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Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards

Started by X99, March 24, 2019, 04:28:56 PM

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Beltway

Quote from: PHLBOS on March 28, 2019, 11:36:02 AM
Quote from: Verlanka on March 28, 2019, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2019, 10:18:43 AM
Is I-44 in Oklahoma a violation of the rule that new Interstates cannot be toll roads, or was it grandfathered?
It was applied to the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes in the 1960s, and then extended down to the Bailey Turnpike in the 1980s. So probably both.
Similar happened w/portions of I-95 in both DE & MD (Delaware Turnpike & JFK Memorial Highway respectively).  Even though such were designated as part of the Interstate System from day one (other, older tolled facilities were grandfathered in); such were constructed as toll roads as a financial means of getting such built sooner rather than later.

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike looks like an addition to the original Interstate Highway System.  It doesn't even connect to another Interstate highway at its western end.
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US 89

Quote from: Beltway on March 28, 2019, 01:41:18 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 28, 2019, 11:36:02 AM
Quote from: Verlanka on March 28, 2019, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2019, 10:18:43 AM
Is I-44 in Oklahoma a violation of the rule that new Interstates cannot be toll roads, or was it grandfathered?
It was applied to the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes in the 1960s, and then extended down to the Bailey Turnpike in the 1980s. So probably both.
Similar happened w/portions of I-95 in both DE & MD (Delaware Turnpike & JFK Memorial Highway respectively).  Even though such were designated as part of the Interstate System from day one (other, older tolled facilities were grandfathered in); such were constructed as toll roads as a financial means of getting such built sooner rather than later.

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike looks like an addition to the original Interstate Highway System.  It doesn't even connect to another Interstate highway at its western end.

That's because it is – I-44 was only extended past I-35 in 1982, replacing the north half of I-240 in the process.

froggie

Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2019, 10:18:43 AM
Is I-44 in Oklahoma a violation of the rule that new Interstates cannot be toll roads, or was it grandfathered?

Actually, Federal law for the past several years has allowed "new Interstates" to be toll roads.

hbelkins

I don't really have an issue with the Cumberland section of I-68, except for the underposted speed limit. Only time I drive the posted speed limit there is if it's raining. Otherwise, I'm comfortable doing 50-55 through it. In this case, you have a modern freeway on either side of a one-mile stretch, so I'm not going to get too worked up over it. Neither am I concerned about the Kentucky parkways that might have medians not quite as wide as some rural interstates.

Probably the one I'm most familiar with that bothers me is I-70 between Washington and New Stanton, with the stop signs at the end of on-ramps.

Lots of people don't like I-78, but that one never bothered me, either. I never figured out what was so unsafe about it.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Beltway

Quote from: hbelkins on March 28, 2019, 03:08:17 PM
I don't really have an issue with the Cumberland section of I-68, except for the underposted speed limit. Only time I drive the posted speed limit there is if it's raining. Otherwise, I'm comfortable doing 50-55 through it. In this case, you have a modern freeway on either side of a one-mile stretch, so I'm not going to get too worked up over it.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com/I68_MD_CT.jpg

It is winding and has no shoulders and has a number of urban ramps.  I can't really say that it is underposted.
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bing101

I-580 between Oakland and Hayward does not meet interstate standards due to a truck ban between I-880 interchange to I-238.


sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on March 24, 2019, 08:38:45 PM
I-73 at Asheboro, NC
The only real section that violates interstate standards is the left exit, if you even want to call it that. It's not up to "ideal" standards, though it doesn't have any substandard features. It has 12 foot lanes, 10 foot shoulders, barrier median. The left exit isn't prohibited under interstate standards, the median is permitted, etc.

What's substandard about it? Ideally, the exit be on the right, a grassy median, etc. but it's not against minimum standards.

Now, if you want to talk substandard, I-73 south of this location still has 4 foot shoulders! NCDOT signed it I-73 / I-74 and still hasn't added 10 foot outside shoulders yet. That's definitely substandard and against interstate standards.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 28, 2019, 09:52:50 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 24, 2019, 08:38:45 PM
I-73 at Asheboro, NC
The only real section that violates interstate standards is the left exit, if you even want to call it that. It's not up to "ideal" standards, though it doesn't have any substandard features. It has 12 foot lanes, 10 foot shoulders, barrier median. The left exit isn't prohibited under interstate standards, the median is permitted, etc.

The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.  THSDOT needed to spend $345 million to bring that section up to full Interstate standards, but only spent $20 million.  It should not have been signed as I-73.
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http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on March 28, 2019, 09:59:32 PM
The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

The segment I described that has only 4 foot outer shoulders on the other hand is a clear violation, as the standards state a 10 foot outer paved shoulder must be provided.

roadman65

Quote from: Verlanka on March 28, 2019, 10:15:28 AM
Quote from: DJ Particle on March 28, 2019, 02:14:28 AM
Has anyone mentioned I-78 on either side of the Holland Tunnel?

Definitely:

Quote from: roadman65 on March 26, 2019, 12:01:55 AM
I-78 in New Jersey.  In Jersey City it becomes two surface streets. 12th Street EB from Jersey Avenue to the Holland Tunnel.  Then Boyle Plaza WB from the tunnel exit to the viaduct beginning at Jersey Avenue.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2019, 05:23:36 PM
Any Interstate within New York City limits. Narrow lanes and narrow shoulders and suicide entrance ramps.
Also in PA I-78 is not up to full standards from PA 100 to PA 61 west of Allentown.  That was part of US 22 before the interstate system and was a four lane expressway with at grade intersections.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 28, 2019, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 28, 2019, 09:59:32 PM
The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

There is no Interstate standard for pavement thickness, but a 4 inch thickness would obviously not last long under Interstate highway traffic volumes and large truck percentages.

If there is nothing wrong with left ramps (not just exits) then why not have them at every interchange?  They are clearly not standard as seen in their rarity and safety issues.

Just because something is not spelled out in black and white doesn't mean that it meets Interstate standards.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
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vdeane

Quote from: Beltway on March 28, 2019, 11:19:17 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 28, 2019, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 28, 2019, 09:59:32 PM
The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

There is no Interstate standard for pavement thickness, but a 4 inch thickness would obviously not last long under Interstate highway traffic volumes and large truck percentages.

If there is nothing wrong with left ramps (not just exits) then why not have them at every interchange?  They are clearly not standard as seen in their rarity and safety issues.

Just because something is not spelled out in black and white doesn't mean that it meets Interstate standards.
I'm pretty sure sprjus4 is talking about the FHWA regulations on the minimum design standards allowable for an interstate highway unless grandfathered in, NOT what one would ideally look like.  Unless I completely misread the point of this thread, it's for outright violations of the regulations, not stuff that is merely below average.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kphoger

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2019, 01:04:36 PM
it's for outright violations of the regulations, not stuff that is merely below average.

Half the Interstate system is below average.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

sprjus4

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2019, 01:04:36 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 28, 2019, 11:19:17 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 28, 2019, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 28, 2019, 09:59:32 PM
The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

There is no Interstate standard for pavement thickness, but a 4 inch thickness would obviously not last long under Interstate highway traffic volumes and large truck percentages.

If there is nothing wrong with left ramps (not just exits) then why not have them at every interchange?  They are clearly not standard as seen in their rarity and safety issues.

Just because something is not spelled out in black and white doesn't mean that it meets Interstate standards.
I'm pretty sure sprjus4 is talking about the FHWA regulations on the minimum design standards allowable for an interstate highway unless grandfathered in, NOT what one would ideally look like.  Unless I completely misread the point of this thread, it's for outright violations of the regulations, not stuff that is merely below average.
Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.

Of course they shouldn't be built in new construction. The interchange was built apart of 60s construction, when left exits were acceptable, just like a lot of current interstate highways. Should we remove their designations until they are corrected?

sparker

For about 55 years after it was built ca. 1959, I-80 from Colfax east to Yuba Gap, CA lacked any inner shoulders (much less the 4' Interstate minimum); it was 2+2 with (originally) a steel beam barrier, later replaced by a K-rail.  The substandard segment has since shrunk to about the first 3 miles east of Colfax itself to approximately where the twin UP trestles cross over the freeway.  East of there, the median has been brought out to about the minimum; some of that length of widened median was part of a project to add a truck climbing lane EB.  Coincidentally, a large paved area has been constructed south of the traffic lanes and gradually sloped up the adjacent hillside; this could be for either hillside ground stabilization or even snow management.

vdeane

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 29, 2019, 04:54:41 PM
Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.
Interesting... I thought FHWA had stopped grandfathering in newly designated interstate highways?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

sprjus4

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2019, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 29, 2019, 04:54:41 PM
Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.
Interesting... I thought FHWA had stopped grandfathering in newly designated interstate highways?
Certain sections of older freeways can be incorporated. Long bridges with a right shoulder at least 3 feet wide can be incorporated, substandard features such as left exits (though still technically not against interstate standards), etc.

If an existing freeway is serving fine without any issues, there's no point to completely reconstruct it just to have "ideal" and "modern" designs. This is why these substandard, yet workable features can still be incorporated.

Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 29, 2019, 09:47:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2019, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 29, 2019, 04:54:41 PM
Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.
Interesting... I thought FHWA had stopped grandfathering in newly designated interstate highways?
Certain sections of older freeways can be incorporated. Long bridges with a right shoulder at least 3 feet wide can be incorporated, substandard features such as left exits (though still technically not against interstate standards), etc.
If an existing freeway is serving fine without any issues, there's no point to completely reconstruct it just to have "ideal" and "modern" designs. This is why these substandard, yet workable features can still be incorporated.

Depends on the definition of "serving fine without any issues".  They shouldn't be accepted into a 21st century Interstate highway just because some local politician gets his jollies by the red-white-and-blue sign.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

thspfc

I-180 in Illinois violates the general standard of being important.

Hurricane Rex

In response to Brandon: I-82 also violates the numbering standard by primarily being a N/S interstate instead of E/W interstate (caused by the original plan to come from Tacoma and over Naches Pass).

In response to KP Hoger: I will admit that I haven't been through there since September, so my memory might be a little foggy. I'm also not going through a good time in my life right now in all aspects. All I remember was it was around the Rooster Rock area (if it exists). It might not be against standards but I thought it was.

Did anyone mention the Interstate bridge or Marqum bridge yet? Both have narrower lanes, and no shoulders. Also the Freemont Bridge is borderline but I think it makes the cut of being standard.

And there are no plans to widen the I-82 bridge.

And can I add I-5 in the Willamette Valley for that ridiculous 65T60 limit? :bigass:

LG-TP260

ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

Road and weather geek for life.

Running till I die.

roadman65

Since the I-280 and NJ 21 interchange project is completed, is I-280 now finally up to standards non widthstanding the Stickle Drawbridge?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Verlanka

Quote from: thspfc on March 30, 2019, 02:17:44 PM
I-180 in Illinois violates the general standard of being important.

But it's still up to interstate standards, though.

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on March 30, 2019, 03:22:13 PM

And can I add I-5 in the Willamette Valley for that ridiculous 65T60 limit? :bigass:

LG-TP260

Sure, go, ahead. :nod:

23skidoo

#72
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 24, 2019, 07:57:16 PM
I-75 on the Mackinac Bridge and on 5he exit to itself in downtown Detroit. Nothing else I can really think of in Michigan.

I suspect the curve in I-75 at 9 mile in Hazel Park doesn't meet FHWA standards. There's been some serious accidents there. Currently, there's a section where you can't legally change lanes because of the tightness of the curve.

Flint1979

Quote from: 23skidoo on March 31, 2019, 10:39:55 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 24, 2019, 07:57:16 PM
I-75 on the Mackinac Bridge and on 5he exit to itself in downtown Detroit. Nothing else I can really think of in Michigan.

I suspect the curve in I-75 at 9 mile in Hazel Park doesn't meet FHWA standards. There's been some serious accidents there. Currently, there's a section where you can't legally change lanes because of the tightness of the curve.
I think that curve is up to interstate standards but it slows down to 50 or 55 I can't remember which right now but you can't change lanes on the curve the Big Beaver curve is like that too well at least for now it's under construction right now.

Flint1979

As far as the solid white lines go that is just discouraging you from changing lanes it doesn't mean that you can't change lanes I think we had a discussion and another post about an S curve on US-131 in downtown Grand Rapids.



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