From NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth:
Texas Police Officers Show Support for Eliminating Paper TagsQuotePolice officers from across Texas packed a hearing room in Austin demonstrating their support for a bill that would eliminate temporary paper license plates.
Since 2021, NBC 5 Investigates has exposed how the paper tag system has been riddled with fraud.
Officers, including Grand Prairie Chief Daniel Scesney, showed up at a House Transportation Committee hearing Wednesday urging lawmakers to switch from paper plates to metal tags that they say would be harder for crooks to counterfeit and sell online.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2q6)
Good for them! I think metal tags should be implemented nationwide, and paper ones eliminated completely.
Amusingly California just started using them recently. It felt strange running around with my Impreza for such a long time with no plate of any kind after I bought it.
Kentucky has used paper temporary plates for as long as I can remember. The appearance of them has changed over the years, but they're basically handwritten, good for only 30 days, and signed by a licensed vehicle dealer.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 11:45:38 AMAmusingly California just started using them recently. It felt strange running around with my Impreza for such a long time with no plate of any kind after I bought it.
Ah, yes, the Steve Jobs loophole. From Ars Technica published July, 2016:
California closes the Steve Jobs license plate loophole
The law goes into effect in 2019 and will provide the state with $19 million a year.QuoteOne of the many things Steve Jobs was famous for was his refusal to put a license plate on the back of his car, a Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG. Jobs–or someone close to him–spotted a loophole in California DMV regulations allowing six months of grace before a license plate had to be attached to a new car. As a result, the Apple supremo maintained a rolling six-month lease on a series of new SL55 AMGs, replacing one with another just before the grace period ran out.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2q7)
Metal 30-day temporary tags seems like a waste of materials to me.
If the problem is counterfeiting, either add some kind of security feature to the paper (a la $100 bills) or come up with some sort of temporary number to put on the tag so a cop can run it.
In New York this is handled by each DMV having a supply of plates ready to give out. When you register a car, they just grab whichever one is next in line, tie the number to the registration, and hand you the plates. Not sure how it works if someone wants specialty plates.
QuotePolice officers from across Texas packed a hearing room in Austin
There were EIGHT. EIGHT police officers were in the room. They were standing against the back wall to show their support for the bill, and one spoke at a podium, and that was clearly evident in the video between 1:59 and 2:05. Everyone else in the room sitting there were not officers. My goodness does the media suck with their exaggerations.
And the bill wasn't even given support in committee, as it didn't pass today.
Quote from: vdeane on March 30, 2023, 09:11:28 PM
In New York this is handled by each DMV having a supply of plates ready to give out. When you register a car, they just grab whichever one is next in line, tie the number to the registration, and hand you the plates. Not sure how it works if someone wants specialty plates.
That's not what paper tags are used for in states that use them (like Oklahoma). The tag agency has a stack of tags to hand out too. The 30-day paper tag is issued by the dealer to cover the period between when you take possession of the car and when you have all of the necessary documents (i.e. the title) needed to register the car with the state and get the permanent license plate. Sometimes this can take a while–the last time I bought a car I actually had my paper tag run out and had to go back to the dealer and have them issue a second one.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 30, 2023, 10:03:37 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 30, 2023, 09:11:28 PM
In New York this is handled by each DMV having a supply of plates ready to give out. When you register a car, they just grab whichever one is next in line, tie the number to the registration, and hand you the plates. Not sure how it works if someone wants specialty plates.
That's not what paper tags are used for in states that use them (like Oklahoma). The tag agency has a stack of tags to hand out too. The 30-day paper tag is issued by the dealer to cover the period between when you take possession of the car and when you have all of the necessary documents (i.e. the title) needed to register the car with the state and get the permanent license plate. Sometimes this can take a while–the last time I bought a car I actually had my paper tag run out and had to go back to the dealer and have them issue a second one.
Last time I bought a car, the dealer had metal tags to put on it.
I was also surprised by how easy it was to just get another plate. My wife was anxious about having a "KKX" plate, so I got a new one. Took ten minutes and the teller just yanked a new tag out from under her desk and away I went.
Yeah, the last time I got a car, the dealer handled all the DMV paperwork. All I had to do was sign a bunch of forms and write them a check.
Quote from: vdeane on March 31, 2023, 12:50:15 PM
Yeah, the last time I got a car, the dealer handled all the DMV paperwork. All I had to do was sign a bunch of forms and write them a check.
How much of a "document" fee did they charge you? Those are just money-making scams by the dealerships when a buyer could do the legwork themselves and save a bunch of cash.
Quote from: Rothman on March 30, 2023, 11:03:17 PM
I was also surprised by how easy it was to just get another plate. My wife was anxious about having a "KKX" plate, so I got a new one. Took ten minutes and the teller just yanked a new tag out from under her desk and away I went.
It's a digression I know, and why was your wife anxious about that plate series? I don't know that I've ever had strong feelings about my license plate number.
As for eliminating paper temp tags, it's probably a good idea. Here in Colorado they're good for 60 days. However, from 2020 onwards, it's not unusual to see a temp tag expired by 6 months or more. I still see regular plates with '22 expiration dates affixed to them, so it's not just the temp tag problem. But on the fraud side, especially with our high rate of car thefts here in the Denver area, within the last week a reporter showed a current picture of a Colorado temp tag with 2013 on it. That has to be fraud and possibly auto theft as well.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 31, 2023, 12:50:15 PM
Yeah, the last time I got a car, the dealer handled all the DMV paperwork. All I had to do was sign a bunch of forms and write them a check.
How much of a "document" fee did they charge you? Those are just money-making scams by the dealerships when a buyer could do the legwork themselves and save a bunch of cash.
It's not a lot. I may dig out my paperwork a bit later.
Point here is that NY hands out metal plates as soon as documents for the title are submitted. I assume custom plates for a new car may be a problem, if you don't want to use regular ones for 2 weeks. Dealer hands over the car with attached metal plates, and somewhat act on behalf of DMV.
Buying from a person, especially out of state, may be messy. I believe you cannot drive the car until documents are submitted to DMV. Previous owner may allow to use their registration for some time, though.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 31, 2023, 12:50:15 PM
Yeah, the last time I got a car, the dealer handled all the DMV paperwork. All I had to do was sign a bunch of forms and write them a check.
How much of a "document" fee did they charge you? Those are just money-making scams by the dealerships when a buyer could do the legwork themselves and save a bunch of cash.
Pfft. It was a pittance and worth me not having to run to the DMV.
Quote from: zzcarp on March 31, 2023, 02:31:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 30, 2023, 11:03:17 PM
I was also surprised by how easy it was to just get another plate. My wife was anxious about having a "KKX" plate, so I got a new one. Took ten minutes and the teller just yanked a new tag out from under her desk and away I went.
It's a digression I know, and why was your wife anxious about that plate series? I don't know that I've ever had strong feelings about my license plate number.
It was too close to triple-K for comfort. Then, there were "reports" that white supremacists actually were using KKX on their plates. Then, other "reports" that cars with KKX plates were being vandalized...Anyway, it was easy enough to fix once I took the trip out there to the DMV.
Quote from: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 05:16:23 PM
Then, other "reports" that cars with KKX plates were being vandalized...
Good grief! What have people come to...
Will someone please tell me what's wrong with ensuring that every vehicle that is sold, whether it be new or used, have either metal plates or at least durable material temporary plates? The cost is going to be passed along to the consumer anyways. Yes, I prefer to transfer my personalized plates transferred over, but if I have to pay the transfer fee, so be it.
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 05:46:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 05:16:23 PM
Then, other "reports" that cars with KKX plates were being vandalized...
Good grief! What have people come to...
By "reports," I mean "not well-verified."
Quote from: ZLoth on March 31, 2023, 10:03:33 PM
Will someone please tell me what's wrong with ensuring that every vehicle that is sold, whether it be new or used, have either metal plates or at least durable material temporary plates? The cost is going to be passed along to the consumer anyways. Yes, I prefer to transfer my personalized plates transferred over, but if I have to pay the transfer fee, so be it.
These days document is mostly not a paper object but a database record. Why is the reference to the database on aluminum is better than reference on paper? Especially 8f we are talking TX, with flat black on white plates. I am not sure if those plates are retro reflective, or if TX is particular about covering plates with transparent plastic. But otherwise print on a cardboard should look very realistic.
The last "paper" tag I had was actually printed on a thin sheet of vinyl.
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2023, 03:33:32 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on March 31, 2023, 10:03:33 PM
Will someone please tell me what's wrong with ensuring that every vehicle that is sold, whether it be new or used, have either metal plates or at least durable material temporary plates? The cost is going to be passed along to the consumer anyways. Yes, I prefer to transfer my personalized plates transferred over, but if I have to pay the transfer fee, so be it.
These days document is mostly not a paper object but a database record. Why is the reference to the database on aluminum is better than reference on paper? Especially 8f we are talking TX, with flat black on white plates.
That license plate, or tag, points to VIN number which, in turn, points to the VIN Number, make and model of vehicle, owner of the vehicle, and who hold the loan. Around here, if the tollway is unable to read the RFID toll tag, it falls back to reading the license plate. If someone else creates a fake tag or fake paper plate, then the wrong account gets billed, and that owner must go through the appeal process of "that's not my vehicle!" to get the false charges removed. The same applies to stop light cameras and speed cameras as well.
When I moved to Texas, I ordered some personalized plates. The temporary paper plate I received from the local tax office was
very plain and was printed on 20# paper including no background watermarks and no 3D bar code. This has, thankfully, been improved, but still has issues...
From NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth:
Texas DMV's New Paper Tag Design Easily Counterfeited, Police Say
Officers seize dozens of fake tags mirroring the DMV's new, more secure tags as lawmakers consider switching to metal platesQuotePolice in Grand Prairie say most of the counterfeit temporary license plates their officers now encounter on the streets are spitting images of the Texas DMV's new tag design, rolled out in February in an effort to curb fraud.
It's evidence, some in law enforcement say, that the state cannot design its way out of the problem, that made Texas the "Paper Tag Nation."
"Full stop, no. Paper tags won't work," Daniel Scesney, Grand Prairie Police Chief, told NBC 5 investigates.
(text deleted)
Officers seized dozens of counterfeit, many from people suspected of using them to mask the fact that they have no insurance or driver's license or have a vehicle that could not pass a state inspection needed to be on the road legally.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2q9)
Quote from: ZLoth on April 01, 2023, 07:07:11 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2023, 03:33:32 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on March 31, 2023, 10:03:33 PM
Will someone please tell me what's wrong with ensuring that every vehicle that is sold, whether it be new or used, have either metal plates or at least durable material temporary plates? The cost is going to be passed along to the consumer anyways. Yes, I prefer to transfer my personalized plates transferred over, but if I have to pay the transfer fee, so be it.
These days document is mostly not a paper object but a database record. Why is the reference to the database on aluminum is better than reference on paper? Especially 8f we are talking TX, with flat black on white plates.
That license plate, or tag, points to VIN number which, in turn, points to the VIN Number, make and model of vehicle, owner of the vehicle, and who hold the loan. Around here, if the tollway is unable to read the RFID toll tag, it falls back to reading the license plate. If someone else creates a fake tag or fake paper plate, then the wrong account gets billed, and that owner must go through the appeal process of "that's not my vehicle!" to get the false charges removed. The same applies to stop light cameras and speed cameras as well.
When I moved to Texas, I ordered some personalized plates. The temporary paper plate I received from the local tax office was very plain and was printed on 20# paper including no background watermarks and no 3D bar code. This has, thankfully, been improved, but still has issues...
From NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth:
Texas DMV's New Paper Tag Design Easily Counterfeited, Police Say
Officers seize dozens of fake tags mirroring the DMV's new, more secure tags as lawmakers consider switching to metal platesQuotePolice in Grand Prairie say most of the counterfeit temporary license plates their officers now encounter on the streets are spitting images of the Texas DMV's new tag design, rolled out in February in an effort to curb fraud.
It's evidence, some in law enforcement say, that the state cannot design its way out of the problem, that made Texas the "Paper Tag Nation."
"Full stop, no. Paper tags won't work," Daniel Scesney, Grand Prairie Police Chief, told NBC 5 investigates.
(text deleted)
Officers seized dozens of counterfeit, many from people suspected of using them to mask the fact that they have no insurance or driver's license or have a vehicle that could not pass a state inspection needed to be on the road legally.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2q9)
So toll roads are the biggest guy in town now, dictating what should and should not be done with registrations?
Oh well...
As for TX illegal plates, I still don't see why faking TX metal plate is more difficult than faking a paper one. Or if you look from the other side, either is a high level crime - probably a felony.
TX paper temps are a problem far outside of TX too. NJ switched to a similar system and well.... the same result. People drive around with expired temps or steal a tag off another car and run them indefinitely. What it comes down to is that cops aren't enforcing the law. The expiration date (at least on NJ temps) is clearly visible and nobody seems to want to pull over a car running something that expired 2 years ago.
What's odd is that this didn't seem to be a problem when NJ used a temp sticker that hung inside of the rear windshield.
https://njplates.moini.net/temp1993.html
Those had various anti-counterfeiting detections, but dealers had to order them from the MVC. The premise with the new tags is that they could be printed out on-demand, reducing costs.
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2023, 01:22:53 PMAs for TX illegal plates, I still don't see why faking TX metal plate is more difficult than faking a paper one. Or if you look from the other side, either is a high level crime - probably felony.
The reflective coating has several layer of lamination which include a bit of a watermark making it harder to counterfeit.
Quote from: ZLoth on April 01, 2023, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2023, 01:22:53 PMAs for TX illegal plates, I still don't see why faking TX metal plate is more difficult than faking a paper one. Or if you look from the other side, either is a high level crime - probably felony.
The reflective coating has several layer of lamination which include a bit of a watermark making it harder to counterfeit.
All this is significantly dependent on enforcement priorities. Watermark may be noticable for someone standing next to the car, but likely not so much to a regular patrol officer in traffic. Plate readers can help to verify things, especially in-state, if police choose to address the problem. Looks like they don't
Sort of understandable as invalid registration per se isn't a threat to public safety, but may create a lot of problems from need to arrange a tow to dealing with "targeting low-income community".
From StreetsBlog:
GHOST TAGS: Inside the Black Market for Temporary License PlatesQuote
- Part 1: The Dealers - Used car dealers have exploited loose state regulations to fraudulently issued temporary license plates, which flow through a thriving black market to drivers who use them to skirt accountability on the road.
- Part 2: The Landlords - Vast numbers of temporary license plates trace back to a network of warehouses and office buildings across Georgia and New Jersey that each serve as the business address of dozens or even hundreds of enigmatic used car dealers.
- Part 3: The Buyers - Motorists in New York City and across the country have turned to fraudulent temporary license plates to drive without car insurance or valid licenses, to skirt tolls, taxes and fees, or to commit more serious crimes on the road with their identities concealed.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2qk)
1 - Traffic cops have no business attending any public hearing on any subject. When confronted with the truth about revenue random taxation and the failure of first the NMSL and later of other, still too low, SLs, they respond with the Nuremberg defense ("I was just following orders"). This belies that. When you appear (apparently 8 cops is "packed" to this reporterete) and advocate for any law, YOU are responsible for its ethical nature. Or in the case of traffic laws, the lack thereof.
2 - If Texas temp tags are a problem, then get off your dead a** and do some serious useful police work. Run the numbers. But, nah, much easier to just run radar. People that use temp paper tags to avoid interaction with the state might be dangerous. Much safer to abuse ordinary people driving safe and fast.
Quote from: SP Cook on April 10, 2023, 08:42:13 AM
1 - Traffic cops have no business attending any public hearing on any subject. When confronted with the truth about revenue random taxation and the failure of first the NMSL and later of other, still too low, SLs, they respond with the Nuremberg defense ("I was just following orders"). This belies that. When you appear (apparently 8 cops is "packed" to this reporterete) and advocate for any law, YOU are responsible for its ethical nature. Or in the case of traffic laws, the lack thereof.
2 - If Texas temp tags are a problem, then get off your dead a** and do some serious useful police work. Run the numbers. But, nah, much easier to just run radar. People that use temp paper tags to avoid interaction with the state might be dangerous. Much safer to abuse ordinary people driving safe and fast.
I actually have an issue with any public-funded executive or administrative agency lobbying for any public policies. The job of the executive branch is to carry out the directives of the legislative branch.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 10, 2023, 11:09:40 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on April 10, 2023, 08:42:13 AM
1 - Traffic cops have no business attending any public hearing on any subject. When confronted with the truth about revenue random taxation and the failure of first the NMSL and later of other, still too low, SLs, they respond with the Nuremberg defense ("I was just following orders"). This belies that. When you appear (apparently 8 cops is "packed" to this reporterete) and advocate for any law, YOU are responsible for its ethical nature. Or in the case of traffic laws, the lack thereof.
2 - If Texas temp tags are a problem, then get off your dead a** and do some serious useful police work. Run the numbers. But, nah, much easier to just run radar. People that use temp paper tags to avoid interaction with the state might be dangerous. Much safer to abuse ordinary people driving safe and fast.
I actually have an issue with any public-funded executive or administrative agency lobbying for any public policies. The job of the executive branch is to carry out the directives of the legislative branch.
There is definitely a need for feedback from those in charge of actually implementing the law to lawmakers. Lawmakers cannot be aware of everything what goes on in the jurisdiction, and may not be in position to address the problem they are not aware of. And there is definitely a problem at hand.
It's not that much different from telling your boss "that doesn't work".
Quote from: hbelkins on April 10, 2023, 11:09:40 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on April 10, 2023, 08:42:13 AM
1 - Traffic cops have no business attending any public hearing on any subject. When confronted with the truth about revenue random taxation and the failure of first the NMSL and later of other, still too low, SLs, they respond with the Nuremberg defense ("I was just following orders"). This belies that. When you appear (apparently 8 cops is "packed" to this reporterete) and advocate for any law, YOU are responsible for its ethical nature. Or in the case of traffic laws, the lack thereof.
2 - If Texas temp tags are a problem, then get off your dead a** and do some serious useful police work. Run the numbers. But, nah, much easier to just run radar. People that use temp paper tags to avoid interaction with the state might be dangerous. Much safer to abuse ordinary people driving safe and fast.
I actually have an issue with any public-funded executive or administrative agency lobbying for any public policies. The job of the executive branch is to carry out the directives of the legislative branch.
Heh. In my experience, the legislative bodies, whether federal, state or even county, reach out to executive agencies to see what needs to be done. The connection flows both ways.
Quote from: ZLoth on April 09, 2023, 04:24:36 PM
From StreetsBlog:
GHOST TAGS: Inside the Black Market for Temporary License PlatesQuote
- Part 1: The Dealers - Used car dealers have exploited loose state regulations to fraudulently issued temporary license plates, which flow through a thriving black market to drivers who use them to skirt accountability on the road.
- Part 2: The Landlords - Vast numbers of temporary license plates trace back to a network of warehouses and office buildings across Georgia and New Jersey that each serve as the business address of dozens or even hundreds of enigmatic used car dealers.
- Part 3: The Buyers - Motorists in New York City and across the country have turned to fraudulent temporary license plates to drive without car insurance or valid licenses, to skirt tolls, taxes and fees, or to commit more serious crimes on the road with their identities concealed.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2qk)
There is one good point in that article: a lot of things in life are set up so that inability to drive a car leads to catastrophic consequences. Work, school, groceries, social life - most of them depend on ability to drive. Hence a strong incentive to drive no matter what.
Although article focuses on NYC, where options do exist...
From NBC DFW:
Bill to Eliminate Paper License Plates in Texas Passes Texas SenateQuoteTexas is just two steps away from eliminating paper license plates.
Late Wednesday afternoon, the Texas Senate voted 30-1 to pass a bill that would replace paper temporary tags with metal license plates.
The bill is now headed back to the Texas House where, if members concur with Senate amendments, the bill will head for Gov. Greg Abbott's (R) desk.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2qw)
From KXAN:
No more paper license plates: new law tears up old systemQuoteSay goodbye to paper license plates – just not yet.
Gov. Greg Abbott signed a bill into law Monday that puts the brakes on Texas' paper license plate problem by tearing up the current system. The new law replaces all paper tags with metal ones. It goes into effect July 1, 2025.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.kxan.com/investigations/no-more-paper-license-plates-new-law-tears-up-old-system/)