folks are working with your folks in some way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2017, 10:23:27 AM
A co-worker of mine said it took about 15 minutes longer for her coming in today, but she lives on the PA side of the bridges, and uses US 13, so I imagine her delay may have involved that route.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on January 23, 2017, 10:56:11 AM
A co-worker of mine said it took about 15 minutes longer for her coming in today, but she lives on the PA side of the bridges, and uses US 13, so I imagine her delay may have involved that route.
My commute was also about 15 minutes, give or take, longer, and I use the Trenton-Morrisville Bridge (northbound).  I get on U.S. 1 from Business U.S. 1 or U.S. 13, depending on what I need to do on the way up.  Bumper-to-bumper but moving.  Backup to Route 29 ramp was all the way across the bridge.

Let's see how tomorrow morning looks . . .
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2017, 11:26:42 AM
I think I saw there's construction on US 1 also after you enter NJ, past the Rt. 29 interchange, which doesn't help matters!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on January 23, 2017, 01:12:06 PM
I’ve been driving the I-84/I-81/I-80 corridor in the past two days, and absolutely every VMS I’ve seen–in all directions–is carrying an alert about the Delaware River Bridge closure.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 23, 2017, 03:57:06 PM
Philly.com: Decades-old mistake may have caused bridge beam to fail (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20170123_Decades-old_mistake_may_have_caused_bridge_beam_to_fail.html)

Quote
An apparent construction error six decades ago could have caused the fracture discovered Friday in a steel beam that forced the closure of the Delaware River Bridge, an engineering expert who viewed pictures of the cracked truss said Sunday.

Quote
An image of the cracked truss - a supporting piece - on the bridge that runs between Bucks County in Pennsylvania and Burlington County in New Jersey shows signs of holes that had been mistakenly drilled into the steel beam and then filled with plug welds, a typical solution in the 1950s when the bridge was built, said Karl Frank, professor emeritus of engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. His areas of study include fractures and fatigues in metal structures and welded and bolted joints, according to the university website.

 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on January 23, 2017, 04:53:18 PM
Philly.com: Decades-old mistake may have caused bridge beam to fail (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20170123_Decades-old_mistake_may_have_caused_bridge_beam_to_fail.html)

Quote
An apparent construction error six decades ago could have caused the fracture discovered Friday in a steel beam that forced the closure of the Delaware River Bridge, an engineering expert who viewed pictures of the cracked truss said Sunday.

Quote
An image of the cracked truss - a supporting piece - on the bridge that runs between Bucks County in Pennsylvania and Burlington County in New Jersey shows signs of holes that had been mistakenly drilled into the steel beam and then filled with plug welds, a typical solution in the 1950s when the bridge was built, said Karl Frank, professor emeritus of engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. His areas of study include fractures and fatigues in metal structures and welded and bolted joints, according to the university website.

Something here seems uncomfortable to me. Maybe I am dead wrong... Actually I hope I am wrong! But -  What exactly caused the failure at the holes? Crack around a hole propagating through? Then what prevents same problem at properly drilled hole?  Weakening of the structure due to loss of material? - Doesn't that mean that structure has eaten entire safety factor over the years and demolition had to start last year? Weakening of material due to weld/overheat? Oh, and did they use welds elsewhere in the construction? See demolition rant above..

I can understand that - all other things equal - failure occurred at defective spot. But saying that defect have caused the failure...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 23, 2017, 08:37:09 PM
Philly.com: Decades-old mistake may have caused bridge beam to fail (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20170123_Decades-old_mistake_may_have_caused_bridge_beam_to_fail.html)

Quote
An apparent construction error six decades ago could have caused the fracture discovered Friday in a steel beam that forced the closure of the Delaware River Bridge, an engineering expert who viewed pictures of the cracked truss said Sunday.

Quote
An image of the cracked truss - a supporting piece - on the bridge that runs between Bucks County in Pennsylvania and Burlington County in New Jersey shows signs of holes that had been mistakenly drilled into the steel beam and then filled with plug welds, a typical solution in the 1950s when the bridge was built, said Karl Frank, professor emeritus of engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. His areas of study include fractures and fatigues in metal structures and welded and bolted joints, according to the university website.

Something here seems uncomfortable to me. Maybe I am dead wrong... Actually I hope I am wrong! But -  What exactly caused the failure at the holes? Crack around a hole propagating through? Then what prevents same problem at properly drilled hole?  Weakening of the structure due to loss of material? - Doesn't that mean that structure has eaten entire safety factor over the years and demolition had to start last year? Weakening of material due to weld/overheat? Oh, and did they use welds elsewhere in the construction? See demolition rant above..

I can understand that - all other things equal - failure occurred at defective spot. But saying that defect have caused the failure...
Yes. Beam is designed to a certain lifespan based on number of loading cycles (as traffic passes over). Weakness/defect in the beam reduces the lifespan because there is less cross sectional area to withstand the stresses, strains, and minute undetectable cracks that form over time. That will always be the first place to go.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 23, 2017, 08:37:55 PM
Per Philly.com, you will be able to access the NJ Turnpike Extension eastbound from 130 today.  I also saw in the story several local roads in PA under the bridge will be closed as well.

A few stories said to expect very heavy traffic on other nearby bridges. While this make sense, 2 of the bridges mentioned include the Trenton Makes and Calhoun Street bridges. I can't see much traffic that would have normally used the PA & NJ Turnpike making their way to these  very small bridges.  I do think 1, 95, 195 and NJ 29 to be much heavier today though.  I'll gauge the traffic when I'm in the Trenton area around 7:45am.
The Trenton Makes and Calhoun St. bridges will get some more traffic than usual if US 1 gets that much heavier.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on January 23, 2017, 09:24:24 PM
traffic was noticeably heavier (although not bad) on the Scudder Falls Bridge SB this morning around 9AM.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on January 23, 2017, 10:17:24 PM
Yes. Beam is designed to a certain lifespan based on number of loading cycles (as traffic passes over). Weakness/defect in the beam reduces the lifespan because there is less cross sectional area to withstand the stresses, strains, and minute undetectable cracks that form over time. That will always be the first place to go.
Sure, weakest point is where it gives. But looking at the pictures - those holes were taking maybe 5% of cross-section, probably less. Even if it weakens the beam by 20% - what was the safety margin assumed during design, at least 2x? As far as I understand that should be more, at least 3-5, and holes should be well accommodated by that factor. Of course,  this is overly simplistic.... still my feeling is that there were non-designed loads in the system. After all backfilling those holes was deemed acceptable, some PE should have signed it off, and it worked fine for 50 years. Probably someone run the numbers and beam strength was still within the spec...
  Or if everything worked by design  - does it mean that other beams of the bridge by now are at 80% life, meaning 50 year old bridge has 10 more years before falling apart?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CrystalWalrein on January 24, 2017, 02:37:19 AM
Isn't that bridge supposed to be either rehabilitated or replaced as part of the Interchange Project? I know that a parallel bridge was part of the plans....
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on January 24, 2017, 06:05:23 AM
Yes, but design work hasn't begun and construction isn't planned to start until 2025 at the earliest. At least as of last week.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 24, 2017, 06:11:17 AM
Isn't that bridge supposed to be either rehabilitated or replaced as part of the Interchange Project? I know that a parallel bridge was part of the plans....

Rehabbed.  A parallel EB span to the south of the existing bridge was to be built; the current span would eventually become the WB only span.

It should've been done by now.  Of course, the PA Turnpike/95 interchange was supposed to be done by now as well.  With any luck, in just under another 2 years they should have the 2 ramps connecting the thru movements of 95 finally completed.

If just the entire 95/PA TPK interchange was completed already, it would have migrated the effects of the detour.  In a way though, since the interchange isn't done even in part, traffic isn't trying to use the "new" 95.  So the bridge beam failure happened before traffic could've been a lot heavier on that bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on January 24, 2017, 07:48:48 AM
Have the NYC/North Jersey radio stations mentioned the inter-turnpike bridge closure in their traffic reports, since I-78 has been pitched as an alternate?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 24, 2017, 10:46:00 AM
If just the entire 95/PA TPK interchange was completed already, it would have migrated the effects of the detour.  In a way though, since the interchange isn't done even in part, traffic isn't trying to use the "new" 95.  So the bridge beam failure happened before traffic could've been a lot heavier on that bridge.

This closure also highlights another missing freeway connection - in New Jersey.

If NJTA and NJDOT had built an interchange on the New Jersey Turnpike south of Exit 3 (presumably it would be marked Exit 2A) to directly connect the Pike to NJ-42/I-76/I-676 and the ACE, there would have been added network redundancy that would have been useful. As it is, making that trip now involves a trip through Bellmawr, Breezewood-style from the Turnpike to I-295 via NJ-168.

I have posted my dislike of this breezewood (I believe the only major breezewood in New Jersey) in the  past, and I can understand that NJTA would not want to build a double-trumpet interchange, but at this point they might  be able to simplify matters by building an E-ZPass Only Exit 2A.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 24, 2017, 10:56:15 AM
If just the entire 95/PA TPK interchange was completed already, it would have migrated the effects of the detour.  In a way though, since the interchange isn't done even in part, traffic isn't trying to use the "new" 95.  So the bridge beam failure happened before traffic could've been a lot heavier on that bridge.

This closure also highlights another missing freeway connection - in New Jersey.

If NJTA and NJDOT had built an interchange on the New Jersey Turnpike south of Exit 3 (presumably it would be marked Exit 2A) to directly connect the Pike to NJ-42/I-76/I-676 and the ACE, there would have been added network redundancy that would have be useful. As it is, making that trip now involves a trip through Bellmawr, Breezewood-style from the Turnpike to I-295 via NJ-168.

I have posted my dislike of this breezewood (I believe the only major breezewood in New Jersey) in the  past, and I can understand that NJTA would not want to build a double-trumpet interchange, but at this point they might  be able to simplify matters by building an E-ZPass Only Exit 2A.

If they ever do build the interchange chances are it can just be a standard interchange as by the time it'll be built, the Turnpike will be EZ Pass/Pay By Mail only.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 24, 2017, 03:03:30 PM
The other missing movement highlighted here, somewhat, is the lack of interchange between I-295 and the NJTP extension - which I know was completely intentional. 

BUT...that prompts a trivia question:  once I-95 gets routed on here, will this be the only case where a 2di crosses a related 3di without an interchange?  Do I-95 and I-895 in Baltimore cross w/o an Interchange also?

(...and should I have posted this on the PA Tnpk board though this is an NJ point?)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 24, 2017, 03:33:23 PM
...Do I-95 and I-895 in Baltimore cross w/o an Interchange also?

Correct...895 crosses under 95 near the Harbor Tunnel's toll plaza.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 24, 2017, 08:38:07 PM
The other missing movement highlighted here, somewhat, is the lack of interchange between I-295 and the NJTP extension - which I know was completely intentional. 

BUT...that prompts a trivia question:  once I-95 gets routed on here, will this be the only case where a 2di crosses a related 3di without an interchange?  Do I-95 and I-895 in Baltimore cross w/o an Interchange also?

(...and should I have posted this on the PA Tnpk board though this is an NJ point?)
I can bring it more on topic: 76 and the western 376 interchange are Breezewooded, if you count that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 24, 2017, 11:54:04 PM
Philly.com: Was bridge beam failure a one-off - or hint of a systemic problem? (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/Was-bridge-beam-failure-a-one-off---or-a-hint-of-a-systemic-problem.html)

Quote
Engineers working on the closed Delaware River Bridge face the task of determining whether a failed beam was an isolated case or something that could happen elsewhere on the structure.

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“They’d be interested in knowing if this is a systemic issue,”  said Carl DeFebo Jr., spokesman for the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.

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The crack completely sheared through a truss beneath the westbound deck of the 1.2-mile-long bridge on the Pennsylvania side of the structure and has forced the closure of the bridge, which carries about 42,000 vehicles a day. 

Quote
Authorities could not estimate when the bridge might reopen, and are reserving judgment on what caused the crack. But engineering experts say pictures of the fissure show signs of holes mistakenly drilled into the beams and then filled with plug welds. That was an approach not uncommon in the 1950s, when the bridge was built, but one modern engineers do not recommend because it can create a weak point in a steel beam. The bridge opened to traffic in May 1956.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 25, 2017, 09:14:02 AM
The other missing movement highlighted here, somewhat, is the lack of interchange between I-295 and the NJTP extension - which I know was completely intentional. 

BUT...that prompts a trivia question:  once I-95 gets routed on here, will this be the only case where a 2di crosses a related 3di without an interchange?  Do I-95 and I-895 in Baltimore cross w/o an Interchange also?

(...and should I have posted this on the PA Tnpk board though this is an NJ point?)
I can bring it more on topic: 76 and the western 376 interchange are Breezewooded, if you count that.

Not just there.

As PTC and PennDOT were removing the breezewood at I-176 (Morgantown, Exit 298), they built another (!) breezewood down the Turnpike at U.S. 222 (Denver, Exit 286).

Not sure why the Federal Highway Administration division office does not step in and firmly tell PennDOT (at least) that there will be no federal dollars to fund any new breezewoods.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on January 25, 2017, 09:48:22 AM
As PTC and PennDOT were removing the breezewood at I-176 (Morgantown, Exit 298), they built another (!) breezewood down the Turnpike at U.S. 222 (Denver, Exit 286).

Not sure why the Federal Highway Administration division office does not step in and firmly tell PennDOT (at least) that there will be no federal dollars to fund any new breezewoods.
Upon looking at historic topographic mapping (type "Denver, PA" & compare 1976 vs. 1978 topo mapping) (http://www.historicaerials.com/); the current Reading interchange (Exit 286/originally Exit 21) was constructed circa 1977; years before the Morgantown (I-176) Breezewood was removed.  Given the era and that this was a connection to a non-Interstate; the Feds likely didn't raise a stink.

While I'm not crazy about Breezewoods per say, the one at the Reading interchange is more tolerable because such was built with a connector-feeder road as well (as opposed to utilizing an existing street w/developments alongside them).  Additionally, the movement to US 222 northbound from the Turnpike can be done without stopping for a red light.

Note: the original Reading interchange trumpet is still in tact (Pepperidge Drive) (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2215888,-76.0901717,17.49z)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 25, 2017, 02:56:47 PM
As PTC and PennDOT were removing the breezewood at I-176 (Morgantown, Exit 298), they built another (!) breezewood down the Turnpike at U.S. 222 (Denver, Exit 286).

Not sure why the Federal Highway Administration division office does not step in and firmly tell PennDOT (at least) that there will be no federal dollars to fund any new breezewoods.
Upon looking at historic topographic mapping (type "Denver, PA" & compare 1976 vs. 1978 topo mapping) (http://www.historicaerials.com/); the current Reading interchange (Exit 286/originally Exit 21) was constructed circa 1977; years before the Morgantown (I-176) Breezewood was removed.  Given the era and that this was a connection to a non-Interstate; the Feds likely didn't raise a stink.

While I'm not crazy about Breezewoods per say, the one at the Reading interchange is more tolerable because such was built with a connector-feeder road as well (as opposed to utilizing an existing street w/developments alongside them).  Additionally, the movement to US 222 northbound from the Turnpike can be done without stopping for a red light.

Note: the original Reading interchange trumpet is still in tact (Pepperidge Drive) (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2215888,-76.0901717,17.49z)


I will admit to exaggerating about the dates and times involved, though I was not aware that it dates all the way back to 1977. 

I dislike all breezewoods (I  know, that's a shock, right?) - mostly for reasons of safety (motorists not familiar with the area are not expecting a stoplight or driveways), but also because of congestion and capacity.

Wonder if PTC might re-open the ramps at Pepperidge Drive once they have converted to cashless tolling.  Might be a little too close to the "new" interchange at U.S. 222 (Exit 286), but maybe not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 25, 2017, 03:05:07 PM
I wasn't thinking of breezewoods...my comment was about 2dis and their related 3dis...and the lack of connection, even closely nearby.  NJs future I-95/I-295 and Baltimore's I-95/I-895 crossing doesn't have an immediate nearby exit, and there is very little signage, if any, that direct one to the other and vice-versa.

The old layout of I-76/I-176 I would have put in a similar category...though in that case, there was specific signage directing from one to the other.  The I-76/I-376 western interchange is similar to this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on January 25, 2017, 04:06:30 PM
I dislike all breezewoods (I  know, that's a shock, right?) - mostly for reasons of safety (motorists not familiar with the area are not expecting a stoplight or driveways), but also because of congestion and capacity.
Then you probably don't like the I-90 (Mass Pike)/US 20/MA 146 interchange (Exit 10A) (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Millbury,+MA/@42.2079233,-71.7920013,15.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e405694ee685c1:0xb1a9cda7e3a0fc72!8m2!3d42.1920719!4d-71.761522) which was built during the previous decade.

Wonder if PTC might re-open the ramps at Pepperidge Drive once they have converted to cashless tolling.  Might be a little too close to the "new" interchange at U.S. 222 (Exit 286), but maybe not.
They could probably do cashless 'slip-ramps' but such would require a traffic signal installation at the intersection of Pepperidge Drive and Col. Howard Blvd. (the connector road linking PA 272 to the Turnpike).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 25, 2017, 07:39:26 PM
I dislike all breezewoods (I  know, that's a shock, right?) - mostly for reasons of safety (motorists not familiar with the area are not expecting a stoplight or driveways), but also because of congestion and capacity.
Then you probably don't like the I-90 (Mass Pike)/US 20/MA 146 interchange (Exit 10A) (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Millbury,+MA/@42.2079233,-71.7920013,15.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e405694ee685c1:0xb1a9cda7e3a0fc72!8m2!3d42.1920719!4d-71.761522) which was built during the previous decade.

That's a special case. Only way they could really preserve access to US 20. For the uninitiated, US 20 and MA 122A had an interchange where they crossed that was wiped out when 122A was converted from a Jersey freeway to limited-access.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2017, 12:45:32 AM
Philly.com: No word on how long the Delaware River Bridge will be closed (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/How-long-with-the-the-Delaware-River-Bridge-be-closed.html)

Quote
Motorists who typically use the Delaware River Bridge connecting the Pennsylvania and New Jersey Turnpikes should make new driving plans for the foreseeable future, officials urged Tuesday.

Quote
It will be at least two weeks before the nature of the bridge repairs is known, and making the fix will take longer, they said. As engineers attempt to diagnose and then repair the crack that forced the bridge's shutdown Friday, commuters likely will continue to experience significant delays on alternative routes.

Quote
Joseph Donnelly, Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission spokesman, said Tuesday that Route 1 commuters traveling on the Trenton-Morrisville Bridge saw traffic backed up for about five miles, adding more than 20 minutes to the trip. On the Scudder Falls Bridge, commuters are experiencing delays of about 18 minutes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 27, 2017, 08:58:32 AM
Traffic has adapted quite well.  I think the Burlington-Bristol bridge, US 1 and I-95 received the brunt of the extra traffic, which is understandable, but mostly affecting the PA side of the river.  On NJ 29 North, there has been a very minor increase in traffic approaching the US 1 SB ramp, although no worse than on a regular day if there was an accident or incident on US 1 that'll clog up traffic anyway.  Some co-workers said traffic was bad last Monday; I haven't heard much gripping since.  I'm not hearing anything about those using the Calhoun and Trenton Makes bridges dealing with much more traffic...I didn't expect that much due to their locations and the fact that trucks aren't permitted on those bridges.  Traffic jams are a bit longer on both 95 and 1 approaching the bridges, moreso on 95 I believe because of how narrow that bridge is.

It helps that of the main Delaware River toll bridges, the NJ/PA Turnpike bridge had one of the lowest traffic counts.  Of the multi-lane bridges, only the US 22 bridge carries less traffic.  And because of its central location, without a major city on either side, there's numerous opportunities to disperse traffic throughout the highway system. 

While many people, even on these boards, accuse the NJ Turnpike of trying to keep people on its highway because of the toll revenue, this is a great example of why they don't actually do that.  If they did, they would have kept Interchange 6 open, and forced people to pay the higher toll then send them onto US 130.  Or they would've said the main detour route is Exit 7A, for 195-295-95.  They've openly suggested to traffic coming from the NYC area to use I-78...which is up to about a $7 loss per car and $20 or more per truck, compared to travelling to Exit 6.

It's a bit trickier on the PA side due to the mainline ending...and no connected highway access to other interstates.  We've said many times about the Breezewoods in PA...well, this is both PennDOT and the PTC's issue when it comes to road closures.  Now there's no easy way to route traffic around an issue.  Their delays have suffered a bit longer on their roads, and inconveniences locals a great deal more.  If they would've pushed for the entire I-95 interchange to be connected with the PA Turnpike like they were supposed to do, this issue would've been greatly migrated.  Then again, if traffic could make it to 95 North, the next issue is the I-95 Scudder Falls crossing, which is only 2 lanes per direction with no shoulder and interchanges without accel/decal lanes on either side of the bridge.  The bridge itself is supposed to be widened and replaced, although the sole bid for that project came in 20% above budget.

As for news...it's been pretty quiet.  A story on NJ.com this morning ( http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/01/closed_delaware_river_bridge_will_soon_have_80-foo.html ) mentioned the support towers that will need to be built on the PA side before the bridge will be built, but even that is old news.  Since the weekend, other than talking about the traffic detours and restating what's already been said a dozen times, no real news has developed from this story. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on January 27, 2017, 08:42:35 PM
Traffic has adapted quite well.

Yes.  I thought that part of the Delaware Valley/NYC-Philly corridor was in for an East Coast carmageddon.  Those affected adapted, as you say, quite well.  What helped was the fact that the closure happened on the cusp of a weekend and that those affected had the weekend to prepare for Monday.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 27, 2017, 09:42:04 PM
Traffic has adapted quite well.

Yes.  I thought that part of the Delaware Valley/NYC-Philly corridor was in for an East Coast carmageddon.  Those affected adapted, as you say, quite well.  What helped was the fact that the closure happened on the cusp of a weekend and that those affected had the weekend to prepare for Monday.

ixnay

In terms of issues, I-95 near Philly was shut down due to a truck fire years ago.  I-80 in NJ has the same fate.  I-495 in Wilmington has a strange tilting issue.  The Delaware Memorial Bridge had a suspension rod issue.  NYC has transit strikes leading to mandatory HOV-4 restrictions on most of their bridges/tunnels.

Honestly, it's just another day around here...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 28, 2017, 09:33:35 AM
Article in the Philly Inquirer today shows the repair job where the crack was located, and talks about some of the other bridge issues we have in the region; much of it in PA.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/delaware-river-bridge-closure-infrastructure-region.html

One bridge shown on the map is located near me.  It's now 125 years old and if you were to look under it you wonder how it is even still standing.  Yet, it's not weight restricted at all.  It is scheduled to be replaced next year I believe.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 03, 2017, 06:07:26 PM
Channel 6 in Philly reports the bridge will be closed until at least April.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 03, 2017, 07:46:11 PM
Channel 6 in Philly reports the bridge will be closed until at least April.

Eight more weeks, per the PTC, which is early April.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170203155951.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 03, 2017, 09:42:53 PM
Channel 6 in Philly reports the bridge will be closed until at least April.

Eight more weeks, per the PTC, which is early April.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170203155951.htm

I was half joking to myself the NJTA could probably knock the whole thing down and have it rebuilt in the time it'll take to get it fixed. Apparently the idea was on the table!

A Philly.com article today mentioned the stresses the other beams took when the broken one broke, causing them and the deck to twist slightly.  It was probably extremely fortunate work was being done on the bridge in that particular area, as it seems to sound like this bridge wasn't far off from failing completely.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on February 03, 2017, 09:47:26 PM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 03, 2017, 09:55:19 PM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.

That I don't remember, but the I-35 collapse in Minneapolis I do.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 04, 2017, 08:53:50 AM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.

That I don't remember, but the I-35 collapse in Minneapolis I do.

I remember both.  And wasn't there a bridge collapse on the NYS Thruway west of Schenectady in the late '80s as well?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on February 04, 2017, 09:13:49 AM
Ssyes, there was.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on February 04, 2017, 11:00:52 AM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.

That I don't remember, but the I-35 collapse in Minneapolis I do.

I remember both.  And wasn't there a bridge collapse on the NYS Thruway west of Schenectady in the late '80s as well?

Yes, although that was a problem with the footings, not the structural members.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on February 04, 2017, 12:18:44 PM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.

That I don't remember, but the I-35 collapse in Minneapolis I do.

I remember both.  And wasn't there a bridge collapse on the NYS Thruway west of Schenectady in the late '80s as well?

Yes, although that was a problem with the footings, not the structural members.
Well, there was another fairly close call in Albany as well
(http://www.albanyweblog.com/images/01-28-07_05.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 04, 2017, 08:33:29 PM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.

That I don't remember, but the I-35 collapse in Minneapolis I do.

I remember both.  And wasn't there a bridge collapse on the NYS Thruway west of Schenectady in the late '80s as well?

Yes, although that was a problem with the footings, not the structural members.

Sounds similar to what happened to I-495 in Delaware years later.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 05, 2017, 12:00:06 PM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.

There was also the 1987 total and catastrophic failure (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/06/nyregion/bridge-collapses-on-the-thruway-trapping-vehicles.html?pagewanted=all) of the bridge that carried the I-90 part of the New York State Thruway over Schoharie Creek near Amsterdam, resulting in ten fatalities. This happened after a very heavy rain event in the area (and upstream), that caused the piers of the bridge to be swept away.

NTSB report summary here (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR8802.aspx).  A scanned .pdf copy of the NTSB report can be downloaded off  this page (https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/PB88916202.xhtml).

Quote
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the-probable cause of the collapse of the Schoharie Creek Bridge was the failure of the New York State Thruway Authority to maintain adequate riprap around the bridge piers, which led to severe erosion in the soil beneath the spread footings. Contributing to the accident were ambiguous plans and specifications used for construction of the bridge, an inadequate NYSTA bridge inspection program, and inadequate oversight by the New York State Department of. Transportation and the Federal Highway Administration. Contributing to the severity of the accident was the lack of structural redundancy in the bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: slorydn1 on February 05, 2017, 01:14:49 PM
J&N you are so right! And yes we're lucky it was discovered when it was, lest we would have had another Connecticut Tpk. 1983 type disaster if you remember that.

There was also the 1987 total and catastrophic failure (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/06/nyregion/bridge-collapses-on-the-thruway-trapping-vehicles.html?pagewanted=all) of the bridge that carried the I-90 part of the New York State Thruway over Schoharie Creek near Amsterdam, resulting in ten fatalities. This happened after a very heavy rain event in the area (and upstream), that caused the piers of the bridge to be swept away.

NTSB report summary here (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR8802.aspx).  A scanned .pdf copy of the NTSB report can be downloaded off  this page (https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/PB88916202.xhtml).

Quote
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the-probable cause of the collapse of the Schoharie Creek Bridge was the failure of the New York State Thruway Authority to maintain adequate riprap around the bridge piers, which led to severe erosion in the soil beneath the spread footings. Contributing to the accident were ambiguous plans and specifications used for construction of the bridge, an inadequate NYSTA bridge inspection program, and inadequate oversight by the New York State Department of. Transportation and the Federal Highway Administration. Contributing to the severity of the accident was the lack of structural redundancy in the bridge.

I remember watching a very informative documentary on this topic on one of the Discovery networks years ago, back when they used to have informative programming.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 05, 2017, 08:26:05 PM
There was also the 1987 total and catastrophic failure (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/06/nyregion/bridge-collapses-on-the-thruway-trapping-vehicles.html?pagewanted=all) of the bridge that carried the I-90 part of the New York State Thruway over Schoharie Creek near Amsterdam, resulting in ten fatalities. This happened after a very heavy rain event in the area (and upstream), that caused the piers of the bridge to be swept away.

I believe empirestate and yours truly already mentioned that incident earlier on this page, although with not nearly as much detail (detail for which we thank you, cpzilliacus).

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 05, 2017, 10:31:52 PM
I believe empirestate and yours truly already mentioned that incident earlier on this page, although with not nearly as much detail (detail for which we thank you, cpzilliacus).

I saw that but thought that there would be some in our forum that might be interested in the detail in the NTSB report.

I suppose we should be thankful and happy that the service of the NTSB were not needed regarding the Delaware River Turnpike Bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on February 06, 2017, 11:43:59 AM
So the Pearl Harbor Extension is entirely closed westbound, but is it open eastbound from US 130 to the mainline NJTP? Google Maps' traffic listing seems to indicate that it is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 06, 2017, 11:47:23 AM
So the Pearl Harbor Extension is entirely closed westbound, but is it open eastbound from US 130 to the mainline NJTP? Google Maps' traffic listing seems to indicate that it is.

Yes, open Eastbound only.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on February 17, 2017, 09:34:58 PM
Bernie Newman's Breezewood in the Fall photos of the Abandoned Pennsylvania Turnpike from October 1999 was really the first major feature and submission to my then fledgling geocities website. I've added them back to the blog and updated some information as a lot has and hasn't changed since 1999.

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/02/breezewood-in-fall.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 17, 2017, 10:23:29 PM
I've added them back to the blog and updated some information as a lot has and hasn't changed since 1999.

Those photos were probably the first glimpses of the Abandoned Turnpike I ever had as an under 16 roadgeek who rarely ever got out of his hometown. I can’t count the number of times I’ve visited there in the second half of my life that has passed since then.

Other than the overpass removals, which are obvious, the creeping change that strikes me most when I visit today is how overgrown it is becoming–particularly in the summer months. Trees encroach ever closer from the shoulders. Shrubs grow outward from the median in all directions. Crumbling pavements yield to bristle-like grasses piercing through cracks. In a few places, the road almost disappears entirely.

I wonder if nature will reclaim it all within another few decades.

I also wonder about the legal status of the Abandoned Turnpike these days. The Southern Alleghenies Conservancy’s website went dead years ago, and a search for the organization doesn’t seem to bring up much beyond some press releases and news articles in the roughly 2000-2005 time frame in which SAC acquired the property and sent a representative to Jeff Kitsko’s 2004 SWPA roadgeek meet. If they’re trying to raise money or rehabilitate the Abandoned Turnpike, I’m not finding the evidence of it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on February 18, 2017, 08:14:39 PM
I've added them back to the blog and updated some information as a lot has and hasn't changed since 1999.

Those photos were probably the first glimpses of the Abandoned Turnpike I ever had as an under 16 roadgeek who rarely ever got out of his hometown. I can’t count the number of times I’ve visited there in the second half of my life that has passed since then.

Other than the overpass removals, which are obvious, the creeping change that strikes me most when I visit today is how overgrown it is becoming—particularly in the summer months. Trees encroach ever closer from the shoulders. Shrubs grow outward from the median in all directions. Crumbling pavements yield to bristle-like grasses piercing through cracks. In a few places, the road almost disappears entirely.

I wonder if nature will reclaim it all within another few decades.

I also wonder about the legal status of the Abandoned Turnpike these days. The Southern Alleghenies Conservancy’s website went dead years ago, and a search for the organization doesn’t seem to bring up much beyond some press releases and news articles in the roughly 2000-2005 time frame in which SAC acquired the property and sent a representative to Jeff Kitsko’s 2004 SWPA roadgeek meet. If they’re trying to raise money or rehabilitate the Abandoned Turnpike, I’m not finding the evidence of it.

Thanks for your reply!  I have similar curiosities on what - if anything - is going on with the stated goal of making it a full on bike trail.  I asked my brother about it.  He did a lot of work over the past 5-8 years with the Great Allegheny Passage and the Trail Town Council.  He never met anyone representing the SAC or the Pike 2 Bike trail during his time with the GAP and TTC.

I started to do some additional research about it - and found a few interesting tidbits. 

1) As you said, the SAC doesn't have a website anymore. It's old website has I think been preserved by the Ray's Hill.com guy - http://www.abandonedturnpike.com/outside_web_pages/SAC/SAC-Bike%20Trail.htm

2) Found this comment interesting - "Mission or Purpose
The Southern Alleghenies Conservancy exists to Conserve, Preserve, and Restore our Natural, Cultural, and Historical Resources through cooperation with local citizens, grassroots organizations, professional service organizations, and government agencies. Andy Patterson, SAC Chairman says, "we're not a project-oriented group...".12/12/2007

not a project oriented group - well this would be a project.  Source: http://conservationtools.org/organizations/4260-Southern-Alleghenies-Conservancy

3) And I am sure you know of the 2006 Gannett Flemming Master Plan(https://www.co.fulton.pa.us/files/planning/pike-to-bike/Pike2Bike%20SAC%20Trail%20Network%20Master%20Plan%20and%20Adaptive%20Re-Use%20Study%20by%20Gannett%20Fleming.pdf) and the Fulton County 2013/14 studies.  https://www.co.fulton.pa.us/files/planning/pike-to-bike/Plan%20for%20Eastern%20Trailhead%20of%20the%20Pike2Bike%20-%20prepared%20by%20John%20B%20Maxwell.pdf

What i find interesting in the Fulton County document is that - Fulton County was not as receptive to the trail because they saw Breezewood and Bedford County getting the majority of the economic impact and in said such in 2006.  That I didn't know until I read that document today.

Plus -there's as you have said I am also not aware of any fundraising.  Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and DC are pretty much within a day trip to the Abandoned Pike.  Board members, fundraising, etc. could easily be done.

In addition, when "The Road" was filmed on the abandoned pike - did they pay to use it.  SAC did own it then - it would have been a great source of funds for their plans.

I really think that there was never good leadership in place that would overcome some of these obstacles.  From my dealings with the SAC from 2001 to about 2004-05, there never seemed to be any real direction - just a lot of cryptic messages.

 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 18, 2017, 09:21:28 PM
I drove east towards New Jersey for the first time and was shocked with the lack of detour signage up for the Delaware River Bridge closure.  All the VMS signs mentioned thru traffic had to exit at US 1, but there were no temporary signs reminding traffic that all traffic must exit, nor were there any "detour" signs after exiting.  I know most people have GPS these days that will re-route them, but you would think they would create construction style signage for such an extended closure.  I know Delaware had detour signs up and everything when I-495 was closed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 18, 2017, 11:36:58 PM
What i find interesting in the Fulton County document is that - Fulton County was not as receptive to the trail because they saw Breezewood and Bedford County getting the majority of the economic impact and in said such in 2006.

From a strictly economic perspective, I think Fulton County’s Mr. Maxwell is right. Since Breezewood already has a very well established base of traveler services, and since the Breezewood end is so easy to reach by car (in sharp contrast to the eastern end), I don’t really see any way for Fulton County to reap any significant benefits from increased tax revenues from the bike path plan .

Personally, I never liked the Pike2Bike concept and always saw the Abandoned Turnpike as both an irreplaceable artifact and a missed opportunity.

Look at it this way: After the Model T became hopelessly obsolete as a daily driver and the vast majority of the millions built had been wrecked or junked, a relatively few surviving examples were preserved and stored in the garages of collectors or exhibited in museums. On the other hand, after a road becomes hopelessly obsolete, it typically can’t be preserved and stored. Even a historic road continues to serve a vital purpose to the people who rely on it every day.

But here’s an absolutely unique situation: More than ten miles of limited access highway lying dormant in rural seclusion. No one relies on it; no one needs it. And this isn’t just any limited access highway, but the first long-distance superhighway in the United States. A road which–whether for good or for ill–played a pivotal role in forever changing America’s transportation destiny. What’s more, this abandoned stretch includes not one but two tunnels–the Turnpike’s signature feature–plus a service plaza site.

In terms of the road’s significance to American transportation history, it’s Independence Hall. I’ve long felt it should be preserved in a similar spirit.

Clearly that’s a pipe dream, and coming up with the (I’m guessing) $100 million or more needed for even a cursory reconstruction would be difficult to say the least. Still, I’ve thought there might be ways to help defray the cost.

Hundreds of thousands of classic car aficionados already descend upon Carlisle (just over an hour to the east) for various auto shows throughout the year. Now imagine that instead of merely parking your ’55 Studebaker in grass fairgrounds, you could cruise down a historic highway more befitting its native era. Attendees could begin at the Breezewood end, make use of services there, then roll down the historic road to the other end where a rebuilt Cove Valley service plaza would serve as a meeting point, locus of activity, and perhaps even concessions.

At other times, the Abandoned Turnpike could be rented out as a film set–this time not as a post-apocalyptic wasteland road but as a flexible suburban/rural freeway.

Combined, maybe these and other revenue-generating ideas would only make a dent in the cost. But at least that would be something, and given the historical significance of the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the irreplaceability of this abandoned section, I’d hate to see it lost forever.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on February 19, 2017, 02:01:54 AM
I drove east towards New Jersey for the first time and was shocked with the lack of detour signage up for the Delaware River Bridge closure.  All the VMS signs mentioned thru traffic had to exit at US 1, but there were no temporary signs reminding traffic that all traffic must exit, nor were there any "detour" signs after exiting.  I know most people have GPS these days that will re-route them, but you would think they would create construction style signage for such an extended closure.  I know Delaware had detour signs up and everything when I-495 was closed.
Stark contrast between agencies, eh? :-P
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on February 19, 2017, 09:53:49 AM
At other times, the Abandoned Turnpike could be rented out as a film set–this time not as a post-apocalyptic wasteland road but as a flexible suburban/rural freeway.

I think this is one of its most promising uses. If the state took it over, and improved it just to a basic state that production companies could dress to their own needs (they'd prefer that over a fully-realized historic recreation, in most cases)–and if the state had a program of incentives for film and TV production, as states like NY, GA and NM do–they might see a lot of use for this purpose and easily recoup the costs of rudimentary rehabilitation.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on February 19, 2017, 04:32:56 PM
I imagine the cost to "restore" the abandoned Turnpike is lower if just for bike/ped than if vehicles were to be allowed on it.  For the former, you'd probably need to mainly trim back the plants and resurface, but for the latter, structural work would likely be needed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News to
Post by: briantroutman on February 19, 2017, 05:58:27 PM
^The existing Pike2Bike plan isn’t really a restoration. In short, the plan aims to overlay a single 10-foot wide asphalt strip in the eastbound carriageway and leave the remainder of the ROW to nature. A few drainage improvements are also mentioned as well as the addition of LEDs to the tunnels. Beyond that, the plans are more or less limited to adding parking spaces and a bathroom facility at either end–nothing that would be out of place in a typical state park. The total estimated cost in 2006 was about $3 million.

If the plan was instead to reconstruct four lanes and do something more along the lines of a true restoration, I’m very roughly guessing $100 million as a low-end figure based on the costs the PTC has cited to reconstruct and widen sections of the mainline in recent years.

Now you might be able to–and perhaps this is what you were suggesting–do a relatively cheap asphalt overlay of both carriageways that would look decent at a glance and be strong enough to support the light loads imposed by people and bicycles but not resilient enough to support motor vehicles.

That might be a workable compromise, although even with minimal weight loading, I wonder how well a quick-and-dirty asphalt overlay would last over time. I know the AASHO road test of the ’50s established that it was weight, not exposure to the elements, that caused the majority of pavement damage, and yet I notice that in some sections of the Abandoned Turnpike–which has had almost no vehicular traffic for 40 years–the asphalt has been reduced to rubble.

The other downside of any restoration that doesn’t make the road car-worthy is that it would preclude any of the revenue-generating ideas that might help offset the reconstruction cost–at least any of the ideas I’ve envisioned.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on February 19, 2017, 09:46:41 PM
So with my recent posts on the abandoned PA Turnpike - I decided to investigate why nothing has been done to convert the old highway to a multi-use trail as planned when the Southern Alleghenies Conservancy acquired it in 2001. 

Well - in short the SAC was way in over its head.  Difficulty in getting funding along with the aftermath of a 2006 Master Plan that was rejected by the Fulton County Board of Commissioners stalled the project for nearly a decade.  More recently, a new study commissioned in 2014 updated the proposal and also proposed new ownership and funding sources.  Since then, there has not been any other progress in transforming the abandoned pike to the hopeful vision of the SAC 16 years ago.  Read more at the blog:

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/02/after-16-years-heres-why-pike-2-bike.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on February 20, 2017, 09:54:01 AM
At other times, the Abandoned Turnpike could be rented out as a film set–this time not as a post-apocalyptic wasteland road but as a flexible suburban/rural freeway.

I think this is one of its most promising uses. If the state took it over, and improved it just to a basic state that production companies could dress to their own needs (they'd prefer that over a fully-realized historic recreation, in most cases)–and if the state had a program of incentives for film and TV production, as states like NY, GA and NM do–they might see a lot of use for this purpose and easily recoup the costs of rudimentary rehabilitation.

The Road was filmed along the old turnpike back in 2007-08.  But I found nothing on if they paid any money to use it and if they did how much and who it went to.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 24, 2017, 02:57:07 PM
The PA Turnpike Chairman abruptly resigns: http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/pennsylvania-turnpike-chairman-suddenly-resigns/article_b78b7ce8-fa0b-11e6-a9f1-0f067348086c.html

Quote
Saying he wants to pursue other public service opportunities, the chairman of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission abruptly resigned Thursday.

Sean Logan, of Plum, Allegheny County, announced he is resigning, effective immediately, said turnpike spokesman Carl DeFebo Jr.

"It is with mixed emotions that I step down from the PA Turnpike Commission, as I have come to know and respect my fellow commissioners and the entire senior-staff team. I've also had the privilege of meeting many of the folks who make the turnpike run day in and day out: our toll collectors," he said.

Logan was first appointed to the PTC in July 2013 and named chairman in January 2015.

During his tenure, Logan ensured the commission remained focused on its core duties: operating more efficiently; investing in rebuilding; and expanding its system and managing its Act-44 funding obligations to PennDOT, DeFebo said.

DeFebo added that Logan handled significant, national-headline grabbing events in 2016.
 
He was referring to the January blizzard that stranded hundreds of motorists on the turnpike in the Allegheny Mountains and an armed robbery attempt at the Fort Littleton interchange in March. A toll collector and security contractor were killed and the suspect, a retired state trooper, was shot to death.

In the coming weeks, Gov. Tom Wolf expects to nominate a new turnpike commissioner. That nominee must be confirmed by at least a two-thirds majority of the state Senate.


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 24, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
The NJ/PA Turnpike Bridge is now being jacked up into place.  After the jacking is complete, they'll determine how repairs should be done.

Also included within the article (quoted in full below), it stated the NJ & PA Turnpikes are losing approximately $1 million to $2 million in revenue each, each week, due to the closure.

http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/repositioning-procedure-started-on-delaware-river-bridge-in-bristol-township/article_477581c4-fa01-11e6-bcbf-6f6564aab91b.html

Quote
Crews began the "very deliberate and delicate process" early Friday morning of returning the Delaware River Bridge to its original position.

The structure was displaced about 2 inches after a 14-inch I-beam was severed below the bridge's road surface along the Pennsylvania side of the structure.

The crews are using hydraulic jacks, supported by eight heavy-duty temporary towers that were recently installed beneath the bridge, to coax the structure back into place. They will work from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Friday and then again either Saturday or Sunday, weather-permitting, to finish returning the span to its original position, Brad Heigel, the turnpike's chief engineer, said Thursday. "We are very optimistic that it will work," he said of the estimated $9 million-plus repositioning effort.







The 1.25-mile bridge that carries Interstate 276 from Bristol Township in Bucks County across the Delaware River to Florence in Burlington County, New Jersey, has been closed since the fracture was discovered Jan. 20. "It happened quickly," Heigel said. "It was a sudden fracture – a clean break."

An emergency engineering task force that includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey turnpike representatives and academics from Lehigh and Purdue universities and the University of Texas is trying to determine what caused the beam to sever and what is the best way to fix it.



ADVERTISING


Right after the fracture was discovered a temporary splice was put on the beam to hold it together.

During the repositioning work, crews are using about 100 sensors all along the bridge to monitor the span, Heigel said. The observations will help the engineers determine how much stress the bridge, and especially the damaged beam, will be able to handle when the permanent repairs are made.

The still to-be-determined repairs could range from constructing a permanent splice to reconnect the fractured section to possibly a total replacement of the damaged area, Heigel said. The task force has not come up with an estimate for the total cost of the repair project.

The "best-case-scenario" estimate is that the bridge will reopen in early April if only a permanent splice is needed, the engineer said. No time estimates are available in the event more extensive repairs are needed, he said.

The 61-year-old toll bridge, which typically serves about 42,000 vehicles per day, will remain closed until it is permanently repaired. The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority are each losing between $1 million to $2 million in revenue per week while it is closed, spokesman Carl DeFebo said previously.
 

While the bridge is closed, traffic is being rerouted to the Scudder Falls Bridge, which carries Interstate 95 between Lower Makefield and Ewing in Mercer County, New Jersey. Motorists also have been using the Calhoun Street, Route 1 and Trenton Makes bridges in Morrisville, the Burlington-Bristol Bridge in Bristol Township and the Interstate 78 bridge in the Lehigh Valley.

Updates about the closure and detour routes are posted at www.paturnpike.com/DRBAlert.aspx.

During a speech about road improvements to the Lower Bucks County Chamber of Commerce on Thursday morning, the executive director of TMA Bucks encouraged chamber members to give themselves enough travel time because of the extra traffic congestion created by the bridge closure.

"Put an extra 15 minutes into your trip (schedule)," said Bill Brady, the TMA Bucks executive director, during the breakfast in Middletown. "Plan for it and be patient."

Patience will be required for the next several years as multiple road improvement projects are completed throughout Bucks County, Brady said. They include the project connecting the turnpike to Interstate 95 that should be completed by 2022; planned improvements along the Route 1 expressway from Bensalem up to Middletown that could be done by 2025; and, the three- to four-year construction project of a new Scudder Falls Bridge that is set to begin in the spring.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 03, 2017, 06:06:39 PM
So far, everything's going well and an April reopening of the bridge is expected to occur...

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20170303_ap_34d8d1d0e29b4005848fea7e59ad6232.html?mobi=true
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on March 03, 2017, 08:35:09 PM
 Progress! Good news for a change! I'm planning a trip to Penna. in May, so maybe I'll get to cross the bridge if all goes well. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on March 04, 2017, 09:59:04 AM
How far away is the signage for the I-276 detour?  I use 83 south past the turnpike (Exit 242) a few times a week and the VMS has the detour noted from 83.  I think this is good, but am curious how far west this is posted.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on March 04, 2017, 10:00:29 AM
Also, regarding the Abandoned Turnpike, I thought it was already a bike trail?  I went in May using Oregon Rd as an access and went into the Sideling Hill Tunnel.  I saw at least 10 other people.  It was a pretty cool experience.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 04, 2017, 10:22:24 AM
How far away is the signage for the I-276 detour?  I use 83 south past the turnpike (Exit 242) a few times a week and the VMS has the detour noted from 83.  I think this is good, but am curious how far west this is posted.

The detour was also noted on US 322 WB heading to the Eisenhower Interchange when I drove back to Harrisburg from Hershey a few weeks ago.  I do not think I mentioned it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on March 04, 2017, 11:20:14 AM
Also, regarding the Abandoned Turnpike, I thought it was already a bike trail?  I went in May using Oregon Rd as an access and went into the Sideling Hill Tunnel.  I saw at least 10 other people.  It was a pretty cool experience.

Unofficially yes it is.  However, since about 2006 no work has been done to convert it to a full fledged multi-use trail.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on March 04, 2017, 01:15:10 PM
How far away is the signage for the I-276 detour?  I use 83 south past the turnpike (Exit 242) a few times a week and the VMS has the detour noted from 83.  I think this is good, but am curious how far west this is posted.

The detour was also noted on US 322 WB heading to the Eisenhower Interchange when I drove back to Harrisburg from Hershey a few weeks ago.  I do not think I mentioned it.
I saw it on I-81 south near exit 52. That's about how far west I saw it, since I can't check VMS' along the Turnpike, thanks to broken links on the website. It's 134 miles west, in case you were wondering.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on March 05, 2017, 01:02:45 PM
I drove east towards New Jersey for the first time and was shocked with the lack of detour signage up for the Delaware River Bridge closure.  All the VMS signs mentioned thru traffic had to exit at US 1, but there were no temporary signs reminding traffic that all traffic must exit, nor were there any "detour" signs after exiting.  I know most people have GPS these days that will re-route them, but you would think they would create construction style signage for such an extended closure.  I know Delaware had detour signs up and everything when I-495 was closed.
I had to loop around the bridge closure westbound via NJ 29 and US 1 in Trenton this past weekend and was surprised to see almost no signage indicating the closure entering from US 1 (Bensalem interchange).  At most, there may have been one VMS indicating the closure on Route 1 in advance of the interchange, but there was absolutely nothing after the tolls at the split to enter EB or WB.

What is funny is that in the GSV below of that split, there is a portable VMS sitting there indicating "Shoulder Closed Ahead".  The closed shoulder was apparently far more of an important issue at the time, than putting the same VMS there today to indicate that the entire roadway is just a long off-ramp onto US 13.  Well done PTC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1333318,-74.9715503,3a,66.8y,235.61h,90.34t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sSseKrBWuh6TC7EkzQCmkAg!2e0?force=lite
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2017, 01:35:58 PM
http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/heavy-duty-trucks-being-used-in-bristol-township-to-test/article_69eb30cc-0376-11e7-857e-efb55e4486b9.html

The repair project continues to go well, from the sounds of it.  They tested the bridge with 40 ton trucks and will await the results of those tests later this week.  As long as everything goes well, an opening later this month isn't out of the question.

If you don't care about the project, at least open the link to view the pic of the frustrated man speaking at the meeting!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 08, 2017, 02:27:40 PM
http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/heavy-duty-trucks-being-used-in-bristol-township-to-test/article_69eb30cc-0376-11e7-857e-efb55e4486b9.html

The repair project continues to go well, from the sounds of it.  They tested the bridge with 40 ton trucks and will await the results of those tests later this week.  As long as everything goes well, an opening later this month isn't out of the question.

If you don't care about the project, at least open the link to view the pic of the frustrated man speaking at the meeting!  :biggrin:
As far as I understand, the big question "why that happened?" is not answered...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2017, 02:31:22 PM
http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/heavy-duty-trucks-being-used-in-bristol-township-to-test/article_69eb30cc-0376-11e7-857e-efb55e4486b9.html

The repair project continues to go well, from the sounds of it.  They tested the bridge with 40 ton trucks and will await the results of those tests later this week.  As long as everything goes well, an opening later this month isn't out of the question.

If you don't care about the project, at least open the link to view the pic of the frustrated man speaking at the meeting!  :biggrin:
As far as I understand, the big question "why that happened?" is not answered...

Yep.  It's only a guess as to when and what time.  Several theories are out there: Overloaded truck; cold weather, residents hearing a loud noise, etc.  But most likely they're never going to truly know.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 08, 2017, 03:13:27 PM
http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/heavy-duty-trucks-being-used-in-bristol-township-to-test/article_69eb30cc-0376-11e7-857e-efb55e4486b9.html

The repair project continues to go well, from the sounds of it.  They tested the bridge with 40 ton trucks and will await the results of those tests later this week.  As long as everything goes well, an opening later this month isn't out of the question.

If you don't care about the project, at least open the link to view the pic of the frustrated man speaking at the meeting!  :biggrin:
As far as I understand, the big question "why that happened?" is not answered...

Yep.  It's only a guess as to when and what time.  Several theories are out there: Overloaded truck; cold weather, residents hearing a loud noise, etc.  But most likely they're never going to truly know.
And hopefully not learn the answer when next one fails... Some mysteries go unsolved, but I would also setup some monitoring to keep an eye on the thing...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 08, 2017, 09:55:33 PM
http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/heavy-duty-trucks-being-used-in-bristol-township-to-test/article_69eb30cc-0376-11e7-857e-efb55e4486b9.html

The repair project continues to go well, from the sounds of it.  They tested the bridge with 40 ton trucks and will await the results of those tests later this week.  As long as everything goes well, an opening later this month isn't out of the question.

If you don't care about the project, at least open the link to view the pic of the frustrated man speaking at the meeting!  :biggrin:
As far as I understand, the big question "why that happened?" is not answered...

Yep.  It's only a guess as to when and what time.  Several theories are out there: Overloaded truck; cold weather, residents hearing a loud noise, etc.  But most likely they're never going to truly know.
And hopefully not learn the answer when next one fails... Some mysteries go unsolved, but I would also setup some monitoring to keep an eye on the thing...
Well, they thoroughly scoured the bridge for evidence of more similar plug welds, so the fact it's reopening so quickly suggests it's not going to be a problem.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on March 09, 2017, 02:49:15 AM
Here's a picture of a reconstructed and widened segment of the Turnpike near Pittsburgh:

(https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp40to48/image/MP%2045.40%20Six%20Travel%20Lanes%20Open%20-%20Construction%20Complete%201.JPG)

This segment is just west of the Allegheny River, from MM 44 to MM 48. This year they're going to widen another segment north of Pittsburgh, from MM 40 to MM 44. The big future project will be the reconstruction and widening east of Pittsburgh, from MM 49 to MM 67. That's the most heavily traveled segment of the Turnpike in western Pennsylvania, and the most expensive segment to reconstruct too, due to a number of long bridge spans. That segment is in design right now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 09, 2017, 03:30:33 AM
I follow the Design and Construction turnpike site, several projects with specific start dates are now "tbd" after the Delaware bridge closure, I hope that the Irwin to New Kensington section does not hit the chopping block.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 09, 2017, 05:44:45 AM
And hopefully not learn the answer when next one fails... Some mysteries go unsolved, but I would also setup some monitoring to keep an eye on the thing...
Well, they thoroughly scoured the bridge for evidence of more similar plug welds, so the fact it's reopening so quickly suggests it's not going to be a problem.
I still don't believe those plugs were the root cause.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on March 09, 2017, 06:27:48 AM
I follow the Design and Construction turnpike site, several projects with specific start dates are now "tbd" after the Delaware bridge closure, I hope that the Irwin to New Kensington section does not hit the chopping block.

I don't see why it would, considering it's the most heavily traveled segment of the Turnpike in western Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 07:54:53 AM
And hopefully not learn the answer when next one fails... Some mysteries go unsolved, but I would also setup some monitoring to keep an eye on the thing...
Well, they thoroughly scoured the bridge for evidence of more similar plug welds, so the fact it's reopening so quickly suggests it's not going to be a problem.
I still don't believe those plugs were the root cause.

A licensed engineer I have spoken with feels that the plug welds were a contributing factor. 

Might a badly overweight truck have been the factor that triggered the fracture?  Possibly, as there was at least one media report describing a loud bang sometime in December from the  vicinity of the bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 09, 2017, 08:37:18 AM
I follow the Design and Construction turnpike site, several projects with specific start dates are now "tbd" after the Delaware bridge closure, I hope that the Irwin to New Kensington section does not hit the chopping block.

From what I read, the PA Turnpike spent $1 million on contracts for this bridge; the NJ Turnpike has spent about $12 Million.  The $13 million or so will be split between the two agencies.  Add in, let's say, $2 million a week in lost revenue (according to what I read), and the PTC could have spent/lost about $50 million in total due to the bridge failure.

Believe it or not, but Turnpikes (at least the NJ Turnpike) has insurance against such issues.  If it's worth it to them, based on the plans and deductibles, they can recoup some of the money lost.

The PTC earned about $1.05 Billion in FY 16 (June 1, 2015 - May 31, 2016).  $450 Million of that went to PennDOT.  Maybe PennDOT would find in their hearts to reduce the Act 44 payment this year by the $25 million or whatever was lost to assist the PTC.  Overall, it shouldn't delay/defer too many construction projects.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 09, 2017, 08:46:05 AM
And hopefully not learn the answer when next one fails... Some mysteries go unsolved, but I would also setup some monitoring to keep an eye on the thing...
Well, they thoroughly scoured the bridge for evidence of more similar plug welds, so the fact it's reopening so quickly suggests it's not going to be a problem.
I still don't believe those plugs were the root cause.

A licensed engineer I have spoken with feels that the plug welds were a contributing factor. 

Might a badly overweight truck have been the factor that triggered the fracture?  Possibly, as there was at least one media report describing a loud bang sometime in December from the  vicinity of the bridge.
They were a contributing factor beyond any doubt. But there had to be some other factors, some reason for high stress.. Structure was fine for 50+ years, and then decided to fail... It doesn't look deteriorated....
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 09, 2017, 05:47:30 PM
The PA/NJ Turnpike Bridge is opening tonight! http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/Turnpike-bridge-over-the-Delaware-will-reopen-tonight-cracked-truss-repaired.html?mobi=true
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 09, 2017, 06:35:59 PM
In the article it is stated that the bridge will reopen to car traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 09, 2017, 07:21:07 PM
In the article it is stated that the bridge will reopen to car traffic.

Yeah J&N, did you even bother to read past the headline???

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on March 09, 2017, 07:37:14 PM
The PA/NJ Turnpike Bridge is opening tonight! http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/Turnpike-bridge-over-the-Delaware-will-reopen-tonight-cracked-truss-repaired.html?mobi=true


Quote
“Everyone feels very sure it’s going to be able to support weight,”  DeFebo said.

Somehow that statement lacks something in reassurance.  You go first, buddy.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 09, 2017, 07:40:23 PM
Limiting bridge traffic to automobiles eliminates the danger of overloading the structure.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 09, 2017, 07:43:56 PM
Limiting bridge traffic to automobiles eliminates the danger of overloading the structure.
Another quote from the article:
Quote
if weight is confirmed as a factor in the crack officials would consider adjusting police enforcement to prevent trucks that exceed the bridge’s weight limits from crossing.
That sounds to me as if trucks are / maybe / will be allowed..
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 09, 2017, 08:04:21 PM
Limiting bridge traffic to automobiles eliminates the danger of overloading the structure.
Another quote from the article:
Quote
if weight is confirmed as a factor in the crack officials would consider adjusting police enforcement to prevent trucks that exceed the bridge’s weight limits from crossing.
That sounds to me as if trucks are / maybe / will be allowed..

Maybe they need a weigh station in NJ prior to the bridge.

FWIW, though, the press release from the PTC doesn't mention restricting the bridge to cars.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170309180253.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 09, 2017, 09:40:16 PM
In the article it is stated that the bridge will reopen to car traffic.

Yeah J&N, did you even bother to read past the headline???

ixnay

When you read news articles, you need to understand that these articles are written by people that have absolutely no knowledge of the situation, quickly type out a story, and rush it past an editor before it's posted online.

I actually saw a tv news story about the bridge before I pulled up the newspaper story. Along with the press releases on the NJ & PA Turnpikes, not a single other story said car traffic only.

Also, if you think it's only going to be open to car traffic, do you really think a single mention of it in a single article will suffice? Do you think that it would be a pretty big issue to try to limit an interstate highway bridge to just cars? Imagine the enforcement and manpower required to limit such a bridge to just cars.

Seriously...use your fricken heads and surmise that the 'car' part was written by a hurried reporter..and look at the overall big picture that not a single other mention of a truck limitation or weight limitation was mentioned anywhere.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 10:19:20 PM
Limiting bridge traffic to automobiles eliminates the danger of overloading the structure.

It also excludes the vehicles that pay the highest tolls on both turnpikes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 10, 2017, 07:09:54 AM
KYW this morning is saying that the bridge is indeed open with no mention of any vehicle restrictions.

OTOH Google Maps is still showing the bridge as closed.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 10, 2017, 07:17:40 AM
In the article it is stated that the bridge will reopen to car traffic.

Yeah J&N, did you even bother to read past the headline???

ixnay

When you read news articles, you need to understand that these articles are written by people that have absolutely no knowledge of the situation, quickly type out a story, and rush it past an editor before it's posted online.

I actually saw a tv news story about the bridge before I pulled up the newspaper story. Along with the press releases on the NJ & PA Turnpikes, not a single other story said car traffic only.

Also, if you think it's only going to be open to car traffic, do you really think a single mention of it in a single article will suffice? Do you think that it would be a pretty big issue to try to limit an interstate highway bridge to just cars? Imagine the enforcement and manpower required to limit such a bridge to just cars.

Seriously...use your fricken heads and surmise that the 'car' part was written by a hurried reporter..and look at the overall big picture that not a single other mention of a truck limitation or weight limitation was mentioned anywhere.

Some of us don't have time for that.

For want of a nail, the horse had failed.  For want of a horse, a kingdom had fallen.  For a reporter's (lack of) want of a three-letter word, we wouldn't be having this argument.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 10, 2017, 08:14:16 AM
Fox 29 had their helicopter over the bridge with normal traffic. 

Driving on 295 over the Turnpike Extension roadway this morning, there was actually a slight slowdown...probably with people looking down at the Turnpike with what appeared to be a very normal traffic flow.  Word certainly got out quickly the bridge was open.

NJ Turnpike VMS Sigange: "WEST 276, EXIT 6 Penn Turnpike OPEN".

NJDOT Signage on some VMS signs: "NJ TURNPIKE BRIDGE TO PA REOPENED"
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 10, 2017, 08:53:32 AM
One video clip from Channel 3 (KYW) this morning showed a semi moving along on the bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on March 10, 2017, 09:27:14 AM
Also quoting from Mr. Laughlin's article in the Inquirer:

"Eight tri-axle dump trucks collectively carrying 40 tons were driven over the bridge to test the sturdiness of the repairs."

One can either read that sentence and assume that 8 trucks averaging 5 tons of load each drove over the bridge, or one can use one's brain and realize that Mr. Laughlin doesn't have very good command of the English language, and should perhaps seek another line of employment.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 10, 2017, 04:11:02 PM
KYW this morning is saying that the bridge is indeed open with no mention of any vehicle restrictions.

OTOH Google Maps is still showing the bridge as closed.

ixnay

It took awhile before Google maps showed US 11/US 15 south of Marysville as open after the closure for the rock fence project ended last June.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 10, 2017, 04:15:33 PM
KYW this morning is saying that the bridge is indeed open with no mention of any vehicle restrictions.

OTOH Google Maps is still showing the bridge as closed.

ixnay

It took awhile before Google maps showed US 11/US 15 south of Marysville as open after the closure for the rock fence project ended last June.
Proof that one should not solely rely on internet/electronic maps for info.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 10, 2017, 05:06:39 PM
KYW this morning is saying that the bridge is indeed open with no mention of any vehicle restrictions.

OTOH Google Maps is still showing the bridge as closed.

ixnay

It took awhile before Google maps showed US 11/US 15 south of Marysville as open after the closure for the rock fence project ended last June.
Proof that one should not solely rely on internet/electronic maps for info.
Do you mean paper maps were more up to date?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: billpa on March 11, 2017, 01:58:46 PM
KYW this morning is saying that the bridge is indeed open with no mention of any vehicle restrictions.

OTOH Google Maps is still showing the bridge as closed.

ixnay

It took awhile before Google maps showed US 11/US 15 south of Marysville as open after the closure for the rock fence project ended last June.
Proof that one should not solely rely on internet/electronic maps for info.
Do you mean paper maps were more up to date?
Well, my paper map has it open.

SM-T230NU

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on March 11, 2017, 03:02:03 PM
KYW this morning is saying that the bridge is indeed open with no mention of any vehicle restrictions.

OTOH Google Maps is still showing the bridge as closed.

ixnay

It took awhile before Google maps showed US 11/US 15 south of Marysville as open after the closure for the rock fence project ended last June.
Proof that one should not solely rely on internet/electronic maps for info.
Do you mean paper maps were more up to date?
Well, my paper map has it open.

SM-T230NU

And it probably never had it closed in the first place :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: bzakharin on March 11, 2017, 09:56:14 PM
As of right now, Google is very strange along that entire area. The I-95 to 276 interchange is shown as if it already exists, but shows up closed to traffic. The extension is shown closed WB but not EB. Various ramps are closed or open depending on zoom level
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Stephane Dumas on March 12, 2017, 10:54:50 AM
As of right now, Google is very strange along that entire area. The I-95 to 276 interchange is shown as if it already exists, but shows up closed to traffic. The extension is shown closed WB but not EB. Various ramps are closed or open depending on zoom level

Talk about jumping the gun and the shark with a zest of nuking the fridge. ;)

I saved a screenshot showing the interchange as if it's already there. https://archive.is/LM0dv
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 12, 2017, 12:21:25 PM
^ I saw that, too, although it doesn’t appear to be using those ramps for routing purposes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 13, 2017, 10:51:59 AM
A conventional paper road map (that shows actual interchange ramp layouts) would've shown those future interchange ramps as a dashed line; hinting that such is still under construction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 18, 2017, 08:39:45 AM
PennLIVE:  E-ZPass signal lights to disappear from the Pa. Turnpike (http://www.pennlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/03/e-zpass_lights_to_get_a_makeov.html#incart_most-read_)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike will be getting rid of the familiar red, yellow and green traffic lights used to tell E-ZPass drivers that their transponders are working correctly.

Starting March 17, the Turnpike Commission will gradually replace the lights with more simplified signage due to a change in federal guidelines. The old signals glowed green when the transponder was working and yellow when the customer's balance was low.

I am unsure how to react to this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2017, 09:38:26 AM
PennLIVE:  E-ZPass signal lights to disappear from the Pa. Turnpike (http://www.pennlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/03/e-zpass_lights_to_get_a_makeov.html#incart_most-read_)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike will be getting rid of the familiar red, yellow and green traffic lights used to tell E-ZPass drivers that their transponders are working correctly.

Starting March 17, the Turnpike Commission will gradually replace the lights with more simplified signage due to a change in federal guidelines. The old signals glowed green when the transponder was working and yellow when the customer's balance was low.

I am unsure how to react to this.

Any idea what the new federal guideline is?  It would've been nice for the article to kinda mention that little factoid.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on March 18, 2017, 11:12:43 AM
4K.01 Paragraph 02 of the 2009 MUTCD (which is only a should statement, and not really new anymore)?

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD
Traffic control signals or devices that closely resemble traffic control signals that use red or green circular indications should not be used for new or reconstructed installations at toll plazas to indicate the success or failure of electronic toll payments or to alternately direct drivers making cash toll payments to stop and then proceed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beeper1 on March 18, 2017, 12:16:07 PM
It will probably look like the "EZ-Pass GO"  / "Low Bal" display signs that a number of NY Thruway plazas have
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 18, 2017, 01:03:20 PM
It will probably look like the "EZ-Pass GO"  / "Low Bal" display signs that a number of NY Thruway plazas have


Or the little CMS displays NJ has at its booths.  They normally say "E-ZPass Paid" when a transaction is successful and probably say something like "Call E-ZPass" or "Bal Low" when there is an issue.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 18, 2017, 06:38:20 PM
It will probably look like the "EZ-Pass GO"  / "Low Bal" display signs that a number of NY Thruway plazas have

Except those signs supplement the traffic lights at MOST toll booths on the Thruway.  The PTC ones would presumably be stand-alone.  In any case, I don't see why the PTC would spend the money when they're supposed to be going all electronic soon.  Looks like Act 44 isn't the only thing bleeding the agency dry - this would seem to indicate that financial mismanagement is a big problem too.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on March 19, 2017, 09:45:31 AM
Quote
"Signal light technology currently in use has become outdated and cumbersome," said PTC Chief Operating Officer Craig Shuey. "As the Commission prepares to update toll equipment in the lanes with more modern hardware and software, we are incorporating new federal signage standards. While the removal of signals may cause some initial confusion, it will soon become the norm as our customers adjust to the change."

It seems to me that they are not replacing the signals just for the sake of replacing the signals...but related to other changes which may make these signal changes actually cost efficient. 

And the article mentioned that this will be gradual...not an immediate widespread change.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 19, 2017, 10:52:32 AM
4K.01 Paragraph 02 of the 2009 MUTCD (which is only a should statement, and not really new anymore)?

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD
Traffic control signals or devices that closely resemble traffic control signals that use red or green circular indications should not be used for new or reconstructed installations at toll plazas to indicate the success or failure of electronic toll payments or to alternately direct drivers making cash toll payments to stop and then proceed.

I assume they’re specifically referring to the vertical R-Y-G signal that’s located at roughly torso height beside the booth where a toll taker would normally be stationed. But there are two other sets of circular red and green lights at nearly all of the PA Turnpike’s traditional toll lanes.

Mounted on a gantry ahead of the toll plaza, there’s a VMS that indicate the lane’s current status (E-ZPass/NO TICKETS, TICKETS AND E-ZPass, LANE CLOSED), above which is a horizontally oriented R-Y-G traffic signal. The light flashes yellow for E-ZPass only, is steady green if tickets are accepted, and steady red if the lane is closed.

And in addition to that, flush mounted on the toll plaza canopy itself is a horizontal R-G light assembly that stays steady green if the lane is open for that direction of travel and red if closed.

These other signals don’t specifically “indicate the success or failure of electronic toll payments” , but I wonder if these are the appropriate signals in these applications. Wouldn’t the green downward arrow/red X be more correct?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2017, 12:01:17 PM
Still, the article referring to 'MUTCD Compliant' controls, which specifically hasn't been named nor indicated as to what that is.  I've mentioned my issues with reporters not knowing what they're talking about in the past, so this could be one of those instances.  It appears they're really get rid of non-compliant controls and signage, which is the traffic signal, and just have to use something that isn't prohibited by the MUTCD. 

Several agencies have used the traffic signal in the past, although it appears they are doing away with it in some form.  I believe in Maryland on I-95, they simply leaves theirs on green.  The DRBA had both a traffic light and sign; I believe they are only using the sign now (although they tend to change so often it's hard to keep up with what they're doing).  The AC Expressway uses a 2 headed R/G signal.  The DRPA bridges uses a high-speed gate and something...I don't think I've actually looked at the sign in years since I'm only worried about the gate going up.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 19, 2017, 04:10:31 PM
Quote
"Signal light technology currently in use has become outdated and cumbersome," said PTC Chief Operating Officer Craig Shuey. "As the Commission prepares to update toll equipment in the lanes with more modern hardware and software, we are incorporating new federal signage standards. While the removal of signals may cause some initial confusion, it will soon become the norm as our customers adjust to the change."

It seems to me that they are not replacing the signals just for the sake of replacing the signals...but related to other changes which may make these signal changes actually cost efficient. 

And the article mentioned that this will be gradual...not an immediate widespread change.
Even so, why invest anything in the existing booths when they're switching to AET soon?  Or did that get cancelled?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 19, 2017, 05:31:49 PM
4K.01 Paragraph 02 of the 2009 MUTCD (which is only a should statement, and not really new anymore)?

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD
Traffic control signals or devices that closely resemble traffic control signals that use red or green circular indications should not be used for new or reconstructed installations at toll plazas to indicate the success or failure of electronic toll payments or to alternately direct drivers making cash toll payments to stop and then proceed.
If the signals reached the end of their useful lives, it makes more sense to replace them with one of those blankout signs than put up new signals, based on MUTCD. If this was any other state/agency, I'd probably assume that was the case. This being PA, who knows!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on March 19, 2017, 05:33:39 PM
4K.01 Paragraph 02 of the 2009 MUTCD (which is only a should statement, and not really new anymore)?

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD
Traffic control signals or devices that closely resemble traffic control signals that use red or green circular indications should not be used for new or reconstructed installations at toll plazas to indicate the success or failure of electronic toll payments or to alternately direct drivers making cash toll payments to stop and then proceed.
If the signals reached the end of their useful lives, it makes more sense to replace them with one of those blankout signs than put up new signals, based on MUTCD. If this was any other state/agency, I'd probably assume that was the case. This being PA, who knows!

But all at once? You'd think they'd do like NYSTA and replace with blankout signs as signals fail. But again, this is Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
Quote
"Signal light technology currently in use has become outdated and cumbersome," said PTC Chief Operating Officer Craig Shuey. "As the Commission prepares to update toll equipment in the lanes with more modern hardware and software, we are incorporating new federal signage standards. While the removal of signals may cause some initial confusion, it will soon become the norm as our customers adjust to the change."

It seems to me that they are not replacing the signals just for the sake of replacing the signals...but related to other changes which may make these signal changes actually cost efficient. 

And the article mentioned that this will be gradual...not an immediate widespread change.
Even so, why invest anything in the existing booths when they're switching to AET soon?  Or did that get cancelled?

I wonder how soon that'll truly be.  The NJ/PA Turnpike is probably a good trial to see how many actually pay those bills.  If there's a significant non-collection of those payments, I'd think the PTC will hold off until they figure out how to improve on those collections.

Also, remember they just built a new toll plaza for tickets/cash payments just west of I-95, so I think they know there's probably going to be a bit of time before the conversion occurs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 19, 2017, 05:59:10 PM
I wonder how soon that'll truly be.  The NJ/PA Turnpike is probably a good trial to see how many actually pay those bills.  If there's a significant non-collection of those payments, I'd think the PTC will hold off until they figure out how to improve on those collections.

Also, remember they just built a new toll plaza for tickets/cash payments just west of I-95, so I think they know there's probably going to be a bit of time before the conversion occurs.

The original plan by  PTC was to build a cash/E-ZPass toll plaza for traffic coming west (I-95 south) off the bridge between the bridge landing and Exit 358 (U.S. 13). It would presumably have been similar to the eastbound barrier (GSV here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B054'14.7%22N+80%C2%B029'43.4%22W/@40.9040736,-80.4955171,3a,75y,111.65h,75.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D211.16206%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.904076!4d-80.49539)) entering the Pennsylvania Turnpike from the Ohio Turnpike in Lawrence County.

Then PTC announced that they  were going to transition to all-cashless tolling, and the question was (IMO properly) asked - "why build a new plaza that accepts cash west of the Delaware River when we are going to convert to all electronic toll collection?" and the result was the no-cash toll point that's there now.

Things may get more interesting (in terms of unpaid/uncollectable tolls) once I-95 is completed near here in Bristol, and more "thru" I-95 southbound traffic from non-E-ZPass states starts to come through.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MrDisco99 on March 20, 2017, 07:16:43 AM
The original plan by  PTC was to build a cash/E-ZPass toll plaza for traffic coming west (I-95 south) off the bridge between the bridge landing and Exit 358 (U.S. 13). It would presumably have been similar to the eastbound barrier (GSV here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B054'14.7%22N+80%C2%B029'43.4%22W/@40.9040736,-80.4955171,3a,75y,111.65h,75.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D211.16206%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.904076!4d-80.49539)) entering the Pennsylvania Turnpike from the Ohio Turnpike in Lawrence County.

Curious... When did the ticket system on the west side of the turnpike move to Warrendale?  What was the rationale behind that and the one way toll at Gateway?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 20, 2017, 08:57:34 AM
The original plan by  PTC was to build a cash/E-ZPass toll plaza for traffic coming west (I-95 south) off the bridge between the bridge landing and Exit 358 (U.S. 13). It would presumably have been similar to the eastbound barrier (GSV here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B054'14.7%22N+80%C2%B029'43.4%22W/@40.9040736,-80.4955171,3a,75y,111.65h,75.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D211.16206%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.904076!4d-80.49539)) entering the Pennsylvania Turnpike from the Ohio Turnpike in Lawrence County.
Curious... When did the ticket system on the west side of the turnpike move to Warrendale?  What was the rationale behind that and the one way toll at Gateway?
The move took place just over a year ago and the rationale for the one-way toll at the bridge was to match/mimic what has been done at the other tolled Delaware River crossings. Oops, I thought the question was for the eastern gateway (from Delaware Valley (US 13) to just east of Bensalem (US 1)).

Quote from: Emily Litella
Never mind!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 20, 2017, 09:27:59 AM
Curious... When did the ticket system on the west side of the turnpike move to Warrendale?  What was the rationale behind that and the one way toll at Gateway?

It moved sometime between 2000 and 2008 (not sure when). This (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2005/07/31/Pa-Turnpike-adopts-one-way-tolling-at-Gateway-Plaza/stories/200507310282) from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette in 2005 discusses some of the relevant dates associated with the west end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

As I understand it, the locals (Cranberry Township) were tired of the breezewood at the junction of I-76 (the East-West Mainline of the Pennsylvania Turnpike) and I-79 (when  the breezewood was there, traffic had to use a section of U.S. 19 to get between I-76 and I-79).  As part of the elimination of that breezewood, the ticket system's west terminus was moved to a point just east of I-79, and the old Gateway toll plaza was converted to a one-way barrier toll for traffic entering Pennsylvania from Ohio.

I speculate that this might also have had to do with the inability of the side toll plaza at U.S. 19 not being able to handle the traffic entering and especially exiting the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 20, 2017, 09:32:46 AM
The original plan by  PTC was to build a cash/E-ZPass toll plaza for traffic coming west (I-95 south) off the bridge between the bridge landing and Exit 358 (U.S. 13). It would presumably have been similar to the eastbound barrier (GSV here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B054'14.7%22N+80%C2%B029'43.4%22W/@40.9040736,-80.4955171,3a,75y,111.65h,75.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DMaJ988U1lgSFv7KBwWJaKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D211.16206%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.904076!4d-80.49539)) entering the Pennsylvania Turnpike from the Ohio Turnpike in Lawrence County.
Curious... When did the ticket system on the west side of the turnpike move to Warrendale?  What was the rationale behind that and the one way toll at Gateway?
The move took place just over a year ago and the rationale for the one-way toll at the bridge was to match/mimic what has been done at the other tolled Delaware River crossings.

Actually, it took place way back in 2003, so we're talking nearly 14 years now!  There was a series of changes that occurred over the next few years after that, including widening toll plazas and installing express EZ Pass lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on March 20, 2017, 10:17:11 AM
Curious... When did the ticket system on the west side of the turnpike move to Warrendale?  What was the rationale behind that and the one way toll at Gateway?

It moved sometime between 2000 and 2008 (not sure when). This (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2005/07/31/Pa-Turnpike-adopts-one-way-tolling-at-Gateway-Plaza/stories/200507310282) from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette in 2005 discusses some of the relevant dates associated with the west end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

 As part of the elimination of that breezewood, the ticket system's west terminus was moved to a point just east of I-79, and the old Gateway toll plaza was converted to a one-way barrier toll for traffic entering Pennsylvania from Ohio.


IIRC, the entire Westgate toll barrier was completely rebuilt (eastbound & westbound) only a few years before they decided to tear down the "new" westbound booths (wasting money there) and turning the eastbound border entrance into a flat-rate-per-class toll barrier.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on March 20, 2017, 10:18:35 AM
Per the PA Turnpike News Release:
Quote
As the PTC replaces its equipment with enhanced technology, customers may temporarily see the decommissioned light stations wrapped in yellow plastic at certain Harrisburg-area interchanges and at “E-ZPass Only”  interchanges north and east of Philadelphia. Thereafter, the signals – which have been in service since E-ZPass was launched in 2001 – will go away at several interchanges each month until the upgrade is completed by the end of 2017.

As far as the conversion to AET...I would imagine that if it were decided and approved TODAY, to design the construction plans to do the conversions, and then actually bid those out, and start construction...would take what - 10 years in PTC terms? And I don't get the impression that the decision to go AET is imminent. So, if this is an upgrade to cover the next 10 years...that may actually make sense.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 20, 2017, 10:33:47 AM
Actually, it took place way back in 2003, so we're talking nearly 14 years now!  There was a series of changes that occurred over the next few years after that, including widening toll plazas and installing express EZ Pass lanes.
Monday-morning brain freeze at work.  I thought MrDisco99 was asking about the Turnpike's eastern end conversions.  I've since corrected my earlier post.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on March 20, 2017, 04:25:04 PM
Curious... When did the ticket system on the west side of the turnpike move to Warrendale?  What was the rationale behind that and the one way toll at Gateway?

It moved sometime between 2000 and 2008 (not sure when). This (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2005/07/31/Pa-Turnpike-adopts-one-way-tolling-at-Gateway-Plaza/stories/200507310282) from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette in 2005 discusses some of the relevant dates associated with the west end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

 As part of the elimination of that breezewood, the ticket system's west terminus was moved to a point just east of I-79, and the old Gateway toll plaza was converted to a one-way barrier toll for traffic entering Pennsylvania from Ohio.


IIRC, the entire Westgate toll barrier was completely rebuilt (eastbound & westbound) only a few years before they decided to tear down the "new" westbound booths (wasting money there) and turning the eastbound border entrance into a flat-rate-per-class toll barrier.

Pretty Much.  Both Warrendale & the state line plazas were built as part of the "Cranberry Connector" project to make Cranberry free-flowing.   The state line plaza was for both directions, but was always flat-rate from the first rebuilt.  The PTC did not have the right-of-way to accommodate Express EZ-Pass lanes and booths for both directions, so their solution was to demo half of it and double the tolls for EB traffic.
While early on in the history of EZ-Pass, they did think to put the room for the lanes in @ Warrendale, but waited till later to think about the state line (though I think that was done close to when they 6-laned from the plaza to the New Castle (I-376) interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2017, 09:03:40 AM
PTC press release: PA Turnpike Commission Stops Work on Mon-Fayette Expressway - Commissioners freeze project spending due to apparent lack of support. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170321083739.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2017, 09:37:46 AM
Curious... When did the ticket system on the west side of the turnpike move to Warrendale?  What was the rationale behind that and the one way toll at Gateway?

It moved sometime between 2000 and 2008 (not sure when). This (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2005/07/31/Pa-Turnpike-adopts-one-way-tolling-at-Gateway-Plaza/stories/200507310282) from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette in 2005 discusses some of the relevant dates associated with the west end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

 As part of the elimination of that breezewood, the ticket system's west terminus was moved to a point just east of I-79, and the old Gateway toll plaza was converted to a one-way barrier toll for traffic entering Pennsylvania from Ohio.


IIRC, the entire Westgate toll barrier was completely rebuilt (eastbound & westbound) only a few years before they decided to tear down the "new" westbound booths (wasting money there) and turning the eastbound border entrance into a flat-rate-per-class toll barrier.

Pretty Much.  Both Warrendale & the state line plazas were built as part of the "Cranberry Connector" project to make Cranberry free-flowing.   The state line plaza was for both directions, but was always flat-rate from the first rebuilt.  The PTC did not have the right-of-way to accommodate Express EZ-Pass lanes and booths for both directions, so their solution was to demo half of it and double the tolls for EB traffic.

I actually like the solution  they came up with, since it got rid of the breezewood at I-79.  Just wish that PTC would have service plazas on the the Turnpike someplace between the Ohio border and New Stanton. Though by  having the ticket system end at Warrendale, I suppose some drivers just exit the Turnpike at U.S. 19 (I-79) for food or fuel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 23, 2017, 10:50:18 AM
I received an email from the PTC this morning alerting me (as a PTC E-ZPass holder) about the gradual removal of payment status traffic lights from toll plazas.

Quote
IMPORTANT - Changes for PTC E-ZPass Customers

We’re writing to notify you of important changes to the E-ZPass system that will be made by the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (Commission or PTC) starting this month. The Commission will begin installing new Electronic Toll Collection (ETC) equipment at toll plazas. The new equipment will be installed incrementally through the end of the calendar year; it is part of the Commission’s strategic plan to upgrade our toll technology infrastructure.

How will this change affect me?
As the Commission prepared to update toll equipment in the lanes, we were required to incorporate new Federal Highway Administration standards. The biggest change that E-ZPass customers will notice is the removal of the Feedback Signal or Traffic Light that customers have used to verify their transponder was read. Federal guidelines prohibit the use of such signals at toll plazas. No change is ever “E-Z,”  and this one is no exception. The Commission has been advising E-ZPass customers to look for the signal over the past 16 years, and we understand their removal may cause some initial confusion.

Customers should continue to travel through E-ZPass lanes at the posted speeds for their own safety as well as the safety of our toll collectors and other motorists. If you have questions about your E-ZPass account, including whether your transponder is working properly, contact the PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center at 1.877.736.6727.

What should I do?
To minimize the impact of this change, we urge all PTC E-ZPass customers to take the following steps:
- Mount the transponder properly as required by the E-ZPass Terms of Agreement.
- Review your E-ZPass account activity monthly.
- Keep your account up-to-date including your address, license plate and payment information.

Following these steps will ensure you keep your account in good standing and avoid violations. If you replenish your E-ZPass account manually, closely monitor your account. When your account reaches low-balance status, an email will be sent advising you that a payment is required.

Other E-ZPass News
Over the last few years, the PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center has implemented several changes to improve customer service, including:
- Expanded Call-Center Hours – The PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center is open Mondays - Thursdays from 8 am to 7 pm EST and 8 am to 5 pm on Fridays. The website is available 24/7 at www.paturnpike.com.
- Add Rental Vehicles in One Step – Access your account online to add a rental vehicle. Click the button to identify it as a rental, and the system will prompt you to enter the start and end dates. Customers can also contact the PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center and speak to a representative.
- License-Plate Verification – When entering a license plate via our website, customers are now required to enter the information twice to verify it is correct and avoid erroneous toll charges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 23, 2017, 11:31:56 AM
I received an email from the PTC this morning alerting me (as a PTC E-ZPass holder) about the gradual removal of payment status traffic lights from toll plazas.

Quote
Blah Blah Blah...

The Commission has been advising E-ZPass customers to look for the signal over the past 16 years, and we understand their removal may cause some initial confusion.

Customers should continue to travel through E-ZPass lanes at the posted speeds for their own safety as well as the safety of our toll collectors and other motorists. If you have questions about your E-ZPass account, including whether your transponder is working properly, contact the PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center at 1.877.736.6727.

...blah blah blah

So, based on what I'm reading, there's going to be nothing indicating whether the toll is paid.  Which means, and this pertains to Val's points, that no extra money is going into adding something that may be removed within several years anyway.

Personally, this is how it should've been all along.  Regardless of what the signal shows, you're not supposed to be stopping in the lane in the first place.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 23, 2017, 12:38:35 PM
I received an email from the PTC this morning alerting me (as a PTC E-ZPass holder) about the gradual removal of payment status traffic lights from toll plazas.

Quote
Blah Blah Blah...

The Commission has been advising E-ZPass customers to look for the signal over the past 16 years, and we understand their removal may cause some initial confusion.

Customers should continue to travel through E-ZPass lanes at the posted speeds for their own safety as well as the safety of our toll collectors and other motorists. If you have questions about your E-ZPass account, including whether your transponder is working properly, contact the PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center at 1.877.736.6727.

...blah blah blah

So, based on what I'm reading, there's going to be nothing indicating whether the toll is paid.  Which means, and this pertains to Val's points, that no extra money is going into adding something that may be removed within several years anyway.

Personally, this is how it should've been all along.  Regardless of what the signal shows, you're not supposed to be stopping in the lane in the first place.
Once upon a time, in gated EZpass lane, my pass refused to read - and I got stuck blocking lane (gate bar in front, few cars behind, some concrete left and right) until a friendly cop took the pass and put it on a second antenna.
SOmewhere around NYC. Just saying about "not stopping"
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 23, 2017, 01:33:35 PM
I received an email from the PTC this morning alerting me (as a PTC E-ZPass holder) about the gradual removal of payment status traffic lights from toll plazas.

Quote
Blah Blah Blah...

The Commission has been advising E-ZPass customers to look for the signal over the past 16 years, and we understand their removal may cause some initial confusion.

Customers should continue to travel through E-ZPass lanes at the posted speeds for their own safety as well as the safety of our toll collectors and other motorists. If you have questions about your E-ZPass account, including whether your transponder is working properly, contact the PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center at 1.877.736.6727.

...blah blah blah

So, based on what I'm reading, there's going to be nothing indicating whether the toll is paid.  Which means, and this pertains to Val's points, that no extra money is going into adding something that may be removed within several years anyway.

Personally, this is how it should've been all along.  Regardless of what the signal shows, you're not supposed to be stopping in the lane in the first place.
Once upon a time, in gated EZpass lane, my pass refused to read - and I got stuck blocking lane (gate bar in front, few cars behind, some concrete left and right) until a friendly cop took the pass and put it on a second antenna.
SOmewhere around NYC. Just saying about "not stopping"

Gates are worse than lights.  Because now you're affecting everyone behind you, and no one can do a damn thing until someone comes over. 

The DRPA bridges have gates, but they're only there to slow you down.  Once you enter the lane, no matter if you have a valid EZ Pass or not, they'll raise up.  The DRJTBC had gates but got rid of them.

The Ohio Turnpike has them, and they're like a big "FU" to those with EZ Pass, as Ohio never wanted the system in the first place but so many people kept running the toll plaza they had to put the system in.  And those gates rise slower than molasses.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on March 23, 2017, 02:11:35 PM
I received an email from the PTC this morning alerting me (as a PTC E-ZPass holder) about the gradual removal of payment status traffic lights from toll plazas.

Quote
Blah Blah Blah...

The Commission has been advising E-ZPass customers to look for the signal over the past 16 years, and we understand their removal may cause some initial confusion.

Customers should continue to travel through E-ZPass lanes at the posted speeds for their own safety as well as the safety of our toll collectors and other motorists. If you have questions about your E-ZPass account, including whether your transponder is working properly, contact the PTC E-ZPass Customer Service Center at 1.877.736.6727.

...blah blah blah

So, based on what I'm reading, there's going to be nothing indicating whether the toll is paid.  Which means, and this pertains to Val's points, that no extra money is going into adding something that may be removed within several years anyway.

Personally, this is how it should've been all along.  Regardless of what the signal shows, you're not supposed to be stopping in the lane in the first place.
Once upon a time, in gated EZpass lane, my pass refused to read - and I got stuck blocking lane (gate bar in front, few cars behind, some concrete left and right) until a friendly cop took the pass and put it on a second antenna.
SOmewhere around NYC. Just saying about "not stopping"

Gates are worse than lights.  Because now you're affecting everyone behind you, and no one can do a damn thing until someone comes over. 

The DRPA bridges have gates, but they're only there to slow you down.  Once you enter the lane, no matter if you have a valid EZ Pass or not, they'll raise up.  The DRJTBC had gates but got rid of them.

The Ohio Turnpike has them, and they're like a big "FU" to those with EZ Pass, as Ohio never wanted the system in the first place but so many people kept running the toll plaza they had to put the system in.  And those gates rise slower than molasses.


MTABT had gates too, but with them swiftly implementing ORT so HRH Gov. Cuomo can show what a advocate of transportation he is in the state, they will soon be moot.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 23, 2017, 03:46:21 PM
PTC just launched a webpage for the last section of widening between Blue Mountain and Carlisle.

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp202to206/default.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 23, 2017, 05:50:52 PM
IMO having a prohibition on any form of notice that the toll was paid successfully is a very, very stupid policy.  What is FHWA smoking?  Do they want people to get hit with more violation notices and fees when the battery in their transponder eventually dies?  At least with the indicator, it will only happen ONCE before you find out there's a problem.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on March 23, 2017, 06:27:19 PM
IMO having a prohibition on any form of notice that the toll was paid successfully is a very, very stupid policy.  What is FHWA smoking?  Do they want people to get hit with more violation notices and fees when the battery in their transponder eventually dies?  At least with the indicator, it will only happen ONCE before you find out there's a problem.

The way the MUTCD is worded ("or devices that closely resemble traffic control signals that use red or green circularindications ") would not seem to prohibit using square indications or indications with different colors as is done in Illinois.  The blue and orange lights as seen in this streetview picture seem to work fine. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2014135,-87.8905769,3a,36.1y,170.6h,83.31t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfQmKle-NKhmOW9a1s8_szA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DfQmKle-NKhmOW9a1s8_szA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D47.764824%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 23, 2017, 06:41:07 PM
IMO having a prohibition on any form of notice that the toll was paid successfully is a very, very stupid policy.  What is FHWA smoking?  Do they want people to get hit with more violation notices and fees when the battery in their transponder eventually dies?  At least with the indicator, it will only happen ONCE before you find out there's a problem.

For the PITA that the NJ EZ Pass is with their $1 monthly fee, they are very proactive in sending out replacement EZ Passes before their batteries are expected to expire.  And if they notice a registered vehicle starts getting a bunch of no-read alerts, they'll send out replacement EZ Passes as well in case the tag went bad.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 23, 2017, 08:09:25 PM
The email posted from the PTC insinuated that they were replacing them with nothing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 23, 2017, 11:21:04 PM
PTC just launched a webpage for the last section of widening between Blue Mountain and Carlisle.

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp202to206/default.aspx

Funny how this project has just appeared on the PTC design and construction page, yet it has been underway for about 5 months.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 23, 2017, 11:55:31 PM
The email posted from the PTC insinuated that they were replacing them with nothing.
But that's not the FHWA policy, to which you initially overreacted.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on March 24, 2017, 07:52:47 AM
IMO having a prohibition on any form of notice that the toll was paid successfully is a very, very stupid policy.  What is FHWA smoking?  Do they want people to get hit with more violation notices and fees when the battery in their transponder eventually dies?  At least with the indicator, it will only happen ONCE before you find out there's a problem.

Highway-speed toll gantries don't have an indicator indicating toll was paid; they're leaving it up to the user to check their account routinely.  The EZ-Pass Only Exit 320 on the PA Turnpike doesn't have the indicators, either.   
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 24, 2017, 08:16:16 AM
IMO having a prohibition on any form of notice that the toll was paid successfully is a very, very stupid policy.  What is FHWA smoking?  Do they want people to get hit with more violation notices and fees when the battery in their transponder eventually dies?  At least with the indicator, it will only happen ONCE before you find out there's a problem.

Highway-speed toll gantries don't have an indicator indicating toll was paid; they're leaving it up to the user to check their account routinely.  The EZ-Pass Only Exit 320 on the PA Turnpike doesn't have the indicators, either.
I would hope next generation of ezpass would get an indicator. There are provisions in the chip for that, as far as I remember - limitation likely being battery powered nature of the tag.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 24, 2017, 08:36:15 AM
IMO having a prohibition on any form of notice that the toll was paid successfully is a very, very stupid policy.  What is FHWA smoking?  Do they want people to get hit with more violation notices and fees when the battery in their transponder eventually dies?  At least with the indicator, it will only happen ONCE before you find out there's a problem.

Highway-speed toll gantries don't have an indicator indicating toll was paid; they're leaving it up to the user to check their account routinely.  The EZ-Pass Only Exit 320 on the PA Turnpike doesn't have the indicators, either.
I would hope next generation of ezpass would get an indicator. There are provisions in the chip for that, as far as I remember - limitation likely being battery powered nature of the tag.

Overall, you're trying to satisfy a very large group of people that consists of:

A) Regulars that don't care at all and never look at the signage/indicator
B) Regulars/Occasional users that like the reassurance the toll was properly collected.
C) Newbees that don't know if their tag actually registered the toll (these are the people that slow down the most)

The best thing would be an indicator (visual and/or sound) on the tag itself, as it would be nearly impossible to post effective signage for highway-speed tolls.  It would also prevent the slowing down the most as people won't be looking for a sign or signal.

Me, personally, I fall into the A group.  I should do a better job of checking my statement online, but I get a paper statement every 2 months and quickly check it then for any unusual charges.  The only times I caught something was at the Delaware Memorial Bridge. Twice, they charged me for a 5 Axle Truck toll ($20) rather than the typical car toll. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 24, 2017, 08:46:40 AM
Overall, you're trying to satisfy a very large group of people that consists of:

A) Regulars that don't care at all and never look at the signage/indicator
B) Regulars/Occasional users that like the reassurance the toll was properly collected.
C) Newbees that don't know if their tag actually registered the toll (these are the people that slow down the most)

The best thing would be an indicator (visual and/or sound) on the tag itself, as it would be nearly impossible to post effective signage for highway-speed tolls.  It would also prevent the slowing down the most as people won't be looking for a sign or signal.

Me, personally, I fall into the A group.  I should do a better job of checking my statement online, but I get a paper statement every 2 months and quickly check it then for any unusual charges.  The only times I caught something was at the Delaware Memorial Bridge. Twice, they charged me for a 5 Axle Truck toll ($20) rather than the typical car toll.

Add my total mistrust to EZpass into the mix - and a bunch of critical situations like rental car in company name with personal EZpass..
 EZpass was well known for non-existing customer service, where things could take months and years  to go through (and "years" comes from personal experience). Although my last complain was resolved at amazing speed, in just over 2 weeks, all via e-mail...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on March 24, 2017, 09:28:32 AM
I've only had one issue with E-ZPass -- a bad/negative read or something like that a few years ago.  The issue was resolved to my satisfaction quickly and I haven't had any other problems since.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 24, 2017, 10:07:24 AM
Add my total mistrust to EZpass into the mix - and a bunch of critical situations like rental car in company name with personal EZpass..
 EZpass was well known for non-existing customer service, where things could take months and years  to go through (and "years" comes from personal experience). Although my last complain was resolved at amazing speed, in just over 2 weeks, all via e-mail...

This is often a State/Agency-specific issue (much like a Visa card...one Visa bank may be lousy at customer service, whereas another picks up the phone and resolves the issue the first time everytime).  NJ's first EZ Pass vendor/installer was a political favor, and along with it came bad equipment, lousy customer service, and customers getting violation notices even though they had working transponders and registered license plates.   I believe the next administration came in, changed vendors to another company who had much better success with EZ Pass, and everything was fixed.  There's been very few complaints since, although there's always going to be a few unhappy customers (and of course we'll hear one side of the story and not the other).

So, when EZ Pass had non-existing customer service, that could very well be true for one state, but other states may not have that issue.

Rental cars are a big annoyance to the EZ Pass World.  Let's say you have a car rental this week: You even register the car's license plate with EZ Pass, and de-register the plate when you return the car.  If the tag works, that's great...everything flows smoothly.  But if the tag didn't work, by the time they check the video for the car's plate, you may have already de-registered the plate, so they won't find a match.  That means the car rental agency gets the notice, and they'll hit up your card for the tolls and fees.  Also, if a previous renter of that car went thru the EZ Pass lane without a working EZ Pass, and they check the license plate during the week you have the car and have the tag registered, they'll hit your account with the toll as it's registered under your account.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 24, 2017, 10:31:02 AM
Rental cars are a big annoyance to the EZ Pass World.  Let's say you have a car rental this week: You even register the car's license plate with EZ Pass, and de-register the plate when you return the car.  If the tag works, that's great...everything flows smoothly.  But if the tag didn't work, by the time they check the video for the car's plate, you may have already de-registered the plate, so they won't find a match.  That means the car rental agency gets the notice, and they'll hit up your card for the tolls and fees.  Also, if a previous renter of that car went thru the EZ Pass lane without a working EZ Pass, and they check the license plate during the week you have the car and have the tag registered, they'll hit your account with the toll as it's registered under your account.

I’m pretty sure the E-ZPass account match-up is based on the date and time that the photo was taken–not when the highway agency gets around to processing the toll.

So far, I’ve had a 100% success rate with rental car tolls accurately posting to my E-ZPass, Florida SunPass, and California FasTrak accounts, even when I didn’t have the transponder and even when the toll doesn’t post until days after I’ve returned the rental. Likewise, I’ve never had another renter’s tolls billed to my account.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 24, 2017, 10:43:57 AM
Rental cars are a big annoyance to the EZ Pass World.  Let's say you have a car rental this week: You even register the car's license plate with EZ Pass, and de-register the plate when you return the car.  If the tag works, that's great...everything flows smoothly.  But if the tag didn't work, by the time they check the video for the car's plate, you may have already de-registered the plate, so they won't find a match.  That means the car rental agency gets the notice, and they'll hit up your card for the tolls and fees.  Also, if a previous renter of that car went thru the EZ Pass lane without a working EZ Pass, and they check the license plate during the week you have the car and have the tag registered, they'll hit your account with the toll as it's registered under your account.

I’m pretty sure the E-ZPass account match-up is based on the date and time that the photo was taken—not when the highway agency gets around to processing the toll.

They are probably looking at two systems - the first is the video/still shot of the photo.  The second is the database of customers.  If they type in a tag number and it comes up with a positive result, that's what they're going to use.  I'll find it very unlikely they're going to do any further research to determine when the tag had been registered to the license plate, which would take a considerable amount of time.   Considering how many non-reads take place (which I believe is an awful lot), these data-entry clerks simply don't have the time to dwell into every account to determine the time of a license plate registration and deregistration.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on March 24, 2017, 10:49:31 AM
Add my total mistrust to EZpass into the mix - and a bunch of critical situations like rental car in company name with personal EZpass..
 EZpass was well known for non-existing customer service, where things could take months and years  to go through (and "years" comes from personal experience). Although my last complain was resolved at amazing speed, in just over 2 weeks, all via e-mail...

This is often a State/Agency-specific issue (much like a Visa card...one Visa bank may be lousy at customer service, whereas another picks up the phone and resolves the issue the first time everytime).  NJ's first EZ Pass vendor/installer was a political favor, and along with it came bad equipment, lousy customer service, and customers getting violation notices even though they had working transponders and registered license plates.   I believe the next administration came in, changed vendors to another company who had much better success with EZ Pass, and everything was fixed.  There's been very few complaints since, although there's always going to be a few unhappy customers (and of course we'll hear one side of the story and not the other).

So, when EZ Pass had non-existing customer service, that could very well be true for one state, but other states may not have that issue.

Rental cars are a big annoyance to the EZ Pass World.  Let's say you have a car rental this week: You even register the car's license plate with EZ Pass, and de-register the plate when you return the car.  If the tag works, that's great...everything flows smoothly.  But if the tag didn't work, by the time they check the video for the car's plate, you may have already de-registered the plate, so they won't find a match.  That means the car rental agency gets the notice, and they'll hit up your card for the tolls and fees.  Also, if a previous renter of that car went thru the EZ Pass lane without a working EZ Pass, and they check the license plate during the week you have the car and have the tag registered, they'll hit your account with the toll as it's registered under your account.

My account is with NYS Thruway authority, and I got problems with both Thruway and MassPike. NYSTA is government enough to be immune to small complains, but independent enough not to be concerned about voter feedback.
Resolving less than $1 toll error is meaningless if that requires sending paper letter (as was the case with NYSTA for a while) with first class mail stamp.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 24, 2017, 01:27:20 PM
The email posted from the PTC insinuated that they were replacing them with nothing.
But that's not the FHWA policy, to which you initially overreacted.
But the PTC at the very least implied that it was, which is what I reacted based on.  I wasn't expecting the PTC to lie like that.  If they're just not replacing them with something else because they don't want to waste money on a new system prior to switching to AET (a logical decision), they should just say so, not mislead people into thinking that their hands were tied by FHWA.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 24, 2017, 01:59:44 PM
Since we're talking about it, way down on page 50 of 52 of the latest NJTA Meeting Minutes: http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/BM_Minutes_2017-02-28.pdf , the NJTA will spend up to $1 million on approximately 396 Display 'Kits', the displays being the new LED message signs for the toll lanes...which is approximately $2,500 per message display.  Also, these are just retro kits to replace the existing message signs. For the NJTA, the wiring, posts, foundations, etc are already installed.  For the PTC, they would probably have to install all of this.   If the same were to be done for the PA Turnpike, costs may be quite a bit higher due to them not having the same equipment already installed. 

The NJTA uses these displays for both EZ Pass and Cash customers. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman on March 24, 2017, 03:00:29 PM
The PA/NJ Turnpike Bridge is opening tonight! http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/Turnpike-bridge-over-the-Delaware-will-reopen-tonight-cracked-truss-repaired.html?mobi=true


Quote
“Everyone feels very sure it’s going to be able to support weight,” DeFebo said.

Somehow that statement lacks something in reassurance.  You go first, buddy.


Getting caught up on my reading of Pennsylvania Turnpike press releases, and noted this in the blurb about the Delaware River Bridge re-opening:

Quote
“The repaired truss member is now much sturdier than the original because of the splice,”  Heigel explained.

Let's hope that statement isn't actually true, or we can expect the bridge to be closed again within a year because of failure of a different truss section (like happened with the old Charles River Crossing in Boston in the mid-1980s)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on April 07, 2017, 06:36:06 PM
Between Exits 242 and 247, the current setup is 2 lanes each way with Trucks/Buses only allowed in the left lane due to the work zone...does this reverse the normal left lane passing/right lane travel rule?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 07, 2017, 07:26:52 PM
Between Exits 242 and 247, the current setup is 2 lanes each way with Trucks/Buses only allowed in the left lane due to the work zone...does this reverse the normal left lane passing/right lane travel rule?
This setup is common when traffic is rerouted onto right shoulders. Most states build shoulders thinner than travel lanes, so they want heavier vehicles to stay in the lane that was built better.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on April 07, 2017, 08:58:26 PM
This was discussed previously in this thread. Check up-thread for a good explanation. (Hint:It has to do with both the durability and undulating nature of the shoulder.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 08, 2017, 12:01:21 AM
This was discussed previously in this thread. Check up-thread for a good explanation. (Hint:It has to do with both the durability and undulating nature of the shoulder.)

There's 71 pages In this topic. If you're going to tell someone to look upthread, you're gonna have to be more specific.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on April 08, 2017, 12:24:26 AM
Between Exits 242 and 247, the current setup is 2 lanes each way with Trucks/Buses only allowed in the left lane due to the work zone...does this reverse the normal left lane passing/right lane travel rule?
This setup is common when traffic is rerouted onto right shoulders. Most states build shoulders thinner than travel lanes, so they want heavier vehicles to stay in the lane that was built better.
This was discussed previously in this thread. Check up-thread for a good explanation. (Hint:It has to do with both the durability and undulating nature of the shoulder.)
How does either of these posts address the question of whether one should pass on the left or the right in these work zones?

Between Exits 242 and 247, the current setup is 2 lanes each way with Trucks/Buses only allowed in the left lane due to the work zone...does this reverse the normal left lane passing/right lane travel rule?
I would treat it that way, though I had the misfortune of being stuck behind someone who clearly believed the opposite (to the point of slowing down when the truck in the left lane did to avoid passing it) when I was last on the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 08, 2017, 01:54:39 PM
Generally, most state laws allow passing in any lane.  If you could only pass to the left, and the guy in the left lane was doing 50 mph in a 70 zone, that would suck for everyone as no one could legally pass the slowpoke if passing to the right wasn't permitted.

I think some people are also freaked out by those PA Turnpike construction zones, and didn't want to get stuck between the truck and the guardrail/concrete barrier.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on April 08, 2017, 07:57:08 PM
Believe it or not Connecticut used to have a law prohibiting passing on the right. It was conspicuously posted on the Merritt Parkway when you crossed into Connecticut from New York. As young driver circa 1971, I actually asked a Connecticut trooper about it and he said if you were behind a slow moving car in the left lane, to just blow your horn at him until he moves to the right. But that, yes you could not pass on the right in Connecticut. Don't know when that law was abolished, but from about 1988 on, I never saw those signs again.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on April 08, 2017, 11:31:52 PM
Since we're talking about it, way down on page 50 of 52 of the latest NJTA Meeting Minutes: http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/BM_Minutes_2017-02-28.pdf , the NJTA will spend up to $1 million on approximately 396 Display 'Kits', the displays being the new LED message signs for the toll lanes...which is approximately $2,500 per message display.  Also, these are just retro kits to replace the existing message signs. For the NJTA, the wiring, posts, foundations, etc are already installed.  For the PTC, they would probably have to install all of this.   If the same were to be done for the PA Turnpike, costs may be quite a bit higher due to them not having the same equipment already installed. 

The NJTA uses these displays for both EZ Pass and Cash customers. 

They're just replacing the flipdot displays inside the existing housings that are at every toll booth. They use orange LED's which are compatible with the existing control systems to display the messages. According to this article (http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2015/06/changes_coming_to_the_signs_that_tell_you_if_your_toll_was_paid_at_nj_toll_plazas.html), the original manufacturer stopped making the parts in 2007 so they could not be fixed anymore, so they're being updated.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on April 09, 2017, 07:45:46 PM
This was discussed previously in this thread. Check up-thread for a good explanation. (Hint:It has to do with both the durability and undulating nature of the shoulder.)

There's 71 pages In this topic. If you're going to tell someone to look upthread, you're gonna have to be more specific.

No, I don't. If I don't have time to search myself, I can at least point someone in the right general direction and not feel bad about it. Feel free to provide more specific direction yourself.

Turns out though, as other contributors here have noted, I may have misunderstood the thrust of sbeaver's original question anyway. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on April 09, 2017, 09:21:43 PM
Forgot to post this earlier...

On the last leg of my trip from Tampa to Philadelphia, I entered the PA Turnpike at Middlesex, and I noticed that the R-Y-G signals for E-ZPass status had been covered over in yellow plastic. I knew that the PTC had planned to phase out the lights over time, but I didn’t know they intended to deactivate them at once.

This development was actually relevant to my trip.

It’s my understanding that a personal E-ZPass transponder can be used for only the lowest vehicle classes (basically passenger cars and light trucks), so I already anticipated that I wouldn’t be able to use it on a 26,000-lb. truck and would therefore need to pay cash.

So as I approached the toll plaza, I used a lane designated for tickets, but when I approached the ticket dispenser, nothing came out. I pressed the “call for assistance”  button, and an attendant came out to my lane. He said that the E-ZPass sensors had read a transponder–apparently, it read the old, yellowed, 15-year-old E-ZPass transponder mounted in my car, which was trailered some 30+ feet behind the front of the truck. But without any kind of a status indicator, I had no idea that the equipment had detected the transponder. (I felt nearly certain it wouldn’t.)

The attendant insisted I could use my E-ZPass, but since the PTC’s website specifically said that I could not, I didn’t want to be faced a toll violation or lost ticket toll in Valley Forge, so I insisted on getting a paper ticket. He ducked into the lane’s vacant toll taker booth and handed me a paper ticket from the top of a stack sitting inside. When I exited at Valley Forge, I paid the cash toll and went on my way. I checked my E-ZPass account later, and it shows entry at Carlisle and exit at Valley Forge with a toll of $0.


(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3889/33557805890_689cac5861_c.jpg)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on April 09, 2017, 09:33:21 PM
 When you first receive an E-Z Pass, included with it is a clear plastic envelope to store it in when you don't want it to be read by the toll-booth equipment. I believe the instructions say that putting in that envelope is the only positive way to prevent the experience that you had. Ya' can't miss a trick. ;-)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 09, 2017, 10:00:12 PM
Also...using that picture above, you can see the transponder readers are back under the entry signs, which is why it read your towed car's EZ Pass before you reached the actual booth.

No, I don't. If I don't have time to search myself, I can at least point someone in the right general direction and not feel bad about it. Feel free to provide more specific direction yourself.

This is like the people in online newspaper comment sections, where they try making some obscene or obscure point without any proof of its accuracy...then when other people question it, they throw the blame on them, telling them to look it up.

It literally takes as much time to research and link the actual post, as it does to write the comment that you don't have the time to research your thought for accuracy.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on April 09, 2017, 10:18:16 PM
Also...using that picture above, you can see the transponder readers are back under the entry signs, which is why it read your towed car's EZ Pass before you reached the actual booth.

No, I don't. If I don't have time to search myself, I can at least point someone in the right general direction and not feel bad about it. Feel free to provide more specific direction yourself.

This is like the people in online newspaper comment sections, where they try making some obscene or obscure point without any proof of its accuracy...then when other people question it, they throw the blame on them, telling them to look it up.

It literally takes as much time to research and link the actual post, as it does to write the comment that you don't have the time to research your thought for accuracy.

No, it would've taken substantially longer and I was nearly out the door. Howzabout I decide how long it takes me to type versus search through the thread?

I made a quick judgment call to do something I thought would be at least a little helpful and don't appreciate you criticizing me for it. So just put down the hair-trigger and we'll all be fine.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on April 09, 2017, 11:20:39 PM
Also...using that picture above, you can see the transponder readers are back under the entry signs, which is why it read your towed car's EZ Pass before you reached the actual booth.

No, I don't. If I don't have time to search myself, I can at least point someone in the right general direction and not feel bad about it. Feel free to provide more specific direction yourself.

This is like the people in online newspaper comment sections, where they try making some obscene or obscure point without any proof of its accuracy...then when other people question it, they throw the blame on them, telling them to look it up.

It literally takes as much time to research and link the actual post, as it does to write the comment that you don't have the time to research your thought for accuracy.

No, it would've taken substantially longer and I was nearly out the door. Howzabout I decide how long it takes me to type versus search through the thread?

I made a quick judgment call to do something I thought would be at least a little helpful and don't appreciate you criticizing me for it. So just put down the hair-trigger and we'll all be fine.
You're in the wrong here, so how about we just stop this discussion and go back to the topic plzkthx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on April 09, 2017, 11:46:30 PM
Also...using that picture above, you can see the transponder readers are back under the entry signs, which is why it read your towed car's EZ Pass before you reached the actual booth.

No, I don't. If I don't have time to search myself, I can at least point someone in the right general direction and not feel bad about it. Feel free to provide more specific direction yourself.

This is like the people in online newspaper comment sections, where they try making some obscene or obscure point without any proof of its accuracy...then when other people question it, they throw the blame on them, telling them to look it up.

It literally takes as much time to research and link the actual post, as it does to write the comment that you don't have the time to research your thought for accuracy.

No, it would've taken substantially longer and I was nearly out the door. Howzabout I decide how long it takes me to type versus search through the thread?

I made a quick judgment call to do something I thought would be at least a little helpful and don't appreciate you criticizing me for it. So just put down the hair-trigger and we'll all be fine.
You're in the wrong here, so how about we just stop this discussion and go back to the topic plzkthx

Not convinced, but whatever...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on April 10, 2017, 09:36:39 PM

It’s my understanding that a personal E-ZPass transponder can be used for only the lowest vehicle classes (basically passenger cars and light trucks), so I already anticipated that I wouldn’t be able to use it on a 26,000-lb. truck and would therefore need to pay cash.


I ordered one from New York that was meant for RV/Motor Home with dual rear tires, and used it on a mid size Penske truck.  Not only did it work fine on the PA Turnpike, I was only charged the normal passenger car rate (to my surprise).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on April 11, 2017, 07:45:08 AM
This was discussed previously in this thread. Check up-thread for a good explanation. (Hint:It has to do with both the durability and undulating nature of the shoulder.)

There's 71 pages In this topic. If you're going to tell someone to look upthread, you're gonna have to be more specific.

No, I don't. If I don't have time to search myself, I can at least point someone in the right general direction and not feel bad about it. Feel free to provide more specific direction yourself.

Turns out though, as other contributors here have noted, I may have misunderstood the thrust of sbeaver's original question anyway. :rolleyes:

Click on "print" at the top of this thread (on the right within the black band; it'll bring up the printable format), then click ctrl+f and type "shoulder" in the field used for words or phrases being searched.  "Shoulder" will become highlighted 94 times (by itself or as part of "shoulders").  Then go from there to find previous discussion of road shoulders.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 11, 2017, 09:44:03 PM
It’s my understanding that a personal E-ZPass transponder can be used for only the lowest vehicle classes (basically passenger cars and light trucks), so I already anticipated that I wouldn’t be able to use it on a 26,000-lb. truck and would therefore need to pay cash.

Don't you need a commercial drivers license (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/commercial-drivers-license) (CDL) to drive a truck weighing 26,001 pounds or more? Note that up to 26,000 pounds does not require a CDL.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on April 11, 2017, 10:49:16 PM
Don't you need a commercial drivers license (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/commercial-drivers-license) (CDL) to drive a truck weighing 26,001 pounds or more? Note that up to 26,000 pounds does not require a CDL.

Correct, so Penske’s largest non-CDL trucks have a nominal GVWR of 26,000 lbs.–squeaking in just under the limit.

I posted a photo of a CAT Scale ticket I got in another thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19815.msg2216704#msg2216704) I had going related to my relocation trip. The actual weight of the combination was 25,140 lbs., just over 800 shy of CDL territory.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2017, 06:12:22 AM
Don't you need a commercial drivers license (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/commercial-drivers-license) (CDL) to drive a truck weighing 26,001 pounds or more? Note that up to 26,000 pounds does not require a CDL.

Technically, you need a CDL if the truck's GVWR is 26,001 or more, not if the actual weight is 26,001 or more.

Correct, so Penske’s largest non-CDL trucks have a nominal GVWR of 26,000 lbs.–squeaking in just under the limit.

I posted a photo of a CAT Scale ticket I got in another thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19815.msg2216704#msg2216704) I had going related to my relocation trip. The actual weight of the combination was 25,140 lbs., just over 800 shy of CDL territory.

More importantly, just shy of exceeding the truck's legal limit!  If the brakes were to fail, or the vehicle was involved in an accident, and they discovered the truck was carrying more than its permitted GVWR, it could've been cited as contributing to the cause of the accident.

As it is, the 26,000 is one factor in whether a truck driver needs a CDL.  If a vehicle is being towed which is over 10,000 lbs, then the combined weight can't be over 26,000 pounds.  And if the truck requires a Haz Mat placard, or is a bus carrying 16 or more students, then the driver needs a CDL as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 12, 2017, 11:31:59 AM
Don't you need a commercial drivers license (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/commercial-drivers-license) (CDL) to drive a truck weighing 26,001 pounds or more? Note that up to 26,000 pounds does not require a CDL.

Correct, so Penske’s largest non-CDL trucks have a nominal GVWR of 26,000 lbs.–squeaking in just under the limit.

I posted a photo of a CAT Scale ticket I got in another thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19815.msg2216704#msg2216704) I had going related to my relocation trip. The actual weight of the combination was 25,140 lbs., just over 800 shy of CDL territory.

Good thinking.  Going over 26,000 pounds gross without a CDL is a remarkably bad idea. Police that enforce motor carrier size and weight laws as well as commercial vehicle safety laws are usually on the lookout for larger box trucks with a stated GVW of just under 26,001 pounds. If such a truck  scales out at 26,001 (11,794 kilos) or more (even by a few pounds), then the driver can get hit with an overweight ticket, and if he or she does not have a CDL, also gets charged with operating a CDL vehicle without one, quite probably failure to display an IFTA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fuel_Tax_Agreement) sticker and failure to have apportioned (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Registration_Plan) registration plates.

The fines for all of the above can be impressively high.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 12, 2017, 11:36:51 AM
PennLive.com: The never-ending construction project: Rebuilding the Pa. Turnpike (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/04/pa_turnpike_rebuilding_to_cont.html)

Quote
It took a small army a little less than two years to build the original Turnpike, from Irwin to the outskirts of Carlisle.

Quote
Working almost around the clock from 1938 to 1940, 18,000 men bored through the Allegheny Mountains, leveled farmers' fields and paved their way across the valleys. They contended with tunnel collapses, labor unrest and irate farmers angered over the taking of their fields, and yet moved at a remarkable pace, paving a mile a day with solid concrete slabs over the compacted earth.

Quote
It was a breathtaking pace, made possible in part by the lack of modern regulation (there were no environmental considerations or stormwater drainage systems) and construction specifications that were somewhat rudimentary -- if groundbreaking at the time -- and largely developed as the road was planned and built.

Quote
In the end it was an unprecedented ribbon of concrete, unrolled across half of Pennsylvania. It marked not just a new road, but a new way of thinking about roads.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2017, 09:26:20 AM
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: Fitzgerald to drop opposition to extending Mon-Fayette Expressway (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2017/04/15/Mon-Fayette-Expressway-extension-Fitzgerald-drop-opposition-Monroeville-Jefferson-Hills/stories/201704150055)

Quote
Allegheny County Executive Rich Fitzgerald is dropping his opposition to the proposed $2 billion Mon-Fayette Expressway extension from Jefferson Hills to Monroeville because the money can’t be used for any other projects in the Mon Valley.

Quote
Mr. Fitzgerald said Friday he would encourage the Southwestern Pennsylvania Commission to add the highway to its list of approved Transportation Improvement Projects when it meets in June. Mr. Fitzgerald, secretary-treasurer of the 10-county group, led the move to table the project last month while officials checked whether money for the highway could be used for other Mon Valley projects that would be less expensive and could be accomplished sooner than the 20-year highway plan.

Quote
Mark Compton, CEO of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, told Mr. Fitzgerald in a letter dated March 31 that the state Legislature specifically earmarked funding for the expressway extension in 2007. The commission was charged with building the 14-mile toll road.

Quote
If that project doesn’t proceed, Mr. Compton wrote, the money could be used only for other turnpike extensions – not new projects – unless the law was changed. The estimated cost of the highway, which was proposed more than 40 years ago and has gone through several design changes, is now at $2 billion, up from $1.6 billion last year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on April 18, 2017, 12:37:38 PM
Good thinking.  Going over 26,000 pounds gross without a CDL is a remarkably bad idea. Police that enforce motor carrier size and weight laws as well as commercial vehicle safety laws are usually on the lookout for larger box trucks with a stated GVW of just under 26,001 pounds.

It wouldn’t surprise me that many of the rented 22- and 26-foot box trucks are routinely (and unknowingly) loaded in excess of their GVWRs. Our truck had a 22-foot cargo box, and though it was loaded from nose-to-tail and side-to-side horizontally, it was only loaded to about two-thirds of its capacity vertically–maybe 900 cu. ft. of 1,400 total. And I wouldn’t think our belongings to be heavier or denser than average.

The 26-foot trucks are built on the same chassis as the 22s, have the same engines, and have the same nominal GVWR (26,000 lbs.), yet they provide an additional 200 cu. ft. of cargo capacity.

From a safety standpoint, though, it’s my understanding that these trucks are rather substantially under-rated to squeeze in under the non-CDL threshold and that their physical capability is much greater. Though clearly, the legal penalties for exceeding that weight limit are substantial.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on April 21, 2017, 03:24:09 PM
The Beaver Valley Expressway is scheduled to go cashless on April 30, 2017. The page they link to (which originally rolled out with the Delaware River Bridge) https://www.nocashzone.com/ also indicates they are planning on converting the Northeast Extension automated toll plazas in Spring 2018.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on May 02, 2017, 03:08:12 PM
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/04/30/cashless-tolling-beaver-valley-expressway/ (http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/04/30/cashless-tolling-beaver-valley-expressway/)

KDKA article about the cashless tolling.
It notes that since it's still a "pilot program" they aren't ripping out any toll facilities yet, so you still have to drive (without stopping) thru the booths.
Also of note, the PTC isn't planning on any extra fees/charges for the Bill-By-Plate, just the already higher cash toll (vs EZ-Pass) rate that you'd be paying with cash anyway.
The video shows a few brief glimpses of new (or modified) signs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on May 03, 2017, 09:55:23 AM
Also of note, the PTC isn't planning on any extra fees/charges for the Bill-By-Plate, just the already higher cash toll (vs EZ-Pass) rate that you'd be paying with cash anyway.

I'm genuinely shocked by that. Usually toll authorities will use that as an excuse to lump a ton of fees on top of their base fare. I guess they figure their toll rates are ridiculous enough as it is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 10, 2017, 11:32:40 AM
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/04/30/cashless-tolling-beaver-valley-expressway/ (http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/04/30/cashless-tolling-beaver-valley-expressway/)

KDKA article about the cashless tolling.

More from KDKA Newsradio-1020, this time about about PTC toll scofflaws.

Pennsylvania Turnpike To Crack Down On Toll Evaders (http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/05/09/pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-evaders/)

Quote
With a nod to a classic movie, “the Pennsylvania Turnpike is mad as &*%$ and it’s not going to take it anymore.”

Quote
For as long as tolls have been collected on the turnpike, there have been drivers trying to evade the tolls and the lost dollars are adding up.

Quote
“Two years ago, we were chasing $30 million [in unpaid tolls], and of that we were writing off on an annual basis $3.5 million,”  says PA Turnpike CEO Mark Compton. “Last year, we were chasing $40 million and we wrote off $5.4 million.”

Quote
“It continues to climb in large part due to the Delaware River Bridge, which is under the AET or cashless tolling,”  he said. “Also we have interchanges that have come onto the system that are unmanned and E-ZPass only.”
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on June 22, 2017, 04:56:42 PM
I was contacted today by the Bedford County Commissioner who is/has revived the Abandoned Turnpike Pike 2 Bike concept.  He also informed me that a Half and Full marathon will be ran on the abandoned Pike this october - including running through the tunnels. The link to the race event is here.

I may need to make time to start running again.

http://triviumracing.com/event/endoftheroad/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on June 22, 2017, 09:20:53 PM
I was contacted today by the Bedford County Commissioner who is/has revived the Abandoned Turnpike Pike 2 Bike concept.  He also informed me that a Half and Full marathon will be ran on the abandoned Pike this october - including running through the tunnels. The link to the race event is here.

I may need to make time to start running again.

http://triviumracing.com/event/endoftheroad/

I'm gonna see how many miles I can run tomorrow. If it's something more than 2 I might join you.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 23, 2017, 10:03:51 PM
Here's your chance to bid on a genuine used Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission call box.  So far, no bids on any of them (10 are up for auction).

PA Turnpike Commission: Emergency Call Boxes (http://auctionsbygov.com/General/AuctionDetail/AuctionID/12127)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on June 25, 2017, 08:39:45 PM
Earlier this week, I mentioned how there is new life and momentum on the project to create the Pike2Bike Trail. (Converting 8.5 miles of the abandoned PA Turnpike to a multi-use trail.)  In addition to the planned half and full marathons, there are car enthusiast meetings, clean up days and other events planned for fundraising and awareness.  Learn about the new progress here:

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/06/2017-sees-new-interest-and-new-promise.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on June 25, 2017, 08:46:54 PM
Earlier this week, I mentioned how there is new life and momentum on the project to create the Pike2Bike Trail. (Converting 8.5 miles of the abandoned PA Turnpike to a multi-use trail.)  In addition to the planned half and full marathons, there are car enthusiast meetings, clean up days and other events planned for fundraising and awareness.  Learn about the new progress here:

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/06/2017-sees-new-interest-and-new-promise.html
Just curious... hos is it possible to setup 26.2 mile marathon on a 8.5 mile stretch? It is almost 3 times shorter...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on June 25, 2017, 09:49:02 PM
Earlier this week, I mentioned how there is new life and momentum on the project to create the Pike2Bike Trail. (Converting 8.5 miles of the abandoned PA Turnpike to a multi-use trail.)  In addition to the planned half and full marathons, there are car enthusiast meetings, clean up days and other events planned for fundraising and awareness.  Learn about the new progress here:

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/06/2017-sees-new-interest-and-new-promise.html
Just curious... hos is it possible to setup 26.2 mile marathon on a 8.5 mile stretch? It is almost 3 times shorter...

Easy two ways, first what's known as an out and back course. And the race will start at a nearby high school and on local roads connecting to the old turnpike
Title: 2018 Toll Increase
Post by: Flyer78 on July 19, 2017, 12:27:18 PM
As per now-annual tradition:
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170718142419.htm

Quote
Because of today’s action, the most common toll for a passenger vehicle will increase next year from $1.23 to $1.30 for E-ZPass customers and from $1.95 to $2.10 for cash customers. The most common toll for a Class-5 vehicle – a prevalent tractor-trailer class – will increase from $10.17 to 10.78 for E-ZPass and from $14.45 to $15.35 for cash.

The toll increase will apply to all portions of the PA Turnpike system with these exceptions:

there will be no 2018 increase for E-ZPass or Toll-By-Plate customers at the Delaware River Bridge westbound cashless tolling point (#359) in Bucks County;

toll rates at the Keyser Avenue (#122) and Clarks Summit (#131) toll plazas on the Northeastern Extension (I-476) in Lackawanna County will not increase until April 2018 as a part of the planned conversion to cashless tolling (rates will be set closer to the conversion date using a new vehicle-classification system); and

toll rates at the Findlay Connector (PA Turnpike 576, Allegheny and Washington counties) will not increase until April 2018 as a part of the planned conversion to cashless tolling (rates will be set closer to the conversion date using a new vehicle-classification system)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on July 19, 2017, 01:37:53 PM
^ Hard to believe that it costs about $8.30 for a car to go from U.S. 130 in Florence, NJ, to U.S. 13 in Bristol, PA, on the Turnpikes.  Burlington County Bridge Commission should be thanking the turnpike authorities for the extra westbound traffic (revenue) on the Burlington-Bristol Bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 30, 2017, 05:18:40 PM
PTC did a near complete signage replacement on the section of the Mon-Fayette Expressway south of Uniontown earlier this year. I think a lot of the signage dated from its opening in 2000, so that part didn't strike me as odd.

What I did find strange is that they've replaced all of the overhead sign cantilever structures for the mainline and ramp toll plazas. They've gone to their new preferred style with a painted arched tube instead of a galvanized dual arm sign (https://goo.gl/maps/PLEjwakngpq (http://goo.gl/maps/PLEjwakngpq)) as before. It struck me as early to be replacing these signs and a likely waste of money since the toll plazas will probably be going away in a couple years with AET. Has anyone seen PTC do this elsewhere?

(Edited to fix link)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 7/8 on July 30, 2017, 07:49:09 PM
Here's the fixed link:

https://goo.gl/maps/PLEjwakngpq (http://goo.gl/maps/PLEjwakngpq)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 30, 2017, 09:00:24 PM
On the PTC wedsite under Design and Construction, the PTC has announced that they will be replacing 2 mainline bridges using the Accelerated Bridge Construction method.  One on each side of the state.  They expect in each case for the mainline to only be shut down for a weekend.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mariethefoxy on August 06, 2017, 08:38:06 PM
^ Hard to believe that it costs about $8.30 for a car to go from U.S. 130 in Florence, NJ, to U.S. 13 in Bristol, PA, on the Turnpikes.  Burlington County Bridge Commission should be thanking the turnpike authorities for the extra westbound traffic (revenue) on the Burlington-Bristol Bridge.

You want to talk criminally high toll rates, look at the port authority and the GWB/Holland Tunnel/Outerbridge/etc.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 14, 2017, 10:27:30 AM
^ Hard to believe that it costs about $8.30 for a car to go from U.S. 130 in Florence, NJ, to U.S. 13 in Bristol, PA, on the Turnpikes.  Burlington County Bridge Commission should be thanking the turnpike authorities for the extra westbound traffic (revenue) on the Burlington-Bristol Bridge.

You want to talk criminally high toll rates, look at the port authority and the GWB/Holland Tunnel/Outerbridge/etc.
True, but when the majority of the Delaware River bridge tolls from the Turnpike crossing southward range from $4 to $5; $8.30 is indeed very steep for the region.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 26, 2017, 06:50:41 PM
PennLive.com: Pa. Turnpike Commission ordered to pay former employee $1.6 million in whistleblower case (http://www.pennlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/08/pa_turnpike_ordered_to_pay_for.html)

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The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has affirmed a lower court's 2016 finding that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission wrongfully fired former employee Ralph Bailets after he challenged the work of a preferred IT contractor.

Quote
The court's order, according to Bailets' attorneys, requires the commission to pay $2.48 million, including $1.6 million for lost wages, all attorney fees stemming from his lengthy whistleblower action, and interest earned during the appeal.

Quote
The high court did grant the Turnpike Commission a partial victory, however, in agreeing to hear oral arguments on Commonwealth Court Judge Rochelle Friedman's award of an additional $1.6 million in non-economic damages to Bailets.

Quote
The commission's attorneys have argued that state law providing protection for whistleblowers does not provide for non-economic damages - money that's awarded as compensation for public humiliation, anxiety, etc.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on August 26, 2017, 08:02:45 PM
Right on! Screw those political hacks!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on September 01, 2017, 05:18:27 PM
Here's your chance to bid on a genuine used Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission call box.  So far, no bids on any of them (10 are up for auction).

PA Turnpike Commission: Emergency Call Boxes (http://auctionsbygov.com/General/AuctionDetail/AuctionID/12127)

They are about to have a lot more to sell, after the holiday weekend; they will begin to decom/remove them. (Some details: https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2017/20170830155917.htm)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ysuindy on September 19, 2017, 12:26:20 AM
On the PTC wedsite under Design and Construction, the PTC has announced that they will be replacing 2 mainline bridges using the Accelerated Bridge Construction method.  One on each side of the state.  They expect in each case for the mainline to only be shut down for a weekend.

The closing in the West will be this weekend.  Turnpike will be closed from 9 p.m. Friday to 4 a.m. Monday between I-376 (New Castle) and I-79

http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12748809-74/weekend-turnpike-closure-means-long-detour-for-motorists
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 19, 2017, 10:07:49 AM
On the PTC wedsite under Design and Construction, the PTC has announced that they will be replacing 2 mainline bridges using the Accelerated Bridge Construction method.  One on each side of the state.  They expect in each case for the mainline to only be shut down for a weekend.

The closing in the West will be this weekend.  Turnpike will be closed from 9 p.m. Friday to 4 a.m. Monday between I-376 (New Castle) and I-79

http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12748809-74/weekend-turnpike-closure-means-long-detour-for-motorists

If I was going that way, I would use the combination of I-79 and I-70 to avoid this.  It is about 50 miles on the Turnpike and the detour is about 92 miles, even though I-70 between New  Stanton and Washington, Pennsylvania is having  some construction work done but still has a high suck factor.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on September 19, 2017, 11:54:08 AM
On the PTC wedsite under Design and Construction, the PTC has announced that they will be replacing 2 mainline bridges using the Accelerated Bridge Construction method.  One on each side of the state.  They expect in each case for the mainline to only be shut down for a weekend.
The closing in the West will be this weekend.  Turnpike will be closed from 9 p.m. Friday to 4 a.m. Monday between I-376 (New Castle) and I-79
http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12748809-74/weekend-turnpike-closure-means-long-detour-for-motorists
If I was going that way, I would use the combination of I-79 and I-70 to avoid this.  It is about 50 miles on the Turnpike and the detour is about 92 miles, even though I-70 between New  Stanton and Washington, Pennsylvania is having  some construction work done but still has a high suck factor.

How about using I-79 and I-80 to bypass the segment?  That is an extra 25 miles and is all-Interstate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ysuindy on September 19, 2017, 12:05:14 PM
On the PTC wedsite under Design and Construction, the PTC has announced that they will be replacing 2 mainline bridges using the Accelerated Bridge Construction method.  One on each side of the state.  They expect in each case for the mainline to only be shut down for a weekend.
The closing in the West will be this weekend.  Turnpike will be closed from 9 p.m. Friday to 4 a.m. Monday between I-376 (New Castle) and I-79
http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12748809-74/weekend-turnpike-closure-means-long-detour-for-motorists
If I was going that way, I would use the combination of I-79 and I-70 to avoid this.  It is about 50 miles on the Turnpike and the detour is about 92 miles, even though I-70 between New  Stanton and Washington, Pennsylvania is having  some construction work done but still has a high suck factor.

How about using I-79 and I-80 to bypass the segment?  That is an extra 25 miles and is all-Interstate.

For through traffic on the Turnpikes, that is the approach to take.  Eastbound exits the Ohio Turnpike west of Youngstown on i-80 East to 79 South in Pittsburgh and then pick up the Pennsylvania Turnpike again.  Reverse the approach heading West.  Much quicker than the posted detour.



Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on September 19, 2017, 12:16:33 PM
On the PTC wedsite under Design and Construction, the PTC has announced that they will be replacing 2 mainline bridges using the Accelerated Bridge Construction method.  One on each side of the state.  They expect in each case for the mainline to only be shut down for a weekend.
The closing in the West will be this weekend.  Turnpike will be closed from 9 p.m. Friday to 4 a.m. Monday between I-376 (New Castle) and I-79
http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12748809-74/weekend-turnpike-closure-means-long-detour-for-motorists
If I was going that way, I would use the combination of I-79 and I-70 to avoid this.  It is about 50 miles on the Turnpike and the detour is about 92 miles, even though I-70 between New  Stanton and Washington, Pennsylvania is having  some construction work done but still has a high suck factor.
How about using I-79 and I-80 to bypass the segment?  That is an extra 25 miles and is all-Interstate.
For through traffic on the Turnpikes, that is the approach to take.  Eastbound exits the Ohio Turnpike west of Youngstown on i-80 East to 79 South in Pittsburgh and then pick up the Pennsylvania Turnpike again.  Reverse the approach heading West.  Much quicker than the posted detour.

Local traffic would have other issues, but from the west I-376 can be used to access most of Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 19, 2017, 03:53:02 PM
For through traffic on the Turnpikes, that is the approach to take.  Eastbound exits the Ohio Turnpike west of Youngstown on i-80 East to 79 South in Pittsburgh and then pick up the Pennsylvania Turnpike again.  Reverse the approach heading West.  Much quicker than the posted detour.

That is indeed better. I assumed the closure was at the other I-376 interchange (Penn-Lincoln Parkway).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 19, 2017, 04:23:08 PM
Long-distance traffic should just stay on I-80 to US 322 and hop on in Harrisburg. That would avoid the inevitable interchange congestion. With no traffic, difference is 15 minutes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on September 19, 2017, 05:25:25 PM
Sounds like the PTC wants to financially screw through traffic with more tolls by suggesting the 376/80/79 detour.  This includes those entering PA from the west, paying full price at the border to go one exit then more tolls on I-376 either way.  And those coming from I-79 will have to drop some coin somewhere if they follow the detour into Ohio.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 19, 2017, 06:52:26 PM
Sounds like the PTC wants to financially screw through traffic with more tolls by suggesting the 376/80/79 detour.  This includes those entering PA from the west, paying full price at the border to go one exit then more tolls on I-376 either way.  And those coming from I-79 will have to drop some coin somewhere if they follow the detour into Ohio.

Well yeah, PTC doesn't want to lose money off of this detour. Note that the closed section is free, but exiting at I-376 requires paying a toll unless you utilize PA 351. They may actually MAKE money off of this thing (as shocking as that sounds).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 19, 2017, 09:33:29 PM
Sounds like the PTC wants to financially screw through traffic with more tolls by suggesting the 376/80/79 detour.  This includes those entering PA from the west, paying full price at the border to go one exit then more tolls on I-376 either way.  And those coming from I-79 will have to drop some coin somewhere if they follow the detour into Ohio.


Well yeah, PTC doesn't want to lose money off of this detour. Note that the closed section is free, but exiting at I-376 requires paying a toll unless you utilize PA 351. They may actually MAKE money off of this thing (as shocking as that sounds).


Add to the fact I-376 has gone cashless, which is sure to cause some confusion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on September 19, 2017, 10:25:29 PM
Sounds like the PTC wants to financially screw through traffic with more tolls by suggesting the 376/80/79 detour.  This includes those entering PA from the west, paying full price at the border to go one exit then more tolls on I-376 either way.  And those coming from I-79 will have to drop some coin somewhere if they follow the detour into Ohio.

Well yeah, PTC doesn't want to lose money off of this detour. Note that the closed section is free, but exiting at I-376 requires paying a toll unless you utilize PA 351. They may actually MAKE money off of this thing (as shocking as that sounds).

I'd love to see the Ohio Turnpike screw over the PTC by having numerous VMS's prior to Youngstown advising people of the closure and to follow Exit 218 off the pike and remain on I-80 East all the way over to I-79.  Save people the extra detour mileage and outlandish tolls in the Keystone State.   :bigass:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 22, 2017, 03:15:51 PM
Sounds like the PTC wants to financially screw through traffic with more tolls by suggesting the 376/80/79 detour.  This includes those entering PA from the west, paying full price at the border to go one exit then more tolls on I-376 either way.  And those coming from I-79 will have to drop some coin somewhere if they follow the detour into Ohio.

They kind of are

https://twitter.com/OhioTurnpike/status/911292139404918784
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 22, 2017, 03:39:00 PM
They kind of are

https://twitter.com/OhioTurnpike/status/911292139404918784

Heh heh heh. WB traffic will still get screwed over, but EB is good.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 22, 2017, 08:44:28 PM
They kind of are

https://twitter.com/OhioTurnpike/status/911292139404918784

Heh heh heh. WB traffic will still get screwed over, but EB is good.

There is no toll WB when they get back on the Turnpike, but there is the electronic toll on 376.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mergingtraffic on September 22, 2017, 09:40:36 PM
The PA TPKE YouTube video says tolls are waived.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 22, 2017, 10:31:11 PM
The PA TPKE YouTube video says tolls are waived.

Guess they figure the tolls on 376 are minimal enough to take the revenue hit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on September 23, 2017, 08:43:48 AM
The PA TPKE YouTube video says tolls are waived.

I searched "Pennsylvania Turnpike" on YT and couldn't find the vid.  Would you mind linking it, please?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 23, 2017, 11:46:30 AM
The PA TPKE YouTube video says tolls are waived.

I searched "Pennsylvania Turnpike" on YT and couldn't find the vid.  Would you mind linking it, please?

ixnay

Sure

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on September 23, 2017, 12:40:07 PM
I searched "Pennsylvania Turnpike" on YT and couldn't find the vid.  Would you mind linking it, please?
ixnay
Sure

Ghaack!  A picture is worth a thousand words.  They really did recommend that routing, huh?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 23, 2017, 12:43:11 PM
Again, they don't want to lose the toll money at the Ohio border. $7/car adds up ($5 for E-ZPass).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on September 23, 2017, 12:48:59 PM
Again, they don't want to lose the toll money at the Ohio border. $7/car adds up ($5 for E-ZPass).

They just can't be that petty.  It is only for 3 days and for an extraordinary situation of a full highway closure.

Besides, a number of trips would still be best routed thru that section to I-376, such as to the central and to about 2/3 of the Pittsburgh area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 23, 2017, 12:50:00 PM
Again, they don't want to lose the toll money at the Ohio border. $7/car adds up ($5 for E-ZPass).

They just can't be that petty.  It is only for 3 days and for an extraordinary situation of a full highway closure.

Yes, they can. Act 44 means they need all the money they can get.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on September 23, 2017, 12:58:20 PM
Again, they don't want to lose the toll money at the Ohio border. $7/car adds up ($5 for E-ZPass).
They just can't be that petty.  It is only for 3 days and for an extraordinary situation of a full highway closure.
Yes, they can. Act 44 means they need all the money they can get.

If true then they should be ashamed of themselves.  What about the extra costs to motorists, their customers, if they take an unnecessarily longer route?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on September 23, 2017, 03:33:16 PM
Thanks for the vid link, Mergingtraffic.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 23, 2017, 04:41:23 PM
The biggest problem with detours is if they take people out of the way, will they know how to get back to the bypassed exits?

The best option WB would've been North to I-80, then west into Ohio.

EB is a bit trickier.  As NJDOT has told me, it's tough signing detours in advanced of the exit because people will ignore the signs.

It would be best if Ohio had their VMS signage announcing the closure to get people to use I-80 EB into PA.  For those that ignore that signage, or who enter beyond that 76/80 interchange, then the official detour route comes into effect.

Again, they don't want to lose the toll money at the Ohio border. $7/car adds up ($5 for E-ZPass).

They just can't be that petty.  It is only for 3 days and for an extraordinary situation of a full highway closure.

Yes, they can. Act 44 means they need all the money they can get.

If they were that petty, they would've claimed the NJ/PA Turnpike Bridge's crack was 'minor' and no need to close the bridge (no doubt NJTA would overrule that though). 

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 23, 2017, 05:09:40 PM
If anyone is curious about how Google/Waze is routing people right now:

Heading east, other direction is same
Destination along Turnpike west of Exit 57 (I-376 east): I-80 -> I-79 -> I-76
Exit 57 to Exit 242 (I-83): I-76 -> I-376 -> I-76
Exit 247 (I-283) and east: I-80 -> I-99 -> US 322 -> US 22 -> I-81 NB -> I-83 -> I-283 -> I-76

If you're starting between I-80 and the closure point, 376 is a better detour regardless of your destination.

From Google, 376 has more traffic than usual and Turnpike Exit 57 has some backups, but conditions on the Turnpike itself don't look too bad.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on September 24, 2017, 07:56:35 AM
Long-distance traffic should just stay on I-80 to US 322 and hop on in Harrisburg. That would avoid the inevitable interchange congestion. With no traffic, difference is 15 minutes.

Via exit 161, then taking I-99 down to 322 in State College?  State College would be slightly overshot this way.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on September 24, 2017, 01:04:26 PM
Long-distance traffic should just stay on I-80 to US 322 and hop on in Harrisburg. That would avoid the inevitable interchange congestion. With no traffic, difference is 15 minutes.

Via exit 161, then taking I-99 down to 322 in State College?  State College would be slightly overshot this way.

ixnay

That is indeed how Google and Waze is routing through traffic at this time. Supposedly 25 minutes faster than I-376 through Pittsburgh with current traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 24, 2017, 02:43:27 PM
Was the PTC smart enough to make the new bridge able to accommodate 6 lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 28, 2017, 12:43:27 PM
The PA Turnpike was ready to close down a portion of the Northeast Extension this weekend for another sliding bridge replacement.

Except...they found out the slide mechanism was misaligned!

Current timeline for the replacement may be later in October.

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-turnpike-closure-postponed-bridge-20170926-story.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on September 30, 2017, 04:14:37 PM
Very quietly, the northern section of the MM20-31 6-lane widening on the NE Ext/i-476, through Exit 31, is fully opened and completed.  I didn't see any announcements or anything. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 02, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
Very quietly, the northern section of the MM20-31 6-lane widening on the NE Ext/i-476, through Exit 31, is fully opened and completed.  I didn't see any announcements or anything.
I drove on that stretch 3 weeks ago & it was fully open/completed back then.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on October 19, 2017, 04:15:06 PM
Even though this is more in the "Ohio Valley" portion of the state, the Trib has run a story saying that the Irwin <-> Monroeville section is "on hold" due to lack of money.

Also of interest, but no real additional information, is the notion of a new ramp touching down at Arona Rd & US-30

http://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/12808786-74/plans-to-widen-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-near-irwin-on-hold (http://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/12808786-74/plans-to-widen-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-near-irwin-on-hold)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 20, 2017, 02:01:39 PM
Even though this is more in the "Ohio Valley" portion of the state, the Trib has run a story saying that the Irwin <-> Monroeville section is "on hold" due to lack of money.

Also of interest, but no real additional information, is the notion of a new ramp touching down at Arona Rd & US-30

http://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/12808786-74/plans-to-widen-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-near-irwin-on-hold (http://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/12808786-74/plans-to-widen-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-near-irwin-on-hold)

Act 44 and Act 89 strike again?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 20, 2017, 06:15:53 PM
Even though this is more in the "Ohio Valley" portion of the state, the Trib has run a story saying that the Irwin <-> Monroeville section is "on hold" due to lack of money.

Also of interest, but no real additional information, is the notion of a new ramp touching down at Arona Rd & US-30

http://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/12808786-74/plans-to-widen-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-near-irwin-on-hold (http://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/12808786-74/plans-to-widen-the-pennsylvania-turnpike-near-irwin-on-hold)

Act 44 and Act 89 strike again?

Tough to say.  As noted in the article: "Turnpike officials in 2013 had predicted the final phase of the project would begin in 2020 or 2021."  When transportation agencies around the country introduce such long timelines for projects, other things come up, and less important things get pushed back. 

Then again, maybe the fact that a 5 mile widening project in a relatively rural area will potentially cost $300 million may cause them to rethink this project a bit. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 20, 2017, 07:48:02 PM
That stretch has alot of Pittsburgh commuter traffic, has for 30 years.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on October 23, 2017, 03:00:54 PM
Then again, maybe the fact that a 5 mile widening project in a relatively rural area will potentially cost $300 million may cause them to rethink this project a bit. 

I think the 300 million is for all 10 miles between Irwin & Monroeville (that looks like they are breaking down into 2 different construction segments, instead of all at once).
I don't know that I would classify it as rural.  Part of the stretch has a fairly significant bridge over a valley, railroad tracks and at least one road (that isn't really that old, given it was replaced in the late 80's or early 90s) that is probably a big chunk of the cost.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on October 23, 2017, 08:51:08 PM
Then again, maybe the fact that a 5 mile widening project in a relatively rural area will potentially cost $300 million may cause them to rethink this project a bit. 
I think the 300 million is for all 10 miles between Irwin & Monroeville (that looks like they are breaking down into 2 different construction segments, instead of all at once).
I don't know that I would classify it as rural.  Part of the stretch has a fairly significant bridge over a valley, railroad tracks and at least one road (that isn't really that old, given it was replaced in the late 80's or early 90s) that is probably a big chunk of the cost.

$25 to $30 million per mile is typical today for PA Turnpike total reconstruction to 6 lanes projects.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 09, 2017, 09:06:11 PM
As part of my periodic surfing of the PTC website, I yesterday noted that the final design contract for the next segment of the Mon-Fayette toll road was awarded in early November.  This is for the PA51 to PA 837 segment ending near Kennywood.  IIRC, they contemplate a construction start in 20 or 21.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 10, 2017, 12:43:04 AM
PA Turnpike is raising the toll prices up 6 percent... AGAIN for the tenth straight year!!  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Article:
http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20171204/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-going-up-again-in-january
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on December 10, 2017, 09:29:31 AM
PA Turnpike is raising the toll prices up 6 percent... AGAIN for the tenth straight year!!  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Article:
http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20171204/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-going-up-again-in-january

PTC expects annual increases through 2044. They've built up a lot of debt because of transfer payments to PennDOT, and the Turnpike itself is an aging roadway with significant capital improvement needs. http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news/index.ssf/2015/07/pennsylvania_turnpike_tolls_ri.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on December 10, 2017, 09:12:28 PM
PA Turnpike is raising the toll prices up 6 percent... AGAIN for the tenth straight year!!  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Article:
http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20171204/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-going-up-again-in-january

PTC expects annual increases through 2044. They've built up a lot of debt because of transfer payments to PennDOT, and the Turnpike itself is an aging roadway with significant capital improvement needs. http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news/index.ssf/2015/07/pennsylvania_turnpike_tolls_ri.html

By then it'll be more cost efficient to drive up to I-80 to get across the state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2017, 12:34:37 AM
PA Turnpike is raising the toll prices up 6 percent... AGAIN for the tenth straight year!!  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Article:
http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20171204/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-going-up-again-in-january

PTC expects annual increases through 2044. They've built up a lot of debt because of transfer payments to PennDOT, and the Turnpike itself is an aging roadway with significant capital improvement needs. http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news/index.ssf/2015/07/pennsylvania_turnpike_tolls_ri.html

I think it's important to note that those transfer payments are not going to PennDOT to be used for anything having to do with the Pennsylvania Turnpike, but to be spent on transit subsidies across the state, starting with  SEPTA (Philadelphia) and  the Port Authority of Allegheny County (Pittsburgh).  As best as I can  tell, none of the transit service being subsidized by Turnpike customers has anything to do with the Turnpike either.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hurricane Rex on December 11, 2017, 02:16:31 AM
PA Turnpike is raising the toll prices up 6 percent... AGAIN for the tenth straight year!!  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Article:
http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20171204/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-going-up-again-in-january

PTC expects annual increases through 2044. They've built up a lot of debt because of transfer payments to PennDOT, and the Turnpike itself is an aging roadway with significant capital improvement needs. http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news/index.ssf/2015/07/pennsylvania_turnpike_tolls_ri.html

I think it's important to note that those transfer payments are not going to PennDOT to be used for anything having to do with the Pennsylvania Turnpike, but to be spent on transit subsidies across the state, starting with  SEPTA (Philadelphia) and  the Port Authority of Allegheny County (Pittsburgh).  As best as I can  tell, none of the transit service being subsidized by Turnpike customers has anything to do with the Turnpike either.
Another waste of money then. Why can't any state near the coasts seen to fit road funding right. Tolls are for that specific road, not for public transit subsidies, or at least they shouldn't be.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on December 11, 2017, 01:56:59 PM
Another waste of money then. Why can't any state near the coasts seen to fit road funding right. Tolls are for that specific road, not for public transit subsidies, or at least they shouldn't be.
Welcome to PA...  SEPTA was always the pauper before ACT 44 passed through, and I appreciate it because I take their regional rail every day.  Tripping down memory lane, the PATP wasn't in the most generous mood for expansions before ACT44.  That seems to have opened the floodgates for all sorts of expansion/reconstruction projects, since they are "allowed" to increase tolls every year without needing a new justification. 
Obviously, the gravy train will come to an end once that debt can't be financed by low interest rates, and enough people just shunpike..  So in my opinion, without the debt the turnpike would still be crying poor and we'd arguably have less expansion projects east of Harrisburg.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on December 11, 2017, 08:23:03 PM
Hurricane Rex, I believe all of the New Jersey Turnpike Authority's toll revenues stay with the roads they control, the Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway. As a result, the NJ Turnpike is extremely well engineered and maintained and it's my favorite American Autobahn.  :)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 11, 2017, 09:08:33 PM
Hurricane Rex, I believe all of the New Jersey Turnpike Authority's toll revenues stay with the roads they control, the Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway. As a a result, the NJ Turnpike is extremely well engineered and maintained and it's my favorite American Autobahn.  :)

NJTA hasn't built any extensions since the 1960s, and PTC has built 90 miles since the 1990s.  That said, the 16-mile Beaver Valley Expwy. is the only actual extension of the Turnpike, the others are off the system and are subsidized by mainline toll revenues.

PTC has made a lot of progress on the original turnpike, may reach 30% of the mileage upgraded to modern 6-lane standards in about 5 to 7 years.   That said, a lot of toll revenue is siphoned off to off-system toll highway extensions and to mass transit systems, and as SignBridge said the NJTP is built and maintained to much higher standards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2017, 11:24:16 PM
Hurricane Rex, I believe all of the New Jersey Turnpike Authority's toll revenues stay with the roads they control, the Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway. As a result, the NJ Turnpike is extremely well engineered and maintained and it's my favorite American Autobahn.  :)

The NJTA actually diverts a significant amount of money to the state.  In 2016, $294,000,000 was paid to the State from the NJTA.  See Page 42 (PDF page 54) of the audited financial statements: http://www.njta.com/media/3448/2016-annual-report-final-complete.pdf .  You'll see the line item "Payments to the State of New Jersey".  It should be noted that the payment in 2016 was down quite a bit from 2015's payment of $354 million. 

Because the NJTA is flush with money, it doesn't require the toll increases that the PA Turnpike needs to do.  However, while it still works well, there's a noticeable decline in some of the maintenance that's normally done.  In the past, one would never see ruts in the lanes.  And there's a significant amount of paving work that needs to get done in the very heavily traveled portions of the Turnpike North of Exit 14.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 12, 2017, 12:34:32 AM
NJTA hasn't built any extensions since the 1960s, and PTC has built 90 miles since the 1990s.  That said, the 16-mile Beaver Valley Expwy. is the only actual extension of the Turnpike, the others are off the system and are subsidized by mainline toll revenues.

PTC has made a lot of progress on the original turnpike, may reach 30% of the mileage upgraded to modern 6-lane standards in about 5 to 7 years.   That said, a lot of toll revenue is siphoned off to off-system toll highway extensions and to mass transit systems, and as SignBridge said the NJTP is built and maintained to much higher standards.
The NJTA built the 6-9 widening just now. From Ints. 6-8A was brand new dualized roadways in a very expensive state for new right-of-way. They've also widening large swaths of the Garden State Parkway and built several new interchanges. The key is absolutely Act 44, it has nothing to do with where the money goes in the toll system.

The NJTA actually diverts a significant amount of money to the state.  In 2016, $294,000,000 was paid to the State from the NJTA.  See Page 42 (PDF page 54) of the audited financial statements: http://www.njta.com/media/3448/2016-annual-report-final-complete.pdf .  You'll see the line item "Payments to the State of New Jersey".  It should be noted that the payment in 2016 was down quite a bit from 2015's payment of $354 million. 

Because the NJTA is flush with money, it doesn't require the toll increases that the PA Turnpike needs to do.  However, while it still works well, there's a noticeable decline in some of the maintenance that's normally done.  In the past, one would never see ruts in the lanes.  And there's a significant amount of paving work that needs to get done in the very heavily traveled portions of the Turnpike North of Exit 14.

The money that has gone to the State is for projects like Pulaski Skyway. The NJTA is only allowed to pay the state for projects that demonstrate a direct benefit to the NJTA's assets. The ARC tunnel was an example. Demonstrating the benefit is key, and individual to each project.
As for your noted lack of maintenance - there's a very good reason for that. The entire system of both Turnpike and Parkway largely dates to the early 1950s. All of the bridges are now hitting their end of lives and need significant work. So a) with such a large volume of bridges, money gets spread thinner, and b) the bridges are a much higher priority (structural integrity) than pavement quality.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mrsman on December 12, 2017, 07:10:19 PM

The money that has gone to the State is for projects like Pulaski Skyway. The NJTA is only allowed to pay the state for projects that demonstrate a direct benefit to the NJTA's assets. The ARC tunnel was an example. Demonstrating the benefit is key, and individual to each project.
As for your noted lack of maintenance - there's a very good reason for that. The entire system of both Turnpike and Parkway largely dates to the early 1950s. All of the bridges are now hitting their end of lives and need significant work. So a) with such a large volume of bridges, money gets spread thinner, and b) the bridges are a much higher priority (structural integrity) than pavement quality.

I like this approach.  There is a strong case to be made that a well designed transit project will improve traffic in the same corridor.  Same idea for highway improvements in the neighborhood of the turnpike (like maybe fixes for some incomplete interchanges between the turnpike and other expressways like I-70 and I-99).  Now for something like the PA turnpike, the parts near Philly should subsidize SEPTA.  The parts in the middle of the state probably shouldn't.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on December 12, 2017, 08:46:04 PM
J&N, Thanks for the info re: NJTA's diversion of funds to the State. I never knew they did that, and I'm very surprised to learn this. And yes, I have noticed some deteriorating pavement on the Northern sections of the Turnpike. I remember being dismayed at how unusual it was for NJTA to allow such conditions to exist......
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 24, 2017, 04:28:58 PM
According to this article, the Turnpike will be piloting a mobile payment program.  Details are unknown.

http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/12388122/after-raising-43m-passport-jumps-into-tolling-and-eyes-international-expansion
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on February 07, 2018, 08:07:14 PM
The next widening project on the NE Ext/I-476 is beginning - MM31-38.

https://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2018/20180206113455.htm (https://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2018/20180206113455.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 07, 2018, 09:11:28 PM
The next widening project on the NE Ext/I-476 is beginning - MM31-38.

https://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2018/20180206113455.htm (https://www.paturnpike.com/Press/2018/20180206113455.htm)

Will it eventually be six lanes all the way to exit 56?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 07, 2018, 09:55:12 PM
Will it eventually be six lanes all the way to exit 56?

I would be surprised if not. The PTC’s AADT stats aren’t as easily accessible as PennDOT’s, but the most recent report I could find (2015) shows a volume of roughly 64K from Mid-County to Lansdale, 50K from Lansdale to Quakertown, and 44K from Quakertown to Lehigh Valley.

If 23K on fairly flat terrain between Carlisle and Blue Mountain was enough to warrant a six-lane rebuild, I’d imagine that nearly twice the volume along the direct route between Pennsylvania’s #3 and #1 cities would warrant a similar upgrade.

Traffic volume drops by about a third north of the Lehigh Valley Interchange, so I doubt widening will extend beyond that point in the near future. Also, I previously noted that a couple of recent construction projects–the new Lehigh River bridges near Lehighton and the new Hickory Run Interchange–allow more shoulder room than previous NE Extension facilities, but neither is wide enough to accommodate six lanes. So apparently, the PTC doesn’t consider widening the road to Pocono or beyond in the cards within the serviceable life of those new facilities.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on February 08, 2018, 09:27:35 AM
Aren't Turnpike traffic counts available in PennDOT's traffic count maps?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 08, 2018, 09:37:56 AM
I had thought not, but apparently they are. In any event, PennDOT’s 2016 maps show a slight bump over the numbers in the PTC’s 2015 report: 65K, 51K, and 46K.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on February 08, 2018, 06:06:06 PM
I had thought not, but apparently they are. In any event, PennDOT’s 2016 maps show a slight bump over the numbers in the PTC’s 2015 report: 65K, 51K, and 46K.

Where even is the PTC's traffic count report? I didn't even know there was a separate one. I guess the PTC just gives PennDOT that data for their maps so that the Turnpike roads aren't just blank. I wish the NJTA did that, since NJDOT's traffic counts don't include the NJTP and I haven't yet found its traffic counts.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 08, 2018, 06:23:21 PM
I was only able to find it by searching “pa turnpike aadt” , and I came up with a few deep links to PDFs on the PTC’s servers. 2015 is the most recent year for which I could find reports.

Here’s a report for through traffic: https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Mainline_AADT_Report.pdf (https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Mainline_AADT_Report.pdf)

And here’s one for exit traffic: https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Interchange_AADT_Report.pdf (https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Interchange_AADT_Report.pdf)

They provide some nice detail in that traffic counts are broken down by direction (EB vs. WB or entering vs. exiting), and the percentage of truck traffic is given for each reporting location. Not surprisingly, traffic volume is highest in metro Philadelphia and peaks between Mid-County and Fort Washington (120,088), which is also where the truck percentage bottoms out (11%). Truck volume peaks around 33% between Breezewood and Carlisle which is also where mainline volume tanks–hovering around 23K total.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 08, 2018, 07:57:15 PM
I had thought not, but apparently they are. In any event, PennDOT’s 2016 maps show a slight bump over the numbers in the PTC’s 2015 report: 65K, 51K, and 46K.

Definite 6-lane warrants now, and certainly in a 20-year design horizon.

I was only able to find it by searching “pa turnpike aadt” , and I came up with a few deep links to PDFs on the PTC’s servers. 2015 is the most recent year for which I could find reports.
Here’s a report for through traffic: https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Mainline_AADT_Report.pdf (https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Mainline_AADT_Report.pdf)
And here’s one for exit traffic: https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Interchange_AADT_Report.pdf (https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2015%20Reports/2015_Interchange_AADT_Report.pdf)
They provide some nice detail in that traffic counts are broken down by direction (EB vs. WB or entering vs. exiting), and the percentage of truck traffic is given for each reporting location. Not surprisingly, traffic volume is highest in metro Philadelphia and peaks between Mid-County and Fort Washington (120,088), which is also where the truck percentage bottoms out (11%). Truck volume peaks around 33% between Breezewood and Carlisle which is also where mainline volume tanks–hovering around 23K total.

I saw that in the 2014 report, very high volumes between Mid-County and Fort Washington.  Those are 8-lane warrants.  Is it seriously congesting during peak hours with the existing 6 lanes?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 08, 2018, 08:04:36 PM
Traffic volume drops by about a third north of the Lehigh Valley Interchange, so I doubt widening will extend beyond that point in the near future. Also, I previously noted that a couple of recent construction projects–the new Lehigh River bridges near Lehighton and the new Hickory Run Interchange–allow more shoulder room than previous NE Extension facilities, but neither is wide enough to accommodate six lanes. So apparently, the PTC doesn’t consider widening the road to Pocono or beyond in the cards within the serviceable life of those new facilities.

And even if they did, that would create an occasionally h u g e bottleneck at the Lehigh tubes, right?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 08, 2018, 09:04:30 PM
I saw that in the 2014 report, very high volumes between Mid-County and Fort Washington.  Those are 8-lane warrants.  Is it seriously congesting during peak hours with the existing 6 lanes?

In the afternoon rush, eastbound especially, traffic is usually very heavy coming out of the Valley Forge Interchange and frequently slowing to a standstill from the Norristown ramps through the merge from I-476 North to I-276 East. It remains slow through Fort Washington and generally starts to pick up speed east of there.

Since I live along I-476 and rarely have reason to drive straight through on I-276, I most often encounter this when attempting to head north on the NE Extension anytime during the PM rush. After getting around the backup that forms on the loop ramp from I-476 North to I-76 West at Conshohocken, traffic bound for I-276 East will back up through the Mid-County toll plaza, sometimes as far back as Conshohocken.

And even if they did, that would create an occasionally h u g e bottleneck at the Lehigh tubes, right?

Agreed, although that didn’t stop the PTC from six-laning the mainline right up to the eastern approach to Blue Mountain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CanesFan27 on February 08, 2018, 11:43:38 PM
Live in Bedford or Fulton County, PA? - the Old Pennsylvania Pike Authority is looking for board members.

It appears that the Old Pennsylvania Pike is the new name for the Pike2Bike Abandoned Pennsylvania Turnpike Project

http://www.altoonamirror.com/news/local-news/2018/01/applicants-sought-for-abandoned-turnpike-authority/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on February 09, 2018, 06:48:19 AM
I saw that in the 2014 report, very high volumes between Mid-County and Fort Washington.  Those are 8-lane warrants.  Is it seriously congesting during peak hours with the existing 6 lanes?

In the afternoon rush, eastbound especially, traffic is usually very heavy coming out of the Valley Forge Interchange and frequently slowing to a standstill from the Norristown ramps through the merge from I-476 North to I-276 East. It remains slow through Fort Washington and generally starts to pick up speed east of there.

Since I live along I-476 and rarely have reason to drive straight through on I-276, I most often encounter this when attempting to head north on the NE Extension anytime during the PM rush. After getting around the backup that forms on the loop ramp from I-476 North to I-76 West at Conshohocken, traffic bound for I-276 East will back up through the Mid-County toll plaza, sometimes as far back as Conshohocken.

All too true. When I lived in Northeast Philadelphia and worked at the PennDOT District 6 office, I commuted through that stretch. By far the most congestion was between Mid-County and Fort Washington. The portion between Mid-County and Valley Forge was almost as bad.

I was doing that back when E-ZPass was first implemented (2001, IIRC). Overnight, E-ZPass reduced my drive time by 15 minutes each way. IOW, I had an extra half hour to spend with my family every day. Before E-ZPass the traffic exiting at Valley Forge would back up onto the main line for at least a mile. I can't imagine what it would be like today.

Now that I live in Lebanon (PA), I sometimes travel into Philadelphia on business. I'm amazed how much traffic pours onto the Turnpike in the mornings at Downingtown and even at Morgantown, heading into Phila. The congestion is really bad out to Downingtown and the PTC still has yet to begin construction on the six-lane widening from Valley Forge to Great Valley (PA 29), let alone to Downingtown.

If I'm traveling into Philadelphia and I don't need my car during the day, to avoid the congestion on the Turnpike (not to mention on the Schuylkill Expressway) I'll get off at Great Valley and take SEPTA regional rail in from Malvern. If only the train ran out to Lebanon!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Chris19001 on February 09, 2018, 01:12:54 PM
I used to commute that stretch between Ft Washington and Lansdale fairly often.  I was hoping to someday see a widening expansion on I-276 between MidCounty and Ft Washington to alleviate the daily backups.  Even if the PATP would add a fourth lane that continued the 476N to 276E on ramp into the Ft Washington offramp, I think it would be a huge help.  The rebuilt bridge over 309 was built with an extra eastbound lane approach, but the bridge over SEPTA's Lansdale line was not reconstructed for an additional lane, so its an abrupt lane start.  The westbound 4th lane would also improve traffic flow in that there is so much traffic entering at Ft Washington and exiting at Mid-County.
Now I grant that there would be a lot of retaining wall reconstruction necessary for an additional lane, and the Joshua Road bridge would finally need to be rebuilt to widen the right of way.  I believe Joshua Road escaped the last reconstruction in the 1980's by shrinking the median.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 14, 2018, 05:46:40 AM
Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike made $3.7 million mistake in Southern Beltway construction (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2018/03/13/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-3-7-million-mistake-hazardous-pickle-liquor-sludge/stories/201803130166)

Quote
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission made a $3.7 million mistake in the way it handled potentially hazardous material as part of the construction of the Southern Beltway in Washington County.

Quote
The state Department of Environmental Protection ordered that an acid solution known as pickle liquor sludge found during excavation must be treated as hazardous material. Instead of removing and storing 66,000 tons of pickle liquor sludge found last spring and summer for reuse elsewhere at the site, as turnpike designers called for, workers will have to take it to a licensed landfill as a hazardous material. As a result, the commission board last week approved a $3.7 million change order in the contract for Independence Excavating of Cleveland to cover the cost of hauling and landfill fees, as well as covering the areas where it had been temporarily stored.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 14, 2018, 07:05:02 AM
Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike made $3.7 million mistake in Southern Beltway construction (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2018/03/13/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-3-7-million-mistake-hazardous-pickle-liquor-sludge/stories/201803130166)

It would help if they provided a better description of this material.  It has nothing to do with the common definitions of pickles and liquor.  Plus there is 66 thousand tons of the stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_(metal)

Pickling is a metal surface treatment used to remove impurities, such as stains, inorganic contaminants, rust or scale from ferrous metals, copper, precious metals and aluminum alloys.  A solution called pickle liquor, which usually contains acid, is used to remove the surface impurities.  It is commonly used to descale or clean steel in various steelmaking processes.

Pickling sludge is the waste product from pickling, and includes acidic rinse waters, iron chlorides, and metallic salts and waste acid.  Spent pickle liquor is considered a hazardous waste by the EPA.  Pickle sludge from steel processes is usually neutralized with lime and disposed of in a landfill since the EPA no longer deems it a hazardous waste after neutralization.  The lime neutralization process raises the pH of the spent acid.  The waste material is subject to a waste determination to ensure no characteristic or listed waste is present.  Since the 1960s, hydrochloric pickling sludge is often treated in a hydrochloric acid regeneration system, which recovers some of the hydrochloric acid and ferric oxide. The rest must still be neutralized and disposed of in land fills or managed as a hazardous waste based on the waste profile analysis.   The by-products of nitric acid pickling are marketable to other industries, such as fertilizer processors.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 14, 2018, 07:51:45 AM
Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike made $3.7 million mistake in Southern Beltway construction (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2018/03/13/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-3-7-million-mistake-hazardous-pickle-liquor-sludge/stories/201803130166)

It would help if they provided a better description of this material.  It has nothing to do with the common definitions of pickles and liquor.  Plus there is 66 thousand tons of the stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_(metal)

Pickling is a metal surface treatment used to remove impurities, such as stains, inorganic contaminants, rust or scale from ferrous metals, copper, precious metals and aluminum alloys.  A solution called pickle liquor, which usually contains acid, is used to remove the surface impurities.  It is commonly used to descale or clean steel in various steelmaking processes.

Pickling sludge is the waste product from pickling, and includes acidic rinse waters, iron chlorides, and metallic salts and waste acid.  Spent pickle liquor is considered a hazardous waste by the EPA.  Pickle sludge from steel processes is usually neutralized with lime and disposed of in a landfill since the EPA no longer deems it a hazardous waste after neutralization.  The lime neutralization process raises the pH of the spent acid.  The waste material is subject to a waste determination to ensure no characteristic or listed waste is present.  Since the 1960s, hydrochloric pickling sludge is often treated in a hydrochloric acid regeneration system, which recovers some of the hydrochloric acid and ferric oxide. The rest must still be neutralized and disposed of in land fills or managed as a hazardous waste based on the waste profile analysis.   The by-products of nitric acid pickling are marketable to other industries, such as fertilizer processors.

Or as I might have put it, "Vlasic and Jack Daniel's".

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 14, 2018, 09:59:17 AM
Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike made $3.7 million mistake in Southern Beltway construction (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2018/03/13/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-3-7-million-mistake-hazardous-pickle-liquor-sludge/stories/201803130166)

It would help if they provided a better description of this material.  It has nothing to do with the common definitions of pickles and liquor.  Plus there is 66 thousand tons of the stuff.

Perhaps because this part of Pennsylvania was once a major producer of steel, the writer and the editor assumed that readers would know what (spent) pickle liquor is?

I knew it was a byproduct of steel production from a project I worked on decades ago that had nothing to do with steel, but did have to do with transport of hazardous materials (a load of this has to be placarded with code 1760).  You can see the details here (http://usa.arcelormittal.com/~/media/Files/A/Arcelormittal-USA-V2/what-we-do/product-compliance/safety-data-sheets/201506_FerrousChlorideSolution-SpentPickleLiquorSDSUSA-6002.pdf) or here (http://www.hannasteel.com/HANNA%20Spent%20Pickle%20Liquor%20SDS%206.1.2015.pdf).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 14, 2018, 11:15:41 AM
Pittsburgh Post Gazette: Pennsylvania Turnpike made $3.7 million mistake in Southern Beltway construction (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2018/03/13/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-3-7-million-mistake-hazardous-pickle-liquor-sludge/stories/201803130166)
It would help if they provided a better description of this material.  It has nothing to do with the common definitions of pickles and liquor.  Plus there is 66 thousand tons of the stuff.
Perhaps because this part of Pennsylvania was once a major producer of steel, the writer and the editor assumed that readers would know what (spent) pickle liquor is?
I knew it was a byproduct of steel production from a project I worked on decades ago that had nothing to do with steel, but did have to do with transport of hazardous materials (a load of this has to be placarded with code 1760).  You can see the details here (http://usa.arcelormittal.com/~/media/Files/A/Arcelormittal-USA-V2/what-we-do/product-compliance/safety-data-sheets/201506_FerrousChlorideSolution-SpentPickleLiquorSDSUSA-6002.pdf) or here (http://www.hannasteel.com/HANNA%20Spent%20Pickle%20Liquor%20SDS%206.1.2015.pdf).

As much as I have read about highway EIS related issues, I had never heard about this before.  Maybe because it has been decades since it was used and dumped anywhere?  Lots of their readers would be too young to remember when it was produced. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 14, 2018, 01:41:13 PM
As much as I have read about highway EIS related issues, I had never heard about this before.  Maybe because it has been decades since it was used and dumped anywhere?  Lots of their readers would be too young to remember when it was produced. 

I do recall that the rerouting of U.S. 15 and U.S. 11 near Shamokin Dam was impacted by massive deposits of coal ash (nasty stuff) from a coal-fired generating station there.  PennDOT ended up changing the route because of the cost associated with remediating the coal ash dump.

I believe pickle liquor is still used by steel mills today, which means that there is almost certainly waste sludge generated too.  Of course, the U.S. generally and Southwest Pennsylvania have many less of those today than  they once did. 

The big one in Maryland at Sparrows Point (next to MD-695 (signed I-695) on the east side of the FSK Bridge) has been shut and most of it torn down, and the site will be used for other purposes.

The better question might be this - why was there never a circumferential freeway built around Pittsburgh in the first place?  I realize that there is the (rough) outline of such a road by combining the awful part of I-70 between Washington and New Stanton, I-76 (Penna. Turnpike), and I-79 (or part of I-376), but none of those appear to have been routed to be a circumferential, and just combining I-70, I-76 and I-79 into a "beltway" is almost 130 miles (example here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40.1844936,-80.2285737/40.2199741,-79.6001912/40.6748038,-80.0960914/40.1847784,-80.2291832/@40.3273544,-80.5494935,9z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0)).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 14, 2018, 02:07:23 PM
The better question might be this - why was there never a circumferential freeway built around Pittsburgh in the first place?

Without giving the matter a great deal of detailed contemplation, my initial reaction is that the answer seems fairly obvious: Pittsburgh is already bypassed by all of the major through routes that come anywhere near it (I-70, I-76, I-79). So a beltway would serve little purpose other than to facilitate suburb-to-suburb commuting–and accelerate patterns of migration and development which are dependent on that kind of suburban access.

We may have differing opinions on whether that is an undesirable outcome, but I think it’s safe to say that this type of development has been an unintended consequence in other cities where beltways were constructed in the ’50s and ’60s on the pretense of providing through traffic a bypass to avoid congested downtown districts.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on March 14, 2018, 03:05:21 PM
The better question might be this - why was there never a circumferential freeway built around Pittsburgh in the first place?

Without giving the matter a great deal of detailed contemplation, my initial reaction is that the answer seems fairly obvious: Pittsburgh is already bypassed by all of the major through routes that come anywhere near it (I-70, I-76, I-79).

I'm sure the biggest, and most obvious answer to the question is:  Money (or lack of)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2018, 03:08:15 PM
The better question might be this - why was there never a circumferential freeway built around Pittsburgh in the first place?

Without giving the matter a great deal of detailed contemplation, my initial reaction is that the answer seems fairly obvious: Pittsburgh is already bypassed by all of the major through routes that come anywhere near it (I-70, I-76, I-79).

I'm sure the biggest, and most obvious answer to the question is:  Money (or lack of)


I would think the more significant answer is: Was one ever planned in the first place?  If there was, then you can move into the Why of why wasn't it built.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 14, 2018, 03:35:26 PM
Yes–according to most planning maps I’ve seen, at least a couple of beltway-type routes were planned at various points, including the ones shown on the 1963 map below that Jeff Kitsko has on his website.

So my guess is that, since suburb-to-suburb beltways weren’t among the region’s most pressing transportation needs in the 1950s and ’60s, those projects were deferred as PennDOT prioritized the routes to and through downtown Pittsburgh. Then by the time those routes were completed in the 1970s, there was no additional funding available, so the beltway routes (and others) were scrapped indefinitely.

(http://www.pahighways.com/graphics/maps/pgh1963.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 14, 2018, 04:13:11 PM
Yes–according to most planning maps I’ve seen, at least a couple of beltway-type routes were planned at various points, including the ones shown on the 1963 map below that Jeff Kitsko has on his website.

That is a pretty impressive network.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 14, 2018, 04:35:03 PM
The better question might be this - why was there never a circumferential freeway built around Pittsburgh in the first place?
Without giving the matter a great deal of detailed contemplation, my initial reaction is that the answer seems fairly obvious: Pittsburgh is already bypassed by all of the major through routes that come anywhere near it (I-70, I-76, I-79). So a beltway would serve little purpose other than to facilitate suburb-to-suburb commuting–and accelerate patterns of migration and development which are dependent on that kind of suburban access.

Then why were circumferential freeways like I-295 and I-476 and US-322 Barry Bridge built when the PA and NJ turnpikes and Delaware Memorial Bridge already bypassed Philadelphia?

Simple - they were needed for additional capacity and various local accesses and interregional bypasses.

Pittsburgh didn't build a beltway for one reason, they were backward.

I-79 is the only segment that functions anywhere like a beltway-type freeway, and only in the sense of distance from the city and its interchange spacing.  I-70 is way too far away.  The Turnpike passes close enough to the city on the northeast quadrant but its widely spaced interchanges (10 mile average between I-70 and I-79) do not provide beltway-like access.

As such the Southern Beltway and final leg of the MFE will provide a much needed beltway freeway facility, at least on the southern quadrants.  The planning has advanced to where they have a completed EIS/NEPA process.  Move ahead!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 14, 2018, 07:17:55 PM
As most know, the Southern Beltway is under construction down to I79, also I understand that ROW work for PA 43 up to the Kennywood area will start soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 14, 2018, 08:22:23 PM
Yes–according to most planning maps I’ve seen, at least a couple of beltway-type routes were planned at various points, including the ones shown on the 1963 map below that Jeff Kitsko has on his website.

So my guess is that, since suburb-to-suburb beltways weren’t among the region’s most pressing transportation needs in the 1950s and ’60s, those projects were deferred as PennDOT prioritized the routes to and through downtown Pittsburgh. Then by the time those routes were completed in the 1970s, there was no additional funding available, so the beltway routes (and others) were scrapped indefinitely.

(http://www.pahighways.com/graphics/maps/pgh1963.jpg)

Here's the link...

http://www.pahighways.com/graphics/maps/pgh1963.jpg?lbisphpreq=1

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 14, 2018, 09:50:39 PM
As most know, the Southern Beltway is under construction down to I79, also I understand that ROW work for PA 43 up to the Kennywood area will start soon.

Parts are under construction ...

Due to the complexity of building a new 13 mile roadway, the Route 22 to I-79 project has been divided into 9 construction sections. The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) has completed two sections of the project, three sections are in construction, and right-of-way acquisition and final design are in progress for the other four sections.

The Record of Decision (granting environmental clearance) was issued for the project in September 2008. The funding for the U.S. Route 22 to I-79 project is now in place thanks to a boost in funding from Act 89. Estimated cost for this 13 mile section is approximately $700m.

https://www.patpconstruction.com/southern_beltway/22to79/default.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: VTGoose on March 15, 2018, 09:21:41 AM

I do recall that the rerouting of U.S. 15 and U.S. 11 near Shamokin Dam was impacted by massive deposits of coal ash (nasty stuff) from a coal-fired generating station there.  PennDOT ended up changing the route because of the cost associated with remediating the coal ash dump.

Wasn't a section of I-99 delayed for several years while the contractor dealt with some nasty (but natural) acidic soil?

Quote
The better question might be this - why was there never a circumferential freeway built around Pittsburgh in the first place?  I realize that there is the (rough) outline of such a road by combining the awful part of I-70 between Washington and New Stanton, I-76 (Penna. Turnpike), and I-79 (or part of I-376), but none of those appear to have been routed to be a circumferential, and just combining I-70, I-76 and I-79 into a "beltway" is almost 130 miles (example here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40.1844936,-80.2285737/40.2199741,-79.6001912/40.6748038,-80.0960914/40.1847784,-80.2291832/@40.3273544,-80.5494935,9z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0)).

Terrain would be one of the biggest obstacles to building an actual beltway around the city. There is just no easy way to make a loop without spending a lot of money to make it happen.

Pittsburgh and Allegheny County had a beltway system in the '40s/50s/'60s and beyond but it was laid out on surface streets. The Belt System uses color route identifiers to guide people from place to place in Allegheny County while avoiding going through downtown.
(see for one of the many sites found by searching "Pittsburgh belt roads": http://popularpittsburgh.com/pittsburghs-belt-system-perfect-accessory/)

Another factor is the need or lack thereof for a bypass of the city. The Turnpike, I-79, and to the south I-70 provide "adequate" routes for through travelers to get from point A to point B without the need to actually go through Pittsburgh. It may have changed with the end of the steel industry, but for a long time Pittsburgh was pretty provincial with the city pretty much the center of things. If you lived in the suburbs you really didn't venture much beyond your corner of the county. From Moon Township, Monroeville and the South Hills were known places but there really wasn't much need to go there. Granted, we had the airport that attracted people but they used the Parkway West to reach that destination and really didn't go much into the community. If there was a need to travel somewhere else, like Kennywood, surface streets were sufficient for that trip.

Bruce in Blacksburg (but a native of the 'Burgh)
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on March 18, 2018, 08:36:19 AM
I believe the section you are talking about of I-99 is at Skytop, between Port Matilda and State College.

Nexus 6P

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 18, 2018, 09:27:55 PM
Went through the MP 201-206 construction zone this weekend.  Noticed they placed signs on two overpasses for EB traffic...one with the green circle around a truck over the left lane and one with the red "No" symbol through a truck in the right lane (similar to the signs they have shown on VMS).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 19, 2018, 01:12:28 PM
Drove the Northeast Extension (I-476) this past weekend from U.S. 22 to Mid-County.  The next phase of the widening project is starting up, with about 8 or 9 miles of new cattle chute in place starting north of Exit 20 (Lansdale).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 19, 2018, 01:44:41 PM
The next phase of the widening project is starting up, with about 8 or 9 miles of new cattle chute in place starting north of Exit 20 31 (Lansdale).
FTFY
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 20, 2018, 10:00:46 AM
The next phase of the widening project is starting up, with about 8 or 9 miles of new cattle chute in place starting north of Exit 20 31 (Lansdale).
FTFY

Thanks.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 20, 2018, 10:05:40 AM
CDLLife.com: Truckers sue Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission for $6 billion in ”˜unconstitutional’ tolls - "Truckers and motorists are not ATMs to fund everything under the sun." (https://cdllife.com/2018/truckers-sue-pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-for-6-billion-in-unconstitutional-tolls/)

Quote
Two major trucking groups have filed a multi-billion dollar class action lawsuit against Pennsylvania for imposing “excessive tolls”  on drivers.

Quote
The Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association (OOIDA) and the National Motorists Association filed suit against the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission in a federal court in Harrisburg last week, according to PennLive (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/03/truckers_lawsuit_pa_turnpike_t.html).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 20, 2018, 10:23:20 AM
CDLLife.com: Truckers sue Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission for $6 billion in ‘unconstitutional’ tolls - "Truckers and motorists are not ATMs to fund everything under the sun." (https://cdllife.com/2018/truckers-sue-pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-for-6-billion-in-unconstitutional-tolls/)

Two major trucking groups have filed a multi-billion dollar class action lawsuit against Pennsylvania for imposing “excessive tolls” on drivers.

The Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association (OOIDA) and the National Motorists Association filed suit against the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission in a federal court in Harrisburg last week, according to PennLive (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/03/truckers_lawsuit_pa_turnpike_t.html).

I don't know if they have much of a fight.  There's numerous roads around where tolls don't go exclusively to the toll road.  I believe the PA Turnpike doesn't even have an out-of-state penalty like other systems have.  And at 13.2 cents per mile (for cars), it's not even the most expensive toll road by far by the mile.  What the PA Turnpike suffers from is simply it's a very long roadway. 

Also, when truckers start to complain they are paying more money but aren't the majority of traffic, they again shift the blame away from the damage they cause.   Trucking agencies for years have tried to complain, sue and do anything they can to sway the public mind...and public officials...and courts...that they are paying more than need be.  It generally hasn't worked.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 20, 2018, 10:45:33 AM
I don't know if they have much of a fight.  There's numerous roads around where tolls don't go exclusively to the toll road.  I believe the PA Turnpike doesn't even have an out-of-state penalty like other systems have.  And at 13.2 cents per mile (for cars), it's not even the most expensive toll road by far by the mile.  What the PA Turnpike suffers from is simply it's a very long roadway. 

Also, when truckers start to complain they are paying more money but aren't the majority of traffic, they again shift the blame away from the damage they cause.   Trucking agencies for years have tried to complain, sue and do anything they can to sway the public mind...and public officials...and courts...that they are paying more than need be.  It generally hasn't worked.

I am not at all convinced that they will get the federal court in Harrisburg to go along with what they are asking, but they correctly point out that many of the things that are being funded with the increased tolls have absolutely nothing to do with the PTC's network of toll roads.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 20, 2018, 10:50:38 AM
Text of the  lawsuit against PTC can be found online here (https://www.scribd.com/document/374105814/Lawsuit-against-Pennsylvania-Turnpike-filed-by-trucking-associations#from_embed).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 20, 2018, 02:05:20 PM
CDLLife.com: Truckers sue Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission for $6 billion in ‘unconstitutional’ tolls - "Truckers and motorists are not ATMs to fund everything under the sun." (https://cdllife.com/2018/truckers-sue-pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-for-6-billion-in-unconstitutional-tolls/)

Two major trucking groups have filed a multi-billion dollar class action lawsuit against Pennsylvania for imposing “excessive tolls” on drivers.

The Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association (OOIDA) and the National Motorists Association filed suit against the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission in a federal court in Harrisburg last week, according to PennLive (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/03/truckers_lawsuit_pa_turnpike_t.html).

I don't know if they have much of a fight.  There's numerous roads around where tolls don't go exclusively to the toll road.  I believe the PA Turnpike doesn't even have an out-of-state penalty like other systems have.  And at 13.2 cents per mile (for cars), it's not even the most expensive toll road by far by the mile.  What the PA Turnpike suffers from is simply it's a very long roadway. 

Also, when truckers start to complain they are paying more money but aren't the majority of traffic, they again shift the blame away from the damage they cause.   Trucking agencies for years have tried to complain, sue and do anything they can to sway the public mind...and public officials...and courts...that they are paying more than need be.  It generally hasn't worked.
PA Turnpike is certainly the most expensive long-distance toll road in the area.  Comparing to bridges/tunnels or to HOT/express lanes is apples-oranges.  The Delaware Turnpike is certainly an outlier, though.  Even using the full length rather than just the tolled section yields a very high per-mile rate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 20, 2018, 03:04:49 PM
PA Turnpike is certainly the most expensive long-distance toll road in the area.  Comparing to bridges/tunnels or to HOT/express lanes is apples-oranges.  The Delaware Turnpike is certainly an outlier, though.  Even using the full length rather than just the tolled section yields a very high per-mile rate.

Agree with you regarding the length of the two "long" sections of the  Penn Pike, the East-West Mainline and the Northeast Extension. 

The annoying thing about the Penn Pike is that the tolls will be going up forever on an annual basis (I suppose at some point they get close to infinity).

Regarding the Delaware Turnpike, I am happy  to report that I shunpiked its excessive tolls just the other day (southbound my preferred route is DE-896 south to a right on Old Baltimore Pike west to the Maryland border, then continue a short distance on MD-281 to a new roundabout, right on Muddy Lane north, which takes a twisting path back to MD-279 just south of the I-95 interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 20, 2018, 03:14:53 PM
Wasn't there a lawsuit recently by truckers against the NYS Thruway over toll rates regarding its financial support of the Barge Canal?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 20, 2018, 04:02:21 PM
And if the Truckers win what is there to stop the PTC from going "no trucks"?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 20, 2018, 04:32:45 PM
And if the Truckers win what is there to stop the PTC from going "no trucks"?
Obstruction of (Interstate) Commerce.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 20, 2018, 07:35:17 PM
Wasn't there a lawsuit recently by truckers against the NYS Thruway over toll rates regarding its financial support of the Barge Canal?
Also all the other canals.  I presume that one disappeared when the Canal Corporation was transferred to the Power Authority, rendering the lawsuit moot.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 24, 2018, 08:01:00 PM
The northern portion of I-476 (outside of the ticket system in Lackawanna County at Keyser Ave and Clarks Summitt toll plazas) and the Findlay Connector portion of PA 576 is going AET on April 29th. (http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/03/pa_turnpikes_move_toward_cashl.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 28, 2018, 11:28:26 AM
And if the Truckers win what is there to stop the PTC from going "no trucks"?

Never happen. 

PTC would rapidly become insolvent without the toll revenue paid by trucks, especially on the E-W Mainline and Northeast Extension (note that it may become insolvent anyway, because of the Act 44 payments).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 12, 2018, 05:03:29 PM
Wow. Just wow.
https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036 (https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on April 12, 2018, 06:58:12 PM
Wow. Just wow.
https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036 (https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036)

And that was just from one trip end to end  :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on April 12, 2018, 08:51:38 PM
Wow. Just wow.
https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036 (https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036)

And that was just from one trip end to end  :-D

If she just would've left her trailer unhitched at home, she would've only owed $147.25.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2018, 11:13:59 PM
Wow. Just wow.
https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036 (https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending-now/woman-faces-charges-after-racking-up-almost-92000-in-unpaid-turnpike-tolls-fees/731190036)

The EZ Pass was on her windshield; she left it in the protective metal foil bag to protect it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on April 13, 2018, 01:07:50 AM
In case nobody's mentioned it, the Keyser Avenue and Clarks Summit toll plazas on the NE Extension (I-476) are going all-electronic on the 29th. That, and toll rates there are going up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on April 13, 2018, 01:11:26 AM
So once that's done, all that's left will be PA 66, the Mon-Fayette Expressway, the Southern Beltway (coming soon,) and Gateway. Then it's onto the ticket system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 13, 2018, 02:57:13 PM
So once that's done, all that's left will be PA 66, the Mon-Fayette Expressway, the Southern Beltway (coming soon,) and Gateway. Then it's onto the ticket system.

The Southern Beltway is going AET on April 29 as well. Here, they are going to remove the ramp toll plazas. An overhead gantry has been installed along the mainline south of US 30.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on April 13, 2018, 06:07:31 PM
So once that's done, all that's left will be PA 66, the Mon-Fayette Expressway, the Southern Beltway (coming soon,) and Gateway. Then it's onto the ticket system.

The Southern Beltway is going AET on April 29 as well. Here, they are going to remove the ramp toll plazas. An overhead gantry has been installed along the mainline south of US 30.

If/When the mainline does go to AET, what will the PTC do for the odd "mostly-free" section that runs between I-79 and the Ohio Turnpike?  Unless you are entering the Penna Pike eastbound from the Ohio Turnpike, you can currently go anywhere on the westernmost section no charge. 

I would assume the free-rides would go bye-bye when AET happens?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on April 14, 2018, 10:26:31 PM
Speaking of E-ZPass, I noticed Waze no longer took me on E-ZPass Only slip ramps on the PA Turnpike.  The reason is you now have to specify which toll passes you have, which then directs you to such ramps.  I guess there were complaints about being directed to these exits without E-ZPass.

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/TRA_waze_app_ezpass_customers.aspx?utm_source=mailchimp&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=apr_email&utm_content=waze
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 15, 2018, 11:28:25 AM
So once that's done, all that's left will be PA 66, the Mon-Fayette Expressway, the Southern Beltway (coming soon,) and Gateway. Then it's onto the ticket system.

The Southern Beltway is going AET on April 29 as well. Here, they are going to remove the ramp toll plazas. An overhead gantry has been installed along the mainline south of US 30.

If/When the mainline does go to AET, what will the PTC do for the odd "mostly-free" section that runs between I-79 and the Ohio Turnpike?  Unless you are entering the Penna Pike eastbound from the Ohio Turnpike, you can currently go anywhere on the westernmost section no charge. 

I would assume the free-rides would go bye-bye when AET happens?

The Southern Beltway conversion actually creates two free zones.

On the mainline, I would hope they at least start tolling in both directions at the state line. Eastbound now for cash is over $7. That's getting pretty steep. My own preference would be an overhead gantry between each interchange and charge tolls. I think that's really the fairest way to do it. If I only use the Turnpike between the state line and I-376, it's not fair that I'm assessed the same toll as if I drove nearly three times as long to Cranberry.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on April 16, 2018, 02:33:08 PM
If/When the mainline does go to AET, what will the PTC do for the odd "mostly-free" section that runs between I-79 and the Ohio Turnpike?  Unless you are entering the Penna Pike eastbound from the Ohio Turnpike, you can currently go anywhere on the westernmost section no charge. 

I would assume the free-rides would go bye-bye when AET happens?

I've wondered this myself.  Since the most recent plans they've had (that I've read about) seem to be favoring involve gantries between exits, I'd like to think they would for fairness sake.

Though, to break it down further.... and I'm just guessing here... that even if they do, they'll just put ones between Ohio & I-376, and between Beaver Valley and Cranberry, and not bother with the ~3 miles between Beaver Valley & 376.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jcn on April 25, 2018, 02:58:20 AM
I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed how just like many of the interchanges on I 95 in Maryland, the Reading interchange had its high mast lights replaced by low level lighting within this past decade?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on April 25, 2018, 09:17:53 PM
So once that's done, all that's left will be PA 66, the Mon-Fayette Expressway, the Southern Beltway (coming soon,) and Gateway. Then it's onto the ticket system.

The Southern Beltway is going AET on April 29 as well. Here, they are going to remove the ramp toll plazas. An overhead gantry has been installed along the mainline south of US 30.
Southern Beltway conversion has been delayed for additional testing
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2018/20180424155613.htm (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2018/20180424155613.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on April 25, 2018, 09:25:50 PM
I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed how just like many of the interchanges on I 95 in Maryland, the Reading interchange had its high mast lights replaced by low level lighting within this past decade?
FTE is doing that here in Florida too.  Do not know why as high mast light up a much larger area and use less candle power.  I guess with the new LED lights it does not matter, however even when the orange sodium lights were king, some agencies in the Sunshine State also chose the lower traditional lights over the tall ones as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: signalman on April 26, 2018, 12:18:24 AM
I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed how just like many of the interchanges on I 95 in Maryland, the Reading interchange had its high mast lights replaced by low level lighting within this past decade?
FTE is doing that here in Florida too.  Do not know why as high mast light up a much larger area and use less candle power.  I guess with the new LED lights it does not matter, however even when the orange sodium lights were king, some agencies in the Sunshine State also chose the lower traditional lights over the tall ones as well.
I would assume the lowering of the lights' height is to keep the light on the roadway it was intended to illuminate.  High mast lights probably cast a decent amount of light on adjacent neighborhoods, much to residents' chagrin.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on April 26, 2018, 12:22:59 AM
I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed how just like many of the interchanges on I 95 in Maryland, the Reading interchange had its high mast lights replaced by low level lighting within this past decade?
FTE is doing that here in Florida too.  Do not know why as high mast light up a much larger area and use less candle power.  I guess with the new LED lights it does not matter, however even when the orange sodium lights were king, some agencies in the Sunshine State also chose the lower traditional lights over the tall ones as well.
I would assume the lowering of the lights' height is to keep the light on the roadway it was intended to illuminate.  High mast lights probably cast a decent amount of light on adjacent neighborhoods, much to residents' chagrin.

Has anyone seen an official statement from a DOT as to why they are replacing high mast lighting with standard luminaires?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 01, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
Philly.com: After the scandal: Pa. Turnpike settles with whistleblower it fired, contractor he warned about (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_top/software-fraud-bribery-contracting-whistleblower-fired-pa-turnpike-ciber-20180427.html)

Quote
Ten years after the failure of an SAP enterprise software installation at the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission that exposed a pay-to-play bribery scandal, Ciber Inc. has agreed to pay the commission just $2 million of the $45 million that the agency demanded in a 2012 lawsuit.

Quote
The complaint accused Ciber of overcharging the commission by tens of millions of dollars above the actual cost of the installation. Ciber also failed to get the system working to run the turnpike’s finance, accounting, service, maintenance, purchasing, and other systems. The failure forced the turnpike to hire SAP employees and use its own staff to do work it had already paid Ciber for, the turnpike commission said in its complaint.

Quote
That is just part of the fallout from the turnpike’s notorious software case. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court in March ordered the agency to pay $4.2 million in damages, costs, and interest to whistleblower Ralph Bailets, the turnpike’s former manager of financial systems and reporting, for unfairly firing him.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 01, 2018, 11:31:50 AM
I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed how just like many of the interchanges on I 95 in Maryland, the Reading interchange had its high mast lights replaced by low level lighting within this past decade?
FTE is doing that here in Florida too.  Do not know why as high mast light up a much larger area and use less candle power.  I guess with the new LED lights it does not matter, however even when the orange sodium lights were king, some agencies in the Sunshine State also chose the lower traditional lights over the tall ones as well.
I would assume the lowering of the lights' height is to keep the light on the roadway it was intended to illuminate.  High mast lights probably cast a decent amount of light on adjacent neighborhoods, much to residents' chagrin.

Has anyone seen an official statement from a DOT as to why they are replacing high mast lighting with standard luminaires?

I thought I read a few years ago that many the masts were reaching the end of their useful lives, and there was a risk of them falling, AND it was cheaper to replace with standard lights vs new high-mast lights. There were several in the Philadelphia area where the lights were lowered for quite a while before removed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 01, 2018, 12:44:16 PM
I thought I read a few years ago that many the masts were reaching the end of their useful lives, and there was a risk of them falling, AND it was cheaper to replace with standard lights vs new high-mast lights. There were several in the Philadelphia area where the lights were lowered for quite a while before removed.

At some I-95 interchanges in Maryland (especially the "between the Beltways" section), high-mast lighting is being replaced with lighting on conventional poles (using LED luminaires). 

But not at MD-200, which is mostly illuminated by HPS on high-mast poles.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on May 02, 2018, 12:08:33 PM
I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed how just like many of the interchanges on I 95 in Maryland, the Reading interchange had its high mast lights replaced by low level lighting within this past decade?
FTE is doing that here in Florida too.  Do not know why as high mast light up a much larger area and use less candle power.  I guess with the new LED lights it does not matter, however even when the orange sodium lights were king, some agencies in the Sunshine State also chose the lower traditional lights over the tall ones as well.

PennDOT has always seemed to prefer low level lighting. Perhaps PTC is copying them? There are a lot of interchanges with continuous low level lighting throughout the whole interchange when most other agencies would have gone with high mast.

WVDOH is going whole hog on installing high mast lighting as of late. New interchange installations are generally high mast and I-70 recently received several miles of continuous high mast lighting east of Wheeling. The lighting system along I-64 in Charleston is presently being converted from low level fixtures to high mast.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on May 04, 2018, 01:39:30 AM
Question: Once the ticketed parts of the turnpike go AET, will the EZ-Pass-only exits stay that way, or will they be accessible to anyone?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on May 04, 2018, 10:32:56 PM
Question: Once the ticketed parts of the turnpike go AET, will the EZ-Pass-only exits stay that way, or will they be accessible to anyone?

I imagine that they'll have to have their equipment upgraded first. Not the EZ-Pass parts, obviously, but probably the cameras and stuff for toll-by-plate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 05, 2018, 06:34:04 PM
Wouldn't the cameras essentially be doing what they do now for violations?  I would think it would be a simple software change.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 05, 2018, 09:50:37 PM
There was a discussion in the Mid-Atlantic Delaware thread that mentioned the PTC continuing to set 55 MPH speed limits in work zones despite differing degrees of exposure to workers (this was based on the billboards talking about the speed limits protecting workers).  I was surprised that I found two exceptions to this involving widening projects.  Normally, the speed limit in work zones has been 55, even when widening has been on the outside of the road (behind barriers) and the lanes remain their normal width.  However, a bridge project east of Carlisle (which clearly involved road widening too) and the MP 31-36 work on the NE Extension both had no speed limit reduction when I went through them in the past month.  In the case of the latter, the speed displays going northbound still had a speed limit of 70.  Perhaps their policy is changing?

EDIT: Perhaps I spoke too soon.  Went up the NE Extension again this weekend and the work zone speed limit was signed at 55 MPH.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on May 29, 2018, 07:56:34 AM
Speaking of speed limits, is the section east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel still that bad that it's still only 55 mph, even with the realignments and improvements? It seems like it could be at least 60, though I know the PTC likes to keep their 55-70 thing going. I wonder what the actual traffic speeds through here are?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 29, 2018, 09:11:17 AM
Speaking of speed limits, is the section east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel still that bad that it's still only 55 mph, even with the realignments and improvements? It seems like it could be at least 60, though I know the PTC likes to keep their 55-70 thing going. I wonder what the actual traffic speeds through here are?

I don't recall it being 55 MPH the last time  I was through there (Fall 2017), though GSV captured a 55 MPH speed limit sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9575976,-78.8243992,3a,75y,187.25h,78.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snfOfvjjzKwdMvJ6wH-U6jA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) in October 2016 on the eastbound side (downhill) partway between the eastern portal of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel and the church at New Baltimore.

After that sign, there are two more 55 signs (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9557683,-78.822449,3a,75y,158.73h,82.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbQsj4L_MxgSJP7w7JsW30g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), which are about a work zone ahead, apparently for a turnpike widening project (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.971804,-78.8034526,3a,29.1y,61.48h,84.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMNbFA-XVsQOO3p5BCpNZtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

EDIT: The widening was apparently for the westbound side only, but there was construction eastbound for the big slide remediation (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9849379,-78.7867023,3a,75y,96.73h,83.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sl1gnl0m2dV21wWSt9K4pMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) project (details here (https://www.indexc.com/news/story/pennsylvania-turnpike-remediation-new-baltimore)) - perhaps there was widening on the eastbound side after GSV drove through here.

At milepost 129.4 eastbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9804814,-78.7678971,3a,75y,150.94h,89.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siMyskTpBZDPxbfbapFN_1A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) the speed limit went back to 70 MPH.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on May 29, 2018, 01:01:30 PM
Speaking of speed limits, is the section east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel still that bad that it's still only 55 mph, even with the realignments and improvements? It seems like it could be at least 60, though I know the PTC likes to keep their 55-70 thing going. I wonder what the actual traffic speeds through here are?

I don't recall it being 55 MPH the last time  I was through there (Fall 2017), though GSV captured a 55 MPH speed limit sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9575976,-78.8243992,3a,75y,187.25h,78.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snfOfvjjzKwdMvJ6wH-U6jA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) in October 2016 on the eastbound side (downhill) partway between the eastern portal of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel and the church at New Baltimore.

After that sign, there are two more 55 signs (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9557683,-78.822449,3a,75y,158.73h,82.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbQsj4L_MxgSJP7w7JsW30g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), which are about a work zone ahead, apparently for a turnpike widening project (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.971804,-78.8034526,3a,29.1y,61.48h,84.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMNbFA-XVsQOO3p5BCpNZtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

In another thread, (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22901.msg2330800#msg2330800) I mentioned that there's some new random photo spheres taken by "B&V Cams" from April 2018. This location does show a 55 mph limit here on their pic. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9576659,-78.8244518,3a,75y,164.18h,92.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAF1QipOalyXPupFrU-00pBqXj51CkETW0iyc30H2mO5O!2e10!7i7680!8i3840)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 29, 2018, 09:41:44 PM
Speaking of speed limits, is the section east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel still that bad that it's still only 55 mph, even with the realignments and improvements? It seems like it could be at least 60, though I know the PTC likes to keep their 55-70 thing going. I wonder what the actual traffic speeds through here are?
It was when I went through there on Friday, though not well signed.  It leaves one to wonder if the signage for the speed limit returning to 70 is simply missing only to throw in a 55 sign miles later.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 30, 2018, 09:32:18 AM
For those that use the Findlay Connector (PA 576); AET/Toll-By-Plate takes effect on June 3 (this Sunday).

Findlay Connector Cashless Tolling to Go Live on June 3 (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2018/20180529141327.htm)

Quote from: PaTurnpike.com
HARRISBURG, PA (May 29, 2018) – The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) today announced that Cashless Tolling will go live June 3 on the Findlay Connector section of the Southern Beltway (PA Turnpike 576) in Washington and Allegheny counties. “Cashless”  means there will be no coin baskets along the roadway; cash will no longer be accepted.

Customers who use the Findlay Connector will no longer pay at the six on/off ramp toll plazas, which will be removed. Beginning June 3, they will pay electronically at a new location on the Findlay Connector mainline – an “open-road”  toll zone at milepost 2.6 where equipment is suspended from an overhead gantry. Findlay Connector trips which are now tolled between Exits 1-2 and Exits 4-6 will become free after conversion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 03, 2018, 05:37:39 PM
Looks like the Turnpike might be taking preliminary steps for AET on the main road.  In the past, the E-ZPass Express lanes and slip ramps have just had tag readers and not cameras taking photos of license plates (that was just at the exits).  However, passing through the northbound E-ZPass Express lanes at Mid-County, I noticed that there are now license plate cameras that flash just like in the exit lanes.  I guess theoretically someone could enter & exit without an E-ZPass and they could then be charged the correct toll plus the penalty (rather than the max toll).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 04, 2018, 05:19:42 PM
Looks like the Turnpike might be taking preliminary steps for AET on the main road.  In the past, the E-ZPass Express lanes and slip ramps have just had tag readers and not cameras taking photos of license plates (that was just at the exits).  However, passing through the northbound E-ZPass Express lanes at Mid-County, I noticed that there are now license plate cameras that flash just like in the exit lanes.  I guess theoretically someone could enter & exit without an E-ZPass and they could then be charged the correct toll plus the penalty (rather than the max toll).

The express lanes at the Gateway toll plaza at the Ohio state line have had cameras since the get-go over a decade ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 04, 2018, 10:33:05 PM
Looks like the Turnpike might be taking preliminary steps for AET on the main road.  In the past, the E-ZPass Express lanes and slip ramps have just had tag readers and not cameras taking photos of license plates (that was just at the exits).  However, passing through the northbound E-ZPass Express lanes at Mid-County, I noticed that there are now license plate cameras that flash just like in the exit lanes.  I guess theoretically someone could enter & exit without an E-ZPass and they could then be charged the correct toll plus the penalty (rather than the max toll).

The express lanes at the Gateway toll plaza at the Ohio state line have had cameras since the get-go over a decade ago.

The difference there is that is a fixed toll point, where a toll is due. Mid-County is an entrance into the ticket system, so normally the cameras have only been located in exit lanes where a toll is paid. This was entering, where a ticket is normally pulled.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 05, 2018, 09:15:35 AM
PA Turnpike Commission Approves Toll Increase for 2019.  Six percent increase for all vehicles will start Jan. 6 next year. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2018/20180703144436.htm)

Bold emphasis added in the below-quote:
Quote from: PA Turnpike Website
The toll increase will apply to all PA Turnpike sections and extensions, including the westbound Delaware River Bridge cashless tolling point (#359) in Bucks County, where tolls have not changed since January 2016.

Because of today’s action, the most-common toll for a passenger vehicle will increase next year from $1.30 to $1.38 for E-ZPass customers and from $2.10 to $2.25 for cash customers. The cashless toll at the westbound Delaware River Bridge will increase from $5.00 to $5.30 for E-ZPass customers and from $6.75 to $7.20 for those who use PA Turnpike TOLL-BY-PLATE. The most common toll for a Class-5 tractor-trailer truck will increase from $3.45 to $3.66 for E-ZPass and from $15.35 to $16.30 for cash. (Note, truckers in this class who use E-ZPass tend to take shorter trips than those who pay with cash or PA Turnpike TOLL-BY-PLATE).

With the above-increase, that PA-bound Delaware River Bridge will be the most expensive Delaware River crossing for all users.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on July 05, 2018, 10:28:37 AM
Regarding the toll on the connector bridge, for those accessing it from US Route 130 there is also a NJTP toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 05, 2018, 11:03:05 AM
Regarding the toll on the connector bridge, for those accessing it from US Route 130 there is also a NJTP toll.
Correct, but that particular toll will not increase (for obvious reasons).  I stated similar many posts back and will repeat such again, the PA toll hits those that commute between US 130 and US 13 the hardest.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 05, 2018, 11:19:08 AM
The toll, technically speaking, is a PA Turnpike toll.  It has nothing to do with the bridge specifically.  The westbound toll is intended to cover the use of the road both ways between mid-span of the bridge and the I-95 interchange.    When any work occurs on the bridge, to build a new bridge, etc, they aren't taking money from tolls paid at the bridge. It comes out of the Turnpike's general budgets for roadwork.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 05, 2018, 11:20:27 AM
PA Turnpike Commission Approves Toll Increase for 2019.  Six percent increase for all vehicles will start Jan. 6 next year. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2018/20180703144436.htm)

Bold emphasis added in the below-quote:
Quote from: PA Turnpike Website
The toll increase will apply to all PA Turnpike sections and extensions, including the westbound Delaware River Bridge cashless tolling point (#359) in Bucks County, where tolls have not changed since January 2016.

Because of today’s action, the most-common toll for a passenger vehicle will increase next year from $1.30 to $1.38 for E-ZPass customers and from $2.10 to $2.25 for cash customers. The cashless toll at the westbound Delaware River Bridge will increase from $5.00 to $5.30 for E-ZPass customers and from $6.75 to $7.20 for those who use PA Turnpike TOLL-BY-PLATE. The most common toll for a Class-5 tractor-trailer truck will increase from $3.45 to $3.66 for E-ZPass and from $15.35 to $16.30 for cash. (Note, truckers in this class who use E-ZPass tend to take shorter trips than those who pay with cash or PA Turnpike TOLL-BY-PLATE).

With the above-increase, that PA-bound Delaware River Bridge will be the most expensive Delaware River crossing for all users.

At this rate, you'll need to take out a mortgage to drive the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 05, 2018, 11:56:41 AM
At this rate, you'll need to take out a mortgage to drive the Turnpike.

Or at least, a home equity line of credit (HELOC).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 05, 2018, 01:43:04 PM
The toll, technically speaking, is a PA Turnpike toll.  It has nothing to do with the bridge specifically.
While true, maybe it should be just for the bridge (especially for the new parallel span); especially given its exorbitant toll & the PTC's misguided Act 44 revenue allocations elsewhere in the system.  If memory serves, the elimination of the tolls between the bridge (or at least US 13) and the I-95 interchange was part of the federal mandate related to the I-95/PA Turnpike interchange... especially given that the Scudder Falls Bridge (New I-295/Old I-95) has no toll (yes, I know that the replacement one will be tolled but such will probably be cheaper).

The westbound toll is intended to cover the use of the road both ways between mid-span of the bridge and the I-95 interchange.
Such could be open for debate based on what was actually in the federal mandate regarding how much of I-95 along the PA Turnpike would be toll-free.  Plus it's a reasonable assumption to assume that nearly everybody here already knows the purpose/concept of how one-way tolls work here.  Additionally, I believe that every other tolled Delaware River crossing has been one-way for at least two decades now; so directly comparing the Turnpike tolls at this crossing compared to tolls at other crossings is valid.  Prior to this particular AET being erected, yes, one would have to take into account of the one-way vs. two-way toll scenario when doing a toll cost comparison.

When any work occurs on the bridge, to build a new bridge, etc, they aren't taking money from tolls paid at the bridge. It comes out of the Turnpike's general budgets for roadwork.
IMHO, that's probably a liability in terms of getting funds from the PA side to build the new parallel in a timely manner (i.e. sooner rather than later).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 05, 2018, 03:01:19 PM
IMHO, that's probably a liability in terms of getting funds from the PA side to build the new parallel in a timely manner (i.e. sooner rather than later).

Current AADT on the bridge is about 47,000.  Is there a current congestion problem at peak times?  What sort of increase is projected after the completion of the I-95 connection?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 05, 2018, 03:40:57 PM
The toll, technically speaking, is a PA Turnpike toll.  It has nothing to do with the bridge specifically.
While true, maybe it should be just for the bridge (especially for the new parallel span); especially given its exorbitant toll & the PTC's misguided Act 44 revenue allocations elsewhere in the system.  If memory serves, the elimination of the tolls between the bridge (or at least US 13) and the I-95 interchange was part of the federal mandate related to the I-95/PA Turnpike interchange... especially given that the Scudder Falls Bridge (New I-295/Old I-95) has no toll (yes, I know that the replacement one will be tolled but such will probably be cheaper).

The westbound toll is intended to cover the use of the road both ways between mid-span of the bridge and the I-95 interchange.
Such could be open for debate based on what was actually in the federal mandate regarding how much of I-95 along the PA Turnpike would be toll-free.  Plus it's a reasonable assumption to assume that nearly everybody here already knows the purpose/concept of how one-way tolls work here.  Additionally, I believe that every other tolled Delaware River crossing has been one-way for at least two decades now; so directly comparing the Turnpike tolls at this crossing compared to tolls at other crossings is valid.  Prior to this particular AET being erected, yes, one would have to take into account of the one-way vs. two-way toll scenario when doing a toll cost comparison.

When any work occurs on the bridge, to build a new bridge, etc, they aren't taking money from tolls paid at the bridge. It comes out of the Turnpike's general budgets for roadwork.
IMHO, that's probably a liability in terms of getting funds from the PA side to build the new parallel in a timely manner (i.e. sooner rather than later).

When the federal mandate was first issued back in the 1980's, it was well before any electronic toll collection was envisioned.  One of the original designs included a double trumpet from mainline 95 to the PA Turnpike.  Traffic going from I-95 East towards the NJ Turnpike bridge, and west from the NJ Turnpike to I-95, would need to stop and get a ticket, and then pay the toll a few miles later.

Thus, based on such a concept, I don't believe there was ever any mandate that this stretch of highway was supposed to be toll free.

In most cases, the tolling works to provide funds to the bridge agency/authority that has jurisdiction over the bridge, and they figured out that one-way tolling is just as effective as two-way tolling.  But, that's not how this toll point works.  It's simply a toll collection point for the PA Turnpike Commission, and the toll money raised can go to any funding needs along the entire turnpike.  This is exactly how the one-way tolling works on the western side of the PA Turnpike, which is far removed from any significant structure other than the Turnpike itself.

The NJ Turnpike gets no revenue from this particular toll on the PA side of the bridge.  However, all tolling points from the NJ Turnpike to Interchange 6, along with the Interchange 6A, incorporate a higher toll (compared to going further on the mainline NJ Turnpike).

IMHO, that's probably a liability in terms of getting funds from the PA side to build the new parallel in a timely manner (i.e. sooner rather than later).

Current AADT on the bridge is about 47,000.  Is there a current congestion problem at peak times?  What sort of increase is projected after the completion of the I-95 connection?

There's no congestion to speak of on a normal basis, and there's no true peak hour on this bridge. The worst of it would be on a very heavily traveled weekend or holiday period, and it generally isn't significant. I don't know what the increase is projected to be, but being they've pushed back the timeline of a parallel span to at least 2025, I'm guessing they believe increases in traffic won't be significant enough to warrant such a span until that time.

Of course, this is the northeast.  What they allow in terms of congestion is probably much greater than in other areas of the country.  If they believe the bridge will have some congestion starting after the 95 interchange is completed, they're willing to live with that for some time.  If it turns out a higher than expected number of vehicles follow the 95 signage, they may have to take a look to see if they can do anything faster.  The permitting process, especially related to the EPA, will probably take up much of the next several years anyway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on July 05, 2018, 06:13:15 PM
The NJ Turnpike toll from Exit 6A to cross the connector bridge is $3.00 ($2.00 off peak EZPass).  So the total toll to cross the bridge is actually $8.00 or $7.00, accordingly.  That is by far the most expensive toll across the Delaware River
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 06, 2018, 09:32:25 AM
When the federal mandate was first issued back in the 1980's, it was well before any electronic toll collection was envisioned.  One of the original designs included a double trumpet from mainline 95 to the PA Turnpike.  Traffic going from I-95 East towards the NJ Turnpike bridge, and west from the NJ Turnpike to I-95, would need to stop and get a ticket, and then pay the toll a few miles later.
If memory serves, the originally-planned dual-trumpet interchange w/a toll plaza for that area was designed years before the Somerset Freeway portion of I-95 was scrapped.  The design was based on the assumption that I-95 was still going to follow its originally-planned corridor via the then-proposed Somerset Freeway.

That interchange design was scrapped circa 1982 in favor of the current design once it became official that the original Somerset Freeway section of I-95 in NJ wasn't going to happen.  At a minimum, the feds did not want the through-I-95 movements at the proposed interchange to have a choke-point at the toll plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 19, 2018, 03:44:08 PM
Interesting.  Just noticed on one of the PA Turnpike website maps that the Willow Hill interchange (Exit 189) is now AET.  They used to have a machine that accepted cash and credit.  Now you scan your ticket and a bill is sent by mail.

https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/cash.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 20, 2018, 01:04:43 PM
That's odd.  Wouldn't it be easier to convert the ticket system all at once, rather than spend money on converting interchanges piecemeal only to throw out the new equipment when they go fully AET?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2018, 02:07:19 PM
That's odd.  Wouldn't it be easier to convert the ticket system all at once, rather than spend money on converting interchanges piecemeal only to throw out the new equipment when they go fully AET?

You would think that if the PA Turnpike has all of this money available, they should be able to give out a bunch of it to the rest of the state for non-turnpike related funding needs!   :-D :evilgrin:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 20, 2018, 07:37:59 PM
That's odd.  Wouldn't it be easier to convert the ticket system all at once, rather than spend money on converting interchanges piecemeal only to throw out the new equipment when they go fully AET?

To be fair, that is one of the lowest volume interchanges on the entire Turnpike, and the machine they had there generated multiple comments on Twitter about how bad it was to use.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 22, 2018, 12:26:11 PM
That's odd.  Wouldn't it be easier to convert the ticket system all at once, rather than spend money on converting interchanges piecemeal only to throw out the new equipment when they go fully AET?

To be fair, that is one of the lowest volume interchanges on the entire Turnpike, and the machine they had there generated multiple comments on Twitter about how bad it was to use.
Had Willow Hill been unstaffed? It's about a decade since I've used that interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 22, 2018, 04:59:01 PM
That's odd.  Wouldn't it be easier to convert the ticket system all at once, rather than spend money on converting interchanges piecemeal only to throw out the new equipment when they go fully AET?

To be fair, that is one of the lowest volume interchanges on the entire Turnpike, and the machine they had there generated multiple comments on Twitter about how bad it was to use.
Had Willow Hill been unstaffed? It's about a decade since I've used that interchange.

Think so.  Haven't exited but have glanced over on the highway and only saw two lanes - one automated and the other E-ZPass only.  They were supposed to do the same with Blue Mountain and Fort Littleton, but never did.

By the way, I also saw flash cameras in the entry lanes at the Willow Grove interchange that weren't there before but were functioning.  These were not reversible lanes in the middle of the plaza.  A poor soul from Quebec drove through an E-ZPass lane and tried taking a ticket.  He kept going after I honked.  Hopefully the cameras help calculate the correct toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 23, 2018, 11:26:33 AM
In the summer of 2002 I had an incident on the Turnpike that made me glad the Willow Hill toll plaza was still attended.

I was driving eastbound on the Turnpike with my wife, 3-year-old son, and 4-month-old daughter. As we emerged from the eastern end of the Tuscarora Tunnel, and rounded the bend driving in the left lane, I hit debris on the roadway just after the center barrier resumed. I couldn't avoid the debris because the left shoulder is nonexistent and there was a truck beside us in the right lane.

The debris hit the undercarriage of the car hard enough and made a "clunk" loud enough that I thought it prudent to pull over. The Willow Hill exit presented itself at that moment, so I exited, drove to the administrative building and pulled over onto a gravel area beside the small paved parking area.

Sure enough, when I got out and examined the car, there was a finger-width stream of gasoline pouring down onto the ground from the tank. I got the family out of the car and headed to the administrative office. I think there were three people on duty. They were very accommodating. Being in the middle of nowhere they often saw drivers exit with problems.

The Turnpike staff entertained my kids and provided me with the number of a local garage to call. At the foot of the exit ramp there was a pizzeria. We ate dinner there and the owners referred us to the Willow Hill Motel about a hundred yards down the road. They even gave us food for breakfast for the next morning and packed it in a tub of ice because they wouldn't be open in the morning. Very nice folks. We wondered to ourselves how they stayed in business way out there with hardly any supporting population. In fact, the pizzeria would close within a few years (although I think it's open again under new owners).

We got the gas tank replaced (it was a plastic tank) and were on our way by the afternoon of the following day.

Nice people at the Turnpike toll plaza, nice folks at the pizzeria, and nice folks at the motel. All in all, a pleasant if unwanted delay.

[Edited for typo correction.]
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on July 23, 2018, 08:33:48 PM
Yeah some days you win, or sometimes you can turn something bad into something good. I've heard similar good stories about toll-plaza staffs on the NJ Turnpike as well. I think all the big toll roads are kind of like that. They consider you a paying customer and treat you as such. That's a good thing in an otherwise messed up world. Too bad that in the coming era of all-electronic tolling, these toll plaza staffs may not exist anymore. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on July 30, 2018, 07:42:18 PM
In regards to Willow Hill, what you do is you scan your ticket, then push a button for your transaction record. You keep both, and wait for a bill in the mail.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on August 03, 2018, 07:58:14 AM
Figured I'd post this here, just in case anybody's interested.

This is the PTC Status Board that was likely taken out of commission between 1970-1973, based on a conversation from another thread (NY Thruway).  I took the picture at the State Museum of Pennsylvania in Harrisburg, in March 2017, if you'd like to check it out.  I figured I should mention it here if anybody wants to see a picture of it later!

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=13527.msg2346554#msg2346554
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 12:15:45 PM
Another thing that dates it is the use of I-81E instead of I-380, which Wikipedia tells me changed in 1973.

The map shown depicts an odd hodgepodge of routes and designations that didn’t all exist at one time. The Turnpike mainline is depicted as I-76 from Ohio to Monroeville, but that section was still designated I-80S until 1973. And I-81E had been redesigned I-380 the same year. (I’m not sure exactly when during that year, though.)

It’s hard to tell, but it appears that the map attempts to show the through I-79 alignment bypassing Pittsburgh as complete and designated as I-279, but the 79 and 279 designations had been swapped in 1971, and the road itself wasn’t actually complete until 1976.

I-78 is shown passing through the Lehigh Valley on the US 22 alignment, which would fit with the early ’70s timeframe, but I-476 is also shown, and it obviously wasn’t completed until well over a decade later. I can only assume that it was was shown in anticipation of its completion.

And there’s no mention of the PA 9 designation on the NE Extension that was added in 1974.

I drove thru there in 1972 and 1973 (actually was on a bus) and observed the tunnel bypasses with interest, but I can't recall whether the tie-ins between old and new were still traffic usable then.

Until the pavement condition deteriorated to the point where the old alignment became unusable, I think it would have been fairly easy for the PTC to reroute traffic over the Rays/Sideling section in an emergency. Until whenever it was (about 2006-07 if I recall correctly) that the US 30, Pump Station Rd, and Little Egypt Rd. overpasses were removed, it was still possible (though illegal) to simply veer right onto the old alignment at Breezewood, drive through both tunnels nonstop, then merge onto the active lanes of the Turnpike approaching Willow Hill. There would have been bottlenecks at both ends as State Police would have had to set up cones or other channelizing devices to route vehicles through a crossover and onto the old alignment–as well as at the two-lane tunnels–but the pavement was still continuous and traversable. If a longer term detour was necessary, the PTC could have easily set up barriers and temporary striping to allow non-stop four-lane access at both ends with almost no reduction in speed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on August 03, 2018, 01:17:13 PM
And there’s no mention of the PA 9 designation on the NE Extension that was added in 1974.
I'm wondering if PA-9 isn't mentioned simply because it's not an interstate.  I didn't notice any non-interstate routes mentioned at all on this map.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 01:42:09 PM
Perhaps that’s the case. They don’t have keystone shields on any of the western extensions either (43, 60, 66), although clearly, the overall execution in adding them to the board was rather amateur (a spin-and-squeeze label maker–really?). Given the attention to execution that was given to some of the other early/mid ’70s changes (redesignation of I-80S, redesignation of Parkway East as I-376) and also given the PTC’s general tendency to emphasize its own route numbers in signage and promotional materials, I am still a bit surprised it wasn’t added.

Based on the extent of those western extensions shown on the board, we can assume it was still in use until about 1993 at least.

Also noted: I’m a bit surprised that there’s no indication of I-176 either–being both an Interstate and a sort of “step child”  of the Turnpike, existing almost solely to connect the Turnpike with Reading.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on August 03, 2018, 03:48:58 PM
I drove thru there in 1972 and 1973 (actually was on a bus) and observed the tunnel bypasses with interest, but I can't recall whether the tie-ins between old and new were still traffic usable then.
Until the pavement condition deteriorated to the point where the old alignment became unusable, I think it would have been fairly easy for the PTC to reroute traffic over the Rays/Sideling section in an emergency. Until whenever it was (about 2006-07 if I recall correctly) that the US 30, Pump Station Rd, and Little Egypt Rd. overpasses were removed, it was still possible (though illegal) to simply veer right onto the old alignment at Breezewood, drive through both tunnels nonstop, then merge onto the active lanes of the Turnpike approaching Willow Hill. There would have been bottlenecks at both ends as State Police would have had to set up cones or other channelizing devices to route vehicles through a crossover and onto the old alignment–as well as at the two-lane tunnels–but the pavement was still continuous and traversable. If a longer term detour was necessary, the PTC could have easily set up barriers and temporary striping to allow non-stop four-lane access at both ends with almost no reduction in speed.

Depends on the amount of grade change at each tie-in, if considerable they would demolish and obscure at least 300 to 500 feet of the old highway, to where there would be an embankment in the way of any direct traffic connection.

I would have to review each of the four tie-ins, onsite, before I could make a determination.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 13, 2018, 08:26:25 AM
And there’s no mention of the PA 9 designation on the NE Extension that was added in 1974.
:confused: I thought the PA 9 designation for the NE Extension didn't happen until 1980.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 13, 2018, 01:44:01 PM
And there’s no mention of the PA 9 designation on the NE Extension that was added in 1974.
:confused: I thought the PA 9 designation for the NE Extension didn't happen until 1980.

I’m going by the PAHighways page on I-476 (http://www.pahighways.com/interstates/I476.html) which at the bottom lists “Former Designations...PA 9 (1974-1996)” .
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 13, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
And there’s no mention of the PA 9 designation on the NE Extension that was added in 1974.
:confused: I thought the PA 9 designation for the NE Extension didn't happen until 1980.

I’m going by the PAHighways page on I-476 (http://www.pahighways.com/interstates/I476.html) which at the bottom lists “Former Designations...PA 9 (1974-1996)” .
If one clicks on the PA 9 link (http://www.pahighways.com/state/PA1-50.html#PA9) further down in your posted link; one reads (bold emphasis added below):

Quote from: PA 1-50 link
In 1980, it was revived to designate the Northeast Extension of the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 13, 2018, 02:12:59 PM
Well...I guess it’s your choice of who to believe: Jeff Kitsko or Jeff Kitsko!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 13, 2018, 02:29:30 PM
Given that the now long-gone porcelain button-copy BGS' from the 1970s for the NE Extension displayed only the PA Turnpike shield & no other route shield; it's a reasonable assumption that 1980 was the correct date.

Example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/pennsylvania001/us-022_wb_at_pa-309_sb.jpg)

This one at the Norristown interchange had a PA 9 shield slapped on it during the early 90s:
(http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-76-276.jpg)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on August 13, 2018, 02:52:00 PM
On another topic, I'm curious as to why the Zelienople service plaza closed. Ever since the closure, there is an 82 mile gap in westbound services between New Stanton and Mahoning Valley (on the Ohio Turnpike). I could understand it being closed eastbound because of the nearby Oakmont Plum, but not westbound. Was it closed due to finances, or Turnpike work in the area (such as widening)?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on August 13, 2018, 09:53:46 PM
On another topic, I'm curious as to why the Zelienople service plaza closed. Ever since the closure, there is an 82 mile gap in westbound services between New Stanton and Mahoning Valley (on the Ohio Turnpike). I could understand it being closed eastbound because of the nearby Oakmont Plum, but not westbound. Was it closed due to finances, or Turnpike work in the area (such as widening)?

I'm guessing because of them making that section of the Turnpike free.  More people now get off at US-19/I-79 (Cranberry) to use the services there than they would have in the past do to no toll booths anymore.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on August 14, 2018, 12:02:47 PM
Given that the now long-gone porcelain button-copy BGS' from the 1970s for the NE Extension displayed only the PA Turnpike shield & no other route shield; it's a reasonable assumption that 1980 was the correct date.

Example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/pennsylvania001/us-022_wb_at_pa-309_sb.jpg)

This one at the Norristown interchange had a PA 9 shield slapped on it during the early 90s:
(http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-76-276.jpg)
Was this the case on signage on the mainline as well?  Rarely would I hear people in PA refer to "476" or "76," it was always just "the Turnpike" and "the Extension."
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 14, 2018, 01:43:48 PM
Given that the now long-gone porcelain button-copy BGS' from the 1970s for the NE Extension displayed only the PA Turnpike shield & no other route shield; it's a reasonable assumption that 1980 was the correct date.

Example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/pennsylvania001/us-022_wb_at_pa-309_sb.jpg)

This one at the Norristown interchange had a PA 9 shield slapped on it during the early 90s:
(http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-76-276.jpg)
Was this the case on signage on the mainline as well?  Rarely would I hear people in PA refer to "476" or "76," it was always just "the Turnpike" and "the Extension."
Then & now, the PTC hardly use pull-through signs for its mainline corridors; it only uses such at locations where a route number changes (example: Valley Forge I-76/276, route numbers are used).  Even at locations where a route enters/exits the Turnpike (example: I-70 at both Breezwood & New Stanton interchanges); the PTC rarely uses pull-through signage.

The use of pull-through signage at the I-376/Pittsburgh interchange (Exit 57) is a carry-over from when I-76 used to exit off the Turnpike and follow the current I-376 into Pittsburgh (the Turnpike west of there was I-80S) prior to 1972.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on August 15, 2018, 11:14:50 AM
Given that the now long-gone porcelain button-copy BGS' from the 1970s for the NE Extension displayed only the PA Turnpike shield & no other route shield; it's a reasonable assumption that 1980 was the correct date.

Example:
<photo>

This one at the Norristown interchange had a PA 9 shield slapped on it during the early 90s:
<photo>
Was this the case on signage on the mainline as well?  Rarely would I hear people in PA refer to "476" or "76," it was always just "the Turnpike" and "the Extension."
Then & now, the PTC hardly use pull-through signs for its mainline corridors; it only uses such at locations where a route number changes (example: Valley Forge I-76/276, route numbers are used).  Even at locations where a route enters/exits the Turnpike (example: I-70 at both Breezwood & New Stanton interchanges); the PTC rarely uses pull-through signage.

The use of pull-through signage at the I-376/Pittsburgh interchange (Exit 57) is a carry-over from when I-76 used to exit off the Turnpike and follow the current I-376 into Pittsburgh (the Turnpike west of there was I-80S) prior to 1972.
Sorry, I meant to ask if that was the case on signage approaching the turnpike (i.e. after you pass through the toll booth but before entering the highway).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 15, 2018, 11:26:56 AM
Sorry, I meant to ask if that was the case on signage approaching the turnpike (i.e. after you pass through the toll booth but before entering the highway).
Old-school signage beyond the toll plaza simply listed a control city (in all-CAPS button-copy) & direction cardinal.  Prior to the NE Extension receiving the I-476 designation; these old signs did not have PA 9 trailblazer signage.  As a matter of fact, there was very little PA 9 signage posted along the Extension even through the mid-1990s.

When the NE Extension became I-476, supplemental I-476 trailblazer signage was added to the surviving old-school signs (usually posted underneath the main signage).   Most of these old signs were replaced during the early 2000s with more standard MUTCD-compliant BGS'.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on August 15, 2018, 04:29:55 PM
Sorry, I meant to ask if that was the case on signage approaching the turnpike (i.e. after you pass through the toll booth but before entering the highway).
Old-school signage beyond the toll plaza simply listed a control city (in all-CAPS button-copy) & direction cardinal.  Prior to the NE Extension receiving the I-476 designation; these old signs did not have PA 9 trailblazer signage.  As a matter of fact, there was very little PA 9 signage posted along the Extension even through the mid-1990s.

When the NE Extension became I-476, supplemental I-476 trailblazer signage was added to the surviving old-school signs (usually posted underneath the main signage).   Most of these old signs were replaced during the early 2000s with more standard MUTCD-compliant BGS'.

I went to college from 1996-2000; my usual route from Long Island was to take I-80 through NJ to I-380 to I-81 to NY-79.  Near Scranton (and I think on I-80 and I-380 as well if memory serves), signage pointing out the Northeast Extension had a PA-9 keystone maker thrown on the sign almost as an afterthought.  In one case, I distinctly remember a rural BGS on the side of the road with a PA-9 keystone slapped under the BGS on one of the support posts.  It's almost as if PennDOT and/or PTC resisted signing the PA-9 designation.

Pretty sure many of those went away when PA switched from sequential exit numbers to milepost-based exit numbers in 2003 (I think?), but who knows.  I haven't driven or been a passenger on I-80 or I-380 in PA in at LEAST 12 years.  I still see signage on I-78 where it's clear from sign fading patterns that they just slapped the new exit number on the tab, maybe put up one of those "OLD EXIT XX" signs that will be there until the year 2525, and called it a day.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 15, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
I went to college from 1996-2000; my usual route from Long Island was to take I-80 through NJ to I-380 to I-81 to NY-79.  Near Scranton (and I think on I-80 and I-380 as well if memory serves), signage pointing out the Northeast Extension had a PA-9 keystone maker thrown on the sign almost as an afterthought.  In one case, I distinctly remember a rural BGS on the side of the road with a PA-9 keystone slapped under the BGS on one of the support posts.  It's almost as if PennDOT and/or PTC resisted signing the PA-9 designation.
It's quite possible that PA may have been anticipating seeking an Interstate designation for the NE Extension long before 1996; they may have wanted to wait and see if/when the Blue Route portion of I-476 would ever connect to the Turnpike (it did circa 1992).  As result, the PTC was likely directed to erect minimal PA 9 signage.  No sense placing a whole bunch of route shields along a road if they're going to be taken down a relatively short time later.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on August 15, 2018, 08:31:33 PM
PHLBOS, you rekindled memories of my college days with that "Harrisburg/Pittsburgh/and Ohio" sign (of which IIRC there was also one at Valley Forge).  They were the PTC's answer to the departed "N J TURNPIKE/SOUTH/Pa. - Del. - Md." sign in North Bergen, i.e. signs that said, "America awaits you!"

OTOH where were the quality assurance crew when it came to centering "New Jersey/Northeastern/Extension/Scranton" on the other sign?   :)

Thank you.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on August 15, 2018, 08:33:48 PM
Sorry, I meant to ask if that was the case on signage approaching the turnpike (i.e. after you pass through the toll booth but before entering the highway).
Old-school signage beyond the toll plaza simply listed a control city (in all-CAPS button-copy) & direction cardinal.  Prior to the NE Extension receiving the I-476 designation; these old signs did not have PA 9 trailblazer signage.  As a matter of fact, there was very little PA 9 signage posted along the Extension even through the mid-1990s.

When the NE Extension became I-476, supplemental I-476 trailblazer signage was added to the surviving old-school signs (usually posted underneath the main signage).   Most of these old signs were replaced during the early 2000s with more standard MUTCD-compliant BGS'.

I went to college from 1996-2000; my usual route from Long Island was to take I-80 through NJ to I-380 to I-81 to NY-79.  Near Scranton (and I think on I-80 and I-380 as well if memory serves), signage pointing out the Northeast Extension had a PA-9 keystone maker thrown on the sign almost as an afterthought.  In one case, I distinctly remember a rural BGS on the side of the road with a PA-9 keystone slapped under the BGS on one of the support posts.  It's almost as if PennDOT and/or PTC resisted signing the PA-9 designation.
I noticed the same pattern on the old 70s-style button copy signs on I-80 at PA-940/I-476 when I was growing up, likewise with the pictures.  Again, I personally feel like the PA Turnpike signage just said that because all people cared about was that it was the Turnpike and nothing else.

(and of course I'm wrong since I just checked Steve Alpert's site, notice the signage at US-11/I-76: http://alpsroads.net/roads/pa/i-81/n.html)

I went to college from 1996-2000; my usual route from Long Island was to take I-80 through NJ to I-380 to I-81 to NY-79.  Near Scranton (and I think on I-80 and I-380 as well if memory serves), signage pointing out the Northeast Extension had a PA-9 keystone maker thrown on the sign almost as an afterthought.  In one case, I distinctly remember a rural BGS on the side of the road with a PA-9 keystone slapped under the BGS on one of the support posts.  It's almost as if PennDOT and/or PTC resisted signing the PA-9 designation.
It's quite possible that PA may have been anticipating seeking an Interstate designation for the NE Extension long before 1996; they may have wanted to wait and see if/when the Blue Route portion of I-476 would ever connect to the Turnpike (it did circa 1992).  As result, the PTC was likely directed to erect minimal PA 9 signage.  No sense placing a whole bunch of route shields along a road if they're going to be taken down a relatively short time later.
I was 2 when PA-9 was turned over to I-476 so I've just been dying to see photos of signs with the designation.  I remember back in 2003 or so we were driving on I-476 around Villanova (where my uncle lived at the time) and there was a sign that said "I-476 Formerly PA-9" or something like that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on August 16, 2018, 08:23:08 AM
(and of course I'm wrong since I just checked Steve Alpert's site, notice the signage at US-11/I-76: http://alpsroads.net/roads/pa/i-81/n.html)

I remember a metric crap-ton of those center-tabbed, button-copy BGSs from 1996-2000 on the section of I-80 from the NJ state line (what IS Del Water Gap anyway?  it's not a town...) to I-380.  Even back then I thought "holy crap those look OLD."  Of course they didn't have the new exit numbers pasted haphazardly on the signs, since PA hadn't changed to milepost-based exit numbers yet.  I remember also thinking it incredibly stupid that PA didn't assign exit numbers to interstate-interstate junctions, so it was something like exit 53 down to exit 49, junction I-380, then exit 48 or something dumb like that.  I'd think... "Okay, exit 52... what exit is I-380?  It isn't an exit?  WTF mate?"

(Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_in_Pennsylvania), it was exit 44, junction I-380, exit 43...  my memory is apparently crap.  I did remeber that exit 53 was the first exit on 80 in PA, just as 68 was the last exit on 81 in PA...)

I-380 got re-surfaced during that timeframe (it was two-way, single-lane operation for AT LEAST a year, if memory serves), and they connected US-6 to I-81.  They put up a sign in Dunmore that listed exits that said "DUNMORE EXITS" and listed them.  I joked with my dad on one of the drives, "oh, the construction people here are hicks... they want you to know what they did... look, we done more exits..."

I really wish I'd taken pictures of signs... but back then, digital cameras weren't really a thing and I wouldn't have pulled over to take a road sign photo as I didn't think that was exactly legal.  I had no idea PA would change exit numbers and replace signage so soon after I graduated.

I would definitely have gotten the PA-9 shield under the Turnpike BGS, as I thought it was such an odd, haphazard way to sign a route number.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 16, 2018, 08:44:08 AM
(what IS Del Water Gap anyway?  it's not a town...)

Technically, there is a borough with that name in PA: https://www.delawarewatergap.com/

Otherwise, Delaware Water Gap is referring to a National Recreation Area.  Not exactly BGS proper though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on August 16, 2018, 09:11:56 AM
(and of course I'm wrong since I just checked Steve Alpert's site, notice the signage at US-11/I-76: http://alpsroads.net/roads/pa/i-81/n.html)

I remember a metric crap-ton of those center-tabbed, button-copy BGSs from 1996-2000 on the section of I-80 from the NJ state line (what IS Del Water Gap anyway?  it's not a town...) to I-380.  Even back then I thought "holy crap those look OLD."  Of course they didn't have the new exit numbers pasted haphazardly on the signs, since PA hadn't changed to milepost-based exit numbers yet.  I remember also thinking it incredibly stupid that PA didn't assign exit numbers to interstate-interstate junctions, so it was something like exit 53 down to exit 49, junction I-380, then exit 48 or something dumb like that.  I'd think... "Okay, exit 52... what exit is I-380?  It isn't an exit?  WTF mate?"
Yeah, I remember that too back when I started really paying attention to roads.  What really got me were the ancient signs on I-81/83 in Harrisburg when we went on a field trip there in 5th grade.  I just remember thinking, "why does the state capital have such old worn out signs?"  Also remember the ones on I-180 in Williamsport...and US-1 north of Philadelphia (Yardley/Newtown area).  I didn't really like them much as a kid, thinking that they just made the road look like PennDOT stopped caring about it, but then I grew to like those signs.

Speaking of exit numbering in PA, the best is when my father and I were driving back from a trip to DC and were heading to my grandparents' house in Bloomsburg.  I didn't know the roads super well back then so I thought taking I-81 to I-80 made the most sense.  We were around Pottsville (Exit 107) and I told him we needed Exit 151 for I-80.  He just blurted out (he lived in CT for a long time, where exit numbers are sequential), "We have to go 40 more exits!?!?!" ...not realizing that the exits were mile based.  I think he called my grandparents and my grandfather rerouted him through Centralia, which was the better route anyway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 16, 2018, 09:17:22 AM
I was 2 when PA-9 was turned over to I-476 so I've just been dying to see photos of signs with the designation.  I remember back in 2003 or so we were driving on I-476 around Villanova (where my uncle lived at the time) and there was a sign that said "I-476 Formerly PA-9" or something like that.
Found this one from 1993 while doing a Google Search (for PA Route 9):
(http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-276-pa-9.jpg)

This one shows a PA 9 shield underneath the I-476 shield (at the PA 100/Downingtown interchange):
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4331664758_fed2a71304_b.jpg)

Not much else.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on August 16, 2018, 09:37:53 AM
(what IS Del Water Gap anyway?  it's not a town...)

Technically, there is a borough with that name in PA: https://www.delawarewatergap.com/

Otherwise, Delaware Water Gap is referring to a National Recreation Area.

Well, or a water gap…
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on August 16, 2018, 09:40:59 AM
Exactly.  It is a geographic feature that was one of the first ways west from New Jersey forged in the 18th Century.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on August 16, 2018, 10:36:16 AM
I was 2 when PA-9 was turned over to I-476 so I've just been dying to see photos of signs with the designation.  I remember back in 2003 or so we were driving on I-476 around Villanova (where my uncle lived at the time) and there was a sign that said "I-476 Formerly PA-9" or something like that.
Found this one from 1993 while doing a Google Search (for PA Route 9):
...img snip...
This one shows a PA 9 shield underneath the I-476 shield (at the PA 100/Downingtown interchange):
..img snip...

Not much else.

Another example at the Norristown Interchange, that was even moved to the new monotube (before those were replaced).
https://goo.gl/maps/82T2odygPdv


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 16, 2018, 10:50:08 AM
Another example at the Norristown Interchange, that was even moved to the new monotube (before those were replaced).
https://goo.gl/maps/82T2odygPdv
Containing the erroneous 76 WEST message.  Thankfully, the replacement sign has the correct (for this location) 276 WEST message.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on August 16, 2018, 11:47:14 AM
I was 2 when PA-9 was turned over to I-476 so I've just been dying to see photos of signs with the designation.  I remember back in 2003 or so we were driving on I-476 around Villanova (where my uncle lived at the time) and there was a sign that said "I-476 Formerly PA-9" or something like that.
Found this one from 1993 while doing a Google Search (for PA Route 9):
(http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/northeast/i-276-pa-9.jpg)
Aha...I'd been wondering about that one for a while, wasn't sure where it disappeared to.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on August 16, 2018, 12:34:52 PM
Another example at the Norristown Interchange, that was even moved to the new monotube (before those were replaced).
https://goo.gl/maps/82T2odygPdv
Containing the erroneous 76 WEST message.  Thankfully, the replacement sign has the correct (for this location) 276 WEST message.

Ha... I don't think I ever noticed that (though I recall it has been brought up before now...). "Hidden" in plain sight.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on August 16, 2018, 11:55:47 PM
(and of course I'm wrong since I just checked Steve Alpert's site, notice the signage at US-11/I-76: http://alpsroads.net/roads/pa/i-81/n.html)

I remember a metric crap-ton of those center-tabbed, button-copy BGSs from 1996-2000 on the section of I-80 from the NJ state line (what IS Del Water Gap anyway?  it's not a town...) to I-380.  Even back then I thought "holy crap those look OLD."

I LOVED that style of BGSs!  Ohio had a few like that and so did Colorado, but PA's seemed to last the longest.

Was that center, no-line tab something that the MUTCD (if it was around then) was experimenting with in the early-mid 70s?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on August 17, 2018, 06:36:42 AM
(what IS Del Water Gap anyway?  it's not a town...)

Actually, it is a town (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_Water_Gap,_Pennsylvania) (though a very small one), but the borough is named for the actual gap for water (https://goo.gl/maps/wNfTwZDktqH2) through the mountain range that's there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: empirestate on August 17, 2018, 09:01:50 AM
what IS Del Water Gap anyway?

It's a this (https://viewer.nationalmap.gov/advanced-viewer/viewer/index.html?marker=-75.122222,40.9675,4326,from%20Delaware_Water_Gap,,Delaware%20Water%20Gap&scale=50000).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on August 17, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
I LOVED that style of BGSs!  Ohio had a few like that and so did Colorado, but PA's seemed to last the longest.

Was that center, no-line tab something that the MUTCD (if it was around then) was experimenting with in the early-mid 70s?

The phrase "manual of uniform traffic control devices" as a title template for traffic manuals dates from about 1935.  And no, exit tabs without underline were never part of any edition of the MUTCD.  The 1961 edition does not mention exit tabs at all, while the 1971 edition shows center-mounted tabs exclusively with no break in main sign panel border underneath the tab.  The 1978 edition was the first to incorporate art showing tabs aligned left or right to match the orientation of the exit, but I can see no text even suggesting, let alone mandating, that tab alignment match exit orientation.

Scanned old MUTCD editions on Richard Moeur's Traffic Signs website (http://www.trafficsign.us/oldmutcd.html)

Multiple styles of exit tab were tried in the early days of exit numbering, and some of them were frankly weird.  Here are some examples (sourcing in parentheses):

*  VA:  Two-line, bottom-mounted (1967 Congressional report on guide signing deficiencies)

*  PA:  One-line, center-mounted, not divided from main sign panel (photos of surviving examples on various roadgeek websites; original construction plans from the days when the PennDOT FTP server was still publicly accessible)

*  CO:  Stacked "MILE" and "EXIT" tabs (old CDOT construction plans; the 1971 MUTCD mentioned the option of dual-posting exits according to milepost and sequential number, and Colorado was one of the few states to try this)

*  AZ:  Left-mounted (even for right exits) two-line tabs (~1970 Interstate construction plans downloadable through Arizona DOT's ROAD database)

*  GA:  Full-width (integral with main sign panel) with one-line exit number message, centered, and ruled line separating it from main sign legend (multiple construction plans downloadable through GDOT's TransPI database)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on August 19, 2018, 10:37:13 PM
The phrase "manual of uniform traffic control devices"
On, not of. (:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 22, 2018, 01:28:23 AM
Earlier this month, I clinched the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The six-lane segments near Pittsburgh and Harrisburg look great, and I look forward to seeing more and more of the Turnpike get reconstructed and widened, especially in western Pennsylvania, where the four-lane segments are in much worse shape than they are in eastern Pennsylvania. I was actually surprised by how well-kept the four-lane segment from Harrisburg to the outer Philadelphia suburbs is, and because of that, I predict that the segment from Harrisburg to near Reading will be the last to get reconstructed and widened.

By the way, if the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and PennDOT are not going to fix Breezewood anytime soon, then they need to build a direct connection between the Turnpike and I-99 in Bedford, and reconstruct and widen the segment from Bedford to Breezewood to six lanes. There was a random traffic jam where the Turnpike climbs the hill just east of Bedford. Another thing to consider is tacking on extra lanes on the four-lane segment from New Stanton to Donegal that was reconstructed 15-20 years ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on August 22, 2018, 07:05:41 AM
The east-west turnpike west of New Stanton and east of Morgantown is already in planning and design for 6-lane reconstruction of the parts not yet widened.  Also the NE Extension between the east-west turnpike and Quakertown.  This will address the busiest segments, although the busy segment between Quakertown and Allentown is not yet included but needs to be.

The overlap section with I-70 should get priority after those, as it has volumes considerably higher than between Breezewood and Carlisle which carries I-76 alone.  Plus the fact that it carries I-70 corridor traffic in addition to I-76 traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2018, 09:33:06 AM
Earlier this month, I clinched the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The six-lane segments near Pittsburgh and Harrisburg look great, and I look forward to seeing more and more of the Turnpike get reconstructed and widened, especially in western Pennsylvania, where the four-lane segments are in much worse shape than they are in eastern Pennsylvania. I was actually surprised by how well-kept the four-lane segment from Harrisburg to the outer Philadelphia suburbs is, and because of that, I predict that the segment from Harrisburg to near Reading will be the last to get reconstructed and widened.

By the way, if the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and PennDOT are not going to fix Breezewood anytime soon, then they need to build a direct connection between the Turnpike and I-99 in Bedford, and reconstruct and widen the segment from Bedford to Breezewood to six lanes. There was a random traffic jam where the Turnpike climbs the hill just east of Bedford. Another thing to consider is tacking on extra lanes on the four-lane segment from New Stanton to Donegal that was reconstructed 15-20 years ago.

I don't recall ever sitting in traffic there.  It would matter a bit if the random traffic jam was due to traffic, or residue traffic from an accident or construction that had been cleaned up prior to you getting to that point.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 22, 2018, 05:30:52 PM
By the way, if the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and PennDOT are not going to fix Breezewood anytime soon, then they need to build a direct connection between the Turnpike and I-99 in Bedford, and reconstruct and widen the segment from Bedford to Breezewood to six lanes. There was a random traffic jam where the Turnpike climbs the hill just east of Bedford. Another thing to consider is tacking on extra lanes on the four-lane segment from New Stanton to Donegal that was reconstructed 15-20 years ago.

Local politicians notwithstanding (though they certainly are a major factor), adding 2 simple ramps from the Breezewood spur to "free" I-70 in Breezewood would be So much easier than some kind of direct interchange with I-99.  It seems like the topography is a little more difficult there, plus the close proximity from the  I-99 US-220/ US-30 Cloverleaf (to the south) and the local Business-220 trumpet (to the north) would make shoehorning some kind of freeway-freeway interchange an expensive proposition.
There are design projects on the books to widen sections of the turnpike between Bedford & Breezewood to 6 lanes - but they may have built themselves into a proverbial corner with newer structures around the Juiniata River crossing (both the TPK, and US-30 crossing the TPK and the river) making that pretty difficult, or expensive. (Just my opinion)
The problem with more lanes between New Stanton & Donegal is, as you pointed out, it's "only" been 15-20 years.  They'll want to get a lot more use out of that before having to rebuild that - plus they still have so much they haven't gotten to.  I'm not saying they wouldn't do this in another 30 years or so, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

As for other sections, there are a lot of projects encompassing it, but construction has really slowed down (Irwin - Monroeville has been postponed 2 years or so, money issues given). I suspect Act 44 payments are probably one of the big reasons.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 22, 2018, 09:16:43 PM
They are well into th Southern Beltway extension to 79 and still looks like Mon Fay to PA 885 will start in the spring.  Once the 95 interchange wraps, I hope to see more mainline work.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mrsman on September 18, 2018, 02:09:06 PM
On another topic, I'm curious as to why the Zelienople service plaza closed. Ever since the closure, there is an 82 mile gap in westbound services between New Stanton and Mahoning Valley (on the Ohio Turnpike). I could understand it being closed eastbound because of the nearby Oakmont Plum, but not westbound. Was it closed due to finances, or Turnpike work in the area (such as widening)?

I'm guessing because of them making that section of the Turnpike free.  More people now get off at US-19/I-79 (Cranberry) to use the services there than they would have in the past do to no toll booths anymore.

But it's not necessarily true that free turnpikes mean lack of business at the plaza.  The JFK turnpike in MD is now free, except for the bridge over the Susquehanna River, and the plazas still get decent traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beeper1 on September 18, 2018, 11:21:31 PM
IIRC, Zelienople was actually closed due to lack of traffic the last time the service plaza concession contracts were re-upped. HMS Host did not want to operate it due to low traffic and sales volumes.


Being a free section of road doesn't usually drop service area usage.   See the service plazas in Connecticut, on the NY Parkways, and the non-toll roads in Mass.     
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on September 19, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
and the non-toll roads in Mass.     

I lived in Mass from 2000-2008 (with the exception of a brief period that I lived in NH).  I don't recall a service plaza located anywhere off the Mass Pike.  Unless you are counting the free section between exits 1 and 6?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on September 19, 2018, 03:45:15 PM
^ I seem to recall reading something about a Howard Johnson’s restaurant formerly having been wedged into a small parcel (such as in the median or within an interchange) directly attached to I-93 near Quincy. Does anyone recall the details?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ian on September 19, 2018, 04:58:17 PM
and the non-toll roads in Mass.     

I lived in Mass from 2000-2008 (with the exception of a brief period that I lived in NH).  I don't recall a service plaza located anywhere off the Mass Pike.  Unless you are counting the free section between exits 1 and 6?

There are several (but not many) off the Pike. The ones that come to mind are I-95 southbound in Newton (just north of MA 16), I-95 northbound in Lexington (just south of MA 2A), and both directions of MA 24 just north of the I-495 junction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on September 19, 2018, 05:06:20 PM
^ I seem to recall reading something about a Howard Johnson’s restaurant formerly having been wedged into a small parcel (such as in the median or within an interchange) directly attached to I-93 near Quincy. Does anyone recall the details?
That Hojo's was along I-93 southbound (Southeast Expressway) just prior to the Braintree Split (Exit 7/MA 3).  It was torn down when Southeast Expressway was overhauled circa 1984-85.

and the non-toll roads in Mass.     

I lived in Mass from 2000-2008 (with the exception of a brief period that I lived in NH).  I don't recall a service plaza located anywhere off the Mass Pike.  Unless you are counting the free section between exits 1 and 6?

There are several (but not many) off the Pike. The ones that come to mind are I-95 southbound in Newton (just north of MA 16), I-95 northbound in Lexington (just south of MA 2A), and both directions of MA 24 just north of the I-495 junction.
There's also one along MA 128 northbound in Beverly just beyond Exit 19 (Sohier Rd//Brimbal Ave.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on September 20, 2018, 08:59:38 PM
^ I seem to recall reading something about a Howard Johnson’s restaurant formerly having been wedged into a small parcel (such as in the median or within an interchange) directly attached to I-93 near Quincy. Does anyone recall the details?
That Hojo's was along I-93 southbound (Southeast Expressway) just prior to the Braintree Split (Exit 7/MA 3).  It was torn down when Southeast Expressway was overhauled circa 1984-85.
OT... but it looks like that area was still used for staging 10 years later according to the historic aerials. I know the whole split was rehabbed in the early 2000s, so maybe it didn't revert to its current green state until after that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on September 21, 2018, 01:08:25 AM
On a slightly different note, the only parts of the PA Turnpike system that aren't AET (and not on the mainline or NE Extension) are the Mon-Fayette Expressway and PA 66. Do you think that the PTC wants all that done before moving on to the main sections?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 21, 2018, 10:08:48 PM
On a slightly different note, the only parts of the PA Turnpike system that aren't AET (and not on the mainline or NE Extension) are the Mon-Fayette Expressway and PA 66. Do you think that the PTC wants all that done before moving on to the main sections?

Makes sense to convert the coin drop extensions first IMO.  Guess we'll see if there's any announcement early next year (since conversions tend to occur in the spring).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on September 23, 2018, 09:16:20 AM
Not a service plaza, but MA 116 had a rest area south of Sunderland, MA.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on September 26, 2018, 04:11:58 PM
There are several (but not many) off the Pike. The ones that come to mind are I-95 southbound in Newton (just north of MA 16), I-95 northbound in Lexington (just south of MA 2A), and both directions of MA 24 just north of the I-495 junction.

Ah, not areas I got to often, with the exception of 128 in Lexington.  I either don't remember that one or REALLY didn't pay attention while driving (the latter I doubt).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 01, 2018, 12:00:08 AM
The new LED lighting is now operational in the southbound Lehigh Tunnel. Overall, seemed brighter than the older lighting it replaced. As it was night, not able to say if there is any difference in illumination at entry/exit.

Another addition is blue lights along the left-hand lane over hydrants and exit-portals. The blue LEDs were not that bright, but noticeable.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on October 01, 2018, 01:15:18 AM
I drove through there last night around 10 p.m. and the tunnel traffic was reduced to one lane in each direction with southbound traffic directed to crossover to the northbound (old, rectangular) tube. I wondered why–and now I know. Thanks for the update. I’ll be sure to notice the lighting next time through.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 01, 2018, 07:59:25 AM
Funny, that is right around the same time I went through ... Must have just missed a closing, although didn't appear anything was imminent to happen... (10:05ish, 10:10pm at the latest)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 01, 2018, 09:53:34 PM
I drove through there last night around 10 p.m. and the tunnel traffic was reduced to one lane in each direction with southbound traffic directed to crossover to the northbound (old, rectangular) tube. I wondered why–and now I know. Thanks for the update. I’ll be sure to notice the lighting next time through.

We passed through the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel as they were getting ready to shift all eastbound traffic to the left lane of the normally westbound tube.  A massive amount of manpower and trucks are used to make the change (I do not think I have driven or ridden a "two-way" tunnel on the PTC system since the days when there were two lane undivided tunnels still operating on the Northeast Extension and before that on the East-West Mainline).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on October 08, 2018, 04:26:21 PM
Interesting.  Just noticed on one of the PA Turnpike website maps that the Willow Hill interchange (Exit 189) is now AET.  They used to have a machine that accepted cash and credit.  Now you scan your ticket and a bill is sent by mail.

https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/cash.aspx

Bumping this conversation up, Google Street View recently drove through and here's what the ticket machines now read (not too much information from it though): https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0941592,-77.8134294,3a,72.6y,84.17h,64.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8kiSMUUmPMqtDDsfViWZrw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 09, 2018, 03:51:44 PM
Interesting.  Just noticed on one of the PA Turnpike website maps that the Willow Hill interchange (Exit 189) is now AET.  They used to have a machine that accepted cash and credit.  Now you scan your ticket and a bill is sent by mail.

https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/cash.aspx

Bumping this conversation up, Google Street View recently drove through and here's what the ticket machines now read (not too much information from it though): https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0941592,-77.8134294,3a,72.6y,84.17h,64.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8kiSMUUmPMqtDDsfViWZrw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Looks like they rebuilt one of the self-service machines that were used on the N.E. Extension at Kaiser Rd & Clarks Summit (From 2012: https://goo.gl/maps/RMqs5LPcA7G2)

Since the conversion to AET there, they put plywood over the old machines... You can sort-of see the old LED matrix that was halfway between the upper and lower baskets.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 09, 2018, 04:53:38 PM
Interesting.  Just noticed on one of the PA Turnpike website maps that the Willow Hill interchange (Exit 189) is now AET.  They used to have a machine that accepted cash and credit.  Now you scan your ticket and a bill is sent by mail.

https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/cash.aspx

Bumping this conversation up, Google Street View recently drove through and here's what the ticket machines now read (not too much information from it though): https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0941592,-77.8134294,3a,72.6y,84.17h,64.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8kiSMUUmPMqtDDsfViWZrw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Looks like they rebuilt one of the self-service machines that were used on the N.E. Extension at Kaiser Rd & Clarks Summit (From 2012: https://goo.gl/maps/RMqs5LPcA7G2)

Since the conversion to AET there, they put plywood over the old machines... You can sort-of see the old LED matrix that was halfway between the upper and lower baskets.

They actually used to be the same machines that were on the Ohio Turnpike.  There is still a video of the machine on the Turnpike website

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/multimedia_presentations.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on October 09, 2018, 05:23:17 PM
Does the PTC plan to remove the toll plazas from the newly-AET sections at some point?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 09, 2018, 11:38:15 PM
Interesting.  Just noticed on one of the PA Turnpike website maps that the Willow Hill interchange (Exit 189) is now AET.  They used to have a machine that accepted cash and credit.  Now you scan your ticket and a bill is sent by mail.

https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/cash.aspx

Bumping this conversation up, Google Street View recently drove through and here's what the ticket machines now read (not too much information from it though): https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0941592,-77.8134294,3a,72.6y,84.17h,64.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8kiSMUUmPMqtDDsfViWZrw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Looks like they rebuilt one of the self-service machines that were used on the N.E. Extension at Kaiser Rd & Clarks Summit (From 2012: https://goo.gl/maps/RMqs5LPcA7G2)

Since the conversion to AET there, they put plywood over the old machines... You can sort-of see the old LED matrix that was halfway between the upper and lower baskets.

They actually used to be the same machines that were on the Ohio Turnpike.  There is still a video of the machine on the Turnpike website

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/multimedia_presentations.aspx

Thanks for that link, hadn't seen that before. I'm actually impressed the Turnpike is upcycling (for lack of better term).

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 10, 2018, 10:08:05 AM
Not sure if such was posted before.  PA Turnpike Cashless Tolling (conversion) Overview (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/Cashless_Tolling_Overview.pdf) from May 7, 2018.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on October 10, 2018, 12:56:11 PM
^  Thanks.  This is the first I have seen of this schedule.

One note on the timeline . . . is there a future Exit 289 EZPass exit to be constructed (see October 2022 target), or should it say 298?  Does not seem like much out there for such an interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 10, 2018, 12:58:56 PM
So they're just going to have traffic go slowly through the existing barriers at many spots?  Wow, they're REALLY cheaping out on this!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on October 10, 2018, 01:05:27 PM
^  Thanks.  This is the first I have seen of this schedule.

One note on the timeline . . . is there a future Exit 289 EZPass exit to be constructed (see October 2022 target), or should it say 298?  Does not seem like much out there for such an interchange.

I'm hoping that meant Exit 286, as that one IMO should be ORT.

So they're just going to have traffic go slowly through the existing barriers at many spots?  Wow, they're REALLY cheaping out on this!

Many of the exits west of Carlisle and east of Pittsburgh have other ramp constraints where I'm not sure if there is an immediate advantage to getting rid of the booths.  I am surprised that the Harrisburg exits will retain them, though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 10, 2018, 01:50:48 PM
There's also other such locations, like the Mon-Fayette.  While some of it has ORT, some of it doesn't.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 10, 2018, 01:57:05 PM
^  Thanks.  This is the first I have seen of this schedule.

One note on the timeline . . . is there a future Exit 289 EZPass exit to be constructed (see October 2022 target), or should it say 298?  Does not seem like much out there for such an interchange.

I'm hoping that meant Exit 286, as that one IMO should be ORT.
Unless there is a future interchange in the pipeline we're not aware of; one would have to assume that the listing was supposed to be Exit 286 (US 222/PA 272).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on October 10, 2018, 03:41:32 PM
^  Thanks.  This is the first I have seen of this schedule.

One note on the timeline . . . is there a future Exit 289 EZPass exit to be constructed (see October 2022 target), or should it say 298?  Does not seem like much out there for such an interchange.

I'm hoping that meant Exit 286, as that one IMO should be ORT.
Unless there is a future interchange in the pipeline we're not aware of; one would have to assume that the listing was supposed to be Exit 286 (US 222/PA 272).

If the eastern section won't use tickets, they'll have to build a new mainline toll plaza, right? It would get an "exit" number just like Warrendale and Neshaminy Falls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 10, 2018, 03:51:13 PM
If the eastern section won't use tickets, they'll have to build a new mainline toll plaza, right? It would get an "exit" number just like Warrendale and Neshaminy Falls.

It looks like the both sections will go AET at the same time (Oct 2022), the difference is in some places the existing plazas will stay, whereas the eastern portion will transition to ORT - no tickets either side.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on October 10, 2018, 04:09:23 PM
^  Thanks.  This is the first I have seen of this schedule.

One note on the timeline . . . is there a future Exit 289 EZPass exit to be constructed (see October 2022 target), or should it say 298?  Does not seem like much out there for such an interchange.

I'm hoping that meant Exit 286, as that one IMO should be ORT.
Unless there is a future interchange in the pipeline we're not aware of; one would have to assume that the listing was supposed to be Exit 286 (US 222/PA 272).

If the eastern section won't use tickets, they'll have to build a new mainline toll plaza, right? It would get an "exit" number just like Warrendale and Neshaminy Falls.

I was thinking that the ramps east of Exit 286 would be converted to gantry points at the same place as the current booths, but that wouldn't work with calculating tolls for non-EZPass users, would it?  Would the software track entry and exit points for every license plate?

So maybe the plan is to build a new mainline toll plaza around MP 289?  Pure speculation on my part...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on October 10, 2018, 04:25:21 PM
I was thinking that the ramps east of Exit 286 would be converted to gantry points at the same place as the current booths, but that wouldn't work with calculating tolls for non-EZPass users, would it?  Would the software track entry and exit points for every license plate?

So maybe the plan is to build a new mainline toll plaza around MP 289?  Pure speculation on my part...

Read the previous post:

It looks like the both sections will go AET at the same time (Oct 2022), the difference is in some places the existing plazas will stay, whereas the eastern portion will transition to ORT - no tickets either side.

Seems it'll be happening at the same time. 286 or 298 will be the end of the cheaped-out section (toll plazas remaining but all-electronic).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on October 10, 2018, 07:26:33 PM

I was thinking that the ramps east of Exit 286 would be converted to gantry points at the same place as the current booths, but that wouldn't work with calculating tolls for non-EZPass users, would it?  Would the software track entry and exit points for every license plate?

So maybe the plan is to build a new mainline toll plaza around MP 289?  Pure speculation on my part...

Effectively, a new ORT gantry at that position would be the equivalent. If someone enters at Harrisburg-East, and drives to Valley Forge, they will go through the toll plaza on entry, then pass whatever ORT gantries are erected.

It will be interesting to see if any free-travel zones are created in the ORT section. Or additional "slip ramp" interchanges, (City of) Norristown comes immediately to mind.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 11, 2018, 08:37:05 AM
It will be interesting to see if any free-travel zones are created in the ORT section. Or additional "slip ramp" interchanges, (City of) Norristown comes immediately to mind.
Personally, I would like to see such happen along the I-276 stretch.  At present, many locals avoid using it (for travel between one or two interchanges) due to the high tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 11, 2018, 09:10:59 AM
It will be interesting to see if any free-travel zones are created in the ORT section. Or additional "slip ramp" interchanges, (City of) Norristown comes immediately to mind.
Personally, I would like to see such happen along the I-276 stretch.  At present, many locals avoid using it (for travel between one or two interchanges) due to the high tolls.

I wonder if this is intentional to keep locals from using the toll road for such a short stretch, which would inevitably invite congestion onto the highway and the interchanges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 11, 2018, 09:31:00 AM
^  Thanks.  This is the first I have seen of this schedule.

One note on the timeline . . . is there a future Exit 289 EZPass exit to be constructed (see October 2022 target), or should it say 298?  Does not seem like much out there for such an interchange.

The other odd one is they are not converting the Mon-Fayette until 2022, while all the other extension roads will be AET by next year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on October 11, 2018, 09:31:57 AM
Personally, I would like to see such happen along the I-276 stretch.  At present, many locals avoid using it (for travel between one or two interchanges) due to the high tolls.
I wonder if this is intentional to keep locals from using the toll road for such a short stretch, which would inevitably invite congestion onto the highway and the interchanges.

Local travel has always been ineffective due to the wide interchange spacing.  It was built with six interchanges in 40 miles (include the section to Lionville).  Two have been added, PA-29 and the I-95 thru quadrant.  They still have a ways to go before they will have a more adequate interchange spacing.  Adding the Norristown interchange will help.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on October 11, 2018, 11:26:12 AM
It will be interesting to see if any free-travel zones are created in the ORT section. Or additional "slip ramp" interchanges, (City of) Norristown comes immediately to mind.
Personally, I would like to see such happen along the I-276 stretch.  At present, many locals avoid using it (for travel between one or two interchanges) due to the high tolls.

I wonder if this is intentional to keep locals from using the toll road for such a short stretch, which would inevitably invite congestion onto the highway and the interchanges.
The thing is, one of the reasons why much of it was widened (to six lanes) during the 1980s was to somewhat compensate for the absence of the 10-Mile Loop Expressway.  Such would've acted in the same manner that I-295 in South Jersey does with respect to the NJ Turnpike.  That Expressway was originally planned to be built & completed circa 1985 but was dropped from any further planning circa 1977.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on October 11, 2018, 03:25:09 PM
The thing is, one of the reasons why much of it was widened (to six lanes) during the 1980s was to somewhat compensate for the absence of the 10-Mile Loop Expressway.  Such would've acted in the same manner that I-295 in South Jersey does with respect to the NJ Turnpike.  That Expressway was originally planned to be built & completed circa 1985 but was dropped from any further planning circa 1977.

The segment between I-476 and PA-309 has grown to beyond 100,000 AADT, and as such has warrants for eight lane (4 each way) widening.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on October 11, 2018, 03:53:11 PM
The thing is, one of the reasons why much of it was widened (to six lanes) during the 1980s was to somewhat compensate for the absence of the 10-Mile Loop Expressway.  Such would've acted in the same manner that I-295 in South Jersey does with respect to the NJ Turnpike.  That Expressway was originally planned to be built & completed circa 1985 but was dropped from any further planning circa 1977.

The segment between I-476 and PA-309 has grown to beyond 100,000 AADT, and as such has warrants for eight lane (4 each way) widening.

Honestly it should be eight lanes at least between Mid-County and Bensalem, perhaps west to Valley Forge (though I doubt they'd be quick to widen it again so soon). It's about time to give it a full-depth reconstruction, too, since the original widening kept the original concrete of the four inner lanes.

Adding more exits may push it further.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on October 12, 2018, 07:02:00 PM
Does the PTC plan to remove the toll plazas from the newly-AET sections at some point?

Since tolls are no longer being collected at 576's exits, I would assume they will come down.  The ones for 376 will probably have the canopies removed and replaced with gantries for the tag readers and cameras.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on October 12, 2018, 11:57:45 PM
Does the PTC plan to remove the toll plazas from the newly-AET sections at some point?

Since tolls are no longer being collected at 576's exits, I would assume they will come down.  The ones for 376 will probably have the canopies removed and replaced with gantries for the tag readers and cameras.

They haven't removed the plazas on 576 yet? I know they intended to since they put in that mainline gantry in the middle of it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 19, 2018, 09:17:02 PM
So they're just going to have traffic go slowly through the existing barriers at many spots?  Wow, they're REALLY cheaping out on this!

According to the latest electronic tolling RFP, open road tolling would be targeted for 2024 west of Lancaster.  You can see the approximate tolling point locations on page 229 of the PDF.

https://www.paturnpike.com/OUTPUT/PDFs/RFPs/101001.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 19, 2018, 11:13:55 PM
So the "use existing barriers" thing is temporary then.  That makes sense.  The ticket system is certainly a lot of work to convert.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on November 10, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I was just in a trip today going eastbound on the Turnpike approaching the Willow Grove interchange. For some reason, they put up a new diagrammatic sign for the two-lane exit. (It's not an option lane split.) What's really special about it, though, is that in addition to the I-276 shield on the pull-through side, it had a PA Turnpike shield. This is common practice on the NTJP now, but I've never seen this done on the Turnpike mainline before. BGSes for ramps leading to the toll plazas will have Turnpike shields, but once in the system, it's only signed as its Interstate designations.

I don't know exactly when this was put up, but it wasn't there the day the Turnpike-95 flyovers opened when my dad and I went over to drive them. The sign was entirely Highway Gothic, which makes it very likely that the PTC has not switched back to Clearview. (PennDOT I'm not so sure.)

Unfortunately I didn't get a picture since I wasn't expecting it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on November 11, 2018, 07:51:08 AM
I don't know exactly when this was put up, but it wasn't there the day the Turnpike-95 flyovers opened when my dad and I went over to drive them. The sign was entirely Highway Gothic, which makes it very likely that the PTC has not switched back to Clearview. (PennDOT I'm not so sure.)
"Has not switched back to Clearview"...what do you mean?  I thought Clearview was now officially deemed unacceptable?  And I thought PennDOT has now switched back to Highway Gothic too?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on November 11, 2018, 08:32:07 AM
I don't know exactly when this was put up, but it wasn't there the day the Turnpike-95 flyovers opened when my dad and I went over to drive them. The sign was entirely Highway Gothic, which makes it very likely that the PTC has not switched back to Clearview. (PennDOT I'm not so sure.)
"Has not switched back to Clearview"...what do you mean?  I thought Clearview was now officially deemed unacceptable?  And I thought PennDOT has now switched back to Highway Gothic too?

"Did you ever have to make up your mind
And pick up on one and leave the other behind?"

Make up *your* mind, highway officials!

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on November 11, 2018, 09:08:29 AM
I don't know exactly when this was put up, but it wasn't there the day the Turnpike-95 flyovers opened when my dad and I went over to drive them. The sign was entirely Highway Gothic, which makes it very likely that the PTC has not switched back to Clearview. (PennDOT I'm not so sure.)
"Has not switched back to Clearview"...what do you mean?  I thought Clearview was now officially deemed unacceptable?  And I thought PennDOT has now switched back to Highway Gothic too?

"Did you ever have to make up your mind
And pick up on one and leave the other behind?"

Make up *your* mind, highway officials!

ixnay

Wasn't it Congress that reinstated approval in a bill or something?

As before, it's up to the states to use it or not. Hopefully PennDOT and/or the PTC realize that maybe there's a reason the FHWA would yank approval.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on November 11, 2018, 11:52:23 AM
I don't know exactly when this was put up, but it wasn't there the day the Turnpike-95 flyovers opened when my dad and I went over to drive them. The sign was entirely Highway Gothic, which makes it very likely that the PTC has not switched back to Clearview. (PennDOT I'm not so sure.)
"Has not switched back to Clearview"...what do you mean?  I thought Clearview was now officially deemed unacceptable?  And I thought PennDOT has now switched back to Highway Gothic too?

"Did you ever have to make up your mind
And pick up on one and leave the other behind?"

Make up *your* mind, highway officials!

ixnay

Wasn't it Congress that reinstated approval in a bill or something?

As before, it's up to the states to use it or not. Hopefully PennDOT and/or the PTC realize that maybe there's a reason the FHWA would yank approval.
Well I found something that did pass the US House (Title I, Section 125)... https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3354?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22h+res+555%22%5D%7D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on November 11, 2018, 12:47:59 PM
Just to summarize–this isn't a matter of the FHWA or any DOT being indecisive.

After over a decade of review, FHWA decided to rescind its interim approval of Clearview–and by doing, in effect mandating that state DOTs revert back to using standard FHWA sign alphabets.

A group of legislators representing Texas ramrodded through a line item in a kitchen sink appropriations bill forcing FHWA to allow Clearview once again.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on November 12, 2018, 09:50:08 AM
Just to summarize–this isn't a matter of the FHWA or any DOT being indecisive.

After over a decade of review, FHWA decided to rescind its interim approval of Clearview–and by doing, in effect mandating that state DOTs revert back to using standard FHWA sign alphabets.

A group of legislators representing Texas ramrodded through a line item in a kitchen sink appropriations bill forcing FHWA to allow Clearview once again.
And since that happened; three state DOT agencies (KY, TX & VA) have presently since reintroduced usage of the Clearview font per the original IA.

In PA, aside from some already-fabricated signs being recently erected, Clearview seemed all but dead until a couple of new ramp signs for I-95 northbound in Northeast Philadelphia that featured New York lettering in Clearview started appearing about a month ago.  In contrast, other related-new signs and/or mods (New York legends placed over Trenton legends) in the area featured such in Highway Gothic.

Time will tell whether or not those newer Clearview installs were just isolated instances; but that's for another existing thread topic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on December 01, 2018, 02:23:44 AM
I had a look at the AET plan for the turnpike; they could do "in-place" AET at all four toll plazas with Express EZ-Pass on the ticketed parts (Gateway, Warrendale, Mid-County, Neshaminy Falls) and the two on the Mon-Fayette Expressway that have it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on January 11, 2019, 11:36:01 PM
According to the Turnpike's 2019 toll schedule and No Cash Zone website, the Fort Littleton and Blue Mountain interchanges have joined Willow Hill as being unattended. If you don't have E-ZPass, it's toll-by-plate and you get a bill in the mail.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 15, 2019, 08:20:36 PM
According to the Turnpike's 2019 toll schedule and No Cash Zone website, the Fort Littleton and Blue Mountain interchanges have joined Willow Hill as being unattended. If you don't have E-ZPass, it's toll-by-plate and you get a bill in the mail.

Not surprised - they had talked about putting in unattended toll booths a few years ago but never followed through.  I guess AET changed that plan.

EDIT: Here's the press release on the change

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190111130354.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on January 18, 2019, 08:29:17 PM
I'm kind of surprised PTC is requiring users to manually scan their toll tickets. All of the interchanges I can think of have license plate cameras on both exit and entrance. It seems like it would be easier to just match up entrance and exit transactions than to have special equipment to scan tickets.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 18, 2019, 08:35:15 PM
Well, if they didn't, people would be able to take those toll tickets and use them on other trips where they enter from a different interchange.  Though it does strike me as odd to spend money on ticket scanners and automatic collection based on tickets when it will be switching to true AET soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on January 18, 2019, 09:55:18 PM
Well, if they didn't, people would be able to take those toll tickets and use them on other trips where they enter from a different interchange.  Though it does strike me as odd to spend money on ticket scanners and automatic collection based on tickets when it will be switching to true AET soon.
Aren't the tickets time stamped?  I doubt PTC would believe someone entering on January 15 at 12pm would be exiting on January 16 at 2pm.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 18, 2019, 10:05:58 PM
Well, if they didn't, people would be able to take those toll tickets and use them on other trips where they enter from a different interchange.  Though it does strike me as odd to spend money on ticket scanners and automatic collection based on tickets when it will be switching to true AET soon.
Aren't the tickets time stamped?  I doubt PTC would believe someone entering on January 15 at 12pm would be exiting on January 16 at 2pm.
They are dated and time-stamped.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 19, 2019, 12:11:18 PM
Well, if they didn't, people would be able to take those toll tickets and use them on other trips where they enter from a different interchange.  Though it does strike me as odd to spend money on ticket scanners and automatic collection based on tickets when it will be switching to true AET soon.
Aren't the tickets time stamped?  I doubt PTC would believe someone entering on January 15 at 12pm would be exiting on January 16 at 2pm.
They are dated and time-stamped.

SM-G965U



And isn’t there a time limit to exit the turnpike? Maybe that’s another state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on January 19, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Yes, there is: The PTC refers to the time limit as the “Max Time Formula” , and being in possession of a toll ticket whose age exceeds the Max Time Formula is considered to be a violation of Pennsylvania Code 601.13  - Evasion of fare:

Quote from: Pennsylvania Code 601.13
(2) The presentation to a State Trooper or toll collector of a toll ticket which indicates that the patron has exceeded the travel time allotted based on the max-time formula, where the patron cannot produce satisfactory physical evidence, including the driver’s record of duty status, demonstrating that the age of the ticket was the result of actual excess time spent legitimately on the Turnpike system by the patron and was not the result of fare evasion or attempted fare evasion.

Also violations under that law are possession of multiple tickets and possession of a ticket issued from an interchange the motorist is heading toward–among other items.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 21, 2019, 08:32:42 PM
On the NJ Turnpike, while they were time stamped there was nothing encoded that informed us the ticket was older than 24 hours. It just processed the toll as normal.

Not sure if PA's system is different.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CtrlAltDel on January 21, 2019, 11:10:11 PM
Yes, there is: The PTC refers to the time limit as the “Max Time Formula” , and being in possession of a toll ticket whose age exceeds the Max Time Formula is considered to be a violation of Pennsylvania Code 601.13  - Evasion of fare:

I've seen many references to it, but I've never seen the actual formula. Does anyone know what it might be?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on January 22, 2019, 06:47:45 AM
Yes, there is: The PTC refers to the time limit as the “Max Time Formula” , and being in possession of a toll ticket whose age exceeds the Max Time Formula is considered to be a violation of Pennsylvania Code 601.13  - Evasion of fare:

I've seen many references to it, but I've never seen the actual formula. Does anyone know what it might be?

That's my question, too.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 22, 2019, 07:56:11 AM
Yes, there is: The PTC refers to the time limit as the “Max Time Formula” , and being in possession of a toll ticket whose age exceeds the Max Time Formula is considered to be a violation of Pennsylvania Code 601.13  - Evasion of fare:

I've seen many references to it, but I've never seen the actual formula. Does anyone know what it might be?

That's my question, too.

ixnay

Briantroutman literally informed you of the formula 3 posts up.

Yes, there is: The PTC refers to the time limit as the “Max Time Formula” , and being in possession of a toll ticket whose age exceeds the Max Time Formula is considered to be a violation of Pennsylvania Code 601.13  - Evasion of fare:

Quote from: Pennsylvania Code 601.13
(2) The presentation to a State Trooper or toll collector of a toll ticket which indicates that the patron has exceeded the travel time allotted based on the max-time formula, where the patron cannot produce satisfactory physical evidence, including the driver’s record of duty status, demonstrating that the age of the ticket was the result of actual excess time spent legitimately on the Turnpike system by the patron and was not the result of fare evasion or attempted fare evasion.


It's not a mathematical calculation per se.  It's a reasonableness formula.  If you're travelling from Harrisburg to Philly on a nice day with little traffic, and your ticket says you got on Sunday at 7am and it's now Sunday at 7pm, you need to have a good reason why it took you 12 hours to go that distance.  If you had a mechanical breakdown and needed a tow and car repair, that stuff will be well documented.  If you want to claim you were in a service plaza eating the meal of your life, hopefully you have a receipt for that.  If you were in a service plaza taking the dump of your life, well, hopefully the state troopers will take your word for that.

But in reality, they're looking for someone who presents a toll ticket from another day, or an impossible location.  If you're ticket shows you got on in Harrisburg, yet you're on the Turnpike in Breezewood heading east to Philly, it's fairly obvious you're intending on using that toll ticket to pay a fare lower than what you should be paying.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: VTGoose on January 22, 2019, 08:27:09 AM
But in reality, they're looking for someone who presents a toll ticket from another day, or an impossible location.  If you're ticket shows you got on in Harrisburg, yet you're on the Turnpike in Breezewood heading east to Philly, it's fairly obvious you're intending on using that toll ticket to pay a fare lower than what you should be paying.

You could also be directionally challenged and went west from Harrisburg, then made an illegal U-turn somewhere around Irwin to get back on the right track. :-)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 22, 2019, 08:35:17 AM

You could also be directionally challenged and went west from Harrisburg, then made an illegal U-turn somewhere around Irwin to get back on the right track. :-)

Or just enter the eastbound lanes at Sideling Hill instead of the westbound lanes.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 22, 2019, 09:12:06 AM

You could also be directionally challenged and went west from Harrisburg, then made an illegal U-turn somewhere around Irwin to get back on the right track. :-)

Or just enter the eastbound lanes at Sideling Hill instead of the westbound lanes.

SM-G965U



Which is an illegal maneuver because it requires one to go thru a maintenance access gate.

So either way, you're screwed!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 22, 2019, 10:11:48 AM
At that point one might as well just go the few extra miles to Exit 161 and turn around legally.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 22, 2019, 01:04:54 PM
Would they even have a way of knowing if you went the wrong direction?  The exits are trumpet interchanges with a single toll plaza, so unless you get off at the same exit you got your ticket from, there's no way to know.  I'm pretty sure state troopers aren't randomly pulling people over or running checkpoints to look at people's toll tickets.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 22, 2019, 01:26:55 PM
Would they even have a way of knowing if you went the wrong direction?  The exits are trumpet interchanges with a single toll plaza, so unless you get off at the same exit you got your ticket from, there's no way to know.  I'm pretty sure state troopers aren't randomly pulling people over or running checkpoints to look at people's toll tickets.

Unless a Trooper was at an interchange watching, they wouldn't know.  Of course, a driver intending on making a U-turn wouldn't know if there's no cop at the interchange until they're already there, so if there was a cop around, the driver would either risk the ticket, or just pay the toll. 

I had one person one day try ratting someone out doing this, saying while she was in line to pay the toll the car in front of her made an illegal U-turn.  I'm not sure what she wanted me to do about it - I didn't see it, she had no description of the vehicle, and neither of us knew what direction they went after the U-turn.  Yet she seemed irritated I wouldn't call it in!  I've seen numerous u-turns made, but our job wasn't to worry about minor stuff like that. 

In fact, there were plenty of times when someone came thru my lane saying they were getting off the incorrect interchange.  We told them to pay the toll, then just make the "illegal" U-turn thru the cones and re-enter the Turnpike (I would only do this when there wasn't much traffic in the plaza).  I also had to get in the habit of telling them to make sure they got another toll ticket, because invariably these people figured they already paid a toll so now it's perfectly fine to go thru the EZ Pass lane (they, no doubt, argued about that when they exited the Turnpike at their proper interchange).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on January 22, 2019, 02:24:39 PM
Would they even have a way of knowing if you went the wrong direction?

You’re right in that state troopers aren’t pulling people over, but there is a definite way to know that a motorist is going the wrong direction. In short, you can’t be headed toward the interchange from which your toll ticket was issued. Since there are no means of making a legal U-turn within the closed ticket system, you must always be headed away from your point of origin.

My sense is that all of the laws about fare evasion give the PTC and PASP a number of means, not only to fight motorists’ attempts at evading tolls, but also to keep vagrants off the Turnpike. Not that they’re actively patrolling for fare evaders, but in my admittedly limited experience, law enforcement officers appreciate having as many tools at their disposal as possible.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 22, 2019, 02:34:18 PM
Would they even have a way of knowing if you went the wrong direction?

You’re right in that state troopers aren’t pulling people over, but there is a definite way to know that a motorist is going the wrong direction. In short, you can’t be headed toward the interchange from which your toll ticket was issued. Since there are no means of making a legal U-turn within the closed ticket system, you must always be headed away from your point of origin.

My sense is that all of the laws about fare evasion give the PTC and PASP a number of means, not only to fight motorists’ attempts at evading tolls, but also to keep vagrants off the Turnpike. Not that they’re actively patrolling for fare evaders, but in my admittedly limited experience, law enforcement officers appreciate having as many tools at their disposal as possible.

Yeah, this would only come into play if there's some sort of crime committed, accident, etc.  A cop pulling someone over for a normal speeding violation isn't going to ask or care about the toll ticket.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 22, 2019, 02:48:52 PM
Would they even have a way of knowing if you went the wrong direction?

You’re right in that state troopers aren’t pulling people over, but there is a definite way to know that a motorist is going the wrong direction. In short, you can’t be headed toward the interchange from which your toll ticket was issued. Since there are no means of making a legal U-turn within the closed ticket system, you must always be headed away from your point of origin.

My sense is that all of the laws about fare evasion give the PTC and PASP a number of means, not only to fight motorists’ attempts at evading tolls, but also to keep vagrants off the Turnpike. Not that they’re actively patrolling for fare evaders, but in my admittedly limited experience, law enforcement officers appreciate having as many tools at their disposal as possible.
"They" in this case is the toll collector, since of course the police aren't going to be quizzing you on your toll ticket in normal circumstances.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CtrlAltDel on January 22, 2019, 04:42:17 PM
It's not a mathematical calculation per se.  It's a reasonableness formula.

I guess that makes sense. But you'd think, with "formula" right in the name, there would be something more precise than just reasonableness.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DrSmith on January 22, 2019, 08:39:34 PM
I remember working on the NJTP years back and getting a huge number of same interchange tickets. Everyone was saying something about an accident at Burlington-Mt Holly toll plaza and the cops were turning people around and putting them back on the TP before they could go through the toll plaza and exit. So some people came back to where they had originally entered. Most were annoyed to pay the $4 or whatever it was. I had to show a charge for the vehicle in the system and so it was complain but pay.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 22, 2019, 10:21:51 PM
I remember working on the NJTP years back and getting a huge number of same interchange tickets. Everyone was saying something about an accident at Burlington-Mt Holly toll plaza and the cops were turning people around and putting them back on the TP before they could go through the toll plaza and exit. So some people came back to where they had originally entered. Most were annoyed to pay the $4 or whatever it was. I had to show a charge for the vehicle in the system and so it was complain but pay.

Yeah, I always applied a reasonableness standard in that case. I would've probably just recharged the ticket for the distance between the two interchanges.  I did that sometimes based on the circumstances.  I figured as long as I wrote it up and documented it I was fine (they never said anything whenever I did that).  Even to this day, the only time I regretted doing something like that was when someone had mapquest directions that managed to lead them onto the NJ Turnpike behind a service plaza.  By rights, without the toll ticket, I should've charged the max toll, and told them if they want to take it up with anyone, it's mapquests's fault.  I just charged them the minimum toll and let them roll. In hindsight I should've charged them the max just because they shouldn't have driven onto the Turnpike the way they did.  But again, no one ever said anything, so it's a wonder I even think about it 15 years after the fact! Haha
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on January 22, 2019, 11:24:39 PM
The longest I can see someone reasonably being on the Turnpike system is around 2 days. You pull into a service area with a problem, they say they can get the part but it'll take some time. You get some food, pass the time, sleep, wake up, they fix the car, another nap, and you're finally on your way. I would imagine that we're not talking about tickets a day or two old even, in these cases, but just random tickets from who knows how long ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on February 09, 2019, 05:48:03 PM
What is the projected north terminus of PA 43 at I-376? If it's not on the original alignment by the Squirrel Hill Tunnel, then it must be further east towards Monroeville?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 09, 2019, 05:52:25 PM
It is to tie in to the east of the PA 791/Rodi Road interchange.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on February 09, 2019, 10:20:14 PM
Gotcha. It's hard to envision a route through that area, with it being so built up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on February 10, 2019, 01:30:01 AM
It is to tie in to the east of the PA 791/Rodi Road interchange.

I thought it was coming into the PA 8 interchange. Is that dead?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on February 10, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
It is to tie in to the east of the PA 791/Rodi Road interchange.

I thought it was coming into the PA 8 interchange. Is that dead?

Jeff could answer with more certainty for early alternatives, but every map I've seen of it has had the eastern branch end east of PA 791 and north of the Monroeville Mall. The western branch would have ended just east of the PA 885 exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on February 10, 2019, 08:59:54 AM
It follows the railroad valley through Monroeville, has several iterations of US 22 biz interchanges.  I think the current one is converting the MM entrance trumpet into a tight cloverleaf and having the resultant road North tie into PA 43.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 10, 2019, 09:04:58 AM
It is to tie in to the east of the PA 791/Rodi Road interchange.

I thought it was coming into the PA 8 interchange. Is that dead?

All of the maps I have ever seen had the interchange, for what was the Monroeville leg, placed on 376 at the border of Penn Hills and Monroeville:  https://www.patpconstruction.com/monfaysb/pdf/MeetingBoards/MappingBoardE_Aug2016.pdf.

The only expressway that was supposed to connect at Ardmore Boulevard was the cancelled Route 30 Relocation (http://pittsburgh.pahighways.com/expressways/cancelled/r30relocation.html).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on February 10, 2019, 07:04:32 PM
Looking at the link Jeff sent and going back on the main site, I now see the alignment - and it wasn't what I had envisioned. It doesn't appear to take away too many properties.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on February 26, 2019, 09:10:57 AM
Below is cross-posted from the SEPTA and other Philadelphia area transit thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18260.msg2397412#msg2397412) in the Mass Transit section, courtesy of Jeffandnicole.  I thought it might be worth sharing here since such is tied to the PA Turnpike; particularly as it relates to Acts 44 & 89.

https://www.philly.com/transportation/septa-projects-halted-pennsylvania-turnpike-suit-truckers-penndot-20190225.html
Quote
SEPTA officials put almost 40 improvement projects on hold this month as it awaits the outcome of a lawsuit that could slash a third of its capital budget by this summer.

Construction that is underway is continuing, but design work on 21 projects has stopped.

Quote
In March, a truckers’ trade association and a drivers’ advocacy group filed a federal lawsuit arguing that turnpike tolls are at least 200 percent more expensive than they should be. The suit also contends that using toll revenue to fund transit violates the U.S. Constitution’s commerce clause, which regulates interstate commerce. It claims that toll money should go only toward maintaining the turnpike system and that Pennsylvania was wrong to allocate toll revenue for transit with laws passed in 2007 and 2013. The high tolls interfere with interstate trade, the suit argues.
Are the proverbial chickens coming to roost?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jcn on February 27, 2019, 03:38:38 PM
I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but which service plaza on the turnpike would you say is the most popular?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ilpt4u on February 27, 2019, 09:14:44 PM
I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but which service plaza on the turnpike would you say is the most popular?
Breezewood.../sarcasm

I couldn't resist
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2019, 11:21:19 PM
I'm quite sure I just heard a first on the drive home tonight on WMMR: A Pennsylvania Turnpike commercial informing people, in case of vehicle issues, to dial *11 and look for and utilize the green milepost signs to tell the dispatcher their location!  I've never heard milepost signs actually used in such a far-reaching PSA before!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on March 09, 2019, 01:53:48 PM
I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but which service plaza on the turnpike would you say is the most popular?

I seem to recall during the renovations that Allentown was listed as the busiest. At least the construction company that did the work claims so. 

https://www.highconstruction.com/experience/retail/pennsylvania-turnpike-service-plaza---allentown/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 09, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
I'm quite sure I just heard a first on the drive home tonight on WMMR: A Pennsylvania Turnpike commercial informing people, in case of vehicle issues, to dial *11 and look for and utilize the green milepost signs to tell the dispatcher their location!  I've never heard milepost signs actually used in such a far-reaching PSA before!

I heard a similar PSA (perhaps the same one) on KYW a few days ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wilbur_the_goose on March 14, 2019, 04:31:25 PM
MIDDLETOWN, Pa. –
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is facing an $11 billion debt load and a lawsuit.

Mark Compton, CEO of the Turnpike, said a law passed by the state Legislative more than a decade ago is to blame for part of the debt. The law requires the Turnpike to use toll money to pay PennDOT $450 million per year for highway, bridge and mass transit projects.


https://www.wgal.com/article/pa-turnpike-facing-dollar11-billion-debt-lawsuit/26722047
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2019, 04:43:27 PM
MIDDLETOWN, Pa. –
The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is facing an $11 billion debt load and a lawsuit.

Mark Compton, CEO of the Turnpike, said a law passed by the state Legislative more than a decade ago is to blame for part of the debt. The law requires the Turnpike to use toll money to pay PennDOT $450 million per year for highway, bridge and mass transit projects.


https://www.wgal.com/article/pa-turnpike-facing-dollar11-billion-debt-lawsuit/26722047

Just wondering...from a legal standpoint, is the Turnpike actually the correct party to sue? After all, they're obeying the law. Wouldn't the State be the correct party to sue?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 14, 2019, 08:50:51 PM
What are the current odds that the PA assembly will extend the 2022 cutoff?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on March 15, 2019, 08:23:44 PM
I've been digging through some of my photos from a few years ago and found a bunch of photos I took of the PA Turnpike exhibit at the State Museum of PA in Harrisburg.  A while back I posted a photo of the PA Turnpike status board, which I think is now gone because my old image host decided to disable hotlinking, so I'm reposting it here.

(https://i.ibb.co/Mkkg4VW/IMG-20170329-113037587.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTTKsz1)

They also had a picture of an old "Exits" sign.

(https://i.ibb.co/Jq8Qw7M/IMG-20170329-113617715-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DYmpHCS)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 15, 2019, 08:47:36 PM
^ I was at the State Museum last weekend–the PHMC was hosting special events for the 338th anniversary of the chartering of Pennsylvania. I hadn’t been to the State Museum in about a decade, and I was surprised at the size of the current Turnpike exhibit–which was to the best of my recollection almost nonexistent ten years ago.

In addition to the system status board shown above, the exhibit also includes an original, gleaming blue 1940 toll booth complete with a 1940 Packard in the lane and uniformed PTC agent handing over a ticket with a smile, a roughly ’70s/’80s-era ticket dispenser, a collection of old toll tickets, a call box, a scale model of a Sideling Hill tunnel portal, and lots of other artifacts, documents, and photographs.

And the collection includes what I presume is an (perhaps the?) original YOU Slow Down sign with a stern finger pointing directly at you.

I was pressed for time and didn’t get to take any photos, but I’d like to go back again soon for a better look.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 17, 2019, 08:04:33 AM
They also had a picture of an old "Exits" sign.

(https://i.ibb.co/Jq8Qw7M/IMG-20170329-113617715-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DYmpHCS)

Notice the shield for U.S. (now PA) 230.  The PATP may have been the first superhighway to use route shields on exit signs.  Were route shields used on the Middlesex to Irwin segment in 1940?  When did the PTC switch to green exit signs?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on March 17, 2019, 08:45:16 AM
They also had a picture of an old "Exits" sign.

(https://i.ibb.co/Jq8Qw7M/IMG-20170329-113617715-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DYmpHCS)

Notice the shield for U.S. (now PA) 230.  The PATP may have been the first superhighway to use route shields on exit signs.  Were route shields used on the Middlesex to Irwin segment in 1940?  When did the PTC switch to green exit signs?

ixnay

Something I'm curious about is whether PA's seemingly unique former practice of centered exit tabs came first from the Turnpike as seen in this photo.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 17, 2019, 09:02:53 AM
They also had a picture of an old "Exits" sign.

(https://i.ibb.co/Jq8Qw7M/IMG-20170329-113617715-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DYmpHCS)

Notice the shield for U.S. (now PA) 230.  The PATP may have been the first superhighway to use route shields on exit signs.  Were route shields used on the Middlesex to Irwin segment in 1940?  When did the PTC switch to green exit signs?

ixnay

Something I'm curious about is whether PA's seemingly unique former practice of centered exit tabs came first from the Turnpike as seen in this photo.
Hardly unique. Maaaaany other states did that early on.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on March 17, 2019, 09:16:06 AM
They also had a picture of an old "Exits" sign.
(photo)

Notice the shield for U.S. (now PA) 230.  The PATP may have been the first superhighway to use route shields on exit signs.  Were route shields used on the Middlesex to Irwin segment in 1940?  When did the PTC switch to green exit signs?

ixnay

Something I'm curious about is whether PA's seemingly unique former practice of centered exit tabs came first from the Turnpike as seen in this photo.
Hardly unique. Maaaaany other states did that early on.
Connecticut did it for many, many years until recently.

(https://i.ibb.co/R0dc5dt/Route-84-Exit-19-and-20.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bBDXfDY)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on March 17, 2019, 09:18:15 AM
They also had a picture of an old "Exits" sign.

(https://i.ibb.co/Jq8Qw7M/IMG-20170329-113617715-HDR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DYmpHCS)

Notice the shield for U.S. (now PA) 230.  The PATP may have been the first superhighway to use route shields on exit signs.  Were route shields used on the Middlesex to Irwin segment in 1940?  When did the PTC switch to green exit signs?

ixnay

Something I'm curious about is whether PA's seemingly unique former practice of centered exit tabs came first from the Turnpike as seen in this photo.
Hardly unique. Maaaaany other states did that early on.

Oh, I thought that was mostly a PA thing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 18, 2019, 09:12:26 AM
^^Center-justified exit tabs used to be SOP under the MUTCD.
Example of a 1977-era MassDPW-spec'd BGS along I-95 southbound just north of the RI border (such are still there today)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5585/14839475037_4f15c1c6ac.jpg)
Photo by RaymondYu (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/raymondyue/14839475037/)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 21, 2019, 01:11:57 PM
Philly Inquirer article: Pa. Auditor: Legislature should end or cut $450 million Turnpike Commission transit payment to PennDot

https://www.philly.com/news/pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-eugene-depasquale-tolls-debt-20190321.html

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on March 21, 2019, 04:58:34 PM
Philly Inquirer article: Pa. Auditor: Legislature should end or cut $450 million Turnpike Commission transit payment to PennDot

https://www.philly.com/news/pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-eugene-depasquale-tolls-debt-20190321.html


Interesting that the photo in the article is of a New Jersey Turnpike toll plaza and signing . . .
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on March 21, 2019, 05:15:52 PM
Philly Inquirer article: Pa. Auditor: Legislature should end or cut $450 million Turnpike Commission transit payment to PennDot
https://www.philly.com/news/pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-eugene-depasquale-tolls-debt-20190321.html
Interesting that the photo in the article is of a New Jersey Turnpike toll plaza and signing . . .
At least one of the comments/commenters below the linked-article stated the same thing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on March 21, 2019, 05:41:52 PM
The entire press conference can be viewed at https://www.pscp.tv/w/1gqGvnQpakOGB (https://www.pscp.tv/w/1gqGvnQpakOGB).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 21, 2019, 08:14:22 PM
Philly Inquirer article: Pa. Auditor: Legislature should end or cut $450 million Turnpike Commission transit payment to PennDot

https://www.philly.com/news/pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-eugene-depasquale-tolls-debt-20190321.html


They're right, you know.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on March 23, 2019, 07:01:03 PM
Changing subjects, to the ongoing route 283 reconstruction around the PATP, does anybody know if Penndot is lengthening the PA 283 bridges over the Turnpike to allow for the (far) future widening eastward from the new Swatara Creek bridge?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 24, 2019, 05:29:50 PM
Changing subjects, to the ongoing route 283 reconstruction around the PATP, does anybody know if Penndot is lengthening the PA 283 bridges over the Turnpike to allow for the (far) future widening eastward from the new Swatara Creek bridge?

It didn't look like they did anything more than rehabilitate the bridge when I drove through this weekend.

Also, I noticed the PTC is installing a new system for two-way operations at the Tuscarora Tunnel.  Starting about a mile before the tunnel, they have installed concrete barrier on the left side with automated swinging barriers.  They are orange semi-circle barriers with black-on-orange chevron symbols.  I'm guessing the purpose is to keep traffic from being in the lane that will handle oncoming traffic inside the tunnel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on March 24, 2019, 05:33:48 PM
Changing subjects, to the ongoing route 283 reconstruction around the PATP, does anybody know if Penndot is lengthening the PA 283 bridges over the Turnpike to allow for the (far) future widening eastward from the new Swatara Creek bridge?

It didn't look like they did anything more than rehabilitate the bridge when I drove through this weekend.

It'll be many years if not a few decades before the PTC finally gets around to this stretch because of its low volumes, so it makes a bit of sense. I'm sure if they were totally replacing it, they'd make it long enough for six lanes on the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2019, 08:10:42 AM
Officials take steps to clean the PA Turnpike.

PA Turnpike declared cleanest highway in America.

PA Turnpike closed between Downington & Valley Forge due to crash involving truck filled with soap.

https://www.philly.com/news/pennsylvania-turnpike-soap-spill-crash-downingtown-valley-forge-20190326.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on March 26, 2019, 08:50:04 AM
Officials take steps to clean the PA Turnpike.

PA Turnpike declared cleanest highway in America.

PA Turnpike closed between Downington & Valley Forge due to crash involving truck filled with soap.

https://www.philly.com/news/pennsylvania-turnpike-soap-spill-crash-downingtown-valley-forge-20190326.html


Slippery when wet.

Don't drop the soap
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 26, 2019, 09:23:58 AM
When will it dawn on you all to dial down these posts.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 26, 2019, 09:26:57 AM
Wanted to ask: With all the financial word at the PTC, will there be any new mainline improvement projects coming up?  I know the plan was for a full rebuild around US19 and the Freedom Road Bridge project.  But I see no reals signs of life over at the website.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on April 04, 2019, 02:53:18 PM
https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/judge-rejects-lawsuit-over-pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-hikes/ (https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/judge-rejects-lawsuit-over-pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-hikes/)

Either the article or the judge herself didn't go into too much detail about the decision.

Also, a plaintiffs’ lawyer says they’ll appeal.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 04, 2019, 03:03:26 PM
https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/judge-rejects-lawsuit-over-pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-hikes/ (https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/judge-rejects-lawsuit-over-pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-hikes/)

Either the article or the judge herself didn't go into too much detail about the decision.

Also, a plaintiffs’ lawyer says they’ll appeal.



The appeal isn't surprising. 

Doubt they'll succeed though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on April 07, 2019, 10:50:40 AM
It appears that the PTC is preparing to replace a mainline bridge over a rail line at about MM238, between US 15 and I-83. It's nothing major, but it's something. They did something similar last year just east of I-81 at Carlisle.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on April 30, 2019, 02:45:32 AM
Here's some pitchers of a widening project (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp40to48/album.html) from MM 40 to MM 48 (Pittsburgh area) that will wrap up later this year. The Turnpike Commission better have a blueprint ready for reconstruction and widening through Exit 39, because the Turnpike is about to be six lanes on both sides of the interchange.

Why the FOCK has reconstruction slowed down so much? It was going at a brisk pace for a while, but it's slowed way down in the last year or so.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on April 30, 2019, 04:13:58 AM
Here's some bridge replacement projects in western Pennsylvania (with photo galleries):


Near MM 28 (Butler County) (http://mabeech.com/construction/projects/replacement-of-bridge-on-freedom-road-over-pa-turnpike-i-76/)

Near MM 60 (Westmoreland County) (http://mabeech.com/construction/projects/replacement-of-pa-turnpike-bridges-wb500-and-wb500b-at-milepost-59-58-in-westmoreland-county/)

Near MM 110 (Somerset County) (http://mabeech.com/construction/projects/replacement-of-pa-turnpike-bridge-b-502-s-36737-at-milepost-110-12-in-somerset-county/)


 :wave:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on April 30, 2019, 07:14:14 AM
Quote
Why the FOCK has reconstruction slowed down so much? It was going at a brisk pace for a while, but it's slowed way down in the last year or so.

They are running out of money.  The PTC is behind in their Act 44 payments to PennDOT as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 30, 2019, 07:51:34 AM
Quote
Why the FOCK has reconstruction slowed down so much? It was going at a brisk pace for a while, but it's slowed way down in the last year or so.

They are running out of money.  The PTC is behind in their Act 44 payments to PennDOT as well.

Probably need to look at construction schedules and such.  Are you referring to one project's timing, or all construction in general?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on April 30, 2019, 12:30:40 PM
Quote
Why the FOCK has reconstruction slowed down so much? It was going at a brisk pace for a while, but it's slowed way down in the last year or so.

They are running out of money.  The PTC is behind in their Act 44 payments to PennDOT as well.

Some of the news stories that I read (which generally focused on the missed Act 44/89 payments) suggested that the PTC is not in any worse position financially but just hoarding cash–because of the cloud of uncertainty surrounding the outcome of the ATA/OOIDA class action lawsuits. The truckers’ suit was dismissed in early April but is currently being appealed. Assuming the appeal is also tossed out in the next month or so, I’d think the money would start flowing again shortly thereafter.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on May 04, 2019, 08:39:55 AM
Act 44 should be repealed with extreme prejudice.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 04, 2019, 09:29:06 AM
Is the Freedom Road Bridge project under way?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on May 05, 2019, 05:42:12 PM
Act 44 should be repealed with extreme prejudice.

Yeah, but then PennDOT has to pick up the slack on the mass transit from its own funds, and that takes away from other projects they could/should be focusing on. They're finally starting to get to many of the major highway projects (I-81 widening notwithstanding) and bridge repairs that had been postponed indefinitely, and effectively diverting more of their funds to deal with mass transit that the big cities themselves should be promoting and paying for, will screw them. Plus, they already got the state police (unconstitutionally) siphoning off $200 million annually from the highway fund.

That said, the PTC is not in the best financial position. Short of a major federal highway bill (and gas tax increase?), which will not happen in the current political environment, there's no easy answer to this mess.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on May 06, 2019, 03:37:29 PM
Is the Freedom Road Bridge project under way?

According to the website (who knows when that was last updated), the design phase started in 2014 - so in a sense, it is.

And while they're website isn't well maintained with new information, it seems like they're doing utility relocation work so actual construction is under way (expected to be completed in Dec 2020

http://butlerradio.com/work-begins-next-week-to-prepare-for-freedom-road-bridge-project/

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on May 07, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
Is the Freedom Road Bridge project under way?

Yes, that's the bridge replacement project near MM 28.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on May 27, 2019, 04:06:46 PM
This is a fairly specific question dealing with signing on the eastbound approach to the Breezewood interchange.

There are a couple of "Truck Alert" signs with the following messages, apparently the first two in a sequence of three or more:

Truck Alert - Avoid US 30 East Breezewood To McConnellsburg . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9858343,-78.2976242,3a,15y,138.16h,92.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqTF5U1c5fxGT0duGwDU3RA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Truck Alert - . . . 3 1/2 Mile Hill On US 30 East Bad Curves . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9827157,-78.2812077,3a,17.3y,122.62h,94.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipMNljM4LaE3wH6qtl_jT60ra-HR1vmmWth-s-8A!2e10!3e11!7i7680!8i3840)

The use of a trailing ellipsis on the second sign suggests that a third was posted at some point, possibly specifying difficult grades in addition to the "bad curves," but I cannot find it in StreetView.  Does anyone know if it existed and, if so, what it said?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 27, 2019, 04:32:43 PM
This is a fairly specific question dealing with signing on the eastbound approach to the Breezewood interchange.

There are a couple of "Truck Alert" signs with the following messages, apparently the first two in a sequence of three or more:

Truck Alert - Avoid US 30 East Breezewood To McConnellsburg . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9858343,-78.2976242,3a,15y,138.16h,92.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqTF5U1c5fxGT0duGwDU3RA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Truck Alert - . . . 3 1/2 Mile Hill On US 30 East Bad Curves . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9827157,-78.2812077,3a,17.3y,122.62h,94.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipMNljM4LaE3wH6qtl_jT60ra-HR1vmmWth-s-8A!2e10!3e11!7i7680!8i3840)

The use of a trailing ellipsis on the second sign suggests that a third was posted at some point, possibly specifying difficult grades in addition to the "bad curves," but I cannot find it in StreetView.  Does anyone know if it existed and, if so, what it said?

Were they on normal VMS signage? It could be the message was flipping back and forth, with the "..." just referring back to the other message. If you're looking at GSV, you just happened to see the message that GSV captured.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 27, 2019, 07:29:41 PM
This is a fairly specific question dealing with signing on the eastbound approach to the Breezewood interchange.

There are a couple of "Truck Alert" signs with the following messages, apparently the first two in a sequence of three or more:

Truck Alert - Avoid US 30 East Breezewood To McConnellsburg . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9858343,-78.2976242,3a,15y,138.16h,92.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqTF5U1c5fxGT0duGwDU3RA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Truck Alert - . . . 3 1/2 Mile Hill On US 30 East Bad Curves . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9827157,-78.2812077,3a,17.3y,122.62h,94.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipMNljM4LaE3wH6qtl_jT60ra-HR1vmmWth-s-8A!2e10!3e11!7i7680!8i3840)

The use of a trailing ellipsis on the second sign suggests that a third was posted at some point, possibly specifying difficult grades in addition to the "bad curves," but I cannot find it in StreetView.  Does anyone know if it existed and, if so, what it said?

Yes, there was a third...it said something along the lines of "Use Exit 180 Fort Littleton to US 522 South" - I don't remember the exact words.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 27, 2019, 07:59:27 PM
This is a fairly specific question dealing with signing on the eastbound approach to the Breezewood interchange.

There are a couple of "Truck Alert" signs with the following messages, apparently the first two in a sequence of three or more:

Truck Alert - Avoid US 30 East Breezewood To McConnellsburg . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9858343,-78.2976242,3a,15y,138.16h,92.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqTF5U1c5fxGT0duGwDU3RA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Truck Alert - . . . 3 1/2 Mile Hill On US 30 East Bad Curves . . . (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9827157,-78.2812077,3a,17.3y,122.62h,94.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipMNljM4LaE3wH6qtl_jT60ra-HR1vmmWth-s-8A!2e10!3e11!7i7680!8i3840)

The use of a trailing ellipsis on the second sign suggests that a third was posted at some point, possibly specifying difficult grades in addition to the "bad curves," but I cannot find it in StreetView.  Does anyone know if it existed and, if so, what it said?

IIRC those signs were recently replaced.  Think the whole message is now on one sign
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on May 27, 2019, 08:38:42 PM
Many thanks for these answers.  The guess as to the legend on the third sign is close enough to allow me to go ahead and make a mockup.

From travel along the Turnpike in the mid- to late nineties, I seem to recall a version with just one panel and legend along the lines of "Truck Alert - Bad Hill - [US 30] to McConnellsburg," but if this existed, it is long gone.  (I was not taking pictures of signs at the time or systematically recording unusual legends.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 18, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Also, I noticed the PTC is installing a new system for two-way operations at the Tuscarora Tunnel.  Starting about a mile before the tunnel, they have installed concrete barrier on the left side with automated swinging barriers.  They are orange semi-circle barriers with black-on-orange chevron symbols.  I'm guessing the purpose is to keep traffic from being in the lane that will handle oncoming traffic inside the tunnel.

Just noticed this in action on one of the webcams.  Kind of neat they can automatically close a lane.

(https://i.ibb.co/K7JYQSD/Annotation-2019-06-18-130714.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
upload (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SGwithADD on July 10, 2019, 08:05:01 AM
Turnpike to go cashless at Ohio border, Turnpike Route 66 in October  (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2019/07/10/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-cashless-tolling-Gateway-Turnpike-Route-66-E-ZPass-Toll-By-Plate/stories/201907090137)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 10, 2019, 10:00:01 AM
The article doesn't indicate if the Turnpike plans to install overhead gantries on the westbound side and have the toll be 2-way again, or if they plan on keeping it the doubled toll 1-way, eastbound, indefinitely. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 10, 2019, 10:22:18 AM
The article doesn't indicate if the Turnpike plans to install overhead gantries on the westbound side and have the toll be 2-way again, or if they plan on keeping it the doubled toll 1-way, eastbound, indefinitely.
Given that this AET conversion along the PA Turnpike is incremental (aka piece-meal) vs. the instantaneous AET conversions that took place along the entire Mass Pike (I-90) as well as the three Boston Harbor crossings just over 3 years ago; I wouldn't expect to hear any talk of returning of any 2-way conversions, where applicable, until the entire PA Turnpike is AET.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 10, 2019, 11:11:37 AM
The article doesn't indicate if the Turnpike plans to install overhead gantries on the westbound side and have the toll be 2-way again, or if they plan on keeping it the doubled toll 1-way, eastbound, indefinitely. 


It makes sense to continue the 1 way tolling.  Tolling both directions involve increased costs for equipment, transactions, billings, mailings, 2nd mailings, etc. 

Unless there's a huge difference in traffic numbers from people avoiding the 1 way toll, continue with the status quo. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 10, 2019, 11:51:34 AM
The article doesn't indicate if the Turnpike plans to install overhead gantries on the westbound side and have the toll be 2-way again, or if they plan on keeping it the doubled toll 1-way, eastbound, indefinitely. 


It makes sense to continue the 1 way tolling.  Tolling both directions involve increased costs for equipment, transactions, billings, mailings, 2nd mailings, etc. 

Unless there's a huge difference in traffic numbers from people avoiding the 1 way toll, continue with the status quo. 

I have to imagine the $5.50 E-ZPass toll drives some people off the Turnpike. Personally, I'd like to see AET bring 2-way tolling along the entire section from the OH state line to Warrendale. The toll-free zone came about from the difficulty in having a toll plaza at the reconstructed Cranberry interchange. With AET, toll plazas are no longer a concern.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 10, 2019, 01:00:22 PM
Might as well keep it one-way EB given that Ohio has plans to truncate their ticket system and put in a one-way WB toll at the state line.  There's certainly room to put in a couple gantries between I-376 and I-79, though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 10, 2019, 06:31:59 PM
The Tribune-Review (https://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/turnpike-route-66-in-westmoreland-and-plaza-at-ohio-border-to-go-cashless/) article on the conversion just mentions eastbound being converted but nothing about tolls returning for westbound traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 10, 2019, 08:53:29 PM
The article doesn't indicate if the Turnpike plans to install overhead gantries on the westbound side and have the toll be 2-way again, or if they plan on keeping it the doubled toll 1-way, eastbound, indefinitely. 


It makes sense to continue the 1 way tolling.  Tolling both directions involve increased costs for equipment, transactions, billings, mailings, 2nd mailings, etc. 

Unless there's a huge difference in traffic numbers from people avoiding the 1 way toll, continue with the status quo. 

I have to imagine the $5.50 E-ZPass toll drives some people off the Turnpike. Personally, I'd like to see AET bring 2-way tolling along the entire section from the OH state line to Warrendale. The toll-free zone came about from the difficulty in having a toll plaza at the reconstructed Cranberry interchange. With AET, toll plazas are no longer a concern.

But there are other issues to deal with.

On the eastern end, they built a 1 way AET toll approximately where there was formally a 2 way toll plaza. Clearly they weren't worried about people avoiding the toll, and the issues with 2 way AET tolling were significant enough to simply go one way only.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 11, 2019, 08:22:10 AM
On the eastern end, they built a 1 way AET toll approximately where there was formally a 2 way toll plaza. Clearly they weren't worried about people avoiding the toll, and the issues with 2 way AET tolling were significant enough to simply go one way only.
That so-called 2-way toll plaza was actually the eastern end of the PA Turnpike's toll-ticket system.  Such was relocated west of the newly-opened I-95 connection.

The reason why that AET gantry is 1-way (PA-bound) is due to the surrounding tolled Delaware River crossings (run by different agencies) being 1-way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CapeCodder on July 12, 2019, 05:14:03 AM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 12, 2019, 12:18:34 PM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

If we're looking decades into the future, I'd give it a firm "can't totally rule it out"
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 12, 2019, 07:21:28 PM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

At one point, a state senator put forth legislation to build one there and Breezewood:  https://www.facebook.com/pahighways/photos/a.10150507369662352/10155669878737352/?type=3&theater.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 12, 2019, 07:30:50 PM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Not in your lifetime.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CapeCodder on July 13, 2019, 06:52:31 AM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 13, 2019, 09:09:31 AM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2019, 09:11:49 AM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.
Also, they've allowed some serious development right at the overpass.  Building a direct interchange is getting more and more difficult.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 13, 2019, 09:14:51 AM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Not in your lifetime.
You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.
PA doesn't care about things like that.
Also, they've allowed some serious development right at the overpass.  Building a direct interchange is getting more and more difficult.

(http://capital-beltway.com/CarlislePA.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2019, 09:18:09 AM
Yeah, I remember that idea.  Given the number of years it will be before PA even considers doing something there, I wouldn't be surprised if another distribution center pops up near there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 13, 2019, 09:42:00 AM
Yeah, I remember that idea.  Given the number of years it will be before PA even considers doing something there, I wouldn't be surprised if another distribution center pops up near there.

Advance right-of-way acquisition ...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2019, 09:47:48 AM
PennDOT would have to be motivated to do so, and they are not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 13, 2019, 11:16:10 AM
(http://capital-beltway.com/CarlislePA.jpg)

#FarmLivesMatter
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 13, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
http://capital-beltway.com/CarlislePA.jpg
#FarmLivesMatter

The cows, pigs, chickens, crops, horses and shooting ranges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 13, 2019, 10:08:27 PM
It would probably be easier to build a new trumpet on the Turnpike pointing the opposite way, with a folded diamond interchange with US 11, and ending at another trumpet on I-81 north of Claremont Road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 13, 2019, 10:34:11 PM
It would probably be easier to build a new trumpet on the Turnpike pointing the opposite way, with a folded diamond interchange with US 11, and ending at another trumpet on I-81 north of Claremont Road.

I considered that, and had 3 different schemes.  The one above was just one, but was the one that could work well and avoid making PCT move their interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mrsman on July 14, 2019, 11:12:18 AM
It would probably be easier to build a new trumpet on the Turnpike pointing the opposite way, with a folded diamond interchange with US 11, and ending at another trumpet on I-81 north of Claremont Road.

I considered that, and had 3 different schemes.  The one above was just one, but was the one that could work well and avoid making PCT move their interchange.

I wonder to what extent the move toward AET may have on the ability of connecting more highways to the turnpike directly.  Certainly if toll booths do not need to be constructed, the interchanges can be a lot cheaper.  It will also allow for more direct interchanges, rather than the more common double-trumpets that toll roads tend to have.

Of course, I am not on top of whether the PA Turnpike is moving toward AET, even though many toll facilities in the Northeast are in the process of converting.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on July 14, 2019, 02:12:24 PM
I wonder to what extent the move toward AET may have on the ability of connecting more highways to the turnpike directly.  Certainly if toll booths do not need to be constructed, the interchanges can be a lot cheaper.  It will also allow for more direct interchanges, rather than the more common double-trumpets that toll roads tend to have.

Of course, I am not on top of whether the PA Turnpike is moving toward AET, even though many toll facilities in the Northeast are in the process of converting.

Yes, the PTC plans to complete the transition to all-electronic tolling in late 2022. Rather than doing an instantaneous conversion, the Commission has been slowly chipping away at the closed ticket system as well as building E-ZPass-only interchanges within it. Recent and upcoming major interchange projects (I-95, Scranton Beltway) have been planned around using high-speed cashless tolling, and I think it’s a foregone conclusion that any future connections at Carlisle, Breezewood, or elsewhere will be as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 14, 2019, 02:18:00 PM
Yes, the PTC plans to complete the transition to all-electronic tolling in late 2022. Rather than doing an instantaneous conversion, the Commission has been slowly chipping away at the closed ticket system as well as building E-ZPass-only interchanges within it. Recent and upcoming major interchange projects (I-95, Scranton Beltway) have been planned around using high-speed cashless tolling, and I think it’s a foregone conclusion that any future connections at Carlisle, Breezewood, or elsewhere will be as well.

Carlisle has a major group of industrial businesses in the southeast quadrant of where the Turnpike crosses I-81.  That would be a major obstacle to building a conventional freeway-to-freeway interchange.  Therefore a scheme like mine above might be worth building soon because that might be the best they can do there; and providing a direct connection is far better than what they have today.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on July 14, 2019, 04:12:34 PM
Of course any new connections would take into account the cost of ROW acquisition, the impact to the community, etc. But I don’t think that any future interchanges built by the PTC would include traditional toll plazas. That said, a double trumpet or other design that brings all directions of traffic to a single point may be the most advantageous design anyway.

Since I-81 is a diagonal route, it occurred to me that only four of the eight connections are probably high priorities (E to N, N to E, W to S, S to W). So my initial thought would be that the PTC could solve the majority of the problem at less cost by building just those four ramps at the crossing–essentially half a stack–and have the other (arguably less logical) connections use the existing Carlisle interchange to connect via US 11. But as observed, the warehouse in the SE quadrant would challenge one of the necessary ramps (N to E), and by the time all of the weave issues with the existing Carlisle/Middlesex ramps were resolved with braids, the result would probably be a very expensive (yet still incomplete) interchange. So I abandoned that idea.

I think Scott’s and Valerie’s suggestion of a pair of three-way interchanges has merit. I played around with the concept for a little while and came up with the sketch below. The greatest ROW impact is to the auto salvage yard north of the Turnpike. But the Ahold headquarters building (just northeast of the connector on US 11) would remain untouched, the commercial businesses on US 11 would be largely unaffected, and only a few homes would need to be taken.

On the Turnpike exits in both directions, off-ramps would split into I-81 and US 11 lanes. The existing trumpet at US 11 is retained in this sketch to provide access to/from the Turnpike westbound, but it could be replaced with an at-grade intersection. Access to/from the eastbound Turnpike is provided via a pair of at-grade intersections on either side of the connector. This sketch also includes an on-ramp to I-81 southbound via the connector–the idea being that I-81 southbound travelers could resume a journey after stopping along the US 11 commercial strip without having to backtrack northward–but this could be deleted.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48274429627_ae06801574_h.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 14, 2019, 10:33:52 PM
That probably could work.  Also, then PennDOT could 'downgrade' the US-11 interchange on I-81 to either a SPUI or a simple diamond as the 3-part cloverleaf there would be overpowered, and free back up some land for new businesses.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 14, 2019, 10:38:13 PM
That probably could work.  Also, then PennDOT could 'downgrade' the US-11 interchange on I-81 to either a SPUI or a simple diamond as the 3-part cloverleaf there would be overpowered, and free back up some land for new businesses.

All the local traffic could be directed to the US-11/I-81 interchange, with no direct connections between the Turnpike and US-11, but I figured that PTC may refuse to go along with that.

That scheme of Brian's was one of the general ideas that I had as to where to connect the two highways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 14, 2019, 10:45:06 PM
That probably could work.  Also, then PennDOT could 'downgrade' the US-11 interchange on I-81 to either a SPUI or a simple diamond as the 3-part cloverleaf there would be overpowered, and free back up some land for new businesses.

All the local traffic could be directed to the US-11/I-81 interchange, with no direct connections between the Turnpike and US-11, but I figured that PTC may refuse to go along with that.

That scheme of Brian's was one of the general ideas that I had as to where to connect the two highways.

That's why I mentioned the option of a possible SPUI to replace the current US-11/I-81 interchange as well.  Can't hurt to remove a weave area, plus you aren't adding any extra traffic lights that way, since there's already one for the I-81 SB offramp due to no loop for the I-81 SB -> US-11 NB movement.  Just shift it to under I-81, plus would give some more space between it & the light that's almost right beside the current one @ Country Club Rd.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 15, 2019, 08:43:21 AM
I played around with On the Turnpike exits in both directions, off-ramps would split into I-81 and US 11 lanes. The existing trumpet at US 11 is retained in this sketch to provide access to/from the Turnpike westbound, but it could be replaced with an at-grade intersection.
Disagree regarding using an at-grade intersection at US 11 en lieu of the existing trumpet interchange at this location.  The Carlisle Fairgrounds down the road has many events (mostly car shows) throughout the year and US 11 from the grounds to the Turnpike interchange does become a parking lot towards the beginning and ending of those events.  One less traffic signal or the need to make a left turn, which forces traffic in the opposite direction to stop, the better IMHO.

BTW, your above-sketch looks like the best possible solution for that area; especially once the PTC goes fully-AET.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: VTGoose on July 15, 2019, 09:24:51 AM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.
Also, they've allowed some serious development right at the overpass.  Building a direct interchange is getting more and more difficult.

Lots of interesting concepts to connect the two highways, but the key is right here -- all the businesses around those two interchanges generate tax revenue (and profits) and the various localities will not give that up lightly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 15, 2019, 10:04:16 AM
My Bedford concept is another that would probably be the most ideal for a future AET design format.

A conventional freeway-to-freeway interchange would incur major right-of-way industrial impacts/costs, and would complicate if not obviate the local access.

If there is an issue with the loop weaving on I-99 then there is ample space for C-D roadways, and the east-to-north movement might be handled with a semi-directional ramp.  The loop at the Turnpike might also be better handled with a semi-directional ramp. 

(http://capital-beltway.com/BedfordPA.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 15, 2019, 10:20:52 AM
I played around with On the Turnpike exits in both directions, off-ramps would split into I-81 and US 11 lanes. The existing trumpet at US 11 is retained in this sketch to provide access to/from the Turnpike westbound, but it could be replaced with an at-grade intersection.
Disagree regarding using an at-grade intersection at US 11 en lieu of the existing trumpet interchange at this location.  The Carlisle Fairgrounds down the road has many events (mostly car shows) throughout the year and US 11 from the grounds to the Turnpike interchange does become a parking lot towards the beginning and ending of those events.  One less traffic signal or the need to make a left turn, which forces traffic in the opposite direction to stop, the better IMHO.

BTW, your above-sketch looks like the best possible solution for that area; especially once the PTC goes fully-AET.
I played around with On the Turnpike exits in both directions, off-ramps would split into I-81 and US 11 lanes. The existing trumpet at US 11 is retained in this sketch to provide access to/from the Turnpike westbound, but it could be replaced with an at-grade intersection.
Disagree regarding using an at-grade intersection at US 11 en lieu of the existing trumpet interchange at this location.  The Carlisle Fairgrounds down the road has many events (mostly car shows) throughout the year and US 11 from the grounds to the Turnpike interchange does become a parking lot towards the beginning and ending of those events.  One less traffic signal or the need to make a left turn, which forces traffic in the opposite direction to stop, the better IMHO.

BTW, your above-sketch looks like the best possible solution for that area; especially once the PTC goes fully-AET.

While we, as a group, are a lot more sensitive as to how roads are built, ultimately we are amateurs at this.  We see a picture or an aerial view, we put a line down, and we say "Perfect".  In reality, that's much harder said then done.

Using the above example, you're still going thru someone's land - land that someone owns and probably won't give it up without a large sum of money exchanging hands.  There's still people's homes in the path.  Some of the interchange loops are *extremely* tight.  Compare a few of them to the loops at I-81 and US 11, and you see how the radii will probably be quite substandard. Ramp locations near buildings and structures need to be designed to not encroach on those buildings and parking lots.  That adds considerable costs to a project.

When it comes to reconstruction of an area, the existing infrastructure needs to be considered.  Apart from completely closing the interchange, a new design needs to take into account what can be done with existing traffic.  It's often easier to build a highway from scratch than to work around what's there.

In an example of what the PTC and PennDOT did right, look at the PA Turnpike/I-176 Interchange.  Even though those two roads actually come within 350 feet of each other at its closest point, the actual interchange is 2 miles southeast of that location.  The land there wouldn't allow for such an interchange, which is something else to consider when designing highways; something an aerial photo doesn't easily depict.  Stuff under the ground can easily be a deterrent, or an expensive remedy, that we'll never be aware of either.

The point is - a location a few miles away from here may actually be a better choice, with a highway connecting the two.

Of course, in this area, there aren't too many open areas until you go a considerable ways out. But that's not necearially a bad thing - land costs can be cheaper, and better ramps can be built!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 15, 2019, 11:08:55 AM
Using the above example, you're still going thru someone's land - land that someone owns and probably won't give it up without a large sum of money exchanging hands.  There's still people's homes in the path.  Some of the interchange loops are *extremely* tight.  Compare a few of them to the loops at I-81 and US 11, and you see how the radii will probably be quite substandard. Ramp locations near buildings and structures need to be designed to not encroach on those buildings and parking lots.  That adds considerable costs to a project.

It is a shame that this interchange wasn't built along with I-81 back 40+ years ago when it would have been a lot simpler with a lot less development in the way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 15, 2019, 12:11:45 PM
While we, as a group, are a lot more sensitive as to how roads are built, ultimately we are amateurs at this.  We see a picture or an aerial view, we put a line down, and we say "Perfect".  In reality, that's much harder said then done.
I honestly don't believe that anyone on this board was saying that any implementation of a proposed scheme was going to be easy.  Also, do keep in mind there's a sizable number users on this board are indeed either in the civil engineering profession or in some DOT/agency capacity as part of their job/profession.  So they have been indeed been exposed to or have been behind the scenes regarding these type of designs as it were.

Using the above example, you're still going thru someone's land - land that someone owns and probably won't give it up without a large sum of money exchanging hands.
Any type of interchange reconfiguration and/or modifications will involve land takings.  The main objective would be which design offers the best overall operation/efficiency but the minimal amount of land-takings.  To be sure, such is a balancing act. 

There's still people's homes in the path.  Some of the interchange loops are *extremely* tight.  Compare a few of them to the loops at I-81 and US 11, and you see how the radii will probably be quite substandard.
Looking at Brian's graphic a tad closer and I would agree that some of the ramp radii, mainly the ones from US 11 to I-76 eastbound are indeed tight.  I believe that he was trying to avoid a major alteration to the existing US 11 trumpet interchange as well as the Turnpike (I-76) overpass... the latter was just recently replaced with a brand new 6-lane wide mainline structure.

Ramp locations near buildings and structures need to be designed to not encroach on those buildings and parking lots.  That adds considerable costs to a project.
I don't believe that anyone here was dismissing such.  However, while this area does have development on it; it's nowhere near as dense as, say, the Greater Philly area.

When it comes to reconstruction of an area, the existing infrastructure needs to be considered.  Apart from completely closing the interchange, a new design needs to take into account what can be done with existing traffic.
Such would be known as maintenance/protection of traffic or work zone plans.  To be sure, such a project as this would need to be done in phases... just like the I-76/295/NJ 42 interchange project in your neck of the woods.   

It's often easier to build a highway from scratch than to work around what's there.
Absolutely.

The point is - a location a few miles away from here may actually be a better choice, with a highway connecting the two.
Usually when a project of this type is proposed; several configuration options are shown in the study (or studies) with listings of both their pros & cons... as well as the No Build option/alternative.

Of course, in this area, there aren't too many open areas until you go a considerable ways out. But that's not necearially a bad thing - land costs can be cheaper, and better ramps can be built!
Looking at the area more closely; one design option would be to build a new dual-trumpet-style w/a connector interchange between I-76/PA Turnpike & I-81 well east of its present trumpet interchange w/US 11 and the I-81 overpass.  The connector would run in a southwesterly direction towards I-81.  With that option, it would be wise IMHO to leave the existing Carlisle interchange w/US 11 as is and not extend the new connector west of I-81.  Such would cut down on the more expensive land takings along the US 11 corridor.  OTOH, if the above-example I described included extending the connector further west to US 11 (such could end at a signalized intersection & the interchange w/I-81 would be a diamond or a cloverleaf rather than a trumpet); only then would the existing Turnpike trumpet interchange could be ultimately eliminated and some land space in that former-footprint would be freed up. 

Someone with more time on their hands can feel free to sketch something like that up.  Although I would suggest doing such in either the Fictional Highways (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=20.0) section or the Redesigning Interchanges (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3618) thread; at least until actual design proposals for this area/interchange (if any) become known.

A couple of past PA Turnpike interchange upgrade projects that indeed involved building a new trumpet interchange along the Turnpike itself were the US 222/Reading interchange circa the 1970s and the I-176/Morgantown interchange from the 1990s.  Both of those examples ultimately involved the removal of the older trumpet interchanges.  One can still see traces of most of those old ramps while riding along the Turnpike; the old westbound ramps for the Morgantown interchange have long since been eliminated.

It is a shame that this interchange wasn't built along with I-81 back 40 50+ years ago when it would have been a lot simpler with a lot less development in the way.
FTFY.  I-81 in that area was built during the late 1960s based on looking through historic aerials.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: VTGoose on July 15, 2019, 02:35:59 PM

Of course, in this area, there aren't too many open areas until you go a considerable ways out. But that's not necessarily a bad thing - land costs can be cheaper, and better ramps can be built!
Looking at the area more closely; one design option would be to build a new dual-trumpet-style w/a connector interchange between I-76/PA Turnpike & I-81 well east of its present trumpet interchange w/US 11 and the I-81 overpass.  The connector would run in a southwesterly direction towards I-81.  With that option, it would be wise IMHO to leave the existing Carlisle interchange w/US 11 as is and not extend the new connector west of I-81.  Such would cut down on the more expensive land takings along the US 11 corridor.  OTOH, if the above-example I described included extending the connector further west to US 11 (such could end at a signalized intersection & the interchange w/I-81 would be a diamond or a cloverleaf rather than a trumpet); only then would the existing Turnpike trumpet interchange could be ultimately eliminated and some land space in that former-footprint would be freed up. 


If thinking outside the box with an interchange not right where I-81 and the Turnpike cross, why not look west of Carlisle? There is more open land and not many houses/businesses would need to be taken. Put an interchange just east of the Cumberland Valley Service Plaza and run a 2-mile highway south to I-81 and a new interchange there. The road would be located between Pa. 465 and the Cumberland Golf Club. It would provide a better connection to the turnpike for the distribution centers and other businesses in that area and be an alternative route from Carlisle for those who want to go west on the Turnpike.

Bruce in Blacksburg (but a short-time resident of Carlisle a long time ago)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 15, 2019, 02:45:12 PM
If thinking outside the box with an interchange not right where I-81 and the Turnpike cross, why not look west of Carlisle? There is more open land and not many houses/businesses would need to be taken. Put an interchange just east of the Cumberland Valley Service Plaza and run a 2-mile highway south to I-81 and a new interchange there. The road would be located between Pa. 465 and the Cumberland Golf Club. It would provide a better connection to the turnpike for the distribution centers and other businesses in that area and be an alternative route from Carlisle for those who want to go west on the Turnpike.
Bruce in Blacksburg (but a short-time resident of Carlisle a long time ago)

How would Carlisle feel about having a beltway around it?  :-/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 15, 2019, 02:54:19 PM
It is a shame that this interchange wasn't built along with I-81 back 40 50+ years ago when it would have been a lot simpler with a lot less development in the way.
FTFY.  I-81 in that area was built during the late 1960s based on looking through historic aerials.

Up to the US-11 interchange at Carlisle.  The segment north of there opened in the mid-1970s, need to do some research but I recall between 1975 and 1977. 

I just did check the 1973 state highway map and that is shown under construction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 15, 2019, 03:39:56 PM
If thinking outside the box with an interchange not right where I-81 and the Turnpike cross, why not look west of Carlisle? There is more open land and not many houses/businesses would need to be taken. Put an interchange just east of the Cumberland Valley Service Plaza and run a 2-mile highway south to I-81 and a new interchange there. The road would be located between Pa. 465 and the Cumberland Golf Club. It would provide a better connection to the turnpike for the distribution centers and other businesses in that area and be an alternative route from Carlisle for those who want to go west on the Turnpike.
With that option (if such was ever seriously adopted) IMHO; it would be desirable that the existing Carlisle interchange remain.  Even with connecting I-76/81 traffic diverted away from US 11 in this area; there's enough of a demand to access US 11 to/from I-76.

It is a shame that this interchange wasn't built along with I-81 back 40 50+ years ago when it would have been a lot simpler with a lot less development in the way.
FTFY.  I-81 in that area was built during the late 1960s based on looking through historic aerials.

Up to the US-11 interchange at Carlisle.  The segment north of there opened in the mid-1970s, need to do some research but I recall between 1975 and 1977. 

I just did check the 1973 state highway map and that is shown under construction.
When I stated in that area per my earlier post; I was specifically referring to the stretch of I-81 that crossed the Turnpike; not the stretch north of the US 11/current Exit 52 interchange.  1968 Historic Aerials appears to be the earliest photo that shows I-81 south of Exit 52.  Had it not been for that lame prohibition regarding toll roads not funding direct connections to Interstate highways that was in place back then; there would've been no reason not to build a direct connection when those overpasses were built in the mid-to-late 60s.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 15, 2019, 08:11:27 PM
It is a shame that this interchange wasn't built along with I-81 back 40 50+ years ago when it would have been a lot simpler with a lot less development in the way.
FTFY.  I-81 in that area was built during the late 1960s based on looking through historic aerials.
Up to the US-11 interchange at Carlisle.  The segment north of there opened in the mid-1970s, need to do some research but I recall between 1975 and 1977. 
I just did check the 1973 state highway map and that is shown under construction.
When I stated in that area per my earlier post; I was specifically referring to the stretch of I-81 that crossed the Turnpike; not the stretch north of the US 11/current Exit 52 interchange.  1968 Historic Aerials appears to be the earliest photo that shows I-81 south of Exit 52.  Had it not been for that lame prohibition regarding toll roads not funding direct connections to Interstate highways that was in place back then; there would've been no reason not to build a direct connection when those overpasses were built in the mid-to-late 60s.
The I-81 segment with the most likely location for the Turnpike interchange was completed in 1968.  The interchange could have provided southerly I-81 access to the Turnpike, but there was no I-81 northerly access possible because that segment did not yet exist, and was not fully complete until 1976.  So I would question whether the PTC would put much importance on building the interchange in the 1960s, whereas getting it built by 1976 was a much more ideal priority.

"In 1975, the section between Exit 65 and Exit 66 which included the George N. Wade Bridge was finally completed, and the following year, the remaining sections from Exit 57 to Exit 65 and Exit 66 to Interstate 83 were completed just in time for our country's Bicentennial celebration." http://www.pahighways.com/interstates/I81.html

The typical scheme in the tollroad states for building an interchange was for the tollroad authority and the state DOT to partner and each take responsibility for about 50% of the interchange, the state part using 90/10 federal/state funding and the tollroad authority part using toll revenue bonds.

The charge of PA not getting such an arrangement back then is controversial, and I have seen arguments on both sides of the issue.  The fact is that many such tollroad interchanges were built with the original Interstate highway system and the PTC built some themselves (I-376, I-70 west, I-83, I-283, I-76 east).

While the Interstate 90/10 funding was helpful, the tollroad authority still had some major work and funding of their own to accomplish, and the above arrangement seems fair enough to both parties.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on July 15, 2019, 11:10:32 PM
Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?
Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.
Also, they've allowed some serious development right at the overpass.  Building a direct interchange is getting more and more difficult.

Lots of interesting concepts to connect the two highways, but the key is right here -- all the businesses around those two interchanges generate tax revenue (and profits) and the various localities will not give that up lightly.

I hate it, but he’s absolutely right.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mrsman on July 16, 2019, 09:25:26 PM

Of course, in this area, there aren't too many open areas until you go a considerable ways out. But that's not necessarily a bad thing - land costs can be cheaper, and better ramps can be built!
Looking at the area more closely; one design option would be to build a new dual-trumpet-style w/a connector interchange between I-76/PA Turnpike & I-81 well east of its present trumpet interchange w/US 11 and the I-81 overpass.  The connector would run in a southwesterly direction towards I-81.  With that option, it would be wise IMHO to leave the existing Carlisle interchange w/US 11 as is and not extend the new connector west of I-81.  Such would cut down on the more expensive land takings along the US 11 corridor.  OTOH, if the above-example I described included extending the connector further west to US 11 (such could end at a signalized intersection & the interchange w/I-81 would be a diamond or a cloverleaf rather than a trumpet); only then would the existing Turnpike trumpet interchange could be ultimately eliminated and some land space in that former-footprint would be freed up. 


If thinking outside the box with an interchange not right where I-81 and the Turnpike cross, why not look west of Carlisle? There is more open land and not many houses/businesses would need to be taken. Put an interchange just east of the Cumberland Valley Service Plaza and run a 2-mile highway south to I-81 and a new interchange there. The road would be located between Pa. 465 and the Cumberland Golf Club. It would provide a better connection to the turnpike for the distribution centers and other businesses in that area and be an alternative route from Carlisle for those who want to go west on the Turnpike.

Bruce in Blacksburg (but a short-time resident of Carlisle a long time ago)

Something like that, while somewhat helpful would probably still encourage significant traffic along US 11 to connect the Turnpike to I-81.

To an extent, there already are stop-light free connections between I-81 and I-76 in Harrisburg.  Yet those aren't used because it involves some backtracking.  I'm afraid the connection needs to be closer to the point where they cross over each other.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
While not necessarily new news but the upcoming toll increase for next year has become official.

PA Turnpike OKs Six Percent Toll Increase for 2020.  Increase is set to start next year at 12:01 a.m. on Jan. 5. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190716155432.htm)

Unfortunately, the increases once again include Delaware River Bridge toll (the 2018 toll increase did not include the bridge).
Quote from: PA Turnpike Media & Public Relations News Release
The cashless toll at the westbound Delaware River Bridge will increase from $5.30 to $5.70 for E-ZPass customers and from $7.20 to $7.70 for those who use PA Turnpike TOLL BY PLATE.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 17, 2019, 09:27:46 AM
Something like that, while somewhat helpful would probably still encourage significant traffic along US 11 to connect the Turnpike to I-81.
To an extent, there already are stop-light free connections between I-81 and I-76 in Harrisburg.  Yet those aren't used because it involves some backtracking.  I'm afraid the connection needs to be closer to the point where they cross over each other.
The Google Maps preferred route between easterly I-76 and southerly I-81 doesn't even use the Carlisle interchange, it uses segments of I-83 and PA-581 to make the connection, and that reduces tolls by 16 miles, and that is all-freeway though it means going thru 2 interchanges.  Though the difference is only on the order of 1 mile and 2 minutes.

The alternate routes between westerly I-76 and northerly I-81 aren't dramatically different; using I-76 to I-283 to I-83 is 8 miles and 7 minutes longer than by using the Carlisle interchange, although it means 21 more miles of tolls.  The routing between westerly I-76 and northerly US-15 would be at a major distance and time disadvantage to use the southerly all-freeway route.

But as you say how many people use those alternate routes or even know about them?  Connecting at Carlisle is the logical place for the non-local motorist.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2019, 09:30:21 AM
While not necessarily new news but the upcoming toll increase for next year has become official.

PA Turnpike OKs Six Percent Toll Increase for 2020.  Increase is set to start next year at 12:01 a.m. on Jan. 5. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190716155432.htm)

Unfortunately, the increases once again include Delaware River Bridge toll (the 2018 toll increase did not include the bridge).
Quote from: PA Turnpike Media & Public Relations News Release
The cashless toll at the westbound Delaware River Bridge will increase from $5.30 to $5.70 for E-ZPass customers and from $7.20 to $7.70 for those who use PA Turnpike TOLL BY PLATE.

Within the linked press release:

Quote
Because of today’s action, the most-common toll for a passenger vehicle next year will increase from $1.40 to $1.50 for E-ZPass customers and from $2.30 to $2.50 for cash customers.

A quick look appears that the "most-common" toll is a misleading play on words.  Here's the EZ Pass toll schedule: https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/tolls/tolls_2019/2019_EZPass.pdf .  If you scan thru the document, you'll notice that $1.40 is often the toll between two interchanges.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the most commonly paid toll, which is what they try to allude to.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2019, 10:06:03 AM
Within the linked press release:
Quote
Because of today’s action, the most-common toll for a passenger vehicle next year will increase from $1.40 to $1.50 for E-ZPass customers and from $2.30 to $2.50 for cash customers.

A quick look appears that the "most-common" toll is a misleading play on words.  Here's the EZ Pass toll schedule: https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/tolls/tolls_2019/2019_EZPass.pdf .  If you scan thru the document, you'll notice that $1.40 is often the toll between two interchanges.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the most commonly paid toll, which is what they try to allude to.
Yes & no.  First & foremost, I do not support nor condone these toll increases.

That said, while such is definitely trying to place a spin and/or downplay on the toll increase as much as possible; along the more populated areas where the interchanges are spaced closer together, there is indeed more traffic that uses the Turnpike for only short distances/i.e. to the next interchange.

I have personally made trips along I-276 between I-476 (Mid-County) & PA 309 (Fort Washington) as well as along I-476 (Northeast Extension) between I-276 (Mid-County) and PA 63 (Lansdale) many times over the years.  The former was used to head to/from Wyncote while the latter was used as a means to get to/from Harleysville; southern Delaware County being my home origin/destination for said-trips.

Current tolls for both of the above-examples are indeed $1.40 E-ZPass/$2.30 Cash.

Long story short; whether one thinks that the PTC is being deceptive by using the term most-common for their lowest toll between two interchanges is deceptive or not is dependent upon where one resides & which stretch of Turnpike one is using.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2019, 01:01:23 PM
Within the linked press release:
Quote
Because of today’s action, the most-common toll for a passenger vehicle next year will increase from $1.40 to $1.50 for E-ZPass customers and from $2.30 to $2.50 for cash customers.

A quick look appears that the "most-common" toll is a misleading play on words.  Here's the EZ Pass toll schedule: https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/tolls/tolls_2019/2019_EZPass.pdf .  If you scan thru the document, you'll notice that $1.40 is often the toll between two interchanges.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the most commonly paid toll, which is what they try to allude to.
Yes & no.  First & foremost, I do not support nor condone these toll increases.

That said, while such is definitely trying to place a spin and/or downplay on the toll increase as much as possible; along the more populated areas where the interchanges are spaced closer together, there is indeed more traffic that uses the Turnpike for only short distances/i.e. to the next interchange.

I have personally made trips along I-276 between I-476 (Mid-County) & PA 309 (Fort Washington) as well as along I-476 (Northeast Extension) between I-276 (Mid-County) and PA 63 (Lansdale) many times over the years.  The former was used to head to/from Wyncote while the latter was used as a means to get to/from Harleysville; southern Delaware County being my home origin/destination for said-trips.

Current tolls for both of the above-examples are indeed $1.40 E-ZPass/$2.30 Cash.

Long story short; whether one thinks that the PTC is being deceptive by using the term most-common for their lowest toll between two interchanges is deceptive or not is dependent upon where one resides & which stretch of Turnpike one is using.

I get that people only go 1 interchange. I do that quite often on the NJ Turnpike.

But the Turnpike clearly doesn't say that the average user pays $1.40.  They simply state what the most common toll (amount) is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2019, 01:17:09 PM
But the Turnpike clearly doesn't say that the average user pays $1.40.  They simply state what the most common toll (amount) is.
To me, the term most common would mean/imply a majority not an average... would it not? 

If such is indeed true; then the PTC seems to be insinuating that the majority of their traffic is either going between interchanges and/or is along the southeastern PA portions (I-276 & the lower part of the NE Extension/I-476).  The latter wouldn't surprise me given that I-276 essentially does double-duty (local & through traffic) due to absence of the once-proposed 12-Mile Loop Expressway.  Had such been built; it would've operated similar to I-295 with respect to the NJ Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 17, 2019, 02:44:56 PM
If such is indeed true; then the PTC seems to be insinuating that the majority of their traffic is either going between interchanges and/or is along the southeastern PA portions (I-276 & the lower part of the NE Extension/I-476).  The latter wouldn't surprise me given that I-276 essentially does double-duty (local & through traffic) due to absence of the once-proposed 12-Mile Loop Expressway.  Had such been built; it would've operated similar to I-295 with respect to the NJ Turnpike.

I-276 could do that if the interchange spacing wasn't so wide.  Five segments, 32 miles, average spacing of 6.4 miles, too wide for an metropolitan beltway.  If that was 2.5 or 3 mile spacing, it could do the whole job, although part might need 8 lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2019, 03:00:51 PM
If such is indeed true; then the PTC seems to be insinuating that the majority of their traffic is either going between interchanges and/or is along the southeastern PA portions (I-276 & the lower part of the NE Extension/I-476).  The latter wouldn't surprise me given that I-276 essentially does double-duty (local & through traffic) due to absence of the once-proposed 12-Mile Loop Expressway.  Had such been built; it would've operated similar to I-295 with respect to the NJ Turnpike.

I-276 could do that if the interchange spacing wasn't so wide.  Five segments, 32 miles, average spacing of 6.4 miles, too wide for an metropolitan beltway.  If that was 2.5 or 3 mile spacing, it could do the whole job, although part might need 8 lanes.
Obviously, I-276 wasn't originally designed to be part of a metropolitan beltway.  It just became such over time.  It was widened to 6-lanes during the late 1980s as a result of increased demand and compensation, of sorts, for not building a parallel free highway (the fore-mentioned 12-Mile Loop Expressway).

As far as interchange spacing is concerned; there are plans to add another E-ZPass Only or AET interchange somewhere between the Norristown & Valley Forge (I-76 East) interchanges (which are roughly 7 miles apart).  Then, of course, the I-95 connection and US 13 interchange are only 2 miles apart.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 17, 2019, 03:18:37 PM
I-276 could do that if the interchange spacing wasn't so wide.  Five segments, 32 miles, average spacing of 6.4 miles, too wide for an metropolitan beltway.  If that was 2.5 or 3 mile spacing, it could do the whole job, although part might need 8 lanes.
Obviously, I-276 wasn't originally designed to be part of a metropolitan beltway.  It just became such over time.  It was widened to 6-lanes during the late 1980s as a result of increased demand and compensation, of sorts, for not building a parallel free highway (the fore-mentioned 12-Mile Loop Expressway).
As far as interchange spacing is concerned; there are plans to add another E-ZPass Only or AET interchange somewhere between the Norristown & Valley Forge (I-76 East) interchanges (which are roughly 7 miles apart).  Then, of course, the I-95 connection and US 13 interchange are only 2 miles apart.
I agree, it was built as a long-distance turnpike, at a time that the concept of a metropolitan beltway was in its infancy.  They can always add more local interchanges.

The Lafayette Street interchange has already been preliminarily designed, and will be a nice new local access point.
https://www.montcopa.org/DocumentCenter/View/13373/Project-Location-within-Norristown-and-Plymouth?bidId=
https://www.montcopa.org/1074/Maps-Photos
https://www.patpconstruction.com/lafayettestreet/default.aspx

The I-95 connection in the first phase handles I-95 thru traffic only.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2019, 03:52:58 PM
The I-95 connection in the first phase handles I-95 thru traffic only.
I'm well aware of that.  However, such is not to say that one can use the through-I-95 northbound ramp and then exit off at US 13.  Conversely, one can get still get on the Turnpike at US 13 and veer off such following through-I-95 southbound.  So, one is still technically on the PA Turnpike for a short distance between the connection and US 13.

Shortly after those ramps opened; I indeed did a couple of test runs through that stretch... especially since there's no toll charged for that short run.  Those who attended last September's Golden Spike Meet did such as well... but more slowly/cautiously due to the new ramps not being officially opened yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 17, 2019, 09:28:54 PM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2019, 10:02:26 PM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm

I guess PTC ain't doing something right then! lol  That's an extremely high fare for a cashless toll.  I wonder what their collection rates are.  I have always felt that with a system like the PA Turnpike where you have both a ticket toll system and a pay-by-plate system, many people are going to think they already paid the toll and will ignore the notice.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on July 18, 2019, 09:09:40 AM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm

Maybe SNPJ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.N.P.J.,_Pennsylvania) should set up their own little service plaza for the new shunpikers and get some more revenue for its 19 residents.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 18, 2019, 09:25:32 AM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm

Quote from: PA Turnpike Media & Public Relations News Release
The toll for a two-axle passenger vehicle at Gateway, for example, will increase Oct. 27 from $7.90 to $12.20. The new TOLL BY PLATE rates reflect associated invoice-processing and collections costs. The E-ZPass rate at Gateway will increase to $5.50 to $5.90. Charts showing new rates at the three cashless locations can be found here. (No increases will be applied at these locations in January 2020.)
That increase from the old cash rate to the new Toll-By-Plate (TBP) rate IMHO is way too extreme.  Not even the Delaware River Bridge (I-95) TBP rate (2020 toll of $7.70) is that high.  One getting on the NJ side at US 130/Florence and either exiting at US 13 or staying on I-95 south pays a total of $10.70 ($3.00 NJTP + the above $7.70). 

Something's very wrong there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on July 18, 2019, 02:07:59 PM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm

Quote from: PA Turnpike Media & Public Relations News Release
The toll for a two-axle passenger vehicle at Gateway, for example, will increase Oct. 27 from $7.90 to $12.20. The new TOLL BY PLATE rates reflect associated invoice-processing and collections costs. The E-ZPass rate at Gateway will increase to $5.50 to $5.90. Charts showing new rates at the three cashless locations can be found here. (No increases will be applied at these locations in January 2020.)
That increase from the old cash rate to the new Toll-By-Plate (TBP) rate IMHO is way too extreme.  Not even the Delaware River Bridge (I-95) TBP rate (2020 toll of $7.70) is that high.  One getting on the NJ side at US 130/Florence and either exiting at US 13 or staying on I-95 south pays a total of $10.70 ($3.00 NJTP + the above $7.70). 

Something's very wrong there.
That thing is PTC's finances.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 18, 2019, 02:10:23 PM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm

Quote from: PA Turnpike Media & Public Relations News Release
The toll for a two-axle passenger vehicle at Gateway, for example, will increase Oct. 27 from $7.90 to $12.20. The new TOLL BY PLATE rates reflect associated invoice-processing and collections costs. The E-ZPass rate at Gateway will increase to $5.50 to $5.90. Charts showing new rates at the three cashless locations can be found here. (No increases will be applied at these locations in January 2020.)
That increase from the old cash rate to the new Toll-By-Plate (TBP) rate IMHO is way too extreme.  Not even the Delaware River Bridge (I-95) TBP rate (2020 toll of $7.70) is that high.  One getting on the NJ side at US 130/Florence and either exiting at US 13 or staying on I-95 south pays a total of $10.70 ($3.00 NJTP + the above $7.70). 

Something's very wrong there.
That thing is PTC's finances.
No, it's Act 44.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 18, 2019, 02:41:37 PM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm

Quote from: PA Turnpike Media & Public Relations News Release
The toll for a two-axle passenger vehicle at Gateway, for example, will increase Oct. 27 from $7.90 to $12.20. The new TOLL BY PLATE rates reflect associated invoice-processing and collections costs. The E-ZPass rate at Gateway will increase to $5.50 to $5.90. Charts showing new rates at the three cashless locations can be found here. (No increases will be applied at these locations in January 2020.)
That increase from the old cash rate to the new Toll-By-Plate (TBP) rate IMHO is way too extreme.  Not even the Delaware River Bridge (I-95) TBP rate (2020 toll of $7.70) is that high.  One getting on the NJ side at US 130/Florence and either exiting at US 13 or staying on I-95 south pays a total of $10.70 ($3.00 NJTP + the above $7.70). 

Something's very wrong there.
That thing is PTC's finances.
No, it's Act 44.
Per the above-article, this is one of the facilities that will not get an increase this coming January.  Can't say that such won't be immune for an increase come 2021.

Sorry, Act 44 or no Act 44, PTC's finances or not; going from $7.90 to $12.20 is roughly over a 54% increase.  Way too excessive.  In contrast, the E-ZPass increase is only about a 7% increase.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on July 18, 2019, 10:02:54 PM
If such is indeed true; then the PTC seems to be insinuating that the majority of their traffic is either going between interchanges and/or is along the southeastern PA portions (I-276 & the lower part of the NE Extension/I-476).  The latter wouldn't surprise me given that I-276 essentially does double-duty (local & through traffic) due to absence of the once-proposed 12-Mile Loop Expressway.  Had such been built; it would've operated similar to I-295 with respect to the NJ Turnpike.

I-276 could do that if the interchange spacing wasn't so wide.  Five segments, 32 miles, average spacing of 6.4 miles, too wide for an metropolitan beltway.  If that was 2.5 or 3 mile spacing, it could do the whole job, although part might need 8 lanes.
Apparently in the early '70s there was a plan to widen that segment to 8-10 lanes using a NJTP-esque setup with inner and outer lanes (for cars only and mixed traffic, respectively) until the oil crisis put an end to that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on July 18, 2019, 10:14:30 PM
The original 160 miles of the Turnpike was planned to be rebuilt (http://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter10) with 8 to 10 lanes comprised of dual car and truck ROWs in both directions, and even feature holographic signage.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on July 18, 2019, 10:24:58 PM
The original 160 miles of the Turnpike was planned to be rebuilt (http://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter10) with 8 to 10 lanes comprised of dual car and truck ROWs in both directions, and even feature holographic signage.
The completion of I-80 and I-78 largely postponed the need to widen the Turnpike until beyond 2000. 

The segment between the NE Extension and US-1 did need the widening projects that were completed in 1988.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on July 19, 2019, 11:09:03 PM
The original 160 miles of the Turnpike was planned to be rebuilt (http://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter10) with 8 to 10 lanes comprised of dual car and truck ROWs in both directions, and even feature holographic signage.

I'm quite curious how holographic road signs would have worked.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 19, 2019, 11:55:31 PM
It gets better. Apparently the cost of processing cashless tolls is so high that the Gateway toll will go to $12 for those without E-ZPass in October, double the E-ZPass rate.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20190717112134.htm

Quote from: PA Turnpike Media & Public Relations News Release
The toll for a two-axle passenger vehicle at Gateway, for example, will increase Oct. 27 from $7.90 to $12.20. The new TOLL BY PLATE rates reflect associated invoice-processing and collections costs. The E-ZPass rate at Gateway will increase to $5.50 to $5.90. Charts showing new rates at the three cashless locations can be found here. (No increases will be applied at these locations in January 2020.)
That increase from the old cash rate to the new Toll-By-Plate (TBP) rate IMHO is way too extreme.  Not even the Delaware River Bridge (I-95) TBP rate (2020 toll of $7.70) is that high.  One getting on the NJ side at US 130/Florence and either exiting at US 13 or staying on I-95 south pays a total of $10.70 ($3.00 NJTP + the above $7.70). 

Something's very wrong there.
That thing is PTC's finances.
No, it's Act 44.
Per the above-article, this is one of the facilities that will not get an increase this coming January.  Can't say that such won't be immune for an increase come 2021.

Sorry, Act 44 or no Act 44, PTC's finances or not; going from $7.90 to $12.20 is roughly over a 54% increase.  Way too excessive.  In contrast, the E-ZPass increase is only about a 7% increase.

Those increases will continue for decades into the future.  Remember that Act 44 (and later Act 89) require the PTC to come up with $450 million every year to be given to PennDOT for use as transit subsidies. 

That $450 million is money that they PTC does not have, so they go to the bond markets and issue new debt secured by PTC toll revenues.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 20, 2019, 12:39:39 PM
Seems to me like they can't afford their "complete Turnpike reconstruction" project then, or to build new roads in Pittsburg.  Perhaps they could limit toll increases if they switched their program to preservation mode, like NYSDOT has done.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2019, 03:55:02 PM
Seems to me like they can't afford their "complete Turnpike reconstruction" project then, or to build new roads in Pittsburg.  Perhaps they could limit toll increases if they switched their program to preservation mode, like NYSDOT has done.

Or maybe stop worrying about areas that see occasional congestion, and concentrate on areas that see daily congestion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 21, 2019, 08:41:56 PM
That too.  Act 44 and Act 89 may be big travesties that should never have happened, but the PTC is basically pretending like nothing is wrong, oblivious to the fact that the constant way above inflation toll increases are NOT sustainable.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 22, 2019, 12:09:09 PM
That too.  Act 44 and Act 89 may be big travesties that should never have happened, but the PTC is basically pretending like nothing is wrong, oblivious to the fact that the constant way above inflation toll increases are NOT sustainable.

I think PTC is aware of the issue, but they're caught with legislative mandates. The legislature tells them to provide funding under Act 44. It tells them they are to build the Mon-Fayette and Southern Beltway. They have lots of old infrastructure at the end of its service life. They have to spend, and they have been looking at cost savings where possible with trying to reduce the Act 44 payments and implement AET to reduce collection costs.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 22, 2019, 01:09:06 PM
They have to spend, and they have been looking at cost savings where possible with trying to reduce the Act 44 payments and implement AET to reduce collection costs.
That's just it.  The fore-mentioned planned toll increase for the Western Gateway will be 54% for non-E-ZPass users once AET becomes live at that plaza.  Such seems to be sending the opposite message.

And before one says, "Oh, just sign up for E-ZPass."; one needs to keep in mind that the Turnpike carries traffic from many other states... including those that either don't participate in an E-ZPass program or their own electronic tolling system is not compatible w/E-ZPass (example: Florida's Sun-Pass).  Also, there are many once-a-year travelers that don't want to pony up the initial $20 minimum to start up an account and/or pay the annual fee of $3 (PTC-issued unit).

There's also the issue with rental cars in that not every E-ZPass usage agreements within companies are created equal.  While most rental agencies have some type of transponder available for use; one needs to check to see if their flat rate is en lieu of any accrued toll charges (I had a rental a while ago that did such) or on top of those charges.

Bottom line & contrary to popular belief, there are still many out drivers/vehicles out there that don't have E-ZPass for whatever reason.  Charging such users a little more is one thing but hosing them completely is a whole other matter.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2019, 01:14:58 PM
That too.  Act 44 and Act 89 may be big travesties that should never have happened, but the PTC is basically pretending like nothing is wrong, oblivious to the fact that the constant way above inflation toll increases are NOT sustainable.

I think PTC is aware of the issue, but they're caught with legislative mandates. The legislature tells them to provide funding under Act 44. It tells them they are to build the Mon-Fayette and Southern Beltway. They have lots of old infrastructure at the end of its service life. They have to spend, and they have been looking at cost savings where possible with trying to reduce the Act 44 payments and implement AET to reduce collection costs.


Does that mandate come with a time the legislature wants those freeways done by?  If not, I'd think that they could be treated no differently than the dozens of legislated freeways/expressways up here in NY that have never been built.  And maybe they could look at whether they really NEED a full reconstruction/widening everywhere or if a resurfacing would work.  Sure, it sounds cool to say you're doing a total rebuild of the original Turnpike, but money is very tight.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on July 22, 2019, 04:19:58 PM
They have to spend, and they have been looking at cost savings where possible with trying to reduce the Act 44 payments and implement AET to reduce collection costs.
That's just it.  The fore-mentioned planned toll increase for the Western Gateway will be 54% for non-E-ZPass users once AET becomes live at that plaza.  Such seems to be sending the opposite message.

And before one says, "Oh, just sign up for E-ZPass."; one needs to keep in mind that the Turnpike carries traffic from many other states... including those that either don't participate in an E-ZPass program or their own electronic tolling system is not compatible w/E-ZPass (example: Florida's Sun-Pass).  Also, there are many once-a-year travelers that don't want to pony up the initial $20 minimum to start up an account and/or pay the annual fee of $3 (PTC-issued unit).

There's also the issue with rental cars in that not every E-ZPass usage agreements within companies are created equal.  While most rental agencies have some type of transponder available for use; one needs to check to see if their flat rate is en lieu of any accrued toll charges (I had a rental a while ago that did such) or on top of those charges.

Bottom line & contrary to popular belief, there are still many out drivers/vehicles out there that don't have E-ZPass for whatever reason.  Charging such users a little more is one thing but hosing them completely is a whole other matter.
Not to bring up something unrelated (and I am not encouraging the CT toll discussion here), but it wasn't until I moved out of CT 3 years ago (today!) that I actually got E-ZPass.  I very rarely had to use toll roads up there, since there are no toll roads in Connecticut (right now), so I never had a significant enough use for it until I moved to Delaware.  You could probably assume a lot of people in Connecticut are the same (I'm not sure of the stats) and I'm sure there are other reasonably large areas of the northeast that don't worry much about tolls, so there's just one group that doesn't have E-ZPass in the area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 23, 2019, 09:38:14 AM
Not to bring up something unrelated (and I am not encouraging the CT toll discussion here), but it wasn't until I moved out of CT 3 years ago (today!) that I actually got E-ZPass.  I very rarely had to use toll roads up there, since there are no toll roads in Connecticut (right now), so I never had a significant enough use for it until I moved to Delaware.  You could probably assume a lot of people in Connecticut are the same (I'm not sure of the stats) and I'm sure there are other reasonably large areas of the northeast that don't worry much about tolls, so there's just one group that doesn't have E-ZPass in the area.
While true, it's probably a reasonable assumption that most CT residents that have E-ZPass are from either the southwestern part of the state (where many commute to the greater NYC area) or the northern or northeastern part of the state where it borders MA (should they use I-90/Mass Pike).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on July 23, 2019, 09:42:09 AM
So for a non E-Z Pass driver that does not know in advance what the tolls will be, a trip from Youngstown to Pittsburgh via I-76 & I-376 is going to cost you $15.00+ ???

I'd much rather take the extra time and mileage to use I-80 to I-79, or shunpike via OH 14/PA 51 to I-376 -- Even with EZ Pass!!!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 29, 2019, 09:45:22 PM
While true, it's probably a reasonable assumption that most CT residents that have E-ZPass are from either the southwestern part of the state (where many commute to the greater NYC area) or the northern or northeastern part of the state where it borders MA (should they use I-90/Mass Pike).

A few years ago, the gift shops in the service plazas on the Connecticut Turnpike sold E-ZPass transponders, if memory serves they were MTA Bridge and Tunnel units (and maybe they still do  -  I did not check the last time I drove it), even though the Turnpike has been detolled since the 1980's.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 01, 2019, 11:39:05 PM
The PATP website states that the reconstruction of the  mainline between the Warrendale barrier and the Cranberry exit was to start this past spring.  Any news?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 02, 2019, 06:56:20 AM
I don't think that's happening this year.  I drive over that stretch on I-79 every work day, and it looks like they've actually done some resurfacing (at least of the EB lanes so far) - it could be prepratory - though they haven't paved the shoulder, which would be used to shift traffic.  I don't see any other indications of a major rebuild.

Also, they ARE doing the Freedom Road bridge replacement (and widening (of Freedom Rd)) now, and they're still in the final stage of the widening from PA-8 to halfway-to-PA-28.  I imagine they won't kick off Cranberry-Warrendale reconstruction till those are done.

With all their money woes, I guess it's hard to budget someone to keep some of their project websites up to date.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 04, 2019, 08:18:53 AM
PA Turnpike project websites are awful for inconsistency and stale information. Some are done in-house, some are contracted out, but they're all haphazard. Some have good diagrams and plans, others have nothing, for example. You can't be sure you're even going to find projected start and completion dates years decades eras epochs. A site will be posted and then sit for years without being touched.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on September 01, 2019, 05:27:41 PM
Some minor updates done on the PATP website. There are 2 accelerated bridge construction closures coming up in the next month or so. One is next weekend on the NE extension near MM59. No idea if this will involve a 6-lane bridge deck or not.

The other will be on the mainline, over 2 weekends later this month and early next. It's the bridge at apx MM238 in Cumberland County that crosses over a railroad track. According to the site, they're doing eastbound one weekend, and westbound the next. I saw one of the nearly finished structures on the south side of the highway, and it appears that it will accommodate 3 lanes plus full inner and outer shoulders. I imagine that there is an identical structure for the westbound lanes, but I didn't see it personally as my return trip was by another route.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 06, 2019, 02:17:41 PM
Also, I noticed the PTC is installing a new system for two-way operations at the Tuscarora Tunnel.  Starting about a mile before the tunnel, they have installed concrete barrier on the left side with automated swinging barriers.  They are orange semi-circle barriers with black-on-orange chevron symbols.  I'm guessing the purpose is to keep traffic from being in the lane that will handle oncoming traffic inside the tunnel.

Just noticed this in action on one of the webcams.  Kind of neat they can automatically close a lane.

(https://i.ibb.co/K7JYQSD/Annotation-2019-06-18-130714.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
upload (https://imgbb.com/)

So turns out there is a big reason they installed this automatic lane closure system at that tunnel.  According to the PTC e-mail newsletter, the Tuscarora Tunnel is about to undergo a four-year renovation project that will require two-way traffic during most of the week.  They are warning of 30-60 minute delays.

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/tra_launch_tuscarora_tunnel_rehab_september2019.aspx?goal=0_be7dda6bfd-b4f241202a-237605981

Quote
This fall, the PTC will launch a four-year, $109 million project to improve and modernize the Tuscarora Tunnel, located on Interstate 76 at mileposts 186-187 between the Fort Littleton and Willow Hill interchanges on the Huntingdon County/Franklin County line.

Some of the major tasks to be completed will entail a nearly eight-month closure of the eastbound tube starting in mid-November. It will be closed Sunday nights at 10 p.m. through Fridays at noon, with all vehicles transitioned to two-way traffic in the westbound tube. All traffic in both directions will merge into one lane approaching the tunnel, with a 40 mph work-zone speed limit. This pattern will continue until Independence Day 2020, with no overweight or over-dimensional (Class-9) vehicles permitted.

During the single-lane, two-way traffic, motorists in this area are cautioned to expect delays of 30 to 60 minutes during peak weekday travel times.

The rehabilitation of the eastbound and the westbound tunnels will include a new ventilation system, new pavement and tunnel lining, new shoulder barriers and walls, a new electronic control and monitoring system, new lighting and improved drainage.

The eastbound tube opened in 1940, and the westbound tube opened in 1968. The two tubes were last renovated in the 1980s.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on September 06, 2019, 02:42:46 PM
This fall, the PTC will launch a four-year, $109 million project to improve and modernize the Tuscarora Tunnel, located on Interstate 76 at mileposts 186-187 between the Fort Littleton and Willow Hill interchanges on the Huntingdon County/Franklin County line.

Have they considered replacing it with a bypass in open cuts, with space for future 6-lane widening?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on October 25, 2019, 07:10:41 AM
Cashless tolling at the Gateway mainline toll plaza and on Turnpike 66 begins on Sunday, toll hikes there and on the tolled part of I-376 included!

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2019/10/24/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-cashless-tolling-Ohio-border-Turnpike-Route-66-bypass/stories/201910230172
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on November 03, 2019, 07:01:25 PM
The Turnpike is going completely cashless by fall 2021.

https://www.abc27.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-plans-to-be-all-cashless-by-fall-2021/ (https://www.abc27.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-plans-to-be-all-cashless-by-fall-2021/)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on November 18, 2019, 09:52:32 PM
It appears that the MP40-48 reconstruction/widening is substantially complete.  I hope the PTC moves on to another mainline project, I think Irwin to 376 needs it more than the Warrendale booths to Cranberry, but we will see.  I am concerned that this will be it for awhile.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on November 19, 2019, 12:08:53 AM
I hope the PTC moves on to another mainline project, I think Irwin to 376 needs it...

That section is in the works. The PTC recently purchased Monroeville’s Bel-Aire Community Pool (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2019/11/11/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Monroveille-Bel-Aire-pool-widening-project/stories/201911070117) for the upcoming widening and reconstruction between Monroeville and Irwin.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 20, 2019, 06:14:19 PM
It appears that the MP40-48 reconstruction/widening is substantially complete.  I hope the PTC moves on to another mainline project, I think Irwin to 376 needs it more than the Warrendale booths to Cranberry, but we will see.  I am concerned that this will be it for awhile.

It might be less of a while if the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission was not required  by Acts 44 and 89 to turn over to PennDOT $450 million every year to be then given to transit operators around the state, starting with SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on November 26, 2019, 11:59:28 PM
https://www.montcopa.org/1758/Draft-Maps

PA Turnpike
Proposed Interchange Designs

Valley Forge Interchange Modernization
Potential Henderson Road Interchange
Potential Lafayette/Ridge Interchange
Fort Washington (PA 309) Interchange Modernization
Completion of Virginia Drive Interchange
Willow Grove (US 611) Interchange Modernization
Potential Welsh Road (PA 63) Interchange
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on November 27, 2019, 12:07:31 AM
Wow....do they suck!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on November 27, 2019, 04:46:12 AM
Has Montgomery County and/or the PTC made more noise about those designs recently, or did you just dig those up again on the county's site? I saw those a while ago and haven't heard much since. The designs don't seem to have changed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 27, 2019, 06:08:36 AM
https://www.montcopa.org/1758/Draft-Maps

PA Turnpike
Proposed Interchange Designs

Valley Forge Interchange Modernization
Potential Henderson Road Interchange
Potential Lafayette/Ridge Interchange
Fort Washington (PA 309) Interchange Modernization
Completion of Virginia Drive Interchange
Willow Grove (US 611) Interchange Modernization
Potential Welsh Road (PA 63) Interchange

I only looked at the Willow Grove Interchange, but wow.  That interchange between the toll plaza and 611 is tight already.  This engineering company thinks that making tighter curves mere feet from the toll plaza, an exit ramp on the curve, and a tighter radii on the loops is a good idea?  I know that it's tough to work within the confines of the existing available area, along with trying to wedge in new bridges and ramps while maintaining traffic on the old infrastructure, but this is just going to create more problems rather than provide a solution.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 27, 2019, 08:14:53 AM
https://www.montcopa.org/1758/Draft-Maps

PA Turnpike
Proposed Interchange Designs

Valley Forge Interchange Modernization
Potential Henderson Road Interchange
Potential Lafayette/Ridge Interchange
Fort Washington (PA 309) Interchange Modernization
Completion of Virginia Drive Interchange
Willow Grove (US 611) Interchange Modernization
Potential Welsh Road (PA 63) Interchange

I only looked at the Willow Grove Interchange, but wow.  That interchange between the toll plaza and 611 is tight already.  This engineering company thinks that making tighter curves mere feet from the toll plaza, an exit ramp on the curve, and a tighter radii on the loops is a good idea?  I know that it's tough to work within the confines of the existing available area, along with trying to wedge in new bridges and ramps while maintaining traffic on the old infrastructure, but this is just going to create more problems rather than provide a solution.

I hope these interchange concepts get redesigned as part of the plan to go AET.  Honestly the Willow Grove one makes the most sense.  (I would have thought that Montgomery County at least would remember that US 611 was decommissioned almost 50 years ago.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on November 27, 2019, 08:49:12 AM
Has Montgomery County and/or the PTC made more noise about those designs recently, or did you just dig those up again on the county's site? I saw those a while ago and haven't heard much since. The designs don't seem to have changed.
I think they are from 2015, so other than Lafayette Street I don't think there is much recent activity.
https://www.patpconstruction.com/lafayettestreet/default.aspx

I have long lamented the fact that there is such wide interchange spacing on a section of the Turnpike that serves as a northern beltline for the Philadelphia area, an average of 8 mile spacing.

Anything they can do to add more interchanges would be a real help for local traffic access, so it is good to see that some preliminary designs are being derived.

Valley Forge is a real chokepoint with all local traffic to have to pass thru a segment of I-76, so that local scheme would be a real help; it is tight but it looks feasible.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on November 27, 2019, 11:12:48 AM
I hope these interchange concepts get redesigned as part of the plan to go AET.

They are. All the plans are marked as such.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2019, 11:39:09 AM
Are they still planning to extend State Highway 43 northward from its present terminus in 2021?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 27, 2019, 11:53:40 AM
That is the plan, but instead it will head towards Monroeville only.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on November 27, 2019, 08:39:46 PM
That is the plan, but instead it will head towards Monroeville only.

Wasn't the original plan the US 30/PA 8 interchange?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on November 27, 2019, 08:47:32 PM


Wasn't the original plan the US 30/PA 8 interchange?

It was to originally split near Duquesne, with 43 following the Monongahela to Pittsburgh and 576 continuing northeast to Monroeville. 

There were other expressways planed over the years that would have crossed or terminated at the Parkway, but none at the Ardmore Boulevard interchange.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 02, 2019, 09:12:50 AM
I hope these interchange concepts get redesigned as part of the plan to go AET.
They are. All the plans are marked as such.
Should PTC's AET conversion be done in a similar fashion that MassDOT converted the Mass Pike/I-90 (AET gantries only along the mainline between interchanges); many of those proposed mods to the existing interchanges should be redesigned/configured.  If tolls are no longer charged/collected at the interchanges; such would allow for more streamlined redesigns.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 02, 2019, 05:22:01 PM
I hope these interchange concepts get redesigned as part of the plan to go AET.
They are. All the plans are marked as such.
Should PTC's AET conversion be done in a similar fashion that MassDOT converted the Mass Pike/I-90 (AET gantries only along the mainline between interchanges); many of those proposed mods to the existing interchanges should be redesigned/configured.  If tolls are no longer charged/collected at the interchanges; such would allow for more streamlined redesigns.

I wonder if PTC wants to do that, since for political reasons, they probably want to keep the deficient interchanges at places like Bedford, Somerset, Breezewood, Carlisle, Denver, Allentown, Pocono and Wyoming as they are.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on December 02, 2019, 05:47:09 PM
I wonder if PTC wants to do that, since for political reasons, they probably want to keep the deficient interchanges at places like Bedford, Somerset, Breezewood, Carlisle, Denver, Allentown, Pocono and Wyoming as they are.

A couple of those would be hard to fully fix without major property impacts (notably Bedford), but others (I'm looking at you, Breezewood) would be relatively easy. Allentown at least has a limited-access connection via 22/309.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on December 02, 2019, 06:32:26 PM
I hope these interchange concepts get redesigned as part of the plan to go AET.
They are. All the plans are marked as such.
Should PTC's AET conversion be done in a similar fashion that MassDOT converted the Mass Pike/I-90 (AET gantries only along the mainline between interchanges); many of those proposed mods to the existing interchanges should be redesigned/configured.  If tolls are no longer charged/collected at the interchanges; such would allow for more streamlined redesigns.

I wonder if PTC wants to do that, since for political reasons, they probably want to keep the deficient interchanges at places like Bedford, Somerset, Breezewood, Carlisle, Denver, Allentown, Pocono and Wyoming as they are.

There might be enough space to turn the Pocono one into a SPUI @ PA-940.  Because I'm not sure they'd want to create a whole new interchange with C/D lanes on I-80 just so they can keep the access to PA-940 on I-80.  It's that or they'd have to make the C/D lanes on I-476 and make them free so I-80 can still access PA-940.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 02, 2019, 08:18:56 PM
Isn't Wyoming Valley already slated for replacement as part of the "Scranton Beltway" project?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 03, 2019, 07:31:26 PM
Isn't Wyoming Valley already slated for replacement as part of the "Scranton Beltway" project?

Never clear to me if this was a serious proposal (though it makes some sense, since there's plenty of spare capacity on I-476, as long as the mess at Clark's Summit (I-476 Exit 131) is corrected).

Has it even gone to preliminary engineering?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 03, 2019, 08:11:30 PM
Isn't Wyoming Valley already slated for replacement as part of the "Scranton Beltway" project?

Never clear to me if this was a serious proposal (though it makes some sense, since there's plenty of spare capacity on I-476, as long as the mess at Clark's Summit (I-476 Exit 131) is corrected).

Has it even go to preliminary engineering?

Yes, it is serious and moving forward.

The website for it is here:  https://www.patpconstruction.com/scrantonbeltway/default.aspx .
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on December 04, 2019, 11:15:38 AM
Isn't Wyoming Valley already slated for replacement as part of the "Scranton Beltway" project?

Never clear to me if this was a serious proposal (though it makes some sense, since there's plenty of spare capacity on I-476, as long as the mess at Clark's Summit (I-476 Exit 131) is corrected).

Has it even go to preliminary engineering?

Yes, it is serious and moving forward.

The website for it is here:  https://www.patpconstruction.com/scrantonbeltway/default.aspx .
Eh..."developing plans" can be a far cry from actually moving forward.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2019, 11:46:56 AM
Isn't Wyoming Valley already slated for replacement as part of the "Scranton Beltway" project?

Never clear to me if this was a serious proposal (though it makes some sense, since there's plenty of spare capacity on I-476, as long as the mess at Clark's Summit (I-476 Exit 131) is corrected).

Has it even go to preliminary engineering?

Yes, it is serious and moving forward.

The website for it is here:  https://www.patpconstruction.com/scrantonbeltway/default.aspx .
Eh..."developing plans" can be a far cry from actually moving forward.

The next tab there: https://www.patpconstruction.com/scrantonbeltway/detail.aspx , is probably more important, which shows construction won't begin until 2022.

But the most important link and document on the PTC website is the actual Capital Plan, which shows the budget for the upcoming 10 years.  The current plan, https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/FY2020_Capital_Plan.pdf , reveals on Page 6 that funding for this project is continuing, and does confirm that prelim engineering is underway, and based on the costs the project is scheduled to begin in FY 2023, which could mean Calendar Year 2022 (I think their FY is July - June).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 04, 2019, 04:57:58 PM
Eh..."developing plans" can be a far cry from actually moving forward.
The next tab there: https://www.patpconstruction.com/scrantonbeltway/detail.aspx , is probably more important, which shows construction won't begin until 2022.
But the most important link and document on the PTC website is the actual Capital Plan, which shows the budget for the upcoming 10 years.  The current plan, https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/FY2020_Capital_Plan.pdf , reveals on Page 6 that funding for this project is continuing, and does confirm that prelim engineering is underway, and based on the costs the project is scheduled to begin in FY 2023, which could mean Calendar Year 2022 (I think their FY is July - June).
It would be nice to see cost estimates, but they might not be quite there yet --

Preliminary Engineering: Spring 2019 - Fall 2020
Open House Plans Display - Fall 2020
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 04, 2019, 07:41:17 PM
Thanks for posting the 10 year plan link.  A lot of disappointment  there, but some curious moves:  The Cranberry to Warrendale  barrier total reconstruction will start FY2020, but rather than resume many delayed sections, there is a huge line item over many years for the mainline 99-110 work, which I thought was done about 20 years ago.  Could this involve additional lanes?  Also, about 6 miles of work from the bottom of the hill east of the Allegheny  Tunnel towards Bedford is included, but it appears to be mostly ROW from Irwin to 28.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: BigRedDog on December 05, 2019, 02:42:23 AM
...there is a huge line item over many years for the mainline 99-110 work, which I thought was done about 20 years ago.  Could this involve additional lanes? ...

FWIW, there has been a lot of tree clearing in the area in that last half year, particularly on the EB side.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 05, 2019, 05:59:57 AM
Eh..."developing plans" can be a far cry from actually moving forward.
The next tab there: https://www.patpconstruction.com/scrantonbeltway/detail.aspx , is probably more important, which shows construction won't begin until 2022.
But the most important link and document on the PTC website is the actual Capital Plan, which shows the budget for the upcoming 10 years.  The current plan, https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/FY2020_Capital_Plan.pdf , reveals on Page 6 that funding for this project is continuing, and does confirm that prelim engineering is underway, and based on the costs the project is scheduled to begin in FY 2023, which could mean Calendar Year 2022 (I think their FY is July - June).
It would be nice to see cost estimates, but they might not be quite there yet --

Preliminary Engineering: Spring 2019 - Fall 2020
Open House Plans Display - Fall 2020

What do you mean you would like to see cost estimates?  That Capital Plan link contains the cost estimates for every year for every project listed.  That's literally what a Capital Plan is!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 13, 2019, 03:42:16 PM
The Act 44 lawsuit has been appealed to the Supreme Court:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2019/12/12/Truckers-turn-to-U-S-Supreme-Court-over-Turnpike-toll-diversion/stories/201912120135
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2019, 07:44:32 PM
The Act 44 lawsuit has been appealed to the Supreme Court:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2019/12/12/Truckers-turn-to-U-S-Supreme-Court-over-Turnpike-toll-diversion/stories/201912120135

I would be surprised if the Supreme Court heard it, and would be even more surprised if they overturn it.

And overturning it could have severe ramifications. What if I applied that to every product I purchase? What benefit am I getting if a company charges more than necessary with the extra money going towards their annual holiday party or bonuses? Does their president flying first class benefit me when he could've done a conference call?

I haven't foreseen these truckers winning a lawsuit yet, and they're continuing to throw money out the window with these lawsuits.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on December 13, 2019, 07:55:03 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 13, 2019, 08:46:10 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.
The Act 44 lawsuit has been appealed to the Supreme Court:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2019/12/12/Truckers-turn-to-U-S-Supreme-Court-over-Turnpike-toll-diversion/stories/201912120135

I would be surprised if the Supreme Court heard it, and would be even more surprised if they overturn it.

And overturning it could have severe ramifications. What if I applied that to every product I purchase? What benefit am I getting if a company charges more than necessary with the extra money going towards their annual holiday party or bonuses? Does their president flying first class benefit me when he could've done a conference call?

I haven't foreseen these tuckers winning a lawsuit yet, and they're continuing to throw money out the window with these lawsuits.

I agree with you both...the truckers have a better chance of seeing relief through legislative action, which might just happen sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on December 13, 2019, 08:57:09 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 02 Park Ave on December 13, 2019, 09:20:03 PM
All of the bridges and tunnels in the New York City area are.

This could be monumental!  Just think of the GWB toll being rolled back to 50¢.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2019, 10:33:11 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 13, 2019, 11:15:44 PM
Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?
The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.
They do have about a $5.5 billion capital project program in the next 10 years.

That will be a -lot- of widening projects.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 13, 2019, 11:46:30 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

If the truckers and other toll road patrons want to stop abuses of toll collecting powers to keep other taxes low (which is what Act 44 was about and Act 89 is (to some extent) about), then Congress needs to step in by imposing statutory limits on how much debt (on which interest on that debt is exempt from federal taxation) that agencies like PTC can issue for projects that have nothing to do with the toll roads that they operate   

Ideally, there would also be restrictions on how much cash that toll road operators can divert to non-toll road uses (and I do not mean improvements to a "free" highway segment that leads directly to a toll road or toll crossing).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 14, 2019, 10:10:25 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.  IMO the feds should have stepped in and forced DE to finish the plan to remove the tolls.  Same for all the other northeast toll roads, too.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 15, 2019, 01:09:32 AM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.  IMO the feds should have stepped in and forced DE to finish the plan to remove the tolls.  Same for all the other northeast toll roads, too.
I do not support Federal overreach. The state granted those charters and it's a state's right issue.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2019, 09:06:50 AM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.  IMO the feds should have stepped in and forced DE to finish the plan to remove the tolls.  Same for all the other northeast toll roads, too.

If the feds forced toll removal, then to make up the difference to the states the feds will likely have to increase transportation funding, or take from other states. So in the long run it hurts the feds, and being it comes out of our pockets, it hurts us too!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on December 15, 2019, 10:52:44 AM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.  IMO the feds should have stepped in and forced DE to finish the plan to remove the tolls.  Same for all the other northeast toll roads, too.

If the feds forced toll removal, then to make up the difference to the states the feds will likely have to increase transportation funding, or take from other states. So in the long run it hurts the feds, and being it comes out of our pockets, it hurts us too!
All for that rather than live with the historically sketchy finances of public authorities.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 15, 2019, 02:45:06 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.  IMO the feds should have stepped in and forced DE to finish the plan to remove the tolls.  Same for all the other northeast toll roads, too.

If the feds forced toll removal, then to make up the difference to the states the feds will likely have to increase transportation funding, or take from other states. So in the long run it hurts the feds, and being it comes out of our pockets, it hurts us too!
All for that rather than live with the historically sketchy finances of public authorities.

On a cash basis, undoubtedly the most expensive long-distance toll road in the US (say over 50 miles or so) is the PA Turnpike.  However, if my calculations are correct (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), your most expensive ride using a transponder would be if you're using an out-of-state EZ Pass on the West Virginia Turnpike, where you'll pay $0.136 per mile for the privilege.  As of next year the PA Turnpike would only be $0.123 per mile with any state's EZ Pass. (Don't worry, we'll take the lead eventually!)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 15, 2019, 08:59:07 PM
If the feds forced toll removal, then to make up the difference to the states the feds will likely have to increase transportation funding, or take from other states. So in the long run it hurts the feds, and being it comes out of our pockets, it hurts us too!
Go for it.  I'm very much supportive of Eisenhower's vision of a national toll-free network of highways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on December 15, 2019, 09:39:22 PM
Vdeane, in a perfect world I might well agree with you (and the state of California). But in the real world of highways, you can't escape the fact that the toll turnpikes in the Northeast are generally better maintained and provide better services than the toll-free Interstates. The New Jersey Turnpike is probably the best example.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on December 15, 2019, 09:45:49 PM
Vdeane, in a perfect world I might well agree with you (and the state of California). But in the real world of highways, you can't escape the fact that the toll turnpikes in the Northeast are generally better maintained and provide better services than the toll-free Interstates. The New Jersey Turnpike is probably the best example.
Pfft.  Yes, you can escape that fact.  I remember this argument being made ten years ago as the Thruway started taking about themselves as a "premium" service.  I don't see a different level of maintenance between the Thruway and say, I-81 or the Northway.  In fact, there are a whole host of bridges over the Thruway that have had signs of neglect.

Just VMT tax us and forget this ridiculous hodgepodge system of funding.  Besides the obstacle of implementing a VMT tax, the fact that we have these inscrutable public authorities that have become bureaucratic monsters in their own right is repugnant.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 16, 2019, 09:30:30 AM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.
At least for the I-95 toll situation in DE, truckers do have a short & easy option to legally bypass that I-95 toll by using US 40 & MD 213 between DE 896 & MD 279.  Yes, such is a slower route than staying on I-95; but the savings in tolls may be justified.  Note: the northern DE 896 to DE/MD 279 bypass route has a through-truck prohibition imposed on it.

In contrast & depending on origin & destination; it's not always easy to fully-bypass the PA Turnpike  While there is I-80 to the north and I-68/70 to the south & west; such only are beneficial for long-distance through traffic.

But in the real world of highways, you can't escape the fact that the toll turnpikes in the Northeast are generally better maintained and provide better services than the toll-free Interstates. The New Jersey Turnpike is probably the best example.
It's also worth noting that prior to the 2007 collapse of I-35W in Minneapolis; most of the non-earthquake or non-weather-related highway collapses occurred on tolled facilities.  Two examples:

1.  The 1983 collapse of the Mianus River Bridge of the then-tolled CT Turnpike (I-95) due to a failure of two pin and hanger assemblies.  A condition to receive federal funding to replace the collapsed span was that the tolls for that road were to be removed within 2 years (such were).

2.  The 2006 tunnel ceiling collapse of one of the fairly new Big Dig ramp tunnels linking I-90 in Boston.  The I-90 portion, including the Ted Williams Tunnel is a tolled facility even though there was only one toll booth at the westbound tunnel entrance (pre-AET conversion).

Years prior to Act 44, the PA Turnpike has had a reputation for years if not decades of being one of the most expensive toll-road facilities in the nation but in being not in the best condition.

So tolled highways don't always mean better condition highways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 16, 2019, 02:38:20 PM
At least for the I-95 toll situation in DE, truckers do have a short & easy option to legally bypass that I-95 toll by using US 40 & MD 213 between DE 896 & MD 279.  Yes, such is a slower route than staying on I-95; but the savings in tolls may be justified.  Note: the northern DE 896 to DE/MD 279 bypass route has a through-truck prohibition imposed on it.

Considering the toll for regular 5 axle tractor trailers is $9, the hassle of bypassing it really isn't all that worthwhile.  At a loss of time and approximately another gallon of diesel being used, the net savings is maybe $6.  A few truckers make this detour, but by in large it's easier just to stay on the highway.

Quote
...So tolled highways don't always mean better condition highways.

I was on the NJ Turnpike Friday for the first time in a long time.  especially between Interchanges 4 and 6, I was horribly surprised at the condition of the pavement in that stretch.  It was very patched with pothole conditions on the skip lines within the asphalt joints, especially between the right and center lanes.  This would've never been heard of on the Turnpike 10 or 20 years ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on December 16, 2019, 04:27:21 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.
At least for the I-95 toll situation in DE, truckers do have a short & easy option to legally bypass that I-95 toll by using US 40 & MD 213 between DE 896 & MD 279.  Yes, such is a slower route than staying on I-95; but the savings in tolls may be justified.  Note: the northern DE 896 to DE/MD 279 bypass route has a through-truck prohibition imposed on it.

In contrast & depending on origin & destination; it's not always easy to fully-bypass the PA Turnpike  While there is I-80 to the north and I-68/70 to the south & west; such only are beneficial for long-distance through traffic.

But in the real world of highways, you can't escape the fact that the toll turnpikes in the Northeast are generally better maintained and provide better services than the toll-free Interstates. The New Jersey Turnpike is probably the best example.
It's also worth noting that prior to the 2007 collapse of I-35W in Minneapolis; most of the non-earthquake or non-weather-related highway collapses occurred on tolled facilities.  Two examples:

1.  The 1983 collapse of the Mianus River Bridge of the then-tolled CT Turnpike (I-95) due to a failure of two pin and hanger assemblies.  A condition to receive federal funding to replace the collapsed span was that the tolls for that road were to be removed within 2 years (such were).

2.  The 2006 tunnel ceiling collapse of one of the fairly new Big Dig ramp tunnels linking I-90 in Boston.  The I-90 portion, including the Ted Williams Tunnel is a tolled facility even though there was only one toll booth at the westbound tunnel entrance (pre-AET conversion).

Years prior to Act 44, the PA Turnpike has had a reputation for years if not decades of being one of the most expensive toll-road facilities in the nation but in being not in the best condition.

So tolled highways don't always mean better condition highways.

And didn't the Schoharie Bridge on the Thruway collapse sometime in the late '80s?  (Looking at you, Rothman)

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on December 16, 2019, 08:10:20 PM
J&N, I'm impressed by your observation that ten or twenty years ago the NJTA would not have allowed the pavement to deteriorate so badly on the Turnpike. What would you attribute this change to nowadays? Is the Turnpike Authority getting sloppy or just tighter with spending or both?

Ixnay, you are correct about the Schoharie Bridge disaster in 1987. And the other posters do make valid points about all of the infrastructure failures that happened on toll roads in the Northeast. All were under the control of toll authorities except possibly the Connecticut Tpk. I'm not sure what agency operated that road during the tolled era.

Despite those serious failures, the toll roads still have better motorist services than toll-free highways. That includes well equipped service areas you can access without leaving the highway and more resources to assist you with a car breakdown. NY Thruway Authority is particularly efficient in that regard. I imagine the NJTA is too. And Penn. Turnpike for years had emergency call boxes at frequent intervals. Don't know if they still do. So you see my point about the toll roads.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 16, 2019, 09:03:41 PM
Those service areas aren't because the roads are collecting tolls, though.  They're because they were grandfathered in when Congress banned service areas on the interstates.  CT still has them and hasn't collected tolls in decades.  Same for I-95/MA 128 and the service areas around NYC.  Canada, which doesn't have this prohibition, also has service areas on some free roads.  Finally, one of Cuomo's recent fights with FHWA was about what could be interpreted as the establishment of three new service areas on free interstates.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on December 16, 2019, 09:31:20 PM
I agree with J&N that the Supreme Court may well decline to hear the case. It's not a matter of real national importance where a precedent or national standard needs to be established. It's a local issue at least local to the Northeast anyway.

Are any of the other long distance toll roads as much of a ripoff as the PA Turnpike?

ixnay?

The PA Turnpike will roughly be about 18 cents per mile.

On a per mile basis, Delaware's I-95 is $4 for 11 miles, or 36.3 cents per mile.
I'd hardly call I-95 in DE a long-distance toll road.  It's more of a border toll.  It is a ripoff , though.
At least for the I-95 toll situation in DE, truckers do have a short & easy option to legally bypass that I-95 toll by using US 40 & MD 213 between DE 896 & MD 279.  Yes, such is a slower route than staying on I-95; but the savings in tolls may be justified.  Note: the northern DE 896 to DE/MD 279 bypass route has a through-truck prohibition imposed on it.

In contrast & depending on origin & destination; it's not always easy to fully-bypass the PA Turnpike  While there is I-80 to the north and I-68/70 to the south & west; such only are beneficial for long-distance through traffic.

But in the real world of highways, you can't escape the fact that the toll turnpikes in the Northeast are generally better maintained and provide better services than the toll-free Interstates. The New Jersey Turnpike is probably the best example.
It's also worth noting that prior to the 2007 collapse of I-35W in Minneapolis; most of the non-earthquake or non-weather-related highway collapses occurred on tolled facilities.  Two examples:

1.  The 1983 collapse of the Mianus River Bridge of the then-tolled CT Turnpike (I-95) due to a failure of two pin and hanger assemblies.  A condition to receive federal funding to replace the collapsed span was that the tolls for that road were to be removed within 2 years (such were).

2.  The 2006 tunnel ceiling collapse of one of the fairly new Big Dig ramp tunnels linking I-90 in Boston.  The I-90 portion, including the Ted Williams Tunnel is a tolled facility even though there was only one toll booth at the westbound tunnel entrance (pre-AET conversion).

Years prior to Act 44, the PA Turnpike has had a reputation for years if not decades of being one of the most expensive toll-road facilities in the nation but in being not in the best condition.

So tolled highways don't always mean better condition highways.

And didn't the Schoharie Bridge on the Thruway collapse sometime in the late '80s?  (Looking at you, Rothman)

ixnay
Ayup.  Contractor didn't have a good enough foundation for the piers and they got scoured out by the river.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 17, 2019, 08:37:05 AM
... the toll roads still have better motorist services than toll-free highways. That includes well equipped service areas you can access without leaving the highway and more resources to assist you with a car breakdown. NY Thruway Authority is particularly efficient in that regard. I imagine the NJTA is too. And Penn. Turnpike for years had emergency call boxes at frequent intervals. Don't know if they still do.
The PA Turnpike has either been phasing out or already phased out their call boxes.

Those service areas aren't because the roads are collecting tolls, though.
Actually, those service plazas were indeed initially built as part of the toll road system regardless of whether such had an Interstate number from day one (DE & MD) or was grandfathered in later on (MA, NY & PA).

And didn't the Schoharie Bridge on the Thruway collapse sometime in the late '80s?  (Looking at you, Rothman)
Ayup.  Contractor didn't have a good enough foundation for the piers and they got scoured out by the river.
I initially though of jotting that one down (incident happened in 1987); but from what I've further read, the scouring by the river was the result torrential rains & high water levels that took place prior to the collapse... i.e. a weather-related collapse.  Such was why I didn't include such in my earlier-listings.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 17, 2019, 09:28:50 AM
And didn't the Schoharie Bridge on the Thruway collapse sometime in the late '80s?  (Looking at you, Rothman)
Ayup.  Contractor didn't have a good enough foundation for the piers and they got scoured out by the river.
Where were the state construction inspectors and the resident engineer?

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the collapse of the Schoharie Creek Bridge was the failure of the New York State Thruway Authority to maintain adequate riprap around the bridge piers, which led to severe erosion in the soil beneath the spread footings.  Contributing to the accident were ambiguous plans and specifications used for construction of the bridge, an inadequate NYSTA bridge inspection program, and inadequate oversight by the New York State Department of Transportation and the Federal Highway Administration.  Contributing to the severity of the accident was the lack of structural redundancy in the bridge.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR8802.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 17, 2019, 10:49:22 AM
J&N, I'm impressed by your observation that ten or twenty years ago the NJTA would not have allowed the pavement to deteriorate so badly on the Turnpike. What would you attribute this change to nowadays? Is the Turnpike Authority getting sloppy or just tighter with spending or both?

While the Acts 44 & 89 of the PA Turnpike are very well known, much less known (possibly due to it not being a law or statute) is that the NJTA give a payment to the State of New Jersey every year.  Deep down in their annual budget report https://www.njta.com/media/4878/2020-annual-budget-final.pdf , on Page 160 (Page 168 of the PDF), shows that in 2018 the NJTA paid the State $198 million.  If repaving averages $1 million per mile, that's 198 lane miles that couldn't be repaved; or $198 million of other projects that couldn't be done that year.  On the next 2 pages, the payment has actually gone down slightly to $179.5 million and 178.5 million budgeted for Fiscal Years 2019 & 2020, respectively.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on December 17, 2019, 10:55:46 AM
And didn't the Schoharie Bridge on the Thruway collapse sometime in the late '80s?  (Looking at you, Rothman)
Ayup.  Contractor didn't have a good enough foundation for the piers and they got scoured out by the river.
Where were the state construction inspectors and the resident engineer?

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the collapse of the Schoharie Creek Bridge was the failure of the New York State Thruway Authority to maintain adequate riprap around the bridge piers, which led to severe erosion in the soil beneath the spread footings.  Contributing to the accident were ambiguous plans and specifications used for construction of the bridge, an inadequate NYSTA bridge inspection program, and inadequate oversight by the New York State Department of Transportation and the Federal Highway Administration.  Contributing to the severity of the accident was the lack of structural redundancy in the bridge.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR8802.aspx
Exactly:  The public authority didn't do its job, which means the argument that they somehow are always better maintained isn't well founded.

Given the time period, NYSTA and other public authorities had great legal separation from the State (just like the CBBT -- heck, they still do).  Although the NTSB made those recommendations for NYSDOT and FHWA to have more oversight, given the legal framework, they amounted to a paper tiger.

Outside of a few projects where NYSDOT and NYSTA work together, NYSTA is still mainly responsible for their own infrastructure, despite the NTSB's quixotic recommendations for state and federal oversight. Their failings are their own.

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 17, 2019, 12:49:51 PM
Actually, those service plazas were indeed initially built as part of the toll road system regardless of whether such had an Interstate number from day one (DE & MD) or was grandfathered in later on (MA, NY & PA).
They were still grandfathered in no matter how long the corridors were in the plan.  My understanding is that MD and DE tolled I-95 not just for the heck of it (which wouldn't have been legal, anyways) but because they needed those portions done immediately and couldn't wait for the interstate construction funds to become available.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 17, 2019, 01:26:05 PM
Val, With all due respect, just where in my earlier posts did I state that such wasn't grandfathered? 

Additionally, I am very well aware of the reasoning why I-95 in DE & MD were built as tolled facilities even though such was part of the Interstate system from conception.

I guess the question here is (despite this being a PA Turnpike thread): has the prohibition of service plazas on newly-built Interstates existed from day one, or did such come along later as an amendment?  The fact that the Delaware Turnpike & JFK Memorial Highway portions of I-95 were built with service plazas would indicate that the answer to that question is the latter.  Is such a correct assumption?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 17, 2019, 01:58:53 PM
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR8802.aspx
Exactly:  The public authority didn't do its job, which means the argument that they somehow are always better maintained isn't well founded.
Given the time period, NYSTA and other public authorities had great legal separation from the State (just like the CBBT -- heck, they still do).  Although the NTSB made those recommendations for NYSDOT and FHWA to have more oversight, given the legal framework, they amounted to a paper tiger.
I don't see how FHWA would be responsible, it was a state-built turnpike.

A turnpike authority is an independent state agency (at least most of them are), conceptually a small state DOT, so I don't really see how the state DOT should be blamed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on December 17, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
J&N, I'm impressed by your observation that ten or twenty years ago the NJTA would not have allowed the pavement to deteriorate so badly on the Turnpike. What would you attribute this change to nowadays? Is the Turnpike Authority getting sloppy or just tighter with spending or both?

While the Acts 44 & 89 of the PA Turnpike are very well known, much less known (possibly due to it not being a law or statute) is that the NJTA give a payment to the State of New Jersey every year.  Deep down in their annual budget report https://www.njta.com/media/4878/2020-annual-budget-final.pdf , on Page 160 (Page 168 of the PDF), shows that in 2018 the NJTA paid the State $198 million.  If repaving averages $1 million per mile, that's 198 lane miles that couldn't be repaved; or $198 million of other projects that couldn't be done that year.  On the next 2 pages, the payment has actually gone down slightly to $179.5 million and 178.5 million budgeted for Fiscal Years 2019 & 2020, respectively.
Careful what you're reading. NJTA partners with NJDOT on many projects. These payments include the Pulaski rebuild and 139.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on December 17, 2019, 08:32:49 PM
Side question here, and totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but why are service plazas prohibited on Interstate highways?

Aside from offering food and gas, there's little difference between those and a welcome center or rest area with vending machines and a bathroom (in fact, NY's newer rest areas seem to blur the lines; example being those on the Northway, with the vending machines offering a decent variety of snacks and drinks).

I suspect there's probably legal shenanigans at play (don't want to commercialize Interstates? (though in that case, billboards shouldn't be on the highways...) some obscure commercial laws I don't know?), but people enter and exit a service plaza no different than they do entering or exiting the highway.

And considering how quite a bit of the Interstate system is based off of freeway systems in Europe, which likely already had service areas, I'm not sure why those were excised when creating (or revising) Interstate Highway standards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on December 17, 2019, 08:47:02 PM
Side question here, and totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but why are service plazas prohibited on Interstate highways?

This has been discussed in other threads (a search should turn up interesting results), but to simplify, full-service plazas were ruled out early on for free Interstates to avoid competing with motorist services businesses at interchanges.

I suspect there's probably legal shenanigans at play (don't want to commercialize Interstates? (though in that case, billboards shouldn't be on the highways...) some obscure commercial laws I don't know?), but people enter and exit a service plaza no different than they do entering or exiting the highway.

Interstates are covered by a billboard ban in principle, though the situation is complex and many billboards are visible from Interstates because they are grandfathered in.  If memory serves, billboard control on Interstates started in the 1950's with a provision in federal law incentivizing state DOTs to impose billboard control within a set distance (I think 600 ft) of the right-of-way fence.

And considering how quite a bit of the Interstate system is based off of freeway systems in Europe, which likely already had service areas, I'm not sure why those were excised when creating (or revising) Interstate Highway standards.

European motorways did have service areas, but models varied--e.g., Germany had fuel-only service areas, while other countries had full-service provision--and by the time the Interstates received dedicated funding in 1956, full-service plazas were entrenched on the public-authority turnpikes.  This was the precedent that could be pointed to in arguing that granting concessions at service plazas amounted to undue preference.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 17, 2019, 08:56:20 PM
Val, With all due respect, just where in my earlier posts did I state that such wasn't grandfathered? 

Additionally, I am very well aware of the reasoning why I-95 in DE & MD were built as tolled facilities even though such was part of the Interstate system from conception.

I guess the question here is (despite this being a PA Turnpike thread): has the prohibition of service plazas on newly-built Interstates existed from day one, or did such come along later as an amendment?  The fact that the Delaware Turnpike & JFK Memorial Highway portions of I-95 were built with service plazas would indicate that the answer to that question is the latter.  Is such a correct assumption?

Well, looking at the phrasing of the two posts:

Those service areas aren't because the roads are collecting tolls, though.
Actually, those service plazas were indeed initially built as part of the toll road system regardless of whether such had an Interstate number from day one (DE & MD) or was grandfathered in later on (MA, NY & PA).
Sure looks like this post is trying to make a distinction between the northeast toll roads and I-95 in MD and DE.

In any case, I'm not aware of any version of the plans that had no interstate corridor along roads like the Thruway and PA Turnpike.  Although looking in to the history of I-95 in DE and MD, it looks like the toll portions were constructed far later than I would have thought.  I thought they were built because MD and DE couldn't wait for Congress to finish wheeling and dealing and get the Interstate Highway Act passed, similar to the story for the NY Thruway.  Instead they were built well after the interstate system had begun because the states couldn't come up with the local match, which begs the question... how was any of that stuff allowed?  Wasn't the whole point of the interstate system that it was supposed to be a free network of highways?  Also, my understanding regarding the service area prohibition was that it was baked into the original law as a compromise to protect the interests of the businesses on the local roads.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 17, 2019, 10:52:57 PM
Although looking in to the history of I-95 in DE and MD, it looks like the toll portions were constructed far later than I would have thought.  I thought they were built because MD and DE couldn't wait for Congress to finish wheeling and dealing and get the Interstate Highway Act passed, similar to the story for the NY Thruway.  Instead they were built well after the interstate system had begun because the states couldn't come up with the local match, which begs the question... how was any of that stuff allowed?  Wasn't the whole point of the interstate system that it was supposed to be a free network of highways? 
There were federal funding limitations as well, that would have either delayed I-95 or delayed some other Interstate highway segment, at least in Maryland.

Planning for the Northeastern Expressway, as the John F. Kennedy Memorial Highway was called originally, began in 1955.  The turnpike was envisioned as 42 miles of four-lane, divided highway running from White Marsh Boulevard to the Maryland-Delaware line.  Today, the highway, designated Interstate 95 as part of the national interstate highway system, is a popular travel route for interstate and commuter traffic.

The highway was developed as an interstate toll facility to hasten the construction of a safe and convenient thoroughfare through the northeastern part of Maryland.  If the highway had been built using traditional federal highway-funding programs, the turnpike would have been completed seven years later than planned.

The highway was dedicated at 4 p.m. on Nov. 14, 1963. President John F. Kennedy, with Governor Millard Tawes of Maryland and Governor Carvel of Delaware, officiated the ceremony.

https://mdta.maryland.gov/Toll_Facilities/JFK.html

So the state government didn't think it was worth waiting until 1970.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on December 18, 2019, 09:38:16 AM
Sure looks like this post is trying to make a distinction between the northeast toll roads and I-95 in MD and DE.
The only distinction I was trying to convey in that post was that unlike other toll facilities that were either built or already under construction prior to the Interstate Highway Act becoming law; the Delaware Turnpike & JFK Memorial Highway was designated as an Interstate when both were built.  If I wasn't too clear on such, I apologize.

However, based on Beltway's above-recent post; the JFK Memorial Highway was planned a year prior to the Interstate Highway Act being signed, and the planning for the Delaware Turnpike dates as far back as 1951 (after doing some quick research).  Such was probably why both facilities included service plazas in those facilities' original construction even though both received the I-95 designation well before the construction phases.  So, the inclusion of service plazas were indeed other grandfathered cases even though their construction was much later than other tolled highways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 18, 2019, 10:27:15 AM
However, based on Beltway's above-recent post; the JFK Memorial Highway was planned a year prior to the Interstate Highway Act being signed, and the planning for the Delaware Turnpike dates as far back as 1951 (after doing some quick research).  Such was probably why both facilities included service plazas in those facilities' original construction even though both received the I-95 designation well before the construction phases.  So, the inclusion of service plazas were indeed other grandfathered cases even though their construction was much later than other tolled highways.
Even though built during the post-1956 Interstate era (begun by the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956), they still were funded with state-issued toll revenue bonds and (presumably) no federal-aid funding.

State built turnpikes that were not under the rules of the Interstate system concerning service plazas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 18, 2019, 01:18:17 PM
J&N, I'm impressed by your observation that ten or twenty years ago the NJTA would not have allowed the pavement to deteriorate so badly on the Turnpike. What would you attribute this change to nowadays? Is the Turnpike Authority getting sloppy or just tighter with spending or both?

While the Acts 44 & 89 of the PA Turnpike are very well known, much less known (possibly due to it not being a law or statute) is that the NJTA give a payment to the State of New Jersey every year.  Deep down in their annual budget report https://www.njta.com/media/4878/2020-annual-budget-final.pdf , on Page 160 (Page 168 of the PDF), shows that in 2018 the NJTA paid the State $198 million.  If repaving averages $1 million per mile, that's 198 lane miles that couldn't be repaved; or $198 million of other projects that couldn't be done that year.  On the next 2 pages, the payment has actually gone down slightly to $179.5 million and 178.5 million budgeted for Fiscal Years 2019 & 2020, respectively.
Careful what you're reading. NJTA partners with NJDOT on many projects. These payments include the Pulaski rebuild and 139.

Reimbursements are usually listed and are very specific as to their intention.

According to this information from NJDOT, there's a payment roughly around the same amount ($204 million, vs. $198 million) from the NJ Turnpike Authority to support NJ Transit operations.  Also found within the State of New Jersey Budget:  https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/capital/tcplaw/njta.shtm ; https://www.nj.gov/treasury/omb/publications/19bib/BIB.pdf , Page 59

In the FY19 NJTA Budget https://www.njta.com/media/4134/2019-annual-budget-final.pdf , there's a small line item for Pulaski Skyway of $180,000 (Page 125), a Feeder Road Reimbursement to NJDOT for $3.5 million (page 120), and a few small other reimbursement line items to various entities. 

Can't find anything current to substantiate such a huge amount for the Pulaski Skyway or 139.  In the FY17 Annual report, there is a line item for reimbursement of the Skyway construction, but much less - just over $1 million. https://www.njta.com/media/1661/fin_ann_bdg_2017.pdf , Page 105.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 18, 2019, 01:41:54 PM
Although looking in to the history of I-95 in DE and MD, it looks like the toll portions were constructed far later than I would have thought.  I thought they were built because MD and DE couldn't wait for Congress to finish wheeling and dealing and get the Interstate Highway Act passed, similar to the story for the NY Thruway.  Instead they were built well after the interstate system had begun because the states couldn't come up with the local match, which begs the question... how was any of that stuff allowed?  Wasn't the whole point of the interstate system that it was supposed to be a free network of highways? 
There were federal funding limitations as well, that would have either delayed I-95 or delayed some other Interstate highway segment, at least in Maryland.

Planning for the Northeastern Expressway, as the John F. Kennedy Memorial Highway was called originally, began in 1955.  The turnpike was envisioned as 42 miles of four-lane, divided highway running from White Marsh Boulevard to the Maryland-Delaware line.  Today, the highway, designated Interstate 95 as part of the national interstate highway system, is a popular travel route for interstate and commuter traffic.

The highway was developed as an interstate toll facility to hasten the construction of a safe and convenient thoroughfare through the northeastern part of Maryland.  If the highway had been built using traditional federal highway-funding programs, the turnpike would have been completed seven years later than planned.

The highway was dedicated at 4 p.m. on Nov. 14, 1963. President John F. Kennedy, with Governor Millard Tawes of Maryland and Governor Carvel of Delaware, officiated the ceremony.

https://mdta.maryland.gov/Toll_Facilities/JFK.html

So the state government didn't think it was worth waiting until 1970.
How would there be delays on the federal end?  Didn't the federal government pay their 90% as interstate segments were built?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on December 18, 2019, 02:43:26 PM
How would there be delays on the federal end?  Didn't the federal government pay their 90% as interstate segments were built?

They did, but BPR/FHWA's obligation authority was (and still is) constrained by appropriations.  It comes down to a question of how much federal funding Congress chooses to make available in a given budget cycle.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 18, 2019, 08:27:01 PM
So did states have to coordinate what got built when with FHWA or something?  I was under the impression that they just built stuff and stuck the feds with the bill.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 19, 2019, 11:28:03 AM
J&N, I'm impressed by your observation that ten or twenty years ago the NJTA would not have allowed the pavement to deteriorate so badly on the Turnpike. What would you attribute this change to nowadays? Is the Turnpike Authority getting sloppy or just tighter with spending or both?

While the Acts 44 & 89 of the PA Turnpike are very well known, much less known (possibly due to it not being a law or statute) is that the NJTA give a payment to the State of New Jersey every year.  Deep down in their annual budget report https://www.njta.com/media/4878/2020-annual-budget-final.pdf , on Page 160 (Page 168 of the PDF), shows that in 2018 the NJTA paid the State $198 million.  If repaving averages $1 million per mile, that's 198 lane miles that couldn't be repaved; or $198 million of other projects that couldn't be done that year.  On the next 2 pages, the payment has actually gone down slightly to $179.5 million and 178.5 million budgeted for Fiscal Years 2019 & 2020, respectively.

I assume that this is probably a subsidy payment to New Jersey Transit.. 

Still, unlike Act 44 and Act 89, I am not aware of NJTA having to issue new debt to make this payment to NJDOT and (presumably) on to NJT.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 19, 2019, 12:11:54 PM
J&N, I'm impressed by your observation that ten or twenty years ago the NJTA would not have allowed the pavement to deteriorate so badly on the Turnpike. What would you attribute this change to nowadays? Is the Turnpike Authority getting sloppy or just tighter with spending or both?

While the Acts 44 & 89 of the PA Turnpike are very well known, much less known (possibly due to it not being a law or statute) is that the NJTA give a payment to the State of New Jersey every year.  Deep down in their annual budget report https://www.njta.com/media/4878/2020-annual-budget-final.pdf , on Page 160 (Page 168 of the PDF), shows that in 2018 the NJTA paid the State $198 million.  If repaving averages $1 million per mile, that's 198 lane miles that couldn't be repaved; or $198 million of other projects that couldn't be done that year.  On the next 2 pages, the payment has actually gone down slightly to $179.5 million and 178.5 million budgeted for Fiscal Years 2019 & 2020, respectively.

I assume that this is probably a subsidy payment to New Jersey Transit.. 

Still, unlike Act 44 and Act 89, I am not aware of NJTA having to issue new debt to make this payment to NJDOT and (presumably) on to NJT.

It would be built in to the bonds issued.  Even if they were to claim it's all toll-payer money, that toll-payer money isn't available for projects, which the bonds cover.  In the end, it doesn't matter which hand it comes from; it's still money that the NJTA can't use for themselves to benefit the toll road travelers directly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on December 19, 2019, 12:26:22 PM
So did states have to coordinate what got built when with FHWA or something?  I was under the impression that they just built stuff and stuck the feds with the bill.

Yes.  FHWA is involved from the start as the state allocates construction funding, and also reviews the plans, specifications, and estimates.  During construction FHWA uses a voucher system to release funding incrementally as the work progresses to completion.

When a federal agency obligates funds in excess of appropriations, which is what would likely happen if FHWA played along with a "build it and stick the feds with the bill" strategy without any coordination with the states as to the incidence of expense, the result is called a coercive deficiency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercive_deficiency) since it puts Congress in the position of having to appropriate additional funds to avoid default or breach of contract.  This undermines Congress' power of the purse and has been statute-barred since the Anti-Deficiency Act of 1870.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on December 19, 2019, 12:50:33 PM
Interesting.  Looks like many of the same bureaucracies created around federal funding for projects today were used even in the initial funding/construction of the interstate system.  Makes sense that they would want to review plans, to make sure everything was built to standards.

Re: the funding, it probably would have been easier for the states (especially in situations like MD and DE) if it was done as a "must pay" similar to Social Security, Medicare, etc., which would have worked back when the Highway Trust Fund was solvent.  Just put a disclaimer that "all bills for approved work will be paid on a first-come, first-served basis as money becomes available" and have some bureaucrats do the accounting.  Then they could have just built the roads and been paid back as gas tax money flowed in.

The whole difference between authorization and appropriation has always struck me as a little strange.  Why even have the authorization in the budget if it doesn't actually mean a whole lot in practice?  I'd just get rid of Congressional bills to appropriate funds and have a non-partisan legislative office do the accounting and distribute funds relative to revenue and the budget on a quarterly basis.  Then the agencies wouldn't be held hostage in political fights as often.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on December 19, 2019, 01:05:57 PM
So did states have to coordinate what got built when with FHWA or something?  I was under the impression that they just built stuff and stuck the feds with the bill.
Yes.  FHWA is involved from the start as the state allocates construction funding, and also reviews the plans, specifications, and estimates.  During construction FHWA uses a voucher system to release funding incrementally as the work progresses to completion.
A long and detailed webpage, but this details how the Interstate highway system was funded from 1956 to 1991.

Summary of the Interstate Cost Estimate (ICE) Process
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/highwayhistory/data/page03.cfm

Basically, every year, the Cost to Complete the system was calculated for each state, and distributions were made by BPR and later by FHWA to each of the states using a predetermined formula that firstly was constrained by the total federal funds available for that year, which was constrained by the amount of receipts into the road-user funded Highway Trust Fund.

A new method of distributing funds among the States was necessitated by the 1956 Act and was based on each State receiving a share of the annual Interstate Construction fund authorization in the same proportion as the cost to complete its System bore to the cost of the System in all States.  To achieve a simultaneous completion in all States, the Congress periodically required the BPR, and later FHWA, to develop a new estimate of the cost to complete the System and to serve as the basis for apportionments until the next estimate was prepared.

The purpose of the estimates was to derive the ratio of the Federal share of the estimated cost of completing the Interstate System in each State to the sum of the Federal share of these costs in all the States.  These ratios served as the basis for apportioning funds authorized for Interstate completion.  This method of apportionment was specified in 23 U.S.C. 104(b)(5)(A).  (Note that Interstate construction (IC) funds were apportioned a year in advance of authorization; thus fiscal year 1993 funds were apportioned in fiscal year 1992).

 
The federal transportation bill ISTEA of 1991 changed funding methods considerably, but by then the 42,500 mile original Interstate system was 99% by mileage complete or fully under construction by then.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on December 19, 2019, 02:50:21 PM
Interesting.  Looks like many of the same bureaucracies created around federal funding for projects today were used even in the initial funding/construction of the interstate system.  Makes sense that they would want to review plans, to make sure everything was built to standards.

This doesn't happen to nearly the same degree now, AFAIK, but back in the 1930's when scientific management was just beginning to come to the state agencies responsible for highways, the BPR would send out expediters to ensure that federal funds were spent only on eligible improvements (i.e., ones meeting published engineering standards) and that no money was siphoned off by graft or other forms of corruption.  Francis Turner, later "Mr. Interstate," was an expediter in Arkansas at an early stage in his career.

Re: the funding, it probably would have been easier for the states (especially in situations like MD and DE) if it was done as a "must pay" similar to Social Security, Medicare, etc., which would have worked back when the Highway Trust Fund was solvent.  Just put a disclaimer that "all bills for approved work will be paid on a first-come, first-served basis as money becomes available" and have some bureaucrats do the accounting.  Then they could have just built the roads and been paid back as gas tax money flowed in.

I don't know if an entitlement model was considered for Interstate funding disbursement.  In principle it could work if the payments were made out of a trust fund that was kept topped up to cover all outstanding authorizations for construction projects.

In the specific cases of Maryland and Delaware, I wonder about the in-state/out-of-state splits that were estimated as their respective turnpikes were being planned.  On the surface, 90% federal funding looks like "free money," but it isn't really if the amount that is available to a given state is approximately equal to what is collected from in-state residents through the federal fuel tax.  If a turnpike carries, say, 50% in-state and 50% out-of-state traffic, then a lesser share of the resources to build and operate are coming from in-state residents.  (In reverse, as applied to infrastructure that already exists, this is why the prospect of welcome-stranger tolling on current free Interstates such as I-15 in Arizona and I-80 in Wyoming is such a threat.)

The whole difference between authorization and appropriation has always struck me as a little strange.  Why even have the authorization in the budget if it doesn't actually mean a whole lot in practice?  I'd just get rid of Congressional bills to appropriate funds and have a non-partisan legislative office do the accounting and distribute funds relative to revenue and the budget on a quarterly basis.  Then the agencies wouldn't be held hostage in political fights as often.

In the federal-aid context, authorization gives the non-federal partner (generally a state DOT) reassurance that the federal share will eventually be paid, and appropriation prevents the feds from having to deal with surprise bills and "Oh, you authorized this twenty years ago--we are just now getting to it."

There are, in my view, two main reasons we now have frequent food fights over lapses in appropriations, to the extent that federal government shutdowns have become almost a routine way of doing business.  The first is that we now operate to a 1982 Attorney General opinion to the effect that a lapse in appropriations means an agency must shut down.  Previously, the prevailing legal interpretation was that an agency could operate in the absence of appropriations (at least for a short time) because it could not have been Congress' intent that it abruptly cease operating.  The second is that extreme political polarization, driven in part by rising income inequality, gives both parties incentive to resort to procedural hacks to gain leverage to push their respective policy preferences.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 28, 2019, 09:58:04 AM
Just a friendly reminder that our annual toll increase is upon us:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-increasing-for-12th-straight-year/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2019, 12:49:37 PM
Just a friendly reminder that our annual toll increase is upon us:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-increasing-for-12th-straight-year/

Getting a lot of news all over being the toll will be over $50 now!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 28, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Just a friendly reminder that our annual toll increase is upon us:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-increasing-for-12th-straight-year/

Getting a lot of news all over being the toll will be over $50 now!

Indeed.  I did a quick check to see what the cash/Toll By Plate tolls will be for regular passenger vehicles going across PA:

Westbound from the Delaware River Bridge to Ohio will be $61.20  (EZ Pass $44.10)
Eastbound from Ohio to the Delaware River Bridge will be $65.70  (EZ Pass $44.30)
Eastbound from Ohio to Mid-County, then north to Clarks Summit (why anyone would do this I have no idea!) will be $78.60!  (EZ Pass $52.30)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 28, 2019, 05:47:25 PM
The question becomes at what point does 81/70/68 make sense versus the Turnpike west of Carlisle?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2019, 06:24:25 PM
The question becomes at what point does 81/70/68 make sense versus the Turnpike west of Carlisle?

All depends where you're coming from. For many 80 makes sense.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on December 29, 2019, 09:50:07 AM
The question becomes at what point does 81/70/68 make sense versus the Turnpike west of Carlisle?

All depends where you're coming from. For many 80 makes sense.

Here are the variables i use when in a car, PHL-OHIO

1: Weather. Is it spring/summer/Fall or Winter. If winter, is a snow storm approaching? If so, take 76, the snow clearing on it seems to be overall better. If any other season, 476-80.

2: Am i in a hurry, or can i take slightly more time. The Northern Route adds 30 minutes.

3: Am i splitting the cost of a trip? Am i taking people with me to something out west, like a furry convention or a car show. IF so, take the toll road and just charge em a few extra bucks with the gas money, or have them fill up the gas tank for the entire trip, and you handle the toll.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on December 29, 2019, 10:42:24 AM
Just a friendly reminder that our annual toll increase is upon us:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-increasing-for-12th-straight-year/

Clearly stated at the beginning of the article, but probably ignored by many, is that the toll increases are at least partially due to legislatively-mandated payments to PennDOT for projects that have no connection whatsoever to the turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 29, 2019, 11:23:37 AM
Just a friendly reminder that our annual toll increase is upon us:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-increasing-for-12th-straight-year/

Clearly stated at the beginning of the article, but probably ignored by many, is that the toll increases are at least partially due to legislatively-mandated payments to PennDOT for projects that have no connection whatsoever to the turnpike.


Because, honestly, its irrelevant.  A motorist paying a toll doesn't have any say where that money goes, just like when you buy any other product anywhere. When you buy a candy bar, or a new sofa, your money is going to advertising, salaries, development, cleaning the parking lot, the CEO's private jet, etc. Because the news ain't reporting that doesn't mean it's not happening.

The question becomes at what point does 81/70/68 make sense versus the Turnpike west of Carlisle?

All depends where you're coming from. For many 80 makes sense.

Here are the variables i use when in a car, PHL-OHIO

1 other for me...Boredom. theres onlyvso many times I can take the same route. If I use 80 it adds a little time to my trip, but at least it's a change of scenery.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on December 29, 2019, 11:37:25 AM
Just a friendly reminder that our annual toll increase is upon us:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-increasing-for-12th-straight-year/

Clearly stated at the beginning of the article, but probably ignored by many, is that the toll increases are at least partially due to legislatively-mandated payments to PennDOT for projects that have no connection whatsoever to the turnpike.


Because, honestly, its irrelevant.  A motorist paying a toll doesn't have any say where that money goes, just like when you buy any other product anywhere. When you buy a candy bar, or a new sofa, your money is going to advertising, salaries, development, cleaning the parking lot, the CEO's private jet, etc. Because the news ain't reporting that doesn't mean it's not happening.


Your last sentence, exactly.  That the news ain't reporting it doesn't make it irrelevant.  You confuse irrelevancy with ignorance or apathy.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on January 02, 2020, 01:37:46 PM
2020 PA Turnpike Toll Schedule (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/tolls/tolls_2020/2020_Tolls.pdf), effective Sunday Jan. 5.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on January 25, 2020, 07:23:43 PM
I wonder how the interchanges between I-70 and the mainline will be affected by the going cashless (I might call it the "Plating" or "EZ-Passing"). Would the Bedford intersection finally be eliminated?

And how would I-76 leave the mainline turnpike under this Cashless system? Actually, how would any freeway-freeway connections be made?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on January 26, 2020, 11:19:05 AM
I wonder how the interchanges between I-70 and the mainline will be affected by the going cashless (I might call it the "Plating" or "EZ-Passing"). Would the Bedford intersection finally be eliminated?

I doubt the PTC would eliminate any interchanges, especially Bedford which is the only connection to I-99 and north from the Turnpike.  If anything, with AET, more interchanges can be added like simple slip ramps such as Exit 340/Virginia Drive up to full ones like Exit 320/PA 29.

And how would I-76 leave the mainline turnpike under this Cashless system? Actually, how would any freeway-freeway connections be made?

The interchanges would be the same, except there would just be a gantry with E-ZPass readers and cameras where the toll plazas are currently located.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on January 26, 2020, 11:36:34 AM
I wonder how the interchanges between I-70 and the mainline will be affected by the going cashless (I might call it the "Plating" or "EZ-Passing"). Would the Bedford intersection finally be eliminated?

I doubt the PTC would eliminate any interchanges, especially Bedford which is the only connection to I-99 and north from the Turnpike.  If anything, with AET, more interchanges can be added like simple slip ramps such as Exit 340/Virginia Drive up to full ones like Exit 320/PA 29.

And how would I-76 leave the mainline turnpike under this Cashless system? Actually, how would any freeway-freeway connections be made?

The interchanges would be the same, except there would just be a gantry with E-ZPass readers and cameras where the toll plazas are currently located.

SM-G965U

Yeah if anything, they could more cheaply build interchanges without the need for trumpets, just adding standard ramps and toll readers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on January 26, 2020, 12:06:05 PM
I wonder how the interchanges between I-70 and the mainline will be affected by the going cashless (I might call it the "Plating" or "EZ-Passing"). Would the Bedford intersection finally be eliminated?

I doubt the PTC would eliminate any interchanges, especially Bedford which is the only connection to I-99 and north from the Turnpike.  If anything, with AET, more interchanges can be added like simple slip ramps such as Exit 340/Virginia Drive up to full ones like Exit 320/PA 29.

And how would I-76 leave the mainline turnpike under this Cashless system? Actually, how would any freeway-freeway connections be made?

The interchanges would be the same, except there would just be a gantry with E-ZPass readers and cameras where the toll plazas are currently located.

SM-G965U

Yeah if anything, they could more cheaply build interchanges without the need for trumpets, just adding standard ramps and toll readers.

By "Bedford," I meant "Breezewood." As in, I-70 would actually leave onto the I-70 mainline and eliminate the US 30 overlap. The existing segment on 70 WB to US 30 could be designated as BS-70 or something.

But about Bedford, a cloverleaf at I-99 would be nice, or at I-81 (though that might not happen due to development).

I ask this because of a website I found regarding a hypothetical all-electronic NYS Thruway: http://www.nysroads.com/fic-thwy-aet.php
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: DrSmith on January 26, 2020, 04:07:08 PM
It seems like the setup MassDOT went with for the Mass Pike is a good option for cashless on a ticketed system. It went it well. And as a user, there was a good plan once the conversion occurred with traffic passing through the booths for a couple of weeks at 15 mph while outer lanes were demolished and prepared for temporary usage at 35 mph and then the inner portions converted into normal travel lanes and all completed within 1 year.

Also, for where major updates would help traffic things can be designed and implemented. Major updates are planned now for the 495 interchange and Allston-Brighton interchange that can be implemented much easier without the booths or trying to funnel traffic through single points.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on January 27, 2020, 09:04:20 AM
By "Bedford," I meant "Breezewood." As in, I-70 would actually leave onto the I-70 mainline and eliminate the US 30 overlap. The existing segment on 70 WB to US 30 could be designated as BS-70 or something.

But about Bedford, a cloverleaf at I-99 would be nice, or at I-81 (though that might not happen due to development).

I ask this because of a website I found regarding a hypothetical all-electronic NYS Thruway: http://www.nysroads.com/fic-thwy-aet.php

It's not hypothetical; it's being implemented right now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on January 27, 2020, 09:17:57 AM
It seems like the setup MassDOT went with for the Mass Pike is a good option for cashless on a ticketed system. It went it well. And as a user, there was a good plan once the conversion occurred with traffic passing through the booths for a couple of weeks at 15 mph while outer lanes were demolished and prepared for temporary usage at 35 mph and then the inner portions converted into normal travel lanes and all completed within 1 year.
One reason why MassDOT's AET conversion along the Pike went fairly smoothly was because its toll collection system, Allston/Brighton, Weston & Newton mainline toll plazas aside, completely changed from a closed-system (payment at the exiting interchange) to AET gantries placed only along the Turnpike mainline... i.e. a toll-barrier system.  Had the Pike's prior toll collection system been all mainline plazas from its inception similar to what the Garden State Parkway has; the AET transition IMHO would not have been as smooth. 

Personally, the PTC (and even the NJTPA for that matter) should look at MassDOT's AET transition as a possible model for their respective proposed AET conversions.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cl94 on January 27, 2020, 11:09:33 AM
By "Bedford," I meant "Breezewood." As in, I-70 would actually leave onto the I-70 mainline and eliminate the US 30 overlap. The existing segment on 70 WB to US 30 could be designated as BS-70 or something.

But about Bedford, a cloverleaf at I-99 would be nice, or at I-81 (though that might not happen due to development).

I ask this because of a website I found regarding a hypothetical all-electronic NYS Thruway: http://www.nysroads.com/fic-thwy-aet.php

It's not hypothetical; it's being implemented right now.

The AET conversion is not hypothetical. Any interchange conversions are hypothetical. At this point, nothing is being changed, though I expect major changes to occur at Exit 24 within the next decade, because that's the interchange with the most issues right now. They can channelize WB/SB to keep through traffic on I-87 and I-90 separate, but there's no way to avoid "crossing streams" in the other direction unless you block access from I-90 EB to US 20.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on January 27, 2020, 11:31:55 AM
If the PTC not even immediately removing toll plazas is any indication, actually reconfiguring any interchanges is still a long way off.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on January 27, 2020, 01:23:57 PM
If the PTC not even immediately removing toll plazas is any indication, actually reconfiguring any interchanges is still a long way off.

I think they're so in debt that immediate removal is not feasible at all.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 27, 2020, 08:56:21 PM
If the PTC not even immediately removing toll plazas is any indication, actually reconfiguring any interchanges is still a long way off.

I think they're so in debt that immediate removal is not feasible at all.

They are in debt but that's different from broke poor. They can still undertake hundreds of millions in constuction projects.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 28, 2020, 06:16:03 AM
If the PTC not even immediately removing toll plazas is any indication, actually reconfiguring any interchanges is still a long way off.

I think they're so in debt that immediate removal is not feasible at all.

They're in debt by legislative fiat, not because they spend or spent more than they take in.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on January 28, 2020, 03:49:03 PM
The Act 44 lawsuit has reached the end of the road:

https://landline.media/supreme-court-rejects-ooidas-petition-to-hear-pennsylvania-toll-lawsuit/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 28, 2020, 09:25:52 PM
Upon my regular review of the projects listed on the PTC website, a few projects that had their schedule status changed to TBD over the last 3 years now have rescheduled dates shown such as mainline reconstruction near New Bethlehem.  It will be interesting  to see if any more projects start sporting realistic schedules due to this ruling.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on January 29, 2020, 08:27:43 PM
Upon my regular review of the projects listed on the PTC website, a few projects that had their schedule status changed to TBD over the last 3 years now have rescheduled dates shown such as mainline reconstruction near New Bethlehem.  It will be interesting  to see if any more projects start sporting realistic schedules due to this ruling.

New Bethlehem is quite a distance off the Turnpike...did you mean New Baltimore?  Looks like 2022 for the first part of that project, which will include removal of the steps to the church there.

The resolution of the Act 44 lawsuit will provide some clarity, but the Turnpike's debt load will continue to ensure a slow pace as far as reconstruction goes. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on February 01, 2020, 10:42:59 AM
I have a question regarding the Turnpike’s control cities. It seems PTC always uses cities that are quite far at tool booths. For example, at the Allegheny Valley interchange, they use Harrisburg and Ohio. To me, it would make much more sense to use Monroeville and Irwin instead of Harrisburg, and Cranberry and Beaver instead of Ohio. I could see even using Harrisburg and Ohio as the secondary city, but as primary cities, it just seems odd to me. Is there a reason for this? Also, I could be wrong, but doesn’t the MUTCD prohibit the use of state names as control cities?

https://goo.gl/maps/aCLFXrDeWGAxoWki7
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on February 01, 2020, 11:27:05 AM
Also, I could be wrong, but doesn’t the MUTCD prohibit the use of state names as control cities?

https://goo.gl/maps/aCLFXrDeWGAxoWki7

I'm not seeing it specifically in the MUTCD, but 2E.13 Paragraph 04 references an AASHTO document on guide signs.  I would certainly like to see the practice restricted to limit the use of control state to interchanges/intersections near river crossings.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 01, 2020, 02:42:30 PM
It seems PTC always uses cities that are quite far at tool booths. For example, at the Allegheny Valley interchange, they use Harrisburg and Ohio. To me, it would make much more sense to use Monroeville and Irwin instead of Harrisburg, and Cranberry and Beaver instead of Ohio....

The cities listed on guide signs for Interstates (control cities) are supposed to significant cities of regional or national significance. Their purpose is to guide long-distance motorists who are unfamiliar with the area, not locals going to the next exit. So Harrisburg, the state capital and center of metro area of about 600,000, is an appropriate eastbound control city.

AASHTO’s list of approved control cities is listed here: https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/

Westbound is slightly problematic because the Ohio Turnpike bypasses Youngstown, Akron, and Cleveland without serving any of them directly. Then, too, I-76 breaks off the Ohio Turnpike west of Youngstown, so there’s some divergence between the destination of the road you’re currently on (PA Turnpike/OH Turnpike) and the numerical designation (I-76). So to avoid confusion, the PTC has long used Ohio (or “Ohio and West” ).

I believe that AASHTO does discourage (if not exactly prohibit) the use of state names instead of control cities, and westbound technically should be signed “Youngstown” .
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 01, 2020, 03:18:01 PM
I have a question regarding the Turnpike’s control cities. It seems PTC always uses cities that are quite far at tool booths. For example, at the Allegheny Valley interchange, they use Harrisburg and Ohio. To me, it would make much more sense to use Monroeville and Irwin instead of Harrisburg, and Cranberry and Beaver instead of Ohio. I could see even using Harrisburg and Ohio as the secondary city, but as primary cities, it just seems odd to me. Is there a reason for this? Also, I could be wrong, but doesn’t the MUTCD prohibit the use of state names as control cities?

https://goo.gl/maps/aCLFXrDeWGAxoWki7

Generally, most highway's entrance ramps don't list the next exit's towns.  Highways Control Cities are designed to direct people towards larger cities.


Westbound is slightly problematic because the Ohio Turnpike bypasses Youngstown, Akron, and Cleveland without serving any of them directly.

Note: The PA Turnpike doesn't serve Harrisburg directly either.  :cool:

It's not absolutely necessary for a highway to go into the control city's town.  Youngstown is decent, although I would prefer Cleveland, even though that involves continuing from I-76 to I-80.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on February 01, 2020, 07:35:52 PM
I have a question regarding the Turnpike’s control cities. It seems PTC always uses cities that are quite far at tool booths. For example, at the Allegheny Valley interchange, they use Harrisburg and Ohio. To me, it would make much more sense to use Monroeville and Irwin instead of Harrisburg, and Cranberry and Beaver instead of Ohio. I could see even using Harrisburg and Ohio as the secondary city, but as primary cities, it just seems odd to me. Is there a reason for this? Also, I could be wrong, but doesn’t the MUTCD prohibit the use of state names as control cities?

https://goo.gl/maps/aCLFXrDeWGAxoWki7

Generally, most highway's entrance ramps don't list the next exit's towns.  Highways Control Cities are designed to direct people towards larger cities.


Westbound is slightly problematic because the Ohio Turnpike bypasses Youngstown, Akron, and Cleveland without serving any of them directly.

Note: The PA Turnpike doesn't serve Harrisburg directly either.  :cool:

It's not absolutely necessary for a highway to go into the control city's town.  Youngstown is decent, although I would prefer Cleveland, even though that involves continuing from I-76 to I-80.

The PA Turnpike is signed using Youngstown OH as a control city on US 19 at the Cranberry Interchange (This might be PennDOT's doing, though).
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6817443,-80.1006858,3a,75y,184.52h,89.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ss4z0Nc1DtZoFsNIyuqgMdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

PennDOT also uses state names...in this particular case, on I-78, where Newark and New York would both be suitable control cities:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5853372,-75.5993595,3a,75y,64.75h,94.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqLb2hKpQSxk_4bZttLvgEw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 01, 2020, 07:50:11 PM
PennDOT also uses state names...in this particular case, on I-78, where Newark and New York would both be suitable control cities:
I've seen that concept on Interstate highways around the Chicago area, use of state names for controls -- Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana and Illinois.

I think that can be more useful than city names in some cases. 

Using "I-80 West - Iowa" is very clear when you are heading west on I-80 in NW Indiana.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: KEVIN_224 on February 01, 2020, 09:16:28 PM
Would "Quad Cities" be a no-no for I-80 as well? Does it go through or near, say, Davenport, IA?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on February 01, 2020, 10:16:07 PM
PennDOT also uses state names...in this particular case, on I-78, where Newark and New York would both be suitable control cities:
I've seen that concept on Interstate highways around the Chicago area, use of state names for controls -- Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana and Illinois.

I think that can be more useful than city names in some cases. 

Using "I-80 West - Iowa" is very clear when you are heading west on I-80 in NW Indiana.

It's not clear enough given the length of the border between Iowa and Illinois.  Could be Davenport, could be Clinton, Dubuque, or Burlington . . .

Would "Quad Cities" be a no-no for I-80 as well? Does it go through or near, say, Davenport, IA?

I-80 does go through the city limits Davenport (I think there is one of Iowa's city name signs for it, but I could be thinking of I-74), but it also gets a "Davenport Exits" sign. (https://goo.gl/maps/h3jrGduEMyW9whRq7)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 02, 2020, 08:10:52 AM
Would "Quad Cities" be a no-no for I-80 as well? Does it go through or near, say, Davenport, IA?

Quad Citirs would be meaningless. Heck, it doesn't even show up on a Google Maps search. You'll need to pick an actual city.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 02, 2020, 08:23:25 AM
Would "Quad Cities" be a no-no for I-80 as well? Does it go through or near, say, Davenport, IA?
Quad Citirs would be meaningless. Heck, it doesn't even show up on a Google Maps search. You'll need to pick an actual city.
None of which is large enough to really "stand out" in the minds of travelers that are not familiar with the area.  The whole metro isn't very large.

The Quad Cities is a region of five cities in the U.S. states of Iowa and Illinois: Davenport and Bettendorf in southeastern Iowa, and Rock Island, Moline, and East Moline in northwestern Illinois.  These cities are the center of the Quad Cities metropolitan area, which as of 2013 had a population estimate of 383,781 and a CSA (Combined Statistical Area) population of 474,937, making it the 90th-largest CSA in the nation.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 02, 2020, 08:30:44 AM
Would "Quad Cities" be a no-no for I-80 as well? Does it go through or near, say, Davenport, IA?
Quad Citirs would be meaningless. Heck, it doesn't even show up on a Google Maps search. You'll need to pick an actual city.
None of which is large enough to really "stand out" in the minds of travelers that are not familiar with the area.  The whole metro isn't very large.

The Quad Cities is a region of five cities in the U.S. states of Iowa and Illinois: Davenport and Bettendorf in southeastern Iowa, and Rock Island, Moline, and East Moline in northwestern Illinois.  These cities are the center of the Quad Cities metropolitan area, which as of 2013 had a population estimate of 383,781 and a CSA (Combined Statistical Area) population of 474,937, making it the 90th-largest CSA in the nation.

Even worse when Quad Cities doesn't even mean 4 cities!!!

In this case, just use Davenport as the main city, then afterwords use one of the other cities along the route if necessary. But the reality I would suspect is they move on to Chicago or Iowa City, based on the direction one is travelling.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 02, 2020, 08:50:10 AM
Even worse when Quad Cities doesn't even mean 4 cities!!!
In this case, just use Davenport as the main city, then afterwords use one of the other cities along the route if necessary. But the reality I would suspect is they move on to Chicago or Iowa City, based on the direction one is travelling.

Using "I-80 West - Iowa" in Indiana points you due west and beyond Illinois, which is probably good enough given the smallness of those cities.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 02, 2020, 09:10:23 AM
The PA Turnpike is signed using Youngstown OH as a control city on US 19 at the Cranberry Interchange (This might be PennDOT's doing, though).
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6817443,-80.1006858,3a,75y,184.52h,89.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ss4z0Nc1DtZoFsNIyuqgMdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Signage for the Turnpike on PennDOT roadways in western Pennsylvania almost always uses actual control cities such as on SR 3091 in New Stanton (https://goo.gl/maps/h8CTUMzjDqgv9t7v6).  One deviation is in Monroeville on I-376 and US 22 where Ohio is used, just as on the PTC's own Toll I-376 (https://goo.gl/maps/Hze3n9j3SKLM8FjW8).

There are places on the mainline where actual control cities are used such as before both New Stanton (https://goo.gl/maps/U2ouQdcUZz9rpJEd7) and Irwin (https://goo.gl/maps/csjZup69BF87nmcH7) heading westbound, unlike the "Ohio and West" which was used at Exit 57 (https://goo.gl/maps/rdFGjYepiz6WCsv17) until the gantry was taken down.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on February 02, 2020, 12:20:01 PM
The PA Turnpike is signed using Youngstown OH as a control city on US 19 at the Cranberry Interchange (This might be PennDOT's doing, though).
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6817443,-80.1006858,3a,75y,184.52h,89.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ss4z0Nc1DtZoFsNIyuqgMdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Signage for the Turnpike on PennDOT roadways in western Pennsylvania almost always uses actual control cities such as on SR 3091 in New Stanton (https://goo.gl/maps/h8CTUMzjDqgv9t7v6).  One deviation is in Monroeville on I-376 and US 22 where Ohio is used, just as on the PTC's own Toll I-376 (https://goo.gl/maps/Hze3n9j3SKLM8FjW8).

There are places on the mainline where actual control cities are used such as before both New Stanton (https://goo.gl/maps/U2ouQdcUZz9rpJEd7) and Irwin (https://goo.gl/maps/csjZup69BF87nmcH7) heading westbound, unlike the "Ohio and West" which was used at Exit 57 (https://goo.gl/maps/rdFGjYepiz6WCsv17) until the gantry was taken down.

It is that Monroeville/Pittsburgh and Irwin/McKeesport signage that really was behind my original question. That type of signing makes much more sense to me than Harrisburg and Ohio. Especially because that’s on all the signage in the Pittsburgh area, no matter the exit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: D-Dey65 on February 02, 2020, 04:32:54 PM
New idea; I was checking out Steve Alps' page on the abandoned Pennsylvania Turnpike in the Breezewood area (nice work, BTW), as well as Google Street Views of the old turnpike. And I have to say that if the Pike2Bike group takes over the whole ROW, there ought to be new parking areas along the turnpike where the old turnpike splits off. Something that would include a pedestrian/cycling bridge over the turnpike between the two parking areas and bike racks both westbound and eastbound.

A couple of other things; The two links to Brian Troutman's Abandoned PA Turnpike, and The Abandoned Pennsylvania Turnpike Website are dead, and the Historic Aerials maps of Breezewood blocks a lot of areas for some stupid reason.

One other question; was there ever an eastbound off-ramp to US 30 east of I-70? Because it looks like it here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.013577,-78.200836,690m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.013577,-78.200836,690m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en)

I should probably get some shots of the stubs in the vicinity too.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 02, 2020, 05:45:59 PM
One other question; was there ever an eastbound off-ramp to US 30 east of I-76? Because it looks like it here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.013577,-78.200836,690m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.013577,-78.200836,690m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en)

It was not, but rather the former path of US 30 before the tunnel bypass was constructed.  On it was located a traveler's rest stop called "Bill's Place" which was demolished for the new Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on February 02, 2020, 06:26:14 PM
And I have to say that if the Pike2Bike group takes over the whole ROW, there ought to be new parking areas along the turnpike where the old turnpike splits off. Something that would include a pedestrian/cycling bride over the turnpike between the two parking areas and bike racks both westbound and eastbound.

“Pike2Bike”  never was a formal group with the ability to take over anything–just a loose, informal association of nearby property owners who’d periodically volunteer to pick up debris or keep a lookout for dangerous conditions and illegal activity. From 2003 up through 2018, the Southern Alleghenies Conservancy had been the legal owner, but the organization didn’t have anywhere near the financial or human resources to actually do anything with the property. And perhaps more importantly, SAC was too small and too private to qualify for grants from numerous possible public sources, further dimming any prospects for either preservation or redevelopment.

So as a result, the governments of both Bedford and Fulton counties came together two years ago to form a joint recreational authority (BFJRA) having the capacity to take ownership of the Abandoned Turnpike from SAC for the purposes of redeveloping it. Plans include building parking areas and formal trailheads at both ends. The Breezewood parking area would be build on the currently PTC-owned stub behind the former Ramada Inn and a new pedestrian/bicycle bridge built over US 30 to connect it to the remainder of the property. Apparently, the BFJRA scored a $1 million grant last year (https://senatorjudyward.com/2019/08/05/topper-ward-langerholc-announce-funding-for-old-turnpike-bike-trail/).

Here is the (I believe current version of) the master plan (https://www.bedfordcountypa.org/document_center/Commissioners/TOPP%20Master%20Plan%20Update%20Report%2010_2018.pdf).

A couple of other things; The two links to Brian Troutman's Abandoned PA Turnpike...are dead

Do you know what URL it was linking to? My 15-year-old Abandoned Turnpike pages are still online (http://briantroutman.com/land/http:/briantroutman.com/land/highways/abandonedturnpike/). (Though they really need to be updated and overhauled–or put out of their misery.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on February 02, 2020, 09:17:55 PM
Speaking of the abandoned turnpike, it looks like some time between late September (when I was there) and whenever the below video was taken (posted this past January), the western portal of Rays Hill got some fresh surface course, a double yellow center line, and a pair of fog lines! Is this the start of some sort of full-scale resurfacing for the entire trail? I've also seen pictures from after September where new warning signs were posted on the tunnel faces.

(10:21 in)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: D-Dey65 on February 03, 2020, 12:21:23 AM
Do you know what URL it was linking to? My 15-year-old Abandoned Turnpike pages are still online (http://briantroutman.com/land/http:/briantroutman.com/land/highways/abandonedturnpike/). (Though they really need to be updated and overhauled–or put out of their misery.)
This one:
http://www.briantroutman.com/highways/abandonedpaturnpike

That other site that's not yours, I still have to check on.


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on February 06, 2020, 01:55:30 AM
I have a question regarding the Turnpike’s control cities. It seems PTC always uses cities that are quite far at tool booths. For example, at the Allegheny Valley interchange, they use Harrisburg and Ohio. To me, it would make much more sense to use Monroeville and Irwin instead of Harrisburg, and Cranberry and Beaver instead of Ohio. I could see even using Harrisburg and Ohio as the secondary city, but as primary cities, it just seems odd to me. Is there a reason for this? Also, I could be wrong, but doesn’t the MUTCD prohibit the use of state names as control cities?

https://goo.gl/maps/aCLFXrDeWGAxoWki7

Generally, most highway's entrance ramps don't list the next exit's towns.  Highways Control Cities are designed to direct people towards larger cities.


Westbound is slightly problematic because the Ohio Turnpike bypasses Youngstown, Akron, and Cleveland without serving any of them directly.

Note: The PA Turnpike doesn't serve Harrisburg directly either.  :cool:

It's not absolutely necessary for a highway to go into the control city's town.  Youngstown is decent, although I would prefer Cleveland, even though that involves continuing from I-76 to I-80.

In the Northeast and Midwest, I think it'd be good to double up on the control cities, honestly, due to the number of major and decent-sized cities. On the Turnpike in the Pittsburgh area, I'd double up and use Youngstown/Cleveland as the westbound control cities, and Harrisburg/Philadelphia as the eastbound control cities. Also, in the Philadelphia area, I'd double up and use Harrisburg/Pittsburgh as the westbound control cities. That way, you're tying both ends of the Commonwealth together.

In the Harrisburg area, though, only one control city is needed: Pittsburgh westbound and Philadelphia eastbound. Also, I'd drop Cleveland as a westbound control city in New Stanton. Cleveland doesn't need to become a control city until Pittsburgh. Washington PA/Columbus are fine as double control cities westbound on I-70, though, because Columbus is the next major city on the route.

Also, on I-376 eastbound near the Turnpike in Monroeville, a TO I-70 East Baltimore/Washington DC trailblazer is a good idea, as is a TO I-70 West Wheeling WV/Columbus trailblazer on I-376 westbound near I-79. Lastly, I'd rename Exits 28 and 57 on the Turnpike as Pittsburgh North and Pittsburgh East, respectively. :spin:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on February 06, 2020, 05:57:50 PM
I agree that two control cities might be a good idea in many places if sign space permits which is often not the case. But note, the MUTCD's specs call for a sign to show route shield, direction and next control city on the route, period. The purpose being just enough info with brevity to make the sign easily readable at highway speeds. And I agree that message overloading is a common problem in many areas of the country, especially around the big cities with complex interchanges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on February 06, 2020, 10:08:54 PM
I have a question regarding the Turnpike’s control cities. It seems PTC always uses cities that are quite far at tool booths. For example, at the Allegheny Valley interchange, they use Harrisburg and Ohio. To me, it would make much more sense to use Monroeville and Irwin instead of Harrisburg, and Cranberry and Beaver instead of Ohio. I could see even using Harrisburg and Ohio as the secondary city, but as primary cities, it just seems odd to me. Is there a reason for this? Also, I could be wrong, but doesn’t the MUTCD prohibit the use of state names as control cities?

https://goo.gl/maps/aCLFXrDeWGAxoWki7

Generally, most highway's entrance ramps don't list the next exit's towns.  Highways Control Cities are designed to direct people towards larger cities.


Westbound is slightly problematic because the Ohio Turnpike bypasses Youngstown, Akron, and Cleveland without serving any of them directly.

Note: The PA Turnpike doesn't serve Harrisburg directly either.  :cool:

It's not absolutely necessary for a highway to go into the control city's town.  Youngstown is decent, although I would prefer Cleveland, even though that involves continuing from I-76 to I-80.

In the Northeast and Midwest, I think it'd be good to double up on the control cities, honestly, due to the number of major and decent-sized cities. On the Turnpike in the Pittsburgh area, I'd double up and use Youngstown/Cleveland as the westbound control cities, and Harrisburg/Philadelphia as the eastbound control cities. Also, in the Philadelphia area, I'd double up and use Harrisburg/Pittsburgh as the westbound control cities. That way, you're tying both ends of the Commonwealth together.

In the Harrisburg area, though, only one control city is needed: Pittsburgh westbound and Philadelphia eastbound. Also, I'd drop Cleveland as a westbound control city in New Stanton. Cleveland doesn't need to become a control city until Pittsburgh. Washington PA/Columbus are fine as double control cities westbound on I-70, though, because Columbus is the next major city on the route.

Also, on I-376 eastbound near the Turnpike in Monroeville, a TO I-70 East Baltimore/Washington DC trailblazer is a good idea, as is a TO I-70 West Wheeling WV/Columbus trailblazer on I-376 westbound near I-79. Lastly, I'd rename Exits 28 and 57 on the Turnpike as Pittsburgh North and Pittsburgh East, respectively. :spin:

The PTC actually did that for a while at the Norristown and Valley Forge entrances, in fact tripling up ("Harrisburg/Pittsburgh/and Ohio").  Didn't somebody on this forum link one of those signs a while back?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on February 06, 2020, 11:59:01 PM
Good news: Three weeks ago, there was a public meeting about the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel project (https://www.patpconstruction.com/allegtunn/media/Allegheny%20Tunnel%20Jan%2016%202020%20Public%20Display%20Boards.pdf) in Somerset. They now have the exact alignments for all three corridors designed, both as a "cut" and a tunnel, and color coded: brown for a north alignment, gray for the south alignment, and yellow for an alignment closest to the existing tunnel.

The brown tunnel would be the most expensive tunnel to construct, and the brown cut would be the most expensive cut to construct. The gray tunnel would be the least expensive tunnel to construct, and the yellow cut would be the least expensive cut to construct. The yellow tunnel would be the most expensive tunnel to maintain, but the yellow cut would be the least expensive cut to maintain. The gray tunnel would be the least expensive tunnel to maintain, but the gray cut would be the most expensive cut to maintain.

Finally, there appears to be some real movement on this project after five or six years of delays.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on February 07, 2020, 12:29:11 AM
Good news: Three weeks ago, there was a public meeting about the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel project (https://www.patpconstruction.com/allegtunn/media/Allegheny%20Tunnel%20Jan%2016%202020%20Public%20Display%20Boards.pdf) in Somerset. They now have the exact alignments for all three corridors designed, both as a "cut" and a tunnel, and color coded: brown for a north alignment, gray for the south alignment, and yellow for an alignment closest to the existing tunnel.

The brown tunnel would be the most expensive tunnel to construct, and the brown cut would be the most expensive cut to construct. The gray tunnel would be the least expensive tunnel to construct, and the yellow cut would be the least expensive cut to construct. The yellow tunnel would be the most expensive tunnel to maintain, but the yellow cut would be the least expensive cut to maintain. The gray tunnel would be the least expensive tunnel to maintain, but the gray cut would be the most expensive cut to maintain.

Finally, there appears to be some real movement on this project after five or six years of delays.
Cuts don't require much money to maintain if done properly. Gray seems to be the most environmentally conscious and yellow seems to be the straightest. Brown is in there to show they looked at three alternatives. I find it interesting they need a new tunnel here. They have two tunnels. I see the curves, but really?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on February 07, 2020, 05:05:54 AM
Good news: Three weeks ago, there was a public meeting about the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel project (https://www.patpconstruction.com/allegtunn/media/Allegheny%20Tunnel%20Jan%2016%202020%20Public%20Display%20Boards.pdf) in Somerset. They now have the exact alignments for all three corridors designed, both as a "cut" and a tunnel, and color coded: brown for a north alignment, gray for the south alignment, and yellow for an alignment closest to the existing tunnel.

The brown tunnel would be the most expensive tunnel to construct, and the brown cut would be the most expensive cut to construct. The gray tunnel would be the least expensive tunnel to construct, and the yellow cut would be the least expensive cut to construct. The yellow tunnel would be the most expensive tunnel to maintain, but the yellow cut would be the least expensive cut to maintain. The gray tunnel would be the least expensive tunnel to maintain, but the gray cut would be the most expensive cut to maintain.

Finally, there appears to be some real movement on this project after five or six years of delays.
Cuts don't require much money to maintain if done properly. Gray seems to be the most environmentally conscious and yellow seems to be the straightest. Brown is in there to show they looked at three alternatives. I find it interesting they need a new tunnel here. They have two tunnels. I see the curves, but really?

The existing tunnel is a bottleneck during the summer travel season. They want to expand the Turnpike to six lanes. They can't do that with the existing tunnel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 07, 2020, 05:56:37 AM
Good news: Three weeks ago, there was a public meeting about the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel project (https://www.patpconstruction.com/allegtunn/media/Allegheny%20Tunnel%20Jan%2016%202020%20Public%20Display%20Boards.pdf) in Somerset. They now have the exact alignments for all three corridors designed, both as a "cut" and a tunnel, and color coded: brown for a north alignment, gray for the south alignment, and yellow for an alignment closest to the existing tunnel.
Those cuts are massive and in the range of where tunnels are chosen instead.

The Brown Cut is 9.7 million cubic yards of excavation, 199 feet deep and $384 million.
The Grey Cut is 18.4 million cubic yards of excavation, 249 feet deep and $332 million.
The Yellow Cut is 25.4 million cubic yards of excavation, 400 feet deep and $378 million.

Then the question is where does all that excavation go, can they somehow balance the cuts and fills on the project? 

Like to see renderings of what they would look like from various vantage points, it might look horrendous due to the massive size.

The Yellow Tunnel has 1 million cubic yards of excavation and costs $702 million.  Maybe worth the extra cost.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 07, 2020, 07:03:00 AM
Finally, there appears to be some real movement on this project after five or six years of delays.

It has been talked about off-and-on since the mid-1990s (https://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter12").
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on February 07, 2020, 08:46:16 AM
This would explain the early placement of the MP-128 to 134 full 6 lane rebuild getting an early placement, 2022, on the newest capital plan.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on February 07, 2020, 12:43:25 PM
It'll be interesting to see if one of the tunnel alternatives is chosen, since that would be the first pair of three-lane tunnel tubes in not just the Turnpike system, but the entire state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on February 07, 2020, 01:24:39 PM
The slides include the gray cut alternative at the end in addition to where they're depicting all of them, so I would assume that it's the preferred alternative.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2020, 01:52:26 PM
The slides include the gray cut alternative at the end in addition to where they're depicting all of them, so I would assume that it's the preferred alternative.

Yeah, that's what I believe too.  The slide was a bit vague in that regard, but I'd believe the speaking portion of the public presentation probably made this a lot clearer.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 07, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
The slides include the gray cut alternative at the end in addition to where they're depicting all of them, so I would assume that it's the preferred alternative.
I would hope not.

I can't imagine what a cut of 18 million cubic yards of excavation, 250 feet deep, over a mile of route, would look like.  That is 5 times the cubic yards of the Sideling Hill Cut on I-68.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on February 09, 2020, 07:11:25 PM
Finally, there appears to be some real movement on this project after five or six years of delays.

It has been talked about off-and-on since the mid-1990s (https://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter12").

They haven't had design details until now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PAHighways on February 09, 2020, 07:36:47 PM
It's all been done before:  5 alternatives proposed in the '90s shown on the map on my Turnpike page via the link, and 6 back in 2013 to name a few.  All of them ended up getting shelved after a certain period of time, which is why I am cautiously optimistic over these newest alternatives.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on February 09, 2020, 09:20:27 PM
Finally, there appears to be some real movement on this project after five or six years of delays.

It has been talked about off-and-on since the mid-1990s (https://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter12").

They haven't had design details until now.
It's all been done before:  5 alternatives proposed in the '90s shown on the map on my Turnpike page via the link, and 6 back in 2013 to name a few.  All of them ended up getting shelved after a certain period of time, which is why I am cautiously optimistic over these newest alternatives.

The Turnpike won't do the tunnels because of money, and there's a local sportsmen's group that doesn't want a highway cut to disturb the area.  No doubt there will be legal action added to the PTC's financial difficulties to delay this a bit longer.

I wonder if an alternative was ever considered that proposed using the two existing tunnels for one direction, and a new 3-lane tunnel for the other.  For example, use the current westbound tunnel for trucks, the current eastbound tunnel for westbound cars, and a new tunnel for eastbound traffic. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 09, 2020, 09:36:35 PM
The Turnpike won't do the tunnels because of money, and there's a local sportsmen's group that doesn't want a highway cut to disturb the area.  No doubt there will be legal action added to the PTC's financial difficulties to delay this a bit longer.
I see that there is a 7-mile widening project in design just west of the Tuscarora Tunnel --

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp180to186/
PROJECT SUMMARY: Total reconstruction and widening to three lanes in each direction from the Fort Littleton Interchange to the Tuscarora Tunnel.
. . . . . . . .

The Tuscarora Tunnel itself has a major rehab project under construction --

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp186tunnel/
This $110M project provides for the rehabilitation of Tuscarora Tunnel and portal buildings including upgrade of fire/life safety/ communication systems, upgrade of electrical systems including new back-up generators, new ventilation system, new lighting system, mechanical upgrades and new Tunnel Control System.  Scope of work also includes improvements of the entrances to tunnels.
. . . . . . . .

So this would indicate that there are no plans to replace this tunnel with an open cut or with new 3-lane tunnels, even though there are plans to widen the highway just to the west.

I wonder what the long range plans are here?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on February 09, 2020, 09:46:35 PM
The Turnpike won't do the tunnels because of money, and there's a local sportsmen's group that doesn't want a highway cut to disturb the area.  No doubt there will be legal action added to the PTC's financial difficulties to delay this a bit longer.
I see that there is a 7-mile widening project in design just west of the Tuscarora Tunnel --

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp180to186/
PROJECT SUMMARY: Total reconstruction and widening to three lanes in each direction from the Fort Littleton Interchange to the Tuscarora Tunnel.
. . . . . . . .

The Tuscarora Tunnel itself has a major rehab project under construction --

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp186tunnel/
This $110M project provides for the rehabilitation of Tuscarora Tunnel and portal buildings including upgrade of fire/life safety/ communication systems, upgrade of electrical systems including new back-up generators, new ventilation system, new lighting system, mechanical upgrades and new Tunnel Control System.  Scope of work also includes improvements of the entrances to tunnels.
. . . . . . . .

So this would indicate that there are no plans to replace this tunnel with an open cut or with new 3-lane tunnels, even though there are plans to widen the highway just to the west.

I wonder what the long range plans are here?

I believe the section east of the Tuscarora Tunnel to the Kittatinny/Blue Mountain Tunnels was reconstructed about 15 years ago.  With all this being said, it looks like the Tuscarora Tunnel is here to stay for a while.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 09, 2020, 10:56:22 PM
So this would indicate that there are no plans to replace this tunnel with an open cut or with new 3-lane tunnels, even though there are plans to widen the highway just to the west.  I wonder what the long range plans are here?
I believe the section east of the Tuscarora Tunnel to the Kittatinny/Blue Mountain Tunnels was reconstructed about 15 years ago.  With all this being said, it looks like the Tuscarora Tunnel is here to stay for a while.
On Google Maps it looks like the original turnpike.  But sometimes their photography is not fully up to date.

What about the two tunnels near Blue Mountain, I can't find anything online about replacing them.  From just east of there (about 1/2 mile) all the way to Carlisle has been rebuilt to 6 lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on February 10, 2020, 03:49:53 AM
The Turnpike won't do the tunnels because of money, and there's a local sportsmen's group that doesn't want a highway cut to disturb the area.  No doubt there will be legal action added to the PTC's financial difficulties to delay this a bit longer.
I see that there is a 7-mile widening project in design just west of the Tuscarora Tunnel --

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp180to186/
PROJECT SUMMARY: Total reconstruction and widening to three lanes in each direction from the Fort Littleton Interchange to the Tuscarora Tunnel.
. . . . . . . .

The Tuscarora Tunnel itself has a major rehab project under construction --

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp186tunnel/
This $110M project provides for the rehabilitation of Tuscarora Tunnel and portal buildings including upgrade of fire/life safety/ communication systems, upgrade of electrical systems including new back-up generators, new ventilation system, new lighting system, mechanical upgrades and new Tunnel Control System.  Scope of work also includes improvements of the entrances to tunnels.
. . . . . . . .

So this would indicate that there are no plans to replace this tunnel with an open cut or with new 3-lane tunnels, even though there are plans to widen the highway just to the west.

I wonder what the long range plans are here?

My guess is that the segment between the Tuscarora Tunnel and the Blue Mountain Tunnel will remain four lanes while the rest of the Turnpike will be widened to six lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on February 10, 2020, 05:04:21 AM
So this would indicate that there are no plans to replace this tunnel with an open cut or with new 3-lane tunnels, even though there are plans to widen the highway just to the west.  I wonder what the long range plans are here?
I believe the section east of the Tuscarora Tunnel to the Kittatinny/Blue Mountain Tunnels was reconstructed about 15 years ago.  With all this being said, it looks like the Tuscarora Tunnel is here to stay for a while.
On Google Maps it looks like the original turnpike.  But sometimes their photography is not fully up to date.

What about the two tunnels near Blue Mountain, I can't find anything online about replacing them.  From just east of there (about 1/2 mile) all the way to Carlisle has been rebuilt to 6 lanes.

The earliest Turnpike reconstruction projects did not involve widening.  Such would include MP 38-40 (the short 4-lane section at the Butler Valley interchange), MP 75-99, MP 109-121, and MP 186-199.

https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/travel/Total_Recon_2019.pdf

If I had to guess, the next set of tunnels to see work after the Allegheny Tunnel will be the Lehigh Tunnel...backups are common there on weekends with traffic to/from the Poconos.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 10, 2020, 07:54:56 AM
So this would indicate that there are no plans to replace this tunnel with an open cut or with new 3-lane tunnels, even though there are plans to widen the highway just to the west.
I wonder what the long range plans are here?
My guess is that the segment between the Tuscarora Tunnel and the Blue Mountain Tunnel will remain four lanes while the rest of the Turnpike will be widened to six lanes.
My hope would be that if the traffic needs are for 6 lanes between Fort Littleton and Carlisle, that they would widen that area between the Tuscarora Tunnel and the Blue Mountain Tunnel inclusive.

The earliest Turnpike reconstruction projects did not involve widening.  Such would include MP 38-40 (the short 4-lane section at the Butler Valley interchange), MP 75-99, MP 109-121, and MP 186-199.
https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/travel/Total_Recon_2019.pdf
The MP 186-199 was 61 years old in 2001, and it had aged out by then.

If I had to guess, the next set of tunnels to see work after the Allegheny Tunnel will be the Lehigh Tunnel...backups are common there on weekends with traffic to/from the Poconos.
Nothing in design yet for 6 lane widening north of Quakertown.   I don't know why they would expand the tunnels to 6 lanes if the adjoining highway wasn't widened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2020, 08:56:41 AM
I wonder if an alternative was ever considered that proposed using the two existing tunnels for one direction, and a new 3-lane tunnel for the other.  For example, use the current westbound tunnel for trucks, the current eastbound tunnel for westbound cars, and a new tunnel for eastbound traffic. 

To build a tunnel correctly they should really be adding shoulders.  As it stands now, the 2 lanes in the tunnels are narrow or feel narrow, which contributes to motorists slowing down.  And without permission to pass, it just clogs up the lanes.

Unless the tunnels were to be approximately 5 lanes wide (3 travel lanes, 2 full shoulders), they should be skipped.  And tunnels that wide are surely gonna be unjustifiably costly with other, non-tunnel options available.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 10, 2020, 10:43:20 AM
To build a tunnel correctly they should really be adding shoulders.  As it stands now, the 2 lanes in the tunnels are narrow or feel narrow, which contributes to motorists slowing down.  And without permission to pass, it just clogs up the lanes.
Unless the tunnels were to be approximately 5 lanes wide (3 travel lanes, 2 full shoulders), they should be skipped.  And tunnels that wide are surely gonna be unjustifiably costly with other, non-tunnel options available.
I don't know of any mountain tunnels in the U.S. of a mile long or more, having full continuous shoulders.  Modern incident management systems have at least partly alleviated the need.

It has been and most likely is deemed as being too expensive to build, plus having that much more spoil excavation material that has to be disposed of somewhere.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2020, 11:03:43 AM
To build a tunnel correctly they should really be adding shoulders.  As it stands now, the 2 lanes in the tunnels are narrow or feel narrow, which contributes to motorists slowing down.  And without permission to pass, it just clogs up the lanes.
Unless the tunnels were to be approximately 5 lanes wide (3 travel lanes, 2 full shoulders), they should be skipped.  And tunnels that wide are surely gonna be unjustifiably costly with other, non-tunnel options available.
I don't know of any mountain tunnels in the U.S. of a mile long or more, having full continuous shoulders.  Modern incident management systems have at least partly alleviated the need.

Neither do I.  However, what I was referring to doesn't have anything to do with incidents.  It has to do with people's insecurities, especially when it comes to claustrophobia. Enclosed areas freak some drivers out, and they start slowing down.  They may enter at or above the speed limit, but by the time they get to the other side they've slowed down to 40 or 45 mph.  Happens all the time in these tunnels.  And once they slow down, everyone behind them is forced to slow down.  On heavily traveled weekend and holiday periods, congestion is quite common in many of these tunnels, even though it's the same number of lanes before and after the tunnels.

And when an incident does occur, it's not easy to deal with.  If something blocks the entire tunnel, there's only one way emergency personnel can easily get to it - via the opposing direction.  There's no option to ride the shoulder in a tunnel; no option to have people move over in the tunnel.  If the police are far away, or dealing with another incident, it can be a while before they can get to the incident within the tunnel.

Even when bypassing/cutting the mountain is more expensive up-front than building a tunnel, there are numerous other benefits that can outweigh the inconvenience of a tunnel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 10, 2020, 11:34:02 AM
However, what I was referring to doesn't have anything to do with incidents.  It has to do with people's insecurities, especially when it comes to claustrophobia. Enclosed areas freak some drivers out, and they start slowing down.  They may enter at or above the speed limit, but by the time they get to the other side they've slowed down to 40 or 45 mph.  Happens all the time in these tunnels.  And once they slow down, everyone behind them is forced to slow down.  On heavily traveled weekend and holiday periods, congestion is quite common in many of these tunnels, even though it's the same number of lanes before and after the tunnels.
That is an inherent problem with tunnels.  They are needed, but due to cross-sectional issues, even a 3-lane tube with the typical round cross-section creates wasted space.

And when an incident does occur, it's not easy to deal with.  If something blocks the entire tunnel, there's only one way emergency personnel can easily get to it - via the opposing direction.  There's no option to ride the shoulder in a tunnel; no option to have people move over in the tunnel.  If the police are far away, or dealing with another incident, it can be a while before they can get to the incident within the tunnel.
The current state-of-the-art is for that tunnel to have its own incident management system, vehicles and crew, so that they can arrive within a few minutes.

Even when bypassing/cutting the mountain is more expensive up-front than building a tunnel, there are numerous other benefits that can outweigh the inconvenience of a tunnel.
In general, yes, but the Alleghany three open cut alternatives are massive, in terms of cubic yards of excavation, 10 million, 18 million and 25 million.

That may be far more massive than will be accepted by the public and the resource agencies.  The data I saw on the project site didn't seem to say how much surplus excavation that would create and where it would be deposited.

I-68 Sideling Hill is 3.5 million for comparison, and even there a tunnel was seriously considered.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on February 10, 2020, 12:14:28 PM
That is an inherent problem with tunnels.  They are needed, but due to cross-sectional issues, even a 3-lane tube with the typical round cross-section creates wasted space.

Elliptical cross-sections for highway tunnels are pretty much the norm these days, though this still entails a certain amount of wasted space.

I wonder if the cost for the tunnel options reflects opportunities for amortization of a TBM over multiple contracts (which can significantly influence the cost) and includes capitalization of operating and incident management costs.

In general, yes, but the Alleghany three open cut alternatives are massive, in terms of cubic yards of excavation, 10 million, 18 million and 25 million.

That may be far more massive than will be accepted by the public and the resource agencies.  The data I saw on the project site didn't seem to say how much surplus excavation that would create and where it would be deposited.

The PDF linked to implies that permitting considerations influenced the choice of the apparently preferred alternative.  My question is whether they have taken into account the possibility of acid rock in the excavation, which would have the potential to lead to a replay of the I-99 acid rock disposal debacle.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 10, 2020, 02:28:40 PM
That is an inherent problem with tunnels.  They are needed, but due to cross-sectional issues, even a 3-lane tube with the typical round cross-section creates wasted space.
Elliptical cross-sections for highway tunnels are pretty much the norm these days, though this still entails a certain amount of wasted space.
I've looked around and haven't found any for bored tunnels; there may be, but for example the Seattle tunnel and the bored Hampton Roads tunnel alternatives utilized a round cross-section as that best resists the enormous pressures underground.

I wonder if the cost for the tunnel options reflects opportunities for amortization of a TBM over multiple contracts (which can significantly influence the cost) and includes capitalization of operating and incident management costs.
Good questions.

In general, yes, but the Alleghany three open cut alternatives are massive, in terms of cubic yards of excavation, 10 million, 18 million and 25 million.
That may be far more massive than will be accepted by the public and the resource agencies.  The data I saw on the project site didn't seem to say how much surplus excavation that would create and where it would be deposited.
The PDF linked to implies that permitting considerations influenced the choice of the apparently preferred alternative.  My question is whether they have taken into account the possibility of acid rock in the excavation, which would have the potential to lead to a replay of the I-99 acid rock disposal debacle.
The implied alternative may be the one with 18 million cubic yards.  Staggering to even think of a cut that large over 1 mile of highway.

Of course they have been toying with this project for over 20 years of studies and have not yet officially declared.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2020, 02:57:23 PM
Of course they have been toying with this project for over 20 years of studies and have not yet officially declared.

Same agency that took 30 years to begin working to construction 25% of a relatively common interchange with 95.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on February 10, 2020, 04:18:28 PM
Of course they have been toying with this project for over 20 years of studies and have not yet officially declared.

Same agency that took 30 years to begin working to construction 25% of a relatively common interchange with 95.
Like, what do you even expect from them?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on February 10, 2020, 08:43:25 PM
So this would indicate that there are no plans to replace this tunnel with an open cut or with new 3-lane tunnels, even though there are plans to widen the highway just to the west.  I wonder what the long range plans are here?
I believe the section east of the Tuscarora Tunnel to the Kittatinny/Blue Mountain Tunnels was reconstructed about 15 years ago.  With all this being said, it looks like the Tuscarora Tunnel is here to stay for a while.
On Google Maps it looks like the original turnpike.  But sometimes their photography is not fully up to date.

What about the two tunnels near Blue Mountain, I can't find anything online about replacing them.  From just east of there (about 1/2 mile) all the way to Carlisle has been rebuilt to 6 lanes.

The earliest Turnpike reconstruction projects did not involve widening.  Such would include MP 38-40 (the short 4-lane section at the Butler Valley interchange), MP 75-99, MP 109-121, and MP 186-199.

https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/travel/Total_Recon_2019.pdf

If I had to guess, the next set of tunnels to see work after the Allegheny Tunnel will be the Lehigh Tunnel...backups are common there on weekends with traffic to/from the Poconos.

I wonder if they are leaving the option open for just adding 3rd tubes and making one of the other older tubes a reversible-direction tunnel?  That is something that CDOT in Colorado has occasionally mulled over regarding the Eisenhower/Johnson Tunnels over the Divide.

CDOT has proven that you CAN widen a 2-lane tunnel with the Veterans Memorial Tunnels near Idaho Springs.  However those tunnels are much shorter than the one on the Penna Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 10, 2020, 08:57:21 PM
CDOT has proven that you CAN widen a 2-lane tunnel with the Veterans Memorial Tunnels near Idaho Springs.  However those tunnels are much shorter than the one on the Penna Turnpike.
Shorter, like 730 feet long, and they had an easily constructible detour around the hill that the tunnel passes thru.

One idea that I have for the Turnpike tunnels, rather than build two new 3-lane tubes, build one new 3-lane tube, move that directional traffic there, close one of the older tunnels, bore it out and reline it to 3-lane size, and then move that directional traffic there.

That way only one older tunnel would need to be abandoned.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on February 10, 2020, 09:33:51 PM
I've looked around and haven't found any for bored tunnels; there may be, but for example the Seattle tunnel and the bored Hampton Roads tunnel alternatives utilized a round cross-section as that best resists the enormous pressures underground.

I've downloaded a bunch of expressway construction plans for Gansu province, China, and as far as I can tell, they are using only elliptical cross-sections for mountain tunnels.  I think the Germans are also using an elliptical cross-section for the A44 Sontra tunnel (part of the Kassel-Herleshausen "missing link").  They did use a circular cross-section for the A7 Elbe Tunnel fourth bore, as did the Spanish for all four bores of the SE-40 tunnel--both of these were subaqueous projects.

Since this is a mountain location, I'm betting the Turnpike Commission will go with an elliptical cross-section if they develop the tunnel alternatives any further, which they may not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 10, 2020, 09:45:15 PM
I've looked around and haven't found any for bored tunnels; there may be, but for example the Seattle tunnel and the bored Hampton Roads tunnel alternatives utilized a round cross-section as that best resists the enormous pressures underground.
I've downloaded a bunch of expressway construction plans for Gansu province, China, and as far as I can tell, they are using only elliptical cross-sections for mountain tunnels.  I think the Germans are also using an elliptical cross-section for the A44 Sontra tunnel (part of the Kassel-Herleshausen "missing link").  They did use a circular cross-section for the A7 Elbe Tunnel fourth bore, as did the Spanish for all four bores of the SE-40 tunnel--both of these were subaqueous projects.
How many lanes?  A 2-lane tunnel roadway has about 26 feet of horizontal clearance and 16 feet of vertical clearance, so generally that would fit in a circular cross-section.

For 3 or 4 lanes, the circular cross-section would waste a lot of space.  With 4 directional lanes the configuration of two 2-lane tubes can be utilized.

Since this is a mountain location, I'm betting the Turnpike Commission will go with an elliptical cross-section if they develop the tunnel alternatives any further, which they may not.
The shield-driven TBM is by nature a circular device in cross-section.  Seems like an elliptical cross-section would need a lot of shaping and work after the passage of possibly 2 TBMs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on February 10, 2020, 11:10:09 PM
How many lanes?  A 2-lane tunnel roadway has about 26 feet of horizontal clearance and 16 feet of vertical clearance, so generally that would fit in a circular cross-section.

All of these projects have been two lanes per tube.  The A7 Elbe tunnel fourth bore additionally has a shoulder (the other three bores do not).

The shield-driven TBM is by nature a circular device in cross-section.  Seems like an elliptical cross-section would need a lot of shaping and work after the passage of possibly 2 TBMs.

Yes.  An alternative is to use a roadheader, which is not limited to a circular cross-section.  This is what Caltrans did for the Caldecott Tunnel fourth bore, which was finished in 2013.

https://mtc.ca.gov/sites/default/files/Tunneling_FactSheet.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 10, 2020, 11:27:12 PM
The shield-driven TBM is by nature a circular device in cross-section.  Seems like an elliptical cross-section would need a lot of shaping and work after the passage of possibly 2 TBMs.
Yes.  An alternative is to use a roadheader, which is not limited to a circular cross-section.  This is what Caltrans did for the Caldecott Tunnel fourth bore, which was finished in 2013.
https://mtc.ca.gov/sites/default/files/Tunneling_FactSheet.pdf
https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/exhibits/caltrans/fourthbore2.php
Image near the bottom of the webpage.

Not quite what I was picturing … generally elliptical above the roadway but somewhat flattened below the roadway.

Modern jet fan systems also obviate the need for plenum chambers above and below the roadway chamber, and that allows a lower height cross-section.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on February 11, 2020, 07:16:36 PM
CDOT has proven that you CAN widen a 2-lane tunnel with the Veterans Memorial Tunnels near Idaho Springs.  However those tunnels are much shorter than the one on the Penna Turnpike.
Shorter, like 730 feet long, and they had an easily constructible detour around the hill that the tunnel passes thru.

One idea that I have for the Turnpike tunnels, rather than build two new 3-lane tubes, build one new 3-lane tube, move that directional traffic there, close one of the older tunnels, bore it out and reline it to 3-lane size, and then move that directional traffic there.

That way only one older tunnel would need to be abandoned.

 
I wonder if an alternative was ever considered that proposed using the two existing tunnels for one direction, and a new 3-lane tunnel for the other.  For example, use the current westbound tunnel for trucks, the current eastbound tunnel for westbound cars, and a new tunnel for eastbound traffic. 

Too bad neither of these ideas are in the list of alternatives.  Makes sense to me to use as much existing infrastructure as possible.  I wonder if the PTC ever considered either of these options, and if they did, what the reasons were for dismissing them.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2020, 08:12:44 PM
CDOT has proven that you CAN widen a 2-lane tunnel with the Veterans Memorial Tunnels near Idaho Springs.  However those tunnels are much shorter than the one on the Penna Turnpike.
Shorter, like 730 feet long, and they had an easily constructible detour around the hill that the tunnel passes thru.

One idea that I have for the Turnpike tunnels, rather than build two new 3-lane tubes, build one new 3-lane tube, move that directional traffic there, close one of the older tunnels, bore it out and reline it to 3-lane size, and then move that directional traffic there.

That way only one older tunnel would need to be abandoned.

 
I wonder if an alternative was ever considered that proposed using the two existing tunnels for one direction, and a new 3-lane tunnel for the other.  For example, use the current westbound tunnel for trucks, the current eastbound tunnel for westbound cars, and a new tunnel for eastbound traffic. 

Too bad neither of these ideas are in the list of alternatives.  Makes sense to me to use as much existing infrastructure as possible.  I wonder if the PTC ever considered either of these options, and if they did, what the reasons were for dismissing them.
 

Probably undersized for modern standards. Maintenance costs are much higher. Remember than many if these tunnels were originally designed as train tunnels, so there may be other issues not visible and unknown to the general public.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 11, 2020, 09:39:07 PM
I wonder if an alternative was ever considered that proposed using the two existing tunnels for one direction, and a new 3-lane tunnel for the other.  For example, use the current westbound tunnel for trucks, the current eastbound tunnel for westbound cars, and a new tunnel for eastbound traffic. 
Too bad neither of these ideas are in the list of alternatives.  Makes sense to me to use as much existing infrastructure as possible.  I wonder if the PTC ever considered either of these options, and if they did, what the reasons were for dismissing them.
Probably undersized for modern standards. Maintenance costs are much higher. Remember than many if these tunnels were originally designed as train tunnels, so there may be other issues not visible and unknown to the general public.
Maybe so, but I believe that they have 24-foot roadways.

Another alternative would be to build two new 2-lane tubes, and rehab the existing tubes, so there would be 8 lanes on 4 separate tubes.  They would have 8 lanes for sometime when needed in the future, and the approach turnpike would be widened to 6 lanes in the near future.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on February 12, 2020, 11:33:04 AM
Probably undersized for modern standards. Maintenance costs are much higher. Remember than many if these tunnels were originally designed as train tunnels, so there may be other issues not visible and unknown to the general public.

To an extent. The borings may have been reused (I think for one tunnel that was the case) but the tunnels were all but rebuilt inside and outside.

In the case of this particular tunnel in question, there is an abandoned railroad tunnel that wasn't used just to the north. You can see them at https://www.steamphotos.com/Railroad-Photos/Abandoned-Railroad-Tunnels/South-Penn-Railroad-Tunnels-Abandoned-Pennsylvania-Turnpike/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on February 18, 2020, 09:52:46 AM
Does the Turnpike use internal letter designations for the extensions?  I recall seeing somewhere the the Northeast Extension is A, and the Mon Fayette is M.  PA Tpk 576 seems to be S per the toll guide.

What are the letters, if so, for PA Tpk 66 and 376?

I noticed the last time I was on I-70 between I-76 and US 30 at Breezewood that 70 still has the older style tiny mile markers preceded with BC -- presumably Breezewood Connector.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on February 18, 2020, 10:23:42 AM
Does the Turnpike use internal letter designations for the extensions?  I recall seeing somewhere the the Northeast Extension is A, and the Mon Fayette is M.  PA Tpk 576 seems to be S per the toll guide.

Yes--the PTC uses internal letter designations for the mainline (T) as well as the extensions.  They also form part of contract numbers for contracts that are specific to particular segments of road.

I don't know the letters for 66 or 376.  There haven't been any recent PTC contracts involving them (the I-376 redesignation was a PennDOT project), and the mile markers are not helpful.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on February 18, 2020, 05:21:10 PM
Does the Turnpike use internal letter designations for the extensions?  I recall seeing somewhere the the Northeast Extension is A, and the Mon Fayette is M.  PA Tpk 576 seems to be S per the toll guide.

Yes--the PTC uses internal letter designations for the mainline (T) as well as the extensions.  They also form part of contract numbers for contracts that are specific to particular segments of road.

I don't know the letters for 66 or 376.  There haven't been any recent PTC contracts involving them (the I-376 redesignation was a PennDOT project), and the mile markers are not helpful.
Very cool, thanks!

I did some digging -- 376/Beaver Valley is B RFP 100983 (https://www.paturnpike.com/OUTPUT/PDFs/RFPs/100983.pdf)

66/Amos Hutchison is G -- page 14
Aug2018 Meeting (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/about/meetings/08212018_Agenda.pdf)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 19, 2020, 06:54:16 PM
Be advised the 24 hour Tuscarora Tunnel closures start this weekend

[tweet]1230247921926492160[/tweet]
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 19, 2020, 08:57:41 PM
Be advised the 24 hour Tuscarora Tunnel closures start this weekend
Each closure will be 8 p.m. to 9 a.m. the next morning --

Starting Tuesday, Dec. 3 from 8 p.m. to Friday Dec. 6 at 9 a.m., crews will implement nightly traffic stoppages of no more than 15 minutes in both directions to establish a crossover pattern, directing all traffic into the eastbound tunnel.  By 8 p.m. each night, the westbound tunnel will be closed and all traffic diverted into the eastbound tunnel until 9 a.m. when the patterns are lifted.

The following week, weekly nighttime crossovers will begin Sunday, Dec. 8 from 8 p.m. to Friday, Dec. 13 at 9 a.m.  This will occur at night each week – Sunday to Friday from 8 p.m. to 9 a.m. – through January.


https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20191202120505.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 20, 2020, 09:37:50 PM
Be advised the 24 hour Tuscarora Tunnel closures start this weekend
Each closure will be 8 p.m. to 9 a.m. the next morning --

Starting Tuesday, Dec. 3 from 8 p.m. to Friday Dec. 6 at 9 a.m., crews will implement nightly traffic stoppages of no more than 15 minutes in both directions to establish a crossover pattern, directing all traffic into the eastbound tunnel.  By 8 p.m. each night, the westbound tunnel will be closed and all traffic diverted into the eastbound tunnel until 9 a.m. when the patterns are lifted.

The following week, weekly nighttime crossovers will begin Sunday, Dec. 8 from 8 p.m. to Friday, Dec. 13 at 9 a.m.  This will occur at night each week – Sunday to Friday from 8 p.m. to 9 a.m. – through January.


https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20191202120505.htm

That was the last stage.  This stage is continuous closures from 9 PM Sunday to Noon Friday.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200220151650.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 20, 2020, 10:03:59 PM
Starting Tuesday, Dec. 3 from 8 p.m. to Friday Dec. 6 at 9 a.m., crews will implement nightly traffic stoppages of no more than 15 minutes in both directions to establish a crossover pattern, directing all traffic into the eastbound tunnel.  By 8 p.m. each night, the westbound tunnel will be closed and all traffic diverted into the eastbound tunnel until 9 a.m. when the patterns are lifted.
The following week, weekly nighttime crossovers will begin Sunday, Dec. 8 from 8 p.m. to Friday, Dec. 13 at 9 a.m.  This will occur at night each week – Sunday to Friday from 8 p.m. to 9 a.m. – through January.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20191202120505.htm
That was the last stage.  This stage is continuous closures from 9 PM Sunday to Noon Friday.
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200220151650.htm

So closed for 6 1/2  24-hour days?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 22, 2020, 08:34:18 PM
Starting Tuesday, Dec. 3 from 8 p.m. to Friday Dec. 6 at 9 a.m., crews will implement nightly traffic stoppages of no more than 15 minutes in both directions to establish a crossover pattern, directing all traffic into the eastbound tunnel.  By 8 p.m. each night, the westbound tunnel will be closed and all traffic diverted into the eastbound tunnel until 9 a.m. when the patterns are lifted.
The following week, weekly nighttime crossovers will begin Sunday, Dec. 8 from 8 p.m. to Friday, Dec. 13 at 9 a.m.  This will occur at night each week – Sunday to Friday from 8 p.m. to 9 a.m. – through January.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2019/20191202120505.htm
That was the last stage.  This stage is continuous closures from 9 PM Sunday to Noon Friday.
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200220151650.htm

So closed for 6 1/2  24-hour days?

More like 4 1/2 days a week.  Full access restored for weekend travel.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on February 26, 2020, 12:52:41 AM
Some posters in another roads forum complained about this being pay-walled, so I am posting the entire article.

This is the Grey Cut alternative, and has 18.4 million cubic yards of excavation, 249 feet deep and costs $332 million.

Nothing in the article about the massive size of this cut.

The question is where does all that excavation go, can they somehow balance the cuts and fills on the project? 

Like to see renderings of what it would look like from various vantage points, it might look horrendous due to the massive size.

I can't imagine what a cut of 18 million cubic yards of excavation, 250 feet deep, over a mile of route, would look like.  That is 5 times the cubic yards of the Sideling Hill Cut on I-68.

This is truly the "tunnel territory" for such a transportation barrier.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Pennsylvania Turnpike moving ahead with new road to bypass Allegheny Tunnel in Somerset County
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Feb 23, 2020 6:00 AM
 
After identifying serious shortcomings with the Pennsylvania Turnpike’s Allegheny Tunnel in Somerset County nearly 25 years ago, the agency has settled on a preferred plan to build a new road around the existing structure.

But don’t count on driving on the proposed $332.4 million bypass road south of the tunnel any time soon. The project is going through environmental review now, followed by three to four years of design and – once the agency finds the money – about three years for construction.

A quick history lesson on the project: In 1995, turnpike inspectors identified a series of problems with the tunnel. Those included the condition of the tunnel; high traffic volume and accident rates; sharp curves approaching from the west that no longer meet design standards; and the fact that trucks carrying hazardous loads aren’t permitted in the tunnel.

Like many road projects, what to do about those problems went through many stops and starts due to funding and concerns from some neighboring property owners. But after the most recent start in 2010, turnpike engineers and designers have been pushing to find a workable solution.
 
With the westbound tunnel dating to the turnpike’s original construction in 1939 and the eastbound portal added in 1965, the agency decided it would be too expensive and too disruptive to upgrade the existing facilities. Instead, it developed a series of options that were presented at a public meeting in Somerset last month as part of the environmental review process.

Officials presented three pairs of options, each with a new tunnel and new road: a part to the north with a projected cost of $761 million for a new tunnel and $384.9 million for a new road; a different northern route that would cost $702.1 million for a tunnel and $378 million for a road; and a southern option that would cost $627.9 million for a tunnel and $332.4 million for a new road.

Matthew Burd, special projects manager for the turnpike, said the agency prefers the option of building the southern road, which would be cut into the mountain about 1,000 feet south of the tunnel. Not only is it the least expensive option, it has the fewest environmental concerns from the Indiana bat habitat and wetlands and would involve taking the fewest amount of homes, several near the western end of the tunnel.

“None of these is a silver bullet that will fix all of the problems,”  Mr. Burd said. “It’s not a one-size-fits-all solution, but we feel it has the best options.”

Mr. Burd described the path shown during last month’s public meeting as “a pretty good snapshot”  of the proposed path but stressed that it is “very, very preliminary.”  The exact location could shift once designers and engineers do test borings and other preliminary work to determine the condition of the land that would be used for the new highway, he said.

Plans call for three eastbound lanes to allow a climbing lane due to the sharp incline in the that area and redesigning the sharp curves approaching the tunnel from the east to meet current standards. The existing curves have a 55 mph speed limit in an area where 70 mph is permitted.

Although the project is moving ahead, Mr. Burd said the turnpike will be trying to identify construction funding. It doesn’t know yet whether the agency will have the money when the design is finished or will have to wait several years for construction until the funding is identified.
 
While the agency proceeds with the lengthy process of pursuing the bypass, it also has to maintain the existing tunnel. The commission last week approved a $20.7 million contract with Mosites Construction Co. to replace the tunnel’s lighting and conduit, which spokesman Carl DeFebo said was a safety concern and needed to be done this year.

Mosites will work overnight on one tunnel at a time with traffic shifted to the other tunnel in both directions.

The decision to proceed with the Allegheny bypass follows a review last year of the possibility of grouping upgrades of all five turnpike tunnels under one contract as part of a public-private partnership, where the contractor would upgrade the facilities and be responsible for maintenance for 30 years. Although that approach could have upgraded all of the tunnels in five to six years, the agency decided the upfront cost of about $350 million was too expensive at a time when it is dealing with debts of more than $12 billion.

As a result, the turnpike began a four-year, $110 million rehabilitation of the Tuscarora Tunnel at the Huntingdon-Franklin County line in December. Beginning at 9 p.m. Sunday, the eastbound tube will close from Sunday evenings until noon on Fridays through June.


https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/02/23/Pa-Turnpike-Allegheny-Tunnel-Somerset-County-new-road-eliminate-tunnel-332-million-project/stories/202002210109?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Pittsburgh_Post-Gazette&fbclid=IwAR3xm0fAUPGDIKnLeKF15i5HriGRwMUIY1FW8jtGb13DMcnuzho3uubznI8
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: mgk920 on March 01, 2020, 10:36:20 AM
Some posters in another roads forum complained about this being pay-walled, so I am posting the entire article.

This is the Grey Cut alternative, and has 18.4 million cubic yards of excavation, 249 feet deep and costs $332 million.

Nothing in the article about the massive size of this cut.

The question is where does all that excavation go, can they somehow balance the cuts and fills on the project? 

Like to see renderings of what it would look like from various vantage points, it might look horrendous due to the massive size.

I can't imagine what a cut of 18 million cubic yards of excavation, 250 feet deep, over a mile of route, would look like.  That is 5 times the cubic yards of the Sideling Hill Cut on I-68.

This is truly the "tunnel territory" for such a transportation barrier.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[snippage]


How does this compare with the tunnel bypass cut on the West Virginia Turnpike (I-64/77)?

Mike
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 01, 2020, 11:03:14 AM
How does this compare with the tunnel bypass cut on the West Virginia Turnpike (I-64/77)?

Well according to a quick Google search leading to website of the Center for Land Use Interpretation (https://www.clui.org/ludb/site/center-national-responsememorial-tunnel):

Quote from: https://www.clui.org/ludb/site/center-national-responsememorial-tunnel
This cut moved 10 million cubic yards of earth, and yielded about 300,000 tons of coal from the mountain.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 16, 2020, 04:42:31 PM
The PA Turnpike will begin temporary AET operations tonight...

https://www.pennlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/pa-turnpike-will-temporarily-not-accept-cash-or-credit-cards-because-of-coronavirus.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 16, 2020, 04:54:58 PM
The PA Turnpike will begin temporary AET operations tonight...

https://www.pennlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/pa-turnpike-will-temporarily-not-accept-cash-or-credit-cards-because-of-coronavirus.html

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316132828.htm

Quote
News Release
        March 16, 2020

PA Turnpike Temporarily Will Not Accept Cash To Safeguard Employee and Traveler Health
Cash customers should NOT stop at tollbooths; they’ll be invoiced by mail starting at 8 p.m.

HARRISBURG, PA (MARCH 16, 2020) — The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) is alerting motorists that cash will not be accepted at any interchange statewide beginning tonight at 8 p.m. This is a temporary safety measure to keep travelers moving with no need to stop at tollbooths or interact with tolling personnel during the COVID-19 pandemic.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on March 16, 2020, 06:25:14 PM
The PA Turnpike will begin temporary AET operations tonight...

https://www.pennlive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/pa-turnpike-will-temporarily-not-accept-cash-or-credit-cards-because-of-coronavirus.html

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316132828.htm

Quote
News Release
  March 16, 2020

PA Turnpike Temporarily Will Not Accept Cash To Safeguard Employee and Traveler Health
Cash customers should NOT stop at tollbooths; they’ll be invoiced by mail starting at 8 p.m.

HARRISBURG, PA (MARCH 16, 2020) — The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) is alerting motorists that cash will not be accepted at any interchange statewide beginning tonight at 8 p.m. This is a temporary safety measure to keep travelers moving with no need to stop at tollbooths or interact with tolling personnel during the COVID-19 pandemic.

ixnay
Gonna ask a really dumb question
If they have to technology to do this temporarily, why delay the full scale implementation until late 2021?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 16, 2020, 07:12:35 PM
Gonna ask a really dumb question
If they have to technology to do this temporarily, why delay the full scale implementation until late 2021?

I could posit a few guesses.

- As of today, the motorists currently have the expectation that cash is accepted on the PA Turnpike–with the exception of the few “cash free”  zones that the PTC has publicized rather heavily. And the PTC has already announced a timetable for AET conversion that the Commission’s leaders assumably believe to be adequate advance notice of the change to AET. Generally, public agencies go to great lengths to make sure that all constituencies–even the laggards–are more than adequately warned and accommodated. The current situation is, of course, a state and federal emergency, so it’s an exception.

- PA Turnpike toll collectors are unionized, and it may not be possible to quickly transition to AET under existing employment contracts. I wouldn’t be surprised if the current 2021 transition date coincides with some kind of contract expiration or a previously agreed upon transition window.

- The PTC may be making significant changes to its billing processes and tech infrastructure in order to accommodate the official AET transition. In the current emergency, the agency is essentially using the current violations processing system to bill non-E-ZPass customers by mail...and simply waiving violations surcharges. But the existing violations infrastructure may be less efficient than the mechanism that’s in place by the official AET transition, and in this current “emergency AET”  situation, the PTC may be enduring higher processing costs and writing off a greater percentage of tolls as uncollectible. But from the Commission's perspective, bearing those higher costs and losses associated with uncollectible tolls is a better option than simply waiving all tolls (as happened during the last toll collectors’ strike).

- I imagine that the actual AET transition will coincide with some physical changes to toll plazas–reductions of lanes, removal of collectors’ booths etc.–which will take time to implement systemwide.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 16, 2020, 08:52:30 PM
I'm guessing they have installed the license plate cameras in all of the entry lanes now that allow them to know where a vehicle entered as well as when it exited.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on March 17, 2020, 08:12:10 AM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on March 17, 2020, 08:58:54 AM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?  Those things aren't exactly known for their hygienic properties.  And when you gotta, you gotta, so it's not going to increase "social distancing."

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on March 17, 2020, 09:40:38 AM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?  Those things aren't exactly known for their hygienic properties.  And when you gotta, you gotta, so it's not going to increase "social distancing."

Yeah, I'm kinda confused by that too.  I'm surprised they're even making the effort to provide porta-potties; I guess it still beats the cheap-out option to just shut the buildings entirely (while leaving the gas station open) and leave bathroom-goers SOL.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Brandon on March 17, 2020, 07:49:21 PM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

This is the most asinine, fucked up, ridiculous response to this crisis.  Are we not supposed to be washing our hands with soap and water!?!  Instead, the totally brain-dead PTC decides to replace clean washroom, with soap and water, with dirty, nasty, disgusting potable toilets that lack water and use that god-awful hand sanitizer shit instead.  That is, if they're even stocked with the had sanitizer in the first fucking place.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 17, 2020, 08:06:13 PM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm
This is the most asinine, fucked up, ridiculous response to this crisis.  Are we not supposed to be washing our hands with soap and water!?!  Instead, the totally brain-dead PTC decides to replace clean washroom, with soap and water, with dirty, nasty, disgusting potable toilets that lack water and use that god-awful hand sanitizer shit instead.  That is, if they're even stocked with the had sanitizer in the first fucking place.
"The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is implementing operational changes in response to Governor Wolf's mitigation guidance regarding COVID-19."

So I wonder who exactly made the decision to close the service plazas, what person or committee made the decision.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: odditude on March 17, 2020, 09:43:21 PM
it may have been cheaper/easier/risking less legal exposure to contract portapotties (with the included sanitization service) than to contract sanitization for the remainder of the rest areas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 17, 2020, 11:21:35 PM
Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?

More to the point, the service plazas are closed. All of the fast food counters, the Starbucks, the traveler information counter, the lavatories–everything located along the main atrium of the service plazas–has been shut down, and the plaza doors are locked. All of the HMSHost employees who staff those areas, including those who normally clean and stock the lavatories, have been sent home, consistent with Governor Wolf’s statewide directive that all nonessential businesses should be closed for at least the next two weeks.

For the sake of the reduced number motorists on the road who, assumably, are driving a long distance because they absolutely must, the fuel pumps remain on. A skeleton crew of a Sunoco employee or two remains on duty to accept cash payments for gasoline and can sell items from the convenience store, which is separated from the rest of the plaza, but everything else remains closed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 17, 2020, 11:30:45 PM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?  Those things aren't exactly known for their hygienic properties.  And when you gotta, you gotta, so it's not going to increase "social distancing."
I'll just go and take a shit behind the building, then.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 18, 2020, 12:31:52 AM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.
https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm
Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?  Those things aren't exactly known for their hygienic properties.  And when you gotta, you gotta, so it's not going to increase "social distancing."
I'll just go and take a shit behind the building, then.
Traveling?

Bring a bucket with you.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2020, 06:48:48 AM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?  Those things aren't exactly known for their hygienic properties.  And when you gotta, you gotta, so it's not going to increase "social distancing."
I'll just go and take a shit behind the building, then.

Is that what you do when you travel on roads without service plazas?

Considering they're telling you to cut out all non-essential travel anyway, why would you be crying over this in the first place?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Brandon on March 18, 2020, 07:11:05 AM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?  Those things aren't exactly known for their hygienic properties.  And when you gotta, you gotta, so it's not going to increase "social distancing."
I'll just go and take a shit behind the building, then.

Is that what you do when you travel on roads without service plazas?

Considering they're telling you to cut out all non-essential travel anyway, why would you be crying over this in the first place?

Obviously someone forgot that we have truckers out there who need these facilities.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on March 18, 2020, 08:28:12 AM
And a lot of motorists are still on the roads because life goes on and you can still do activities that you normally do - with just more distance. Even with the most restrictive shelter-in-place notices being put out there with COVID-19, you can still go out to parks and hike, camp, kayak, etc.; you can still go to the store; you can still go to work. We need essential services along the road to remain operational - including rest areas. No other agency is going as far as closing down restrooms that can be sanitized with ease (as they should be doing all along anyway) and replacing them with porta-potties that are even worse (although they can be sanitized with a spray).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 18, 2020, 08:53:20 AM
Is that what you do when you travel on roads without service plazas?
Considering they're telling you to cut out all non-essential travel anyway, why would you be crying over this in the first place?
Depends on what a person considers "non-essential travel," as while something may not be life-or-death, there are any number of things that would impose a major hardship on a person if they are not able to make the trip.

What does a trucker do who needs to use the restroom; many use rest areas as there aren't enough truck stops.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: VTGoose on March 18, 2020, 09:13:07 AM

Obviously someone forgot that we have truckers out there who need these facilities.

An EMT friend posted on Facebook a notice from from East Tennessee Incident Notifications  (https://www.facebook.com/easttnincidents/) about dining problems.

Quote
We have been made aware of an issue at a few restaurants open to drive thru traffic only.

Many Truck Drivers, EMT/Paramedics, Firefighters and Rescue Squad members have been turned away by some establishments. This is due to them walking up to the drive thru window to order food.

These folks need to eat and CANNOT pull their vehicles through. We hope that this post reaches Owners and Managers of these establishments.

Please allow our working folks to eat! Supplies need delivered and 911 calls need answered.

Apparently word spread and there are now restaurants (at least in Tennessee) that are posting on that Facebook page that they are available to serve hot meals to these people who have to be on the road.

There needs to be a lot of looks at rules that in normal times make sense, but may need to be relaxed or removed during this pandemic. Common sense should play a big part in what people do and don't do.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 18, 2020, 11:38:01 AM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

This is the most asinine, fucked up, ridiculous response to this crisis.  Are we not supposed to be washing our hands with soap and water!?!  Instead, the totally brain-dead PTC decides to replace clean washroom, with soap and water, with dirty, nasty, disgusting potable toilets that lack water and use that god-awful hand sanitizer shit instead.  That is, if they're even stocked with the had sanitizer in the first fucking place.

One article I read said each service plaza had two handwashing stations.  Assume those are like I have seen that have soap and water.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: hbelkins on March 18, 2020, 02:07:33 PM
From what I've read, the PTC has kept the service plaza parking areas open, while PennDOT has closed its rest areas to parking. What are truckers supposed to do when they reach their service hours limitations? Will Pennsylvania cops not write tickets when the truckers park on the shoulders or along entrance/exit ramps at interchanges? When they have to stop, they have to stop.

Kentucky is closing its KYTC offices to the public, but the rest areas are still open.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 18, 2020, 05:14:11 PM
From what I've read, the PTC has kept the service plaza parking areas open, while PennDOT has closed its rest areas to parking. What are truckers supposed to do when they reach their service hours limitations? Will Pennsylvania cops not write tickets when the truckers park on the shoulders or along entrance/exit ramps at interchanges? When they have to stop, they have to stop.

IMO, this is a dumb, dumb idea by PennDOT (I have not heard that MDOT or VDOT are closing their rest areas on the Interstate (and in some cases arterial) systems.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Revive 755 on March 18, 2020, 05:25:56 PM
^ I thought I heard something about the service hour restrictions for trucks being at least loosened, if not lifted for the time being?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on March 18, 2020, 05:52:27 PM
From what I've read, the PTC has kept the service plaza parking areas open, while PennDOT has closed its rest areas to parking. What are truckers supposed to do when they reach their service hours limitations? Will Pennsylvania cops not write tickets when the truckers park on the shoulders or along entrance/exit ramps at interchanges? When they have to stop, they have to stop.

IMO, this is a dumb, dumb idea by PennDOT (I have not heard that MDOT or VDOT are closing their rest areas on the Interstate (and in some cases arterial) systems.

Today, PennDOT modified its plan regarding the temporary rest area closures and will be keeping about half of them open. Reports are that the locations have been selected based on rates of truck usage and the greatest need for parking spaces.

I wonder, though, what the usage rates of truck parking capacity are currently. Obviously, shipments of immediate necessities like food and medication still need to get to their destinations, but my understanding is that a number of nonessential shipments have ceased. Truck parking capacity at state-operated rest areas is to some degree an overflow outlet for overcrowded truck stops, but if a sizable percentage of truckload volume has been sidelined, that excess capacity may not really be needed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2020, 06:23:40 PM
The PTC is also starting to limit services at the service plazas - for now only the 3 closest to Philadelphia, but I wouldn't be surprised if they expand it to all service plazas.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200316114826.htm

Okay, I'm stupid, but could someone please explain the point of closing the restrooms and instead making porta-potties available?  Those things aren't exactly known for their hygienic properties.  And when you gotta, you gotta, so it's not going to increase "social distancing."
I'll just go and take a shit behind the building, then.

Is that what you do when you travel on roads without service plazas?

Considering they're telling you to cut out all non-essential travel anyway, why would you be crying over this in the first place?

Obviously someone forgot that we have truckers out there who need these facilities.

I certainly didn't forget about then, or any motorist on our roadways.  But what do they do on any non-tolled interstate highway?  Do we know all 50 state are keeping their rest areas open too?  Yeah, sure, some have said they'll stay open.  But we've seen those permissions for many businesses quickly take a 180 turn the other way.

Also, it's been highly suggested to limit your travel, not use the time for impromptu road trips.  I know that's hard for some people, and even non-roadie people are going to go stir-crazy and want to get out of the house.

Realize that some cities and states are talking about total lock-down.  Finding a place to pee won't be a concern, because you'll be stuck in your house.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on March 19, 2020, 12:06:56 PM
Even in areas with "lockdowns," it is being encouraged to spend time outdoors - away from people, of course. National parks and many state parks (that have fees) are now free.

Related to the rest areas, I was traveling up I-81 through PA and NY and noted that the highways and rest areas were nearly empty. That was a complete contrast to the weekend prior to when they were next to overflowing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 19, 2020, 03:45:36 PM
Service plazas are re-opening on a limited basis

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200319140629.htm
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 19, 2020, 10:06:52 PM
Service plazas are re-opening on a limited basis

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200319140629.htm

Yeah, truckers must have started to run over the portajohns in protest.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on March 20, 2020, 08:25:26 AM
Do motorists have the ability to use these rest areas and plazas? I am driving down into the South this weekend.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 20, 2020, 11:22:09 AM
Do motorists have the ability to use these rest areas and plazas? I am driving down into the South this weekend.

Plazas on the Turnpike?  I'm sure.

Rest Areas on the other roads?  No, if I'm reading their post correctly (but who knows).  Only truckers can use them the way I'm reading it.

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/1240353050935648259
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 20, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
In better news, the PTC has posted some details about the upcoming reconstruction and widening of the NE Extension between the Quakertown and Lehigh Valley interchanges:

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpa44toa57/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 20, 2020, 08:01:35 PM
In better news, the PTC has posted some details about the upcoming reconstruction and widening of the NE Extension between the Quakertown and Lehigh Valley interchanges:
https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpa44toa57/
That would be great … the first time I have seen a plan to widen and rebuild that third segment up to US-22.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is planning to reconstruct and widen the Northeastern Extension from milepost (MP) A44 in Bucks County to MP A57 in Lehigh County.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 21, 2020, 12:12:34 PM
In better news, the PTC has posted some details about the upcoming reconstruction and widening of the NE Extension between the Quakertown and Lehigh Valley interchanges:
https://www.patpconstruction.com/mpa44toa57/
That would be great … the first time I have seen a plan to widen and rebuild that third segment up to US-22.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is planning to reconstruct and widen the Northeastern Extension from milepost (MP) A44 in Bucks County to MP A57 in Lehigh County.

Looks like about 8 years to do all the overhead bridges, followed by the reconstructions...my guess is it'll be the mid-2030s at the earliest before this stretch is fully complete.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 21, 2020, 06:48:41 PM
What about adding lanes from Lansdale to Quakertown?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 21, 2020, 07:00:08 PM
What about adding lanes from Lansdale to Quakertown?

ixnay
The one time I drove I-476 from Lansdale to Allentown it was bumper-to-bumper.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on March 21, 2020, 07:02:54 PM
What about adding lanes from Lansdale to Quakertown?

ixnay
The one time I drove I-476 from Lansdale to Allentown it was bumper-to-bumper.
Thanksgiving weekend when I went to visit my grandparents in NEPA, I didn't encounter much traffic at all.  But then again, I left Dover at 6am.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 21, 2020, 07:17:44 PM
What about adding lanes from Lansdale to Quakertown?
The one time I drove I-476 from Lansdale to Allentown it was bumper-to-bumper.
The southern NE Extension has surprisingly high volumes considering the very wide interchange spacing and the fact that it is not a major superhighway on the order of the east-west turnpike.

2017 data AADT --
67,000  between I-276 and Lansdale
51,000  between Lansdale and Quakertown
46,000  between Quakertown and US-22

All warrants the total rebuild to modern 6-lane cross-section, IMHO, even by today's volumes, let alone the needs on a 20-year design horizon, and it is an antiquated highway that was opened in 1957.

I drove it in 2019 and the newly widened section is super.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 21, 2020, 08:27:29 PM
2017 data AADT --
67,000  between I-276 and Lansdale
51,000  between Lansdale and Quakertown
46,000  between Quakertown and US-22

Let's hope it gets that amount of ridership with the opening of the Scranton Beltway. 81 is a bitch up there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 21, 2020, 08:50:55 PM
What about adding lanes from Lansdale to Quakertown?
The one time I drove I-476 from Lansdale to Allentown it was bumper-to-bumper.
The southern NE Extension has surprisingly high volumes considering the very wide interchange spacing and the fact that it is not a major superhighway on the order of the east-west turnpike.

2017 data AADT --
67,000  between I-276 and Lansdale
51,000  between Lansdale and Quakertown
46,000  between Quakertown and US-22

All warrants the total rebuild to modern 6-lane cross-section, IMHO, even by today's volumes, let alone the needs on a 20-year design horizon, and it is an antiquated highway that was opened in 1957.

I drove it in 2019 and the newly widened section is super.

The widening of the NE Extension between Lansdale and Quakertown is in progress.  The southern half of that section will hopefully be finished later this year, with the rest of the way to Quakertown starting not long after.

The widened sections of the Turnpike are indeed super!  Amazing what a difference 6 lanes and proper shoulder widths (inside and outside) makes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2020, 09:08:51 PM
I drove it in 2019 and the newly widened section is super.

I have driven nearly all of the PTC system (I am missing at least one section in Southwest Pennsylvania that goes to the airport), and the reconstructed part of I-476 north of I-276 is a gigantic improvement over most of the rest of the Turnpike's roads - even some sections that have already been through total reconstruction are not as good as the reconstructed part of the Northeast Extension.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Beltway on March 22, 2020, 10:27:06 PM
I have driven nearly all of the PTC system (I am missing at least one section in Southwest Pennsylvania that goes to the airport), and the reconstructed part of I-476 north of I-276 is a gigantic improvement over most of the rest of the Turnpike's roads - even some sections that have already been through total reconstruction are not as good as the reconstructed part of the Northeast Extension.
The standard is three 12-foot lanes each way and 12-foot right and left shoulders, and a tall concrete median barrier.

The 4 mile section just west of the Susquehanna River was completed about a year ago, same standard.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on April 17, 2020, 08:07:27 PM
The PTC is reviewing its spending in light of current events:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/04/16/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-COVID-19-low-traffic-revenue-capital-transit-payments/stories/202004160144


PTC toll revenue for March 2020:

https://www.paturnpike.com/business/investors_fcr.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2020, 09:30:21 AM
The PTC is reviewing its spending in light of current events:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/04/16/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-COVID-19-low-traffic-revenue-capital-transit-payments/stories/202004160144


PTC toll revenue for March 2020:

https://www.paturnpike.com/business/investors_fcr.aspx

Wonder if anyone in power in Pennsylvania will consider the suspension of transit subsidy payments from PTC to PennDOT for the duration of the current public health and economic crisis?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 18, 2020, 09:53:35 AM
The PTC is reviewing its spending in light of current events:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/04/16/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-COVID-19-low-traffic-revenue-capital-transit-payments/stories/202004160144


PTC toll revenue for March 2020:

https://www.paturnpike.com/business/investors_fcr.aspx

Wonder if anyone in power in Pennsylvania will consider the suspension of transit subsidy payments from PTC to PennDOT for the duration of the current public health and economic crisis?

That's a tough call...less money for PennDOT and the transit agencies...or less money for the PTC. I'm betting most local politicians want to keep that money flowing into the local roadways and local mass transit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on April 18, 2020, 10:20:40 AM
The PTC is reviewing its spending in light of current events:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/04/16/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-COVID-19-low-traffic-revenue-capital-transit-payments/stories/202004160144


PTC toll revenue for March 2020:

https://www.paturnpike.com/business/investors_fcr.aspx

Wonder if anyone in power in Pennsylvania will consider the suspension of transit subsidy payments from PTC to PennDOT for the duration of the current public health and economic crisis?

That's a tough call...less money for PennDOT and the transit agencies...or less money for the PTC. I'm betting most local politicians want to keep that money flowing into the local roadways and local mass transit.

The PTC secures all but $50 million of its $450 million Act 44 obligation through the bond markets, so as long as they can still borrow money at reasonable interest rates, that really shouldn't be an issue.  What would most likely happen, if they do need to delay the payments, would be an amendment to the agreement between the PTC and PennDOT similar to what happened with the truckers' lawsuit a couple years ago.

That being said, I would definitely expect any upcoming reconstruction projects to be delayed. Same goes with the start of Mon-Fayette Expressway work and upcoming interchange projects not related to cashless tolling.  Also, I would speculate that next year's toll increase may come earlier or be larger than expected...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2020, 12:52:04 AM
That's a tough call...less money for PennDOT and the transit agencies...or less money for the PTC. I'm betting most local politicians want to keep that money flowing into the local roadways and local mass transit.

I do not thing that any of the Act 44/Act 89 money that PTC gives to PennDOT can be spent on local roads.  All of it is for transit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: noelbotevera on April 19, 2020, 03:15:08 AM
Not sure if this is the correct thread but it falls under the Turnpike system, though it could apply to the general PA thread.

I've always wondered why the PTC built the Greensburg Bypass (PA 66 between I-70/Turnpike and US 22). A brief history on the road doesn't say much, other than it being constructed from 1990-1993. I'm assuming prior to 1993 I-70 traffic wishing to travel to US 22 would use US 119.

Now here's the thing: there's not many people shunpiking via US 22. Long distance traffic is either on I-68 or I-80. US 22 shunpikers are likely regional, and I can't see many reasons why one would need to use this corridor. I could see why it might be expanded based on traffic; US 119 between US 30 and US 22 is a humble 2 lane road, currently carrying 4300 AADT. PA 66 between those two points carries 17-18K AADT, reaching as high as 37K shy of US 22 (source (https://gis.penndot.gov/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Traffic/Traffic_Volume/County_Maps/Westmoreland_tv.pdf)).

Furthering confounding me is that PennDOT did upgrade US 119 to 4 lanes between I-70 and US 30 meaning they anticipated decent amounts of traffic to Greensburg, but not north of Greensburg. Based on Google's aerial imagery, it wouldn't even be terribly difficult to extend US 30's bypass to also act as a bypass of US 119 (see here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3060622,-79.5183793,2501m/data=!3m1!1e3)) though upgrading US 119 north of town would be harder.

Which raises the question: why couldn't PennDOT upgrade US 119 to freeway status and bypass Greensburg? Why did the PTC have to build PA 66 to act as the bypass?

Overall PA 66 seems like a waste of money ($282 million in 1993, according to PAHighways (http://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike66.html)) and IMO could've been pocketed or used elsewhere (say the NE Extension, Turnpike upgrades, maybe even start the Mon-Fay).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on April 19, 2020, 12:21:30 PM
Anyone can chime in to correct the following (since I don’t want to take the time right now to source everything), but I believe all of the following is more or less correct.

First, the reason the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is involved in any of these projects is largely political. From its inception up to the 1980s, the PTC was operated much like a utility–independently and without its funds being tampered with. Tolls remained relatively low–some of the lowest in the country, I believe, and improvements and expansions were correspondingly minimal, so the PTC remained solidly in the black.

In contrast, PennDOT was saddled with crippling debts and a deteriorating state highway system from decades of low gas taxes. So state legislators, not wanting to increase gas taxes as much as would be needed to adequately fund the Commonwealth’s transportation needs, decided they could alleviate some of the burden by transferring certain freeway projects over to the PTC, which would construct them as toll roads. This was codified in Act 61 of 1985 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjB7_rK8PToAhUzYjUKHdxZCXkQFjAAegQIARAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.palrb.us%2Fpamphletlaws%2F19001999%2F1985%2F0%2Fact%2F0061.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3f0NFM4BCEZkKuuVrmlWOg): The Turnpike Organization, Extension and Toll Road Conversion Act.

The projects chosen (Beaver Valley, Mon-Fayette, Greensburg Bypass) weren’t alleviating traffic bottlenecks, per se; they were intended to improve mobility and thereby bolster the economies of of some of the counties ringing Pittsburgh. You have to have to bear in mind that, in the early to mid ’80s, many counties surrounding Allegheny had unemployment rates near or above 20%. Deindustrialization hit western PA incredibly hard, and much more so in the surrounding counties than in Pittsburgh itself where the economy was already more diversified.

So throughout for about 20 years from the ’70s through the ’90s, political leaders were scrambling to do anything they could to attract new industry and stop the hemorrhaging of jobs. Building new freeways was part of that effort.

(https://old.post-gazette.com/pg/images/201212/20121223unemployment_80s_543.png)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 19, 2020, 02:57:28 PM
Not sure if this is the correct thread but it falls under the Turnpike system, though it could apply to the general PA thread.

I've always wondered why the PTC built the Greensburg Bypass (PA 66 between I-70/Turnpike and US 22). A brief history on the road doesn't say much, other than it being constructed from 1990-1993. I'm assuming prior to 1993 I-70 traffic wishing to travel to US 22 would use US 119.

Now here's the thing: there's not many people shunpiking via US 22. Long distance traffic is either on I-68 or I-80. US 22 shunpikers are likely regional, and I can't see many reasons why one would need to use this corridor. I could see why it might be expanded based on traffic; US 119 between US 30 and US 22 is a humble 2 lane road, currently carrying 4300 AADT. PA 66 between those two points carries 17-18K AADT, reaching as high as 37K shy of US 22 (source (https://gis.penndot.gov/BPR_PDF_FILES/MAPS/Traffic/Traffic_Volume/County_Maps/Westmoreland_tv.pdf)).

Furthering confounding me is that PennDOT did upgrade US 119 to 4 lanes between I-70 and US 30 meaning they anticipated decent amounts of traffic to Greensburg, but not north of Greensburg. Based on Google's aerial imagery, it wouldn't even be terribly difficult to extend US 30's bypass to also act as a bypass of US 119 (see here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3060622,-79.5183793,2501m/data=!3m1!1e3)) though upgrading US 119 north of town would be harder.

Which raises the question: why couldn't PennDOT upgrade US 119 to freeway status and bypass Greensburg? Why did the PTC have to build PA 66 to act as the bypass?

Overall PA 66 seems like a waste of money ($282 million in 1993, according to PAHighways (http://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike66.html)) and IMO could've been pocketed or used elsewhere (say the NE Extension, Turnpike upgrades, maybe even start the Mon-Fay).

If you think Turnpike 66 was a waste, let me introduce you to the Mon-Fayette Expressway which gets half the traffic.

Greensburg needed a bypass. The downtown is congested and following US 119 required turns that were difficult for trucks to navigate. While US 119 between New Stanton and Greensburg is 4 lanes, it runs through Youngwood with an extended 25mph stretch. North of Greensburg, US 119 is an un-upgraded 2-lane road. Even with the added distance, Turnpike 66 to US 22 is still several minutes faster than staying on US 119.

Turnpike 66 is a logical extension of the existing US 119 freeway corridor from south of New Stanton. It provides a connection to the Kiski Valley via PA 66 north of US 22 and does a reasonable job of diverting US 119 traffic from going through town. The existing US 30 Greensburg bypass is outdated and busy already, so dumping another 17,000 cars a day on it wouldn't have been a great strategy.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on April 19, 2020, 05:21:12 PM
It looks like a current style NJTP VMS is going up near the former toll plaza at the Delaware River Bridge going East. Saw the footings already in place, and the VMS laying in the former toll plaza convergance point.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on April 19, 2020, 06:59:01 PM
It looks like a current style NJTP VMS is going up near the former toll plaza at the Delaware River Bridge going East. Saw the footings already in place, and the VMS laying in the former toll plaza convergance point.

There was a classic-style neon NJTP VMS (https://goo.gl/maps/J5oVHPzui4EsxJjE6) still standing just after the toll plaza, at least when I was last there to check out the I-95 connection. I think it was the last neon NJTP VMS still standing, but it clearly hadn't been maintained in years, so I don't know when it was last used. It was removed sometime between October 2018 and September 2019. Apparently the NJTA still wants a VMS there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2020, 11:38:37 PM
If you think Turnpike 66 was a waste, let me introduce you to the Mon-Fayette Expressway which gets half the traffic.

Turnpike 43 had very low traffic volumes before the section to I-68 south of the Pennsylvania/West Virginia border was completed.  Have they gone up since that section opened?

Along the same theme, I think there were always plans for 43 to have a tie-in with I-376 at some point (there were plans at one time for it to have a wye with interchanges on both sides of the Squirrel Hill Tunnel, but now I think the only connection now will be east of the tunnel).

Do the projected traffic volumes on 43 south of PA-51 increase with a connection to I-376?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on April 20, 2020, 09:13:59 AM
It looks like a current style NJTP VMS is going up near the former toll plaza at the Delaware River Bridge going East. Saw the footings already in place, and the VMS laying in the former toll plaza convergance point.

It will match nicely with the PTC VMS (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.110444,-74.8072864,3a,50.2y,319.62h,93.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZDwyZGdlfjJImx_99tQRpA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) on the PHMTE westbound that's well over a mile before the bridge. Plus, there are various PTC signs for Exit 42 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1076416,-74.8013045,3a,42.4y,319.72h,93.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stEcF6D4BoPmR7utdgwNGUw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) complete with incorrect clearview exit number and PennDOT standard Old Exit square, and PTC signs for the cashless bridge toll (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1115552,-74.8106107,3a,27.2y,316.88h,96.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spqNQ3K_5wE2seD5P5OdVsQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). The interesting thing about those two is that they're clearly PTC signage that it looks like the NJTA mounted on NJTA spec signposts.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 20, 2020, 11:10:24 AM
If you think Turnpike 66 was a waste, let me introduce you to the Mon-Fayette Expressway which gets half the traffic.

Turnpike 43 had very low traffic volumes before the section to I-68 south of the Pennsylvania/West Virginia border was completed.  Have they gone up since that section opened?

Somewhat, but it's still lowly traveled on the toll section (about 7500 ADT). You can see on the traffic counts there are several thousand cars a day bypassing the toll part and then getting back on.

Do the projected traffic volumes on 43 south of PA-51 increase with a connection to I-376?

Probably not much until you get a tie-in with the Southern Beltway. For traffic coming from Morgantown/Uniontown, it's still better to take US 119 to the Turnpike to I-376 if you're going to Monroeville. If you're heading towards downtown, I think PA 51 would still be better since you'd avoid Squirrel Hill Tunnel and going out of the way. Once the Southern Beltway is built, this would be useful as a bypass of downtown for people coming from the Washington County area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 20, 2020, 10:02:40 PM
If you think Turnpike 66 was a waste, let me introduce you to the Mon-Fayette Expressway which gets half the traffic.

Turnpike 43 had very low traffic volumes before the section to I-68 south of the Pennsylvania/West Virginia border was completed.  Have they gone up since that section opened?

Somewhat, but it's still lowly traveled on the toll section (about 7500 ADT). You can see on the traffic counts there are several thousand cars a day bypassing the toll part and then getting back on.

Do the projected traffic volumes on 43 south of PA-51 increase with a connection to I-376?

Probably not much until you get a tie-in with the Southern Beltway. For traffic coming from Morgantown/Uniontown, it's still better to take US 119 to the Turnpike to I-376 if you're going to Monroeville. If you're heading towards downtown, I think PA 51 would still be better since you'd avoid Squirrel Hill Tunnel and going out of the way. Once the Southern Beltway is built, this would be useful as a bypass of downtown for people coming from the Washington County area.

If Turnpike 43 gets an Interstate designation (which it very well may), what would it be? X68? X70? X76? X79?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 20, 2020, 10:28:51 PM
I thought the game plan was that when the Southern Beltway was fully complete that the PTC was running 576 all the way to monroeville.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on April 20, 2020, 11:00:43 PM
If you think Turnpike 66 was a waste, let me introduce you to the Mon-Fayette Expressway which gets half the traffic.

Turnpike 43 had very low traffic volumes before the section to I-68 south of the Pennsylvania/West Virginia border was completed.  Have they gone up since that section opened?

Somewhat, but it's still lowly traveled on the toll section (about 7500 ADT). You can see on the traffic counts there are several thousand cars a day bypassing the toll part and then getting back on.

Do the projected traffic volumes on 43 south of PA-51 increase with a connection to I-376?

Probably not much until you get a tie-in with the Southern Beltway. For traffic coming from Morgantown/Uniontown, it's still better to take US 119 to the Turnpike to I-376 if you're going to Monroeville. If you're heading towards downtown, I think PA 51 would still be better since you'd avoid Squirrel Hill Tunnel and going out of the way. Once the Southern Beltway is built, this would be useful as a bypass of downtown for people coming from the Washington County area.

If Turnpike 43 gets an Interstate designation (which it very well may), what would it be? X68? X70? X76? X79?
I don't think anything without a 76 is going to be upgraded.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 20, 2020, 11:46:09 PM
If Turnpike 43 gets an Interstate designation (which it very well may), what would it be? X68? X70? X76? X79?

There are some issues where design variances or upgrades would be needed to meet Interstate status. The Uniontown bypass would likely need interchange upgrades, a high-speed interchange would need to be built at I-68, and some of the bridges in WV might need full-width shoulders added. If the road gets an Interstate designation, I would image it would be x76 but I don't know that's really high on anyone's priority list.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on April 21, 2020, 01:07:46 AM
I thought the game plan was that when the Southern Beltway was fully complete that the PTC was running 576 all the way to monroeville.

IIRC, that was the plan originally, with 43 following the western leg toward downtown and 576 following the eastern leg to Monroeville. With the cancellation of the western leg, though, they may end 576 at 43.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 21, 2020, 11:42:18 PM
I thought the game plan was that when the Southern Beltway was fully complete that the PTC was running 576 all the way to monroeville.

IIRC, that was the plan originally, with 43 following the western leg toward downtown and 576 following the eastern leg to Monroeville. With the cancellation of the western leg, though, they may end 576 at 43.

There will be no more of the Southern Beltway. AFAIK, the Beltway will be ending at 43. Not every Interstate spur needs to connect with its parent; 576 already connects to 376.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 09, 2020, 09:55:26 PM
While looking over the PTC Design and Construction site this evening, I note that the mainline MP 28 to MP 31 project indicates that it went out to bid in December, contract has been awarded and NTP given in March, this a total mainline reconstruction to 6 lanes from the Cranberry Interchange to the Warrendale  mainline booths.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on May 09, 2020, 11:41:04 PM
While looking over the PTC Design and Construction site this evening, I note that the mainline MP 28 to MP 31 project indicates that it went out to bid in December, contract has been awarded and NTP given in March, this a total mainline reconstruction to 6 lanes from the Cranberry Interchange to the Warrendale  mainline booths.

Hopefully they'll somehow increase the clearance some for US-19 under the turnpike then.
https://goo.gl/maps/woz3oxfuZH9w8RGx9
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 12, 2020, 08:08:43 PM
Update regarding the PTC's (and PennDOT's) current financial difficulties due to the pandemic:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/05/12/PennDOT-Pennsylvania-Turnpike-COVID-19-push-bacck-projects-roads-bridges/stories/202005120111

(Also posted on the Pennsylvania thread)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 23, 2020, 01:44:54 PM
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2020, 02:56:07 PM
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.

It should be EZ Pass only or mixed mode. Purpose of EZ Pass is to keep moving. If you have all the lanes set to mixed mode you won't know if the person in front will stop or not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on May 23, 2020, 03:05:20 PM
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.

It should be EZ Pass only or mixed mode. Purpose of EZ Pass is to keep moving. If you have all the lanes set to mixed mode you won't know if the person in front will stop or not.


The Mass Pike has already done this. Why not Pennsylvania?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 23, 2020, 06:01:08 PM
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.

It should be EZ Pass only or mixed mode. Purpose of EZ Pass is to keep moving. If you have all the lanes set to mixed mode you won't know if the person in front will stop or not.
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.

It should be EZ Pass only or mixed mode. Purpose of EZ Pass is to keep moving. If you have all the lanes set to mixed mode you won't know if the person in front will stop or not.

There are still E-ZPass Only lanes. The mixed mode lanes are new since cashless tolling was temporarily enabled. While you do have to be prepared to stop for a cash customer (even though each plaza has digital signs to keep moving), it does save you from having to cut across lanes if you aren’t near an E-ZPass Only lane and you can’t go through a cash lane. NY had all its cash lanes mixed mode from Day 1 and even NJ changed to mixed mode a few years back. Can’t think of another E-ZPass agency that doesn’t have all its cash lanes mixed mode.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2020, 12:43:29 AM
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.

It should be EZ Pass only or mixed mode. Purpose of EZ Pass is to keep moving. If you have all the lanes set to mixed mode you won't know if the person in front will stop or not.
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.

It should be EZ Pass only or mixed mode. Purpose of EZ Pass is to keep moving. If you have all the lanes set to mixed mode you won't know if the person in front will stop or not.

There are still E-ZPass Only lanes. The mixed mode lanes are new since cashless tolling was temporarily enabled. While you do have to be prepared to stop for a cash customer (even though each plaza has digital signs to keep moving), it does save you from having to cut across lanes if you aren’t near an E-ZPass Only lane and you can’t go through a cash lane. NY had all its cash lanes mixed mode from Day 1 and even NJ changed to mixed mode a few years back. Can’t think of another E-ZPass agency that doesn’t have all its cash lanes mixed mode.

All of the DRPA bridges don't use mixed-mode.

The mixed-used lanes on the NJ Turnpike have certainly helped, as the usage rate is so high, especially at rush hour.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: RobbieL2415 on May 26, 2020, 12:17:43 AM
It looks like a current style NJTP VMS is going up near the former toll plaza at the Delaware River Bridge going East. Saw the footings already in place, and the VMS laying in the former toll plaza convergance point.

There was a classic-style neon NJTP VMS (https://goo.gl/maps/J5oVHPzui4EsxJjE6) still standing just after the toll plaza, at least when I was last there to check out the I-95 connection. I think it was the last neon NJTP VMS still standing, but it clearly hadn't been maintained in years, so I don't know when it was last used. It was removed sometime between October 2018 and September 2019. Apparently the NJTA still wants a VMS there.
Can confirm this was removed.  Drove that segment of I-95 last July.  Before that I drove it in January (same year) and it was still up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on May 27, 2020, 11:07:08 AM
The last time I drove the NE Extension, I noticed that the exit numbers seem to have been fudged downward by a mile at both Lehigh Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5919674,-75.5661847,3a,45.1y,351.88h,89.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scBF2iGoh4ZFKtBLGGlcsHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) and Mahoning Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8351004,-75.6730176,3a,41.2y,61.77h,87.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGLb_G_q_SirsXePPDIotFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en). I was curious if the PTC did this, when renumbering exits to mileage-based, in order to avoid matching the exit numbers at Pittsburgh & New Stanton on the mainline?  Which are far away and (most likely) never going to be passed in the same turnpike trip, but maybe the PTC didn't want to have 2 57's and 2 75's on the toll ticket?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 27, 2020, 11:28:08 AM
Drove on the Turnpike for the first time since they went cashless temporarily.  For the first time, all of the cash/ticket lanes on the mainline Turnpike are mixed mode (tickets or E-ZPass), whereas the exit lanes were previously Cash Only or E-ZPass Only.  IMO they should always have been mixed mode lanes to avoid all the jockeying at the toll plazas (like NJ and NY have done).  Hopefully they stay that way in preparation for the cashless tolling conversion.

It should be EZ Pass only or mixed mode. Purpose of EZ Pass is to keep moving. If you have all the lanes set to mixed mode you won't know if the person in front will stop or not.


The Mass Pike has already done this. Why not Pennsylvania?
The Mass Pike went full AET several years ago.  All the toll plazas were taken down & replaced with mainline AET gantries.  Cash toll collections ended when all the AET gantries were erected & went live. 

The PA Turnpike still has conventional toll plazas.  Their move to go cashless prior to replacing the toll plazas was only intended to be a temporary measure until this pandemic subsides.  The PTC does plan to ultimately go full AET down the road but not just yet.

Case & point, the DPRA has since resumed cash toll collections for their 4 bridges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: amroad17 on June 01, 2020, 11:58:30 PM
The last time I drove the NE Extension, I noticed that the exit numbers seem to have been fudged downward by a mile at both Lehigh Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5919674,-75.5661847,3a,45.1y,351.88h,89.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scBF2iGoh4ZFKtBLGGlcsHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) and Mahoning Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8351004,-75.6730176,3a,41.2y,61.77h,87.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGLb_G_q_SirsXePPDIotFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en). I was curious if the PTC did this, when renumbering exits to mileage-based, in order to avoid matching the exit numbers at Pittsburgh & New Stanton on the mainline?  Which are far away and (most likely) never going to be passed in the same turnpike trip, but maybe the PTC didn't want to have 2 57's and 2 75's on the toll ticket?
I believe that you are correct in your assessment of why Lehigh Valley is Exit 56 and Mahoning Valley is Exit 74--no duplication of Interchanges 57 and 75 on the toll ticket.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on June 02, 2020, 11:57:02 AM
The last time I drove the NE Extension, I noticed that the exit numbers seem to have been fudged downward by a mile at both Lehigh Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5919674,-75.5661847,3a,45.1y,351.88h,89.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scBF2iGoh4ZFKtBLGGlcsHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) and Mahoning Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8351004,-75.6730176,3a,41.2y,61.77h,87.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGLb_G_q_SirsXePPDIotFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en). I was curious if the PTC did this, when renumbering exits to mileage-based, in order to avoid matching the exit numbers at Pittsburgh & New Stanton on the mainline?  Which are far away and (most likely) never going to be passed in the same turnpike trip, but maybe the PTC didn't want to have 2 57's and 2 75's on the toll ticket?
I believe that you are correct in your assessment of why Lehigh Valley is Exit 56 and Mahoning Valley is Exit 74--no duplication of Interchanges 57 and 75 on the toll ticket.


Then why not just mark them as A57 and A75?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2020, 01:52:59 PM
The last time I drove the NE Extension, I noticed that the exit numbers seem to have been fudged downward by a mile at both Lehigh Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5919674,-75.5661847,3a,45.1y,351.88h,89.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scBF2iGoh4ZFKtBLGGlcsHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) and Mahoning Valley (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8351004,-75.6730176,3a,41.2y,61.77h,87.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGLb_G_q_SirsXePPDIotFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en). I was curious if the PTC did this, when renumbering exits to mileage-based, in order to avoid matching the exit numbers at Pittsburgh & New Stanton on the mainline?  Which are far away and (most likely) never going to be passed in the same turnpike trip, but maybe the PTC didn't want to have 2 57's and 2 75's on the toll ticket?
I believe that you are correct in your assessment of why Lehigh Valley is Exit 56 and Mahoning Valley is Exit 74--no duplication of Interchanges 57 and 75 on the toll ticket.


Then why not just mark them as A57 and A75?

Most motorists will ignore the A.  A slight variation to the exit number won't be noticed by travelers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on June 02, 2020, 03:36:58 PM
The PTC will lay off its toll collectors and make cashless tolling permanent, effective immediately:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-to-lay-off-500-employees-make-cashless-tolling-permanent/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 02, 2020, 04:21:41 PM
The PTC will lay off its toll collectors and make cashless tolling permanent, effective immediately:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-to-lay-off-500-employees-make-cashless-tolling-permanent/

Definitely a shock but the reasons make sense.

What is strange is the Mon-Fayette appears to still accept cash, even though I think all of the lanes have the equipment. That was the only road still accepting cash during COVID and the only road other than the mainline Turnpike accepting cash until the pandemic.

Quote
Cash will not be accepted anywhere on the PA Turnpike’s ticket system
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on June 02, 2020, 05:18:18 PM
How were the EZ-Pass only exits affected by this so far?  Did they still remain EZ-Pass only when the rest of the system went to temporary (now permanent) cashless, or are they allowing toll by plate at these exits too? 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 02, 2020, 05:38:32 PM
How were the EZ-Pass only exits affected by this so far?  Did they still remain EZ-Pass only when the rest of the system went to temporary (now permanent) cashless, or are they allowing toll by plate at these exits too? 

That is unknown.  The way they had the temporary setup was that cash customers were supposed to still use “cash”  lanes (which were effectively mixed mode lanes) rather than E-ZPass ONLY lanes (which would include express lanes or the slip ramps).  It might not be immediate but my guess is the slip ramps will eventually permit Toll by Plate (they all have the cameras set up overhead).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on June 02, 2020, 08:22:31 PM
This whole decision by the PTC stinks. They're going to throw 500 employees out in the street at a time like this when unemployment is already breaking records because of the Coronavirus. Where are these people supposed to find work?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ipeters61 on June 02, 2020, 09:45:17 PM
This whole decision by the PTC stinks. They're going to throw 500 employees out in the street at a time like this when unemployment is already breaking records because of the Coronavirus. Where are these people supposed to find work?
Do keep in mind that this is the same agency that thinks the inflation rate is 6% (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2019/12/29/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-increase-6-transit-funding-lower-increase-2023/stories/201912190185).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on June 03, 2020, 05:33:51 AM
Statement from the PTC regarding the immediate change to permanent AET:

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200602154151.htm

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on June 03, 2020, 11:27:58 AM
Statement from the PTC regarding the immediate change to permanent AET:

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200602154151.htm

I think this comes as a surprise to no one.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 03, 2020, 11:52:21 AM
Statement from the PTC regarding the immediate change to permanent AET:

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200602154151.htm

I think this comes as a surprise to no one.

I wonder if any other toll agencies will end up taking this route.  DelDOT, NJTA, & the various Delaware River agencies have all resumed cash collection, but I know MDTA has not (and has already removed 3 of its 7 toll plazas within the past year and replaced with AET gantries).  Maybe PANYNJ too?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on June 03, 2020, 02:01:21 PM
The Thruway is resuming regular toll collection tonight at midnight, so they will not be on the list of toll agencies permanently retaining their emergency procedure.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on June 03, 2020, 08:47:08 PM
Nice to hear that unlike the Penn. Turnpike Commission, the NYSTA will not be throwing hundreds of employees out the door onto the unemployment line during a period of record high unemployment.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on June 03, 2020, 09:16:12 PM
Nice to hear that unlike the Penn. Turnpike Commission, the NYSTA will not be throwing hundreds of employees out the door onto the unemployment line during a period of record high unemployment.
NYSTA didn't go full all-electronic anyways.  They still had people in the exit booths to collect a person's licence plate and entry location so they can be billed during the emergency toll procedures.  I think the career toll takers are already gone, anyways - what's left is part-time temps who can keep the booths staffed before they go all-electronic later this year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 04, 2020, 09:20:54 AM
According to the No Cash Zone site, the Mon-Fayette has also gone cashless, effective immediately.

https://www.nocashzone.com/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on June 04, 2020, 01:17:15 PM
Nice to hear that unlike the Penn. Turnpike Commission, the NYSTA will not be throwing hundreds of employees out the door onto the unemployment line during a period of record high unemployment.
NYSTA didn't go full all-electronic anyways.  They still had people in the exit booths to collect a person's licence plate and entry location so they can be billed during the emergency toll procedures.  I think the career toll takers are already gone, anyways - what's left is part-time temps who can keep the booths staffed before they go all-electronic later this year.
I would suggest that they adopt mainline tolling sometime though.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on June 04, 2020, 01:31:29 PM
Nice to hear that unlike the Penn. Turnpike Commission, the NYSTA will not be throwing hundreds of employees out the door onto the unemployment line during a period of record high unemployment.
NYSTA didn't go full all-electronic anyways.  They still had people in the exit booths to collect a person's licence plate and entry location so they can be billed during the emergency toll procedures.  I think the career toll takers are already gone, anyways - what's left is part-time temps who can keep the booths staffed before they go all-electronic later this year.
I would suggest that they adopt mainline tolling sometime though.
That's what I said.  The conversion project is ongoing.  Many of the gantries are already up.  NYSTA is not the PTC or MTA.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 04, 2020, 01:58:36 PM
Nice to hear that unlike the Penn. Turnpike Commission, the NYSTA will not be throwing hundreds of employees out the door onto the unemployment line during a period of record high unemployment.
NYSTA didn't go full all-electronic anyways.  They still had people in the exit booths to collect a person's licence plate and entry location so they can be billed during the emergency toll procedures.  I think the career toll takers are already gone, anyways - what's left is part-time temps who can keep the booths staffed before they go all-electronic later this year.
I would suggest that they adopt mainline tolling sometime though.
That's what I said.  The conversion project is ongoing.  Many of the gantries are already up.  NYSTA is not the PTC or MTA.

The big question right now is when the PTC will have enough money to even consider putting up gantries across the rest of the system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on June 04, 2020, 02:53:21 PM
According to the No Cash Zone site, the Mon-Fayette has also gone cashless, effective immediately.

https://www.nocashzone.com/

Earlier, the Mon-Fayette was still taking cash since it has automated payment machines so there was no interaction with attendants.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on June 04, 2020, 09:05:59 PM
The big question right now is when the PTC will have enough money to even consider putting up gantries across the rest of the system.

If I remember correctly the original goal was to have gantries up east of Harrisburg and along the Northeast Extension by 2022, and the rest of the mainline by 2024. The PTC did announce a while ago a delay with that timeline, but I wonder if they'll try to speed things up again since the Turnpike is permanently cashless over a year earlier than anticipated.  It's entirely possible that we could be talking about still-existent (but useless) tollbooths on the PA Turnpike in 2030!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 04, 2020, 10:48:42 PM
Nice to hear that unlike the Penn. Turnpike Commission, the NYSTA will not be throwing hundreds of employees out the door onto the unemployment line during a period of record high unemployment.
NYSTA didn't go full all-electronic anyways.  They still had people in the exit booths to collect a person's licence plate and entry location so they can be billed during the emergency toll procedures.  I think the career toll takers are already gone, anyways - what's left is part-time temps who can keep the booths staffed before they go all-electronic later this year.
I would suggest that they adopt mainline tolling sometime though.
That's what I said.  The conversion project is ongoing.  Many of the gantries are already up.  NYSTA is not the PTC or MTA.

The big question right now is when the PTC will have enough money to even consider putting up gantries across the rest of the system.

They have money for projects. They just have to decide which projects they keep and which ones they delay.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 11, 2020, 03:57:58 PM
The PTC comfirmed today that the Mon-Fayette Expressway is going cashless as they are removing the automated payment machines starting Tuesday. (https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2020/20200611154355.htm)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 12, 2020, 09:41:46 PM
Also buried in a release about the rating of the Turnpike's debt is bad news about a likely double whammy of toll increases this year.  Because of COVID, the next 6% increase may be effective in October instead of January 2021.  This is on top of the 6% increase in January. 

Also, toll-by-plate rates would jump (another?) 45% to account for cashless tolling (effectively creating a 2x spread between E-ZPass and toll-by-plate rates).  Effectively, a cross state toll (Pittsburgh to Valley Forge) without E-ZPass could cost $64 one-way.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/infrastructure-project-finance/fitch-rates-penn-turnpike-sen-rev-bonds-2nd-ser-of-2020-a-affirms-outstanding-bonds-12-06-2020

Quote
PTC is considering enacting several measures to mitigate the revenue loss due to self-quarantine orders during the coronavirus pandemic. The Commission plans to bring forward the planned January 2021 toll increase to October 2020, increase the magnitude from 5% to 6%, and include a 45% surcharge for toll by plate customers, making toll by plate rates approximately double E-ZPass rates. The proposed additional surcharge for toll by plate customers accounts for the increased processing costs associated with this collection method and the increase of toll by plate transactions due to the switch to AET

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 14, 2020, 11:04:47 AM
Also buried in a release about the rating of the Turnpike's debt is bad news about a likely double whammy of toll increases this year.  Because of COVID, the next 6% increase may be effective in October instead of January 2021.  This is on top of the 6% increase in January. 

Also, toll-by-plate rates would jump (another?) 45% to account for cashless tolling (effectively creating a 2x spread between E-ZPass and toll-by-plate rates).  Effectively, a cross state toll (Pittsburgh to Valley Forge) without E-ZPass could cost $64 one-way.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/infrastructure-project-finance/fitch-rates-penn-turnpike-sen-rev-bonds-2nd-ser-of-2020-a-affirms-outstanding-bonds-12-06-202

At some point the seemingly endless stream of cash from PTC to Pennsylvania transit agencies is going to cause something to break.  Either the PTC will not be able to issue more debt because questions will arise about its ability to pay it back (perhaps due to a crash in revenue-paying traffic), or maybe there will be a voter revolt against the ever-higher tolls to subsidize transit projects that have nothing to do with the Turnpike. 

Or maybe something else.  But I do not think the Act 44/Act 89 payments will continue forever.

Get a 404 on that link. This seems to work: https://www.fitchratings.com/research/infrastructure-project-finance/fitch-rates-penn-turnpike-sen-rev-bonds-2nd-ser-of-2020-a-affirms-outstanding-bonds-12-06-2020 (https://www.fitchratings.com/research/infrastructure-project-finance/fitch-rates-penn-turnpike-sen-rev-bonds-2nd-ser-of-2020-a-affirms-outstanding-bonds-12-06-2020)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on June 15, 2020, 08:41:45 AM
At some point the seemingly endless stream of cash from PTC to Pennsylvania transit agencies is going to cause something to break.  Either the PTC will not be able to issue more debt because questions will arise about its ability to pay it back (perhaps due to a crash in revenue-paying traffic), or maybe there will be a voter revolt against the ever-higher tolls to subsidize transit projects that have nothing to do with the Turnpike. 

Or maybe something else.  But I do not think the Act 44/Act 89 payments will continue forever.

The PA General Assembly went with payments from the Turnpike specifically because they were trying to avoid the voters by increasing other taxes and fees. Tapping out the PTC money machine might stop the payments, but I don't think concerns regarding voters will.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 16, 2020, 09:10:08 AM
At some point the seemingly endless stream of cash from PTC to Pennsylvania transit agencies is going to cause something to break.  Either the PTC will not be able to issue more debt because questions will arise about its ability to pay it back (perhaps due to a crash in revenue-paying traffic), or maybe there will be a voter revolt against the ever-higher tolls to subsidize transit projects that have nothing to do with the Turnpike. 

Or maybe something else.  But I do not think the Act 44/Act 89 payments will continue forever.

The PA General Assembly went with payments from the Turnpike specifically because they were trying to avoid the voters by increasing other taxes and fees. Tapping out the PTC money machine might stop the payments, but I don't think concerns regarding voters will.

My cynical view agrees with you. In spite of claims from transit advocates, transit subsidy funding is not especially popular with the elected officials that have to come up with the dollars to pay for it.  If the politicians can come up with ways to make other people make the subsidy payments (and the Pennsylvania Turnpike does carry a lot of out-of-state traffic) then clearly they will do that. The scheme to toll I-80 was also about getting those subsidies from Other People.  The originator of Act 44, disgraced state ex-Sen. Vince Fumo (D-Philadelphia) clearly understood this.

Other popular ways of getting subsidy payments from out-of-state people include taxes on rental cars and bed taxes on hotels and other lodging (these are taxes on people that generally do not place much demand on government services in the places they are visiting). Transit promoters will often suggest these as "painless" ways to pay for expensive (to build and to operate) passenger rail projects.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 16, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
At some point the seemingly endless stream of cash from PTC to Pennsylvania transit agencies is going to cause something to break.  Either the PTC will not be able to issue more debt because questions will arise about its ability to pay it back (perhaps due to a crash in revenue-paying traffic), or maybe there will be a voter revolt against the ever-higher tolls to subsidize transit projects that have nothing to do with the Turnpike. 

Or maybe something else.  But I do not think the Act 44/Act 89 payments will continue forever.

The PA General Assembly went with payments from the Turnpike specifically because they were trying to avoid the voters by increasing other taxes and fees. Tapping out the PTC money machine might stop the payments, but I don't think concerns regarding voters will.

My cynical view agrees with you. In spite of claims from transit advocates, transit subsidy funding is not especially popular with the elected officials that have to come up with the dollars to pay for it.  If the politicians can come up with ways to make other people make the subsidy payments (and the Pennsylvania Turnpike does carry a lot of out-of-state traffic) then clearly they will do that. The scheme to toll I-80 was also about getting those subsidies from Other People.  The originator of Act 44, disgraced state ex-Sen. Vince Fumo (D-Philadelphia) clearly understood this.

Other popular ways of getting subsidy payments from out-of-state people include taxes on rental cars and bed taxes on hotels and other lodging (these are taxes on people that generally do not place much demand on government services in the places they are visiting). Transit promoters will often suggest these as "painless" ways to pay for expensive (to build and to operate) passenger rail projects.

It doesn't help when goods have to be shipped using the Turnpike or businesses have to use it between job sites.  The Philly area also has significant commuter traffic on the Turnpike.  Traveling across state by car to visit family is costing me well over $100 round trip now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 16, 2020, 11:04:22 AM
It doesn't help when goods have to be shipped using the Turnpike or businesses have to use it between job sites.  The Philly area also has significant commuter traffic on the Turnpike.  Traveling across state by car to visit family is costing me well over $100 round trip now.

You have an excellent point. 

I think the powers-that-be in the Pennsylvania legislature are so would up in getting large amounts of subsidy dollars to SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County (and the smaller Pennsylvania transit operators) that they lose sight of the human impact of these jumbo-sized tolls on people that live inside and outside Pennsylvania. 

And if all that money was going to things like Turnpike widenings and repair and rehabilitation of the PTC's many tunnels, it might be less painful.  But pouring it down the black hole of transit subsidies means most Turnpike patrons never see the impact of that money.

In a fictional world the subsidies from Pennsylvania Turnpike customers would end and the cost of subsidizing transit would be shifted to higher taxes on motor fuels in the counties served by those transit agencies.  Of course, even if that were happen today, the bonds sold by the PTC to make those black hole payments would still be on the books, and they will take decades to amortize down to zero, so tolls on Turnpike patrons are not going to be lower anytime soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on June 16, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
It doesn't help when goods have to be shipped using the Turnpike or businesses have to use it between job sites.  The Philly area also has significant commuter traffic on the Turnpike.  Traveling across state by car to visit family is costing me well over $100 round trip now.

You have an excellent point. 

I think the powers-that-be in the Pennsylvania legislature are so would up in getting large amounts of subsidy dollars to SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County (and the smaller Pennsylvania transit operators) that they lose sight of the human impact of these jumbo-sized tolls on people that live inside and outside Pennsylvania. 

And if all that money was going to things like Turnpike widenings and repair and rehabilitation of the PTC's many tunnels, it might be less painful.  But pouring it down the black hole of transit subsidies means most Turnpike patrons never see the impact of that money.

In a fictional world the subsidies from Pennsylvania Turnpike customers would end and the cost of subsidizing transit would be shifted to higher taxes on motor fuels in the counties served by those transit agencies.  Of course, even if that were happen today, the bonds sold by the PTC to make those black hole payments would still be on the books, and they will take decades to amortize down to zero, so tolls on Turnpike patrons are not going to be lower anytime soon.

The good news is that, unless something changes, FY 2022 is the last year that the PTC will owe $450 million to PennDOT.  Starting in FY 2023 that payment goes down to $50 million. Of course the debt from over a decade of excessive Act 44 payments will take much longer to be paid off...

Finding funding for mass transit is more complex in PA than simply raising the gas tax, and is partly the reason for Act 44 in the first place. In PA, gas taxes, car registration fees, and some other funding sources are constitutionally limited to roads and cannot be used for transit. So, even if a regional gas tax were implemented (which would be a hard sell in a state with the second-highest gas taxes to begin with), those revenues would only be able to go to roads. Act 89 (which partially sunsets the Act 44 transfers in 2022) will use motor vehicle sales taxes to make up the $400 million that the Turnpike will no longer provide. Those are revenues that may need to be made up elsewhere i.e. higher taxes...
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 16, 2020, 09:14:10 PM
The good news is that, unless something changes, FY 2022 is the last year that the PTC will owe $450 million to PennDOT.  Starting in FY 2023 that payment goes down to $50 million. Of course the debt from over a decade of excessive Act 44 payments will take much longer to be paid off...

I think that is correct on all points.

Finding funding for mass transit is more complex in PA than simply raising the gas tax, and is partly the reason for Act 44 in the first place. In PA, gas taxes, car registration fees, and some other funding sources are constitutionally limited to roads and cannot be used for transit. So, even if a regional gas tax were implemented (which would be a hard sell in a state with the second-highest gas taxes to begin with), those revenues would only be able to go to roads. Act 89 (which partially sunsets the Act 44 transfers in 2022) will use motor vehicle sales taxes to make up the $400 million that the Turnpike will no longer provide. Those are revenues that may need to be made up elsewhere i.e. higher taxes...

My understanding from a friend who is a transit geek (especially SEPTA) is that the prohibition on diversion of fuel taxes away from highways applies to taxes collected at the retail level (pump), but that the prohibition does not apply to taxes collected at the wholesale level.

Virginia passed a large increase in the Commonwealth's motor fuel tax and imposed all of it at the wholesale level for similar  reasons.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on June 16, 2020, 11:37:35 PM
Are all the guide signs  at ramps now going to be purple like PA 903 in Carbon County at the AET interchange there?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on June 17, 2020, 01:15:54 AM
Are all the guide signs  at ramps now going to be purple like PA 903 in Carbon County at the AET interchange there?
No.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on June 17, 2020, 01:59:54 AM
Well I would think not as that would be an expensive undertaking, but will they change the PA 903 entrance signs to standard green as those ramps will no longer be exclusive to AET (or at least one of the few) around. 

Exit 31 A & B Northbound on the NE Extension can now be consolidated back to a single exit once again as well.

Biggest thing is Texas did all purple in Harris County on one toll road and looks like Disney, glad to see PennDOT not doing what they did there.  As crazy as it sounds for this Turnpike System, if one toll road agency has done it who is to say that someone else cannot be as crazy.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on June 17, 2020, 05:08:49 AM
The good news is that, unless something changes, FY 2022 is the last year that the PTC will owe $450 million to PennDOT.  Starting in FY 2023 that payment goes down to $50 million. Of course the debt from over a decade of excessive Act 44 payments will take much longer to be paid off...

I think that is correct on all points.

Finding funding for mass transit is more complex in PA than simply raising the gas tax, and is partly the reason for Act 44 in the first place. In PA, gas taxes, car registration fees, and some other funding sources are constitutionally limited to roads and cannot be used for transit. So, even if a regional gas tax were implemented (which would be a hard sell in a state with the second-highest gas taxes to begin with), those revenues would only be able to go to roads. Act 89 (which partially sunsets the Act 44 transfers in 2022) will use motor vehicle sales taxes to make up the $400 million that the Turnpike will no longer provide. Those are revenues that may need to be made up elsewhere i.e. higher taxes...

My understanding from a friend who is a transit geek (especially SEPTA) is that the prohibition on diversion of fuel taxes away from highways applies to taxes collected at the retail level (pump), but that the prohibition does not apply to taxes collected at the wholesale level.

Virginia passed a large increase in the Commonwealth's motor fuel tax and imposed all of it at the wholesale level for similar  reasons.

The PA Constitution makes no distinction between retail and wholesale gas taxes. The only loophole is the part about safety, which enables the diversion of gas taxes to the State Police (which is itself controversial).
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=00&div=0&chpt=8&sctn=11&subsctn=0

Although our gas taxes are all collected at the wholesale level, they still cannot be used to fund transit, hence the problem with the Turnpike and Act 44 (no prohibition on toll revenue usage=non-tax source of funds).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 16, 2020, 04:31:20 PM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct). 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 17, 2020, 11:56:21 AM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
It probably read both transponders. I have a WV E-ZPass and always see the license plate shown in records from PA reads.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on July 17, 2020, 12:22:59 PM
For what it’s worth, I have a PTC-issued transponder and have made a number of weekend trips involving various roads in the PTC network and in neighboring states, and I haven’t encountered any misreads or billing errors.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 19, 2020, 08:27:09 PM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
Two transponders?  Penny wise...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 20, 2020, 03:51:22 AM
Saw the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission's E-ZPass test site on the I-476 Northeast Extension of the Turnpike.  It spans the Turnpike between the Keyser Avenue interchange (Exit 122) and Clarks Summit (I-81, U.S. 11, U.S. 6) (Exit 131).  I was  not able to safely stop and snap an image, but its appearance was different from other gantries on the PTC network. 

More can be found here (https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/TRA_tests_new_vcs.aspx).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 20, 2020, 10:00:36 AM
Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
It probably read both transponders. I have a WV E-ZPass and always see the license plate shown in records from PA reads.

Actually the other transponder wasn't even in the car.  I did receive a reversal the next day, though not before I was hit with $50 of reloads.

Maybe it's just luck but I seem to be having a ton of E-ZPass billing issues with the Turnpike this month.  I use the North Carolina E-ZPass but also have a New York E-ZPass for travel to that state (my car has been registered to both for years).  I made a trip on July 1 and just noticed that my NC transponder was read (and billed) but I was also charged on my NY account via license plate lookup a week later (transaction times were identical).  I was also overcharged for another trip in the Philly area (the amount didn't even match up to a different axle count, and my return toll was correct).
Two transponders?  Penny wise...

When NYC area bridges penalize you significantly for not using their E-ZPass, you hold two accounts.  The NC one allows HOT lane access around DC as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on July 20, 2020, 11:30:08 AM
I suspect these cases of double-billing where the same car is registered to two different transponders under the same interoperability network are the result of license plates receiving priority over transponders in the toll processing control flow.  I wonder what would happen if the license plate number was temporarily changed for the transponder that is not currently being used, so that in-network license plate lookup (if used as an alternative to a read from the transponder being used) lands on the account that is intended to be charged.

This situation is actually another argument for a ban on transponder discrimination since it eliminates the incentive to have multiple transponders from the same interoperability network.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2020, 03:55:21 PM
I suspect these cases of double-billing where the same car is registered to two different transponders under the same interoperability network are the result of license plates receiving priority over transponders in the toll processing control flow.  I wonder what would happen if the license plate number was temporarily changed for the transponder that is not currently being used, so that in-network license plate lookup (if used as an alternative to a read from the transponder being used) lands on the account that is intended to be charged.

This situation is actually another argument for a ban on transponder discrimination since it eliminates the incentive to have multiple transponders from the same interoperability network.

License plates are only supposed to be viewed if the tag isn't read when the car goes thru the tolling area.  This process usually take a few days as well to go thru the back office.  There's not enough staff to monitor the hundreds of thousands of tag reads every day.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on July 20, 2020, 04:33:11 PM
Saw the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission's E-ZPass test site on the I-476 Northeast Extension of the Turnpike.  It spans the Turnpike between the Keyser Avenue interchange (Exit 122) and Clarks Summit (I-81, U.S. 11, U.S. 6) (Exit 131).  I was  not able to safely stop and snap an image, but its appearance was different from other gantries on the PTC network. 

More can be found here (https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/TRA_tests_new_vcs.aspx).

I noticed the northbound side appears to have the extra classification equipment (there are more devices pointed at the lanes) - or perhaps a different product.

It seems an interesting choice, northbound, that they placed a portable message sign in what would be the left lane to remind not to stop (seems like there is ample room at the shoulder, or to use one of the right lanes for such notice). I wonder if they will post overhead signs over each lane or opt for a different system for all lanes that either use the prism or fixed signage. (I assume the LED versions all have been updated with E-Z Pass or TOLL BY PLATE icons).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 21, 2020, 10:33:21 AM
The 6% toll increase and 45% billing surcharge have now been approved.  However, they are taking effect in January (as usual) rather than earlier (as previously reported)

https://liber.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/07/21/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-toll-increase-E-ZPass-Toll-By-Plate-surcharge/stories/202007210058
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on July 21, 2020, 10:44:36 AM
License plates are only supposed to be viewed if the tag isn't read when the car goes thru the tolling area.  This process usually take a few days as well to go thru the back office.  There's not enough staff to monitor the hundreds of thousands of tag reads every day.

Masternc says he did not have the transponder for the North Carolina account in his car when he was charged the "foreign" E-ZPass toll.  This is why I hypothesize they were searching for his license plate number and found it first with the NC account.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 21, 2020, 11:26:59 AM
License plates are only supposed to be viewed if the tag isn't read when the car goes thru the tolling area.  This process usually take a few days as well to go thru the back office.  There's not enough staff to monitor the hundreds of thousands of tag reads every day.

Masternc says he did not have the transponder for the North Carolina account in his car when he was charged the "foreign" E-ZPass toll.  This is why I hypothesize they were searching for his license plate number and found it first with the NC account.

It was the other way around.  The NC tag was in the car and the NY tag was not.  Somehow the toll was charged to the transponder yet was still sent to license plate lookup.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on July 21, 2020, 08:55:15 PM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 22, 2020, 08:34:45 AM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on July 22, 2020, 08:41:36 AM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay

I think it's much easier for the consumer as well.  You fly thru a lane and keep going.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on July 22, 2020, 09:07:31 AM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay

I think it's much easier for the consumer as well.  You fly thru a lane and keep going.

Yes, I know what's that like (as a driver and as a passenger).   "Pay your toll while you roll" - I remember that slogan from a radio spot for Delaware E-ZPasses in the early 2000's.

SignBridge, are you nostalgic also for lonnnnng toll gate backups?  Be careful what you pine for.

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 1995hoo on July 22, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
I think back to how much time was wasted waiting on line to pay the tolls in the cash-only era. My father's strategy was always to go as far to the right at the toll plaza as possible. Reason: Trucks are almost always directed to stay to the right. There are far fewer trucks per line than there are cars and you often got through faster in those lanes even though trucks are slower to accelerate away than cars are.

Look at what a mess you get when the E-ZPass Only lanes are simply converted cash lanes with no significant barrier separation from the cash lanes. The Tydings Bridge toll plaza in Maryland was long a good example of that, as cash-payers would bomb down the approach to the E-ZPass lanes and then block everyone trying to shove right to cut the line.

Last time we drove to Montreal, I estimated we probably saved 20 minutes to half an hour by using E-ZPass due to some of the toll plazas having fairly long queues.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on July 22, 2020, 09:41:39 AM
I think back to how much time was wasted waiting on line to pay the tolls in the cash-only era. My father's strategy was always to go as far to the right at the toll plaza as possible. Reason: Trucks are almost always directed to stay to the right. There are far fewer trucks per line than there are cars and you often got through faster in those lanes even though trucks are slower to accelerate away than cars are.

Look at what a mess you get when the E-ZPass Only lanes are simply converted cash lanes with no significant barrier separation from the cash lanes. The Tydings Bridge toll plaza in Maryland was long a good example of that, as cash-payers would bomb down the approach to the E-ZPass lanes and then block everyone trying to shove right to cut the line.

That was always my exact strategy at the very same Tydings Bridge toll plaza (before I got E-ZPass, anyway).  At least when MDTA recently resurfaced the approach & departure from that toll plaza, they did a better job separating the E-ZPass lanes on approach via lane striping and E-ZPass markers on the pavement (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5866054,-76.075818,3a,20.7y,53.65h,87.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slNRTxzpliFbKQQOpX-ykng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) - usually those lanes wouldn't get messed up by cash queuing in recent experiences.

(Currently there is none of that mess since MDTA still has yet to resume cash collections, but that's neither here nor there.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2020, 01:13:34 PM
Life was so damned much simpler before E-Z Pass when we just paid cash and exchanged greetings with the collector........

Also much more expensive.  Staffing toll collection points 24/7/365 is not cheap, and on the Pennsylvania Turnpike there were a lot of them. Collecting, counting, securing, transporting and processing all of that cash is also expensive.

I think SignBridge meant for the consumer.  Yes, cpz, what you listed is true - expensive for the agency operating the road or crossing.

But in the COVID-19 era, are we to consider AET a blessing (in disguise or otherwise), since there is no cash to be handled?

ixnay

I think it's much easier for the consumer as well.  You fly thru a lane and keep going.
From a time saved perspective, perhaps, but it introduces issues.  If you don't have a transponder, you have to hope everything works properly with bill by mail, lest you get late and nonpayment fees (often exorbitant) added on top of your bill by mail and plate lookup surcharges (themselves often on top of a higher bill by mail toll rate).  Even if you do have a transponder, there are often tag deposits and/or annual fees, and transponder discrimination is more common than not.  Back when cash was king, the toll was the toll was the toll - everybody paid the same rate, nothing added on top.  That is unfortunately no longer.  While discounts for transponder users do make sense from the perspective that it costs less to collect tolls from them, it has gotten well out of hand.

This doesn't even go into the issues experienced by drivers of rental cars.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on July 22, 2020, 09:36:00 PM
Thank you vdeane for those good points! All of you have made good points too. It's worth noting however that some of the time saved on the road with E-Z Pass is lost in other ways.
 
1) Setting up your account, passwords etc.

2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

3) Checking your statement when you receive it. Potential billing errors requiring corrective action, etc.

I was fortunate that most of my long distance toll-road trips thru the years were made mid-week/mid-day so luckily I didn't encounter many toll plaza back-ups, so I don't have those bad memories. And yeah, I have to agree it's nice to just glide thru those express E-Z Pass lanes where they exist. But being an old school kind of guy, I just preferred the older less complicated ways.

 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on July 22, 2020, 09:52:32 PM
The amount of time I save from not having to stop -one time- at the Throgs Neck Bridge to have my transponder read more than offsets going to a website to set up an account (took 10 minutes with my NY transponder using my mobile device and Lastpass), mounting the EZ Pass in 1 minute and never having to replace the mounting strips (because my car is 4 years old and how often do you replace cars?), and reading my email with my attached statement, which takes all of 1 to 5 minutes (as a frequent user).

I find it less complicated to just drive through at highway speeds than to sit at a toll plaza for 30 minutes, fish for change or dollar bills (or worse, exact change) or wait to have the transponder read before a gate, but your mileage may vary. It is far faster, though, to just use EZ Pass; the other details, such as installing the EZ Pass and going to the website, take so little time to complete.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2020, 11:05:07 PM
2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

How much f'ing time does it take you to mount the EZ Pass that this could possibly have been thought of as an excuse?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ilpt4u on July 22, 2020, 11:46:38 PM
2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

How much f'ing time does it take you to mount the EZ Pass that this could possibly have been thought of as an excuse?
Even if you have to get the Front License Plate mount transponder, due to windshield/car issues with having it inside the glass, it STILL saves time over 1 rush hour wait at a Cash Only booth. It doesn’t take that long to find a screwdriver, unscrew two screws, and then tighten them back down

I remember as a kid, sitting in extremely long holiday waits at the 82nd/83rd St and 163rd St Tolls on ISTHA’s Tri-State. Guess what? Even when Low Speed I-Pass Only lanes were first installed at 82nd/83rd St, and then at 163 St, it made a difference. When the I-Pass Express/ORT conversion occurred, it was a night and day difference compared to Cash only tolling
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on July 23, 2020, 07:21:14 AM
I think back to how much time was wasted waiting on line to pay the tolls in the cash-only era.

The dramatic time savings is experienced by commuters.

When the PA Turnpike instituted EZPass, I had been using the road to commute to my work at the PennDOT District 6-0 office. There was somewhat of a backup getting on the Turnpike, but the real backup was waiting in line to exit, especially at the Valley Forge toll Plaza every morning. The backups virtually evaporated when EZPass became operational (after two or three days for drivers to get used to the new setup).

Including the traffic delays getting on and off in both directions, morning and evening, I estimated at the time that I gained an extra half hour with my family every day. That's significant right there, but add that up over the course of a year and you've got a huge difference.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on July 23, 2020, 08:08:59 AM
The turnpike bridge replacement over PA 380 Saltsburg road in Plum borough is in the final phase. PA 380 is closed for the next 30 days or so while final work wraps up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 23, 2020, 09:18:04 AM
2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

How much f'ing time does it take you to mount the EZ Pass that this could possibly have been thought of as an excuse?
Even if you have to get the Front License Plate mount transponder, due to windshield/car issues with having it inside the glass, it STILL saves time over 1 rush hour wait at a Cash Only booth. It doesn’t take that long to find a screwdriver, unscrew two screws, and then tighten them back down

I remember as a kid, sitting in extremely long holiday waits at the 82nd/83rd St and 163rd St Tolls on ISTHA’s Tri-State. Guess what? Even when Low Speed I-Pass Only lanes were first installed at 82nd/83rd St, and then at 163 St, it made a difference. When the I-Pass Express/ORT conversion occurred, it was a night and day difference compared to Cash only tolling
It does take time - and sometimes money - to dispute a billing mistake. A lot of time, sometimes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 23, 2020, 11:47:21 AM
The turnpike bridge replacement over PA 380 Saltsburg road in Plum borough is in the final phase. PA 380 is closed for the next 30 days or so while final work wraps up.
  Was it built to carry 6 lanes?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on July 23, 2020, 12:15:29 PM
Thank you vdeane for those good points! All of you have made good points too. It's worth noting however that some of the time saved on the road with E-Z Pass is lost in other ways.
 
1) Setting up your account, passwords etc.

2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

3) Checking your statement when you receive it. Potential billing errors requiring corrective action, etc.

I was fortunate that most of my long distance toll-road trips thru the years were made mid-week/mid-day so luckily I didn't encounter many toll plaza back-ups, so I don't have those bad memories. And yeah, I have to agree it's nice to just glide thru those express E-Z Pass lanes where they exist. But being an old school kind of guy, I just preferred the older less complicated ways.

I have used toll roads in what is now E-ZPass territory only for leisure travel.  My heaviest use of them was over 20 years ago, when traffic volumes were significantly lower and before electronic toll payment options existed on any significant scale, let alone ones offering interoperability among agencies.  Yet I can remember a single Fourth of July backup at the mainline toll plaza on the Delaware Turnpike that ate up more time than I later spent ordering an I-Pass, mounting it, setting up an Illinois Tollway account, and archiving my transaction history (I have never had to dispute an E-ZPass transaction, which is not at all the case with my K-Tag account, where I am aware of at least two errors and would probably find more if I ever did a full audit).

While I suspect the auditing burden is probably higher for commuters than for leisure travellers owing to there being more transactions to keep track of, the time savings at toll plazas are probably higher because of the reduced flexibility to schedule travel away from peak periods.  My experience suggests that a transponder becomes more trouble than it is worth only for agencies that process a low volume of transactions and use poorly calibrated equipment, which I suspect is the case with the Kansas Turnpike.  E-ZPass is very reliable partly because it has been around for about 20 years, so it is technologically mature, and low-volume agencies benefit from standards designed to accommodate the reliability needs of the New Jersey Turnpike and other agencies that handle extremely high levels of commuter traffic.

Mind you, I have long opposed E-ZPass becoming the basis of a national interoperability standard, but this is only because of its reliance on active transponders.  As long as the batteries have juice . . . it just works.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
I wonder how many people forgo credit cards and their benefits and just use cash.  Hopefully no one goes thru the pain of ever using checks, since that requires time to order and record everything in a check register.  Hell, that requires a bank account.  What if you found extra money taken out of your account?  That's gonna take time to sort out.  Maybe you all don't even use computers and just write letters, saving the time of having to plug in the keyboard.

Anyway, billing mistakes can happen anywhere.  Narrowing it down to just electronic tolling is micro nitpicking of it.

BTW, I should point out that even before EZ Pass and electronic tolling, Cash still wasn't the only option.  At the DRPA Bridges, you could pay for a UPC scan sticker on the side window to receive a discount on tolls.  The Rt. 40 Bridge in Maryland still had these up until relatively recently, and you'll occasionally find an older car with the sticker still stuck on the window.  The Del. Memorial Bridge would sell books of tickets that give an discount.  The Garden State Parkway and other authorities had tokens that netted a discount. 

So don't forget the history of tolling - discounts were still available, and other methods to pay existed.  And not only that, but with many of these methods if you didn't utilize them to the full potential, you may have even lost money.  And you certainly lost time too.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ilpt4u on July 23, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
Not sure about the other EZ Pass agencies, but ISTHA has cash options for I-Pass. Either stop at the I-Pass service centers at ISTHA HQ in Downers Grove or at the I-Pass service centers at the Oases and buy an I-Pass “gift card” /replinishment card with cash. Those cards can also be purchased at Jewel-Osco stores in the Chicagoland area, and purchased with cash

Then you have to call the 800 number or log into your account on the getipass.com website to have the value of the card added to your transponder account

Yes, it adds more steps. But Cash travel is still available via this process, no CC required
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2020, 01:24:16 PM
Not sure about the other EZ Pass agencies, but ISTHA has cash options for I-Pass. Either stop at the I-Pass service centers at ISTHA HQ in Downers Grove or at the I-Pass service centers at the Oases and buy an I-Pass “gift card” /replinishment card with cash. Those cards can also be purchased at Jewel-Osco stores in the Chicagoland area, and purchased with cash

Then you have to call the 800 number or log into your account on the getipass.com website to have the value of the card added to your transponder account

Yes, it adds more steps. But Cash travel is still available via this process, no CC required

This can be done in EZ Pass land as well; the methods and locations vary by state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 23, 2020, 01:45:02 PM
Anyway, billing mistakes can happen anywhere.  Narrowing it down to just electronic tolling is micro nitpicking of it.
Billing mistakes can happen anywhere, including issues with lost ticket on a cash toll. Problem is that EZpass family used to be one of the worst vendors to fix such mistakes. Being quazi-government agencies allowed them to be very heavy-handed without a path to hold the agency responsible.   Looks like they improved, my last billing error was resolved with a single e-mail, though. 

On a grand scheme of things, I have two issues in terms of business ethics:
- EZpass  fails to give out any confirmation of transaction until days, sometimes weeks later.
- being able to close AET transaction on a spot is a must for infrequent user - tourist etc. Online pre-payment is a tolerable, but not the best option.

My impression is that both of these are not real technical problems, but a deliberate attempt to screw people.
Toll collection in general is begging to be heavily regulated under the interstate commerce clause - and when toll agencies are screwed, I would say they brought harsh regulation on themselves.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 23, 2020, 02:34:43 PM
My transactions pop up online very quickly, so I don't know about this idea that it takes days or weeks to see them.  Perhaps if you're only sitting around waiting for a paper statement?  That'd be odd for someone who purchases an E-ZPass, which requires the account to be filled to be tolled against.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 23, 2020, 02:48:46 PM
My transactions pop up online very quickly, so I don't know about this idea that it takes days or weeks to see them.  Perhaps if you're only sitting around waiting for a paper statement?  That'd be odd for someone who purchases an E-ZPass, which requires the account to be filled to be tolled against.

I have heard that this is an issue on the I-495 and I-95 HOT Lanes the one time I drove them.  I am unsure if that is still the case.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on July 23, 2020, 03:23:13 PM
My transactions pop up online very quickly, so I don't know about this idea that it takes days or weeks to see them.  Perhaps if you're only sitting around waiting for a paper statement?  That'd be odd for someone who purchases an E-ZPass, which requires the account to be filled to be tolled against.

My experience suggests that reliability is a function of maturity in both technology and back-office procedure that builds up with time and transaction volume.  I've never had a problem with any of the E-ZPass agencies whose infrastructure I have used (Illinois Tollway, Ohio Turnpike, and New York Thruway).  On the other hand, with a passive RFID sticker-type tag for the KS/OK/TX interoperability area, I've had transactions post right away for OTA and NTTA, but delays of as long as a week for the Kansas Turnpike (KTA still uses gated electronic toll lanes; the other agencies got rid of them years ago).

I do not get paper statements from any toll agency.  The posting delays I see are all online.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2020, 04:02:32 PM
Not that I usually look, but my EZ Pass transactions are all posted within a few days at the very most.

If someone is waiting weeks to see a transaction posted, that indicated more of an issue with their own account and not a system-wide issue.

I always think of EZ Pass like a Visa or Mastercard.  If you have an issue with a transaction, it's not "Visa" that has the issue, it's the card company you hold the card with (Chase, Capital One, etc).  And it's not that ALL Visa transactions take forever to post; it's almost always a localized issue with either the person's account, or maybe the store where the transactions occurred.

So, before you go thinking that the entire industry countrywide is screwing people over, maybe just check to make sure your tag is working properly...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 23, 2020, 07:34:51 PM
Not that I usually look, but my EZ Pass transactions are all posted within a few days at the very most.

If someone is waiting weeks to see a transaction posted, that indicated more of an issue with their own account and not a system-wide issue.

I always think of EZ Pass like a Visa or Mastercard.  If you have an issue with a transaction, it's not "Visa" that has the issue, it's the card company you hold the card with (Chase, Capital One, etc).  And it's not that ALL Visa transactions take forever to post; it's almost always a localized issue with either the person's account, or maybe the store where the transactions occurred.

So, before you go thinking that the entire industry countrywide is screwing people over, maybe just check to make sure your tag is working properly...
Great points - this is exactly where differences are!
Banks are federally regulated. Toll roads seem to be completely unregulated.
Credit card transaction is put on hold after one phone call and bank starts investigating. Toll road billing issue is up to you to prove.
In case of read problems, credit card is in the mail the same day - they refused to replace a problematic tag for me ("it reads OK on a test station"). Got replaced a year later after 10 year battery lifetime exchange

As for read confirmation - "successful read" signal is implemented on chip level, but not used on a tag level. You never know when, or if, your tag is read. Which is, I believe, the only situation when money are deducted from the account without me being explicitly informed about it. Which is IMHO a problematic approach. I certainly don't want to log into account after each trip to check for billing errors. I had 4 so far that I know of, more than what I had over the same period on credit cards which I use much more often.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on July 23, 2020, 08:03:13 PM
As for read confirmation - "successful read" signal is implemented on chip level, but not used on a tag level. You never know when, or if, your tag is read. Which is, I believe, the only situation when money are deducted from the account without me being explicitly informed about it. Which is IMHO a problematic approach. I certainly don't want to log into account after each trip to check for billing errors. I had 4 so far that I know of, more than what I had over the same period on credit cards which I use much more often.

How did these errors make themselves evident?  Are we talking wrong classification, wrong entry or exit, or . . . ?

My problems with KTA have all involved wrong entry/exit.  I've had one toll from OTA that was marked as "irregular" and one toll gate transit in Illinois where the light flashed yellow instead of blue for a new transponder but the toll posted normally (no video toll).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 23, 2020, 08:45:26 PM
As for read confirmation - "successful read" signal is implemented on chip level, but not used on a tag level. You never know when, or if, your tag is read. Which is, I believe, the only situation when money are deducted from the account without me being explicitly informed about it. Which is IMHO a problematic approach. I certainly don't want to log into account after each trip to check for billing errors. I had 4 so far that I know of, more than what I had over the same period on credit cards which I use much more often.

How did these errors make themselves evident?  Are we talking wrong classification, wrong entry or exit, or . . . ?

My problems with KTA have all involved wrong entry/exit.  I've had one toll from OTA that was marked as "irregular" and one toll gate transit in Illinois where the light flashed yellow instead of blue for a new transponder but the toll posted normally (no video toll).
I had a toll billed on a then-toll free stretch of Masspike. It wasn't a lot, like 45 cents - that is 45 cents more than it should be. The only way to appeal a toll at that point was by sending a physical letter - and stamp cost was 42 cents or so.
I had an entry read not matched to the exit read, and a full Thruway toll charged on a two-exit dash.
I had a faulty read with "please call" message, calling - noone in the office. A full-length toll was charged - a month or so later, billed by the license plate -  IN ADDITION to correct EZpass toll charged to account next day. Of course, I saw a toll going through and didn't call for the second time. Took a while to get settled. including some pretty exotic customer service experience ("agent who had your file no longer works for us, you have to re-send all the documents again!")
 
So my overall EZpass experience is... less than great.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on July 23, 2020, 08:55:23 PM
Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on July 23, 2020, 09:19:37 PM
I had a toll billed on a then-toll free stretch of Masspike. It wasn't a lot, like 45 cents - that is 45 cents more than it should be. The only way to appeal a toll at that point was by sending a physical letter - and stamp cost was 42 cents or so.

I also had a Masspike screwup once - I entered at Sturbridge and continued all the way to Boston, and it split up the 84-to-95/128 charge into an entry at gantry 83 +  exit at gantry 109, and entry at gantry 104 + exit at gantry 120, which meant I essentially got double-charged at gantries 104 & 109. Which amounted to an 80-cent overcharge, so I also decided it wasn’t worth the time or hassle to fight.

Otherwise, my E-ZPass track record has been pretty good thus far - it’s interesting noticing the different lag times between agencies. NJTA often posts the same day, PTC is always 2-3 days, whereas MassDOT took a week the first time I used the Pike with E-ZPass. MDTA (which is who I have my account thru) took a whole month on a few Tydings Bridge charges earlier this year, but I suspect this may have been because MDTA had recently upgraded its tolling hardware at the time.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on July 25, 2020, 02:12:08 AM
The turnpike bridge replacement over PA 380 Saltsburg road in Plum borough is in the final phase. PA 380 is closed for the next 30 days or so while final work wraps up.
  Was it built to carry 6 lanes?

Actually, PA 380/Saltsburg Road passes over the Turnpike (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4751433,-79.76781,3a,75y,82.79h,89.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz1-pjmDheQWLGVry9lYt9A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), and yes, the Turnpike will be widened to six lanes. Preparatory work is being done all along the segment from MM 49 to MM 67 (https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp53to57/), which extends from Oakmont Country Club to the U.S. 30/Irwin interchange. That's the most heavily-traveled segment of Turnpike in western Pennsylvania, passing through the eastern suburbs of Pittsburgh. Once that segment is widened, the Turnpike will be six lanes from I-79 to the I-70 west junction, except a small segment near MM 39 that requires a long bridge replacement (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6130331,-79.9699339,3a,75y,91.53h,88.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sA-_4o1hYytvhN053len37Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and an interchange reconfiguration (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6092079,-79.9476591,3a,75y,118.63h,92.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sU3ctnWIVJx3yFrIO9qXMjQ!2e0!3e11!7i13312!8i6656).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 25, 2020, 09:53:52 AM
Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.
Full length Thruway charge is now $17, plus they can happily add something on top of that
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on July 25, 2020, 11:33:39 AM
Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.

Full length Thruway charge is now $17, plus they can happily add something on top of that

The time cost of disputing erroneous tolls is the main reason I haven't challenged a misattributed entry point that resulted in me paying about a dollar more in toll, let alone performed a full audit of all of my toll transactions (which I can do because I have GPS logs showing where my car actually travelled).  But it is not just the extra cost of a specific transaction that is at stake:  it is also the possibility of paying much more through future instances of the same error.

I have been thinking more in terms of activism.  Going before the supervisory board is one way to stand on agency leadership's toes.  The New York Thruway Authority meets once every two months and every meeting has a public comment period; judging from recent meeting minutes (https://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/meetings/minutes.html), nobody shows up to offer comment.  If someone does and gives the board members an earful about electronic toll reliability issues, that will really make people sit up and pay attention.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2020, 12:05:32 PM
[If someone does and gives the board members an earful about electronic toll reliability issues, that will really make people sit up and pay attention.

 :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

No it won't.

They're hearing from one person regarding a possible single issue, or hearsay about other people's issues, in which the person speaking probably has no proof the toll authority was in the wrong.  The public comment period is for people to voice their concerns or issues. Rarely will something be investigated.

If you want investigation, file a lawsuit.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 25, 2020, 01:01:52 PM
Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.

Full length Thruway charge is now $17, plus they can happily add something on top of that

The time cost of disputing erroneous tolls is the main reason I haven't challenged a misattributed entry point that resulted in me paying about a dollar more in toll, let alone performed a full audit of all of my toll transactions (which I can do because I have GPS logs showing where my car actually travelled).  But it is not just the extra cost of a specific transaction that is at stake:  it is also the possibility of paying much more through future instances of the same error.

I have been thinking more in terms of activism.  Going before the supervisory board is one way to stand on agency leadership's toes.  The New York Thruway Authority meets once every two months and every meeting has a public comment period; judging from recent meeting minutes (https://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/meetings/minutes.html), nobody shows up to offer comment.  If someone does and gives the board members an earful about electronic toll reliability issues, that will really make people sit up and pay attention.
Problem is, there is no leverage. At least for NY Thruway authority - it is somewhere between government and private - it is non-government enough not to care about elections, but government enough not to care about BBB and all that.  On the contrary, their leverage is huge. NY law allows toll agencies to suspend vehicle registration over unpaid tolls - no court, no due process. It is on you to prove what the issue is and resolve it.

So I'm afraid federal regulation is the only thing which can straighten things up.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on July 25, 2020, 03:28:09 PM
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

No it won't.

They're hearing from one person regarding a possible single issue, or hearsay about other people's issues, in which the person speaking probably has no proof the toll authority was in the wrong.  The public comment period is for people to voice their concerns or issues. Rarely will something be investigated.

If you want investigation, file a lawsuit.

Problem is, there is no leverage. At least for NY Thruway authority - it is somewhere between government and private - it is non-government enough not to care about elections, but government enough not to care about BBB and all that.  On the contrary, their leverage is huge. NY law allows toll agencies to suspend vehicle registration over unpaid tolls - no court, no due process. It is on you to prove what the issue is and resolve it.

So I'm afraid federal regulation is the only thing which can straighten things up.

I speak from experience as a member of a board, in this case one that supervises a public library system that operates as a department within city government and where the board members are appointed by members of the city council (each council member getting two appointments).  From time to time we have people come before our board to offer public comment, and each time there is investigation and follow-up.  Admittedly, this can take the form of a determination that there is no hidden iceberg of public concern that lines up with what we hear from the commenters.  But when we do, or allow to be done, something that is really controversial, such that members of the public attend our meetings in large numbers (usually we and senior library management are the only ones in the room), there is a queue of people waiting to comment, the public comment agenda takes up half or more of the usual meeting slot, and there are TV cameras and newspaper reporters present, you'd better believe we sit up and pay attention.

We had to deal with this kind of focused activism when we nodded through a proposal to hold a program modelled on Drag Queen Story Hour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Queen_Story_Hour).  We resisted calls to fire the library director and to institute a programming policy that would forbid the holding of LGBT-themed events in the future.  (The policy we did adopt incorporates American Library Association guidance, which various commenters decried as "progressive.")  However, we did respond to further lobbying by adopting a policy that requires program presenters to be background-checked against the national sex offender registry and the state registry for violent offenders.

So I am not actually suggesting that activism be confined to showing up at a Thruway Authority meeting by oneself.  Organizing, starting by making contact with others who have had similar billing problems, is one way to build leverage.  And going to Authority meetings is just one fork.  Another is to lobby members of the state legislature to take away the Authority's ability to block registration renewals (wasn't a bill to that effect introduced in response to early teething pains with pay-by-mail?).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 25, 2020, 04:33:23 PM
I speak from experience as a member of a board,
I would say the main difference between your experience and NYSTA is that library board takes declared  mission at face value, even if if there is a conflict of  different approaches -  vs. NYSTA, where I would expect things to be less straightforward.
And there is awareness of tolling issues - as I just found out, several agencies (PANYNJ, NYSTA) established Offices of the Toll Payer Advocate as a way to deal with those concerns. This is a step forward - but it basically means that resolution of possible issues is a goodwill thing for the agency, no leverage is given to drivers.
There are also legislative efforts - not to cancel authority right to suspend registrations, but to make sure people are at least fully aware of the situation.

But again - these are mere details explaining why I am not comfortable with the existing situation. The root issues, I believe are still the same - lack of expedite feedback about toll transactions and amounts (especially for non-EZPass users) and lack of ability to settle the transaction on a spot. Which can, and sometimes does, make billing process non-transparent - and then issues have to be resolved with a new office.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2020, 07:48:08 PM
Yeah, a public library board is a far cry from public authorities in NY which have a history of questionable oversight and an unwritten focus on bilking the public (e.g., Robert Moses).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on July 25, 2020, 09:06:42 PM
And again I say LOL, it was so much simpler when we just paid cash, before any electronic toll systems. There was none of this b/s with erroneous toll charges.

But I confess to only occasionally having been caught up in a horrendous traffic jam before a toll as previously described by several on this board. I was lucky enough to do most of my traveling mid-day/mid-week and not on holiday weekends.

I'm sure if I had experienced those horrendous back-ups I would have more appreciation of electronic tolling.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2020, 10:32:28 PM
...and there are TV cameras and newspaper reporters present, you'd better believe we sit up and pay attention.

This may be the result of small town America. I would be hard-pressed to think of any library that had cameras and news reporters present at a meeting in a very long time in the general NJ/NY area.

At the much more large-scale meetings in this area, there may be reporters and cameras present, but I can tell you that there ain't going to be any difference in how the board reacts. The public speaker will state their comments, the board may or may not say anything, and that's generally about it. They're not going to be here to impress media folks.

If you look up the New Jersey Turnpike Authority meeting minutes, you will find there is more often than not people that publicly comment. Past few months have people commenting heavily against a proposed toll increase of which there concerns we're not heeded and the toll increase passed. There's also one guy I pointed out on occasion who tends to bring really odd things up. Not only is he ignored by the board, is ignored by any media people there as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on July 26, 2020, 12:27:30 PM
The turnpike bridge replacement over PA 380 Saltsburg road in Plum borough is in the final phase. PA 380 is closed for the next 30 days or so while final work wraps up.
  Was it built to carry 6 lanes?

Yes. They are also replacing the bridges at Center Rd in Monroeville and Unity Trestle Rd in Plum. All three can fit 6 lanes of traffic on the turnpike. This area between Allegheny Valley and Monroeville is targeted for widening after all the bridge projects are completed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on August 02, 2020, 08:56:44 AM
Someone in a local FB group shared images of two beams being placed last night for the new turnpike bridge carrying Unity Trestle  Road over the mainline in Plum Borough, Allegheny County.

https://imgur.com/Dgd7Ra3 (https://imgur.com/Dgd7Ra3)
https://imgur.com/qffCSuj (https://imgur.com/qffCSuj)
https://imgur.com/7flGDiv (https://imgur.com/7flGDiv)
https://imgur.com/bRAJEye (https://imgur.com/bRAJEye)
https://imgur.com/PAR71hU (https://imgur.com/PAR71hU)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 04, 2020, 03:52:11 PM
Also, I noticed the PTC is installing a new system for two-way operations at the Tuscarora Tunnel.  Starting about a mile before the tunnel, they have installed concrete barrier on the left side with automated swinging barriers.  They are orange semi-circle barriers with black-on-orange chevron symbols.  I'm guessing the purpose is to keep traffic from being in the lane that will handle oncoming traffic inside the tunnel.

Just noticed this in action on one of the webcams.  Kind of neat they can automatically close a lane.

(https://i.ibb.co/K7JYQSD/Annotation-2019-06-18-130714.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
upload (https://imgbb.com/)

I’ve been making weekly trips to Pittsburgh recently (and will continue to do so for some time to come), and I noticed a few new additions to the temporary traffic control setup at Tuscarora Tunnel–related to the rehabilitation project.

The first thing that caught my attention was that a pair of fairly standard three-ball R-Y-G traffic signals had been installed on a mast arm just ahead of the eastern portal of the westbound tube–roughly at the gore point of the WB to EB crossover. This new signal is visible on via the MP 187.4 WB Tuscarora camera on the PTC’s Traffic Cameras page (https://www.paturnpike.com/cameras/). Both lights were green at the time, and both tubes were in normal operation.

But what gave me a brief start was a new setup of directional LEDs embedded in the pavement. At first, I thought my headlights were reflecting off of some broken glass or metallic debris and I bolted to attention. As I got closer, I realized that I was seeing white LEDs forming a large forward-pointing arrow in the direction of travel–two white arrows side-by-side since both lanes were open to westbound traffic. On a subsequent eastbound trip (when both directions of traffic shared the WB tube), I discovered that each LED “button”  actually consists of two LED arrays, with red lights pointing in one direction and white pointing the other–much like the double-sided reflectors on many freeways.

Additionally, standard green arrow/red x lane control lights have been installed in the tunnel ceiling every 500-1000 ft. or so.

On one return (eastbound) trip a week ago, the EB tube was open, and I noticed that its left-side tunnel lighting had all been removed. The EB tunnel has not yet had embedded LEDs or lane control lights installed. And as of yesterday, the EB tube’s ventilation exhaust grilles had been boarded up (also visible on the traffic cameras.

(https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp186tunnel/images/project-details/arrows.jpg)
(https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp186tunnel/images/project-details/two-way.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 05, 2020, 04:58:58 PM
But what gave me a brief start was a new setup of directional LEDs embedded in the pavement. At first, I thought my headlights were reflecting off of some broken glass or metallic debris and I bolted to attention. As I got closer, I realized that I was seeing white LEDs forming a large forward-pointing arrow in the direction of travel–two white arrows side-by-side since both lanes were open to westbound traffic. On a subsequent eastbound trip (when both directions of traffic shared the WB tube), I discovered that each LED “button”  actually consists of two LED arrays, with red lights pointing in one direction and white pointing the other–much like the double-sided reflectors on many freeways.

I have seen a similar setup in use on I-895 through the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel when one tube has been running in two-way operation  (MDTA's contractor is replacing the bridge over the railroad yard north of the north portal as well as some pretty significant work in the tubes, including a partial tunnel deck replacement, removal and replacement of many of the tiles in both tubes, repairs to the firefighting water supply system and rehabilitation of the stonework along the retaining walls at both portals).  More on the project in the I-895 thread here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=13902.0).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 11, 2020, 02:04:50 PM
I’m still driving between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh weekly, and on my most recent eastbound trip, I noticed that the Turnpike’s two Steak n Shake locations at service plazas (South Midway, Highspire) have been replaced with Roy Rogers. The PTC’s website has not yet been updated to reflect the change, although the ground signage has.

If I’m not mistaken, now every Pennsylvania Turnpike service plaza has either a Roy Rogers or a Burger King as the burger-and-fries anchor of its foodservice operation–except North Midway, which for whatever reason has only a Subway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on August 11, 2020, 05:29:59 PM
I’m still driving between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh weekly, and on my most recent eastbound trip, I noticed that the Turnpike’s two Steak n Shake locations at service plazas (South Midway, Highspire) have been replaced with Roy Rogers. The PTC’s website has not yet been updated to reflect the change, although the ground signage has.

If I’m not mistaken, now every Pennsylvania Turnpike service plaza has either a Roy Rogers or a Burger King as the burger-and-fries anchor of its foodservice operation–except North Midway, which for whatever reason has only a Subway.
When were you last on the Turnpike? 

I've stopped at the Highspire plaza last month while coming back from a Harrisburg trip and noticed that the Steak n Shake was still there & open.  Such must've been a very recent change.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 11, 2020, 05:59:12 PM
When were you last on the Turnpike? 

I've stopped at the Highspire plaza last month while coming back from a Harrisburg trip and noticed that the Steak n Shake was still there & open.  Such must've been a very recent change.

Literally, yesterday.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on August 11, 2020, 07:34:25 PM
This was news to me that there was even Steak n Shake's on the Turnpike to begin with.

Sadly, all the locations here in Pgh are 'Temporarily Closed', but have been in that state for awhile (before C19).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 11, 2020, 08:49:54 PM
^ Don’t worry: You weren’t missing anything, in my opinion.

Actually, I remember reading some comments about the supposed “decline of Steak ’n Shake”  on one of the threads on AARoads (perhaps it was “Roadside chains with at least one foot in the grave” ), and I debated seeking out that thread and posting the closure news there.

I’ve never had much of a relationship with Steak ’n Shake outside of some generally positive memories of a few visits during trips through in the Midwest in the early 2000s. During the year I lived in Tampa, I had a few S’nS locations nearby and stopped in from time to time. At best, the visits to those Tampa locations were “just OK” , and more often than not, the orders took forever to be filled, the fries were cold and stale, I was charged incorrectly, or there was some other problem. The rather megalomaniacal “by Biglari”  signature on the Florida Steak ’n Shake signs wasn’t lost on me, and when I did searches online for “steak ’n shake sucks now” , I found post after post (especially from old-time Midwesterners) claiming that Sardar Biglari, who bought the chain in 2008, was running the venerable brand into the ground–Eddie Lampert style–through “value extraction” : cost cutting, loose franchising, and other operational changes.

Along those lines, the PA Turnpike Steak ’n Shakes were no more than a pale imitation of the authentic, original restaurants, with a stripped down menu (none of the diner-like fare–and obviously not served on china), indifferent employees, and lax standards. Lots of “we’re out of that” .
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on August 11, 2020, 09:02:17 PM
Looks like our tradition of getting shakes from the Steak n Shake at South Midway on the way home from western PA is over...but then again, it's not surprising to see it go. We got food from another location once, and that was enough.

If I’m not mistaken, now every Pennsylvania Turnpike service plaza has either a Roy Rogers or a Burger King as the burger-and-fries anchor of its foodservice operation–except North Midway, which for whatever reason has only a Subway.

Easy fix for that: Re-open the tunnel between North and South Midway.  :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 12, 2020, 11:19:35 AM
Looks like our tradition of getting shakes from the Steak n Shake at South Midway on the way home from western PA is over...but then again, it's not surprising to see it go. We got food from another location once, and that was enough.

If I’m not mistaken, now every Pennsylvania Turnpike service plaza has either a Roy Rogers or a Burger King as the burger-and-fries anchor of its foodservice operation–except North Midway, which for whatever reason has only a Subway.

Easy fix for that: Re-open the tunnel between North and South Midway.  :-D

Same here.  Will definitely miss that operation.  It was always busy when I stopped.  Roy Rogers is blah in comparison IMO.  It's a shame HMS Host doesn't have some more variety like they do in Ohio.  For some reason, PA/NJ are the same operations across their service plazas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 12, 2020, 02:08:52 PM
If I’m not mistaken, now every Pennsylvania Turnpike service plaza has either a Roy Rogers or a Burger King as the burger-and-fries anchor of its foodservice operation–except North Midway, which for whatever reason has only a Subway.
Easy fix for that: Re-open the tunnel between North and South Midway.  :-D

You're going to make me dig out my pics of the tunnel, aren't you! OK, twist my arm…

In 2009, when I was working for PennDOT District 6, my son (Roadsguy) and I took a road trip around Pennsylvania. I arranged to have someone show it to us.

(https://i.imgur.com/7Wjpwvm.jpg)
The tunnel beneath the Turnpike mainline, looking toward Midway South. I included this pic for scale. Roadsguy was 11 years old at this time. (Today he's taller than me.) He was a roadgeek pretty much out of the womb. As you can see from the look on his face, on this day he was in heaven!


(https://i.imgur.com/4BvFa9x.jpeg)
Just the tunnel. You can see what its condition was in 2009. Not terrible, but it's very narrow. Judging from my height (5'9") in the previous pic, the tunnel looks like it's six feet wide and eight feet high. Utility conduits have been strung along the ceiling. The light fixtures are original.


(https://i.imgur.com/FFYe4TM.jpg)
The southern end of the tunnel, under Midway South (the eastbound side). Definitely not handicapped-accessible. (Looks like UPS delivers in the tunnel. Who knew?  :-D)


(https://i.imgur.com/PW6votj.jpg)
This is the original stairway at the southern end, providing access up to the Midway South building. It was still in use by Turnpike and concession employees in 2009. I don't know if it was torn out during the recent renovation.


(https://i.imgur.com/DHrVfZ5.jpg)
The northern end of the tunnel, under Midway North (the westbound side). As you can see, the orginal stairway was removed and replaced by modified access in a different configuration. One can see the wall scar of the original stairway.


(https://i.imgur.com/gnEKBFX.jpg)
A diffent view of the southern end. Behind the door is the bottom of a newer stairway which provides access to the tunnel from the Midway North building.


(https://i.imgur.com/PT9NZ3v.jpg)
A closer look at the modification. The white PCV pipes look like sewer connections. I don't know about the others.


(https://i.imgur.com/c0TzdPb.jpg)
For comparison, here's Roadsguy with me two years ago at the PA Turnpike/I-95 road meet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on August 12, 2020, 08:53:16 PM
If I’m not mistaken, now every Pennsylvania Turnpike service plaza has either a Roy Rogers or a Burger King as the burger-and-fries anchor of its foodservice operation–except North Midway, which for whatever reason has only a Subway.
Easy fix for that: Re-open the tunnel between North and South Midway.  :-D

You're going to make me dig out my pics of the tunnel, aren't you! OK, twist my arm…

In 2009, when I was working for PennDOT District 6, my son (Roadsguy) and I took a road trip around Pennsylvania. I arranged to have someone show it to us.

(https://i.imgur.com/7Wjpwvm.jpg)
The tunnel beneath the Turnpike mainline, looking toward Midway South. I included this pic for scale. Roadsguy was 11 years old at this time. (Today he's taller than me.) He was a roadgeek pretty much out of the womb. As you can see from the look on his face, on this day he was in heaven!


(https://i.imgur.com/4BvFa9x.jpeg)
Just the tunnel. You can see what its condition was in 2009. Not terrible, but it's very narrow. Judging from my height (5'9") in the previous pic, the tunnel looks like it's six feet wide and eight feet high. Utility conduits have been strung along the ceiling. The light fixtures are original.


(https://i.imgur.com/FFYe4TM.jpg)
The southern end of the tunnel, under Midway South (the eastbound side). Definitely not handicapped-accessible. (Looks like UPS delivers in the tunnel. Who knew?  :-D)


(https://i.imgur.com/PW6votj.jpg)
This is the original stairway at the southern end, providing access up to the Midway South building. It was still in use by Turnpike and concession employees in 2009. I don't know if it was torn out during the recent renovation.


(https://i.imgur.com/DHrVfZ5.jpg)
The northern end of the tunnel, under Midway North (the westbound side). As you can see, the orginal stairway was removed and replaced by modified access in a different configuration. One can see the wall scar of the original stairway.


(https://i.imgur.com/gnEKBFX.jpg)
A diffent view of the southern end. Behind the door is the bottom of a newer stairway which provides access to the tunnel from the Midway North building.


(https://i.imgur.com/PT9NZ3v.jpg)
A closer look at the modification. The white PCV pipes look like sewer connections. I don't know about the others.


(https://i.imgur.com/c0TzdPb.jpg)
For comparison, here's Roadsguy with me two years ago at the PA Turnpike/I-95 road meet.

Looks like a great father-son road trip! Nice to see the tunnel still serves a purpose, even if not for the general public. Wonder what will happen to it once this part of the Turnpike is reconstructed...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 12, 2020, 11:10:47 PM
Wonder what will happen to it once this part of the Turnpike is reconstructed...

That comment got me wondering: Do we know for certain that the Turnpike through Midway was not reconstructed already? I recall that some 1940-vintage segments were completely reconstructed beginning in the late ”˜90s, and though the early projects were full-depth reconstructions, the resulting road was still four lanes–albeit with a more robust base, better drainage, and other structural improvements. I assume that it was some point later that the PTC decided to include a six-lane widening in its reconstruction projects. The underpass at the Bedford Interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/gM9HAjpF6zsraufb8) is clearly original 1940 equipment, as is this one  (https://goo.gl/maps/beUZLGiBySqKQ8tS9)east of Midway over Sunny Side Road, so I assume the 2.5 miles in between was not reconstructed.

Regardless–considering the six lane widenings that have been taking place virtually systemwide, I was a little surprised when North Midway was demolished and rebuilt a few years ago that its site wasn’t refigured somewhat to allow more room for an eventual widening of the Turnpike between the two plaza buildings. By a quick measurement estimation on Google Earth, the two plazas’ parking areas are separated by just 125 feet, curb-to-curb. That’s just enough room for the six-lane Turnpike’s 120-foot cross section, assuming that a retaining wall replaces the grass embankment in front of South Midway and the plazas’ ramps are reconfigured to accommodate the increased width.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 12, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
^ Don’t worry: You weren’t missing anything, in my opinion.

Actually, I remember reading some comments about the supposed “decline of Steak ’n Shake”  on one of the threads on AARoads (perhaps it was “Roadside chains with at least one foot in the grave” ), and I debated seeking out that thread and posting the closure news there.

I’ve never had much of a relationship with Steak ’n Shake outside of some generally positive memories of a few visits during trips through in the Midwest in the early 2000s. During the year I lived in Tampa, I had a few S’nS locations nearby and stopped in from time to time. At best, the visits to those Tampa locations were “just OK” , and more often than not, the orders took forever to be filled, the fries were cold and stale, I was charged incorrectly, or there was some other problem. The rather megalomaniacal “by Biglari”  signature on the Florida Steak ’n Shake signs wasn’t lost on me, and when I did searches online for “steak ’n shake sucks now” , I found post after post (especially from old-time Midwesterners) claiming that Sardar Biglari, who bought the chain in 2008, was running the venerable brand into the ground–Eddie Lampert style–through “value extraction” : cost cutting, loose franchising, and other operational changes.

Along those lines, the PA Turnpike Steak ’n Shakes were no more than a pale imitation of the authentic, original restaurants, with a stripped down menu (none of the diner-like fare–and obviously not served on china), indifferent employees, and lax standards. Lots of “we’re out of that” .

The decline of Steak 'N' Shake is not just a Turnpike/Pennsylvania thing. The first sign that they were declining was about 10 years ago, when they reduced their soup options to just vegetable. They used to have some great chicken gumbo, so I was annoyed when they got rid of it.

A few years later, getting seated in less than 10 minutes was a tall order, as was getting my food less than 10 minutes after the cooks placed it in the window for the waiters.

Then the quality of the shakes declined. Poorly-mixed shakes became more common, and so did chunks of ice in the shakes.

Many of the restaurants themselves became dirtier. One location near where my parents live seems to have a perpetual layer of residue on the floor and the bar, and the tables aren't cleaned well. Look up that specific location on Yelp, and you'll see a bunch of one-star reviews.

If I had to make a guess, I'd guess that Steak 'N' Shake was purchased about 10 years ago by a private equity firm or some other company that owns a bunch of different restaurants.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 13, 2020, 12:13:23 AM
The decline of Steak 'N' Shake is not just a Turnpike/Pennsylvania thing....
If I had to make a guess, I'd guess that Steak 'N' Shake was purchased about 10 years ago by a private equity firm or some other company that owns a bunch of different restaurants.

Yes:

...when I did searches online for “steak ’n shake sucks now” , I found post after post (especially from old-time Midwesterners) claiming that Sardar Biglari, who bought the chain in 2008, was running the venerable brand into the ground–Eddie Lampert style–through “value extraction” : cost cutting, loose franchising, and other operational changes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 13, 2020, 03:05:15 PM
Wonder what will happen to it once this part of the Turnpike is reconstructed...

That comment got me wondering: Do we know for certain that the Turnpike through Midway was not reconstructed already? I recall that some 1940-vintage segments were completely reconstructed beginning in the late ”˜90s, and though the early projects were full-depth reconstructions, the resulting road was still four lanes–albeit with a more robust base, better drainage, and other structural improvements. I assume that it was some point later that the PTC decided to include a six-lane widening in its reconstruction projects. The underpass at the Bedford Interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/gM9HAjpF6zsraufb8) is clearly original 1940 equipment, as is this one  (https://goo.gl/maps/beUZLGiBySqKQ8tS9)east of Midway over Sunny Side Road, so I assume the 2.5 miles in between was not reconstructed.

Regardless–considering the six lane widenings that have been taking place virtually systemwide, I was a little surprised when North Midway was demolished and rebuilt a few years ago that its site wasn’t refigured somewhat to allow more room for an eventual widening of the Turnpike between the two plaza buildings. By a quick measurement estimation on Google Earth, the two plazas’ parking areas are separated by just 125 feet, curb-to-curb. That’s just enough room for the six-lane Turnpike’s 120-foot cross section, assuming that a retaining wall replaces the grass embankment in front of South Midway and the plazas’ ramps are reconfigured to accommodate the increased width.

I'm almost totally positive that this stretch hasn't had a full-on reconstruction yet.  They did stretches in Westmoreland County & Somerset County in the late 90's or so that are just 4 lanes - before they decided it was worth it to just 6-lane what they reconstruct going forward.  I don't know that they've done any full-reconstruction in Bedford County yet. 

Also in this general area, another pinch point is a fairly new (at least it still seems fairly new) 4-lane overpass over US-30 - where they dualized US-30 between Bedford and Everett ( https://goo.gl/maps/tk19ddK8k6LnoQAX6 ) - Not being an engineer, I don't know if that structure can be modified for a 6 lane Turnpike - if it can't, I don't see it getting replaced with an even newer structure for many years.  (Also, if you look at the PTC websites future projects, the one around Everett stops just east of here, shortly after the Turnpike crosses the Juniata).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on August 13, 2020, 03:54:28 PM
Wonder what will happen to it once this part of the Turnpike is reconstructed...

That comment got me wondering: Do we know for certain that the Turnpike through Midway was not reconstructed already? I recall that some 1940-vintage segments were completely reconstructed beginning in the late ”˜90s, and though the early projects were full-depth reconstructions, the resulting road was still four lanes–albeit with a more robust base, better drainage, and other structural improvements. I assume that it was some point later that the PTC decided to include a six-lane widening in its reconstruction projects. The underpass at the Bedford Interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/gM9HAjpF6zsraufb8) is clearly original 1940 equipment, as is this one  (https://goo.gl/maps/beUZLGiBySqKQ8tS9)east of Midway over Sunny Side Road, so I assume the 2.5 miles in between was not reconstructed.

Regardless–considering the six lane widenings that have been taking place virtually systemwide, I was a little surprised when North Midway was demolished and rebuilt a few years ago that its site wasn’t refigured somewhat to allow more room for an eventual widening of the Turnpike between the two plaza buildings. By a quick measurement estimation on Google Earth, the two plazas’ parking areas are separated by just 125 feet, curb-to-curb. That’s just enough room for the six-lane Turnpike’s 120-foot cross section, assuming that a retaining wall replaces the grass embankment in front of South Midway and the plazas’ ramps are reconfigured to accommodate the increased width.

I'm almost totally positive that this stretch hasn't had a full-on reconstruction yet.  They did stretches in Westmoreland County & Somerset County in the late 90's or so that are just 4 lanes - before they decided it was worth it to just 6-lane what they reconstruct going forward.  I don't know that they've done any full-reconstruction in Bedford County yet. 

Also in this general area, another pinch point is a fairly new (at least it still seems fairly new) 4-lane overpass over US-30 - where they dualized US-30 between Bedford and Everett ( https://goo.gl/maps/tk19ddK8k6LnoQAX6 ) - Not being an engineer, I don't know if that structure can be modified for a 6 lane Turnpike - if it can't, I don't see it getting replaced with an even newer structure for many years.  (Also, if you look at the PTC websites future projects, the one around Everett stops just east of here, shortly after the Turnpike crosses the Juniata).

Here's a map of the PA Turnpike's reconstruction projects, current as of January 2020. The section at the Midway plazas has yet to be reconstructed, nor is anything planned until just east of there, as mentioned.

https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/travel/Total_Recon_2019.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 17, 2020, 03:05:25 PM
Another week; another Philadelphia to Pittsburgh round trip; another Turnpike update:

The Tuscarora Mountain Tunnel’s eastbound tube, which had been closed as of August 10th, was reopened when I drove through last night. The tunnel's concrete ceiling (separating the upper exhaust duct from the travel lanes below) has been removed, leaving an open arched cross section, much like the revamped tunnels in Pittsburgh.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50238083212_942451f5d7_b.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on August 17, 2020, 07:34:26 PM
Another week; another Philadelphia to Pittsburgh round trip; another Turnpike update:

The Tuscarora Mountain Tunnel’s eastbound tube, which had been closed as of August 10th, was reopened when I drove through last night. The tunnel's concrete ceiling (separating the upper exhaust duct from the travel lanes below) has been removed, leaving an open arched cross section, much like the revamped tunnels in Pittsburgh.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50238083212_942451f5d7_b.jpg)

Definitely makes passing through the tunnel feel just a little less claustrophobic...


The PTC has posted its FY 2021 Capital Plan. Spending is cut back for the next couple years due to effects from the pandemic. Looks like the next reconstruction is MP 102-109, due to begin late this year or early next year.
https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/FY2021_Capital_Plan.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on August 17, 2020, 09:48:03 PM
Another week; another Philadelphia to Pittsburgh round trip; another Turnpike update:

The Tuscarora Mountain Tunnel’s eastbound tube, which had been closed as of August 10th, was reopened when I drove through last night. The tunnel's concrete ceiling (separating the upper exhaust duct from the travel lanes below) has been removed, leaving an open arched cross section, much like the revamped tunnels in Pittsburgh.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50238083212_942451f5d7_b.jpg)

That longitudinal space above the ceiling (in tunnels that have one) is called a ventilation plenum.

Two questions:

1. Are there fans to replace the plenum's ventilation function (as in the southbound Lehigh Tunnel)?

2. In the I-279 tunnel in Pittsburgh, there are radio repeater antenna wires strung along the plenum. (When I worked for PennDOT I once stood in the plenum there and saw them up close.) Could you tell if the overhead wires visible in your photograph are similar radio repeaters or did they just look like utility wires?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 17, 2020, 10:46:53 PM
Wonder what will happen to it once this part of the Turnpike is reconstructed...

That comment got me wondering: Do we know for certain that the Turnpike through Midway was not reconstructed already? I recall that some 1940-vintage segments were completely reconstructed beginning in the late ”˜90s, and though the early projects were full-depth reconstructions, the resulting road was still four lanes–albeit with a more robust base, better drainage, and other structural improvements. I assume that it was some point later that the PTC decided to include a six-lane widening in its reconstruction projects. The underpass at the Bedford Interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/gM9HAjpF6zsraufb8) is clearly original 1940 equipment, as is this one  (https://goo.gl/maps/beUZLGiBySqKQ8tS9)east of Midway over Sunny Side Road, so I assume the 2.5 miles in between was not reconstructed.

Regardless–considering the six lane widenings that have been taking place virtually systemwide, I was a little surprised when North Midway was demolished and rebuilt a few years ago that its site wasn’t refigured somewhat to allow more room for an eventual widening of the Turnpike between the two plaza buildings. By a quick measurement estimation on Google Earth, the two plazas’ parking areas are separated by just 125 feet, curb-to-curb. That’s just enough room for the six-lane Turnpike’s 120-foot cross section, assuming that a retaining wall replaces the grass embankment in front of South Midway and the plazas’ ramps are reconfigured to accommodate the increased width.

I'm almost totally positive that this stretch hasn't had a full-on reconstruction yet.  They did stretches in Westmoreland County & Somerset County in the late 90's or so that are just 4 lanes - before they decided it was worth it to just 6-lane what they reconstruct going forward.  I don't know that they've done any full-reconstruction in Bedford County yet. 

Also in this general area, another pinch point is a fairly new (at least it still seems fairly new) 4-lane overpass over US-30 - where they dualized US-30 between Bedford and Everett ( https://goo.gl/maps/tk19ddK8k6LnoQAX6 ) - Not being an engineer, I don't know if that structure can be modified for a 6 lane Turnpike - if it can't, I don't see it getting replaced with an even newer structure for many years.  (Also, if you look at the PTC websites future projects, the one around Everett stops just east of here, shortly after the Turnpike crosses the Juniata).

Here's a map of the PA Turnpike's reconstruction projects, current as of January 2020. The section at the Midway plazas has yet to be reconstructed, nor is anything planned until just east of there, as mentioned.

https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/travel/Total_Recon_2019.pdf

Apparently, that short four-lane segment near MM 39 was reconstructed in the early 2000s, before the Turnpike Commission decided to six-lane everything. That explains the gap. I hope they get around to correcting that soon, because everything north of Pittsburgh except for two miles is six lanes now.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: briantroutman on August 18, 2020, 03:36:51 PM
That longitudinal space above the ceiling (in tunnels that have one) is called a ventilation plenum.

Thanks; I was grasping at straws for proper terminology.

1. Are there fans to replace the plenum's ventilation function (as in the southbound Lehigh Tunnel)?

When I saw that the ceiling had been removed, I immediately began looking for those large, jet engine-looking fans (as in SB Lehigh) but did not see any.

Then again, having been spending quite a lot of time in Pittsburgh over the last month, I’ve been wondering about the ventilation setup at the “de-ceilinged”  Fort Pitt and Squirrel Hill Tunnels, too. I didn’t see any of those large fans in the Pittsburgh tunnels either. Are the existing portal mounted fans being used to pull air out of the plenum-less tunnels? Or because of vehicles cleaner exhaust and the larger cross section of the revised tunnel, is traffic movement alone enough to keep the tunnel air circulating?

For what it’s worth: The EB Tuscarora Mountain Tunnel’s ventilation grilles are currently boarded up with plywood.

2. Could you tell if the overhead wires visible in your photograph are similar radio repeaters or did they just look like utility wires?

They looked like utility wires to me, but of course, I wouldn’t necessarily be able to tell the difference.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on August 19, 2020, 11:27:41 AM
Also in this general area, another pinch point is a fairly new (at least it still seems fairly new) 4-lane overpass over US-30 - where they dualized US-30 between Bedford and Everett ( https://goo.gl/maps/tk19ddK8k6LnoQAX6 ) - Not being an engineer, I don't know if that structure can be modified for a 6 lane Turnpike - if it can't, I don't see it getting replaced with an even newer structure for many years.  (Also, if you look at the PTC websites future projects, the one around Everett stops just east of here, shortly after the Turnpike crosses the Juniata).

I don't know why they wouldn't be able to extend the abutments and center pier, drop in a couple new beams and tie in the deck. If push came to shove, the bridge appears to have full-width shoulders they could restripe for a third lane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on August 19, 2020, 11:47:45 AM
Even the modern underpasses could be restriped to accomodate six lanes with no problem. You may not have full 12' shoulders but it'll be fine. The PTC does this further east around Philly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on August 19, 2020, 08:19:33 PM
I believe Interstate highways are required to have continuous shoulders. In any case it would be unsafe not to have them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on August 19, 2020, 11:12:35 PM
I believe Interstate highways are required to have continuous shoulders. In any case it would be unsafe not to have them.

I think the continuous-shoulder requirement applies to the whole system except tunnels.  Bridges over a certain length used to be excepted too, but this is no longer true.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 19, 2020, 11:18:08 PM
Some people are too quick to say, hey, there's 1 or 2 exceptions that exist already, so let's just add another 40 exceptions to the list.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on August 20, 2020, 12:42:41 AM
I believe Interstate highways are required to have continuous shoulders. In any case it would be unsafe not to have them.

I think the continuous-shoulder requirement applies to the whole system except tunnels.  Bridges over a certain length used to be excepted too, but this is no longer true.
I thought they still are excepted, but more agencies aren't taking advantage.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on August 20, 2020, 10:46:08 AM
I believe Interstate highways are required to have continuous shoulders. In any case it would be unsafe not to have them.

I think the continuous-shoulder requirement applies to the whole system except tunnels.  Bridges over a certain length used to be excepted too, but this is no longer true.
I thought they still are excepted, but more agencies aren't taking advantage.

Even if full-width shoulders are technically required now, I suspect an agency could get a design exception based on the cost of reconstructing the bridge. There are plenty of bridges along the I-376 extension that lack full shoulders and haven't been addressed even though PennDOT was required to make other upgrades as part of Interstate designation. In recent years, PennDOT also converted shoulders to travel lanes on I-376's bridge at Carnegie, and when the I-70/US 19 interchange at Washington, PA was converted from a cloverleaf to a DDI, they changed the existing weave lane to a through lane without having full shoulders.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on August 20, 2020, 11:46:55 AM
I thought they still are excepted, but more agencies aren't taking advantage.

This inspired me to do a little checking.

AIUI, current standards do require provision of shoulders on bridges, but if they are 200 ft or longer, shoulder width on both sides can be reduced to 4 ft.  Older bridges that do not meet this standard are grandfathered in as long as shoulders are at least 3.5 ft wide with 12 ft lanes.  Tunnels are similar with the added requirement that a raised pedestrian walkway be provided for emergency evacuation that is at least 4 ft wide.

I'm not sure how common it was to build bridges completely without shoulders during the period of peak Interstate construction.  I'm aware of a few bridges (such as I-80 over the Meander Creek Reservoir in Mahoning County, Ohio) that didn't have any shoulders until they were replaced after 2000, at which point the full cross-section width was carried over even though they were well over the 200 ft length at which relaxed standards apply.  Near to me, the I-235 Arkansas River bridges, built circa 1961 as chargeable Interstate to standards then prevailing (no grandfathering of obsolescent features), had shoulders of about 2 ft on both sides until they were completely replaced after 2010, at which point the overground cross-section of 4 ft left shoulder, two 12 ft lanes, and 10 ft right shoulder was carried over onto the deck.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on August 20, 2020, 01:56:23 PM
I was doing some checking on the bridges that were built to contemporary four-lane standards near Bedford. While the crossings over water or roadways can be widened with generally no issue, the underpasses may be an issue. They have four 12' lanes, one 12' shoulder, and a 4' shoulder. Fitting three 12' lanes underneath them gives only 1.5' shoulders. You could, I guess, have three 11' lanes with 3.5' shoulders but that's below the acceptable standards.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on August 20, 2020, 08:01:08 PM
I thought they still are excepted, but more agencies aren't taking advantage.

This inspired me to do a little checking.

AIUI, current standards do require provision of shoulders on bridges, but if they are 200 ft or longer, shoulder width on both sides can be reduced to 4 ft.  Older bridges that do not meet this standard are grandfathered in as long as shoulders are at least 3.5 ft wide with 12 ft lanes.  Tunnels are similar with the added requirement that a raised pedestrian walkway be provided for emergency evacuation that is at least 4 ft wide.

I'm not sure how common it was to build bridges completely without shoulders during the period of peak Interstate construction.  I'm aware of a few bridges (such as I-80 over the Meander Creek Reservoir in Mahoning County, Ohio) that didn't have any shoulders until they were replaced after 2000, at which point the full cross-section width was carried over even though they were well over the 200 ft length at which relaxed standards apply.  Near to me, the I-235 Arkansas River bridges, built circa 1961 as chargeable Interstate to standards then prevailing (no grandfathering of obsolescent features), had shoulders of about 2 ft on both sides until they were completely replaced after 2010, at which point the overground cross-section of 4 ft left shoulder, two 12 ft lanes, and 10 ft right shoulder was carried over onto the deck.
Yes, the 4' width is what I was referring to. Those aren't shoulders, those are safety margins.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on August 26, 2020, 03:43:15 PM
A Rendell era idea resurfaces:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/08/26/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Reason-Foundation-privatization-PennDOT-Gov-Tom-Wolf/stories/202008250138

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 27, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
One unclear effect of AET has been whether E-ZPass slip ramps and express lanes are now open to all customers.  This page seems to indicate that there are no longer "E-ZPass Only" exits or lanes.

https://www.paturnpike.com/rampup/on_our_roadway.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on August 27, 2020, 12:13:12 PM
A Rendell era idea resurfaces:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/08/26/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Reason-Foundation-privatization-PennDOT-Gov-Tom-Wolf/stories/202008250138

Eh, it's the Reason Foundation. They're an arch-fiscal conservative think tank that thinks the government should not have a hand in anything. They released one about the NJTA today as well (https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/nj-could-make-17b-by-leasing-turnpike-parkway-report-suggests.html).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2020, 12:29:31 PM
A Rendell era idea resurfaces:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/08/26/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Reason-Foundation-privatization-PennDOT-Gov-Tom-Wolf/stories/202008250138

Eh, it's the Reason Foundation. They're an arch-fiscal conservative think tank that thinks the government should not have a hand in anything. They released one about the NJTA today as well (https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/nj-could-make-17b-by-leasing-turnpike-parkway-report-suggests.html).

The actual report referenced the NJ Turnpike, rather than the NJ Turnpike Authority. It was a bit off in saying most of the Turnpike is I-95. So consider this as to how accurate the report was, or the knowledge the author has about various toll rosd systems in the country.

And the "study" looked at 9 toll agencies in total, using Covid-19 as a reason for leasing the roadways. I doubt such a comprehensive study could have been done in only 5 months or so when the economy was truly affected.

It also ties in leasing the toll roads in order to help the states with their unfunded pension liabilities. Yet it also criticized the PANYNJ for spending money on a project not in their jurisdiction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on August 27, 2020, 03:15:39 PM
A Rendell era idea resurfaces:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/08/26/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Reason-Foundation-privatization-PennDOT-Gov-Tom-Wolf/stories/202008250138

Eh, it's the Reason Foundation. They're an arch-fiscal conservative think tank that thinks the government should not have a hand in anything. They released one about the NJTA today as well (https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/nj-could-make-17b-by-leasing-turnpike-parkway-report-suggests.html).

The actual report referenced the NJ Turnpike, rather than the NJ Turnpike Authority. It was a bit off in saying most of the Turnpike is I-95. So consider this as to how accurate the report was, or the knowledge the author has about various toll rosd systems in the country.

It also refers to PTC as the Pennsylvania Turnpike Authority. It's a slipshod piece of work designed basically as clickbait.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on August 27, 2020, 04:15:42 PM
A Rendell era idea resurfaces:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/08/26/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Reason-Foundation-privatization-PennDOT-Gov-Tom-Wolf/stories/202008250138

Eh, it's the Reason Foundation. They're an arch-fiscal conservative think tank that thinks the government should not have a hand in anything. They released one about the NJTA today as well (https://www.nj.com/news/2020/08/nj-could-make-17b-by-leasing-turnpike-parkway-report-suggests.html).

The actual report referenced the NJ Turnpike, rather than the NJ Turnpike Authority. It was a bit off in saying most of the Turnpike is I-95. So consider this as to how accurate the report was, or the knowledge the author has about various toll rosd systems in the country.

It also refers to PTC as the Pennsylvania Turnpike Authority. It's a slipshod piece of work designed basically as clickbait.

If they can't even get the names correct, then what else did they get wrong? Still though, it's a topic worthy of discussion, even if I personally think that leasing the Turnpike will remain an idea.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on August 27, 2020, 06:17:07 PM
An idiotic idea.  Fun how much crossposting is happening with this Reason garbage.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on August 30, 2020, 08:37:49 AM
I was on the Mon-Fayette Expressway yesterday. PTC hasn't changed the signage to remove references to cash, but they have have removed the overhead signage at mainline and ramp toll plazas that designated which lane took which type of payment. The payment confirmation signals in each toll lane were gone, and I'm not 100% certain but I think the gates and automated payment machines were also removed.

At the Fairchance mainline plaza, they still have the center (of three) lanes in each direction blocked, with a VMS parked in it announcing pay-by-plate and to keep moving. I was only on the WV-to-Uniontown segment, so I didn't get a chance to see what they did at the other plazas that have high speed lanes with cash payment was handled in a side plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 30, 2020, 02:50:51 PM
I was on the Mon-Fayette Expressway yesterday. PTC hasn't changed the signage to remove references to cash, but they have have removed the overhead signage about each lane at mainline and ramp toll plazas that designated which lane took which type of payment. The payment confirmation signals in each toll lane were gone, and I'm not 100% certain but I think the gates and automated payment machines were also removed.

At the Fairchance mainline plaza, they still have the center (of three) lanes in each direction blocked, with a VMS parked in it announcing pay-by-plate and to keep moving. I was only on the WV-to-Uniontown segment, so I didn't get a chance to see what they did at the other plazas that have high speed lanes with cash payment was handled in a side plaza.

All the mainline Turnpike plazas have the same thing with VMS in one toll lane.  The plazas that had the non-digital signage now almost all read E-ZPass Only over every lane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 01, 2020, 12:09:26 AM
CDL Life:  Trucking company says that $27,000 in owed tolls was a 'misunderstanding' not a 'ripoff' (https://cdllife.com/2020/trucking-company-says-that-27000-in-owed-tolls-was-a-misunderstanding-not-a-ripoff/)

Quote
A Pennsylvania trucking company is under fire for $27,000 worth of unpaid tolls, officials say.

Quote
Forrsmith Logistics Services in Yeadon owned by 41-year-old Darnell Smith has been accused of 'ripping off' the Pennsylvania Turnpike between May 2012 and July of this year, reported CBS Philly.

Quote
According to prosecutors, trucks registered to Forrsmith Logistics Services were caught on camera rolling through the Valley Forge Interchange on the PA Turnpike without an E-Z Pass hundreds of times in the last eight years — $27,000 worth of trips.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on September 17, 2020, 07:58:41 AM
I posted this in traffic control, but notice this newer BGS at the Monroeville exit shows an exit speed that differs from the posted exit speed just after the BGS.

I wonder why the turnpike decided to go with a ground mounted BGS instead of a new overhead sign? The sign for “Ohio and West”  was not replaced.

(https://i.imgur.com/hP1o9cN.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 17, 2020, 08:35:33 AM
I posted this in traffic control, but notice this newer BGS at the Monroeville exit shows an exit speed that differs from the posted exit speed just after the BGS.

I wonder why the turnpike decided to go with a ground mounted BGS instead of a new overhead sign? The sign for “Ohio and West”  was not replaced.

(https://i.imgur.com/hP1o9cN.jpg)

Think they forgot to change the other signage.  The PTC seems to be lowering ramp speeds where there are sharp curves.  Case in point, they lowered the speed on the EB ramp to Harrisburg West (I-83) to 15 MPH and put flashing beacons inside the same BGS you posted.

Of course, this brings up a personal gripe that the PTC can't or won't design ramps with an advisory speed over 30 MPH (except for the Mid-County flyover).  The NYS Thruway posts a lot of their off-ramps at 45 MPH.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on September 21, 2020, 09:35:02 AM
Check out the mileage numerals on these new attraction signs at the Donegal interchange on the PA Turnpike. Yikes.

https://imgur.com/a/cikE26n (https://imgur.com/a/cikE26n)

I also posted this in traffic control (good, bad, ugly thread).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on September 21, 2020, 09:39:13 AM
Check out the mileage numerals on these new attraction signs at the Donegal interchange on the PA Turnpike. Yikes.

https://imgur.com/a/cikE26n (https://imgur.com/a/cikE26n)

I also posted this in traffic control (good, bad, ugly thread).


Looks like a child in kindergarden drew them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 21, 2020, 09:46:14 AM
Check out the mileage numerals on these new attraction signs at the Donegal interchange on the PA Turnpike. Yikes.

https://imgur.com/a/cikE26n (https://imgur.com/a/cikE26n)

I also posted this in traffic control (good, bad, ugly thread).

Looks like a child in kindergarden drew them.

When things got real on "Bring Your Child To Work" Day!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 21, 2020, 03:18:22 PM
I posted this in traffic control, but notice this newer BGS at the Monroeville exit shows an exit speed that differs from the posted exit speed just after the BGS.

I wonder why the turnpike decided to go with a ground mounted BGS instead of a new overhead sign? The sign for “Ohio and West”  was not replaced.

(https://i.imgur.com/hP1o9cN.jpg)

My best guess is the existing overhead gantry reached a point it needed to come down for safety reasons, and knowing that *someday* (when they find the money) they are widening the turnpike from Irwin to Monroeville, they're probably just going with this ground-mounted sign until they put in a new overhead structure (probably mono-tube) over the widened highway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on September 21, 2020, 06:34:08 PM
Beaver Valley Interchange (Exit 13) will be closed on weekdays for three weeks starting Sept. 21.
https://triblive.com/local/regional/beaver-valley-interchange-on-turnpike-to-close-for-3-weeks/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 15, 2020, 07:09:43 AM
Looks like they'll be doing major bridge beam placement this weekend for the new Turnpike bridge over US-19.  They'll have US-19 closed this entire weekend.

https://twitter.com/WPXITraffic/status/1316677733603315712
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on October 15, 2020, 11:26:30 AM
Looks like they'll be doing major bridge beam placement this weekend for the new Turnpike bridge over US-19.  They'll have US-19 closed this entire weekend.

I assume the idea is to scare as many people away as possible since you can't fit all of 19 on Warrendale Bayne, Brush Creek, Thorn Hill, and back. Because that's hardly 10.5 miles.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 15, 2020, 11:43:29 AM
Looks like they'll be doing major bridge beam placement this weekend for the new Turnpike bridge over US-19.  They'll have US-19 closed this entire weekend.

I assume the idea is to scare as many people away as possible since you can't fit all of 19 on Warrendale Bayne, Brush Creek, Thorn Hill, and back. Because that's hardly 10.5 miles.

What I don't understand is why the NB detour can't use the direct ramp from I-79 to US 19 North since it is north of the Turnpike bridge.  I get the SB detour since the ramp to I-79 is after the bridge.  The 228 corridor around 19 and 79 is normally a nightmare, so I would think they'd want to minimize the added traffic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 15, 2020, 06:31:20 PM
Looks like they'll be doing major bridge beam placement this weekend for the new Turnpike bridge over US-19.  They'll have US-19 closed this entire weekend.

I assume the idea is to scare as many people away as possible since you can't fit all of 19 on Warrendale Bayne, Brush Creek, Thorn Hill, and back. Because that's hardly 10.5 miles.

What I don't understand is why the NB detour can't use the direct ramp from I-79 to US 19 North since it is north of the Turnpike bridge.  I get the SB detour since the ramp to I-79 is after the bridge.  The 228 corridor around 19 and 79 is normally a nightmare, so I would think they'd want to minimize the added traffic.

Good point, unless they plan on closing that exit too for the weekend because they don't want the last second left lane insanity at that interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on November 29, 2020, 01:39:10 PM
The PTC is getting its Act 44 payments back on track. Revenue losses due to the pandemic are continuing:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/11/29/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-penndot-quarterly-payments-borrow-550-million/stories/202011290057
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on November 29, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
New debt to cover the payments on old dept?  Yeah, that's not even remotely sustainable.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on November 29, 2020, 09:32:09 PM
New debt to cover the payments on old dept?  Yeah, that's not even remotely sustainable.

Not at all. But, given the circumstances, they don't have any other choice at the moment.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on November 29, 2020, 09:35:17 PM
New debt to cover the payments on old dept?  Yeah, that's not even remotely sustainable.

Not at all. But, given the circumstances, they don't have any other choice at the moment.
Unfortunately I don't think this is unique to the pandemic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on November 29, 2020, 11:00:00 PM
New debt to cover the payments on old dept?  Yeah, that's not even remotely sustainable.

Not at all. But, given the circumstances, they don't have any other choice at the moment.
Unfortunately I don't think this is unique to the pandemic.

Indeed. The fact that nothing's been done to decrease the Act 44 payments sooner than 2022 has a lot to do with it. The pandemic has only served to exacerbate the situation. And now that PennDOT is having its own troubles, they couldn't afford to let the PTC put off its obligations any longer.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 30, 2020, 11:37:58 AM
Indeed. The fact that nothing's been done to decrease the Act 44 payments sooner than 2022 has a lot to do with it. The pandemic has only served to exacerbate the situation. And now that PennDOT is having its own troubles, they couldn't afford to let the PTC put off its obligations any longer.

Wonder if anyone has asked SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County to cut spending? I realize that is like leading the sacred cow to the slaughterhouse, but it should be considered.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SteveG1988 on November 30, 2020, 12:24:57 PM
Indeed. The fact that nothing's been done to decrease the Act 44 payments sooner than 2022 has a lot to do with it. The pandemic has only served to exacerbate the situation. And now that PennDOT is having its own troubles, they couldn't afford to let the PTC put off its obligations any longer.

Wonder if anyone has asked SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County to cut spending? I realize that is like leading the sacred cow to the slaughterhouse, but it would be considered.

Septa is in the middle of a fleet renewal, they have 1970s equipment still, the Silverliner IV. So...they need to replace them sooner than later to get more ADA compliance, along with their 1981 trolley fleet that can't be made ADA compliant
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on November 30, 2020, 03:29:05 PM
https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/11/29/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Warrendale-toll-booths-E-ZPass-travel-transporation/stories/202011290058

With the Turnpike going to AET now for good, and the 3 mile reconstruction between Cranberry and the Warrendale toll plaza going on, I was wondering about this....
It would be kind of dumb to adapt the new stretch into the current plaza with only 2 lanes (per direction) of EZ-Pass ORT and one lane for now useless toll booths, so this does seem a common-sense move.  Good for the PTC.
Unless there is some sort of brief transition period, it does mean that the current plaza that was designed to have 4 lanes of ORT (2 in each direction) EZ-Pass "Express" lanes since it was built as an early-action project for the "Cranberry Connector" (the direct connection between the Turnpike & I-79) in the very early '00's was never fully utilized, as they only ever allowed one lane of ORT in each direction  (which I always questioned, especially eastbound - after the 6-lane widening between the plaza and near PA-8).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on November 30, 2020, 03:35:54 PM
https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2020/11/29/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Warrendale-toll-booths-E-ZPass-travel-transporation/stories/202011290058

With the Turnpike going to AET now for good, and the 3 mile reconstruction between Cranberry and the Warrendale toll plaza going on, I was wondering about this....
It would be kind of dumb to adapt the new stretch into the current plaza with only 2 lanes (per direction) of EZ-Pass ORT and one lane for now useless toll booths, so this does seem a common-sense move.  Good for the PTC.
Unless there is some sort of brief transition period, it does mean that the current plaza that was designed to have 4 lanes of ORT (2 in each direction) EZ-Pass "Express" lanes since it was built as an early-action project for the "Cranberry Connector" (the direct connection between the Turnpike & I-79) in the very early '00's was never fully utilized, as they only ever allowed one lane of ORT in each direction  (which I always questioned, especially eastbound - after the 6-lane widening between the plaza and near PA-8).

They should do the same thing to the Neshaminy Falls Toll Plaza when they decide to expand the road to six lanes east of the US 1 interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 30, 2020, 10:21:34 PM
Septa is in the middle of a fleet renewal, they have 1970s equipment still, the Silverliner IV. So...they need to replace them sooner than later to get more ADA compliance, along with their 1981 trolley fleet that can't be made ADA compliant

So maybe SEPTA and the Port Authority should be taxing residents of their respective service areas instead of fleecing current and future Pennsylvania Turnpike patrons?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on December 01, 2020, 11:13:56 AM
Septa is in the middle of a fleet renewal, they have 1970s equipment still, the Silverliner IV. So...they need to replace them sooner than later to get more ADA compliance, along with their 1981 trolley fleet that can't be made ADA compliant

So maybe SEPTA and the Port Authority should be taxing residents of their respective service areas instead of fleecing current and future Pennsylvania Turnpike patrons?
(reading from a random textbook) this will be a regressive tax, as those who cannot afford it and living in a city and relying on public transportation would be affected most. Charging affluential long haul travelers is a much more equitable way to fund public transportation

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 01, 2020, 11:38:25 AM
Septa is in the middle of a fleet renewal, they have 1970s equipment still, the Silverliner IV. So...they need to replace them sooner than later to get more ADA compliance, along with their 1981 trolley fleet that can't be made ADA compliant

So maybe SEPTA and the Port Authority should be taxing residents of their respective service areas instead of fleecing current and future Pennsylvania Turnpike patrons?
(reading from a random textbook) this will be a regressive tax, as those who cannot afford it and living in a city and relying on public transportation would be affected most. Charging affluential long haul travelers is a much more equitable way to fund public transportation

I strongly disagree.  Much of the traffic on the Pennsylvania Turnpike should be truck traffic (though I think the Act 44/Act 89 toll rates have driven a fair amount of that traffic to "free" roads), and funding it using your redistribution method means that there are no incentives at all for SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County to control costs, as the money is "free."

Do you know what the demographics of patrons of SEPTA and the Port Authority area?  Especially in terms of per-capita or household incomes?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on December 01, 2020, 12:13:12 PM
Septa is in the middle of a fleet renewal, they have 1970s equipment still, the Silverliner IV. So...they need to replace them sooner than later to get more ADA compliance, along with their 1981 trolley fleet that can't be made ADA compliant

So maybe SEPTA and the Port Authority should be taxing residents of their respective service areas instead of fleecing current and future Pennsylvania Turnpike patrons?
(reading from a random textbook) this will be a regressive tax, as those who cannot afford it and living in a city and relying on public transportation would be affected most. Charging affluential long haul travelers is a much more equitable way to fund public transportation

I strongly disagree.  Much of the traffic on the Pennsylvania Turnpike should be truck traffic (though I think the Act 44/Act 89 toll rates have driven a fair amount of that traffic to "free" roads), and funding it using your redistribution method means that there are no incentives at all for SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County to control costs, as the money is "free."

Do you know what the demographics of patrons of SEPTA and the Port Authority area?  Especially in terms of per-capita or household incomes?
I am sorry, my [ sarcasm] tag didn't work.
Public transportation funding seems to be a very convoluted issue, which doesn't really belong to this thread.
And it is not even about cost control.  "free" money provide no incencitive to chase fares and build service which is actually used.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on December 01, 2020, 02:36:29 PM
The problem isn't cost control for public agencies in PA - there are entire systems that haven't been updated for decades and needed a complete overhaul to be federally compliant. The issue is the lack of a reliable funding source for these agencies. Act 44/Act 89, for piggybacking off of the Turnpike, were the first reliable funding sources for both systems. These need to be replaced with another reliable funding source as these are long-term projects that require multi-year funding mechanism. This is getting a bit off topic, I think.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on December 21, 2020, 06:19:00 PM
Reminder to everyone that Jan 3, 2021 is the 6% EZPass/45% AET increase.

I can’t believe the minimum toll is going to be $3.90 for non EZ Pass users now.  I’m 33 and I remember when Gettysburg Pike to Harrisburg West was 50 cents, and 65 cents to Harrisburg East.  Presumably that would be $3.90 and $4.40 now, respectively.  Heck back then, $3.45 got you to Valley Forge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 31, 2020, 09:28:01 AM
The debate over a bypass of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel continues:

https://www.dailyamerican.com/news/local/somerset/turnpike-plan-to-bypass-allegheny-mountain-tunnel-drawing-criticism-from-local-groups/article_7e6d139e-3685-11eb-bf8a-e3865f2d1362.html?fbclid=IwAR1mXUjDFWxRkXMxYLMr-S3_3tNHyp0y7AZds6h1Dj5G3zGAm3BsIenB0kk
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: billpa on January 03, 2021, 09:54:28 AM
We went on the "Antique car" ride at Hersheypark. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210103/16de0745f402f36db7f77d4436fef5ee.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210103/32b0e3303643ddc71633a8b19c68f3ad.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210103/0be0bd49ac6507d25404fa9756b3c964.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210103/39dc6a83d63ddd3dac6dea92551c5f5e.jpg)

Pixel 2

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on January 03, 2021, 10:36:39 AM
I love how the Great Valley exit sign is in FHWA Series when the real signs are in Clearview. :spin:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on January 03, 2021, 11:34:07 AM
"Breezewood" should be where the loading/unloading platform is as that's where everyone has to get on and off of the "Turnpike".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 03, 2021, 12:05:01 PM
"Breezewood" should be where the loading/unloading platform is as that's where everyone has to get on and off of the "Turnpike".

Everyone?  What about those just taking I-76?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: billpa on January 03, 2021, 12:16:49 PM
Here are a couple more...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210103/7d93d8df421ccedfa60bd7617753433d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210103/d105572648e6a1cfeeeb71e7ba0b2cc9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210103/484e4520ba0bc69f27ddf77e43d8a22a.jpg)

Pixel 2

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 03, 2021, 01:30:29 PM
Here are a couple more... (images snipped)

Hershey needs to update the toll signs now that the PTC eliminated cash  :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on January 03, 2021, 08:25:12 PM
"Breezewood" should be where the loading/unloading platform is as that's where everyone has to get on and off of the "Turnpike".

Everyone?  What about those just taking I-76?

Speaking of I-76, what *would* a Schuylkill Expressway-themed ride look (and feel) like?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on January 04, 2021, 06:15:44 AM
Speaking of I-76, what *would* a Schuylkill Expressway-themed ride look (and feel) like?

ixnay

At certain times of the day, the ride wouldn't move at all.  :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 04, 2021, 08:11:07 AM
Speaking of I-76, what *would* a Schuylkill Expressway-themed ride look (and feel) like?

ixnay

At certain times of the day, the ride wouldn't move at all.  :-D

 :-D :-D

And other times of the day, you'll have the world's fastest roller coaster swerving in and out of the cars.  It won't even be on the tracks...that ride is on the other side of the park!

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 04, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
Do people outside of this forum call it the "sure kill"?  If so, parents might be scared to let their kids ride something based on it...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 04, 2021, 01:26:26 PM
Do people outside of this forum call it the "sure kill"?  If so, parents might be scared to let their kids ride something based on it...

The term has been around since at least the 1960's, if not before, as evidenced in this PDF download which referenced the term in a Philadelphia Evening Bulletin story (The Bulletin may have even been a larger newspaper than the Philadelphia Inquirer, but it folded in the 1980s).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjBp5S_8oLuAhWNZM0KHfG5DtM4ChAWMAF6BAgFEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.psu.edu%2Fpmhb%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F44721%2F44442%2F&usg=AOvVaw2TbJvxDUJ1KpLYPoyvI8Io

Someone even mentioned it in this letter to the editor in the Washington Post in 1993: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/09/05/letter-from-the-sure-kill-expressway/10918354-5ccb-4ce6-a8c1-cdeda7e512b2/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on January 05, 2021, 04:36:45 PM
Turnpike plan to bypass Allegheny Mountain Tunnel drawing criticism from local groups:

https://www.dailyamerican.com/news/local/somerset/turnpike-plan-to-bypass-allegheny-mountain-tunnel-drawing-criticism-from-local-groups/article_7e6d139e-3685-11eb-bf8a-e3865f2d1362.html (https://www.dailyamerican.com/news/local/somerset/turnpike-plan-to-bypass-allegheny-mountain-tunnel-drawing-criticism-from-local-groups/article_7e6d139e-3685-11eb-bf8a-e3865f2d1362.html)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 10, 2021, 08:51:29 PM
The PATC has announced that tomorrow,  a new project will begin for the total reconstruction to 6 lanes from MP 101 to 110.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on January 11, 2021, 12:57:17 AM
The PATC has announced that tomorrow,  a new project will begin for the total reconstruction to 6 lanes from MP 101 to 110.

So between the Laurel Hill Tunnel bypass and the Somerset Interchange. This will, I believe, be the first fully six-lane section of Turnpike on the I-70 concurrency, not counting any climbing lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on January 11, 2021, 08:26:37 AM
The PATC has announced that tomorrow,  a new project will begin for the total reconstruction to 6 lanes from MP 101 to 110.

So between the Laurel Hill Tunnel bypass and the Somerset Interchange. This will, I believe, be the first fully six-lane section of Turnpike on the I-70 concurrency, not counting any climbing lanes.

This also means there will be no more original 1940 Turnpike remaining west of the Allegheny Tunnel, save for the bypassed Laurel Hill Tunnel. All other sections between Irwin and the Allegheny Tunnel were already reconstructed, if not widened to six lanes.

The section just east of the Allegheny Tunnel (including removal of the church steps) is due to begin reconstruction in early 2022. Replacement of the Tunnel itself...that may be a while yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 11, 2021, 09:08:56 AM
The PATC has announced that tomorrow,  a new project will begin for the total reconstruction to 6 lanes from MP 101 to 110.

So between the Laurel Hill Tunnel bypass and the Somerset Interchange. This will, I believe, be the first fully six-lane section of Turnpike on the I-70 concurrency, not counting any climbing lanes.

This also means there will be no more original 1940 Turnpike remaining west of the Allegheny Tunnel, save for the bypassed Laurel Hill Tunnel. All other sections between Irwin and the Allegheny Tunnel were already reconstructed, if not widened to six lanes.

The section just east of the Allegheny Tunnel (including removal of the church steps) is due to begin reconstruction in early 2022. Replacement of the Tunnel itself...that may be a while yet.

I believe that is all correct...even though the website says all of the miles between MP 67 and the Allegheny Tunnel have been reconstructed.  Unfortunately, many of those miles were the earliest reconstruction projects, before the decision to widen to 6 lanes consistently.  So those miles may be some of the last to get widened to 6 lanes.

I didn't realize that all of the miles east of MP 110 had been reconstructed.  I knew quite a few were...but not all.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 11, 2021, 09:16:31 AM
The PATC has announced that tomorrow,  a new project will begin for the total reconstruction to 6 lanes from MP 101 to 110.

So between the Laurel Hill Tunnel bypass and the Somerset Interchange. This will, I believe, be the first fully six-lane section of Turnpike on the I-70 concurrency, not counting any climbing lanes.

This also means there will be no more original 1940 Turnpike remaining west of the Allegheny Tunnel, save for the bypassed Laurel Hill Tunnel. All other sections between Irwin and the Allegheny Tunnel were already reconstructed, if not widened to six lanes.

The section just east of the Allegheny Tunnel (including removal of the church steps) is due to begin reconstruction in early 2022. Replacement of the Tunnel itself...that may be a while yet.

As with many parts of the "mountain" part of the East-West Mainline of the Penn Pike, it is a long way between the interchanges at Somerset and Bedford (around 37 miles) and Bedford and Breezewood (around 16 miles).  I have to wonder if PTC is going consider adding interchanges to serve some of the smaller towns like New Baltimore and Everett which the Turnpike now bypasses?  No expensive toll plazas or trumpet-to-trumpet interchanges needed any longer at such locations.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ketchup99 on January 11, 2021, 10:05:22 AM
I hesitate to describe New Baltimore as a "town," but Everett would certainly warrant an interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 11, 2021, 11:29:37 AM
It's a shame they didn't build the 85-94 and 110-123 sections (rebuilt in the early 2000s) didn't have space to easily add a third lane outside of the climbing lanes.  They will be bottlenecks for a long time, especially during holidays, as I doubt the Turnpike will go back to widen them before they reconstruct most of the remaining Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on January 11, 2021, 12:33:59 PM
Random thought: Since Harrisburg has Turnpike interchanges named Harrisburg West (I-83) and Harrisburg East (I-283), I think the Turnpike Commission should rename a few interchanges outside of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia to give people more of a hint that you can use those interchanges to access each city, and fort more consistency in naming. For example, I think Cranberry (I-79) should be renamed Pittsburgh North, Pittsburgh (I-376/U.S. 22) should be renamed Pittsburgh East, Valley Forge (I-76/U.S. 422) should be renamed Philadelphia West, Fort Washington (PA 309) should be renamed Philadelphia North, and Delaware Valley (I-95) should be renamed Philadelphia East.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 11, 2021, 02:27:52 PM
I actually like having the exit names be more local to where they are at. For example, technically the interchange in Monroeville is called "Pittsburgh", but I'd change it to "Monroeville".  The control cities can be for the bigger, more "important" destinations.   But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

I'm curious as to how long the names will last once (*if* - I still believe it's the plan) they have free-flowing mainline toll gantries instead of at the interchanges.  Not saying they'll even get rid of the names (and I don't really want them to), but over the course of time, I wouldn't be surprised if they get removed for just the exit number.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 11, 2021, 03:16:42 PM
I actually like having the exit names be more local to where they are at. For example, technically the interchange in Monroeville is called "Pittsburgh", but I'd change it to "Monroeville".  The control cities can be for the bigger, more "important" destinations.   But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

I'm curious as to how long the names will last once (*if* - I still believe it's the plan) they have free-flowing mainline toll gantries instead of at the interchanges.  Not saying they'll even get rid of the names (and I don't really want them to), but over the course of time, I wouldn't be surprised if they get removed for just the exit number.

On that note, maybe they'll finally give Mid-County two exit numbers, one for 476 traffic and one for WB 276 traffic (instead of saying it is Exit 20 for both).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 11, 2021, 07:19:06 PM
I hesitate to describe New Baltimore as a "town," but Everett would certainly warrant an interchange.

It does not need to be there, but having access near there to PA-31 would be a good idea.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on January 11, 2021, 11:29:15 PM
I actually like having the exit names be more local to where they are at. For example, technically the interchange in Monroeville is called "Pittsburgh", but I'd change it to "Monroeville".  The control cities can be for the bigger, more "important" destinations.   But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

I'm curious as to how long the names will last once (*if* - I still believe it's the plan) they have free-flowing mainline toll gantries instead of at the interchanges.  Not saying they'll even get rid of the names (and I don't really want them to), but over the course of time, I wouldn't be surprised if they get removed for just the exit number.

On that note, maybe they'll finally give Mid-County two exit numbers, one for 476 traffic and one for WB 276 traffic (instead of saying it is Exit 20 for both).

I definitely hope they do this when they eventually move to open-road tolling. "Exit 20" as it exists today may have been a necessity of the ticket system, but it also only makes sense with the ticket system that will no longer exist. (There are already no actual tickets since everything's all-electronic, but everything still behaves like E-ZPass on the ticket system always did.) Logical numbering would be 20 for I-476 and 334 for I-276.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2021, 09:20:19 AM
I actually like having the exit names be more local to where they are at. For example, technically the interchange in Monroeville is called "Pittsburgh", but I'd change it to "Monroeville".  The control cities can be for the bigger, more "important" destinations.   But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

I'm curious as to how long the names will last once (*if* - I still believe it's the plan) they have free-flowing mainline toll gantries instead of at the interchanges.  Not saying they'll even get rid of the names (and I don't really want them to), but over the course of time, I wouldn't be surprised if they get removed for just the exit number.

On that note, maybe they'll finally give Mid-County two exit numbers, one for 476 traffic and one for WB 276 traffic (instead of saying it is Exit 20 for both).

I definitely hope they do this when they eventually move to open-road tolling. "Exit 20" as it exists today may have been a necessity of the ticket system, but it also only makes sense with the ticket system that will no longer exist. (There are already no actual tickets since everything's all-electronic, but everything still behaves like E-ZPass on the ticket system always did.) Logical numbering would be 20 for I-476 and 334 for I-276.

Actually, true *logical* numbering, if you're on I-476, would be I-276 West is Exit 20B, and I-276 is Exit 20A.  I-476 wouldn't have an exit number, because it simply continues as I-476...it doesn't even exit itself like some highways.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on January 12, 2021, 10:41:15 AM
I actually like having the exit names be more local to where they are at. For example, technically the interchange in Monroeville is called "Pittsburgh", but I'd change it to "Monroeville".  The control cities can be for the bigger, more "important" destinations.   But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

I'm curious as to how long the names will last once (*if* - I still believe it's the plan) they have free-flowing mainline toll gantries instead of at the interchanges.  Not saying they'll even get rid of the names (and I don't really want them to), but over the course of time, I wouldn't be surprised if they get removed for just the exit number.

On that note, maybe they'll finally give Mid-County two exit numbers, one for 476 traffic and one for WB 276 traffic (instead of saying it is Exit 20 for both).

I definitely hope they do this when they eventually move to open-road tolling. "Exit 20" as it exists today may have been a necessity of the ticket system, but it also only makes sense with the ticket system that will no longer exist. (There are already no actual tickets since everything's all-electronic, but everything still behaves like E-ZPass on the ticket system always did.) Logical numbering would be 20 for I-476 and 334 for I-276.

Actually, true *logical* numbering, if you're on I-476, would be I-276 West is Exit 20B, and I-276 is Exit 20A.  I-476 wouldn't have an exit number, because it simply continues as I-476...it doesn't even exit itself like some highways.

That's what I meant; I just worded it poorly. 20A/B for 276 east/west from I-476 (with 20B northbound being the Germantown Pike/Plymouth Road exit) and 334 A/B for 476 south/north from I-276 (with the eastbound exit being just 334 due to the lack of a direct EB-SB movement) is exactly what I had in mind.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: D-Dey65 on January 12, 2021, 06:45:18 PM
Here are a couple more... (images snipped)

Hershey needs to update the toll signs now that the PTC eliminated cash  :-D
I'm not so sure. It looks like fun either way, even if you've been capable of doing the real thing for decades.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 05, 2021, 10:40:52 AM
A recent study finds that, driven the greatest end-to-end distance (Gateway to Clarks Summit via Mid-County) and using Toll-By-Plate, the PA Turnpike is the most expensive toll road worldwide.

https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/story/news/2021/03/03/pa-turnpike-tolls-most-expensive/6902492002/

The biggest issue that I have with this is that the study compares toll facilities without regard to their length, i.e. long-distance turnpikes, toll bridges, and everything in between. A better comparison would be comparing toll facilities by cost per unit of distance, either miles or kilometers, including methods of payment.

For comparison purposes, an example I'll use is the PA Turnpike vs the West Virginia Turnpike. Currently, it costs 13.6 cents/mile to travel the WV Turnpike regardless of payment method (unless you're in the single fee program). The PA Turnpike is more expensive (by a lot) if you pay by mail (25.5 cents/mile), but CHEAPER using EZ Pass (12.6 cents/mile).

Another example using a much shorter distance would be the Delaware Turnpike portion of I-95, which costs 33.3 cents/mile regardless of payment method ($4 to travel from the MD line to I-295).

The Holland Tunnel costs between $11.75 and $16, depending on payment method and time of day, to travel 1.62 miles. That's at least $7.25/mile! Exactly why comparing toll facilities needs to account for distance traveled and other factors.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 05, 2021, 02:37:20 PM
I wonder how it compares to ON 407 or the Confederation Bridge.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wilbur_the_goose on March 07, 2021, 08:10:57 AM
I noticed yesterday that the tollbooth overhead signage for EZ Pass/Cash were removed from Downingtown and Reading interchanges.   Also, I think the 5 MPH speed limit signs were replace with "Keep Moving" signs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SGwithADD on March 07, 2021, 12:49:19 PM
A recent study finds that, driven the greatest end-to-end distance (Gateway to Clarks Summit via Mid-County) and using Toll-By-Plate, the PA Turnpike is the most expensive toll road worldwide.

https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/story/news/2021/03/03/pa-turnpike-tolls-most-expensive/6902492002/

The biggest issue that I have with this is that the study compares toll facilities without regard to their length, i.e. long-distance turnpikes, toll bridges, and everything in between. A better comparison would be comparing toll facilities by cost per unit of distance, either miles or kilometers, including methods of payment.

For comparison purposes, an example I'll use is the PA Turnpike vs the West Virginia Turnpike. Currently, it costs 13.6 cents/mile to travel the WV Turnpike regardless of payment method (unless you're in the single fee program). The PA Turnpike is more expensive (by a lot) if you pay by mail (25.5 cents/mile), but CHEAPER using EZ Pass (12.6 cents/mile).

Another example using a much shorter distance would be the Delaware Turnpike portion of I-95, which costs 33.3 cents/mile regardless of payment method ($4 to travel from the MD line to I-295).

The Holland Tunnel costs between $11.75 and $16, depending on payment method and time of day, to travel 1.62 miles. That's at least $7.25/mile! Exactly why comparing toll facilities needs to account for distance traveled and other factors.

Not that the turnpike isn't expensive, but the study's also a bit misleading. It quotes the toll for traveling from the Ohio border to Clarks Summit via the turnpike and the NE extension, yet reports only the base mainline mileage of 360 miles (580 km in the study, because Australia).  End-to-end on the mainline is $95.30, while Ohio to Clarks Summit at $112.90 is a ~447-mile journey (not to mention one that nobody would normally take, as it makes more sense to use 80 to 81 instead of going south then north).  This article at least discusses the mainline toll, but others seem to be leaving it out completely.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 07, 2021, 08:17:30 PM
I noticed yesterday that the tollbooth overhead signage for EZ Pass/Cash were removed from Downingtown and Reading interchanges.   Also, I think the 5 MPH speed limit signs were replace with "Keep Moving" signs.

There are 15 MPH signs at the Valley Forge interchange.  Likewise, the overhead signage was removed from Mid-County and Bensalem interchanges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on March 09, 2021, 11:05:12 PM
I heard that Maryland has a sign at Hancock, MD on WB I-70 informing motorists that I-68 is free road westward. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 10, 2021, 12:09:44 AM
I heard that Maryland has a sign at Hancock, MD on WB I-70 informing motorists that I-68 is free road westward. 
nope
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadrunner75 on March 10, 2021, 01:55:38 AM
I heard that Maryland has a sign at Hancock, MD on WB I-70 informing motorists that I-68 is free road westward. 
nope
The closest to that is probably just this "Alt Route West" sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on March 10, 2021, 06:13:45 PM
I heard that Maryland has a sign at Hancock, MD on WB I-70 informing motorists that I-68 is free road westward. 
nope
The closest to that is probably just this "Alt Route West" sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Or the MD-68 is not I-68 sign.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 15, 2021, 09:38:44 AM
It is amazing the Turnpike hasn't covered up the signs for slip ramps that still say they are for only for E-ZPass customers.  They themselves have said in an online newsletter that those are no longer exclusive to tagholders (and you can even calculate Toll by Plate rates for those exits).

Also, it sounds like the PA Turnpike might actually start widening in the MP 320-326 section.  They would only widen between the Valley Forge Service Plaza and interchange (about 2 miles) and work could begin some time this year.  The tree clearing work they have been doing lately is part of the project.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on March 15, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
It is amazing the Turnpike hasn't covered up the signs for slip ramps that still say they are for only for E-ZPass customers.  They themselves have said in an online newsletter that those are no longer exclusive to tagholders (and you can even calculate Toll by Plate rates for those exits).

They've actually opened them up to toll-by-plate? I know they said pre-pandemic that they were going to when they went all-electronic on the mainline, but didn't notice that they had actually done it yet.

I don't think they've actually changed any permanent signage yet for AET. I'm sure they would have on the original timeframe, but now they might just not be in any hurry. They have, however, removed all the overhead signage for each lane at the toll plazas, including the digital displays on newer toll plazas. Now it's just empty spaces; they didn't even bother putting up generic "E-ZPass/Toll by Plate" signs over each lane like they did the Northeast Extension, I-376, PA 43, and PA 66. Maybe they'll fast-track toll plaza removal and open-road tolling conversion now that the mainline is AET, or maybe they're just waiting until they get around to changing all the signage to put those generic over-lane signs up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 15, 2021, 10:20:50 PM
The pessimist in me wonders if they'll just leave everything like that figuring "traffic has been coping with it so far, why spend money we don't have?".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 16, 2021, 09:03:01 AM
It is amazing the Turnpike hasn't covered up the signs for slip ramps that still say they are for only for E-ZPass customers.  They themselves have said in an online newsletter that those are no longer exclusive to tagholders (and you can even calculate Toll by Plate rates for those exits).

They've actually opened them up to toll-by-plate? I know they said pre-pandemic that they were going to when they went all-electronic on the mainline, but didn't notice that they had actually done it yet.

I don't think they've actually changed any permanent signage yet for AET. I'm sure they would have on the original timeframe, but now they might just not be in any hurry. They have, however, removed all the overhead signage for each lane at the toll plazas, including the digital displays on newer toll plazas. Now it's just empty spaces; they didn't even bother putting up generic "E-ZPass/Toll by Plate" signs over each lane like they did the Northeast Extension, I-376, PA 43, and PA 66. Maybe they'll fast-track toll plaza removal and open-road tolling conversion now that the mainline is AET, or maybe they're just waiting until they get around to changing all the signage to put those generic over-lane signs up.

Some of the major interchanges now have the "All Lanes: E-ZPass or Toll-By-Plate" signs at entry & exit.  I know Lehigh Valley, Carlisle, and Gettysburg Pike have them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 16, 2021, 09:48:06 AM
The pessimist in me wonders if they'll just leave everything like that figuring "traffic has been coping with it so far, why spend money we don't have?".

That is my sentiment on this.  I think I have been on the PA Turnpike once in the last two years.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on March 16, 2021, 07:36:11 PM
The pessimist in me wonders if they'll just leave everything like that figuring "traffic has been coping with it so far, why spend money we don't have?".

Because the Turnpike is great at spending money it doesn't have.  :sombrero:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 17, 2021, 08:17:56 AM
I heard that Maryland has a sign at Hancock, MD on WB I-70 informing motorists that I-68 is free road westward. 
nope
The closest to that is probably just this "Alt Route West" sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Did that sign replace the blue on white "[I-68 shield]/Alternate Route to Ohio and Points West" sign?

ixnay
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on March 17, 2021, 08:41:26 AM
I heard that Maryland has a sign at Hancock, MD on WB I-70 informing motorists that I-68 is free road westward. 
nope
The closest to that is probably just this "Alt Route West" sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6533096,-78.0477514,3a,80.7y,343.04h,99.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqFM4r56x3NGNKtY2fbZgeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Did that sign replace the blue on white "[I-68 shield]/Alternate Route to Ohio and Points West" sign?

ixnay

No - that one also still exists a mile upstream from the one Roadrunner75 linked:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6443704,-78.0369482,3a,37.6y,323.54h,88.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stnk3CaDUtmciFjCX-_ANrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 20, 2021, 08:04:06 PM
Looks like there might be some new directional signage noting AET sitting in the maintenance facility just off the Mid County interchange.

EDIT: I got a better look today.  Looks like signage for the Street Road slip ramp - it says NO TRUCKS and seems to have a TO directional indicator (likely to 95/NJTP).  They are modifying that intersection alongside the US 1 construction, so it makes sense.  I did not see E-ZPass ONLY on that sign, so it might be the first one indicating the ramp is open to any car.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on March 21, 2021, 10:12:31 PM
I went through the Valley Forge interchange today and noticed that the overhead E-ZPass/cash signs are still up over each toll plaza lane, though they have installed the "Keep Moving" signs. Are there any other interchanges known where they haven't removed the overhead signs yet? Every other interchange I've been through recently (Harrisburg East, Lebanon-Lancaster, Downingtown, and Norristown) don't have them anymore.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on March 23, 2021, 07:43:45 PM
Does the short connector between the New Stanton Interchange and US 119/PA 66 have a signed number?  It looks like it is just SR 3091 or “New Stanton-Youngwood Rd”  but naturally Google shows it as PA 66B.  I don’t see anything on GSV to suggest 66B is real?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on March 23, 2021, 07:52:20 PM
How does the 31A and 31B work now being cash is eliminated?  Is 31B closed to traffic on the NE Extension?  Or did they close 31A?  Or did they make 31A for PA 63 E Bound and 31B for PA 63 WB?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 23, 2021, 08:42:27 PM
How does the 31A and 31B work now being cash is eliminated?  Is 31B closed to traffic on the NE Extension?  Or did they close 31A?  Or did they make 31A for PA 63 E Bound and 31B for PA 63 WB?

I don't think they've established that yet.  Personally, I'd make Exit 31A for eastbound traffic and Exit 31B for westbound
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 23, 2021, 08:45:55 PM
Does the short connector between the New Stanton Interchange and US 119/PA 66 have a signed number?  It looks like it is just SR 3091 or “New Stanton-Youngwood Rd”  but naturally Google shows it as PA 66B.  I don’t see anything on GSV to suggest 66B is real?

I do not believe it is any signed route, but clarifying this with District 12 would not hurt.

How does the 31A and 31B work now being cash is eliminated?  Is 31B closed to traffic on the NE Extension?  Or did they close 31A?  Or did they make 31A for PA 63 E Bound and 31B for PA 63 WB?

I believe that you could probably use either exit and just get a bill in the mail. However, I have not driven this part of I-476 since I clinched it in 2016.  Maybe briantroutman could clarify this one.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on March 23, 2021, 10:31:18 PM
For now, nothing has really changed at 31A and 31B, including the signing.  Both exits are open, and 31B can be used to access both directions of Route 63.  I go up there about once a month.  I will be going back up there in a couple of weeks, so I will pay more attention then.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on March 24, 2021, 08:17:47 PM
Does the short connector between the New Stanton Interchange and US 119/PA 66 have a signed number?  It looks like it is just SR 3091 or “New Stanton-Youngwood Rd”  but naturally Google shows it as PA 66B.  I don’t see anything on GSV to suggest 66B is real?

It is a quadrant route (SR 3091), which is not signed other than on PennDOT's little white signs. From US 119 and PA 66, it is signed as I-70/I-76/Turnpike. From I-70/I-76, it is signed as US 119/Turnpike 66.

Since the whole complex more-or-less functions as one big interchange, I don't think there would be much benefit to independently signing the connector. Just indicating the routes it connects to is less confusing for drivers.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on March 27, 2021, 11:09:39 PM
Took a ride on the Turnpike today for the first time since they went to AET. My observation is that they really need to step up their signage at the toll plazas that you don't need to stop for a ticket anymore. Got on at the Bensalem interchange, and the guy in front of me came to a complete stop expecting to take a ticket. Luckily everyone else was slowing up to go thru the toll booths, but the only signs there were small ones on the booths themselves that said "Keep Moving". They need some more signs to not stop and that all tolling is electronic until they take the booths down.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on March 28, 2021, 07:08:22 PM
For the first several months after the switch to AET, the VMS on the road had a repeating message about not stopping. That was not running today, but they were showing weather warning messages instead. A "pre-entry" sign on PA315 still had the AET message running.

I had a quick trip up and back to the Scranton area today, and on the NE Extension, as noted upthread, the lane mode signs have been removed.

It seems weird to me that at Mid-County, with the open-road-gantries, that they have kept all the unused booths open. It would seem at some point they would funnel people more towards either the ORT gantry or lanes closer to it.

Further north, the formerly E-ZPass only Exit 87 has had all "tagholder only signs" removed. The mainline plaza past Wilkes-Barre has also had its advanced overhead warning signs updated to read "Toll Plaza Ahead / Reduce Speed" (replacing the Pay Toll / E-Z Pass legend).

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 28, 2021, 07:42:48 PM
Took a ride on the Turnpike today for the first time since they went to AET. My observation is that they really need to step up their signage at the toll plazas that you don't need to stop for a ticket anymore. Got on at the Bensalem interchange, and the guy in front of me came to a complete stop expecting to take a ticket. Luckily everyone else was slowing up to go thru the toll booths, but the only signs there were small ones on the booths themselves that said "Keep Moving". They need some more signs to not stop and that all tolling is electronic until they take the booths down.

Maybe "Do Not Stop" signs would have been better?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2021, 11:12:41 PM
Took a ride on the Turnpike today for the first time since they went to AET. My observation is that they really need to step up their signage at the toll plazas that you don't need to stop for a ticket anymore. Got on at the Bensalem interchange, and the guy in front of me came to a complete stop expecting to take a ticket. Luckily everyone else was slowing up to go thru the toll booths, but the only signs there were small ones on the booths themselves that said "Keep Moving". They need some more signs to not stop and that all tolling is electronic until they take the booths down.

Maybe "Do Not Stop" signs would have been better?

As long as there's no signage saying Stop, take ticket, it's engrained in people to stop and get a ticket.  Until they remove the plazas, some people are going to look for that ticket.  They would do this in EZ Pass Only lanes too. 

Also...people don't look at signs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Zeffy on March 29, 2021, 09:49:40 AM
Took a ride on the Turnpike today for the first time since they went to AET. My observation is that they really need to step up their signage at the toll plazas that you don't need to stop for a ticket anymore. Got on at the Bensalem interchange, and the guy in front of me came to a complete stop expecting to take a ticket. Luckily everyone else was slowing up to go thru the toll booths, but the only signs there were small ones on the booths themselves that said "Keep Moving". They need some more signs to not stop and that all tolling is electronic until they take the booths down.

Maybe "Do Not Stop" signs would have been better?

When I was coming home one night on 476 north at the Mid County interchange, some doofus nearly caused someone in the right lane (of the toll gantry) to wreck because they thought it was a good idea to STOP AND REVERSE PAST THE GORE POINT TO GET BACK TO THE TOLLBOOTH LANES. The dude had to swerve so aggressively I wasn't sure if he did it or not without wrecking.

There are DO NOT STOP signs and KEEP MOVING signs. People lacking braincells will ignore them regardless.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on March 29, 2021, 11:10:08 AM
Took a ride on the Turnpike today for the first time since they went to AET. My observation is that they really need to step up their signage at the toll plazas that you don't need to stop for a ticket anymore. Got on at the Bensalem interchange, and the guy in front of me came to a complete stop expecting to take a ticket. Luckily everyone else was slowing up to go thru the toll booths, but the only signs there were small ones on the booths themselves that said "Keep Moving". They need some more signs to not stop and that all tolling is electronic until they take the booths down.

Maybe "Do Not Stop" signs would have been better?

When I was coming home one night on 476 north at the Mid County interchange, some doofus nearly caused someone in the right lane (of the toll gantry) to wreck because they thought it was a good idea to STOP AND REVERSE PAST THE GORE POINT TO GET BACK TO THE TOLLBOOTH LANES. The dude had to swerve so aggressively I wasn't sure if he did it or not without wrecking.

There are DO NOT STOP signs and KEEP MOVING signs. People lacking braincells will ignore them regardless.


You should see the maneuvers people make at the Polk Central Plaza in Lakeland, FL.  They get into a manned lane not aware prepaid transponders are excepted in all lanes. So they back up and reverse direction until before the gore point, and then enter the dedicated SunPass lane.

Then some morons actually go through a SunPass only lane, continue pass the plaza, and back up into the attended lane to attempt to pay the toll they did not pay.

Then in Orlando some foreigner goes through the open road bypass lanes and stops on the shoulder, gets out of his car, climbs over the Jersey barrier, nearly loses his life to a large semi, and almost makes it to the manned toll booth and says this “I got into the wrong lane by mistake. I need to pay my toll.”

Then we had one man make a u turn facing the wrong way heading back to the toll plaza to attempt to pay a toll that he missed using a SunPass only lane. He even got confrontational with the Plaza Supervisor who tried to explain to him the process of going through dedicated transponder lanes.

Like Jeff and Nicole said here in another thread “ People don’t read the signs.”
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 02, 2021, 07:20:54 PM
Looks like the Turnpike is starting booth removal at Mid-County. Over the weekend, the ramp from the WB Turnpike to I-476 South has been reduced from two lanes to one (the directional signage for the toll plaza split was replaced with an "ALL LANES E-ZPass or Toll By Plate" sign). The two lanes from the NE Extension now merge into one past the I-276 ramps, and all traffic is funneled into the two existing Express E-ZPass lanes, while the cash lanes are completely closed off. The old traffic pattern where the Germantown Pike on-ramp created the third lane on I-476 has been restored.

Right now, I-476 north traffic still splits between the express lanes and the cash lanes.

Not sure if the PTC plans to add a lane through the toll gantry, but I am thinking this might create some congestion if traffic continues to pick up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on May 03, 2021, 09:29:28 AM
What I found interesting last night, all the lane control lights for the old booths were still green, which stands out much more than the temporary bollards closing off access. (not Jersey Barriers) 

At the other end of the NE Extension, a similar issues arises at Clarks Summit, where a lane is indicated open, but blocked off ahead of a single lane pattern to the extreme left past the plaza.

I guess there is no one left to "turn out the lights"
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 04, 2021, 05:44:09 PM
In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Pennslyvania Turnpike?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 04, 2021, 08:43:55 PM
Some good news here

Pennsylvania Turnpike adds nearly $200 million to capital spending as commercial traffic returns (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/05/04/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-capital-spending-commercial-traffic-spending-increase/stories/202105040147)

This includes resumption of widening projects and the removal of toll plazas (starting in NE PA).  If the Legislature follows through with reducing the annual transit payments, the work will expand to interchange reconfiguration.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: SignBridge on May 04, 2021, 08:44:46 PM
I haven't driven the entire Penn. Turnpike. But I like going west from Harrisburg on the twelve-mile straight stretch seeing the mountains in the distance getting closer and closer until you go up the gradual curving incline to the first tunnel.

Also from Phila. to Harrisburg is a mostly pleasant scenic drive. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Angelo71 on May 04, 2021, 08:45:16 PM
In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Pennslyvania Turnpike?
New Stanton to Breezewood. It is so scenic! I love I-70 from Breezewood to MD though. I love it!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on May 04, 2021, 09:02:56 PM
In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Pennslyvania Turnpike?

Everything from (and including) the Susquehanna River Bridge westward, and on the NE Extension everything from Lehigh Valley northward.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 04, 2021, 09:03:25 PM
In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Pennslyvania Turnpike?

If you want to see something cool, near the bottom of the hill east of the Allegheny Tunnel, there is a stretch of meandering roadway that allows you to see several iterations of the curves looking straight ahead.  GSV doesn't do it justice.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 04, 2021, 11:24:16 PM
Some good news here

Pennsylvania Turnpike adds nearly $200 million to capital spending as commercial traffic returns (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/05/04/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-capital-spending-commercial-traffic-spending-increase/stories/202105040147)

This includes resumption of widening projects and the removal of toll plazas (starting in NE PA).  If the Legislature follows through with reducing the annual transit payments, the work will expand to interchange reconfiguration.

Looks like the long-awaited widening near Valley Forge will finally begin later this year: https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp324to326/

Also good to see the rate of toll increase will begin to slow down (from 6% to 5%, and eventually to 3%). Of course it would be nice to not have any toll increase at all, but the legacy of Act 44 will live on for quite a while yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on May 05, 2021, 05:58:44 AM
In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Pennslyvania Turnpike?

As you are driving on a free road that runs parallel to it.  :colorful:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 08:03:24 AM
In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Pennslyvania Turnpike?

As you are driving on a free road that runs parallel to it.  :colorful:
On it, not of it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on May 05, 2021, 08:24:37 AM
In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Pennslyvania Turnpike?

As you are driving on a free road that runs parallel to it.  :colorful:
On it, not of it.

I presume that was mainly sarcasm directed at PTC's, er, above-market-value tolls, but I will throw out that you get the same scenery on US 30 as the Turnpike passing thru the 2 water gaps between Bedford & Everett (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0138079,-78.439608,5956m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 08:30:26 AM
The PA Turnpike does appear to be a step up from the NJ Turnpike and the NYS Thruway scenery wise.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 05, 2021, 10:22:29 PM
Any speculation on when and what additional project will be announced.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 06, 2021, 01:13:34 PM
Regarding the 324-326 Valley Forge-Area widening:  does anyone know if the bridge carrying the Turnpike over US 422 and N Gulph Road is going to be fully replaced?

The piers underneath have a diagonal portion.  Before the County Line Expwy was built (at one time was unnumbered and a portion carried PA 363 briefly), Gulph Road used to travel from northeast to southwest...you can still see the old cut-off end.  Because of that pier, I believe US 422 cannot be widened to 6 lanes, even though US 422 gets wider just east (south) of there, and they just completed the widening of the bridge over the Schuylill River.  That wider river bridge can handle 8 lanes (6+2).  So it would be nice to at least reconfigure those piers and hopefully enable the US 422 widening.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 06, 2021, 02:32:35 PM
Regarding the 324-326 Valley Forge-Area widening:  does anyone know if the bridge carrying the Turnpike over US 422 and N Gulph Road is going to be fully replaced?

The piers underneath have a diagonal portion.  Before the County Line Expwy was built (at one time was unnumbered and a portion carried PA 363 briefly), Gulph Road used to travel from northeast to southwest...you can still see the old cut-off end.  Because of that pier, I believe US 422 cannot be widened to 6 lanes, even though US 422 gets wider just east (south) of there, and they just completed the widening of the bridge over the Schuylill River.  That wider river bridge can handle 8 lanes (6+2).  So it would be nice to at least reconfigure those piers and hopefully enable the US 422 widening.

It would be nice but that bridge also doesn't appear that old, so it might be wishful thinking.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on May 06, 2021, 05:39:43 PM
Regarding the 324-326 Valley Forge-Area widening:  does anyone know if the bridge carrying the Turnpike over US 422 and N Gulph Road is going to be fully replaced?

The piers underneath have a diagonal portion.  Before the County Line Expwy was built (at one time was unnumbered and a portion carried PA 363 briefly), Gulph Road used to travel from northeast to southwest...you can still see the old cut-off end.  Because of that pier, I believe US 422 cannot be widened to 6 lanes, even though US 422 gets wider just east (south) of there, and they just completed the widening of the bridge over the Schuylill River.  That wider river bridge can handle 8 lanes (6+2).  So it would be nice to at least reconfigure those piers and hopefully enable the US 422 widening.

Yes, it will be replaced, and this will allow PennDOT to widen 422 later.

It would be nice but that bridge also doesn't appear that old, so it might be wishful thinking.

It's still the original bridge; it was just widened in the 1990s to have full outside shoulders and an eastbound exit lane. The inside portion is still the original structure from the early 1950s, just redecked when they widened it. The reason for the diagonal pier is that the bridge predates the US 422 expressway, and before that was built, there was a four-way intersection between Gulph Road and the original County Line Road underneath it. This 1950 imagery of the bridge under construction (https://historicaerials.com/location/40.09012908830635/-75.41422122153386/1950/18) clearly shows this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 06, 2021, 11:05:53 PM
Regarding the 324-326 Valley Forge-Area widening:  does anyone know if the bridge carrying the Turnpike over US 422 and N Gulph Road is going to be fully replaced?

The piers underneath have a diagonal portion.  Before the County Line Expwy was built (at one time was unnumbered and a portion carried PA 363 briefly), Gulph Road used to travel from northeast to southwest...you can still see the old cut-off end.  Because of that pier, I believe US 422 cannot be widened to 6 lanes, even though US 422 gets wider just east (south) of there, and they just completed the widening of the bridge over the Schuylill River.  That wider river bridge can handle 8 lanes (6+2).  So it would be nice to at least reconfigure those piers and hopefully enable the US 422 widening.

Yes, it will be replaced, and this will allow PennDOT to widen 422 later.

It would be nice but that bridge also doesn't appear that old, so it might be wishful thinking.

It's still the original bridge; it was just widened in the 1990s to have full outside shoulders and an eastbound exit lane. The inside portion is still the original structure from the early 1950s, just redecked when they widened it. The reason for the diagonal pier is that the bridge predates the US 422 expressway, and before that was built, there was a four-way intersection between Gulph Road and the original County Line Road underneath it. This 1950 imagery of the bridge under construction (https://historicaerials.com/location/40.09012908830635/-75.41422122153386/1950/18) clearly shows this.

Yep, now I see it. It’s buried in the construction overview

https://www.patpconstruction.com/mp324to326/bridge.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on May 11, 2021, 09:40:48 PM
PTC has started installing toll-by-plate signage on the Mon-Fayette Expressway. I drove on the part south of Uniontown this afternoon. Coming in from West Virginia, there is a large sign announcing that tolling is by E-ZPass or bill later with plate. Signage before the mainline plaza now has E-ZPass and toll-by-plate rates. Overhead signage for the ramp toll plazas was changed, replacing the old "STOP PAY TOLL" signage with one indicating E-ZPass or toll-by-plate. It looks like signage for the mainline plaza will be changed soon.

One minor thing I noticed - this part of the Mon-Fayette had a complete sign replacement around 2018 using FHWA alphabet. The new signs are using Clearview.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2021, 11:36:16 AM
Some good news here

Pennsylvania Turnpike adds nearly $200 million to capital spending as commercial traffic returns (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/05/04/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-capital-spending-commercial-traffic-spending-increase/stories/202105040147)

This includes resumption of widening projects and the removal of toll plazas (starting in NE PA).  If the Legislature follows through with reducing the annual transit payments, the work will expand to interchange reconfiguration.

Reducing the transit subsidy payments from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to PennDOT as mandated by Act 44 and then Act 89 is already on schedule to happen.  But that is not likely to cause tolls to go down nor the amount of money for turnpike improvements to go up that much.  That's because the Turnpike Commission did not have cash on hand to make those transit subsidy payments, but sold bonds secured by future toll revenues to come up with the cash.  Those bonds have billions of dollars in principal outstanding and will be slowly paid-down over the coming decades.  Until the bonds are paid-off, the burden of the transit subsidy payments will remain on the PTC and its patrons.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on May 14, 2021, 12:46:19 PM
First look at new Southern Beltway toll road to connect I-79 to PIT via WPXI

I find it hard to believe PTC still does not have toll rates set.

https://www.wpxi.com/news/top-stories/first-look-new-southern-beltway-toll-road-connect-i79-pit/ZIV4PJYYMBDMXD5KQYKNFGEFJA (https://www.wpxi.com/news/top-stories/first-look-new-southern-beltway-toll-road-connect-i79-pit/ZIV4PJYYMBDMXD5KQYKNFGEFJA)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 14, 2021, 10:44:11 PM
First look at new Southern Beltway toll road to connect I-79 to PIT via WPXI

I find it hard to believe PTC still does not have toll rates set.

https://www.wpxi.com/news/top-stories/first-look-new-southern-beltway-toll-road-connect-i79-pit/ZIV4PJYYMBDMXD5KQYKNFGEFJA (https://www.wpxi.com/news/top-stories/first-look-new-southern-beltway-toll-road-connect-i79-pit/ZIV4PJYYMBDMXD5KQYKNFGEFJA)

I wonder if they will have an "open house" like they did for the first section, where you can walk or bike on the new roadway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on May 15, 2021, 09:44:08 PM
I was on the Uniontown-Brownsville part of the Mon-Fayette Expressway yesterday. The mainline toll plaza in this stretch was built with high-speed E-ZPass lanes. Even after to AET, they had kept the toll booths open but no longer. The exit to them is now blocked off with cones and they have taken down the overhead signs for the plazas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 16, 2021, 11:14:48 AM
Might be venturing somewhat off topic, but the Post-Gazette examined the "secrecy" of many of the Commission's meetings.

https://newsinteractive.post-gazette.com/pennsylvania-turnpike-commission-sunshine-act-layoffs-gramian-lieberman-transparency/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 16, 2021, 05:32:04 PM
I noticed today, on PA 63 west, the BPS (Big Purple Signs) for E-Z Pass Only at the slip on-ramp have been replaced with regular BGS and with both the E-Z Pass and Toll-By-Plate logos.

I was on I-476 northbound last weekend, and nothing had changed in terms of how Exits 31A and 31B are signed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on May 17, 2021, 11:41:00 AM
I noticed today, on PA 63 west, the BPS (Big Purple Signs) for E-Z Pass Only at the slip on-ramp have been replaced with regular BGS and with both the E-Z Pass and Toll-By-Plate logos.

I was on I-476 northbound last weekend, and nothing had changed in terms of how Exits 31A and 31B are signed.

Additionally, both the Lansdale and Quakertown exits now have the permanent "E-ZPass or Toll-By-Plate only" BGSes on the entrances to the toll plazas from their respective local roads. I don't know about further up on the Northeast Extension, but I haven't seen any interchange on the mainline with these signs yet. I only regularly drive it east of Harrisburg West, though, and there may be some in the Philly area that have them that I haven't seen yet.

Weirdly, Valley Forge is the only toll plaza I've seen since the AET conversion (mainline or NE Ext) where the signs over each lane are still up, though all have been changed to the old standard "E-ZPass Only" signs and none say cash or tickets. I was just through this toll plaza yesterday and can confirm that the signs are still up in both directions.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 17, 2021, 02:50:57 PM
I noticed today, on PA 63 west, the BPS (Big Purple Signs) for E-Z Pass Only at the slip on-ramp have been replaced with regular BGS and with both the E-Z Pass and Toll-By-Plate logos.

I was on I-476 northbound last weekend, and nothing had changed in terms of how Exits 31A and 31B are signed.

Additionally, both the Lansdale and Quakertown exits now have the permanent "E-ZPass or Toll-By-Plate only" BGSes on the entrances to the toll plazas from their respective local roads. I don't know about further up on the Northeast Extension, but I haven't seen any interchange on the mainline with these signs yet. I only regularly drive it east of Harrisburg West, though, and there may be some in the Philly area that have them that I haven't seen yet.

Weirdly, Valley Forge is the only toll plaza I've seen since the AET conversion (mainline or NE Ext) where the signs over each lane are still up, though all have been changed to the old standard "E-ZPass Only" signs and none say cash or tickets. I was just through this toll plaza yesterday and can confirm that the signs are still up in both directions.

Lehigh Valley has the permanent signage, as does Mid-County (southbound).  Oddly, there is a separate "E-ZPass or Toll By Plate" sign at the entrance to the Turnpike in Carlisle that I saw in a video.  It is next to the Turnpike trailblazer at the gore point of the ramp to the toll plaza.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on May 18, 2021, 10:01:33 AM
Lehigh Valley has the permanent signage, as does Mid-County (southbound).  Oddly, there is a separate "E-ZPass or Toll By Plate" sign at the entrance to the Turnpike in Carlisle that I saw in a video.  It is next to the Turnpike trailblazer at the gore point of the ramp to the toll plaza.

Something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4785319,-75.6849368,3a,75y,345.16h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2e51Ice9uCoK0Kw6IVTtZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)? (From Clarks Summit - this one presumably has been around longer since Keyser Ave & Clarks Summit went cashless in April 2018.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 18, 2021, 03:40:31 PM
Lehigh Valley has the permanent signage, as does Mid-County (southbound).  Oddly, there is a separate "E-ZPass or Toll By Plate" sign at the entrance to the Turnpike in Carlisle that I saw in a video.  It is next to the Turnpike trailblazer at the gore point of the ramp to the toll plaza.

Something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4785319,-75.6849368,3a,75y,345.16h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2e51Ice9uCoK0Kw6IVTtZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)? (From Clarks Summit - this one presumably has been around longer since Keyser Ave & Clarks Summit went cashless in April 2018.)

That's it.  It's definitely an afterthought and easy to miss.  Something like Maryland that has a BGS with "E-ZPass" and "No Cash" on it might be clearer.

https://goo.gl/maps/CjuVBNDHcM7iXkmf6
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 18, 2021, 03:50:23 PM
Lehigh Valley has the permanent signage, as does Mid-County (southbound).  Oddly, there is a separate "E-ZPass or Toll By Plate" sign at the entrance to the Turnpike in Carlisle that I saw in a video.  It is next to the Turnpike trailblazer at the gore point of the ramp to the toll plaza.

Something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4785319,-75.6849368,3a,75y,345.16h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2e51Ice9uCoK0Kw6IVTtZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)? (From Clarks Summit - this one presumably has been around longer since Keyser Ave & Clarks Summit went cashless in April 2018.)

That's it.  It's definitely an afterthought and easy to miss.  Something like Maryland that has a BGS with "E-ZPass" and "No Cash" on it might be clearer.

https://goo.gl/maps/CjuVBNDHcM7iXkmf6
Except that the MD sign is EZPass only.  Whereas the PA Turnpike is no longer EZPass only...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 18, 2021, 08:33:10 PM
Lehigh Valley has the permanent signage, as does Mid-County (southbound).  Oddly, there is a separate "E-ZPass or Toll By Plate" sign at the entrance to the Turnpike in Carlisle that I saw in a video.  It is next to the Turnpike trailblazer at the gore point of the ramp to the toll plaza.

Something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4785319,-75.6849368,3a,75y,345.16h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2e51Ice9uCoK0Kw6IVTtZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)? (From Clarks Summit - this one presumably has been around longer since Keyser Ave & Clarks Summit went cashless in April 2018.)

That's it.  It's definitely an afterthought and easy to miss.  Something like Maryland that has a BGS with "E-ZPass" and "No Cash" on it might be clearer.

https://goo.gl/maps/CjuVBNDHcM7iXkmf6
Except that the MD sign is EZPass only.  Whereas the PA Turnpike is no longer EZPass only...

They're using the same format for AET signage.  I tried to look for the one installed at the Hatem Bridge like that but GSV went through before AET was activated.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on May 19, 2021, 12:31:11 PM
Lehigh Valley has the permanent signage, as does Mid-County (southbound).  Oddly, there is a separate "E-ZPass or Toll By Plate" sign at the entrance to the Turnpike in Carlisle that I saw in a video.  It is next to the Turnpike trailblazer at the gore point of the ramp to the toll plaza.

Something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4785319,-75.6849368,3a,75y,345.16h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2e51Ice9uCoK0Kw6IVTtZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)? (From Clarks Summit - this one presumably has been around longer since Keyser Ave & Clarks Summit went cashless in April 2018.)

That's it.  It's definitely an afterthought and easy to miss.  Something like Maryland that has a BGS with "E-ZPass" and "No Cash" on it might be clearer.

https://goo.gl/maps/CjuVBNDHcM7iXkmf6

This MdTA assembly is more in line with "official" MUTCD signage for these sorts of roadways. I do also believe that the forthcoming edition of the MUTCD is going to include better guidance on handling how to sign AET situations like the PATP is now since that is becoming more common.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on May 19, 2021, 08:18:08 PM
Drove through Mid County today and they're prepping to take down the toll gantry. All of the non-EZPass Express lanes are blocked off and they're erecting transponder/plate scanners over those lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 19, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
Drove through Mid County today and they're prepping to take down the toll gantry. All of the non-EZPass Express lanes are blocked off and they're erecting transponder/plate scanners over those lanes.

Good.  Hoping they restore the third lane through the tolls, and get rid of those rumble strips from the old toll plaza that are still there for the SB Express lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on May 20, 2021, 04:40:10 PM
One minor thing I noticed - this part of the Mon-Fayette had a complete sign replacement around 2018 using FHWA alphabet. The new signs are using Clearview.
Par for the course.  Both the PTC & PennDOT have since started reusing Clearview on their newer signs since the Interim Approval was reinstated a few years ago.

Drove through Mid County today and they're prepping to take down the toll gantry. All of the non-EZPass Express lanes are blocked off and they're erecting transponder/plate scanners over those lanes.
I've been by there several times in the last 2 months & noticed that the new pull-thorough BGS' for I-476 southbound feature the reverse-order of its two control cities vs. what's on the earlier-installed approach & diagrammatic signs.  Chester/Philadelphia as opposed to Philadelphia/Chester.
:rolleyes: Hooray for consistency!  *dripping with sarcasm*

It appears that whoever signed it looked only at the older 90s-vintage pre-E-ZPass express signs, from old photos, that were there rather than review the newer ones erected further north. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 28, 2021, 09:04:57 AM
The PTC has posted its 2022 Capital Plan. Some highlights:

-The next segment of the NE Extension reconstruction begins later this year, up to the Quakertown interchange.
-Looks like this year is the last you'll get to see the New Baltimore church steps, as reconstruction starts there next year.
-The Cashless Tolling Conversion appears to be fully funded
-Around mid-decade we get the Beaver River Bridge replacement and the new Lafayette Street interchange in Norristown, as well as reconstruction between the Downingtown and PA 29 interchanges.
-The Allegheny Mountain Tunnel replacement and Delaware River Bridge replacements occur toward the end of the decade, as does the Scranton Beltway.

Curiously, the reconstruction between PA 29 and Valley Forge appears unfunded despite being shown on the PTC site as starting later this year.

https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/FY22_Captial_Plan.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 28, 2021, 05:18:36 PM
Looks like signage around the E-ZPass slip ramps is changing.  The 2 mile advance sign for the Street Road exit no longer says E-ZPass ONLY (the 1 mile sign still does).  The toll plaza is also no longer listed on the BGS listing the exits around Bensalem.

The Virginia Drive BGS signage also no longer references E-ZPass.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 11, 2021, 08:41:38 PM
The E-ZPass Only signage has been removed at the entrance from PA 29 in Malvern (one sign remains but the foundation for a new sign is ready).  On the Turnpike, the advance BGS still say E-ZPass ONLY but the same note has been removed from the distance sign after the Downingtown interchange (though the text now says "SR 29" next to the SR 29 shield).

I also noticed new wood utility poles along the westbound side between Malvern and Morgantown every one or two tenths of a mile. Only thought is that is for the fiber optic cable they are installing but I thought they were burying that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on June 12, 2021, 08:42:36 AM
The E-ZPass Only signage has been removed at the entrance from PA 29 in Malvern (one sign remains but the foundation for a new sign is ready).

I also noticed new wood utility poles along the westbound side between Malvern and Morgantown every one or two tenths of a mile. Only thought is that is for the fiber optic cable they are installing but I thought they were burying that.

Maybe the fiberoptic lines willbe on the poles until the widening projects start,and then will be buried as part of the widening.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2021, 09:00:52 AM
The E-ZPass Only signage has been removed at the entrance from PA 29 in Malvern (one sign remains but the foundation for a new sign is ready).

I also noticed new wood utility poles along the westbound side between Malvern and Morgantown every one or two tenths of a mile. Only thought is that is for the fiber optic cable they are installing but I thought they were burying that.

Maybe the fiberoptic lines willbe on the poles until the widening projects start,and then will be buried as part of the widening.

If there's a project starting soon, most likely those poles will be used for street lighting.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 13, 2021, 09:59:40 AM
The E-ZPass Only signage has been removed at the entrance from PA 29 in Malvern (one sign remains but the foundation for a new sign is ready).

I also noticed new wood utility poles along the westbound side between Malvern and Morgantown every one or two tenths of a mile. Only thought is that is for the fiber optic cable they are installing but I thought they were burying that.

Maybe the fiberoptic lines willbe on the poles until the widening projects start,and then will be buried as part of the widening.

If there's a project starting soon, most likely those poles will be used for street lighting.

I don't see PTC use that as much as PennDOT, and these went on for 10+ miles (normally they only put poles for lights at the point where the lanes shift)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on June 30, 2021, 11:36:09 AM
Looks like changes were made to Mid-County going north into the tolls as well.  I was driving in the opposite direction, so I could only see the signs, but it looks like traffic for I-276 EB is directed into the old toll plaza while NE Extension traffic is directed into the Express lanes.  I don't know if there was separation after the toll plaza to force the decision.

There is now AET signage approaching the tolls
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on July 03, 2021, 01:07:32 PM
Looks like they're getting ready to replace the PA 441 bridge over the turnpike in the Harrisburg area. I wonder if PTC is eying an extension of the 6-lanes between the Harrisburg east and west interchanges in the not too distant future? Because after they replace this bridge, the only bridges that might need to be replaced to connect that 6 lane section to the widened (though not striped) segment around the Swatara creek bridge is the bridge carrying the airport connector. That would add several miles of 6-lane highway.

Temporary bridge to be put in place in Dauphin County (https://www.abc27.com/news/traffic/temporary-bridge-to-be-put-in-place-in-dauphin-county/[/url)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 03, 2021, 04:47:50 PM
Looks like they're getting ready to replace the PA 441 bridge over the turnpike in the Harrisburg area. I wonder if PTC is eying an extension of the 6-lanes between the Harrisburg east and west interchanges in the not too distant future? Because after they replace this bridge, the only bridges that might need to be replaced to connect that 6 lane section to the widened (though not striped) segment around the Swatara creek bridge is the bridge carrying the airport connector. That would add several miles of 6-lane highway.

Temporary bridge to be put in place in Dauphin County
 (https://www.abc27.com/news/traffic/temporary-bridge-to-be-put-in-place-in-dauphin-county/[/url)

Actual Link: https://www.abc27.com/news/traffic/temporary-bridge-to-be-put-in-place-in-dauphin-county/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 06, 2021, 12:25:51 PM
Another year, another toll hike (5%, likely same size hikes through 2028)

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/07/06/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-commission-toll-increase-hike-January-2022-5-percent-EZ-Pass/stories/202107050084

In comparison, a trip I just took on the Thruway cost about a third of what the same distance on the Turnpike would cost.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 18, 2021, 08:09:46 PM
I am not sure why the reversal, but it looks like, after another Sunday morning closure of SB I-476 at Mid-County, the toll booths have been reopened.  The traffic cameras show a few vehicles going through the old booths, but most using the E-ZPass Express lanes.  I assume this was done for traffic relief given the squeeze to two lanes otherwise.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on July 21, 2021, 08:33:52 AM
I also noticed new wood utility poles along the westbound side between Malvern and Morgantown every one or two tenths of a mile. Only thought is that is for the fiber optic cable they are installing but I thought they were burying that.

The utility poles are now in place westbound, starting at the Valley Forge interchange and up until the Malvern interchange to join the above.  I also noticed new utility poles southbound on the NE Extension south of the Quakertown interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jemacedo9 on July 21, 2021, 08:39:05 AM
I was on I-476 northbound last weekend, and nothing had changed in terms of how Exits 31A and 31B are signed.

On the NE Ext, the former EZ-Pass only ramp northbound at Exit 31 has now been signed as Exit 31A - PA 63 East - Kulpsville, and the advance BGS for the original Exit 31 is now Exit 31B - PA 63 West - Harleysville.  At the ramp to Exit 31B, the original BGS is there for just PA 63 - Harleysville / Kulpsville, but is labeled Exit 31B.  I wasn't using that exit, so I don't know if turns are restricted at the end of each ramp.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ekt8750 on July 21, 2021, 10:53:05 PM
I am not sure why the reversal, but it looks like, after another Sunday morning closure of SB I-476 at Mid-County, the toll booths have been reopened.  The traffic cameras show a few vehicles going through the old booths, but most using the E-ZPass Express lanes.  I assume this was done for traffic relief given the squeeze to two lanes otherwise.

Went through there today and notice the approach signage to the toll plaza has now been updated (all in some hideous looking, poorly kerned Clearview no less) with signage for I-276 East now reading I-276 East to I-95 North with New York as the sole control city.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PHLBOS on July 21, 2021, 11:38:49 PM
I was on I-476 northbound last weekend, and nothing had changed in terms of how Exits 31A and 31B are signed.

On the NE Ext, the former EZ-Pass only ramp northbound at Exit 31 has now been signed as Exit 31A - PA 63 East - Kulpsville, and the advance BGS for the original Exit 31 is now Exit 31B - PA 63 West - Harleysville.  At the ramp to Exit 31B, the original BGS is there for just PA 63 - Harleysville / Kulpsville, but is labeled Exit 31B.  I wasn't using that exit, so I don't know if turns are restricted at the end of each ramp.
Unless the PTC revamped that cloverleaf ramp to bypass merging with the southbound exiting traffic, I don't believe such is the movement is restricted to PA 63 westbound.

In theory, the end of the Exit 31A ramp could now eliminate the left-turn movements for PA 63 westbound.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 23, 2021, 08:29:37 PM
I am not sure why the reversal, but it looks like, after another Sunday morning closure of SB I-476 at Mid-County, the toll booths have been reopened.  The traffic cameras show a few vehicles going through the old booths, but most using the E-ZPass Express lanes.  I assume this was done for traffic relief given the squeeze to two lanes otherwise.

Drove through last night.  They removed the overhead signage for a lane drop, restored two lanes on the ramp from I-276 WB, and have re-opened three lanes of the toll plaza in addition to the Express lanes (but none of the plaza has been demolished).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on July 28, 2021, 11:38:18 PM
The PTC has made its last $450 million Act 44 payment to PennDOT...

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pa-turnpike-makes-last-450m-payment-to-penndot/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 29, 2021, 06:33:37 AM
The PTC has made its "last" $450 million Act 44 payment to PennDOT...

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pa-turnpike-makes-last-450m-payment-to-penndot/

Fixed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on July 29, 2021, 08:59:44 AM
The PTC has made its "last" $450 million Act 44 payment to PennDOT...

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pa-turnpike-makes-last-450m-payment-to-penndot/

Fixed.

I wasn't aware my original statement needed to be "fixed". According to current state law, this is the last time they'll pay $450 million. Starting next year, it's only $50 million. They (and I) did not say last payment...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 29, 2021, 10:25:26 AM
The PTC has made its "last" $450 million Act 44 payment to PennDOT...

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pa-turnpike-makes-last-450m-payment-to-penndot/

Fixed.

I wasn't aware my original statement needed to be "fixed". According to current state law, this is the last time they'll pay $450 million. Starting next year, it's only $50 million. They (and I) did not say last payment...

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, since I doubt PA's transit authorities will suddenly give up $400 million in revenue. I fully expect a new law to be approved to provide more than $50 million next year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on July 29, 2021, 10:35:02 AM
The PTC has made its "last" $450 million Act 44 payment to PennDOT...

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pa-turnpike-makes-last-450m-payment-to-penndot/

Fixed.

I wasn't aware my original statement needed to be "fixed". According to current state law, this is the last time they'll pay $450 million. Starting next year, it's only $50 million. They (and I) did not say last payment...

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, since I doubt PA's transit authorities will suddenly give up $400 million in revenue. I fully expect a new law to be approved to provide more than $50 million next year.

Gotcha. There is a provision in law for the lost $400 million to be made up from motor vehicle sales tax revenue, which goes to PA's General Fund. So, while transit funding will be ok, this will leave a hole in the budget which the legislature will need to account for...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 14, 2021, 08:39:20 AM
Bad news in an article today: The Turnpike has about $100 million in uncollected Toll-by-Plate revenue.  That number is huge.

Good news: they are in the design/engineering stage of converting to gantries.  I assume this is the old 2022/2024 schedule they had before the accelerated conversion to cashless tolling.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-losses-free-rides-tolls-20210914.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on September 14, 2021, 11:19:35 AM
Bad news in an article today: The Turnpike has about $100 million in uncollected Toll-by-Plate revenue.  That number is huge.

Good news: they are in the design/engineering stage of converting to gantries.  I assume this is the old 2022/2024 schedule they had before the accelerated conversion to cashless tolling.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-losses-free-rides-tolls-20210914.html

Some amount of churn is always going to be expected with a setup like this, especially if it's an out of state driver whose license or registration you can't threaten if they don't pay. 100 million seems like an awful lot tho.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 14, 2021, 11:38:16 AM
What percentage of the total collected?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2021, 03:11:48 PM
Bad news in an article today: The Turnpike has about $100 million in uncollected Toll-by-Plate revenue.  That number is huge.

Good news: they are in the design/engineering stage of converting to gantries.  I assume this is the old 2022/2024 schedule they had before the accelerated conversion to cashless tolling.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-losses-free-rides-tolls-20210914.html

I would love to see a breakdown of the largest uncollected revenue locations. I would think one area would be the Delaware River ORT after you come in from the NJ Turnpike. I could see that many people would believe they've already paid the toll and think that's just a billing mistake, not realizing the PA Turnpike has their own tolling location there.  It was also a location where open road tolling has been in effect longer than most of the rest of the turnpike.

As for it being noted in the story that the camera didn't pick up the license plate because it was out of frame, that could be a huge issue with that roadway's system.  The camera's storage should be digital, and should be able to be rolled back and forth to locate the license plate. Things like bike racks and other obstructions, while a valid excuse, should really be a minimal excuse. And while PA doesn't have front license plate, nearly every other state in the region does. If the PA Turnpike is using the lack of a front license plate as an excuse, then maybe a lot of the problem is due to their own population.  It's hard to tell from the article though since they flung a lot of excuses out there.  But at $100 million...I don't know how they can say they're not even the worst state in trying to collect pay-by-plate tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on September 14, 2021, 03:29:08 PM
What percentage of the total collected?

$100 million is under 10% of total fare revenue (net of discounts)--7.5% for 2019 ($1.327 billion) and 7.8% for 2020 ($1.279 billion), per the 2020 annual report (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/2020_Annual_Report.pdf).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on September 14, 2021, 04:20:23 PM
What percentage of the total collected?

$100 million is under 10% of total fare revenue (net of discounts)--7.5% for 2019 ($1.327 billion) and 7.8% for 2020 ($1.279 billion), per the 2020 annual report (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/2020_Annual_Report.pdf).
A more interesting number is motorists who don’t use E-ZPass having a nearly 1 in 2 chance of riding without paying under the “toll-by-plate”  license plate camera system.
For me, that puts a huge question mark on entire toll-by-plate approach.
And an elephant in the room is, of course, $450M payment for transit which Turnpike struggles with.

UPD: given that toll-by-plate rates are about 2x of EZpass ones, I would say they pretty much break even here with 50% collection efficiency.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on September 14, 2021, 07:40:17 PM
What percentage of the total collected?

$100 million is under 10% of total fare revenue (net of discounts)--7.5% for 2019 ($1.327 billion) and 7.8% for 2020 ($1.279 billion), per the 2020 annual report (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/2020_Annual_Report.pdf).
A more interesting number is motorists who don’t use E-ZPass having a nearly 1 in 2 chance of riding without paying under the “toll-by-plate”  license plate camera system.
For me, that puts a huge question mark on entire toll-by-plate approach.
And an elephant in the room is, of course, $450M payment for transit which Turnpike struggles with.

UPD: given that toll-by-plate rates are about 2x of EZpass ones, I would say they pretty much break even here with 50% collection efficiency.
Lack of front plates and obscured back plates (Thule bike racks) are both cited. The latter case should alert police and result in a certain other source of revenue when passing under a gantry.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on September 15, 2021, 12:18:44 AM
What percentage of the total collected?

$100 million is under 10% of total fare revenue (net of discounts)--7.5% for 2019 ($1.327 billion) and 7.8% for 2020 ($1.279 billion), per the 2020 annual report (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/2020_Annual_Report.pdf).
A more interesting number is motorists who don’t use E-ZPass having a nearly 1 in 2 chance of riding without paying under the “toll-by-plate” license plate camera system.
For me, that puts a huge question mark on entire toll-by-plate approach.
And an elephant in the room is, of course, $450M payment for transit which Turnpike struggles with.

UPD: given that toll-by-plate rates are about 2x of EZpass ones, I would say they pretty much break even here with 50% collection efficiency.
Lack of front plates and obscured back plates (Thule bike racks) are both cited. The latter case should alert police and result in a certain other source of revenue when passing under a gantry.

It also doesn't help that several people around here have 'altered' plates.  I've seen plates where have the reflective coating is gone on just the numbers, all gone, sanded numbers, plates pealing to the bare medal, you name it!  Honestly, they should add checking license plates condition to the inspection process.  Make those people fail inspection till they get a replacement plate from the state, as some of it is obvious intentional damage to it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on September 15, 2021, 07:25:24 AM
What percentage of the total collected?

$100 million is under 10% of total fare revenue (net of discounts)--7.5% for 2019 ($1.327 billion) and 7.8% for 2020 ($1.279 billion), per the 2020 annual report (https://www.paturnpike.com/pdfs/business/2020_Annual_Report.pdf).
A more interesting number is motorists who don’t use E-ZPass having a nearly 1 in 2 chance of riding without paying under the “toll-by-plate”  license plate camera system.
For me, that puts a huge question mark on entire toll-by-plate approach.
And an elephant in the room is, of course, $450M payment for transit which Turnpike struggles with.

UPD: given that toll-by-plate rates are about 2x of EZpass ones, I would say they pretty much break even here with 50% collection efficiency.
Lack of front plates and obscured back plates (Thule bike racks) are both cited. The latter case should alert police and result in a certain other source of revenue when passing under a gantry.
Punitive attitude towards well-meaning citizens with no easy alternative solutions offered to them - what can go wrong with that?
Trailers, bike racks, larger loads carried with semi-open trunk  are all well established parts of daily life. Death penalty for jaywalking is a more logical idea, compared to excersizing such revenue options.

And even then.. Data from the paper:
of 11 M  uncollected tolls:
"not paid" - 6.7 M transactions
"state agencies fail to provide address" - 1.5 M transactions
"bills undeliverable" - 1 M transactions
"plate unidentified" - 1.8 M transactions

of unidentified plates
1.1%, or whooping 20k transactions, are intentional defacing of the plate
41%, or 740 k, are unintentional blocked plates
that leaves 58 %, or over 1M cases, to non-functioning equipment.

Looks to me that bicycle racks are the minorest problem here. Biggest one is those who just show middle finger to the too-smart-ass agency.
 Legal framework for cashless tolls, probably on a federal level, may do a lot.  Lobbying legislature for mandatory front plate may be a low-hanging fruit for Turnpike. And of course some better engineering always helps - looks like plate readers are just shy of 90% success rate. Well, that number is not terrible...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on September 15, 2021, 09:19:12 AM
I wonder if there is a noticeable difference in image quality at ORT gantry installs vs. the "in-place" toll-booth cameras. Seems there is far more cameras at the ORT gantry as well (more than one per lane).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on September 15, 2021, 10:00:39 AM
I wonder if there is a noticeable difference in image quality at ORT gantry installs vs. the "in-place" toll-booth cameras. Seems there is far more cameras at the ORT gantry as well (more than one per lane).
I looked up at what is on the gantries. There are quite a few things there, including pretty fancy camera optimization and vehicle fingerprinting for identification beyond reading the license plate. So if plate reader works on one station but fails on the other, fingerprint can still be used.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on September 15, 2021, 11:27:50 AM
Just a scenario question on the topic of toll by plate scanning in general -- perhaps it has happened to you:

You are driving your own passenger vehicle (license plate ABC-123) but towing a trailer U-Haul or otherwise with a different license plate number (ZYX-987).  Who's license plate gets billed, or is it double billed -- once for each plate?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 15, 2021, 02:52:22 PM

It also doesn't help that several people around here have 'altered' plates.  I've seen plates where have the reflective coating is gone on just the numbers, all gone, sanded numbers, plates pealing to the bare medal, you name it!  Honestly, they should add checking license plates condition to the inspection process.  Make those people fail inspection till they get a replacement plate from the state, as some of it is obvious intentional damage to it.

It's clear some are defacing their plates or placing dark covers over them (the latter is definitely illegal - they must find inspection mechanics that turn a blind eye or they remove them once a year).  However, the PA plates have been peeling themselves without doing anything (seems it is a bigger issue with plates within the last 10 years).  I had one where the film was delaminating, which created dark spots.  I agree about the inspection, as a mechanic can complete a form for a free replacement standard plate.  Unfortunately, those with vanity or specialty plates have to pay the full fee for a new one, which is absurd.

Just a scenario question on the topic of toll by plate scanning in general -- perhaps it has happened to you:

You are driving your own passenger vehicle (license plate ABC-123) but towing a trailer U-Haul or otherwise with a different license plate number (ZYX-987).  Who's license plate gets billed, or is it double billed -- once for each plate?

The administrator is supposed to note the difference when looking up the owner, but there have been instances in other states where this does not happen and it has made news.  I can tell you the system is not smart enough to notice a simultaneous E-ZPass read and a video toll (I have had a read-proof bag fail where I stored a Maryland Hatem Bridge transponder - even though I had a valid E-ZPass on my windshield, it read both tags and then did a license plate lookup on the invalid Maryland tag read, which resulted in some double billings).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on September 15, 2021, 03:27:52 PM
The larger context here is that manual toll collection on ticket toll roads has historically been about 30% of revenue collected.  This leaves a lot of room for high initial costs of electronic toll collection infrastructure as well as leakage at various points in a toll-by-plate collection process.  Nor does every error necessarily cost the turnpike agency.  As already noted in this thread, and as I have learned from personal experience on the Kansas Turnpike, there are many scenarios where process failures (involving either transponders or cameras) result in a too-high toll being charged that then becomes the payer's responsibility to contest.

This said, I think that for an agency with a mature process for transponder collection (i.e., no antipatterns such as using toll gantries for backdoor speed enforcement), the best results usually come from using a transponder with a single vehicle (not a combination) that is owned rather than rented.  I've used pay-by-plate in situations where the alternative would have been massively inconvenient (e.g., the Golden Gate Bridge), but I always breathe a sigh of relief when the transaction goes through correctly.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on September 15, 2021, 08:25:51 PM

It also doesn't help that several people around here have 'altered' plates.  I've seen plates where have the reflective coating is gone on just the numbers, all gone, sanded numbers, plates pealing to the bare medal, you name it!  Honestly, they should add checking license plates condition to the inspection process.  Make those people fail inspection till they get a replacement plate from the state, as some of it is obvious intentional damage to it.

It's clear some are defacing their plates or placing dark covers over them (the latter is definitely illegal - they must find inspection mechanics that turn a blind eye or they remove them once a year).  However, the PA plates have been peeling themselves without doing anything (seems it is a bigger issue with plates within the last 10 years).  I had one where the film was delaminating, which created dark spots.  I agree about the inspection, as a mechanic can complete a form for a free replacement standard plate.  Unfortunately, those with vanity or specialty plates have to pay the full fee for a new one, which is absurd.

Well, I know we've never had any issues with our plates.  Ours have stayed pretty much in mint condition (with no plate cover).  Maybe we've been lucky, who knows.

But if the reflective part is missing from only the numbers on the plate, hands down, that's 100% intentional, and that person should be forced to pay for a new plate, even if it's a standard one.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: NJRoadfan on September 15, 2021, 08:43:39 PM
I haven't had any issue using ticket toll roads with E-ZPass for close to 20 years now. The transponder tech is solid and works. For those wondering, LPR tech has gotten REALLY good. I'm amazed at how well it reads terrible plates with peeling/bubbling reflective coatings and dirt or other obstructions (including plate covers). Things like double reads are accounted for and the ETC lanes have other sensors to work with as well to determine what is a "vehicle". LPR still can't really distinguish the state that issued a plate though, so manual verification is needed for this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 20, 2021, 03:57:54 PM
There is now a construction page for the fiber optics the Turnpike is laying, and the installation photos do show the previously referenced poles.  The project has the cable going all the way to Harrisburg East (I-283).

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/fiber_project.aspx
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on October 15, 2021, 12:05:51 PM
The Southern Beltway (PA Turnpike 576) section between US 22 and I-79 is opening today, albeit with partial access at I-79 due to incomplete ramps which will be finished by next summer.

https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2021/10/15/southern-beltway-set-to-open-to-traffic-friday/


*Also posted in the Southern Beltway-PA Turnpike 576 thread on the Ohio Valley board.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on October 17, 2021, 09:25:51 AM
The remaining Mon-Fayette Expressway and Southern Beltway projects may not be finished until the 2040s!

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/17/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-Mon-Fayette-Expressway-long-term-projects/stories/202110170090
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on October 18, 2021, 04:06:21 PM
The remaining Mon-Fayette Expressway and Southern Beltway projects may not be finished until the 2040s!

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/17/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-Mon-Fayette-Expressway-long-term-projects/stories/202110170090

I'm whatever the opposite of shocked is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 27, 2021, 05:49:52 PM
(For PA 345 as well)  PennDOT - District 6 News: PA Turnpike to Route 345 (Bulltown Road) Beginning November 22 for Bridge Construction in West Nantmeal Township (https://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=7144)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 27, 2021, 09:09:30 PM
The remaining Mon-Fayette Expressway and Southern Beltway projects may not be finished until the 2040s!

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/17/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-Mon-Fayette-Expressway-long-term-projects/stories/202110170090

I'm whatever the opposite of shocked is.

Imagine where these projects would be if the Pennsylvania Legislature had not ordered  PTC to pour billions of dollars down the transit subsidy rathole with Act 44.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 27, 2021, 11:08:58 PM
The remaining Mon-Fayette Expressway and Southern Beltway projects may not be finished until the 2040s!

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/17/Pennsylvania-Turnpike-Southern-Beltway-Mon-Fayette-Expressway-long-term-projects/stories/202110170090

I'm whatever the opposite of shocked is.

Imagine where these projects would be if the Pennsylvania Legislature had not ordered  PTC to pour billions of dollars down the transit subsidy rathole with Act 44.

Using Covid-19 as an excuse is a non-excuse, because it hit everyone relatively equally.  Most transportation agencies aren't using that on a continual basis like the PTC is doing.  Many other agencies have seen most of their traffic return to normal, or fairly close to normal.

Also, how important were those highways anyway?  Even with Act 44, the money that the PA Turnpike does have winds up being spent on roads of questionable value, whereas the money could be better spent in areas where traffic demands call for widening and construction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on October 28, 2021, 12:08:44 PM
Also, how important were those highways anyway?  Even with Act 44, the money that the PA Turnpike does have winds up being spent on roads of questionable value, whereas the money could be better spent in areas where traffic demands call for widening and construction.

The PTC funds the construction of the Mon-Fayette Expressway and Southern Beltway projects through revenue (and borrowing against that revenue) that it receives from the gas tax and registration fees. These fund transfers are mandated in Act 89 of 2013 and previous legislation. This means that the PTC has been sending toll revenue to PennDOT for mass transit, while PennDOT sends gas tax money to the PTC to build roads and collect tolls on those roads. It should be noted that the legislature can't just reverse this and use gas tax money for mass transit, because that would be unconstitutional in PA (gas taxes are reserved for roads, and apparently the State Police).

 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on October 29, 2021, 12:21:14 AM
Turnpike to build interchange in Penn Township, Westmoreland County

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/28/Turnpike-to-build-interchange-in-Penn-Township-Westmoreland-County/stories/202110280153 (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/28/Turnpike-to-build-interchange-in-Penn-Township-Westmoreland-County/stories/202110280153)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on October 29, 2021, 01:11:25 AM
Even though Manny Guzman, a lawmaker from Berks County, wants to see toll booth workers back in the toll plazas during peak hours, the PA Turnpike CEO said that "the potential return of toll booth workers is not something that is under consideration at the turnpike" and "Because we have to get to the next phase of this system, toll booths won't be at these interchanges for much longer, so that process is really behind us now."

https://www.wtae.com/article/pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-booth-workers-bill/38089999
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 30, 2021, 01:20:20 PM
Turnpike to build interchange in Penn Township, Westmoreland County

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/28/Turnpike-to-build-interchange-in-Penn-Township-Westmoreland-County/stories/202110280153 (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/10/28/Turnpike-to-build-interchange-in-Penn-Township-Westmoreland-County/stories/202110280153)

In here, it's clear the toll plazas won't be gone for five more years.  The Thruway was able to get rid of them in less than two.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on November 01, 2021, 05:27:16 PM
In here, it's clear the toll plazas won't be gone for five more years.  The Thruway was able to get rid of them in less than two.

All of that is intertwined with their project to deploy fiber optic cable along their ROW.  Like the EZ-Pass deployment, they're starting east and eventually making it west.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 02, 2021, 12:43:15 PM
Looks like the plans for the MP 126-131 construction have been posted as part of a "constructability review".  I see a few curve removals in there (likely where the drainage boxes are sitting in the grass off the EB side of the road going down the hill).

https://ebs.paturnpike.com/generalinformation/help/files/120_126_131_RECONSTRUCTION.PDF
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on November 17, 2021, 12:53:45 PM
Some updates on construction projects found while perusing the Turnpike's new website:

-Reconstruction from MP 28-31, MP 102-109, and MP 324-326 is underway, with completion in 2022, 2024, and 2025 respectively.
-The reconstruction of the Northeast Extension from MP A38-A44 is out for bids.
-Reconstruction from approx. MP 126-131 will go to bid next year. This project will eliminate the steps at New Baltimore.
-Looking at the updated Total Reconstruction Initiative table, final design will be complete next year for MP 312-316 and from MP 351-355 (two projects, separated by the Neshaminy toll barrier), presumably with those projects going to bid shortly thereafter.
-The Northeast Extension from Quakertown to Lehigh Valley will see bridge replacements over the next several years, including the I-78 bridge. Reconstruction starts around the mid-2020's.
-The earliest Pittsburgh area project on the mainline Turnpike (besides what's already under construction) appears to be MP 62-66, which will complete design in 2026.
-There's not much yet on the Turnpike website for the upcoming SR 130 interchange.
-The Allegheny Mountain Tunnel project and the completion of the I-95 interchange aren't happening anytime soon.
-The Mon-Fayette Expressway should see construction start next year.

As always, things are subject to change...

 https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/design-construction
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 04, 2021, 04:15:49 PM
So, it appears that the PA 441 bridge over the turnpike is being dropped this weekend.  With such a short gap in 6 lane sections at this bridge, does anyone know if the project will widen this small section.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 19, 2021, 08:56:43 PM
Looks like Scranton bypass design work is resuming.  There is one mistake in the article though: the speed limit on I-81 is 55 MPH for most of the bypassed roadway.

https://www.paturnpike.com/news/details/2021/12/17/pa-turnpike-announces-design-restart-for-scranton-beltway-project
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 21, 2021, 08:43:58 AM
PennDOT - District 6 News: U.S. 422, North Gulph Road Traffic Stoppages Wednesday for PA Turnpike Construction in Chester, Montgomery Counties (http://www.penndot.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=7257)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on January 01, 2022, 10:58:56 PM
The PTC has a few ideas to try to reduce the burden of unpaid tolls, including giving those without credit cards the option to pay their Toll-By-Plate bill or add funds to EZ-Pass accounts at convenience stores:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/pa-turnpike-officials-say-they-have-plans-to-reduce-unpaid-tolls-which-hit-105m-last-year.html



Also, I wouldn't mind seeing information from the Massachusetts Turnpike, the New York State Thruway Authority, and the Florida's Turnpike Enterprise concerning leakage from cashless tolling, especially considering the Mass Pike has been fully cashless for some time now, and the FTE has had cashless tolling on parts of their system for years as well (I believe most of their system is now cashless).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 02, 2022, 01:50:33 AM
The PTC has a few ideas to try to reduce the burden of unpaid tolls, including giving those without credit cards the option to pay their Toll-By-Plate bill or add funds to EZ-Pass accounts at convenience stores:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/pa-turnpike-officials-say-they-have-plans-to-reduce-unpaid-tolls-which-hit-105m-last-year.html

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing information from the Massachusetts Turnpike, the New York State Thruway Authority, and the Florida's Turnpike Enterprise concerning leakage from cashless tolling, especially considering the Mass Pike has been fully cashless for some time now, and the FTE has had cashless tolling on parts of their system for years as well (I believe most of their system is now cashless).

Mentioned in the article was a claim that NJ drivers account for about half of the unpaid tolls from out-of-state vehicles, which seems to be a surprising claim being so many NJ residents have EZ Passes, and to get to the PA Tpk almost always requires going over a bridge where EZ Pass would be much more convenient than paying cash, or going out of the way to hit a free bridge.

EZ Pass on the NJ Tpk is about 89.5% of all transactions. For commerical vehicles, it's much higher...over 95% of CMVs use EZ Pass.  I tried looking up EZ Pass usage on the DRPA and DRJTBC bridges, but those agencies don't appear to publish those figures.

That all said, the PTC never really does hint at what percentage of unpaid tolls are from out of state motorists. It may be the overwhelming majority of unpaid tolls are from their own state's drivers.  While NJ residents may be half of the overall out-of-state non-payers, the "get" as they mentioned they're trying to fight for may be smaller than what they're alluding to.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 02, 2022, 05:20:01 AM
PennDOT should help them a little bit by forcing License Plates to be double checked during inspection to see it they've been 'altered' and fail the car till it's replaced.  I've seen TONS of plates locally that have serious damage, including a few where about 95% of the reflective coating/paint is completely gone on the plate.  Most of the time, there's no way that isn't intentional, especially when the car looks completely brand new!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on January 02, 2022, 01:19:15 PM
The PTC has a few ideas to try to reduce the burden of unpaid tolls, including giving those without credit cards the option to pay their Toll-By-Plate bill or add funds to EZ-Pass accounts at convenience stores:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/pa-turnpike-officials-say-they-have-plans-to-reduce-unpaid-tolls-which-hit-105m-last-year.html

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing information from the Massachusetts Turnpike, the New York State Thruway Authority, and the Florida's Turnpike Enterprise concerning leakage from cashless tolling, especially considering the Mass Pike has been fully cashless for some time now, and the FTE has had cashless tolling on parts of their system for years as well (I believe most of their system is now cashless).

Mentioned in the article was a claim that NJ drivers account for about half of the unpaid tolls from out-of-state vehicles, which seems to be a surprising claim being so many NJ residents have EZ Passes, and to get to the PA Tpk almost always requires going over a bridge where EZ Pass would be much more convenient than paying cash, or going out of the way to hit a free bridge.

EZ Pass on the NJ Tpk is about 89.5% of all transactions. For commerical vehicles, it's much higher...over 95% of CMVs use EZ Pass.  I tried looking up EZ Pass usage on the DRPA and DRJTBC bridges, but those agencies don't appear to publish those figures.

That all said, the PTC never really does hint at what percentage of unpaid tolls are from out of state motorists. It may be the overwhelming majority of unpaid tolls are from their own state's drivers.  While NJ residents may be half of the overall out-of-state non-payers, the "get" as they mentioned they're trying to fight for may be smaller than what they're alluding to.

That number makes sense, as NJ shares a border with PA so it makes sense that a decent number of people would come from NJ. I agree that most of the unpaid tolls are from PA residents though, because like NY, it's pretty easy to "alter" the plates to make them impossible to read. NJ's move to the all digital plates in 2016 made that a lot harder.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 02, 2022, 02:07:42 PM
PennDOT should help them a little bit by forcing License Plates to be double checked during inspection to see it they've been 'altered' and fail the car till it's replaced.  I've seen TONS of plates locally that have serious damage, including a few where about 95% of the reflective coating/paint is completely gone on the plate.  Most of the time, there's no way that isn't intentional, especially when the car looks completely brand new!

This is key.  The standard replacement plates are free - all you need is a signature from a police officer or mechanic. Unfortunately, you have to pay the full fee for a new specialty plate or vanity plate, which makes little sense.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on January 02, 2022, 02:48:43 PM
PennDOT should help them a little bit by forcing License Plates to be double checked during inspection to see it they've been 'altered' and fail the car till it's replaced.  I've seen TONS of plates locally that have serious damage, including a few where about 95% of the reflective coating/paint is completely gone on the plate.  Most of the time, there's no way that isn't intentional, especially when the car looks completely brand new!

This is key.  The standard replacement plates are free - all you need is a signature from a police officer or mechanic. Unfortunately, you have to pay the full fee for a new specialty plate or vanity plate, which makes little sense.

It's a bit surprising this isn't done already. I mean, it would be the easiest part of the inspection! In addition, there's been talk (especially by the PTC) of requiring front plates, as generally front plates can't be covered up like rear plates can be (bike racks and such).

As far as paying to replace specialty and vanity plates, it might not make sense to us, but it makes cents to PennDOT!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 02, 2022, 04:30:48 PM
When PA replaces the standard plates for free, are those replacements with the same number or with a new number?  Because if it's with a new number, they can just grab whatever's on hand.  If it's the same number, then I have no explanation other than "because they want money", as a new plate would need to be custom fabricated regardless.

Meanwhile in NY, all replacements require paying the full fee, even if the plate is unreadable to the point where you risk a ticket (there's an exception for plates suffering from a specific type of sheeting failure caused by a defect in the manufacturing process by 3M, but mine didn't qualify even though they peeled and faded early).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 02, 2022, 08:17:14 PM
When PA replaces the standard plates for free, are those replacements with the same number or with a new number?  Because if it's with a new number, they can just grab whatever's on hand.  If it's the same number, then I have no explanation other than "because they want money", as a new plate would need to be custom fabricated regardless.

Meanwhile in NY, all replacements require paying the full fee, even if the plate is unreadable to the point where you risk a ticket (there's an exception for plates suffering from a specific type of sheeting failure caused by a defect in the manufacturing process by 3M, but mine didn't qualify even though they peeled and faded early).

It's a new number.  It's the same with the specialty plates - not only do you have to pay the full fee but you also can't keep your existing number unless you pay an extra $100 for a vanity plate (strangely, you can replicate your existing number as a vanity plate).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 11, 2022, 07:51:28 PM
Looks like the Turnpike is going to open bids for cashless tolling gantries on the NE Extension between the Lehigh Tunnel and just south of Lansdale.  No other tolling projects are listed yet, so this would not include the mainline Turnpike in the Philly area yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 25, 2022, 12:21:27 PM
Looks like the Turnpike is going to open bids for cashless tolling gantries on the NE Extension between the Lehigh Tunnel and just south of Lansdale.  No other tolling projects are listed yet, so this would not include the mainline Turnpike in the Philly area yet.

Now there is a bid advertisement for gantries on the Mainline turnpike between Reading (US 222) and Mid-County (but not east of there, strangely)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on February 28, 2022, 12:30:26 AM
Any idea why they've left some of the manual toll lanes open at the Mid-County interchange when they already have ORT lanes built there? Seems like they should just close access to the manual lanes and let all the traffic flow thru the existing ORT lanes and be done with it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on February 28, 2022, 08:36:44 AM
They were all closed for a period of time when the ORT lanes were re-striped to one lane from I-276, and the other for southbound I-476 traffic... I'm guessing it caused too much of a backup, as the striping was reverted (and signage updated again). The old entry lanes are also still in use, guessing again for excess throughput.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 28, 2022, 09:16:17 AM
They were all closed for a period of time when the ORT lanes were re-striped to one lane from I-276, and the other for southbound I-476 traffic... I'm guessing it caused too much of a backup, as the striping was reverted (and signage updated again). The old entry lanes are also still in use, guessing again for excess throughput.

I think this was the issue.  The old setup had four lanes going into the tolls, so cutting that in half was not good for traffic flow.  I would hope the ORT project would demolish the inside toll booths and expand the gantries to cover 3-4 lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on February 28, 2022, 10:15:12 AM
Looks like the Turnpike is going to open bids for cashless tolling gantries on the NE Extension between the Lehigh Tunnel and just south of Lansdale.  No other tolling projects are listed yet, so this would not include the mainline Turnpike in the Philly area yet.

Now there is a bid advertisement for gantries on the Mainline turnpike between Reading (US 222) and Mid-County (but not east of there, strangely)

There is a bid advertised now for Norristown-Bensalem. Anything east of there is effectively already ORT (the Neshaminy toll booths will need to be eliminated, but there are ORT lanes there already).

With this, there are projects underway for ORT gantries from Reading eastward on the mainline, and from Mid-County to Mahoning Valley on the NE Extension.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 16, 2022, 09:56:32 AM
Looks like bids are out for the next reconstruction project between MM 126 and 130 (east of the Allegheny Tunnel).  I know they already put in drain boxes to the right of the EB roadway (likely for a new alignment).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 16, 2022, 03:25:59 PM
When do you think work will commenced.  I was just last night reading the 2022 capital plan.  Noted the no substantial work  between  Irwin and Oakmont.  But a ramp up of 276/95 phase 2 which seems to be budgeted in 2 parts, also see the ramp up of the Allegheny tunnel and Scranton beltway.  But I could not find any line items for the Mon Fayette work that is supposed to start in June.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 16, 2022, 03:28:26 PM
When do you think work will commenced.  I was just last night reading the 2022 capital plan.  Noted the no substantial work  between  Irwin and Oakmont.  But a ramp up of 276/95 phase 2 which seems to be budgeted in 2 parts, also see the ramp up of the Allegheny tunnel and Scranton beltway.  But I could not find any line items for the Mon Fayette work that is supposed to start in June.

The project website says construction will start this year, though the segment cited is longer than the bid details.

BTW, that Capital Plan is already outdated.  Note they do not have the MP 324-326 widening that began recently (the plan shows barely any expenditures).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 16, 2022, 11:56:30 PM
When do you think work will commenced.  I was just last night reading the 2022 capital plan.  Noted the no substantial work  between  Irwin and Oakmont.  But a ramp up of 276/95 phase 2 which seems to be budgeted in 2 parts, also see the ramp up of the Allegheny tunnel and Scranton beltway.  But I could not find any line items for the Mon Fayette work that is supposed to start in June.

The project website says construction will start this year, though the segment cited is longer than the bid details.

BTW, that Capital Plan is already outdated.  Note they do not have the MP 324-326 widening that began recently (the plan shows barely any expenditures).

MP 130-134 will follow the MP 126-130 project. It's all listed as one in the Capital Plan. This also means that the church steps will disappear forever later this year.

Also, I noticed that the Beaver Valley Bridge replacement is posted for "constructability review". Such also occurred for the MP 126-130 project a few months back which leads me to believe that the Beaver River Bridge will go to bid later this year.

The Mon-Fayette and Southern Beltway projects are not listed in the Capital Plan as they are funded from portions of gas tax and registration fee revenues dedicated to the PTC for the purpose of building those roads and not from toll revenue which funds the Capital Plan.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 17, 2022, 09:12:06 AM
Is there another bid listing site that would show Mon Fayette bid activity?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 18, 2022, 08:52:43 AM
Is there another bid listing site that would show Mon Fayette bid activity?

No, bids for Mon-Fayette and Southern Beltway projects will still show up on the PTC's bid portal.

If you're looking for something like the Capital Plan for the Mon-Fayette Expressway and Southern Beltway, I'm not sure where that is, if it's on the PTC's site at all. We're pretty much reliant on what's listed on the project pages listed under Design & Construction on the PTC's site.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 18, 2022, 01:54:43 PM
My curiosity is in that the first contract for the Month Fayette is to start work in July and I wanted to see if it was even out for bidding yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on April 01, 2022, 12:17:48 PM
The PTC site has been updated to show that the Beaver River Bridge replacement and the reconstruction of MP 312-316 will go to construction next year.

Beaver River Bridge: https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction
MP 312-316: https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/milepost-312-316-reconstruction


Also, it's possible that I-95 Interchange Project Section A (I-276 widening around the Bensalem interchange) could go to construction in 2023 as well. The page isn't very clear on this though.

https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/i-95-interchange-project/design-construction-details/section-a

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 01, 2022, 07:02:06 PM
The PTC site has been updated to show that the Beaver River Bridge replacement and the reconstruction of MP 312-316 will go to construction next year.

Beaver River Bridge: https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction

The project includes reconfiguring the I-76/PA 18 interchange into a folded diamond. I'm not sure if this was already planned as this is in the toll-free section of the Turnpike or if it's a result of the conversion to AET.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 01, 2022, 07:41:55 PM
The PTC site has been updated to show that the Beaver River Bridge replacement and the reconstruction of MP 312-316 will go to construction next year.

Beaver River Bridge: https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction

The project includes reconfiguring the I-76/PA 18 interchange into a folded diamond. I'm not sure if this was already planned as this is in the toll-free section of the Turnpike or if it's a result of the conversion to AET.

It sounds like a future I-76/PA 18 graph connection in Travel Mapping is coming.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on April 01, 2022, 07:56:24 PM
The PTC site has been updated to show that the Beaver River Bridge replacement and the reconstruction of MP 312-316 will go to construction next year.

Beaver River Bridge: https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction

The project includes reconfiguring the I-76/PA 18 interchange into a folded diamond. I'm not sure if this was already planned as this is in the toll-free section of the Turnpike or if it's a result of the conversion to AET.

A continuation of the "widen to 3 lanes each way" long term project, picking up east of the interchange with I-376. The already-completed part of this phase has seen plural RR and roadway bridges over the Turnpike replaced. The trumpet bridge over PA-18 was in such bad shape it was replaced with a temporary one 8 years ago, so it seems the PA-18 interchange reconfiguration has been in the works for quite some time.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on April 01, 2022, 08:08:56 PM
Also, it's possible that I-95 Interchange Project Section A (I-276 widening around the Bensalem interchange) could go to construction in 2023 as well. The page isn't very clear on this though.

https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/i-95-interchange-project/design-construction-details/section-a

"Construction is anticipated in 2023.ng from West of Street Road to Richlieu Road " says the page's not very clear "sentence" that certainly seems to be an incomplete edit.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 01, 2022, 08:23:10 PM
Once the Beaver River bridge is complete, I think you will see an effort to leap frog Beaver to Cranberry over the Monroeville/Plum section, I hope not.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on April 01, 2022, 11:07:47 PM
Also, it's possible that I-95 Interchange Project Section A (I-276 widening around the Bensalem interchange) could go to construction in 2023 as well. The page isn't very clear on this though.

https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/i-95-interchange-project/design-construction-details/section-a

"Construction is anticipated in 2023.ng from West of Street Road to Richlieu Road " says the page's not very clear "sentence" that certainly seems to be an incomplete edit.

I was referring to the top of the page having "Construction planned when funding is identified", as stated for Sections C, D30, D40, and E on those respective pages, as well as that last sentence down at the bottom. A better edit would say "Construction anticipated in 2023" up at the top of the page, with further details below.

Once the Beaver River bridge is complete, I think you will see an effort to leap frog Beaver to Cranberry over the Monroeville/Plum section, I hope not.

I would certainly hope not as well. The Allegheny Valley to Irwin stretch has more traffic, and therefore generates more toll revenue, especially considering Beaver Valley to Cranberry is a free ride.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on April 07, 2022, 11:00:48 AM
The PTC's Statewide Total Reconstruction Initiative map has been updated.

https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/traveling-resources/total-recon-map-march-2022.pdf?sfvrsn=d9cf9a14_11


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on April 07, 2022, 04:31:46 PM
The PTC's Statewide Total Reconstruction Initiative map has been updated.

https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/traveling-resources/total-recon-map-march-2022.pdf?sfvrsn=d9cf9a14_11

Re#5 -  I guess I have to take their word for it, but I don't see how that 2 miles (including the PA-8 interchange) was totally reconstructed.   It seems to have retained the over/underpasses, is the same narrow footprint, and I don't recall seeing any major construction around that time.   I can easily be wrong, but it sounds like a resurfacing exaggerated to "full reconstruction".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on April 08, 2022, 12:51:57 AM
The PTC's Statewide Total Reconstruction Initiative map has been updated.

https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/traveling-resources/total-recon-map-march-2022.pdf?sfvrsn=d9cf9a14_11

Re#5 -  I guess I have to take their word for it, but I don't see how that 2 miles (including the PA-8 interchange) was totally reconstructed.   It seems to have retained the over/underpasses, is the same narrow footprint, and I don't recall seeing any major construction around that time.   I can easily be wrong, but it sounds like a resurfacing exaggerated to "full reconstruction".

Wasn't there a time when "total reconstruction" didn't also mean "oh yea; maybe we should make it wider while we're here". Many (most?) of the sections listed as being done in the 20-aughts are currently a total of 4 (or 5) lanes, including the one mile section north of PA-8 up to the bridge that carries Hardt Road over the turnpike. South of PA-8 at milepost 39.2 ties into the 6 lane portion listed as #6 (which "will be completed by 2019"). The previously-mentioned 4 lane section between Beaver Falls (PA-18) (MP14) and Cranberry (I-79) (MP28) isn't shown as a past, present, or future project on the updated Total Reconstruction graphic.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 08, 2022, 09:10:42 AM
The PTC's Statewide Total Reconstruction Initiative map has been updated.

https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/traveling-resources/total-recon-map-march-2022.pdf?sfvrsn=d9cf9a14_11

Re#5 -  I guess I have to take their word for it, but I don't see how that 2 miles (including the PA-8 interchange) was totally reconstructed.   It seems to have retained the over/underpasses, is the same narrow footprint, and I don't recall seeing any major construction around that time.   I can easily be wrong, but it sounds like a resurfacing exaggerated to "full reconstruction".

Wasn't there a time when "total reconstruction" didn't also mean "oh yea; maybe we should make it wider while we're here". Many (most?) of the sections listed as being done in the 20-aughts are currently a total of 4 (or 5) lanes, including the one mile section north of PA-8 up to the bridge that carries Hardt Road over the turnpike. South of PA-8 at milepost 39.2 ties into the 6 lane portion listed as #6 (which "will be completed by 2019"). The previously-mentioned 4 lane section between Beaver Falls (PA-18) (MP14) and Cranberry (I-79) (MP28) isn't shown as a past, present, or future project on the updated Total Reconstruction graphic.

Yes. When the very first section was rebuilt around Donegal circa 2000, I think it got a climbing lane but otherwise is 2+2 lanes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on April 08, 2022, 09:21:59 AM
The PTC's Statewide Total Reconstruction Initiative map has been updated.

https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/traveling-resources/total-recon-map-march-2022.pdf?sfvrsn=d9cf9a14_11

Re#5 -  I guess I have to take their word for it, but I don't see how that 2 miles (including the PA-8 interchange) was totally reconstructed.   It seems to have retained the over/underpasses, is the same narrow footprint, and I don't recall seeing any major construction around that time.   I can easily be wrong, but it sounds like a resurfacing exaggerated to "full reconstruction".

Wasn't there a time when "total reconstruction" didn't also mean "oh yea; maybe we should make it wider while we're here". Many (most?) of the sections listed as being done in the 20-aughts are currently a total of 4 (or 5) lanes, including the one mile section north of PA-8 up to the bridge that carries Hardt Road over the turnpike. South of PA-8 at milepost 39.2 ties into the 6 lane portion listed as #6 (which "will be completed by 2019"). The previously-mentioned 4 lane section between Beaver Falls (PA-18) (MP14) and Cranberry (I-79) (MP28) isn't shown as a past, present, or future project on the updated Total Reconstruction graphic.

Yes. When the very first section was rebuilt around Donegal circa 2000, I think it got a climbing lane but otherwise is 2+2 lanes.

Unfortunately nearly all of the reconstruction projects that occurred before widening was added to the scope were in the overlap with I-70, which has hilly terrain and heavy truck traffic.  They did create a continuous 15 mile EB climbing lane around Donegal, but the section east of Somerset desperately needs 6 lanes throughout.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on April 08, 2022, 11:11:59 AM
Some things I noticed looking through the list:

-The immediate area of the Pittsburgh interchange (MP 56-57) has been split into its own project, and will cost nearly $300 million. Sounds like a major redesign of the interchange will result! For comparison, the Irwin interchange (MP 66-67) will only cost $61 million.

-The project immediately west of there (MP 53-56) completes design in 2026, as does the project immediately west of Irwin (MP 62-66). At least we're starting to get a timeframe for parts of that Allegheny Valley to Irwin stretch to go to construction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 09, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
-The immediate area of the Pittsburgh interchange (MP 56-57) has been split into its own project, and will cost nearly $300 million. Sounds like a major redesign of the interchange will result! For comparison, the Irwin interchange (MP 66-67) will only cost $61 million.

A reconfiguration of the Pittsburgh interchange would be nice. I-376's tie-in here is sort of an afterthought. Unfortunately, with the area being very heavily built-up, a big chunk of that $300M is likely to go to ROW costs.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on April 09, 2022, 11:37:16 PM
-The immediate area of the Pittsburgh interchange (MP 56-57) has been split into its own project, and will cost nearly $300 million. Sounds like a major redesign of the interchange will result! For comparison, the Irwin interchange (MP 66-67) will only cost $61 million.

A reconfiguration of the Pittsburgh interchange would be nice. I-376's tie-in here is sort of an afterthought. Unfortunately, with the area being very heavily built-up, a big chunk of that $300M is likely to go to ROW costs.

I-376's tie-in was very much an afterthought (and a pretty imaginative one IMO), being built more than a decade after the original standard double-trumpet interchange with US-22. There's a healthy chunk of unused land inside the ramps that I hope is already owned by either the Turnpike or PennDOT. I assume the highest volume traffic movement is westbound Turnpike to westbound I-376 and vice versa, which could be handled by a pair of nice long (expensive) flyover ramps over the vacant areas. All the other connections could then be made mostly in the existing footprint underneath the new flyovers, with the toll plaza of course no longer being needed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on April 10, 2022, 12:58:51 PM
-The immediate area of the Pittsburgh interchange (MP 56-57) has been split into its own project, and will cost nearly $300 million. Sounds like a major redesign of the interchange will result! For comparison, the Irwin interchange (MP 66-67) will only cost $61 million.

A reconfiguration of the Pittsburgh interchange would be nice. I-376's tie-in here is sort of an afterthought. Unfortunately, with the area being very heavily built-up, a big chunk of that $300M is likely to go to ROW costs.

I-376's tie-in was very much an afterthought (and a pretty imaginative one IMO), being built more than a decade after the original standard double-trumpet interchange with US-22. There's a healthy chunk of unused land inside the ramps that I hope is already owned by either the Turnpike or PennDOT. I assume the highest volume traffic movement is westbound Turnpike to westbound I-376 and vice versa, which could be handled by a pair of nice long (expensive) flyover ramps over the vacant areas. All the other connections could then be made mostly in the existing footprint underneath the new flyovers, with the toll plaza of course no longer being needed.

For traffic exiting the turnpike, I-76 WB to I-376 WB and reverse would be the heaviest, but I think the movements between I-376 and US 22 east of the interchange likely have more traffic overall. That's part of what makes this complex - you can't really just do an interchange with the Turnpike and I-376 and have US 22/Business 22 be an afterthought.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on April 10, 2022, 09:35:32 PM
-The immediate area of the Pittsburgh interchange (MP 56-57) has been split into its own project, and will cost nearly $300 million. Sounds like a major redesign of the interchange will result! For comparison, the Irwin interchange (MP 66-67) will only cost $61 million.

A reconfiguration of the Pittsburgh interchange would be nice. I-376's tie-in here is sort of an afterthought. Unfortunately, with the area being very heavily built-up, a big chunk of that $300M is likely to go to ROW costs.

I-376's tie-in was very much an afterthought (and a pretty imaginative one IMO), being built more than a decade after the original standard double-trumpet interchange with US-22. There's a healthy chunk of unused land inside the ramps that I hope is already owned by either the Turnpike or PennDOT. I assume the highest volume traffic movement is westbound Turnpike to westbound I-376 and vice versa, which could be handled by a pair of nice long (expensive) flyover ramps over the vacant areas. All the other connections could then be made mostly in the existing footprint underneath the new flyovers, with the toll plaza of course no longer being needed.

For traffic exiting the turnpike, I-76 WB to I-376 WB and reverse would be the heaviest, but I think the movements between I-376 and US 22 east of the interchange likely have more traffic overall. That's part of what makes this complex - you can't really just do an interchange with the Turnpike and I-376 and have US 22/Business 22 be an afterthought.

Ideally the I-376 mainline would feed directly into US 22, with a more conventional interchange with the Turnpike, but this would have significant ROW requirements.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 19, 2022, 10:54:11 AM
I was on I-476 northbound last weekend, and nothing had changed in terms of how Exits 31A and 31B are signed.

On the NE Ext, the former EZ-Pass only ramp northbound at Exit 31 has now been signed as Exit 31A - PA 63 East - Kulpsville, and the advance BGS for the original Exit 31 is now Exit 31B - PA 63 West - Harleysville.  At the ramp to Exit 31B, the original BGS is there for just PA 63 - Harleysville / Kulpsville, but is labeled Exit 31B.  I wasn't using that exit, so I don't know if turns are restricted at the end of each ramp.
Unless the PTC revamped that cloverleaf ramp to bypass merging with the southbound exiting traffic, I don't believe such is the movement is restricted to PA 63 westbound.

In theory, the end of the Exit 31A ramp could now eliminate the left-turn movements for PA 63 westbound.

March 2022 GSV shows this signage. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2400573,-75.3410632,3a,75y,326.35h,78.84t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPpY6mQkKTlhlrA6hRJjw6n5L5M-hWAoTx9n99B!2e10!3e11!5s20180801T000000!7i7680!8i3840) 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on April 19, 2022, 05:59:30 PM
March 2022 GSV shows this signage. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2400573,-75.3410632,3a,75y,326.35h,78.84t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPpY6mQkKTlhlrA6hRJjw6n5L5M-hWAoTx9n99B!2e10!3e11!5s20180801T000000!7i7680!8i3840) 

Given the somewhat uniqueness of this situation, it may mean nothing, and maybe the fact it's now shown as two separate exits (well, an A/B situation), but I wonder if it's at all telling neither exit sign in that 2022 image has an exit name on it.... and if the exit names will be going away with the change (however gradual) to not just the current AET (as in, either EZ-Pass or Toll-By-Plate), but to eventual ORT. 
The nostalgic part of me kind of hopes that they'll mostly stick with the signed named BGS signs on the mainline & NE Extension in the future, but I wouldn't be surprised if they all get phased out over a period of time.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on April 19, 2022, 06:31:36 PM
March 2022 GSV shows this signage. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2400573,-75.3410632,3a,75y,326.35h,78.84t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPpY6mQkKTlhlrA6hRJjw6n5L5M-hWAoTx9n99B!2e10!3e11!5s20180801T000000!7i7680!8i3840) 

Given the somewhat uniqueness of this situation, it may mean nothing, and maybe the fact it's now shown as two separate exits (well, an A/B situation), but I wonder if it's at all telling neither exit sign in that 2022 image has an exit name on it.... and if the exit names will be going away with the change (however gradual) to not just the current AET (as in, either EZ-Pass or Toll-By-Plate), but to eventual ORT. 
The nostalgic part of me kind of hopes that they'll mostly stick with the signed named BGS signs on the mainline & NE Extension in the future, but I wouldn't be surprised if they all get phased out over a period of time.

The previous E-ZPass interchanges did not have names on the BGS when opened, so I imagine there might be some precedent to removing them systemwide.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 20, 2022, 02:14:18 PM
Given the somewhat uniqueness of this situation, it may mean nothing, and maybe the fact it's now shown as two separate exits (well, an A/B situation), but I wonder if it's at all telling neither exit sign in that 2022 image has an exit name on it.... and if the exit names will be going away with the change (however gradual) to not just the current AET (as in, either EZ-Pass or Toll-By-Plate), but to eventual ORT. 
The nostalgic part of me kind of hopes that they'll mostly stick with the signed named BGS signs on the mainline & NE Extension in the future, but I wouldn't be surprised if they all get phased out over a period of time.
The previous E-ZPass interchanges did not have names on the BGS when opened, so I imagine there might be some precedent to removing them systemwide.

On a similar note, I've also noticed that the "EXITS XX-XX" tab on the bottom of signage beyond the entry toll point has been starting to disappear with recent sign replacements (example from Breezewood - compare Sep 2019 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9889719,-78.2550556,3a,75y,243.48h,83.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0k-cXSXiyo5iaqiAoIVvUw!2e0!5s20190901T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) to Aug 2018 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9889872,-78.2550784,3a,75y,242.95h,83.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sL_lag7W_xSqCkxhSWW0EWw!2e0!5s20180601T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en)). I can understand these no longer being needed with toll tickets being a thing of the past and the rise of GPS, but the nostalgic part of me will miss those as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 24, 2022, 05:48:34 PM
Was just looking at the design and construction page and noted that the 124-135 is project was no longer listed.  Wonder what 8s up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on April 24, 2022, 09:09:46 PM
Was just looking at the design and construction page and noted that the 124-135 is project was no longer listed.  Wonder what 8s up.

Looking at the graphic linked in reply #2773 above, I see 3 different projects in that mileage range.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 24, 2022, 09:27:41 PM
It would be items 23 and 25 on that graphic, a week or so ago, those projects were a single line item over at the official PA Turnpike, design and construction  section, it had been there for years, now it is completely gone.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on April 24, 2022, 11:27:05 PM
Was just looking at the design and construction page and noted that the 124-135 is project was no longer listed.  Wonder what 8s up.

Looking at the graphic linked in reply #2773 above, I see 3 different projects in that mileage range.
It would be items 23 and 25 on that graphic, a week or so ago, those projects were a single line item over at the official PA Turnpike, design and construction  section, it had been there for years, now it is completely gone.

Hmmm. There's a bid advertised for the reconstruction and widening of MP 126-130.5 which opens on April 27.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 03, 2022, 11:27:54 PM
The PTC has approved their 2022-2023 budget and capital plan, holding the budget to a modest increase and capital plan spending to about the same level, but with an increased share going to the reconstruction and widening projects.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2022/05/03/pennsylvania-turnpike-annual-budget-stable-spending-pandemic-recovery/stories/202205030129
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: nsw on May 07, 2022, 09:18:18 PM
Maybe they can actually make I-70 a freeway by using that money to help build an I-70 interchange with I-76/Pennsylvania Turnpike(with no signals or shopping centers off it)
there is one, but also with 119 and 66. its in new stanton
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on May 07, 2022, 09:26:24 PM
Maybe they can actually make I-70 a freeway by using that money to help build an I-70 interchange with I-76/Pennsylvania Turnpike(with no signals or shopping centers off it)


Yeah I would not even think about making a post saying that today.  I know the situation much better and differently now.  Something called maturity is important.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 20, 2022, 09:43:27 AM
The PTC's FY2023 Capital Plan has been posted.

Notable new listings for reconstruction projects:

-MP 9-12 reconstruction, between the New Castle (I-376) and Beaver Valley (PA 18) interchanges. The section west of here is at six lanes, and east of here is the upcoming Beaver River Bridge replacement.
-MP 38-40 reconstruction. This was reconstructed already about 15-20 years ago, but not widened. The sections immediately east and west of here are at six lanes.
-MP 134-138, MP 138-145, MP 145-150, MP 155-161 reconstruction. Together with the previously listed MP 124-134 and MP 149.5-155.5, this would cover the distance from the Allegheny Tunnel to Breezewood. With the tunnel replacement/bypass, completion of these projects would make the entire I-70/I-76 concurrency fully reconstructed (but not fully at six lanes).
-MP 180-186 is removed. Completion of the above projects west of Breezewood would mean this, along with the section west of here to the east end of the Abandoned PA Turnpike, would be the last remaining significant length (excluding tunnels) of original Turnpike pavement in use.
-MP 248-251 reconstruction, from Harrisburg East (I-283/PA 283) to the Swatara Creek bridge. The section west of here is at six lanes out to Harrisburg West (I-83).

My guess is that most, if not all, of these newly listed projects don't actually go to construction until the 2030s at the earliest.


https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/investor-relations/capital-plan/fy23-capital-plan.pdf?sfvrsn=fe252d1a_4
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 20, 2022, 12:07:43 PM
The PTC's FY2023 Capital Plan has been posted.

Notable new listings for reconstruction projects:

-MP 9-12 reconstruction, between the New Castle (I-376) and Beaver Valley (PA 18) interchanges. The section west of here is at six lanes, and east of here is the upcoming Beaver River Bridge replacement.
-MP 38-40 reconstruction. This was reconstructed already about 15-20 years ago, but not widened. The sections immediately east and west of here are at six lanes.
-MP 134-138, MP 138-145, MP 145-150, MP 155-161 reconstruction. Together with the previously listed MP 124-134 and MP 149.5-155.5, this would cover the distance from the Allegheny Tunnel to Breezewood. With the tunnel replacement/bypass, completion of these projects would make the entire I-70/I-76 concurrency fully reconstructed (but not fully at six lanes).
-MP 180-186 is removed. Completion of the above projects west of Breezewood would mean this, along with the section west of here to the east end of the Abandoned PA Turnpike, would be the last remaining significant length (excluding tunnels) of original Turnpike pavement in use.
-MP 248-251 reconstruction, from Harrisburg East (I-283/PA 283) to the Swatara Creek bridge. The section west of here is at six lanes out to Harrisburg West (I-83).

My guess is that most, if not all, of these newly listed projects don't actually go to construction until the 2030s at the earliest.


https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/investor-relations/capital-plan/fy23-capital-plan.pdf?sfvrsn=fe252d1a_4
 

The strange thing is there is barely any expenditure for MP 320-326, yet they just started a multi-year widening project for MP 324-326.  They did not split out the project in the budget.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 20, 2022, 12:28:41 PM
The PTC's FY2023 Capital Plan has been posted.

Notable new listings for reconstruction projects:

-MP 9-12 reconstruction, between the New Castle (I-376) and Beaver Valley (PA 18) interchanges. The section west of here is at six lanes, and east of here is the upcoming Beaver River Bridge replacement.
-MP 38-40 reconstruction. This was reconstructed already about 15-20 years ago, but not widened. The sections immediately east and west of here are at six lanes.
-MP 134-138, MP 138-145, MP 145-150, MP 155-161 reconstruction. Together with the previously listed MP 124-134 and MP 149.5-155.5, this would cover the distance from the Allegheny Tunnel to Breezewood. With the tunnel replacement/bypass, completion of these projects would make the entire I-70/I-76 concurrency fully reconstructed (but not fully at six lanes).
-MP 180-186 is removed. Completion of the above projects west of Breezewood would mean this, along with the section west of here to the east end of the Abandoned PA Turnpike, would be the last remaining significant length (excluding tunnels) of original Turnpike pavement in use.
-MP 248-251 reconstruction, from Harrisburg East (I-283/PA 283) to the Swatara Creek bridge. The section west of here is at six lanes out to Harrisburg West (I-83).

My guess is that most, if not all, of these newly listed projects don't actually go to construction until the 2030s at the earliest.


https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/investor-relations/capital-plan/fy23-capital-plan.pdf?sfvrsn=fe252d1a_4
 

The strange thing is there is barely any expenditure for MP 320-326, yet they just started a multi-year widening project for MP 324-326.  They did not split out the project in the budget.

Nor is there much funding listed for MP 320-326 in last year's plan. They got money from somewhere though, considering the project is underway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 20, 2022, 09:15:16 PM
Based on the dollar values assigned  to those projects, one would figure that is for design work.  However,  note the line item labeled: total recon systemwide.  See how the money allocated explodes going out 3-5 years?  I think that is the pot that these projects are funded from on an as ready to go basis.  I really can't see what else it would be for.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 10, 2022, 08:41:03 PM
PennDOT - District 6 News: Pennsylvania Turnpike to Restrict N. Gulph Road Next Week for Overhead Bridge Construction in Upper Merion Township (http://www.penndot.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=7590)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on July 20, 2022, 07:02:56 AM
In case you're wondering when the next toll increase will be announced...the decision on that has been delayed until August:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2022/07/19/pennsylvania-turnpike-board-reorganization-new-chairman-postpone-toll-hike/stories/202207180086


They say it's because of the PTC board reorganization, but announcing toll increases doesn't go well with news about increasing losses of toll revenue due to nonpayment of Toll by Plate bills, especially when "higher fees" is one of the reasons listed.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2022/07/18/pennsylvania-turnpike-unpaid-tolls-increase-penndot-more-drivers-higher-fees/stories/202207170045


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 21, 2022, 11:41:41 AM
In case you're wondering when the next toll increase will be announced...the decision on that has been delayed until August:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2022/07/19/pennsylvania-turnpike-board-reorganization-new-chairman-postpone-toll-hike/stories/202207180086


They say it's because of the PTC board reorganization, but announcing toll increases doesn't go well with news about increasing losses of toll revenue due to nonpayment of Toll by Plate bills, especially when "higher fees" is one of the reasons listed.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2022/07/18/pennsylvania-turnpike-unpaid-tolls-increase-penndot-more-drivers-higher-fees/stories/202207170045




From the looks of the photos, it seems the new Warrendale gantry is already up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on July 22, 2022, 06:29:13 AM
In case you're wondering when the next toll increase will be announced...the decision on that has been delayed until August:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2022/07/19/pennsylvania-turnpike-board-reorganization-new-chairman-postpone-toll-hike/stories/202207180086


They say it's because of the PTC board reorganization, but announcing toll increases doesn't go well with news about increasing losses of toll revenue due to nonpayment of Toll by Plate bills, especially when "higher fees" is one of the reasons listed.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2022/07/18/pennsylvania-turnpike-unpaid-tolls-increase-penndot-more-drivers-higher-fees/stories/202207170045




From the looks of the photos, it seems the new Warrendale gantry is already up.

Yes, they had the new gantry up (but not operational yet) when we passed through the area a few weeks ago. There was also a good amount of paving completed in the reconstruction area just west of there (MP 28-31).

Also, paving was in progress for the short realignments being constructed for the MP 102-109 reconstruction.

However, there weren't many signs of activity yet at the MP 126-131 reconstruction. Maybe some equipment staging but that's it. That project should start picking up soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 26, 2022, 11:02:40 AM
PennDOT - District 6 News: PA Turnpike to Close Kumry Road for Construction in Milford Township (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=7695)

This definitely should be related to the current widening on I-476 up to PA 663.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: bluecountry on August 02, 2022, 10:45:28 AM
Maybe they can actually make I-70 a freeway by using that money to help build an I-70 interchange with I-76/Pennsylvania Turnpike(with no signals or shopping centers off it)


Yeah I would not even think about making a post saying that today.  I know the situation much better and differently now.  Something called maturity is important.
Why is this just accepted and not top priority, fuck Bud Shuster.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on August 02, 2022, 08:11:49 PM
Another year, another toll increase. Of course they try to spin it by comparing the rate to a bunch of short distance toll roads. Other than the NJ Turnpike, you can’t spin this is the most expensive long distance road in the nation.

https://www.paturnpike.com/news/details/2022/08/02/pa-turnpike-commission-approves-5-toll-increase-for-2023
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on August 02, 2022, 10:48:54 PM
Sure, compared to how much it costs per mile to cross the George Washington Bridge vs. The cost per mile on the Penna Pike, the Pike will always be a waaaay better value.

And I-70 thru Breezewood has been a great idea for the past 50-some years as well!!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on August 11, 2022, 10:53:48 AM
Is it PennDOT or PTC that can't decide on what trailblazer to place on signs, since I see both the black letters on white background version and the white letters on green background at various spots around the state?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 16, 2022, 06:51:29 PM
Just wanted to mention that as a follower of the PA Turnpike website for improvements since 1996, I really dislike the recent format change.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tylert120 on August 23, 2022, 11:20:21 AM
The PA Turnpike exit for PIT Int'l (exit 10) forgot the -h on Pittsburgh  :-/

(https://i.ibb.co/g4F5v1p/IMG-2971.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHqSsvM)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 23, 2022, 09:33:34 PM
Looks like the total mainline construction from mp 12-14 and the Beaver River Bridge has a 10/5/22 bid opening.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on August 24, 2022, 02:48:59 AM
The PA Turnpike exit for PIT Int'l (exit 10) forgot the -h on Pittsburgh  :-/

(https://i.ibb.co/g4F5v1p/IMG-2971.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHqSsvM)

Somebody should get bitch slapped for that mistake. LOL!
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on August 24, 2022, 10:39:58 AM
The PA Turnpike exit for PIT Int'l (exit 10) forgot the -h on Pittsburgh  :-/

(https://i.ibb.co/g4F5v1p/IMG-2971.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHqSsvM)

Somebody should get bitch slapped for that mistake. LOL!

Back during the late 1800s and early 1900s, Pittsburg was the official spelling of the city's name, decided in part due to the fact that the 1816 city charter omitted the -h. This is most famously seen on the Honus Wagner baseball card from 1909.

However, the original, current, and proper spelling is with the -h. That sign should be changed ASAP.

Fun fact...the guy who named Pittsburgh, General John Forbes, was a Scotsman. He most likely pronounced Pittsburgh like he would (and we still) pronounce Edinburgh. So, have we been saying Pittsburgh incorrectly all this time?  :hmmm:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on August 24, 2022, 04:32:53 PM
The PA Turnpike exit for PIT Int'l (exit 10) forgot the -h on Pittsburgh  :-/

(https://i.ibb.co/g4F5v1p/IMG-2971.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHqSsvM)

Somebody should get bitch slapped for that mistake. LOL!

Back during the late 1800s and early 1900s, Pittsburg was the official spelling of the city's name, decided in part due to the fact that the 1816 city charter omitted the -h. This is most famously seen on the Honus Wagner baseball card from 1909.

However, the original, current, and proper spelling is with the -h. That sign should be changed ASAP.

Fun fact...the guy who named Pittsburgh, General John Forbes, was a Scotsman. He most likely pronounced Pittsburgh like he would (and we still) pronounce Edinburgh. So, have we been saying Pittsburgh incorrectly all this time?  :hmmm:

Every once in a while, I see Cincinnati spelled with Two "T"s (Cincinnatti). 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 09, 2022, 10:39:57 AM
I saw this on the 511PA site this morning:

Quote
PA Turnpike Planned Detour - The Northeast Extension (Interstate 476) will be closed between the Quakertown Exit 44 and the Lehigh Valley Exit 56, Sat. Sept. 10th at 11:30PM through Sun. Sept. 11th at 6:30AM.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on September 10, 2022, 07:09:35 AM
An audit of the PTC was recently completed by PA's Auditor General which expresses concern over the PTC's debt level, the sustainability of annual toll increases, and the amount of unpaid Toll-By-Plate invoices:

https://www.penncapital-star.com/blog/audit-recommends-lawmakers-act-to-ease-pa-turnpikes-financial-squeeze-on-motorists/

https://www.paauditor.gov/Media/Default/Reports/Pennsylvania%20Turnpike%20Commission%20-%20Audit%20Period%20June%201,%202018%20to%20June%2013,%202022.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on September 10, 2022, 11:26:11 AM
Is this going to be (or is it already) a common thing?
https://goo.gl/maps/HBx8BAxXpWxLFuLK8
The Combination PA Turnpike and 276 shield that is.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 10, 2022, 11:41:45 AM
Is this going to be (or is it already) a common thing?
https://goo.gl/maps/HBx8BAxXpWxLFuLK8
The Combination PA Turnpike and 276 shield that is.

Maybe because I have seen that error from time to time over the years.  I did find this done correctly on PA 132 (https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10217477892939733&set=a.10216218268569911). 

They did fix the PA 476 shields on I-78 from 2016 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5854287,-75.5991416,3a,75y,41.17h,107.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWkHrH6Egf6BGUozeaUep-w!2e0!5s20160801T000000!7i13312!8i6656) a while ago (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5854769,-75.5992264,3a,75y,41.17h,107.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sEcHPi_JGNczNpkFaq-MG1A!2e0!5s20220701T000000!7i16384!8i8192).  (I feel embarrassed that I never photographed those signs for whatever reason.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 10, 2022, 05:04:18 PM
An audit of the PTC was recently completed by PA's Auditor General which expresses concern over the PTC's debt level, the sustainability of annual toll increases, and the amount of unpaid Toll-By-Plate invoices:

https://www.penncapital-star.com/blog/audit-recommends-lawmakers-act-to-ease-pa-turnpikes-financial-squeeze-on-motorists/

https://www.paauditor.gov/Media/Default/Reports/Pennsylvania%20Turnpike%20Commission%20-%20Audit%20Period%20June%201,%202018%20to%20June%2013,%202022.pdf

The right thing to do is add a 50 cent surcharge to every mass transit ticket sold in the state to go to the turnpike commission.  After all, did not most of that annual $450 million in reality go to shore up PAT and SEPTA pension shortfalls?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on September 10, 2022, 05:52:41 PM
Is this going to be (or is it already) a common thing?
https://goo.gl/maps/HBx8BAxXpWxLFuLK8
The Combination PA Turnpike and 276 shield that is.

It is a common error that I've been noticing more and more in recent years. The same goes for 76 and 476 elsewhere; never seen any photos of a PA Turnpike 376 shield, so I'm not sure if that mistake has ever been made. It's definitely not a new standard practice by either the PTC or PennDOT; otherwise, it would be universal on new signs, which it definitely isn't.

In a similar vein of one-off mistakes, I noticed one sign (https://goo.gl/maps/CA3DpYMXbowGxF489) put up a few years ago that uses the Turnpike shield alongside the Interstate shield on the mainline (and not just on intersecting roads). I was hoping this would become the PTC's new standard as the NJTA already does on the NJTP (https://goo.gl/maps/L7NxMvL1BHU7VQyq6), but every new sign inside the (former) ticket system that I've seen still omits the Turnpike shield, so it was probably just a fluke.

The "PA Turnpike [route]" combo shield is standard on the non-mainline state route toll roads that the PTC operates: PA Turnpike 43, 66, and 576, all in the Pittsburgh area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on September 10, 2022, 11:18:50 PM
An audit of the PTC was recently completed by PA's Auditor General which expresses concern over the PTC's debt level, the sustainability of annual toll increases, and the amount of unpaid Toll-By-Plate invoices:

https://www.penncapital-star.com/blog/audit-recommends-lawmakers-act-to-ease-pa-turnpikes-financial-squeeze-on-motorists/

https://www.paauditor.gov/Media/Default/Reports/Pennsylvania%20Turnpike%20Commission%20-%20Audit%20Period%20June%201,%202018%20to%20June%2013,%202022.pdf
Bad Debt of $104 million and something like 8.3% of operating revenue.  Wow.  What other industry sees bad debt that high?

I also like that the auditor general is like “you could stop letting employees travel for free on non-Turnpike business”  and, while it probably is a small portion of overall trips, the Turnpike Commission is like “eh, no”

I’m totally not bitter because I pay them $1.70 for 5 miles each way each day, but it beats the hell out of I-83 through Harrisburg and saves me mileage.  I can’t imagine paying the $3.90 non EZP rate.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: rickmastfan67 on September 11, 2022, 02:39:47 AM
Is this going to be (or is it already) a common thing?
https://goo.gl/maps/HBx8BAxXpWxLFuLK8
The Combination PA Turnpike and 276 shield that is.

It is a common error that I've been noticing more and more in recent years. The same goes for 76 and 476 elsewhere; never seen any photos of a PA Turnpike 376 shield, so I'm not sure if that mistake has ever been made. It's definitely not a new standard practice by either the PTC or PennDOT; otherwise, it would be universal on new signs, which it definitely isn't.

In a similar vein of one-off mistakes, I noticed one sign (https://goo.gl/maps/CA3DpYMXbowGxF489) put up a few years ago that uses the Turnpike shield alongside the Interstate shield on the mainline (and not just on intersecting roads). I was hoping this would become the PTC's new standard as the NJTA already does on the NJTP (https://goo.gl/maps/L7NxMvL1BHU7VQyq6), but every new sign inside the (former) ticket system that I've seen still omits the Turnpike shield, so it was probably just a fluke.

The "PA Turnpike [route]" combo shield is standard on the non-mainline state route toll roads that the PTC operates: PA Turnpike 43, 66, and 576, all in the Pittsburgh area.

Don't forget about the 'reverse' error of an Interstate shield with the word 'Turnpike' where the 'state name' is suppose to be. ;)
https://goo.gl/maps/wUmFykWEg1GQJjjPA
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 11, 2022, 11:56:08 AM
Do they mention that they were paying toll collectors $60 million a year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 03, 2022, 11:33:20 AM
PennDOT - District 6 News: PA Turnpike to Close Thomas Road for Construction in Tredyffrin Township (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=7864)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 07, 2022, 09:04:37 AM
Pretty long detour this weekend on the NE Extension

Pennsylvania Turnpike Plans Weekend Closure between Lehigh Valley and Mahoning Valley Interchanges (https://www.paturnpike.com/news/details/2022/10/06/pennsylvania-turnpike-plans-weekend-closure-between-lehigh-valley-and-mahoning-valley-interchanges)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 07, 2022, 09:37:22 AM
Bids were received for the Beaver River Bridge reconstruction and widening this past Wednesday.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on October 12, 2022, 03:22:16 AM
So... seen a lot about turnpike widening in various locales... but nothing about where it seems to really need it:  I-276 (at least from I-476 east to PA 611).  Have they given up on improving that section because of ROW constraints?  Or are there local factors pushing against it?  Despite it being among the wider parts of the system, its also arguably the most congested (haven't seen stats, but its pretty routine during the morning and evening rush hours).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on October 12, 2022, 08:50:39 AM
So... seen a lot about turnpike widening in various locales... but nothing about where it seems to really need it:  I-276 (at least from I-476 east to PA 611).  Have they given up on improving that section because of ROW constraints?  Or are there local factors pushing against it?  Despite it being among the wider parts of the system, its also arguably the most congested (haven't seen stats, but its pretty routine during the morning and evening rush hours).

https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/design-construction shows no projects in that area.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 12, 2022, 09:18:48 AM
So... seen a lot about turnpike widening in various locales... but nothing about where it seems to really need it:  I-276 (at least from I-476 east to PA 611).  Have they given up on improving that section because of ROW constraints?  Or are there local factors pushing against it?  Despite it being among the wider parts of the system, its also arguably the most congested (haven't seen stats, but its pretty routine during the morning and evening rush hours).

The biggest issues seem to be WB between PA 611 and PA 309 (just volume) and EB from east of the I-76 split to the NE Extension (due to the heavy merge of I-476 NB traffic) and then again to PA 309.  Not sure what would fix the WB issue, but the EB issue could be improved with a longer acceleration lane, if not a fourth lane to PA 309.  The rest of the Turnpike seems to flow well during rush hour, despite only 3 lanes.

Speaking of this area, work has started on toll gantries.  I saw a few equipment buildings in various construction phases around Downingtown and Reading.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 12, 2022, 10:50:54 AM
So... seen a lot about turnpike widening in various locales... but nothing about where it seems to really need it:  I-276 (at least from I-476 east to PA 611).  Have they given up on improving that section because of ROW constraints?  Or are there local factors pushing against it?  Despite it being among the wider parts of the system, its also arguably the most congested (haven't seen stats, but its pretty routine during the morning and evening rush hours).

The PA Turnpike tends to spread out their projects so no one area has all the work zones, allowing construction workers throughout the state to have work opportunities close to their home locale. This winds up with the situation we see: Rural areas that rarely experience congestion getting widened, while areas that have significant congestion just sitting there with 2 lanes still.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on October 13, 2022, 12:20:44 AM
So... seen a lot about turnpike widening in various locales... but nothing about where it seems to really need it:  I-276 (at least from I-476 east to PA 611).  Have they given up on improving that section because of ROW constraints?  Or are there local factors pushing against it?  Despite it being among the wider parts of the system, its also arguably the most congested (haven't seen stats, but its pretty routine during the morning and evening rush hours).

The biggest issues seem to be WB between PA 611 and PA 309 (just volume) and EB from east of the I-76 split to the NE Extension (due to the heavy merge of I-476 NB traffic) and then again to PA 309.  Not sure what would fix the WB issue, but the EB issue could be improved with a longer acceleration lane, if not a fourth lane to PA 309.  The rest of the Turnpike seems to flow well during rush hour, despite only 3 lanes.

I'd think 4 lanes each way between I-476 and PA 611 would be a big help. It seems like there isn't that much congestion elsewhere (certainly not anything comparable in most of the sections under active widening projects).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 13, 2022, 08:46:24 AM
So... seen a lot about turnpike widening in various locales... but nothing about where it seems to really need it:  I-276 (at least from I-476 east to PA 611).  Have they given up on improving that section because of ROW constraints?  Or are there local factors pushing against it?  Despite it being among the wider parts of the system, its also arguably the most congested (haven't seen stats, but its pretty routine during the morning and evening rush hours).

The biggest issues seem to be WB between PA 611 and PA 309 (just volume) and EB from east of the I-76 split to the NE Extension (due to the heavy merge of I-476 NB traffic) and then again to PA 309.  Not sure what would fix the WB issue, but the EB issue could be improved with a longer acceleration lane, if not a fourth lane to PA 309.  The rest of the Turnpike seems to flow well during rush hour, despite only 3 lanes.

I'd think 4 lanes each way between I-476 and PA 611 would be a big help. It seems like there isn't that much congestion elsewhere (certainly not anything comparable in most of the sections under active widening projects).

The challenge will probably be more of the stretch between I-476 and PA 309.  I think the demographics are similar to those in Swarthmore, who successfully fought building I-476 with more than two lanes through their area.  Not sure they anticipated breathing all the fumes from the congestion in their backyard that resulted.  Further, there are a lot of bridges that will need to be widened in that stretch.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on October 13, 2022, 12:35:41 PM
So... seen a lot about turnpike widening in various locales... but nothing about where it seems to really need it:  I-276 (at least from I-476 east to PA 611).  Have they given up on improving that section because of ROW constraints?  Or are there local factors pushing against it?  Despite it being among the wider parts of the system, its also arguably the most congested (haven't seen stats, but its pretty routine during the morning and evening rush hours).

The biggest issues seem to be WB between PA 611 and PA 309 (just volume) and EB from east of the I-76 split to the NE Extension (due to the heavy merge of I-476 NB traffic) and then again to PA 309.  Not sure what would fix the WB issue, but the EB issue could be improved with a longer acceleration lane, if not a fourth lane to PA 309.  The rest of the Turnpike seems to flow well during rush hour, despite only 3 lanes.

I'd think 4 lanes each way between I-476 and PA 611 would be a big help. It seems like there isn't that much congestion elsewhere (certainly not anything comparable in most of the sections under active widening projects).

The challenge will probably be more of the stretch between I-476 and PA 309.  I think the demographics are similar to those in Swarthmore, who successfully fought building I-476 with more than two lanes through their area.  Not sure they anticipated breathing all the fumes from the congestion in their backyard that resulted.  Further, there are a lot of bridges that will need to be widened in that stretch.

That’s the most interesting thing about that section… most of those overpasses were never widened back when it was 6-laned, so you lose the shoulders under each one. Meanwhile, all more recent widenings have included complete replacements of overpasses. I’d think they are actually due to replace them along that stretch.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 19, 2022, 04:38:51 PM
I just received an email in regard to the Scranton Beltway stating the following:

Quote
We would like to take this opportunity to update you about the Scranton Beltway Project.

A recent directive from the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) for all major projects receiving federal funding now requires these projects to have their National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) review designation re-evaluated. As a result of this re-evaluation, we were notified earlier this year (2022) by FHWA that the Scranton Beltway project must now go through the Environmental Assessment (EA) process.

This federal directive and its resulting project changes will also change our timeframe.

We understand that this delay in the schedule will be disappointing to our stakeholders, and we share that disappointment. Unfortunately, this decision is out of our hands, and we must adhere to the regulations required by this Federal process. Please see the ”˜Fall 2022- Anticipated Design and Field Work’ for more information.



Fall 2022 — Anticipated Design and Field Work



Based on the directive from FHWA, the project team has continued to work through the EA process. Assembling the EA documentation is a more complex and lengthier process than what is required for a project designated as a CE. This process has added significant time, effort, and layers of reviews and approvals from outside agencies. We are actively going through the EA process and are evaluating any way that we can streamline the schedule and help expedite review times from outside agencies to the best of our ability. As a result of needing these approvals prior to having a public hearing, we have had to alter our original schedule of a Fall 2022 public hearing. We are currently anticipating a public hearing in 2023.



Please see the updated FAQs for additional information about the EA process.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on October 19, 2022, 05:08:43 PM
I find it laughable they tried to pass the Beltway project as a CE.  Designation of such a project as EA would not have come as a surprise in NY.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 19, 2022, 09:40:59 PM
Are there other Turnpike projects further along in the review process that the PTC could pivot to instead?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on October 19, 2022, 10:14:17 PM
Are there other Turnpike projects further along in the review process that the PTC could pivot to instead?

A quick review of https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction/design-construction-details reveals that this section had its overpasses rebuilt years ago, but actual work is awaiting funding. There may be other sections in a similar situation.

Editing to add that this section is already scheduled to start in 2023…
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on October 20, 2022, 02:03:59 PM
Are there other Turnpike projects further along in the review process that the PTC could pivot to instead?

A quick review of https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction/design-construction-details reveals that this section had its overpasses rebuilt years ago, but actual work is awaiting funding. There may be other sections in a similar situation.

Editing to add that this section is already scheduled to start in 2023…

Notably, this project will be the first time a standard Turnpike interchange (i.e. exiting the ticket system) will be converted from a trumpet-based design into a more generic design on the mainline. (The redesigned Quakertown exit on the Northeast Extension might beat it to opening.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on November 03, 2022, 08:29:52 AM
A bill passed last month and awaiting the Governor's signature will help strengthen the PTC's efforts to pursue unpaid tolls by changing the thresholds for vehicle registration suspensions. It lowers the dollar amount threshold to $250, drops the number of unpaid Toll-by-Plate invoices from six to four, and increases the statute of limitations from three years to five.

It also directs the PTC to look into using services like Apple Pay and Venmo, and requires an annual report on toll collections.


https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-state/2022/11/02/bill-pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-collection-revenue/stories/202211020099
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 03, 2022, 04:42:25 PM
A bill passed last month and awaiting the Governor's signature will help strengthen the PTC's efforts to pursue unpaid tolls by changing the thresholds for vehicle registration suspensions. It lowers the dollar amount threshold to $250, drops the number of unpaid Toll-by-Plate invoices from six to four, and increases the statute of limitations from three years to five.

It also directs the PTC to look into using services like Apple Pay and Venmo, and requires an annual report on toll collections.


https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-state/2022/11/02/bill-pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-collection-revenue/stories/202211020099

The police need a real-time feed into the toll system to identify vehicles that drive through with obstructed plates (or no plates at all) and pull them over on the spot.  I'm sure I've seen news about this being done in other states.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on November 23, 2022, 10:37:46 AM
So there was a fancy toll gantry constructed across the Northeast Extension at around mp 123.4 (perfect numbering).  Per roadwaywiz's drive in July, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-M5nUclAHQ&t=6955s) there were automated cameras on the southbound side but during my drive yestersay (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/I-476_nb%2C_MP_123.4%2C_Nov._2022.jpg/1024px-I-476_nb%2C_MP_123.4%2C_Nov._2022.jpg), nothing's on it. It's hard to search here about any information about it; what's the haps on this thing?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadsguy on November 23, 2022, 03:54:26 PM
So there was a fancy toll gantry constructed across the Northeast Extension at around mp 123.4 (perfect numbering).  Per roadwaywiz's drive in July, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-M5nUclAHQ&t=6955s) there were automated cameras on the southbound side but during my drive yestersay (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/I-476_nb%2C_MP_123.4%2C_Nov._2022.jpg/1024px-I-476_nb%2C_MP_123.4%2C_Nov._2022.jpg), nothing's on it. It's hard to search here about any information about it; what's the haps on this thing?

Judging by the sign, presumably they're testing implementation of open-road tolling for when they remove the toll plazas.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 23, 2022, 09:03:54 PM
So there was a fancy toll gantry constructed across the Northeast Extension at around mp 123.4 (perfect numbering).  Per roadwaywiz's drive in July, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-M5nUclAHQ&t=6955s) there were automated cameras on the southbound side but during my drive yestersay (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/I-476_nb%2C_MP_123.4%2C_Nov._2022.jpg/1024px-I-476_nb%2C_MP_123.4%2C_Nov._2022.jpg), nothing's on it. It's hard to search here about any information about it; what's the haps on this thing?

I noticed the cameras were gone recently as well. Maybe they finished testing?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wilbur_the_goose on November 25, 2022, 09:46:29 AM
FYI - You can see the latest PA Audit report here:  https://www.paauditor.gov/audit-report/item/107576

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 28, 2022, 11:49:08 AM
Drove through the construction west of Somerset this week.  It looked like some of the new alignments were awaiting final paving, and there was paving on the eastbound side of the roadway.  However, I didn't see much done on the westbound side, which would make it difficult to switch to reconstructing the inner roadway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 29, 2022, 08:49:22 AM
(For US 422)  PennDOT - District 6 News: Utility Work Planned at Night This Week on U.S. 422 in Tredyffrin, Upper Merion Townships (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=7979)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 03, 2022, 11:16:14 AM
Quick trip to western PA this weekend...and can confirm removal of the church steps in New Baltimore is in progress as part of reconstructing MP 126-130.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on December 03, 2022, 11:17:41 AM
Quick trip to western PA this weekend...and can confirm removal of the church steps in New Baltimore is in progress as part of reconstructing MP 126-130.
That sucks.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on December 03, 2022, 01:07:51 PM
Quick trip to western PA this weekend...and can confirm removal of the church steps in New Baltimore is in progress as part of reconstructing MP 126-130.

Not surprising. There was no safe parking for the stairs and the widening was just going to exacerbate the problem. Achieving ADA compliance would have also been tricky, requiring long ramps, and the new Findley Street bridge was built without a sidewalk.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 01:46:52 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 03, 2022, 01:55:24 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

So everything except a specific part that is already 3 lanes?  This is a very redundant post.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on December 03, 2022, 04:03:14 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on December 03, 2022, 04:39:01 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Curves are solved by straightening, banking, or by lowering the speed limit. Widening doesn't help all that much and is considerably more costly compared to the better solutions.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on December 03, 2022, 04:46:03 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

I feel like I wandered into the wrong theater at the multiplex, but I meant to watch something I HAVEN’T ALREADY SEEN.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 03, 2022, 06:30:21 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

I'm sure we've asked in the past, but how many crashes have you been in or seen the aftermath of in this area of roadway?

If I were to answer this myself, my current number is 0.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on December 03, 2022, 08:25:37 PM
Quick trip to western PA this weekend...and can confirm removal of the church steps in New Baltimore is in progress as part of reconstructing MP 126-130.

Not surprising. There was no safe parking for the stairs and the widening was just going to exacerbate the problem. Achieving ADA compliance would have also been tricky, requiring long ramps, and the new Findley Street bridge was built without a sidewalk.

Not to mention the federal government would never allow the steps to remain. It's a miracle they made it this long!

Drove through the construction west of Somerset this week.  It looked like some of the new alignments were awaiting final paving, and there was paving on the eastbound side of the roadway.  However, I didn't see much done on the westbound side, which would make it difficult to switch to reconstructing the inner roadway.

Yeah I noticed that myself. There were a few short stretches with pavement on the westbound side, but most of it is not paved. At this point in the year, I doubt much else will happen until springtime.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on December 03, 2022, 10:59:21 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Accident statistics prove otherwise.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 04, 2022, 08:00:56 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on December 04, 2022, 08:45:34 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.

Busy is one thing... but are there actual backups?  Daily slowing down to 20-30 mph is typical along portions of 276, I don't see much sign of that occurring (holidays or otherwise) on the mainline further west. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the widening money COULD be better spent elsewhere (though I know they are also doing full reconstruction to interstate standards, something they didn't bother with when they 6-laned 276, so at least there's that).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 04, 2022, 08:54:45 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.

Busy is one thing... but are there actual backups?  Daily slowing down to 20-30 mph is typical along portions of 276, I don't see much sign of that occurring (holidays or otherwise) on the mainline further west. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the widening money COULD be better spent elsewhere (though I know they are also doing full reconstruction to interstate standards, something they didn't bother with when they 6-laned 276, so at least there's that).

There are often stop & go backups during holiday weekends (especially Thanksgiving) on the I-70 overlap section in the areas I mentioned.  Elsewhere the issue is more trucks and slower vehicles clogging the left lane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2022, 09:12:30 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.

Busy is one thing... but are there actual backups?  Daily slowing down to 20-30 mph is typical along portions of 276, I don't see much sign of that occurring (holidays or otherwise) on the mainline further west. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the widening money COULD be better spent elsewhere (though I know they are also doing full reconstruction to interstate standards, something they didn't bother with when they 6-laned 276, so at least there's that).

There are often stop & go backups during holiday weekends (especially Thanksgiving) on the I-70 overlap section in the areas I mentioned.  Elsewhere the issue is more trucks and slower vehicles clogging the left lane.

Gotta justify the need for a widening for more than a handful of days a year. Nearly every road needs a widening based on that criteria.

If it was congested multiple times each weekend all summer long, then it's worth looking into a widening.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: VTGoose on December 05, 2022, 10:52:59 AM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 05, 2022, 12:50:51 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

But most of those curves can't even handle the speed limit.

That's not unusual.  That's why God invented advisory speeds.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kphoger on December 05, 2022, 12:57:21 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

Who let this troll in the thread?


Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Curves are solved by straightening, banking, or by lowering the speed limit. Widening doesn't help all that much and is considerably more costly compared to the better solutions.

This.  All another lane would add is a paved place for the flipped car to land.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 01:11:56 PM
Gotta justify the need for a widening for more than a handful of days a year. Nearly every road needs a widening based on that criteria.

If it was congested multiple times each weekend all summer long, then it's worth looking into a widening.

This is why the starting point for a decision as to how much capacity to add is the number of lanes required to accommodate the design hour volume at a target LOS that is often specified as LOS B for rural freeways and LOS D for urban freeways.  (The justification for using an inferior LOS in urban areas is that congestion is more tolerable in small doses.)  DHV is traditionally defined as the 30th highest hour in the design year, but in special circumstances (e.g., very high cost to widen and extreme seasonality of traffic) can be something like the 100th highest hour.

On this forum, we tend to discuss whether widenings are justified or not in terms of very crude present-day AADT warrants (e.g., 10,000 VPD in flat country for widening from two-lane to four-lane divided, or 30,000 VPD for freeway widening from four to six lanes) because that is the only form of traffic data that is conveniently available from most state DOTs.  The traffic modeling on which most actual widening decisions are based tends to be more closely held.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on December 05, 2022, 01:19:17 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

But most of those curves can't even handle the speed limit.

That's not unusual.  That's why God invented advisory speeds.

Well given the speed limit already drops to 50 or 55 around those curves, the advisory speed is likely 40-45 mph.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on December 05, 2022, 01:35:07 PM
^

It was already discussed in your now-locked thread that the only locations where the speed limit drops from 70 to 55 (excluding tunnels & toll plaza approaches) is the stretch east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel & the stretch east of Bensalem.  I don't see any curve advisory speeds on the stretch east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel (meaning 55 is appropriate for those curves), and from a quick GSV sampling 55-60 seems to be the typical curve advisory speed elsewhere.

If you're going to keep beating this dead horse, at least do it in your containment thread & stop polluting legitimate threads with this car-flipping nonsense.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on December 07, 2022, 07:57:53 AM
This is why the starting point for a decision as to how much capacity to add is the number of lanes required to accommodate the design hour volume at a target LOS ... .   DHV is traditionally defined as the 30th highest hour in the design year, but in special circumstances (e.g., very high cost to widen and extreme seasonality of traffic) can be something like the 100th highest hour.

"LOS"?  "DHV"?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: zzcarp on December 07, 2022, 09:30:16 AM
This is why the starting point for a decision as to how much capacity to add is the number of lanes required to accommodate the design hour volume at a target LOS ... .   DHV is traditionally defined as the 30th highest hour in the design year, but in special circumstances (e.g., very high cost to widen and extreme seasonality of traffic) can be something like the 100th highest hour.

"LOS"?  "DHV"?

These are traffic engineering terms.

LOS is Level of Service, generally graded from "A" in the free-flowing condition to "F" in the constant traffic jam/demand>capacity scenario.

DHV is the Design Hourly Volume, as defined above.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on December 07, 2022, 08:26:01 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

But most of those curves can't even handle the speed limit.

That's not unusual.  That's why God invented advisory speeds.
That wasn't God, that was Lord.
John F. Lord worked for Department of Highways in California; eventually retired from CalTrans.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: qguy on December 09, 2022, 06:47:56 AM
^^^^^
That's priceless! :-D
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 23, 2022, 10:18:43 PM
Looks like the mainline mp 308 to 312 is next up on the reconstruction hit parade.  Bids open 2/1/23
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on January 08, 2023, 07:47:14 AM
The annual tradition continues...

https://www.pennlive.com/life/2023/01/increase-in-pa-turnpike-tolls-kicks-in-on-sunday-heres-how-much-it-will-cost-drivers.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 08, 2023, 09:18:09 PM
The question is why they still need to round tolls up to the next dime when cash is no longer collected. It makes the toll increase percentage meaningless because the actual increase is often more than advertised. E-ZPass and Toll by Plate can bill in one cent increments.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on January 08, 2023, 09:21:02 PM
The question is why they still need to round tolls up to the next dime when cash is no longer collected. It makes the toll increase percentage meaningless because the actual increase is often more than advertised. E-ZPass and Toll by Plate can bill in one cent increments.
Because this allows for slightly more cash under same PR and regulation stack?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 08, 2023, 09:52:35 PM
The question is why they still need to round tolls up to the next dime when cash is no longer collected. It makes the toll increase percentage meaningless because the actual increase is often more than advertised. E-ZPass and Toll by Plate can bill in one cent increments.
Because this allows for slightly more cash under same PR and regulation stack?

Yeah, I feel like it has to be to get slightly more revenue out of each increase with how deep in the hole they are from the Act 44/89 payments. I remember the increases did use to round each E-ZPass amount to the nearest penny and each cash amount to the nearest nickel, as recently as 2018 I want to say? (I remember the first time I used the NE Extension after opening my E-ZPass account in 2018, I paid $3.89 from Mid-County to Lehigh Valley.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 13, 2023, 03:19:08 PM
Well, this is certainly a wild way to attempt to evade tolls:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdpa/pr/two-men-charged-scheme-defraud-pa-turnpike-million-dollars-tolls

Quote
HARRISBURG - The United States Attorney’s Office for the Middle District of Pennsylvania announced that Duvany Zambrano, age 43, of Hamilton, New Jersey, and Sergio Jara, age 37, of Allentown, Pennsylvania, were indicted on January 4, 2023, by a federal grand jury for defrauding the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.

According to United States Attorney Gerard M. Karam, the indictment alleges that beginning in 2018, Zambrano, Jara and others began acquiring thousands of E-Z Pass transponders from retailers in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.  They then registered the transponders using false personal information and false credit card information.  They sold the transponders to truckers in the New Jersey area who travelled on the Pennsylvania Turnpike hauling materials. In doing so, the indictment alleges that Zambrano, Jara, and others avoided paying approximately $1,000,000 in tolls.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 13, 2023, 05:09:52 PM
I'm wondering what is meant by "false credit card information".....   Was it a product of ID theft - like they were real credit card accounts and the proper owners had to cancel them when they notified the card company they did not, in fact, buy EZ-Passes at Joe Retailer location?

Or were they somehow able to buy EZ-Passes with completely made-up credit card info (IE, non-existent accounts)?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on January 13, 2023, 09:23:46 PM
^ When you buy at a retail location, you're just paying for the tag itself and a pre-loaded amount... no account is established until later.  There's no requirement that the credit card used for automatic replenishment match whatever was used to buy the tag (honestly, it might even be possible to pay cash, especially as there are now places that allow one to load cash onto an E-ZPass account).  I don't know how how PA and NJ do it, but in NY, the software used for the online account management is clearly antiquated, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's no attempt made to verify card information until the first time it tries to replenish the account.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: seicer on January 14, 2023, 10:11:12 AM
I don't recall that happening as I had a card expire before replenishment but after I bought a tag at a retail store. Their website is as bad as the one from the West Virginia Turnpike: not mobile friendly and confusing to walk through.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 30, 2023, 04:23:40 PM
Sounds like a PA state representative wants the PTC to join the transponder discrimination game because he thinks the Toll by Plate rates are too high.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/pa-turnpikes-massive-tolling-increases-must-be-stopped-lawmakers
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 07:26:54 PM
Sounds like a PA state representative wants the PTC to join the transponder discrimination game because he thinks the Toll by Plate rates are too high.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/pa-turnpikes-massive-tolling-increases-must-be-stopped-lawmakers

This bill, as stated in the article, doesn't require the cash price to drop.  It doesn't encourage residents to get an EZ Pass either.  The theory, I'm guessing, is the if they raise the cost of a trip to out-of-state tag holders, the cash price will drop, which I will believe isn't going to actually happen.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on January 30, 2023, 09:38:55 PM
Sounds like a PA state representative wants the PTC to join the transponder discrimination game because he thinks the Toll by Plate rates are too high.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/pa-turnpikes-massive-tolling-increases-must-be-stopped-lawmakers

This bill, as stated in the article, doesn't require the cash price to drop.  It doesn't encourage residents to get an EZ Pass either.  The theory, I'm guessing, is the if they raise the cost of a trip to out-of-state tag holders, the cash price will drop, which I will believe isn't going to actually happen.

Maybe they should instead eliminate the annual and retailer convenience fees for an E-ZPass (the latter of which seems unique to PA) and offer something akin to New York’s pay-per-trip option.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on February 03, 2023, 08:19:52 PM
Sounds like a PA state representative wants the PTC to join the transponder discrimination game because he thinks the Toll by Plate rates are too high.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/pa-turnpikes-massive-tolling-increases-must-be-stopped-lawmakers
I hate transponder discrimination.  To me, this is the antithesis of the entire EZPass idea.  It’s a consortium.  I have a PTC-issued EZPass.  It drives me insane when I go to Long Island and have to pay the toll-by-mail rate.

Even if you want to make the argument that it’s a “outside agency toll” , I would guess those are settled in large batches like an ACH between agencies.  Charge me the EZPass rate and add a 3% or 25 cent charge.  None of this “well if your EZPass was issued by NY it would be $6 but for you it’s $10.17”  bs.  New York is not mailing me a bill and hoping they collect, which I imagine is the justification for the massive spread between the in state EZPass rate and the toll-by-mail rate.  EZPass is like a 99% guaranteed collection rate for them. 

If I lived in Ohio and had to drive to Philadelphia with an Ohio Tpk EZPass and had to pay the $80 or whatever made up number is the toll-by-plate rate to Valley Forge nowadays, I’d be livid.

Also, I wish the PTC would either reduce the $1.80 minimum EZPass toll, or make a “frequent commuter”  plan.  I remember NY Thruway years back charged me 19 cents to go from Rt 332 to I-490, so there is no reason $1.80 needs to be the minimum.  But I’m also sure the PTC knows that $1.80 for the 5 miles between Harrisburg West and Harrisburg East is a gold mine for them.

A great way to reduce congestion on I-83 in Harrisburg would be some sort of incentive plan to divert through traffic via the I-76 bridge and I-283 North back to the Eisenhower.  Maybe something like a 20 trip plan at 25% discounted average trip cost vs single trip. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 03, 2023, 10:08:05 PM
Also, I wish the PTC would either reduce the $1.80 minimum EZPass toll, or make a “frequent commuter”  plan.  I remember NY Thruway years back charged me 19 cents to go from Rt 332 to I-490, so there is no reason $1.80 needs to be the minimum.  But I’m also sure the PTC knows that $1.80 for the 5 miles between Harrisburg West and Harrisburg East is a gold mine for them.

Not for nothing, but have you driven the Thruway lately?  The Thruway has more potholes than an unkept dirt road.  The PA Turnpike is quite smooth.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on February 03, 2023, 11:23:31 PM
I drove the Thruway from 290 to Irving in July, road was crap.  Got my pay by plate bill for 2 crossing on 190 and the Truway toll, $5.90 including the $2.00 bill fee.  Frankly, way to low for the benefit I got in return.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: sbeaver44 on February 04, 2023, 07:22:19 PM
I have not been on the Thruway since 2020.  That is true though, the PA Turnpike is well kept, especially the newer 3 lane sections.  Even the service plazas are well kept.  I love the Turnpike, it just adds up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 09, 2023, 01:00:31 PM
(For US 422)  PennDOT - District 6 News: Bridge Construction Planned Next Week on U.S. 422, N. Gulph Road in Tredyffrin, Upper Merion Townships (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8052)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on February 13, 2023, 07:32:25 PM
Pretty long detour this weekend on the NE Extension

Pennsylvania Turnpike Plans Weekend Closure between Lehigh Valley and Mahoning Valley Interchanges (https://www.paturnpike.com/news/details/2022/10/06/pennsylvania-turnpike-plans-weekend-closure-between-lehigh-valley-and-mahoning-valley-interchanges)

On Google Earth, their satellite happened to fly over the Lehigh Valley the weekend this bridge replacement happened. There's also plenty of backups at the Lehigh Valley interchange (where fast-tracked repaving of the closed trumpet ramps were occurring) but almost none at Mahoning Valley.

Link to Wiki's GeoHack site for direct coordinate links to GE, you may need to hit the historical imagery button and set it all the way to present day: https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?params=40.619642_N_75.577334_W
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on February 16, 2023, 03:52:44 PM
Mainline reconstruction from MP 312 to 316 was bid yesterday.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on February 17, 2023, 06:21:28 PM
The Turnpike Authority posted a video on their Facebook account showing renovations at the Eastbound Tuscarora Tunnel ... looks quite bright. Also of note are traffic signals before entering the tunnel, as well as lane control signals throughout, not just at the entrance. There also appears to be supports for additional signage at the portal, but maybe that was for construction phase.

https://fb.watch/iLNcpAbmXb/

(Based on a quick check on incognito mode, a FB account should not be needed to view.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PurdueBill on February 19, 2023, 06:48:59 PM
Sounds like a PA state representative wants the PTC to join the transponder discrimination game because he thinks the Toll by Plate rates are too high.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/pa-turnpikes-massive-tolling-increases-must-be-stopped-lawmakers
I hate transponder discrimination.  To me, this is the antithesis of the entire EZPass idea.  It’s a consortium.  I have a PTC-issued EZPass.  It drives me insane when I go to Long Island and have to pay the toll-by-mail rate.

Even if you want to make the argument that it’s a “outside agency toll” , I would guess those are settled in large batches like an ACH between agencies.  Charge me the EZPass rate and add a 3% or 25 cent charge.  None of this “well if your EZPass was issued by NY it would be $6 but for you it’s $10.17”  bs.  New York is not mailing me a bill and hoping they collect, which I imagine is the justification for the massive spread between the in state EZPass rate and the toll-by-mail rate.  EZPass is like a 99% guaranteed collection rate for them. 

If I lived in Ohio and had to drive to Philadelphia with an Ohio Tpk EZPass and had to pay the $80 or whatever made up number is the toll-by-plate rate to Valley Forge nowadays, I’d be livid.

Also, I wish the PTC would either reduce the $1.80 minimum EZPass toll, or make a “frequent commuter”  plan.  I remember NY Thruway years back charged me 19 cents to go from Rt 332 to I-490, so there is no reason $1.80 needs to be the minimum.  But I’m also sure the PTC knows that $1.80 for the 5 miles between Harrisburg West and Harrisburg East is a gold mine for them.

A great way to reduce congestion on I-83 in Harrisburg would be some sort of incentive plan to divert through traffic via the I-76 bridge and I-283 North back to the Eisenhower.  Maybe something like a 20 trip plan at 25% discounted average trip cost vs single trip. 

If the pay by plate rate and the non-local E-ZPass rate are exactly the same, screw it.  I'll take down my E-ZPass and make them do the work to bill me.  Maybe they won't get around to it. 

Originally, E-ZPass was supposed to make things easier for the motorists.  It's now a profit center, saving the toll agencies money but not the motorists. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 19, 2023, 11:48:31 PM
If the pay by plate rate and the non-local E-ZPass rate are exactly the same, screw it.  I'll take down my E-ZPass and make them do the work to bill me.  Maybe they won't get around to it. 

Originally, E-ZPass was supposed to make things easier for the motorists.  It's now a profit center, saving the toll agencies money but not the motorists. 

Early on, the discounts were to incentivize people to get an EZ Pass.  We're well past that stage now.  When motorists have a choice between cash and EZ Pass, many toll roads show roughly 90% use EZ Pass. Very few of them will go back to paying cash when EZ Pass is vastly easier and faster. 

With toll agencies going all-electronic, you may get away with an agency not coming after you for a single toll occurrence, but it's likely they will; almost guaranteed if you have multiple transactions with them.  And then in exchange for the delay in paying the toll with EZ Pass, they'll tack on an administrative fee.

Some people may say the time value of money benefits them if they keep the money in their bank account, but that really only applies if you're earning interest on that money. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on February 20, 2023, 02:22:13 PM
Early on, the discounts were to incentivize people to get an EZ Pass.  We're well past that stage now.  When motorists have a choice between cash and EZ Pass, many toll roads show roughly 90% use EZ Pass. Very few of them will go back to paying cash when EZ Pass is vastly easier and faster.
I thought the discounts were to pass along the savings from E-ZPass being a cheaper means of collecting the toll?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on February 20, 2023, 07:18:27 PM
Early on, the discounts were to incentivize people to get an EZ Pass.  We're well past that stage now.  When motorists have a choice between cash and EZ Pass, many toll roads show roughly 90% use EZ Pass. Very few of them will go back to paying cash when EZ Pass is vastly easier and faster.
I thought the discounts were to pass along the savings from E-ZPass being a cheaper means of collecting the toll?

That's supposed to be the idea, but hitting out of staters with higher tolls is a very easy way to bring in more money without angering locals.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on February 20, 2023, 08:05:32 PM
Early on, the discounts were to incentivize people to get an EZ Pass.  We're well past that stage now.  When motorists have a choice between cash and EZ Pass, many toll roads show roughly 90% use EZ Pass. Very few of them will go back to paying cash when EZ Pass is vastly easier and faster.
I thought the discounts were to pass along the savings from E-ZPass being a cheaper means of collecting the toll?

That's supposed to be the idea, but hitting out of staters with higher tolls is a very easy way to bring in more money without angering locals.

...yet they still raise ALL tolls annually.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2023, 08:56:47 PM
Early on, the discounts were to incentivize people to get an EZ Pass.  We're well past that stage now.  When motorists have a choice between cash and EZ Pass, many toll roads show roughly 90% use EZ Pass. Very few of them will go back to paying cash when EZ Pass is vastly easier and faster.
I thought the discounts were to pass along the savings from E-ZPass being a cheaper means of collecting the toll?

That's supposed to be the idea, but hitting out of staters with higher tolls is a very easy way to bring in more money without angering locals.

...yet they still raise ALL tolls annually.

What products avoid inflation and get cheaper with time?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 21, 2023, 08:30:48 AM
Early on, the discounts were to incentivize people to get an EZ Pass.  We're well past that stage now.  When motorists have a choice between cash and EZ Pass, many toll roads show roughly 90% use EZ Pass. Very few of them will go back to paying cash when EZ Pass is vastly easier and faster.

I thought the discounts were to pass along the savings from E-ZPass being a cheaper means of collecting the toll?

That's supposed to be the idea, but hitting out of staters with higher tolls is a very easy way to bring in more money without angering locals.

Basically "taxation without representation"
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: PurdueBill on February 22, 2023, 07:46:53 PM
Early on, the discounts were to incentivize people to get an EZ Pass.  We're well past that stage now.  When motorists have a choice between cash and EZ Pass, many toll roads show roughly 90% use EZ Pass. Very few of them will go back to paying cash when EZ Pass is vastly easier and faster.
I thought the discounts were to pass along the savings from E-ZPass being a cheaper means of collecting the toll?

That's supposed to be the idea, but hitting out of staters with higher tolls is a very easy way to bring in more money without angering locals.

...yet they still raise ALL tolls annually.

What products avoid inflation and get cheaper with time?

When the price of bread goes up in Meijer or Kroger, though, they don't charge locals one price and out-of-towners another....it's the same price for all-whether paying with gift card, credit card, bottle slip, or cash.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on February 23, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
Quote from: sbeaver44
I hate transponder discrimination.  To me, this is the antithesis of the entire EZPass idea.  It’s a consortium.  I have a PTC-issued EZPass.  It drives me insane when I go to Long Island and have to pay the toll-by-mail rate.

This is why for a while, I had a Maryland-issued EZPass AND a New Jersey-issued EZPass:  I was going back and forth between Philly and Maryland, and also using the bridges between Philly and South Jersey a bunch, so I wanted both the Hatem Bridge unlimited crossing plan AND the DRPA frequent user discount (which I've to this day never hit like I anticipated I might).

The other stupidity is the monthly fees.  For YEARS living in Maryland, I had a Massachusetts-issued EZPass tag, because in the early 2000s I lived in the Boston area (my tag still said "Fast Lane" until its battery died).  Mass didn't charge a monthly fee; Maryland did, and at the time I didn't use MD toll facilities enough to justify the in-state discount.  As soon as Gov. Hogan dropped the monthly fee, I cancelled my Mass EZPass and got a Maryland one.  Since MD charges a monthly fee for out-of-state addresses, I closed that account the instant I moved to PA. 

Now I just have my NJ EZPass tag, and the $1 monthly fee, though chump change, is infuriating, and less than the PTC's $3 monthly fee -- that's the only reason I have the NJ EZPass as opposed to a PTC one; because the monthly fee is cheaper.  Why some agencies charge monthly fees and some don't, and some are more than others, is also a mystery to me.

It pisses me off when I drive up to Connecticut to see family at the holidays, and have to pay the out-of-state toll rates at the Tappan Zee Bridge, GWB, et cetera.  Software makes it just as easy to collect from an out-of-state EZPass issuer than an in-state one.  New York State itself has several EZPass issuing agencies -- the NY Thruway authority, The PANYNJ, and MTA Bridges and Tunnels, to name three, and there may be more, so the in-state versus out-of-state rates make even LESS sense.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on February 23, 2023, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: sbeaver44
I hate transponder discrimination.  To me, this is the antithesis of the entire EZPass idea.  It’s a consortium.  I have a PTC-issued EZPass.  It drives me insane when I go to Long Island and have to pay the toll-by-mail rate.

This is why for a while, I had a Maryland-issued EZPass AND a New Jersey-issued EZPass:  I was going back and forth between Philly and Maryland, and also using the bridges between Philly and South Jersey a bunch, so I wanted both the Hatem Bridge unlimited crossing plan AND the DRPA frequent user discount (which I've to this day never hit like I anticipated I might).

The other stupidity is the monthly fees.  For YEARS living in Maryland, I had a Massachusetts-issued EZPass tag, because in the early 2000s I lived in the Boston area (my tag still said "Fast Lane" until its battery died).  Mass didn't charge a monthly fee; Maryland did, and at the time I didn't use MD toll facilities enough to justify the in-state discount.  As soon as Gov. Hogan dropped the monthly fee, I cancelled my Mass EZPass and got a Maryland one.  Since MD charges a monthly fee for out-of-state addresses, I closed that account the instant I moved to PA. 

Now I just have my NJ EZPass tag, and the $1 monthly fee, though chump change, is infuriating, and less than the PTC's $3 monthly fee -- that's the only reason I have the NJ EZPass as opposed to a PTC one; because the monthly fee is cheaper.  Why some agencies charge monthly fees and some don't, and some are more than others, is also a mystery to me.

It pisses me off when I drive up to Connecticut to see family at the holidays, and have to pay the out-of-state toll rates at the Tappan Zee Bridge, GWB, et cetera.  Software makes it just as easy to collect from an out-of-state EZPass issuer than an in-state one.  New York State itself has several EZPass issuing agencies -- the NY Thruway authority, The PANYNJ, and MTA Bridges and Tunnels, to name three, and there may be more, so the in-state versus out-of-state rates make even LESS sense.

I have three E-ZPasses - North Carolina (for the HOV tag), New York (had this originally when I bought a tag in Buffalo, now use in my wife's car and when we travel to NY), and Maryland (for the Hatem Bridge plan). 

I had a time when the Maryland tag was somehow being read through the read-proof bag and I was being charged on both E-ZPass accounts because the MD tag was invalid outside the Hatem Bridge (thereby they looked up my license plate and charged the other E-ZPass account).  Only after having the PA Turnpike investigate the issue did I discover this was happening, at which point I removed duplicate license plates and added foil wrap around the Maryland tag.

I can imagine this happening more often if people have to carry more passes to minimize the tolls they pay.  I was tempted to consolidate by adding a tag to my brother's MD account since he lives there, but decided against it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on February 24, 2023, 09:46:07 AM
I currently have just a Maryland account, but I'm debating picking up an on-the-go* tag whenever I'm next in Upstate New York for future road trips to New England - I can handle the current $6.61 out-of-state rate for the Tappan Zee (which is the NYSTA toll I hit the most), but the proposed NYSTA toll hikes that will match the out-of-state rate to the toll-by-mail rate and hike both to $13.56 by 2027 (compared to the in-state rate of $7.75 by 2027) have me strongly reconsidering. I can tolerate agencies having the 3-tiered rate (such as MDTA, NYSTA for the moment, and MassDOT) since I at least still get a break off the toll-by-mail rate, but matching the out-of-state rate to the toll-by-mail rate (looking at you PANYNJ, MTAB&T, and potentially NYSTA) is what I have a bone to pick with.

*To ensure it's a NYSTA tag rather than a PANYNJ tag, which for some reason charges a monthly fee while NYSTA & MTAB&T don't.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 24, 2023, 12:47:10 PM
I can imagine this happening more often if people have to carry more passes to minimize the tolls they pay.  I was tempted to consolidate by adding a tag to my brother's MD account since he lives there, but decided against it.

It will be extremely minimal the number of people that have multiple EZ Passes to try to get the absolute best rate at all times.  Most people aren't going to spend the time to look up each individual agency to get a tag, then tie up their money with that agency on the rare occasion they're using that toll road, then have their EZ Passes placed in their vehicle so they can switch them based on their travel plans.  There's a few that do, especially in the AARoads family, but it's rare.

Very few people use multiple agencies in a single day.  Maybe someone commuting from NJ may benefit due to all the surrounding different tolling authorities, but NJ's EZ Pass program has agreements with nearby agencies for discounts, which greatly eliminate the need for multiple EZ Passes.

MD offers a discount for their tolling points, but you have to have an MD address to qualify.  And people in MD using their EZ Pass probably aren't traveling thru other toll plazas too often in other states where they would benefit from another program.

If people want to save money, there are a lot of other ways to do it.  Having an app for each convenience store and restaurant they visit usually results in savings on a per-visit or accumulated point basis.  Clipping coupons.  Searching out deals on 3rd party websites.  Knowing the gas price at every gas station they pass to hit the lowest one.  Driving slower on highways to increase fuel economy.  These are all everyday ways to save money, rather than saving a dollar or two on a rarely used EZ Pass facility.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on March 09, 2023, 04:00:10 PM
I noticed now how PTC addressed the two redundant NB NE Ext Exit 31 ramps now that cash tolls are historic.  They signed 31A as EB PA 63 while 31B is signed WB PA 63.  IMO, they should close 31B and make 31A the sole 31 as left turns are still permitted at the end of Exit 31A making WB PA 63 still accessible there.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on March 09, 2023, 05:46:22 PM
Why?

All of that infrastructure was rebuilt during the widening in that section (around 2015-2016)

The tool booths will come down, sure; and perhaps even the ETC equipment on the northbound exit/southbound access; but it would seem a waste to abandon that.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: akotchi on March 09, 2023, 11:08:58 PM
^^ If anything, prohibit the left turns at the top of each ramp (allowing the turns the signs advertise).  Could simplify the traffic signal phasing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on March 10, 2023, 12:33:31 AM
There is no southbound access to either direction of Sumneytown Pike without going over the bridge to the tollbooths -- new ramps would need to be constructed anyway for southbound traffic.

I'm guessing the northbound slipramp (31A) had the left turn for the benefit of E-ZPass holders; and to allow traffic heading east a break in the traffic to turn, I believe the ramp also has a system to cycle the lights if traffic beings to backup toward the mainline, which I have seen happen at peak times.

https://goo.gl/maps/6unf6ZRwYaDHvWoj6 

Title: Tree removal
Post by: wilbur_the_goose on March 12, 2023, 12:38:10 PM
I've noticed a lot of tree removal work in Chester County - centered on exit 312.   Appears that the PTC has removed many trees so that the roadway gets more sun and doesn't succumb to the freeze/thaw cycle.  Great work!

The odd thing is that they cut the trees and left the remains on the ground.   It looks horrible and I'm sure private land owners nearby aren't thrilled.

Is this normal, or will PTC clean up their tree trash once the weather improves?
Title: Re: Tree removal
Post by: famartin on March 12, 2023, 01:11:28 PM
I've noticed a lot of tree removal work in Chester County - centered on exit 312.   Appears that the PTC has removed many trees so that the roadway gets more sun and doesn't succumb to the freeze/thaw cycle.  Great work!

The odd thing is that they cut the trees and left the remains on the ground.   It looks horrible and I'm sure private land owners nearby aren't thrilled.

Is this normal, or will PTC clean up their tree trash once the weather improves?

Isn't that work related to the widening project?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2023, 01:58:27 PM
I've noticed a lot of tree removal work in Chester County - centered on exit 312.   Appears that the PTC has removed many trees so that the roadway gets more sun and doesn't succumb to the freeze/thaw cycle.  Great work!

The odd thing is that they cut the trees and left the remains on the ground.   It looks horrible and I'm sure private land owners nearby aren't thrilled.

Is this normal, or will PTC clean up their tree trash once the weather improves?

Isn't that work related to the widening project?

Yeah. They don't chop trees down to compensate for a few days of potential freezing.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 12, 2023, 11:33:18 PM
See my post 2888
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on March 13, 2023, 03:20:59 PM
I've noticed a lot of tree removal work in Chester County - centered on exit 312.   Appears that the PTC has removed many trees so that the roadway gets more sun and doesn't succumb to the freeze/thaw cycle.  Great work!

The odd thing is that they cut the trees and left the remains on the ground.   It looks horrible and I'm sure private land owners nearby aren't thrilled.

Is this normal, or will PTC clean up their tree trash once the weather improves?

Isn't that work related to the widening project?

Yeah. They don't chop trees down to compensate for a few days of potential freezing.

Sure they do. See https://aashtojournal.org/2022/03/25/canopy-clearing-helping-improve-roadway-safety/ for an AASHTO Journal article about the process.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on March 21, 2023, 12:07:16 AM
https://www.wtae.com/article/pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-ezpass-house-bill-price-gap/43370032#

Pennsylvania might be the next state to get rid of the price gap...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 21, 2023, 12:18:04 AM
https://www.wtae.com/article/pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-ezpass-house-bill-price-gap/43370032#

Pennsylvania might be the next state to get rid of the price gap...

That entire article is a "What the hell are they trying to say?".
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 21, 2023, 09:05:43 AM
https://www.wtae.com/article/pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-ezpass-house-bill-price-gap/43370032#

Pennsylvania might be the next state to get rid of the price gap...

That is a terrible article as far as explaining the purpose of that bill.  The interviews were framed the wrong way as well.

I already wrote to my rep (and the author of the bill) expressing my opposition to a two-tier E-ZPass rate structure.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on March 21, 2023, 09:09:13 AM
https://www.wtae.com/article/pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-ezpass-house-bill-price-gap/43370032#

Pennsylvania might be the next state to get rid of the price gap...

That entire article is a "What the hell are they trying to say?".

So... they want to eliminate the EZ-Pass discount and charge everyone the higher rates?  Sounds very PTC.  Way to ensure I NEVER use the Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 21, 2023, 10:32:31 AM
https://www.wtae.com/article/pennsylvania-turnpike-toll-ezpass-house-bill-price-gap/43370032#

Pennsylvania might be the next state to get rid of the price gap...

That entire article is a "What the hell are they trying to say?".

So... they want to eliminate the EZ-Pass discount and charge everyone the higher rates?  Sounds very PTC.  Way to ensure I NEVER use the Turnpike.

The way I read the actual bill (linked below) is they want to eliminate the huge toll-by-plate differential for Pennsylvania plates and charge them and PA E-ZPass users the same rate.  Everyone else (non-PA E-ZPass users and toll-by-plate users) would pay a higher rate, possibly the current toll-by-plate rates.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2023&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0516&pn=0485
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on March 22, 2023, 11:35:09 AM

The way I read the actual bill (linked below) is they want to eliminate the huge toll-by-plate differential for Pennsylvania plates and charge them and PA E-ZPass users the same rate.  Everyone else (non-PA E-ZPass users and toll-by-plate users) would pay a higher rate, possibly the current toll-by-plate rates.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2023&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0516&pn=0485

Admittedly, I have not read the bill yet, but thank you for the link, and I will read the bill.

My car has Pennsylvania plates (well, PLATE, but this is not the forum to discuss the relative merits and demerits of having a front license plate, suffice it to say I am very much in favor of front plates in any jurisdiction that experiences snow and/or mud), but my E-ZPass transponder is from New Jersey.  I've never cared much, because my understanding is that E-ZPass users get the same toll rates on the PA Turnpike regardless of the issuing agency for the E-ZPass transponder.  Is this wrong?  Do PTC-issued E-ZPass transponders incur a lower toll rate on the PA Turnpike?

I don't like what NY and MD and probably a whole dossier of other states do with charging out-of-state E-ZPass transponders higher rates.  I don't want to have 34781263741891 different E-ZPass transponders in my car, select the "right" one, and make sure all the others don't get read/charged.  I chose a NJ transponder for reasons related to the frequency with which I used DRPA bridges at the time (now I'm reconsidering this -- lower PA Turnpike toll rates for PTC-issued transponders might push me to switch to a PTC-issued transponder).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on March 22, 2023, 02:43:03 PM

The way I read the actual bill (linked below) is they want to eliminate the huge toll-by-plate differential for Pennsylvania plates and charge them and PA E-ZPass users the same rate.  Everyone else (non-PA E-ZPass users and toll-by-plate users) would pay a higher rate, possibly the current toll-by-plate rates.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2023&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0516&pn=0485

Admittedly, I have not read the bill yet, but thank you for the link, and I will read the bill.

My car has Pennsylvania plates (well, PLATE, but this is not the forum to discuss the relative merits and demerits of having a front license plate, suffice it to say I am very much in favor of front plates in any jurisdiction that experiences snow and/or mud), but my E-ZPass transponder is from New Jersey.  I've never cared much, because my understanding is that E-ZPass users get the same toll rates on the PA Turnpike regardless of the issuing agency for the E-ZPass transponder.  Is this wrong?  Do PTC-issued E-ZPass transponders incur a lower toll rate on the PA Turnpike?

I don't like what NY and MD and probably a whole dossier of other states do with charging out-of-state E-ZPass transponders higher rates.  I don't want to have 34781263741891 different E-ZPass transponders in my car, select the "right" one, and make sure all the others don't get read/charged.  I chose a NJ transponder for reasons related to the frequency with which I used DRPA bridges at the time (now I'm reconsidering this -- lower PA Turnpike toll rates for PTC-issued transponders might push me to switch to a PTC-issued transponder).

Unfortunately for all of us, transponder discrimination is an easy way for toll facility operators to bring in higher revenues without ruffling a lot of feathers. Plenty of people don't even pay attention to how much it costs, just that their EZPass deducted the toll properly. I wish the IAG had put stronger wording into the compacts to prohibit this behavior but this is now a fact of life. Basically every state does it. If the PTC isn't doing it already, they likely will at some point.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 22, 2023, 03:46:33 PM

The way I read the actual bill (linked below) is they want to eliminate the huge toll-by-plate differential for Pennsylvania plates and charge them and PA E-ZPass users the same rate.  Everyone else (non-PA E-ZPass users and toll-by-plate users) would pay a higher rate, possibly the current toll-by-plate rates.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2023&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0516&pn=0485

Admittedly, I have not read the bill yet, but thank you for the link, and I will read the bill.

My car has Pennsylvania plates (well, PLATE, but this is not the forum to discuss the relative merits and demerits of having a front license plate, suffice it to say I am very much in favor of front plates in any jurisdiction that experiences snow and/or mud), but my E-ZPass transponder is from New Jersey.  I've never cared much, because my understanding is that E-ZPass users get the same toll rates on the PA Turnpike regardless of the issuing agency for the E-ZPass transponder.  Is this wrong?  Do PTC-issued E-ZPass transponders incur a lower toll rate on the PA Turnpike?

I don't like what NY and MD and probably a whole dossier of other states do with charging out-of-state E-ZPass transponders higher rates.  I don't want to have 34781263741891 different E-ZPass transponders in my car, select the "right" one, and make sure all the others don't get read/charged.  I chose a NJ transponder for reasons related to the frequency with which I used DRPA bridges at the time (now I'm reconsidering this -- lower PA Turnpike toll rates for PTC-issued transponders might push me to switch to a PTC-issued transponder).

The irony is the author of the bill is from Philadelphia, where there is likely an insignificant number of residents who have a NJ E-ZPass for the same reason you do.  I wrote to the author and to our state representative pointing this out.

Right now, all E-ZPass users pay the same E-ZPass rate, so there's no incentive to switch.  If PA got rid of the annual fee (especially for residents like MD/NY have done) and the convenience fee for buying a pre-loaded tag at a retailer, I think it would be more palatable for people to get E-ZPass.  Even better would be a pay-per-trip option.  I noted all of those in my letters.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on March 23, 2023, 12:02:15 AM

The way I read the actual bill (linked below) is they want to eliminate the huge toll-by-plate differential for Pennsylvania plates and charge them and PA E-ZPass users the same rate.  Everyone else (non-PA E-ZPass users and toll-by-plate users) would pay a higher rate, possibly the current toll-by-plate rates.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2023&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0516&pn=0485

Admittedly, I have not read the bill yet, but thank you for the link, and I will read the bill.

My car has Pennsylvania plates (well, PLATE, but this is not the forum to discuss the relative merits and demerits of having a front license plate, suffice it to say I am very much in favor of front plates in any jurisdiction that experiences snow and/or mud), but my E-ZPass transponder is from New Jersey.  I've never cared much, because my understanding is that E-ZPass users get the same toll rates on the PA Turnpike regardless of the issuing agency for the E-ZPass transponder.  Is this wrong?  Do PTC-issued E-ZPass transponders incur a lower toll rate on the PA Turnpike?

I don't like what NY and MD and probably a whole dossier of other states do with charging out-of-state E-ZPass transponders higher rates.  I don't want to have 34781263741891 different E-ZPass transponders in my car, select the "right" one, and make sure all the others don't get read/charged.  I chose a NJ transponder for reasons related to the frequency with which I used DRPA bridges at the time (now I'm reconsidering this -- lower PA Turnpike toll rates for PTC-issued transponders might push me to switch to a PTC-issued transponder).
Don't NJ transponders charge $1/month? That's why I went straight to NY Thruway.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 23, 2023, 07:27:12 AM
I wish the IAG had put stronger wording into the compacts to prohibit this behavior but this is now a fact of life.

"IAG"?  Google isn't helping iykwim.

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on March 23, 2023, 07:27:32 AM
I wish the IAG had put stronger wording into the compacts to prohibit this behavior but this is now a fact of life.

"IAG"?  Google isn't helping iykwim.
Interagency Group.

Searching "E-zpass iag" brings it right up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on March 23, 2023, 08:06:16 AM
I wish the IAG had put stronger wording into the compacts to prohibit this behavior but this is now a fact of life.

"IAG"?  Google isn't helping iykwim.
Interagency Group.

Searching "E-zpass iag" brings it right up.

Complete with the link to the Wikipedia article on EZP that tell us before we click it that E-ZPass has been with us since 1987.  Wow, that long?!?  If only I'd thought of the magic word...  :rolleyes: :D Thanks, Rothman.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on March 23, 2023, 09:08:19 AM
Unfortunately for all of us, transponder discrimination is an easy way for toll facility operators to bring in higher revenues without ruffling a lot of feathers. Plenty of people don't even pay attention to how much it costs, just that their EZPass deducted the toll properly. I wish the IAG had put stronger wording into the compacts to prohibit this behavior but this is now a fact of life. Basically every state does it. If the PTC isn't doing it already, they likely will at some point.

It's not simply about bringing in higher revenues; it's also about bringing in the same revenues.  Besides the actual tolls paid, there is additional revenue (e.g. transponder deposits, prefunded amounts sitting in user accounts) that toll facility operators don't get when a motorist uses an E-ZPass issued by another agency.  At least part of the discrimination is to make up for that.

For what it's worth, the Ohio Turnpike currently does not practice transponder discrimination.  Their toll calculator does not show separate toll amounts for in-state vs. out-of-state transponders. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 23, 2023, 09:49:28 AM

The way I read the actual bill (linked below) is they want to eliminate the huge toll-by-plate differential for Pennsylvania plates and charge them and PA E-ZPass users the same rate.  Everyone else (non-PA E-ZPass users and toll-by-plate users) would pay a higher rate, possibly the current toll-by-plate rates.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2023&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0516&pn=0485

Admittedly, I have not read the bill yet, but thank you for the link, and I will read the bill.

My car has Pennsylvania plates (well, PLATE, but this is not the forum to discuss the relative merits and demerits of having a front license plate, suffice it to say I am very much in favor of front plates in any jurisdiction that experiences snow and/or mud), but my E-ZPass transponder is from New Jersey.  I've never cared much, because my understanding is that E-ZPass users get the same toll rates on the PA Turnpike regardless of the issuing agency for the E-ZPass transponder.  Is this wrong?  Do PTC-issued E-ZPass transponders incur a lower toll rate on the PA Turnpike?

I don't like what NY and MD and probably a whole dossier of other states do with charging out-of-state E-ZPass transponders higher rates.  I don't want to have 34781263741891 different E-ZPass transponders in my car, select the "right" one, and make sure all the others don't get read/charged.  I chose a NJ transponder for reasons related to the frequency with which I used DRPA bridges at the time (now I'm reconsidering this -- lower PA Turnpike toll rates for PTC-issued transponders might push me to switch to a PTC-issued transponder).
Don't NJ transponders charge $1/month? That's why I went straight to NY Thruway.

That is correct.  However, many of the bridges into PA offer frequent user discounts for NJ tagholders (because the bridge agencies use NJ for their E-ZPass programs), plus there are NJ Turnpike off-peak discounts that only apply to NJ transponders.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 23, 2023, 11:25:05 PM
Unfortunately for all of us, transponder discrimination is an easy way for toll facility operators to bring in higher revenues without ruffling a lot of feathers. Plenty of people don't even pay attention to how much it costs, just that their EZPass deducted the toll properly. I wish the IAG had put stronger wording into the compacts to prohibit this behavior but this is now a fact of life. Basically every state does it. If the PTC isn't doing it already, they likely will at some point.

The basic purpose of the IAG was to get several states to cooperate and accept one method of payment across several different tolling agencies.  In government, this is a near impossibility.  Being worried about transponder discrimination was not on their minds at the time. Remember, I think it was Florida in the 1990s had several different non-compatible electronic tolling systems within its own state before they developed SunPass. 

While we look at transponder discrimination as a bad thing, it's nothing more than a discount one gets for being a paid member of a club.  If they eliminated transponder discrimination, they would either boost they lowest tolls up to the highest tolls, or determine what the mean toll would be based on all the motorists that normally travel through.  They're not going to lower the tolls for everyone down to the lowest tolls available.

Ending transponder discrimination would mostly piss off the locals - the ones that vote and use the roads the most.  And since members of the IAG ultimately answer to the politicians of the member states, guess what's not gonna happen anytime soon...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on March 24, 2023, 10:03:15 AM

Don't NJ transponders charge $1/month? That's why I went straight to NY Thruway.

That's right, and that's cheaper than the $3/month the PTC charges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 24, 2023, 10:23:16 AM

Don't NJ transponders charge $1/month? That's why I went straight to NY Thruway.


That's right, and that's cheaper than the $3/month the PTC charges.

It's actually $0.25/month ($3/year) but it's still higher than zero.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on March 24, 2023, 03:58:29 PM

Don't NJ transponders charge $1/month? That's why I went straight to NY Thruway.


That's right, and that's cheaper than the $3/month the PTC charges.

It's actually $0.25/month ($3/year) but it's still higher than zero.

Hmmm.  I may switch to a PTC-issued transponder, then.  I'm not using DRPA bridges enough for the commuter discount.  BUT, I use the NJ Turnpike occasionally during off-peak hours, so... *shrug*
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 13, 2023, 08:27:49 PM
Any visible progress on the Beaver River bridge project?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 27, 2023, 05:57:13 PM
Should we be seeing a new annual budget/capital plan coming out?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on April 27, 2023, 06:17:46 PM
Should we be seeing a new annual budget/capital plan coming out?

Normally comes in the next month or two, along with the annual toll increase announcement
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 02, 2023, 11:51:38 AM
The PTC now has a website detailing the Open Road Tolling conversion.  Contrary to what might have been communicated before, it won't be turned on in the eastern part of the state until 2025 (instead of 2024), which is only one year earlier than the western part.

You can see the location of gantries, but only in the eastern part of the state for now.

They also note rates still use "revenue requirements" from the 1940s & 1950s, depending on the segment driven.  Going forward, rates will be uniform on a per-mile basis.  Guess it's possible some rates may decrease and others may increase.

https://www.paturnpike.com/all-electronic-tolling/open-road-tolling
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 02, 2023, 01:05:40 PM
The PTC now has a website detailing the Open Road Tolling conversion.  Contrary to what might have been communicated before, it won't be turned on in the eastern part of the state until 2025 (instead of 2024), which is only one year earlier than the western part.

You can see the location of gantries, but only in the eastern part of the state for now.

They also note rates still use "revenue requirements" from the 1940s & 1950s, depending on the segment driven.  Going forward, rates will be uniform on a per-mile basis.  Guess it's possible some rates may decrease and others may increase.

https://www.paturnpike.com/all-electronic-tolling/open-road-tolling

Well, looks to be about 1.5 to 2 years earlier than the western part of the state, per that article.  And given the PA Turnpike's fondness for timeliness (or lack thereof), I imagine this may be a few more years off...

Quote
Open Road Tolling will begin in 2025 in the eastern part of the state. Specifically, east of Reading and on the Northeastern Extension. It will expand to the western region of the PA Turnpike beginning in late 2026. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on May 02, 2023, 05:37:15 PM
Assuming I'm remembering accurately, that's kind of how EZ-Pass was originally rolled out as well.... it was available in the eastern part of the state a decent bit before we could start using it here in the western half of the state.

Also of note, technically, there is now a new ORT gantry in this half of the state.   They've put one up that will replace the Warrendale hybrid-ORT/traditional-plaza-lanes toll plaza (labeled MP31)

https://goo.gl/maps/4PR5rU1KYNZvswzr8

Based on the PTC traffic cameras available on PennDOT's 511 site - https://www.511pa.com/ - it still isn't operational yet (the cover on the sign approaching it is half blown off last I checked) - The Warrendale plaza is currently acting as ORT until they switch and demolish it. 
Of course, that plaza (and it's pending replacement) is the western end of the "ticket" system.  Not sure if they'll re-toll west of there to Ohio - if they state that the rates will be uniform on a per-mile basis, I'd have to think it's at least a strong possibility they'll slap some gantries up between Cranberry & Ohio in between those interchanges.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on May 02, 2023, 08:57:03 PM
That would be an interesting plot twist.  Currently, it's best to clinch I-76 heading WB because of the EB-only PA border toll.  When OH switches their tolling around, they will have a WB-only border toll, so that will make things even.  But if PA abandons the border toll in favor of a uniform per-mile rate, then this will flip the script and make it better to clinch in the EB direction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 03, 2023, 08:07:28 AM
Assuming I'm remembering accurately, that's kind of how EZ-Pass was originally rolled out as well.... it was available in the eastern part of the state a decent bit before we could start using it here in the western half of the state.

Also of note, technically, there is now a new ORT gantry in this half of the state.   They've put one up that will replace the Warrendale hybrid-ORT/traditional-plaza-lanes toll plaza (labeled MP31)

https://goo.gl/maps/4PR5rU1KYNZvswzr8

Based on the PTC traffic cameras available on PennDOT's 511 site - https://www.511pa.com/ - it still isn't operational yet (the cover on the sign approaching it is half blown off last I checked) - The Warrendale plaza is currently acting as ORT until they switch and demolish it. 
Of course, that plaza (and it's pending replacement) is the western end of the "ticket" system.  Not sure if they'll re-toll west of there to Ohio - if they state that the rates will be uniform on a per-mile basis, I'd have to think it's at least a strong possibility they'll slap some gantries up between Cranberry & Ohio in between those interchanges.

I personally doubt they'll revert on the western section - Ohio is going the same way with moving its mainline tolls further in from the border and creating "free" interchanges
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on May 05, 2023, 10:03:13 AM
Assuming I'm remembering accurately, that's kind of how EZ-Pass was originally rolled out as well.... it was available in the eastern part of the state a decent bit before we could start using it here in the western half of the state.

Also of note, technically, there is now a new ORT gantry in this half of the state.   They've put one up that will replace the Warrendale hybrid-ORT/traditional-plaza-lanes toll plaza (labeled MP31)

https://goo.gl/maps/4PR5rU1KYNZvswzr8

Based on the PTC traffic cameras available on PennDOT's 511 site - https://www.511pa.com/ - it still isn't operational yet (the cover on the sign approaching it is half blown off last I checked) - The Warrendale plaza is currently acting as ORT until they switch and demolish it. 
Of course, that plaza (and it's pending replacement) is the western end of the "ticket" system.  Not sure if they'll re-toll west of there to Ohio - if they state that the rates will be uniform on a per-mile basis, I'd have to think it's at least a strong possibility they'll slap some gantries up between Cranberry & Ohio in between those interchanges.

I personally doubt they'll revert on the western section - Ohio is going the same way with moving its mainline tolls further in from the border and creating "free" interchanges

The Southern Beltway is AET and now has several free movement sections since there are just 3 mainline tolling points rather than tolling points between every ramp. With that in mind, I can see PTC keeping the free section on the western end of the turnpike. That being said, as a fairness measure, I wish they'd bring back tolling along the western section and charge per-mile because the eastbound toll coming in the state really wallops people who are just going to I-376 versus the whole way to Warrendale.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on May 05, 2023, 02:43:23 PM
They are correct about the unequal toll rates.  The rates in the Philly area are much higher on a per-mile basis.  Not sure if this is deliberate (like the NJ Turnpike near NYC) or if it was just based on the revenue projections at the time each section was opened, like they said.

The E-ZPass toll from New Stanton to Breezewood is $12.10, which comes out to about 14 cents/mile.  However, the toll from Valley Forge to Bensalem is $5.40, or about 21.6 cents/mile.  If the rates were equal (say using the 14 cent/mile rate), the Valley Forge-Bensalem toll would be about $3.60, or $1.80 less.  Of course, everything depends on the per-mile rate the PTC settles on.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: famartin on May 05, 2023, 02:49:09 PM
They are correct about the unequal toll rates.  The rates in the Philly area are much higher on a per-mile basis.  Not sure if this is deliberate (like the NJ Turnpike near NYC) or if it was just based on the revenue projections at the time each section was opened, like they said.

Its obviously not on a service quality basis, that's for sure, since Philly area service is overall the worst in the system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 07, 2023, 10:43:09 PM
Should we be seeing a new annual budget/capital plan coming out?

Normally comes in the next month or two, along with the annual toll increase announcement

It appears that one may have come out last Friday.  I see a lot of expenditure for Pittsburgh to Irwin with Pittsburgh to Allegheny Valley secondary.  See lots of design work for Cranberry, Rt 8.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on May 08, 2023, 10:00:12 PM
Should we be seeing a new annual budget/capital plan coming out?

Normally comes in the next month or two, along with the annual toll increase announcement

It appears that one may have come out last Friday.  I see a lot of expenditure for Pittsburgh to Irwin with Pittsburgh to Allegheny Valley secondary.  See lots of design work for Cranberry, Rt 8.

I'm glad that segment near PA 8/Exit 39 is finally getting considered.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on May 11, 2023, 04:27:56 PM

Also of note, technically, there is now a new ORT gantry in this half of the state.   They've put one up that will replace the Warrendale hybrid-ORT/traditional-plaza-lanes toll plaza (labeled MP31)


I've noticed the PTC has been constructing little house-like structures along the Turnpike and Northeast Extension in this part of the state.  I assume they are going to be shielding equipment for ORT gantries.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tckma on May 11, 2023, 04:31:15 PM
They are correct about the unequal toll rates.  The rates in the Philly area are much higher on a per-mile basis.  Not sure if this is deliberate (like the NJ Turnpike near NYC) or if it was just based on the revenue projections at the time each section was opened, like they said.

The E-ZPass toll from New Stanton to Breezewood is $12.10, which comes out to about 14 cents/mile.  However, the toll from Valley Forge to Bensalem is $5.40, or about 21.6 cents/mile.  If the rates were equal (say using the 14 cent/mile rate), the Valley Forge-Bensalem toll would be about $3.60, or $1.80 less.  Of course, everything depends on the per-mile rate the PTC settles on.

Given that Act Eleventy-Seven or whatever it is mandates PA Turnpike tolls mostly go to fund SEPTA, it kind of makes sense.  I know if I lived in the Pittsburgh area, I'd be annoyed that tolls were going to fund transit at the opposite end of the state.  Honestly, though, given the amount of non-locals using the Turnpike, the SEPTA payments make even less sense, but I digress.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 11, 2023, 11:29:00 PM
They are correct about the unequal toll rates.  The rates in the Philly area are much higher on a per-mile basis.  Not sure if this is deliberate (like the NJ Turnpike near NYC) or if it was just based on the revenue projections at the time each section was opened, like they said.

The E-ZPass toll from New Stanton to Breezewood is $12.10, which comes out to about 14 cents/mile.  However, the toll from Valley Forge to Bensalem is $5.40, or about 21.6 cents/mile.  If the rates were equal (say using the 14 cent/mile rate), the Valley Forge-Bensalem toll would be about $3.60, or $1.80 less.  Of course, everything depends on the per-mile rate the PTC settles on.

Given that Act Eleventy-Seven or whatever it is mandates PA Turnpike tolls mostly go to fund SEPTA, it kind of makes sense.  I know if I lived in the Pittsburgh area, I'd be annoyed that tolls were going to fund transit at the opposite end of the state.  Honestly, though, given the amount of non-locals using the Turnpike, the SEPTA payments make even less sense, but I digress.

Acts 44/89.

PA Turnpike tolls funded mass transit throughout the state, not just SEPTA. How was that money truly divided up though?  A quick Google search didn't reveal the answer.  The PTC gave the money to PennDOT; they administrated the money to the transit agencies.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on May 12, 2023, 12:54:40 PM
They are correct about the unequal toll rates.  The rates in the Philly area are much higher on a per-mile basis.  Not sure if this is deliberate (like the NJ Turnpike near NYC) or if it was just based on the revenue projections at the time each section was opened, like they said.

The E-ZPass toll from New Stanton to Breezewood is $12.10, which comes out to about 14 cents/mile.  However, the toll from Valley Forge to Bensalem is $5.40, or about 21.6 cents/mile.  If the rates were equal (say using the 14 cent/mile rate), the Valley Forge-Bensalem toll would be about $3.60, or $1.80 less.  Of course, everything depends on the per-mile rate the PTC settles on.

Given that Act Eleventy-Seven or whatever it is mandates PA Turnpike tolls mostly go to fund SEPTA, it kind of makes sense.  I know if I lived in the Pittsburgh area, I'd be annoyed that tolls were going to fund transit at the opposite end of the state.  Honestly, though, given the amount of non-locals using the Turnpike, the SEPTA payments make even less sense, but I digress.

Acts 44/89.

PA Turnpike tolls funded mass transit throughout the state, not just SEPTA. How was that money truly divided up though?  A quick Google search didn't reveal the answer.  The PTC gave the money to PennDOT; they administrated the money to the transit agencies.
Maybe not the full data, but:
SEPTA: Act 44 Operating Assistance Section 1513 Allocation: $714,416,750
Port Authority of Allegheny county: Act 44 Operating Assistance Section 1513 Allocation: $244,850,155
South Central Transit Authority $17M
Lehigh and Northampton Transportation Authority $19M

Up to $7M  for 31 other agency


https://www.penndot.pa.gov/Doing-Business/Transit/InformationandReports/Documents/BPT%20Annual%20Report%202020-21.pdf
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 06, 2023, 01:59:15 PM
(For US 422)  PennDOT - District 6 News: Bridge Construction Planned Wednesday on U.S. 422, N. Gulph Road in Tredyffrin, Upper Merion Townships (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8391)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 05, 2023, 10:31:35 AM
In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 06, 2023, 01:27:14 AM
In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.

No reason they should even be using solid lines at ORT gantries. Just have one reader over each lane, and a reader over the skip lines and shoulders.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 06, 2023, 12:42:45 PM
It's probably easier to detect vehicle class if people aren't changing lanes.  Plus they aren't infallible.  I got charged twice on the Thruway for the same gantry in the same trip once.  I think it might have sent the bill for the car in front of me to my account.  I try to leave extra space in front of me when going under toll gantries now for that reason.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on July 06, 2023, 03:02:58 PM
In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.

Yeah I have noticed the construction of these gantries. They look pretty orante with stone walls rather than just simple metal poles. Guess that’s our toll dollars at work.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 07, 2023, 12:08:11 AM
It's probably easier to detect vehicle class if people aren't changing lanes.  Plus they aren't infallible.  I got charged twice on the Thruway for the same gantry in the same trip once.  I think it might have sent the bill for the car in front of me to my account.  I try to leave extra space in front of me when going under toll gantries now for that reason.

A few locations where they don't use solid lines at ORT or Express Lanes:

NJ Turnpike Exit 1:  https://goo.gl/maps/fj7QbpXuR8Xz8Key8 .  You can see the passing zone and 3 readers overhead.   

FL's Ronald Reagan Turnpike:  https://goo.gl/maps/yNPhQ5vAUaUxGLF98.  Numerous readers are here to capture anyone, no matter where they're located. (This specific gantry doesn't exist now, but shows how it previously worked.)

Solid lines are only paint, and people can still easily pass over them.  So the multiple readers are still necessary, such as here: https://goo.gl/maps/yNPhQ5vAUaUxGLF98 .


Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on July 07, 2023, 10:10:42 AM
In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.

Yeah I have noticed the construction of these gantries. They look pretty orante with stone walls rather than just simple metal poles. Guess that’s our toll dollars at work.

I think they are stamped concrete, but yeah; more than "simple" poles. The service buildings certainly have some aesthetic treatments to them as well, I wonder if they will have any type of illumination (some on the NE Extension seem to have glass near the top of the structure).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 08, 2023, 05:05:27 PM
In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.

Yeah I have noticed the construction of these gantries. They look pretty orante with stone walls rather than just simple metal poles. Guess that’s our toll dollars at work.

I think they are stamped concrete, but yeah; more than "simple" poles. The service buildings certainly have some aesthetic treatments to them as well, I wonder if they will have any type of illumination (some on the NE Extension seem to have glass near the top of the structure).

That stone work is just prefab panels. You can see the edges of the panels from this building on PA Turnpike 576: https://goo.gl/maps/GtjaubBzxskZxmgV7

I don't recall the glass being lit up at night when I've driven by. They have a slanted roof for drainage and I assume just use the glass to let daylight into the building.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 08, 2023, 07:06:39 PM
I do wonder how they will transition the toll system because the gantries will charge based on axles and height, whereas the current system charges based on weight. If the eastern half will transition to gantries before the western half, would there be a gantry with weigh in motion scales at the westernmost gantry, or would they install height counters at the toll plazas in the west?

UPDATE: Seems the Turnpike doesn't even know yet.  I e-mailed them about it and received a canned response about the ORT system already on their website.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on July 18, 2023, 05:34:27 PM
The tradition continues!

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2023/07/pa-turnpike-will-increase-tolls-again-in-january-heres-how-much-it-will-cost-drivers.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 18, 2023, 08:36:23 PM
Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 18, 2023, 10:05:02 PM
Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

Beyond the PTC stating that they audit their finances, I am pretty sure that a true audit into PTC's finances is probably as likely as I-73 being built in Ohio.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 18, 2023, 10:12:58 PM
Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The problem is their debt service costs more than the rest of their expenditures combined. Their operating budget for FY2023-2024 is $438M. They have $250M for capital improvements. Debt service is $836M. So, even if they cut the capital projects, it wouldn't make much of a dent. It might allow them to skip raising rates for about 2 years, but that's about it.

Beyond the PTC stating that they audit their finances, I am pretty sure that a true audit into PTC's finances is probably as likely as I-73 being built in Ohio.

They are independently audited every year. It's required by the bondholders for their debt.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on July 19, 2023, 06:51:40 AM
Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The reason turnpike tolls go up every year is because of Act 44, where the turnpike is required to provide money to PennDOT for road and public transit projects. I don’t think execessive spending by the turnpike is the reason for the annual toll increases but I’m sure it doesn’t help.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 19, 2023, 12:48:16 PM
Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

Beyond the PTC stating that they audit their finances, I am pretty sure that a true audit into PTC's finances is probably as likely as I-73 being built in Ohio.

Here's the Audited Financial Report for 2022, with the Auditor's statement beginning on page 19:

https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/investor-relations/additional-resources-and-reports/2022-acfr.pdf?sfvrsn=65397ebe_4 .

What you are really asking is, is the PTC wisely spending their money? That's not what an annual fiscal audit looks into. The audit report above is simply verifying that their numbers for revenues, expenses, and other toll road monies and statistics are accurate. Even if you think the PTC is spending way too much money on certain projects or admin expenses or non-Turnpike related activity, as long as the PTC is properly documenting the outgoing monies, the audit won't turn up any issues.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 19, 2023, 01:01:42 PM
Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The reason turnpike tolls go up every year is because of Act 44, where the turnpike is required to provide money to PennDOT for road and public transit projects. I don’t think execessive spending by the turnpike is the reason for the annual toll increases but I’m sure it doesn’t help.
I'm aware, but those payments are over now, and why didn't they constrain their program when the payments were being made?  It's as if they just assumed that FHWA would eventually roll over on the tolling I-80 thing.  Foolish.

People should be able to drive around PA without having to slog through surface roads or pay sky high tolls.  Comparing the E-ZPass toll rates, the PTC costs triple what the Thruway costs.  Insane.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 19, 2023, 05:59:17 PM
Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The reason turnpike tolls go up every year is because of Act 44, where the turnpike is required to provide money to PennDOT for road and public transit projects. I don’t think execessive spending by the turnpike is the reason for the annual toll increases but I’m sure it doesn’t help.
I'm aware, but those payments are over now, and why didn't they constrain their program when the payments were being made?  It's as if they just assumed that FHWA would eventually roll over on the tolling I-80 thing.  Foolish.

The transfer payments to PennDOT aren't over. They're just reduced to $50M/year.

The full amount of $450M was originally to continue until 2057. It still happened for 15 years. You expected PTC to not do any capital construction for decades?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 19, 2023, 08:19:39 PM
Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

I don't say "no construction", but was envisioning something along the lines of NYSDOT's "preservation first" policy that heavily restricts the amount of money that can be used for anything more major than a mill and fill or bridge deck replacement (and most of it ends up to going to full bridge replacements).  There's a reason why NYSDOT doesn't do much in the way of widening and new construction these days, and it's not just the fact that Urbanists have more sway in solid blue states.  In fact, given the state of infrastructure needs vs. funding nationwide, perhaps FHWA should mandate a similar policy...

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 19, 2023, 11:17:28 PM
Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

I don't say "no construction", but was envisioning something along the lines of NYSDOT's "preservation first" policy that heavily restricts the amount of money that can be used for anything more major than a mill and fill or bridge deck replacement (and most of it ends up to going to full bridge replacements).  There's a reason why NYSDOT doesn't do much in the way of widening and new construction these days, and it's not just the fact that Urbanists have more sway in solid blue states.  In fact, given the state of infrastructure needs vs. funding nationwide, perhaps FHWA should mandate a similar policy...

(personal opinion)

From my experiences traveling on the NY Thruway, they're not exactly doing much to preserve the roadway.  It's pretty decrepit in numerous areas.  While the tolls are quite low compared to other toll roads, they may actually be a little too low, and routine maintenance such as regular road repavings are suffering as a result.  They should increase the tolls a bit to help increase the amount of roadway that can be repaved each year.

The preservation policies sound good at first, but it's really just a gimmicky way to push off needed capacity improvements to another administration down the road.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 20, 2023, 11:29:50 AM
Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

PTC didn't have the $450M to give to PennDOT, so it issued bonds each year to pay the amount. Debt service on these bonds is what has been primarily driving toll increases. The smaller $50 million payments are being made out of revenue, so the growth in debt service is starting to abate. That's why PTC expects toll increases to moderate to basically the rate of inflation here in a couple years.

PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths. I don't think it's unreasonable for PTC to be doing reconstruction and upgrades on it.

I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 20, 2023, 01:00:37 PM
Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

I don't say "no construction", but was envisioning something along the lines of NYSDOT's "preservation first" policy that heavily restricts the amount of money that can be used for anything more major than a mill and fill or bridge deck replacement (and most of it ends up to going to full bridge replacements).  There's a reason why NYSDOT doesn't do much in the way of widening and new construction these days, and it's not just the fact that Urbanists have more sway in solid blue states.  In fact, given the state of infrastructure needs vs. funding nationwide, perhaps FHWA should mandate a similar policy...

(personal opinion)

From my experiences traveling on the NY Thruway, they're not exactly doing much to preserve the roadway.  It's pretty decrepit in numerous areas.  While the tolls are quite low compared to other toll roads, they may actually be a little too low, and routine maintenance such as regular road repavings are suffering as a result.  They should increase the tolls a bit to help increase the amount of roadway that can be repaved each year.

The preservation policies sound good at first, but it's really just a gimmicky way to push off needed capacity improvements to another administration down the road.
Thruway doesn't seem that bad to me.  The two sections that stand out to me as having issues (28-29 and 39-40) seem to be related to bad materials, as 28-29 was done recently before developing weird potholes in the new layer and 39-40 has quite noticeable concrete deterioration despite being only a bit over a decade old.  I wouldn't think expecting everything to be immaculate is really reasonable, especially given the amount of snow upstate NY gets.

As for capacity increases, when funding is as constrained as it is in NY, that largely goes out the window (aside from whatever the governor prioritizes).  After all, it's not like a preservation strategy makes more money appear... just spreads out what is there further.  As for Thruway tolls, that's a political hot potato; every attempt at raising them angers the state legislature.  People around here are still mad that they didn't remove tolls in the 90s when the original bonds were paid off.  It doesn't help that the currently proposed increase, while reasonable for NY E-ZPass, jacks up tolls sky high for everyone else, especially those with out of state transponders, as the Thruway proposes eliminating that toll tier altogether and making them pay the bill by mail rate.

(personal opinion)

Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

PTC didn't have the $450M to give to PennDOT, so it issued bonds each year to pay the amount. Debt service on these bonds is what has been primarily driving toll increases. The smaller $50 million payments are being made out of revenue, so the growth in debt service is starting to abate. That's why PTC expects toll increases to moderate to basically the rate of inflation here in a couple years.

PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths. I don't think it's unreasonable for PTC to be doing reconstruction and upgrades on it.

I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.
When you're mentioning the Thruway, I-86, and US 219, are you talking about the reservation sections by chance?  If so, those had issues with just getting approval from the Seneca Nation just to get the work done.  Thruway and I-86 have been done, I believe US 219 is on the docket to be done soon.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 21, 2023, 08:11:21 AM
I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.
When you're mentioning the Thruway, I-86, and US 219, are you talking about the reservation sections by chance?  If so, those had issues with just getting approval from the Seneca Nation just to get the work done.  Thruway and I-86 have been done, I believe US 219 is on the docket to be done soon.

Nope. I recall some especially bad rides through the reservation sections in the past, but from more recent trips (this May for I-86 and US 219, 2021 for Thruway) the parts that I am thinking of were off-reservation. (West of Westfield for Thruway, around Olean for I-86, Limestone area for US 219.)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on July 21, 2023, 12:48:10 PM
I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.
When you're mentioning the Thruway, I-86, and US 219, are you talking about the reservation sections by chance?  If so, those had issues with just getting approval from the Seneca Nation just to get the work done.  Thruway and I-86 have been done, I believe US 219 is on the docket to be done soon.

Nope. I recall some especially bad rides through the reservation sections in the past, but from more recent trips (this May for I-86 and US 219, 2021 for Thruway) the parts that I am thinking of were off-reservation. (West of Westfield for Thruway, around Olean for I-86, Limestone area for US 219.)
I don't recall anything noteworthy on I-86 near Olean when I was last one it.  For the Thruway west of Westfield, I believe they've been doing work on it.  Regarding US 219, the section between the PA border and I-86 does indeed enter the reservation.  The reservation portion is under construction scheduled to be finished next year (project limits from one mile south of the reservation to I-86).  South of Limestone has been done, as has SB between the the current project and Limestone.  NB between Limestone and the current project is scheduled for 2024/25.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on July 21, 2023, 06:19:01 PM
Drove the Thru way WB from 219 to Irving right at one year ago.  It was horrible.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: thenetwork on July 21, 2023, 07:04:40 PM
Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 21, 2023, 07:19:53 PM
Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...

The Turnpike is kinda stuck in a quandary, IMO.  The existing roadway is 2 lanes wide with no left shoulder, and often both the overpasses and roadway have exceeded their expected lifespan and are in need of repair.  They could either widen the roadway to allow for a wider left shoulder but still keep it at 2 lanes, or for a relatively marginal cost, widen it to 3 lanes wide each way.  We often hear about the issue when 2 trucks are micro-passing each other; the 3 lane widenings eliminate this bothersome issue.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on July 24, 2023, 03:32:42 PM
The Turnpike is kinda stuck in a quandary, IMO.  The existing roadway is 2 lanes wide with no left shoulder, and often both the overpasses and roadway have exceeded their expected lifespan and are in need of repair.  They could either widen the roadway to allow for a wider left shoulder but still keep it at 2 lanes, or for a relatively marginal cost, widen it to 3 lanes wide each way.  We often hear about the issue when 2 trucks are micro-passing each other; the 3 lane widenings eliminate this bothersome issue.

It seems that was a lesson they learned when they did the first segments of full reconstruction, which were just to 2 lanes in each direction with wider inside shoulders  (and occasionally a truck climbing lane in the ridges) - that even though it was a bit more expensive, it was still of a greater value to just do it then.  Also, during the reconstruction, having the even wider footprint allows them to more easily maintain 4 lanes of traffic during the work.

I do recall a newspaper article in the late 90's early 00's about the reconstruction between the Warrendale toll plaza and about 2-3 miles west of the PA-8 interchange.   It stated at the time that the turnpike was going to be doing full reconstruction in a couple of years, and was going to have a "grassy median" once done.   At some point between that article and when they actually rebuilt that section, the PTC decided it was just as well to make it 6 lanes with the concrete median barrier.


I think the PTC website had a video explaining the reasoning and how they do the full reconstructions.  But that was a few years ago now (maybe more), and I don't know if they still have it.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 24, 2023, 04:09:20 PM
The Turnpike is kinda stuck in a quandary, IMO.  The existing roadway is 2 lanes wide with no left shoulder, and often both the overpasses and roadway have exceeded their expected lifespan and are in need of repair.  They could either widen the roadway to allow for a wider left shoulder but still keep it at 2 lanes, or for a relatively marginal cost, widen it to 3 lanes wide each way.  We often hear about the issue when 2 trucks are micro-passing each other; the 3 lane widenings eliminate this bothersome issue.

It seems that was a lesson they learned when they did the first segments of full reconstruction, which were just to 2 lanes in each direction with wider inside shoulders  (and occasionally a truck climbing lane in the ridges) - that even though it was a bit more expensive, it was still of a greater value to just do it then.  Also, during the reconstruction, having the even wider footprint allows them to more easily maintain 4 lanes of traffic during the work.

I do recall a newspaper article in the late 90's early 00's about the reconstruction between the Warrendale toll plaza and about 2-3 miles west of the PA-8 interchange.   It stated at the time that the turnpike was going to be doing full reconstruction in a couple of years, and was going to have a "grassy median" once done.   At some point between that article and when they actually rebuilt that section, the PTC decided it was just as well to make it 6 lanes with the concrete median barrier.


I think the PTC website had a video explaining the reasoning and how they do the full reconstructions.  But that was a few years ago now (maybe more), and I don't know if they still have it.

Unfortunately the first sections they did were in the mountains with the I-70 overlap, which could really use the third lane.  Watch those be the last to be widened in like 30-40 years.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on July 27, 2023, 02:11:59 AM
PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths.

Can somebody please show me an example of an acceleration or deceleration lane on the Pennsylvania Turnpike that's too short? The right of way is narrow on the four-lane segments of the Turnpike, but even back in the 1980s and 1990s, I cannot, for the life of me, recall any acceleration or deceleration lanes that were too short.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on July 27, 2023, 05:31:03 AM
PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths.

Can somebody please show me an example of an acceleration or deceleration lane on the Pennsylvania Turnpike that's too short? The right of way is narrow on the four-lane segments of the Turnpike, but even back in the 1980s and 1990s, I cannot, for the life of me, recall any acceleration or deceleration lanes that were too short.

The ramp from I-476 north to I-276 east in Plymouth Meeting is too short IMO. But by and large, the Turnpike accel/decel lanes aren’t as bad as some other PA highways.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 27, 2023, 08:44:55 AM
PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths.

Can somebody please show me an example of an acceleration or deceleration lane on the Pennsylvania Turnpike that's too short? The right of way is narrow on the four-lane segments of the Turnpike, but even back in the 1980s and 1990s, I cannot, for the life of me, recall any acceleration or deceleration lanes that were too short.

The ramp from I-476 north to I-276 east in Plymouth Meeting is too short IMO. But by and large, the Turnpike accel/decel lanes aren’t as bad as some other PA highways.

You are correct about that ramp - it is the source of major afternoon rush hour backups on both highways
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on July 27, 2023, 09:10:38 AM
This is really a general question, but since the term was mentioned here:  Could someone point me to an article explaining "horizontal alignment" and "roadway geometry"?  Other than banking on a curve, I don't know what's being referred to even though the terms are often used here and in DOT documentation.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: cockroachking on July 27, 2023, 09:16:10 AM
This is really a general question, but since the term was mentioned here:  Could someone point me to an article explaining "horizontal alignment" and "roadway geometry"?  Other than banking on a curve, I don't know what's being referred to even though the terms are often used here and in DOT documentation.
Horizontal Alignment (https://archive.unescwa.org/horizontal-alignment#:~:text=Title%20English%3A-,horizontal%20alignment,tangents%20connected%20by%20circular%20curves.)
Roadway Geometry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_design_of_roads)

Hope those help.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on July 27, 2023, 09:34:48 AM
This is really a general question, but since the term was mentioned here:  Could someone point me to an article explaining "horizontal alignment" and "roadway geometry"?  Other than banking on a curve, I don't know what's being referred to even though the terms are often used here and in DOT documentation.
Horizontal Alignment (https://archive.unescwa.org/horizontal-alignment#:~:text=Title%20English%3A-,horizontal%20alignment,tangents%20connected%20by%20circular%20curves.)
Roadway Geometry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_design_of_roads)

Hope those help.

Thanks; I'll try these.  I've been searching but haven't found layperson explanations; only more terminology.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on July 28, 2023, 02:00:07 PM
It's a little OT but it is disappointing to see New York and New Jersey add all these modern food options to their service plazas while the PA Turnpike seems to have stuck with the same Burger King and Roy Rogers options (with few other options at some plazas).  HMS Host's roadway plaza business was acquired by Applegreen, who is modernizing the NY Thruway plazas.  Even the NJ Turnpike now has options like Shake Shack and Chick-Fil-A.  I'd kill for one of those or a Panera on the PA Turnpike.

The only change I have seen in PA, meanwhile, is the replacement of some Starbucks locations with a Dunkin/Baskin Robbins combination.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on July 28, 2023, 02:35:55 PM
It's a little OT but it is disappointing to see New York and New Jersey add all these modern food options to their service plazas while the PA Turnpike seems to have stuck with the same Burger King and Roy Rogers options (with few other options at some plazas).  HMS Host's roadway plaza business was acquired by Applegreen, who is modernizing the NY Thruway plazas.  Even the NJ Turnpike now has options like Shake Shack and Chick-Fil-A.  I'd kill for one of those or a Panera on the PA Turnpike.

The only change I have seen in PA, meanwhile, is the replacement of some Starbucks locations with a Dunkin/Baskin Robbins combination.
Take a look at the crowds in some of the new Thruway plazas.  Be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on July 28, 2023, 02:59:16 PM
Applegreen inherited these plazas too -- it seems like since the pandemic not all of the locations within a plaza reopened (at least on the NE Extension).

Still chuckle that Sunoco was picked for the statewide-contract due to its PA roots (/marketing BS) but the C-store division was sold to 7-11. How to make the fanatics of Sheetz or Wawa agree...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on July 28, 2023, 06:49:27 PM
Applegreen inherited these plazas too -- it seems like since the pandemic not all of the locations within a plaza reopened (at least on the NE Extension).

Still chuckle that Sunoco was picked for the statewide-contract due to its PA roots (/marketing BS) but the C-store division was sold to 7-11. How to make the fanatics of Sheetz or Wawa agree...

It would be cool if Sheetz and Wawa could divide up the convenience store/gas station contracts on the PA Turnpike. Have Sheetz operate at all the plazas on the mainline west of the Susquehanna River and have Wawa operate at all the plazas on the mainline east of the Susquehanna River and on the Northeast Extension.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 28, 2023, 07:14:57 PM
Applegreen inherited these plazas too -- it seems like since the pandemic not all of the locations within a plaza reopened (at least on the NE Extension).

Still chuckle that Sunoco was picked for the statewide-contract due to its PA roots (/marketing BS) but the C-store division was sold to 7-11. How to make the fanatics of Sheetz or Wawa agree...

It would be cool if Sheetz and Wawa could divide up the convenience store/gas station contracts on the PA Turnpike. Have Sheetz operate at all the plazas on the mainline west of the Susquehanna River and have Wawa operate at all the plazas on the mainline east of the Susquehanna River and on the Northeast Extension.

Wawa has always stated they want nothing to do with private concession contracts. They won't go in airports, ballparks, stadiums, arenas, turnpikes, etc. Well I don't follow Sheetz as closely, they seem to have the same attitudes.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on July 28, 2023, 11:27:23 PM
Applegreen inherited these plazas too -- it seems like since the pandemic not all of the locations within a plaza reopened (at least on the NE Extension).

Still chuckle that Sunoco was picked for the statewide-contract due to its PA roots (/marketing BS) but the C-store division was sold to 7-11. How to make the fanatics of Sheetz or Wawa agree...

It would be cool if Sheetz and Wawa could divide up the convenience store/gas station contracts on the PA Turnpike. Have Sheetz operate at all the plazas on the mainline west of the Susquehanna River and have Wawa operate at all the plazas on the mainline east of the Susquehanna River and on the Northeast Extension.

Wawa has always stated they want nothing to do with private concession contracts. They won't go in airports, ballparks, stadiums, arenas, turnpikes, etc. Well I don't follow Sheetz as closely, they seem to have the same attitudes.

That’s a shame because this could be a lucrative business for Wawa or Sheetz to serve a captive audience.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on July 29, 2023, 07:13:59 AM
Applegreen inherited these plazas too -- it seems like since the pandemic not all of the locations within a plaza reopened (at least on the NE Extension).

Still chuckle that Sunoco was picked for the statewide-contract due to its PA roots (/marketing BS) but the C-store division was sold to 7-11. How to make the fanatics of Sheetz or Wawa agree...

It would be cool if Sheetz and Wawa could divide up the convenience store/gas station contracts on the PA Turnpike. Have Sheetz operate at all the plazas on the mainline west of the Susquehanna River and have Wawa operate at all the plazas on the mainline east of the Susquehanna River and on the Northeast Extension.

Wawa has always stated they want nothing to do with private concession contracts. They won't go in airports, ballparks, stadiums, arenas, turnpikes, etc. Well I don't follow Sheetz as closely, they seem to have the same attitudes.

That’s a shame because this could be a lucrative business for Wawa or Sheetz to serve a captive audience.

It would indeed be cool if Wawa and Sheetz would open at least some stores in the Turnpike. It would add to the uniqueness of the Turnpike experience and introduce them to many travelers who would otherwise not know or have a chance to visit them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 31, 2023, 12:29:49 PM
Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...
I would think about those reconstructions as jacking up asset value before sale. Someone will have to bail out PTC out of debt - and that may not be the state.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on July 31, 2023, 12:53:30 PM
Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...
I would think about those reconstructions as jacking up asset value before sale. Someone will have to bail out PTC out of debt - and that may not be the state.

I can't see any scenario where that would happen. It was floated during the Rendell administration and pretty soundly shot down. Considering that a buyer/lessor would have to pay for the cost of the assets plus the debt service on those assets, tolls would only be driven higher. It's a non-starter.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kalvado on July 31, 2023, 01:04:55 PM
Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...
I would think about those reconstructions as jacking up asset value before sale. Someone will have to bail out PTC out of debt - and that may not be the state.

I can't see any scenario where that would happen. It was floated during the Rendell administration and pretty soundly shot down. Considering that a buyer/lessor would have to pay for the cost of the assets plus the debt service on those assets, tolls would only be driven higher. It's a non-starter.
It's called bankruptcy - bond holder gets as much money as they can for the asset. Or PTC bonds are backed by state government?
Good thing if PA  has $10B they don't need and can use for bailout, but looks like they expect budget to go into red in a few years as well. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on August 01, 2023, 08:58:24 AM
Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...
I would think about those reconstructions as jacking up asset value before sale. Someone will have to bail out PTC out of debt - and that may not be the state.

I can't see any scenario where that would happen. It was floated during the Rendell administration and pretty soundly shot down. Considering that a buyer/lessor would have to pay for the cost of the assets plus the debt service on those assets, tolls would only be driven higher. It's a non-starter.
It's called bankruptcy - bond holder gets as much money as they can for the asset. Or PTC bonds are backed by state government?
Good thing if PA  has $10B they don't need and can use for bailout, but looks like they expect budget to go into red in a few years as well. 

PTC's debt are revenue bonds, not general obligation bonds. That's the reason why state governments create a standalone agency for issuing debt.

It makes no logical sense for PTC to try to pump up the value of its assets expecting that bondholders will take over the assets. PTC doesn't benefit from that scenario.

While PTC has a large debt load, there's no indication it is incapable of servicing it. As long as they can keep making payments as scheduled, they're fine. There are places in PTC's budget (like construction projects) where it could avoid or defer spending and still remain in compliance with its bond covenants if it was experiencing difficulty servicing its debt. The fact they're continuing to do reconstruction projects suggests this is not a problem.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on August 09, 2023, 08:45:59 AM
In 1983 or circa, I remember US 611 was still signed on Willow Grove guides.

Does anyone remember if PA 309 was still erroneously signed as 309 in the 1983 era?

I never made it west of Exit 27, so I never got to see Exit 26 guides until the late eighties when PTC had all 60’s era guides replaced by then.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wilbur_the_goose on August 26, 2023, 06:53:19 PM
We're seeing a number of projects under Turnpike bridges here in Chester County.   They're digging trenches and covering them on the roads under the Turnpike bridges.

Any idea what this could be?    Mileposts near 312.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on August 26, 2023, 07:05:57 PM
We're seeing a number of projects under Turnpike bridges here in Chester County.   They're digging trenches and covering them on the roads under the Turnpike bridges.

Any idea what this could be?    Mileposts near 312.

Presumably lengthening bridges for future 6-lane widening.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 26, 2023, 09:50:39 PM
A contact was let a few months back to widen either 308 - 312 or 312-316 to 6 lanes with full reconstruction
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on August 27, 2023, 03:09:19 AM
https://www.wtae.com/article/new-interchange-for-pennsylvania-turnpike-one-step-closer/44911884

New interchange soon to come.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on August 27, 2023, 12:41:47 PM
https://www.wtae.com/article/new-interchange-for-pennsylvania-turnpike-one-step-closer/44911884

New interchange soon to come.
“Possible because Act 44 expired…”
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on August 27, 2023, 05:40:00 PM
https://www.wtae.com/article/new-interchange-for-pennsylvania-turnpike-one-step-closer/44911884

New interchange soon to come.
“Possible because Act 44 expired…”

So does this mean we’re gonna be seeing more road improvement projects to the Pennsylvania Turnpike in the coming years since they don’t have to divert their toll revenue to SEPTA?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on August 28, 2023, 12:27:45 PM
https://www.wtae.com/article/new-interchange-for-pennsylvania-turnpike-one-step-closer/44911884

New interchange soon to come.
“Possible because Act 44 expired…”

So does this mean we’re gonna be seeing more road improvement projects to the Pennsylvania Turnpike in the coming years since they don’t have to divert their toll revenue to SEPTA?

PTC has indicated they intend to step up capital improvements but they still have a monstrous debt load to service, so I wouldn't expect to see a ton more construction.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr_Northside on August 29, 2023, 01:40:39 PM
We're seeing a number of projects under Turnpike bridges here in Chester County.   They're digging trenches and covering them on the roads under the Turnpike bridges.

Any idea what this could be?    Mileposts near 312.

I'm not that familiar with that part of the state, but I know the PTC was planning on running a fiber line/network/trunk along their system.   If it's just trenches and covering them, could it be that?  (I know they are doing the eastern part of the state first, so maybe they have already done that, and this is for a full reconstruction/widening)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 30, 2023, 02:08:13 AM
Any visible progress on the Beaver River bridge project?

They appear to be moving erf (https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction/design-construction-details) at the site of the project now.  :sombrero:

It's a little OT but it is disappointing to see New York and New Jersey add all these modern food options to their service plazas while the PA Turnpike seems to have stuck with the same Burger King and Roy Rogers options (with few other options at some plazas).  HMS Host's roadway plaza business was acquired by Applegreen, who is modernizing the NY Thruway plazas.  Even the NJ Turnpike now has options like Shake Shack and Chick-Fil-A.  I'd kill for one of those or a Panera on the PA Turnpike.

The only change I have seen in PA, meanwhile, is the replacement of some Starbucks locations with a Dunkin/Baskin Robbins combination.
Take a look at the crowds in some of the new Thruway plazas.  Be careful what you wish for.

Too busy, or not busy enough? :confused:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 30, 2023, 02:15:59 AM
By the way, some BIG NEWS from earlier this year that nobody posted about: The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission has finally moved forward (https://www.unionprogress.com/2023/01/08/turnpike-moving-ahead-with-plan-to-build-bypass-around-allegheny-tunnel-in-somerset-county/) with the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel replacement project. The "gray cut" is the chosen alternative, and the project is now in preliminary design.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on August 30, 2023, 07:43:26 AM
By the way, some BIG NEWS from earlier this year that nobody posted about: The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission has finally moved forward (https://www.unionprogress.com/2023/01/08/turnpike-moving-ahead-with-plan-to-build-bypass-around-allegheny-tunnel-in-somerset-county/) with the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel replacement project. The "gray cut" is the chosen alternative, and the project is now in preliminary design.

I wonder if the bypassed tunnel and roadway will become a trail similar to the section through the Rays Hill and Sideling Hill tunnels that was bypassed.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on August 30, 2023, 12:50:09 PM
Any visible progress on the Beaver River bridge project?

They appear to be moving erf (https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction/design-construction-details) at the site of the project now.  :sombrero:

It's a little OT but it is disappointing to see New York and New Jersey add all these modern food options to their service plazas while the PA Turnpike seems to have stuck with the same Burger King and Roy Rogers options (with few other options at some plazas).  HMS Host's roadway plaza business was acquired by Applegreen, who is modernizing the NY Thruway plazas.  Even the NJ Turnpike now has options like Shake Shack and Chick-Fil-A.  I'd kill for one of those or a Panera on the PA Turnpike.

The only change I have seen in PA, meanwhile, is the replacement of some Starbucks locations with a Dunkin/Baskin Robbins combination.
Take a look at the crowds in some of the new Thruway plazas.  Be careful what you wish for.

Too busy, or not busy enough? :confused:
They're somewhat cramped, especially the small size ones where the food line, aisle, and seating area are all the same space, and the number of bathrooms are limited.  The big ones are better on that front, but there are only so many on the system.  Of course, it doesn't help that half of them are closed right now.

The times I've been at them, the CFA line has been fairly long even in the middle of the afternoon well after the lunch rush.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on August 31, 2023, 09:40:06 PM
Any visible progress on the Beaver River bridge project?

They appear to be moving erf (https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction/design-construction-details) at the site of the project now.  :sombrero:

It's a little OT but it is disappointing to see New York and New Jersey add all these modern food options to their service plazas while the PA Turnpike seems to have stuck with the same Burger King and Roy Rogers options (with few other options at some plazas).  HMS Host's roadway plaza business was acquired by Applegreen, who is modernizing the NY Thruway plazas.  Even the NJ Turnpike now has options like Shake Shack and Chick-Fil-A.  I'd kill for one of those or a Panera on the PA Turnpike.

The only change I have seen in PA, meanwhile, is the replacement of some Starbucks locations with a Dunkin/Baskin Robbins combination.
Take a look at the crowds in some of the new Thruway plazas.  Be careful what you wish for.

Too busy, or not busy enough? :confused:
They're somewhat cramped, especially the small size ones where the food line, aisle, and seating area are all the same space, and the number of bathrooms are limited.  The big ones are better on that front, but there are only so many on the system.  Of course, it doesn't help that half of them are closed right now.

The times I've been at them, the CFA line has been fairly long even in the middle of the afternoon well after the lunch rush.

Then maybe it's a good thing the Pennsylvania Turnpike doesn't have the "cool" restaurants at its service plazas, because every time I've been past the South Somerset Service Plaza, it's been so busy that vehicles were parked almost out to the gore of the exit ramp.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2023, 10:37:58 PM
Any visible progress on the Beaver River bridge project?

They appear to be moving erf (https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction/design-construction-details) at the site of the project now.  :sombrero:

It's a little OT but it is disappointing to see New York and New Jersey add all these modern food options to their service plazas while the PA Turnpike seems to have stuck with the same Burger King and Roy Rogers options (with few other options at some plazas).  HMS Host's roadway plaza business was acquired by Applegreen, who is modernizing the NY Thruway plazas.  Even the NJ Turnpike now has options like Shake Shack and Chick-Fil-A.  I'd kill for one of those or a Panera on the PA Turnpike.

The only change I have seen in PA, meanwhile, is the replacement of some Starbucks locations with a Dunkin/Baskin Robbins combination.
Take a look at the crowds in some of the new Thruway plazas.  Be careful what you wish for.

Too busy, or not busy enough? :confused:
They're somewhat cramped, especially the small size ones where the food line, aisle, and seating area are all the same space, and the number of bathrooms are limited.  The big ones are better on that front, but there are only so many on the system.  Of course, it doesn't help that half of them are closed right now.

The times I've been at them, the CFA line has been fairly long even in the middle of the afternoon well after the lunch rush.

Even after they're all up and running, people will still be trying to sit while having others walk right past them uncomfortably close.  Imagine all the people walking in saying "Where's the bathroom" and kids shouting "Mom I gotta peeee!" while people are trying to sit and eat their food.  It's just a baffling design. 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 01, 2023, 04:00:34 PM
Any visible progress on the Beaver River bridge project?

They appear to be moving erf (https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/mileposts-12-14-total-reconstruction/design-construction-details) at the site of the project now.  :sombrero:

It's a little OT but it is disappointing to see New York and New Jersey add all these modern food options to their service plazas while the PA Turnpike seems to have stuck with the same Burger King and Roy Rogers options (with few other options at some plazas).  HMS Host's roadway plaza business was acquired by Applegreen, who is modernizing the NY Thruway plazas.  Even the NJ Turnpike now has options like Shake Shack and Chick-Fil-A.  I'd kill for one of those or a Panera on the PA Turnpike.

The only change I have seen in PA, meanwhile, is the replacement of some Starbucks locations with a Dunkin/Baskin Robbins combination.
Take a look at the crowds in some of the new Thruway plazas.  Be careful what you wish for.

Too busy, or not busy enough? :confused:
They're somewhat cramped, especially the small size ones where the food line, aisle, and seating area are all the same space, and the number of bathrooms are limited.  The big ones are better on that front, but there are only so many on the system.  Of course, it doesn't help that half of them are closed right now.

The times I've been at them, the CFA line has been fairly long even in the middle of the afternoon well after the lunch rush.

Then maybe it's a good thing the Pennsylvania Turnpike doesn't have the "cool" restaurants at its service plazas, because every time I've been past the South Somerset Service Plaza, it's been so busy that vehicles were parked almost out to the gore of the exit ramp.

The ones along the I-70 overlap get really crowded, especially during holiday travel periods. However, the others are generally much more tolerable, even the bi-directional ones
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 06, 2023, 04:10:16 PM
In the Turnpike system, what road is designated starting with H?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on September 06, 2023, 07:53:49 PM
In the Turnpike system, what road is designated starting with H?

I believe that's how the I-95 section is designated.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on September 12, 2023, 10:09:32 PM
https://www.paturnpike.com/news/details/2023/09/07/pa-turnpike-honors-truckers-for-2023-national-truck-driver-appreciation-week How cute. I’m sure the truckers would rather want discounts on tolls than free coffee and a donut.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on September 13, 2023, 09:15:57 AM
https://www.paturnpike.com/news/details/2023/09/07/pa-turnpike-honors-truckers-for-2023-national-truck-driver-appreciation-week How cute. I’m sure the truckers would rather want discounts on tolls than free coffee and a donut.

Sounds exactly like management throwing a pizza party for pulling overtime rather than, you know, paying more  :-D

I also didn't realize that Dunkin was starting to replace Starbucks at some of the turnpike service plazas - presumably related to Applegreen taking over from HMSHost? I noticed the same thing on the Maine Turnpike - when I stopped at West Gardiner in late May the Starbucks had already closed and only BK & Popeyes were open, then when I checked their website a few weeks later I saw that a Dunkin had opened. Applegreen seems to be big on alternating Starbucks & Dunkin as the coffee joint, based on how the new Thruway plazas are shaping up.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on September 13, 2023, 09:27:54 AM
https://www.paturnpike.com/news/details/2023/09/07/pa-turnpike-honors-truckers-for-2023-national-truck-driver-appreciation-week How cute. I’m sure the truckers would rather want discounts on tolls than free coffee and a donut.

Sounds exactly like management throwing a pizza party for pulling overtime rather than, you know, paying more  :-D

I also didn't realize that Dunkin was starting to replace Starbucks at some of the turnpike service plazas - presumably related to Applegreen taking over from HMSHost? I noticed the same thing on the Maine Turnpike - when I stopped at West Gardiner in late May the Starbucks had already closed and only BK & Popeyes were open, then when I checked their website a few weeks later I saw that a Dunkin had opened. Applegreen seems to be big on alternating Starbucks & Dunkin as the coffee joint, based on how the new Thruway plazas are shaping up.

I wonder if Starbucks is easing itself out of the highway rest area business, or if it is being eased out of that business.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Flyer78 on September 13, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Could also be, in PA's case - aging out of contracts. (Already 15 years for Allentown, for example)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 14, 2023, 01:21:39 AM
Last weekend, I took a drive on the Pennsylvania Turnpike from Irwin to Somerset, and I've determined that the segment from MM 74 to MM 99 should be relatively easy to expand to six lanes. The interior shoulders have a consistent 10' width on both sides of the median barrier along the entire segment, except for a mile or so on both sides of the New Stanton interchange, where it narrows to 4'. Also, once the segment from MM 99 to MM 109 is finished with its reconstruction and six-lane widening, the only segment with only two lanes eastbound from Irwin to Somerset will be from MM 74 to MM 83. On the other hand, there are only two lanes westbound along the entire segment from MM 74 to MM 99, so that's where most of the work will have to be. Also, about half of the overpasses (six?) on that segment will have to be replaced since they can't fit six lanes underneath. As for the narrower median near the New Stanton interchange, I'm betting that'll be dealt with if there are plans to reconfigure the interchange. Likewise, based on Google Street View east of the Somerset interchange, replacing three overpasses and adding an extra lane in each direction is all that'd be needed once the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel bypass is built, because the interior shoulders are a consistent 10' there as well.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: kurumi on September 14, 2023, 01:26:02 AM
The Turnpike got called out in a Reddit thread for being fairly expensive end to end: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/16haspw/most_expensive_toll_roads_in_the_us/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 14, 2023, 08:46:02 AM
The Turnpike got called out in a Reddit thread for being fairly expensive end to end: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/16haspw/most_expensive_toll_roads_in_the_us/

I think it qualifies as the most expensive long-distance toll road in the country.  On a per-mile basis, some of these short toll roads are more expensive, but the PTC is comparing apples & oranges when it states that.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Alps on September 14, 2023, 05:11:17 PM
The Turnpike got called out in a Reddit thread for being fairly expensive end to end: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/16haspw/most_expensive_toll_roads_in_the_us/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/16haspw/most_expensive_toll_roads_in_the_us/)

I think it qualifies as the most expensive long-distance toll road in the country.  On a per-mile basis, some of these short toll roads are more expensive, but the PTC is comparing apples & oranges when it states that.
A single toll booth is infinite dollars per mile when you pass under the reader.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 14, 2023, 10:38:42 PM
So then....is 99-109 officially  completed?
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 16, 2023, 01:26:55 AM
So then....is 99-109 officially  completed?

Not yet.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: storm2k on September 17, 2023, 01:46:12 PM
Drove the Turnpike from Bensalem to Valley Forge yesterday, and saw several of the ORT gantries in various states of install. I was looking at the PTC's website (https://www.paturnpike.com/all-electronic-tolling/open-road-tolling) about ORT, and I notice that there are no gantries planned east of the one at MP 348.7 which is between Bensalem and Willow Grove. Is there not one east of there because they're counting the existing Neshaminy Falls plaza (which they are going to need to reconstruct at whatever point they finally 3-lane that segment) as an ORT point since it already has the infrastructure in place? I would imagine they would want at least one last ORT point east of Bensalem before they get to the 95 interchange.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on September 17, 2023, 02:23:10 PM
Drove the Turnpike from Bensalem to Valley Forge yesterday, and saw several of the ORT gantries in various states of install. I was looking at the PTC's website (https://www.paturnpike.com/all-electronic-tolling/open-road-tolling) about ORT, and I notice that there are no gantries planned east of the one at MP 348.7 which is between Bensalem and Willow Grove. Is there not one east of there because they're counting the existing Neshaminy Falls plaza (which they are going to need to reconstruct at whatever point they finally 3-lane that segment) as an ORT point since it already has the infrastructure in place? I would imagine they would want at least one last ORT point east of Bensalem before they get to the 95 interchange.

I think Neshaminy Falls will remain the end of the toll based system (other than the bridge). That would also mean travel between US 1 and Street Road would be toll free.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on September 18, 2023, 05:06:58 PM
Drove the Turnpike from Bensalem to Valley Forge yesterday, and saw several of the ORT gantries in various states of install. I was looking at the PTC's website (https://www.paturnpike.com/all-electronic-tolling/open-road-tolling) about ORT, and I notice that there are no gantries planned east of the one at MP 348.7 which is between Bensalem and Willow Grove. Is there not one east of there because they're counting the existing Neshaminy Falls plaza (which they are going to need to reconstruct at whatever point they finally 3-lane that segment) as an ORT point since it already has the infrastructure in place? I would imagine they would want at least one last ORT point east of Bensalem before they get to the 95 interchange.

I think Neshaminy Falls will remain the end of the toll based system (other than the bridge). That would also mean travel between US 1 and Street Road would be toll free.

"Street Road" could be the name of a Parkway Drive cover band. :sombrero:
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2023, 02:14:28 PM
Disclaimer: I haven’t yet been to the Northeast which includes driving the PA turnpike.

That said I saw a map on a Facebook group awhile ago(just now getting around to posting about it)pointing out the most expensive toll roads to drive across by state and PA turnpike took the cake by far and large. It claimed it was almost $200 to drive the entire road end to end.

Two questions: is that true? Is it is; why does the road seem to be in such shitty condition? Penn dot gets a lot to crap about having bad roads but I’ll reserve judgement until I see it for myself. Until then, if they really do have bad roads, where is all that money going if it really does cost that much to drive it? It should be one of the best roads in the world.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on October 12, 2023, 04:06:20 PM
Disclaimer: I haven’t yet been to the Northeast which includes driving the PA turnpike.

That said I saw a map on a Facebook group awhile ago(just now getting around to posting about it)pointing out the most expensive toll roads to drive across by state and PA turnpike took the cake by far and large. It claimed it was almost $200 to drive the entire road end to end.

Two questions: is that true? Is it is; why does the road seem to be in such shitty condition? Penn dot gets a lot to crap about having bad roads but I’ll reserve judgement until I see it for myself. Until then, if they really do have bad roads, where is all that money going if it really does cost that much to drive it? It should be one of the best roads in the world.

https://www.paturnpike.com/toll-calculator/toll-schedules
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: wanderer2575 on October 12, 2023, 04:18:52 PM
Disclaimer: I haven’t yet been to the Northeast which includes driving the PA turnpike.

That said I saw a map on a Facebook group awhile ago(just now getting around to posting about it)pointing out the most expensive toll roads to drive across by state and PA turnpike took the cake by far and large. It claimed it was almost $200 to drive the entire road end to end.

Two questions: is that true? Is it is; why does the road seem to be in such shitty condition? Penn dot gets a lot to crap about having bad roads but I’ll reserve judgement until I see it for myself. Until then, if they really do have bad roads, where is all that money going if it really does cost that much to drive it? It should be one of the best roads in the world.

This explains at least part of the answer:  https://www.paturnpike.com/news/the-road-ahead/july-2021-transit-payment
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2023, 04:37:01 PM
That’s good news. Hopefully they can start rebuilding it to modern standards. I’m guessing some parts are due for a six lane treatment…
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 12, 2023, 04:41:05 PM
Disclaimer: I haven’t yet been to the Northeast which includes driving the PA turnpike.

That said I saw a map on a Facebook group awhile ago(just now getting around to posting about it)pointing out the most expensive toll roads to drive across by state and PA turnpike took the cake by far and large. It claimed it was almost $200 to drive the entire road end to end.

Two questions: is that true? Is it is; why does the road seem to be in such shitty condition? Penn dot gets a lot to crap about having bad roads but I’ll reserve judgement until I see it for myself. Until then, if they really do have bad roads, where is all that money going if it really does cost that much to drive it? It should be one of the best roads in the world.

Honestly, seems like an unfair statement to say what you think you read (you overestimated by nearly $100 to $150, depending on your payment option), the agency (PTC, not PennDOT) and the road condition, which you never drove. 

Sure, I get you disclaimed it by saying you haven't driven it and reserve judgement, but reading Facebook and drawing conclusions gets you a predictable result...which is an incorrect result.

If you drive from Ohio to New Jersey, the EZ Pass toll is $52.10, the Pay-by-Plate toll is $105.30.  If you drive from Ohio to the Northeast Extension, the EZ Pass toll is $54.90, the Pay-by-Plate toll is $124.90 (I may be off a few bucks, but that's pretty close).  It's also slightly more expensive to drive it west to east (which are the tolls shown here) than it is to drive it east-to-west, due to the difference in fares at the mainline toll plazas near the Ohio and NJ borders.

The road condition, for all intents and purposes, isn't bad.  It's a bit worse in the Philly region due to the usage and congestion.  The older 2 lane sections can feel a bit tight, especially without the left shoulder.  But the pavement conditions are generally pretty good.

Part of the reason why it's the most expensive, is because it's also one of the longest toll roads in the US.  But when brought down to the cost per mile, it's not the most expensive by quite a bit.  The average cost for EZ Pass tollpayers for the max length is around 15 cents a mile.  If you pay toll-by-plate, it's about 30 cents per mile.  Delaware's I-95 section of the Delaware Turnpike is about 36 cents per mile (11 or so miles, $4.00 toll). 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2023, 04:42:52 PM
^^^ thanks for the explanation. That was the reason I asked not to pass judgement but to gain insight on actual situation from a road community such as AARoads and not a Facebook group.

But again thank you for explaining it and I’m excited to begin exploring the NE for the first time starting next year.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 12, 2023, 04:51:39 PM
Aside from the cost...it can be a pretty road to drive. Once. In each direction.  But after that, it's basically what you expect a 300+ mile road to be - fairly boring to drive.  And while a certain former poster may swear that motorists flip their cars on some of the tight turns, there are a few turns that are fairly tight as you go thru the mountains. But otherwise, unless you're driving it on a holiday weekend, or a summer weekend, it's not too bad to drive.  Just make sure you get yourself an EZ Pass if you don't already have one.
 
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tmoore952 on October 12, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Aside from the cost...it can be a pretty road to drive. Once. In each direction.  But after that, it's basically what you expect a 300+ mile road to be - fairly boring to drive.  And while a certain former poster may swear that motorists flip their cars on some of the tight turns, there are a few turns that are fairly tight as you go thru the mountains. But otherwise, unless you're driving it on a holiday weekend, or a summer weekend, it's not too bad to drive.  Just make sure you get yourself an EZ Pass if you don't already have one.

The westernmost 226 or so miles from the Ohio border to the Carlisle exit has always been a favorite drive of mine, due to family history (grandparents drove on it in the 1940s), and the scenery. So much so that I will go out of my way to drive that stretch (and yes, pay the toll) rather than take parallel alternatives that are newer and free. The 130 miles from the Carlisle exit to the Delaware River bores me, although I have driven it enough at this point that I practically know the road by heart.

For the Northeast Extension, the part south of US 22 I find extremely boring, but I love the part north of that, just for the scenery (I don't have family history on that part of the road).
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on October 12, 2023, 08:47:01 PM
Disclaimer: I haven’t yet been to the Northeast which includes driving the PA turnpike.

That said I saw a map on a Facebook group awhile ago(just now getting around to posting about it)pointing out the most expensive toll roads to drive across by state and PA turnpike took the cake by far and large. It claimed it was almost $200 to drive the entire road end to end.

Two questions: is that true? Is it is; why does the road seem to be in such shitty condition? Penn dot gets a lot to crap about having bad roads but I’ll reserve judgement until I see it for myself. Until then, if they really do have bad roads, where is all that money going if it really does cost that much to drive it? It should be one of the best roads in the world.

Honestly, seems like an unfair statement to say what you think you read (you overestimated by nearly $100 to $150, depending on your payment option), the agency (PTC, not PennDOT) and the road condition, which you never drove. 

Sure, I get you disclaimed it by saying you haven't driven it and reserve judgement, but reading Facebook and drawing conclusions gets you a predictable result...which is an incorrect result.

If you drive from Ohio to New Jersey, the EZ Pass toll is $52.10, the Pay-by-Plate toll is $105.30.  If you drive from Ohio to the Northeast Extension, the EZ Pass toll is $54.90, the Pay-by-Plate toll is $124.90 (I may be off a few bucks, but that's pretty close).  It's also slightly more expensive to drive it west to east (which are the tolls shown here) than it is to drive it east-to-west, due to the difference in fares at the mainline toll plazas near the Ohio and NJ borders.

The road condition, for all intents and purposes, isn't bad.  It's a bit worse in the Philly region due to the usage and congestion.  The older 2 lane sections can feel a bit tight, especially without the left shoulder.  But the pavement conditions are generally pretty good.

Part of the reason why it's the most expensive, is because it's also one of the longest toll roads in the US.  But when brought down to the cost per mile, it's not the most expensive by quite a bit.  The average cost for EZ Pass tollpayers for the max length is around 15 cents a mile.  If you pay toll-by-plate, it's about 30 cents per mile.  Delaware's I-95 section of the Delaware Turnpike is about 36 cents per mile (11 or so miles, $4.00 toll). 
Meanwhile, driving from MA to PA on the Thruway (a comparable distance, even taking the Buffalo free zone into account) is only $17.50 with a NY E-ZPass, $20.14 with a non-NY E-ZPass, or $22.76 for bill by mail - less than half what the PA Turnpike costs.  And that ignores that traffic can just take free 90 through Albany.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 17, 2023, 10:52:35 AM
Went to view the Design and Construction page last night.  Had a new listing for rehabilitation of the Cranberry interchange.  Site states that project began in May, though I saw no evidence in late July when I drove there.  I was surprised in that I view the turnpike ebs page daily, but never saw a listing for this.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 18, 2023, 08:06:27 AM
That’s good news. Hopefully they can start rebuilding it to modern standards. I’m guessing some parts are due for a six lane treatment…
The ramp lengths and exterior shoulders have been up to modern standards for decades. The interior shoulders and curve geometry can be substandard on some of the four-lane segments, but the rebuilt six-lane segments are modern in every way.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 18, 2023, 08:48:57 AM
That’s good news. Hopefully they can start rebuilding it to modern standards. I’m guessing some parts are due for a six lane treatment…
The ramp lengths and exterior shoulders have been up to modern standards for decades. The interior shoulders and curve geometry can be substandard on some of the four-lane segments, but the rebuilt six-lane segments are modern in every way.

They definitely need to redo some of the interchanges though.  They are so tight relative to the NYS Thruway, and most are posted at 25 MPH or less.  Hopefully with ORT, some will be converted from trumpets.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on October 21, 2023, 04:08:57 PM
Terrible situation on the NE Extension with a crash between a jet fuel tanker and other vehicles. Supposedly two fatalities. Looks like it was near a bridge, so there could be damage that keeps the road closed.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/tanker-truck-crash-pennsylvania-turnpike-in-montgomery-county/3674367/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2023, 01:05:09 AM
Terrible situation on the NE Extension with a crash between a jet fuel tanker and other vehicles. Supposedly two fatalities. Looks like it was near a bridge, so there could be damage that keeps the road closed.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/tanker-truck-crash-pennsylvania-turnpike-in-montgomery-county/3674367/
Yep.  Saw the VMSes with the closure method.  Weird thing was I was supposed to be on I-476 today, but was renting a car and forgot my E-ZPass, so I was shunpiking.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 22, 2023, 09:29:31 AM
Terrible situation on the NE Extension with a crash between a jet fuel tanker and other vehicles. Supposedly two fatalities. Looks like it was near a bridge, so there could be damage that keeps the road closed.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/tanker-truck-crash-pennsylvania-turnpike-in-montgomery-county/3674367/
Yep.  Saw the VMSes with the closure method.  Weird thing was I was supposed to be on I-476 today, but was renting a car and forgot my E-ZPass, so I was shunpiking.

Clicking the link shows that I-476 has been reopened.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 22, 2023, 09:58:27 AM
Terrible situation on the NE Extension with a crash between a jet fuel tanker and other vehicles. Supposedly two fatalities. Looks like it was near a bridge, so there could be damage that keeps the road closed.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/tanker-truck-crash-pennsylvania-turnpike-in-montgomery-county/3674367/
Yep.  Saw the VMSes with the closure method.  Weird thing was I was supposed to be on I-476 today, but was renting a car and forgot my E-ZPass, so I was shunpiking.

Clicking the link shows that I-476 has been reopened.

Apparently a car had a flat tire and stopped in the right lane, instead of the shoulder.  Someone with a work truck decided to be helpful and stopped behind him and put his flashers on.  The truck was unable to stop in time, slamming into the vehicles.  The truck driver and attempted good Samaritan both died; the original driver with the flat tire was injured.

I remember hearing from a NJ Turnpike spokesperson that some people don't want to pull over to the side of the road when they have a flat, thinking they'll risk more damage to the wheel.  They somehow don't think of the damage they'll cause stopping in a high speed travel lane of a highway, believing their little flashers will keep people from hitting them.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: CentralPAGal on October 22, 2023, 11:03:27 AM
That’s good news. Hopefully they can start rebuilding it to modern standards. I’m guessing some parts are due for a six lane treatment…
but the rebuilt six-lane segments are modern in every way.

There are some six-laned areas with substandard features, too. The area around the Carlisle interchange is six-laned, but only has 4' inside shoulders. Theoretically, this was done for clearance at the Carlisle interchange (so as to avoid expensive additional reconstruction,) but they also constructed about a mile of adjacent freeway to this standard too (including the newly reconstructed overpasses at rt 11 and Wolf's Bridge Rd.) Also, a six-lane segment near rt 28 outside Pittsburgh has 4' inside shoulders and some of the (albeit older) six-lane areas around Philly lack adequate shoulders, IIRC.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on October 22, 2023, 05:32:03 PM
Coincidentally, I happened to spot a PA Tpke-specific color detour sign for the first time (or at leas the first I've seen).

This was near the end of the "202 Parkway" near 63. The arrow is purple, but it was really hard to tell until getting right up to it (on the opposite side of the road). Unlike my last trip on this road today, I took the trail instead of using the dumpy bike lanes.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZlQcXjB.jpg)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 22, 2023, 06:27:06 PM
^I photographed it back in February.  (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10218301319324878&set=a.10218301431447681)

(https://scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/330218707_863239491406171_4965832515689970529_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=rgqvCcjYqBIAX-L067M&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-2.fna&oh=00_AfDDfcRxlqF6jVyqYEiSHSzhQ9Y4w5KmzcMzaQHoaRPVOA&oe=653FE595)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 27, 2023, 07:44:52 AM
Below are excerpts of an email I recently received in regard to the Scranton Beltway:

Quote
The Turnpike is holding two Public Meetings for this project, one for neighbors near the Wyoming Valley Interchange on November 13th and a second for neighbors near the Clarks Summit Interchange on November 14th. Here are the details for the Wyoming Valley Interchange Public Meeting:

Wyoming Valley Public Meeting

Date:              Monday, November 13, 2023         

Time:             6:00pm – 8:00pm

Location:      Martin L. Mattei Middle School - Cafeteria

                       120 New Street, Pittston, PA 18640


Here are the details for the Clarks Summit Interchange Public Meeting:

Clarks Summit Public Meeting

Date:              Tuesday, November 14, 2023         

Time:             6:00pm – 8:00pm

Location:     Best Western Plus Clarks Summit Scranton - Ballroom

                       820 Northern Blvd., Clarks Summit, PA 18411


Quote
The Scranton Beltway Project is in the final stages of preliminary design, which means approximately 30% of the engineering design is complete. The purpose of the Public Meeting is to provide information on where the roadway connections could be and the results of traffic noise studies, and other environmental considerations, such as stormwater.

I will be present at each of the Public Meetings as will other Turnpike team representatives to answer your questions. Comment forms will also be available for you to provide any additional written questions or input that you have.

For those that will not be able to attend the Public Meeting in person, I encourage you to visit our website at this link: https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/scranton-beltway.

An electronic version of the project plans and comment forms will be available on the website starting the week of November 13th.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Gnutella on October 27, 2023, 09:59:08 PM
There are some six-laned areas with substandard features, too. The area around the Carlisle interchange is six-laned, but only has 4' inside shoulders. Theoretically, this was done for clearance at the Carlisle interchange (so as to avoid expensive additional reconstruction,) but they also constructed about a mile of adjacent freeway to this standard too (including the newly reconstructed overpasses at rt 11 and Wolf's Bridge Rd.) Also, a six-lane segment near rt 28 outside Pittsburgh has 4' inside shoulders and some of the (albeit older) six-lane areas around Philly lack adequate shoulders, IIRC.

The segment near Pittsburgh passes directly through Oakmont Country Club, so widening the right-of-way there is impossible. As for the segment near Carlisle, it wouldn't surprise me if the Turnpike Commission has long-term plans to radically reconfigure the Carlisle interchange, so I doubt that anything we see there now is in its final form. Besides, the Turnpike passes over U.S. 11 and the other road, so widening to expand the interior shoulders would involve little more than extending the piers and putting down another girder or two.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 22, 2023, 09:50:01 AM
PTC has made a lot of progress on projects in the western half of the state. Both directions are using the new outside pavement at the bottom of Allegheny Mountain and EB traffic is using new roadway most of the way down the hill. West of Somerset, the WB roadway is fully open for the last two miles of that widening project, and EB doesn’t look too far behind.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on November 24, 2023, 03:28:40 PM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on November 25, 2023, 09:54:43 PM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on November 27, 2023, 04:17:40 AM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.

Guess I should have said no overhead equipment, as yes, most if not all appear to have the pavement sensors in place. I haven't been on the segment between the Reading and Morgantown interchanges lately but it's good to know work is continuing to progress.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Mr. Matté on December 09, 2023, 08:42:16 PM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.

Guess I should have said no overhead equipment, as yes, most if not all appear to have the pavement sensors in place. I haven't been on the segment between the Reading and Morgantown interchanges lately but it's good to know work is continuing to progress.

The Reading/Morgantown gantry is lit up like a Christmas tree (ok, maybe just a white-bulbed one) at night but the others east of there (including two between Valley Forge & Norristown for some reason) are still dark.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on December 10, 2023, 07:08:07 PM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.

Guess I should have said no overhead equipment, as yes, most if not all appear to have the pavement sensors in place. I haven't been on the segment between the Reading and Morgantown interchanges lately but it's good to know work is continuing to progress.

The Reading/Morgantown gantry is lit up like a Christmas tree (ok, maybe just a white-bulbed one) at night but the others east of there (including two between Valley Forge & Norristown for some reason) are still dark.

If you were wondering why there are two gantries between the Valley Forge and Norristown interchanges, there is an interchange planned with Lafayette Street serving Norristown.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on December 12, 2023, 06:56:01 AM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.

Guess I should have said no overhead equipment, as yes, most if not all appear to have the pavement sensors in place. I haven't been on the segment between the Reading and Morgantown interchanges lately but it's good to know work is continuing to progress.

The Reading/Morgantown gantry is lit up like a Christmas tree (ok, maybe just a white-bulbed one) at night but the others east of there (including two between Valley Forge & Norristown for some reason) are still dark.

If you were wondering why there are two gantries between the Valley Forge and Norristown interchanges, there is an interchange planned with Lafayette Street serving Norristown.


A long time coming. More on the Lafayette Street interchange here:

https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/lafayette-street-interchange

Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: ixnay on December 12, 2023, 08:04:01 AM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.

Guess I should have said no overhead equipment, as yes, most if not all appear to have the pavement sensors in place. I haven't been on the segment between the Reading and Morgantown interchanges lately but it's good to know work is continuing to progress.

The Reading/Morgantown gantry is lit up like a Christmas tree (ok, maybe just a white-bulbed one) at night but the others east of there (including two between Valley Forge & Norristown for some reason) are still dark.

If you were wondering why there are two gantries between the Valley Forge and Norristown interchanges, there is an interchange planned with Lafayette Street serving Norristown.


A long time coming. More on the Lafayette Street interchange here:

https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/lafayette-street-interchange

And per https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/lafayette-street-interchange/design-construction-details ... don't hold your breath.  Shovels go in the ground in 2027.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 12, 2023, 10:08:00 AM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.

Guess I should have said no overhead equipment, as yes, most if not all appear to have the pavement sensors in place. I haven't been on the segment between the Reading and Morgantown interchanges lately but it's good to know work is continuing to progress.

The Reading/Morgantown gantry is lit up like a Christmas tree (ok, maybe just a white-bulbed one) at night but the others east of there (including two between Valley Forge & Norristown for some reason) are still dark.

If you were wondering why there are two gantries between the Valley Forge and Norristown interchanges, there is an interchange planned with Lafayette Street serving Norristown.


A long time coming. More on the Lafayette Street interchange here:

https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/lafayette-street-interchange

And per https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/lafayette-street-interchange/design-construction-details ... don't hold your breath.  Shovels go in the ground in 2027.

Some of this might be dependent on work by Montgomery County on Ridge Pike.  They are reconstructing a section east of there (closer to I-476) first.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on December 14, 2023, 11:38:08 PM
https://triblive.com/local/skip-the-turnpike-frontier-offers-flights-from-pittsburgh-to-philadelphia/ It’s gonna be cheaper to fly from Philly to Pittsburgh on Frontier than to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 15, 2023, 08:57:13 AM
https://triblive.com/local/skip-the-turnpike-frontier-offers-flights-from-pittsburgh-to-philadelphia/ It’s gonna be cheaper to fly from Philly to Pittsburgh on Frontier than to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

At least for now
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 11:48:42 AM
https://triblive.com/local/skip-the-turnpike-frontier-offers-flights-from-pittsburgh-to-philadelphia/ It’s gonna be cheaper to fly from Philly to Pittsburgh on Frontier than to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Until you have to rent a car, or take a taxi/Uber, or take public transportation to/from the Pittsburgh airport -- likely scenario because of airport's relatively remote location to the west --- not so great if you are going to the eastern suburbs. Unless you are lucky enough to have locals who can pick you up and have something spare for you to drive.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Dough4872 on December 16, 2023, 01:35:34 PM
https://triblive.com/local/skip-the-turnpike-frontier-offers-flights-from-pittsburgh-to-philadelphia/ It’s gonna be cheaper to fly from Philly to Pittsburgh on Frontier than to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Until you have to rent a car, or take a taxi/Uber, or take public transportation to/from the Pittsburgh airport -- likely scenario because of airport's relatively remote location to the west --- not so great if you are going to the eastern suburbs. Unless you are lucky enough to have locals who can pick you up and have something spare for you to drive.

At least in Philly there is a train that goes direct to the airport.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 02:17:25 PM
https://triblive.com/local/skip-the-turnpike-frontier-offers-flights-from-pittsburgh-to-philadelphia/ It’s gonna be cheaper to fly from Philly to Pittsburgh on Frontier than to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Until you have to rent a car, or take a taxi/Uber, or take public transportation to/from the Pittsburgh airport -- likely scenario because of airport's relatively remote location to the west --- not so great if you are going to the eastern suburbs. Unless you are lucky enough to have locals who can pick you up and have something spare for you to drive.

At least in Philly there is a train that goes direct to the airport.

Understood -- I lived in Philly area for almost 35 years -- never had the pleasure of taking that train but I remember when the line was being built, particularly the curved bridge just outside the airport which was built while the building of I-95 in that area was mired in environmental litigation.

You specifically said Philly to Pittsburgh which is why I wrote my earlier response from that perspective.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: VTGoose on December 19, 2023, 10:41:15 PM
https://triblive.com/local/skip-the-turnpike-frontier-offers-flights-from-pittsburgh-to-philadelphia/ It’s gonna be cheaper to fly from Philly to Pittsburgh on Frontier than to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
Until you have to rent a car, or take a taxi/Uber, or take public transportation to/from the Pittsburgh airport -- likely scenario because of airport's relatively remote location to the west --- not so great if you are going to the eastern suburbs. Unless you are lucky enough to have locals who can pick you up and have something spare for you to drive.

At least in Philly there is a train that goes direct to the airport.

There were some progressives in Pittsburgh in the '70s who proposed train service to the airport. The P&LE line would be used from Station Square to Coraopolis, then the Montour to the Parkway, with a route from there to the airport to be determined. No funding and no political will kept the plans only a dream.

Bruce in Blacksburg (but a native of the 'Burgh)
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on December 21, 2023, 01:18:31 PM
Out of total curiosity, does anyone know whether the new Warrendale toll gantry was officially activated? I passed thru heading east on Monday and in addition to the equipment appearing to be fully installed, all 3 lanes each direction are now routed thru the express lanes at the old toll plaza with the cash lanes now blocked off. (Checking GSV, it looks like eastbound had the cash lanes previously blocked off with 2 lanes routed thru the express lanes while the 28-31 reconstruction was ongoing, but westbound still allowed access thru the cash lanes with 1 lane thru the express lanes.) Couldn't tell if there was a noticeable flash from the cameras at either the old express lanes gantry or the new gantry, but there was also a brief heavy rain while passing thru.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: theroadwayone on December 22, 2023, 12:32:13 AM
https://triblive.com/local/skip-the-turnpike-frontier-offers-flights-from-pittsburgh-to-philadelphia/ It’s gonna be cheaper to fly from Philly to Pittsburgh on Frontier than to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

This sounds like a Top Gear or The Grand Tour Epic Race.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 22, 2023, 05:21:40 PM
Out of total curiosity, does anyone know whether the new Warrendale toll gantry was officially activated? I passed thru heading east on Monday and in addition to the equipment appearing to be fully installed, all 3 lanes each direction are now routed thru the express lanes at the old toll plaza with the cash lanes now blocked off. (Checking GSV, it looks like eastbound had the cash lanes previously blocked off with 2 lanes routed thru the express lanes while the 28-31 reconstruction was ongoing, but westbound still allowed access thru the cash lanes with 1 lane thru the express lanes.) Couldn't tell if there was a noticeable flash from the cameras at either the old express lanes gantry or the new gantry, but there was also a brief heavy rain while passing thru.

Not sure, but they are testing another gantry west of Philly with all the electronics activated.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on December 27, 2023, 08:49:40 AM
Looks like work is underway for the MP 312-316 project, and it appears that the MP 324-326 project will soon be ready for traffic to switch to the newly constructed lanes.

Meanwhile, work has started on the I-95/Turnpike Section D30 project...

It also looks like all the gantries for the AET project from Morgantown eastward are in place, as well as those on the NE Extension. No equipment has been installed yet...

There is some equipment WB on the gantry before the Reading exit. There are also pavement sensors already installed at the one between Morgantown and Downingtown.

Guess I should have said no overhead equipment, as yes, most if not all appear to have the pavement sensors in place. I haven't been on the segment between the Reading and Morgantown interchanges lately but it's good to know work is continuing to progress.

The Reading/Morgantown gantry is lit up like a Christmas tree (ok, maybe just a white-bulbed one) at night but the others east of there (including two between Valley Forge & Norristown for some reason) are still dark.

I can confirm, as of last night, that both the westernmost gantries (between Downingtown and Reading) are fully lit with floodlighting.  The one east of Downingtown still has no equipment whatsoever, likely because it's in the widening project.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: tmoore952 on January 04, 2024, 04:48:16 PM
There was a post recently (I believe in the NJ Turnpike thread) that said the NJ Turnpike is used more for local travel than the PA Turnpike.

While that is true for the most part especially given the long mileage (and very rural areas) covered by the PA Turnpike, I have used the PA Turnpike for local travel a lot. I have also used it for long haul, like Philly to Pittsburgh and the reverse -- and when I lived near Philly in the 20th century, also from Philly area to Poconos area, and the reverse.

For local travel: when I lived north of Philadelphia in the 20th century, I often used the PA Turnpike between all the various exits between Valley Forge and the Delaware River for local travel, to avoid the many lights on the parallel roads.

And just this past Sunday to get to NYE party,  I used PA Turnpike to get from US 15 to US 11 to visit friends near the US 11 (Carlisle) interchange.
Normally I would have taken (from Maryland) US 15 to PA 74 to get to Carlisle (or alternatively US 15 to PA 94 to PA 34 to Carlisle). But I don't drive PA 74, 94, or 34 (or many other back roads) in the dark anymore after hitting two deer on such roads in 2005. And so at 6 PM on NYE when it was dark, we took US 15 to PA Turnpike, and went west one interchange (about 10 miles) to US 11.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 04, 2024, 11:37:28 PM
There was a post recently (I believe in the NJ Turnpike thread) that said the NJ Turnpike is used more for local travel than the PA Turnpike.

While that is true for the most part especially given the long mileage (and very rural areas) covered by the PA Turnpike, I have used the PA Turnpike for local travel a lot. I have also used it for long haul, like Philly to Pittsburgh and the reverse -- and when I lived near Philly in the 20th century, also from Philly area to Poconos area, and the reverse.

For local travel: when I lived north of Philadelphia in the 20th century, I often used the PA Turnpike between all the various exits between Valley Forge and the Delaware River for local travel, to avoid the many lights on the parallel roads.

And just this past Sunday to get to NYE party,  I used PA Turnpike to get from US 15 to US 11 to visit friends near the US 11 (Carlisle) interchange.
Normally I would have taken (from Maryland) US 15 to PA 74 to get to Carlisle (or alternatively US 15 to PA 94 to PA 34 to Carlisle). But I don't drive PA 74, 94, or 34 (or many other back roads) in the dark anymore after hitting two deer on such roads in 2005. And so at 6 PM on NYE when it was dark, we took US 15 to PA Turnpike, and went west one interchange (about 10 miles) to US 11.

For sure in the Philly area, the PA Turnpike and the Lansdale & Quakertown Interchanges of the NE Extension are used by commuters.  There's probably been some people that have found alternative routes with the toll hikes, and the whole WFH thing has probably allowed others to curtail their usage when they have the option to remain home.  But without many great alternative options, the PTC does benefit from Philly commuters.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on January 06, 2024, 07:04:32 AM
It's the first weekend of January, so we all know what that means...


https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2024/01/04/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-increasing-2024/stories/202401040126
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on February 24, 2024, 12:38:13 PM
Why does this bridge look newer from underneath than above?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yqQnNQa8KSbMgdMr8 Underneath.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/USBztP79JbRBum6r7 From above.

Same structure, same GSV date.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Roadgeek2500 on February 24, 2024, 06:57:20 PM
Why does this bridge look newer from underneath than above?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yqQnNQa8KSbMgdMr8 Underneath.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/USBztP79JbRBum6r7 From above.

Same structure, same GSV date.

Because it was painted? That structure is very obviously old with the horizontal character lines and barrier style.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on February 25, 2024, 01:22:24 PM
Why does this bridge look newer from underneath than above?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yqQnNQa8KSbMgdMr8 Underneath.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/USBztP79JbRBum6r7 From above.

Same structure, same GSV date.

Because it was painted? That structure is very obviously old with the horizontal character lines and barrier style.

Credit to the painters as they made it look newish.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Rothman on February 25, 2024, 03:40:18 PM
Why does this bridge look newer from underneath than above?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yqQnNQa8KSbMgdMr8 Underneath.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/USBztP79JbRBum6r7 From above.

Same structure, same GSV date.

Because it was painted? That structure is very obviously old with the horizontal character lines and barrier style.

Credit to the painters as they made it look newish.
DOTs have cyclical bridge painting contracts that can include cosmetic work to the beams themselves.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on February 25, 2024, 06:19:02 PM
Too bad that contract didn’t include Tilghman Street above as the concrete is full of rust stains from the decades of rain hitting it.

Glad they didn’t replace it like PTC and PennDOT have been doing elsewhere. I saw on US 22 near PA 33 they got rid of an age old pony plate bridge as seen in East Coast Roads recent updates of the Lehigh Vallley Thruway.  Plus several bridges on the mainline turnpike and I-78 in Berks County are complete replacements.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on February 25, 2024, 08:49:29 PM
Too bad that contract didn’t include Tilghman Street above as the concrete is full of rust stains from the decades of rain hitting it.

Glad they didn’t replace it like PTC and PennDOT have been doing elsewhere. I saw on US 22 near PA 33 they got rid of an age old pony plate bridge as seen in East Coast Roads recent updates of the Lehigh Vallley Thruway.  Plus several bridges on the mainline turnpike and I-78 in Berks County are complete replacements.


That paint job's days are numbered. The replacement project for the bridge is underway... https://www.paturnpike.com/traveling/construction/site/milepost-a53-a57-northeast-extension
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: davewiecking on February 29, 2024, 02:37:47 PM
Update on NE extension widening project (mileposts A38-A44):

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/traffic/2024/02/turnpikes-200m-northeast-extension-project-nears-milestone-just-south-of-lehigh-valley.html
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Crown Victoria on March 01, 2024, 03:49:04 PM
The ORT conversion is continuing to progress westward...bids for the section between Fort Littleton and Gettysburg open on 3/13, and bids for the section from Ohio to New Stanton open on 4/10.

https://ebs.paturnpike.com/generalinformation/
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: MASTERNC on March 02, 2024, 11:41:44 AM
The ORT conversion is continuing to progress westward...bids for the section between Fort Littleton and Gettysburg open on 3/13, and bids for the section from Ohio to New Stanton open on 4/10.

https://ebs.paturnpike.com/generalinformation/

Interesting they're doing it piecemeal like this.  Missing some big sections in between.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: jmacswimmer on March 02, 2024, 02:41:16 PM
^

At first I was wondering if "Ohio to New Stanton" meant that tolling would be reinstated between the New Castle & Cranberry interchanges, but this doesn't appear to be the case as the counties listed on the bid are Lawrence, Allegheny, & Westmoreland (and not Beaver or Butler, which the Turnpike passes thru between New Castle & Cranberry).

With Lawrence's inclusion on the county list, I presume this means that the Gateway toll plaza will be demolished and replaced with a gantry (despite traffic already proceeding highway-speed thru what was originally the express E-ZPass lanes at the plaza) - I wonder whether the new gantry will remain one-way eastbound or become two-way? Which would be slightly amusing since the Ohio Turnpike's Eastgate toll plaza is about to become westbound-only with the launch of their new tolling system.

Side note, I believe the new Warrendale toll gantry was indeed quietly activated at some point based on comparing the timestamp of a photo I took in the area against the E-ZPass timestamp for entering at Warrendale from a trip back in December.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: Bitmapped on March 02, 2024, 08:45:37 PM
^
With Lawrence's inclusion on the county list, I presume this means that the Gateway toll plaza will be demolished and replaced with a gantry (despite traffic already proceeding highway-speed thru what was originally the express E-ZPass lanes at the plaza) - I wonder whether the new gantry will remain one-way eastbound or become two-way? Which would be slightly amusing since the Ohio Turnpike's Eastgate toll plaza is about to become westbound-only with the launch of their new tolling system.

The bid items show new "tolling facilities" at mileposts 5.4 (halfway between state line and New Castle exit), 46.7 (mile west of Allegheny Valley), 53.9 (3 miles west of Pittsburgh), 63.6 (mile east of proposed PA 130 exit), and 74.7 (just west of New Stanton). So, it looks like they're replacing Gateway entirely and leaving the existing free section free. They'll need to add a new in-fill gantry west of PA 130 when they get around to building that interchange.

It's not clear if the western end will be getting two-way tolling or not. I'd hoped this project would reinstate two-way AET the full length west of Cranberry. People who are just going between the state line and I-376, like I do a couple times a year, get gouged under the current system.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: vdeane on March 02, 2024, 10:53:49 PM
It's not clear if the western end will be getting two-way tolling or not. I'd hoped this project would reinstate two-way AET the full length west of Cranberry. People who are just going between the state line and I-376, like I do a couple times a year, get gouged under the current system.
Actually, I would think reinstating two-way tolling would lead to gouging, thanks to the changes on the Ohio side.  With Eastgate going one-way, it and Gateway will form a nice pair, if the PTC leaves things as they are.
Title: Re: PA Turnpike News
Post by: roadman65 on March 17, 2024, 08:33:50 PM
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0BqW2h5ULdCuAUymbqUsqB2GFSfeAAmwJYSsxuc23t86EfAxG74b2BNPvuxsaiZF7l&id=100092612415258
Interesting photo. An original pony plate overpass at one of the interchanges, plus the original grass median.

Edit.  That overpass is still there as a recent GSV caption shows it. That’s Fort Littleton looking east.

I did notice the PTC added another Jersey barrier off to the side near Fort Littleton. https://maps.app.goo.gl/98Me6bSSqL9KLMrCA