Communicating with other drivers

[Rothman]

If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down,  knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.

Was this not a part of your driver's education???  How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?

Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).

Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?

I give up.  Whereas it only took about three or four tries to find an uncontrolled four-way intersection in the Chicago area, I couldn't find a single one after 15 tries in various towns and cities of New York.  Mind blown.

Uncontrolled intersections should are just like four-way stops, except without the stopping.  They're basically four-way yields.  Whoever gets there first goes first; if it's a close call, then the car on the right goes first.

jeffandnicole is/are right:  Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion.  If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns.  Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard.  And even if you know the right answer, why should you assume the other driver does?

T intersections have an implied yield sign for the terminating road.  This is typically codified into state law.

Up until just six months ago or so, there was an uncontrolled intersection on Dumbarton in Delmar, NY, I believe, but then they threw up stop signs everywhere.  Totally unnecessary, but it's a soccer mom neighborhood.

[jeffandnicole]

Again, I don't disagree, but I assume traffic unfamiliar with the area is usually <10% of all traffic; people who live in the neighborhood should know. Plus - on a semi-related note - a lot of new neighborhoods in NY seem to be built - perhaps intentionally? - with only three way intersections. Like this one. And this one. And this one (the one to the left of NY 250).

I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!

The only time this should be an issue is if a stop sign is knocked down or otherwise missing from an intersection.  While it should be replaced in short order, there's going to be a short period of time between when the sign is missing and when the police or replacement sign gets to the intersection.

Of course, coming from NJ, we have this literally written into our drivers manual regarding traffic circles that history dictates who has the right of way, especially as many older circles don't have any traffic control devices (Yield or Stop signs).  And it may not even be the highest-classification roadway, nor does it mean it's the same in both directions.  At a circle near me, the majority of traffic uses NJ 47 to the south, and US 130 to the north.  So, US 130 South has priority into the circle, yet US 130 North does NOT have priority into the circle!

From PDF Page 70: https://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/license/drivermanual.pdf

TRAFFIC CIRCLE

There are no set rules for driving into, around and out of a traffic circle in New Jersey. Common sense and caution must prevail at all times. In most cases, the circle's historically established traffic flow pattern dictates who has the right-of-way. If a major highway flows into and through the circle, it usually dominates the traffic flow pattern and commands the right-of-way. Traffic control signs, such as stop or yield signs, at the entrances to the circle also govern which motorist has the right-of-way. Never enter a traffic circle without checking all signs and determining the intentions of the motorists already moving within the circle.

Whenever a motorist is in doubt concerning who has the right-of-way in a circle, he/she should exercise extreme caution and remember the basic rule governing any uncontrolled intersection: The vehicle to the left yields the right-of-way to the vehicle approaching from the right.

I also never agreed with that last line, because it means those in the circle must yield to those entering the circle, which is the opposite of how they are supposed to work.

[kphoger]

jeffandnicole is/are right:  Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion.  If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns.  Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard.  And even if you know the right answer, why should you assume the other driver does?

Again, I don't disagree, but I assume traffic unfamiliar with the area is usually <10% of all traffic; people who live in the neighborhood should know. Plus - on a semi-related note - a lot of new neighborhoods in NY seem to be built - perhaps intentionally? - with only three way intersections. Like this one. And this one. And this one (the one to the left of NY 250).

I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!

Let's say 5% of the traffic is from out of the area.  Do you want 5% of the drivers to have to judge for themselves which street is supposed to stop?  If they're wrong just 20% of the time, that's 1% of the drivers incorrectly judging priority.  Even if the street only has one vehicle every two minutes (daytime), that's still about 500 vehicles per day.  1% of that is five people a day incorrectly judging priority.  With those odds, you should expect a car crash there about once a month.

But here's the bigger issue:  uncontrolled intersections are usually found in places where neither street is more significant than the other.  Otherwise, of course, there would probably be yield or stop signs controlling them.  In my neighborhood example, the street I live on doesn't have striping and neither do the two cross streets  All of them have driveways.  All of them lead to at least one arterial road.  A lot of people in town seem to just sort of assume that my street has the right of way because it's longer, but that's a pretty iffy determining factor.  Besides, friends and relatives coming into town for a birthday party aren't going to know that kind of thing anyway.

Except that if there actually were yield signs on all the approaches, everybody would stop and sit there, thinking the other people had the right-of-way. So I guess you just slow down and roll through if no one is coming - which is kind of cool, actually.

That's exactly how it works.  Most times I'm leaving the house, I don't have to stop because traffic is pretty light at those intersections.  Even when a car is crossing, I usually only have to slow down a bit.

(Sometimes, everybody just stops and sits there even without yield signs, because they still think the other people have the right of way.)

[Tonytone]

Downward hand-waving when attempting to slow drivers down due to an immediate hazard, usually in conjunction with four-way flashers and/or flashing headlights.

I once had to yell out the window of our car to a truck driver on I-44 in the middle of Saint Louis.  He was driving a double-trailer for ODFL, and the rollup door on the rear trailer either never got closed or else had opened up while he was driving.  At the tail end of the trailer, there were several empty wooden pallets standing on end behind his load, and they were falling out the back of the trailer one by one onto the highway.  In the middle of urban freeway traffic.  Right in front of me.  As a pallet would hit pavement, it would start skittling back and forth at 60 mph, first left, then right, until it came to a stop somewhere on the highway.  As much as I thoroughly enjoyed the game of dodge-pallet, I managed to catch up to the driver, motioned for him to roll down his window, and shouted across the lane, YOU'RE LOSING PALLETS!  Oh my, you should have seen his face darken when he finally understood what I was saying.  (He immediately exited the highway.)

I was driving on DE 301 one time & a 18 Wheeler had a Tire out & it was sparking from him going 55 MPH. I tried to speed up & wave him down, flash my lights, honk. But nothing worked, My turn came & he flew by me still doing the same speed. I don't know if he knew his tire was burnt out & he was trying to reach the truck stop ahead. Or if he really didn't know. Hope he found out.


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[RobbieL2415]

AFIAK there are no uncontrolled intersections on any public roadways in CT.  Parking lots are the only time you really encounter them and I doubt anyone here knows how they work.

[hotdogPi]

I was driving on DE 301

No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.

[Tonytone]

I was driving on DE 301

No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.

Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.


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[hotdogPi]

I was driving on DE 301

No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.

Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.

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US 301.

[Tonytone]

I was driving on DE 301

No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.

Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.

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US 301.

US 301 DE 301. I think we know that the highway isn't open yet.


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[kphoger]

I was driving on DE 301

No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.

Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.

US 301.

US 301 DE 301. I think we know that the highway isn't open yet.

Just admit you erroneously referred the highway as DE-301 and be done with it.  We all make mistakes.

[kphoger]

AFIAK there are no uncontrolled intersections on any public roadways in CT.  Parking lots are the only time you really encounter them and I doubt anyone here knows how they work.

It's exceedingly hard for me to even find a four-way intersection in CT that isn't paved, striped thoroughfares.  Maybe if NY and CT had more intersections that looked like this, uncontrolled intersections would be more common.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Parking lots are the only time you really encounter them and I doubt anyone here knows how they work.

From my understanding, the way insurance determines right-of-way for uncontrolled intersections in parking lot is that the thoroughfare has right-of-way over the feeder; that is, the road that either puts you onto the street or the road that puts you on the street after the least number of turns has priority over the lane feeding into that.

It's intuitive enough that drivers pretty much universally follow this despite being unaware of the rule.

[webny99]

I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!

Let's say 5% of the traffic is from out of the area.  Do you want 5% of the drivers to have to judge for themselves which street is supposed to stop?  If they're wrong just 20% of the time, that's 1% of the drivers incorrectly judging priority.  Even if the street only has one vehicle every two minutes (daytime), that's still about 500 vehicles per day.  1% of that is five people a day incorrectly judging priority.  With those odds, you should expect a car crash there about once a month.

Yep, given the above, I think there is agreement on this point. I concede significance of the street should not determine who has the right-of-way - unless there's going to be some form of traffic control.

[Tonytone]

I was driving on DE 301

No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.

Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.

US 301.

US 301 DE 301. I think we know that the highway isn't open yet.

Just admit you erroneously referred the highway as DE-301 and be done with it.  We all make mistakes.

You're right. But such a ignorant answer was not required.


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