gas stations

[mightyace]

I work for a company that processes credit cards and can speak on a couple of these points personally.

ZIP codes at pumps.  This is a very common anti-fraud measure.  I would think that the software would be smart enough to recognize that a credit card does not have a US billing address and so won't have a ZIP code, but it appears this is not the case.  Where a non-US credit card has to be used, I would suggest the following sequence:

*  Hit "OK" without entering a ZIP code

*  Assuming this fails, enter a null ZIP code (00000) and see what happens

You are correct, this is a credit card protection feature known as Address Verification Service or AVS.  It can either be house number and zip or just zip.  As for non-US cards, I think it is laziness on the part of the companies involved.  The either don't want to check for card origin or the cost of handling the exceptions is less than programming it right.

Split cash/credit pricing.  I had always understood that the major credit card issuers (Visa and MasterCard) prohibit businesses from offering different prices for cash or credit.  Is this still the case, and if so, then how do gas stations and other businesses get around it?

You are right on the money here.  It is prohibited by Visa or MC unless state or local law allows the practice.  However, the businesses involved have to be caught by Visa/MC.  As consumer complains and/or audits are much more likely for large businesses that small, that is why you usually see it only with mom and pop or small chains as their chance of getting caught is less.

Now, most corporate accounts between the vendor and the trucking company so a cash discount is allowed.

In California, ARCO has long had a cash-only policy, explicitly to save the costs associated with accepting credit cards.

Since they don't accept any credit cards, there's nothing Visa or MC can say.

[SP Cook]

In my area:

Self-Serve: 99.9% the norm.  The only stations that offer full-serve, at a massive premium (upwards of 70 cents) are neighborhood stations in the wealthiest neighborhoods, plying the blue-haired old lady trade.

Handicapped: most stations have a sign as described. 

Diesel:  Maybe 30% of stations have Diesel, up from much less than that a few years ago.  Most truck stops also have a Diesel pump in the gasoline isle for Diesel cars and trucks, so you do not have to line up with the big rigs.  In the US the Diesel spout is larger and will not fit in a gasoline car, BTW.

Credit cards:  I know of no station that does not accept credit cards.

Split pricing: Unknown here.

Unattended fully automated stations: Unknown here.

Pre-pay or credit only:  Only implimented in-town in bad neighborhoods.  Suburban and by the interstate permit you to pump and then go in to pay.

Grocery stores: Kroger has gasoline, and gives a large (can by 15 cents) discount based on one's grocery purchases.

[yanksfan6129]

You are right on the money here.  It is prohibited by Visa or MC unless state or local law allows the practice.  However, the businesses involved have to be caught by Visa/MC.  As consumer complains and/or audits are much more likely for large businesses that small, that is why you usually see it only with mom and pop or small chains as their chance of getting caught is less.

With regards to being allowed to have separate prices, if a station considers it to be a "cash discount" instead of a "credit card surcharge" wouldn't that allow them to maintain the separate prices?

[mightyace]

You are right on the money here.  It is prohibited by Visa or MC unless state or local law allows the practice.  However, the businesses involved have to be caught by Visa/MC.  As consumer complains and/or audits are much more likely for large businesses that small, that is why you usually see it only with mom and pop or small chains as their chance of getting caught is less.

With regards to being allowed to have separate prices, if a station considers it to be a "cash discount" instead of a "credit card surcharge" wouldn't that allow them to maintain the separate prices?

No.  The actual wording from Visa/MC is something like this, "The price paid with a [Visa or MC] card must not differ from the cash price."

[Bryant5493]

Re: SP Cook's post about Kroger

Yeah, I normally get $0.03 off per gallon at Kroger with my Kroger Plus Card. My dad let me use his card one time, and he had a $0.15 discount/gallon, as he buys more groceries from there.


Be well,

Bryant

[mightyace]

Re: SP Cook's post about Kroger

Yeah, I normally get $0.03 off per gallon at Kroger with my Kroger Plus Card. My dad let me use his card one time, and he had a $0.15 discount/gallon, as he buys more groceries from there.


Be well,

Bryant

I get gas a lot from Kroger myself for the same reasons.  In TN, it is also $0.03 off per gallon at Kroger with my Kroger Plus Card.  You get $0.10 for every $100 in groceries you buy and $0.15 for every $100 in groceries on a Kroger co-branded card.  (I forget whether it's a Visa or MC)

The Weis Markets and Giant grocery store chains in PA also do the $0.10 discount.  There is one difference from how Kroger does it.  Kroger makes me do each $0.10 a discount at a time while the Weis and Giant let you use all accumulated discounts at once.

[PAHighways]

I get 10¢ off at GetGo for every $50 spent at Giant Eagle under their FuelPerks program, and now get a 1% discount on groceries at Giant Eagle for every 10 gallons pumped at GetGo under their FoodPerks program.  The problem is you must use either Perks all at once at either place.

Shop 'n Save has a Pump Perks program involving their Shop 'n Save Express stations as well as some BP and Sunoco stations.

[thenetwork]

That's the one thing I don't get...Some states will allow you to combine all your shopping card bonuses into one sale (Three .10 discounts for a total of .30 off at one time vs. having to fill up on 3 different occasions to use your credits).  Here in Colorado, for a brief time the state had outlawed pump discounts of more than 3 or 5 cents, as it "created an unfair competitive price advantage" over more traditional stand-alone gas stations.  It had since re-allowed discounts of up to 10 or 15 cents per fill-up.

The only times those nickel and dime discounts (no pun intended) are advantageous are when the gas prices are cheaper.   If you take 20 gallons to "fill up" when prices are at, say $2.00 a gallon with a 10 cent/gallon savings, you save $2.00 or 5% off your total bill. 

Now take last year when gas was at $4.00 at some places,  yeah, you still only saved $2.00 at the pump for a 20 gallon fill, but overall your percentage off the total bill was much less...Is it really unfair competition at that point? 

Even though my Kroger shoppers card has two to four 10-cent credits in any given month, I still don't use them all since:
a) I cant string them all together in a single pump session
b) I'm not gonna drive out of my way to go to an official Kroger brand gas station to save $1.50 total if gas is approaching record levels like last year. 

Perhaps if it was a percentage off (like 10% off) instead of what usually turns out to be a maximum dollar amount (15 gallons always equals $1.50 off). Then I might change my tune.

[mightyace]

Here in Colorado, for a brief time the state had outlawed pump discounts of more than 3 or 5 cents, as it "created an unfair competitive price advantage" over more traditional stand-alone gas stations.  It had since re-allowed discounts of up to 10 or 15 cents per fill-up.

It's ironic that the "stand-alone gas stations" are complaining as the vast majority of them are either company-owned or owned by large corporations running hundreds of gas stations/convenience stores.  Back in the '70s and '80s, these stations used their competitive advantages including loss leader sales of gas to put the "mom and pop" stations out of business.  Their singing a different tune now that the shoe's on the other foot! 

[Tarkus]

Well, I'm from Oregon, so I've grown up with full-serve being the norm.  Self-serve is allowed for motorcycles, however, as outlined by ORS 480.389.

480.349 Use of gasoline dispensing device by motorcycle operator. (1) As used in this section, motorcycle has the meaning given that term in ORS 801.365.

      (2) Notwithstanding ORS 480.330 and 480.340:

      (a) Upon the request of an operator of a motorcycle, the owner, operator or employee of a filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail shall set the fuel dispensing device and hand the discharge nozzle to the operator of the motorcycle.

      (b) An operator of a motorcycle who is handed a discharge nozzle under paragraph (a) of this subsection:

      (A) May dispense Class 1 flammable liquids into the operators motorcycle.

      (B) Shall, after dispensing the liquids, return the discharge nozzle to the owner, operator or employee.

      (3) The owner, operator or employee who is handed the discharge nozzle shall return the nozzle to the pump or take any other actions necessary to ensure safe completion of the fueling operation. [2001 c.344 §2]

The statute allows the self-serve upon the request of the motorcyclist, but speaking from personal experience, most station attendants actually force you to self-serve.  Apparently, some motorcyclists had threatened litigation after an attendant spilled some fuel on their floorboards, so they pretty much force you to self-serve.

Regarding the cash vs. credit thing, most stations here offer the same price for both methods of payment, but there are a few stations around that do separate pricing.  That seems to be gaining traction, actually, as there's a 76 and a Shell in Cornelius, OR that charge about 10 cents extra to use a credit card.

There's also a new law going into effect that makes the practice of "topping" illegal.  By "topping", I mean when the gas tank is full, but the attendant overfills the tank to the nearest dollar so they don't have to give coin change. 

I lived in Washington state for a couple years, up in Ellensburg (right near the I-82/I-90 interchange).  And while most stations up there are self-serve, there's a 76 at Main and Capital that is full-serve (and cheaper than most of the other stations in town), so I was able to live like an Oregonian.

Perhaps my biggest pet peeve with some self-serve stations is when they make you pay before you can put gas in the car.  I understand they want to mitigate the gas-and-dash routine, but still, that seems a bit crazy--or maybe that's just the Oregonian in me who's not used to the modus operandi of self-serve.

-Alex (Tarkus)

[agentsteel53]

the best way to override an Oregon gas attendant is to immediately get out of the car and start pumping gas, and then to tell them with a firm hand "no".  It's like dog training.  Whacking them on the nose with a newspaper is optional.

the owner, operator or employee ... shall set the fuel dispensing device and hand the discharge nozzle to the operator of the motorcycle.

that is not self-serve.  I'm a big boy.  I can swipe my card, punch in my zip code, and select my grade of gas all by myself.

an attendant spilled some fuel on their floorboards

and you wonder why I don't trust gas-station attendants.  If they had the skills to do their job correctly, they'd be working a better job.  At the very least, apprentice mechanic for twelve dollars an hour.

They also top cars clumsily, allowing gasoline to squirt everywhere.  I have never topped off in my life; mainly it's so I refill the tank to the same level each time and get a decent idea of my fuel consumption, but also because it seems like a colossally unsafe idea. 

[mightyace]

I have never topped off in my life; mainly it's so I refill the tank to the same level each time and get a decent idea of my fuel consumption, but also because it seems like a colossally unsafe idea. 

I do top off because the automatic shutoff on pumps in Nashville area can be 1 - 3 gallons below full and it differs from station to station if not pump to pump.  I am careful and rarely spill gas and if so, not much.

[Chris]

I also always top off to measure my fuel consumption, because pumps on different stations do not shutoff at the same level. I usually keep pumping until I see it's almost full. That's usually half a gallon to a gallon after the first shutoff.

[Bryant5493]

A lot of stations that I go to have "Do Not Top Off" stickers, talking about vapor reclamation or something of the like.


Be well,

Bryant

[mightyace]

A lot of stations that I go to have "Do Not Top Off" stickers, talking about vapor reclamation or something of the like.


Be well,

Bryant

Same here.  The main reason I think people are worried about this is that many (most?) people are clumsy in topping off and won't stop until the gas spills out.

If you know how big your tank is and how accurate your gas gauge is, this should rarely be a problem.

So, I'll continue to "top off" until the Environmental Police stop me! 

[Bryant5493]

^^ lol @ the "Environmental Police"

I didn't really know that you could keep pumping past where it forced you to stop. The more you know, the more you grow.


Be well,

Bryant

[mightyace]

I didn't really know that you could keep pumping past where it forced you to stop. The more you know, the more you grow.


Be well,

Bryant

If you're truly near full, it will repeatedly stop when you try to put more in.  Usually, I stop when it pretty much refuses to add more.

Also, in some vehicles, like my Chevy G20 van, some pumps stop after less than 2 gallons if I'm not holding the pump.  (Especially the ones at Kroger.  )  For these, I have to hold the handle myself as it is gives a different angle and works, but I hate holding it for 25 or more gallons!

[Bryant5493]

^^ Yeah, that'd be killer. I hate holding the handle as well.


Be well,

Bryant

[Chris]

Also, in some vehicles, like my Chevy G20 van, some pumps stop after less than 2 gallons if I'm not holding the pump.  (Especially the ones at Kroger.  )  For these, I have to hold the handle myself as it is gives a different angle and works, but I hate holding it for 25 or more gallons!

They removed the automatic pumping a couple of years ago (before I started driving) in the Netherlands (and I think - most of Europe). Now you have to hold the pump all the way until you're finished.

I'm not sure how it works with trucks, because it would be a pain in the ass to hold that thing when pumping 200 gallons. European truck pumps pump 35 gallons per minute, but then you're still pumping for 6 minutes.

[njroadhorse]

The Weis Markets and Giant grocery store chains in PA also do the $0.10 discount.  There is one difference from how Kroger does it.  Kroger makes me do each $0.10 a discount at a time while the Weis and Giant let you use all accumulated discounts at once.

Where does Weis and Giant sell gas? The ones that I see are just grocery stores.

[Bryant5493]

Re: Chris' post about European service stations

Wow! That sucks. Why'd automatic pumping get removed?


Be well,

Bryant

[agentsteel53]

the worst is a pump that cuts off when you squeeze the handle completely, so you have to hold it at the precise level of halfway, while it dribbles in gas at about one gallon a minute.  Times like that are when I get enough gas to make it only to the next station!

[mightyace]

The Weis Markets and Giant grocery store chains in PA also do the $0.10 discount.  There is one difference from how Kroger does it.  Kroger makes me do each $0.10 a discount at a time while the Weis and Giant let you use all accumulated discounts at once.

Where does Weis and Giant sell gas? The ones that I see are just grocery stores.

I know both Weis and Giant have pumps in my hometown of Bloomsburg, PA.  The Giant in Briar Creek (Berwick), PA and Danville, PA have them as well.

I'd recommend checking their website to find locations with pumps.

[J N Winkler]

Regarding pump shutoffs and hold-open levers:

*  Most pumps in the US have a hold-open lever which is designed to allow the pump nozzle to be left in the car, dispensing gas, while the driver does something else (like cleaning the windshield) which allows him to avoid breathing the benzene fumes.  It is designed to release when the pump shutoff engages, so that there is no risk of fuel overflowing.  It usually has multiple settings, ideally at least three clicks between "pump as fast as possible" and "dribble fuel into the tank."  The multiple settings are necessary because certain designs of fuel tank cause the pump shutoff mechanism to engage when gas is pumped in faster than a certain rate.  From time to time you do run into pumps where the slowest setting on the hold-open lever is faster than your tank can handle and so, as Jake notes, you have to grasp the nozzle and breathe the benzene while the fuel trickles in.

*  It has been ages since I filled up a car in Britain or Ireland (the only two European countries where I have driven), but I don't think I have ever seen a hold-open lever on a petrol pump in either country.  The lack of them is a major nuisance, as is the lack of windshield washer fluid and squeegees (though I understand from Chris' postings in SkyscraperCity that these amenities are provided in continental Europe, which has more in common with the US in some respects than Britain has).

*  In my experience, "packing the tank" is most likely to happen when fuel is dispensed at such a slow rate that the pump shutoff does not engage until the tank is ready to overflow.  It is unsafe to "pack the tank" but not, I would contend, unsafe to top off.  My personal approach to topping off is to pump (using the hold-open lever) until the shutoff engages for the first time (ideally within 1-2 gallons of a complete fill), and then manually pump in additional gas, squeezing the handle more and more tightly, until the shutoff engages for the second time.

I think pumps everywhere in the First World now have automatic shutoffs.  It is not all that easy, however, to find material on the Web which explains how they work--I've looked several times.  I have always assumed that they are triggered by backpressure which develops as fuel is dispensed into the tank.  This, combined with the narrowness of the spouts in some tank designs, would explain why high rates of dispensing sometimes result in the shutoff being triggered prematurely.  I also wouldn't expect pump shutoffs to work with designs of tank (like jerrycans or motorcycle tanks) which allow air to vent freely around the nozzle.

[Bryant5493]

the worst is a pump that cuts off when you squeeze the handle completely, so you have to hold it at the precise level of halfway, while it dribbles in gas at about one gallon a minute.  Times like that are when I get enough gas to make it only to the next station!

Yes, those erk me to no end... then they'll cut off.

I went to one gas station (Shell) and moved the clip down to pump gas automatically. It cut off at $0.06. I tried to pump it manually, but it wouldn't work. So, I hung up the gas nozzle and tried it again. It still didn't work. I then went across the street to another gas station (Texaco).

So, on my transaction listing from Wachovia, it read, "Shell -- $0.06"; "Texaco -- $20.00."


Be well,

Bryant