Quote from: 7/8 on March 06, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81" designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81" going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81" label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too" situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.
I feel like this makes sense as a business loop. It connects to I-81 on both ends and provides access to businesses (restaurants, gas stations, etc.). Business loops are normally surface streets, so it doesn't seem deceiving to me.
Part of the problem is that "business loop" is something totally uncommon for northeast. As far as I can tell, there are none in NY, 2 in PA, one in NH, and
maybe 2 in CT. It makes too little sense for most locals.
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2023, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 06, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81" designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81" going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81" label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too" situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.
I feel like this makes sense as a business loop. It connects to I-81 on both ends and provides access to businesses (restaurants, gas stations, etc.). Business loops are normally surface streets, so it doesn't seem deceiving to me.
Part of the problem is that "business loop" is something totally uncommon for northeast. As far as I can tell, there are none in NY, 2 in PA, one in NH, and maybe 2 in CT. It makes too little sense for most locals.
I think the BLs in Connecticut were decommissioned years ago. There was BL-84 which ran through Newtown. The western end was at I-84 Exit 9. It followed Route 25 south to US-6, then east on US-6, back to I-84 at Exit 10. The other BL I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong), was BL-95 that was in and around Groton...maybe New London/Waterford, but somehwere around there, IIRC. I don't know of any other BLs in CT that existed.
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2023, 12:16:05 PMPart of the problem is that "business loop" is something totally uncommon for northeast. As far as I can tell, there are none in NY, 2 in PA, one in NH, and maybe 2 in CT. It makes too little sense for most locals.
Pennsylvania: BL 83 in York has been the only one that I've known of all my life. Where's the other one?
And where's the one in New Hampshire?
Quote from: ixnay on March 07, 2023, 07:21:59 AM
And where's the one in New Hampshire?
US 3, Laconia.
Quote from: ixnay on March 07, 2023, 07:21:59 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2023, 12:16:05 PMPart of the problem is that "business loop" is something totally uncommon for northeast. As far as I can tell, there are none in NY, 2 in PA, one in NH, and maybe 2 in CT. It makes too little sense for most locals.
Pennsylvania: BL 83 in York has been the only one that I've known of all my life. Where's the other one?
And where's the one in New Hampshire?
My profound knowledge of business interstate loops was copied and pasted from this article:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_business_routes_of_the_Interstate_Highway_System
BL I-376 near Pittsburgh Airport.
There was once BL I-89 in Lebanon, NH as well as BS I-495 in Lowell.
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 07:25:36 AM
Quote from: ixnay on March 07, 2023, 07:21:59 AM
And where's the one in New Hampshire?
US 3, Laconia.
Is there a reason why this one would count but not other bannered US routes?
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2023, 12:43:43 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 07:25:36 AM
Quote from: ixnay on March 07, 2023, 07:21:59 AM
And where's the one in New Hampshire?
US 3, Laconia.
Is there a reason why this one would count but not other bannered US routes?
The one in the list was BL I-89 in Lebanon, not the one I mentioned. I wasn't even aware that there was a BL I-89 in Lebanon (although BlueOutback7 says it's gone now, which would explain it), so I thought it was referring to US 3 in Laconia. The list doesn't include bannered US routes at all.
Mods should split out the generic BL discussion into another thread.
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 07:04:26 PM
Mods should split out the generic BL discussion into another thread.
I concur, please do
New topic for Interstate business loops in the Northeast region now created. Posts judged to focus specifically on the possibility of an I-81 business loop in Syracuse have been left in the I-81 in Syracuse thread. --J N Winkler
So, do we think it's a good idea to bring barely known concept into NY, or NY could live without it?
If either a Business 81 is designated or an Interstate designation along the northern segment and a state highway designation of the same number is designated instead (which is the more-common practice of New York State), I would be totally fine with it.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 07, 2023, 08:04:31 AM
BL I-376 near Pittsburgh Airport.
Ah yes, forgot about that one.
I've always thought of Business Loops as something most common in the West, and to a certain extent, the South. Also, MI (a Midwestern state) has Business Loops, but none of the states bordering it do.
I think the reason they aren't normally used in the Northeastern states is due to confusion purposes. For example, if there was a BL I-93 from roughly Downtown Boston up through Charlestown via MA 99 up to Somerville, they'd both be referred to as 93 which would be confusing. However, I was just through York, PA and have never heard any issues between I-83 and BL 83.
Weren't BL's originally created as a reaction to local businesses who protested (rightfully so) that they'd go broke from the new (at the time) interstate bypassing their town?
So, they can be as simple as old US 66 through Gallup, NM or as major as Colfax Avenue in Denver (which was the main drag prior to I-70). Both have been marked as BLs. The northeast was never really set up like this. Main street was rarely bypassed and cut off as happened farther west thanks to the population density and redundancy of a more developed highway system back 60 years ago. That's my guess as to why you rarely see the green shield in the northeast - even VA has very few if any.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on March 08, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
I think the reason they aren't normally used in the Northeastern states is due to confusion purposes. For example, if there was a BL I-93 from roughly Downtown Boston up through Charlestown via MA 99 up to Somerville, they'd both be referred to as 93 which would be confusing. However, I was just through York, PA and have never heard any issues between I-83 and BL 83.
This might be my own experience but people mostly say "I-93" not "route 93" or just "93" when talking about I-93 in specific.
I personally think we should decommission all of them. They're far less useful in the era of Google Maps/Waze.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 08, 2023, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on March 08, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
I think the reason they aren't normally used in the Northeastern states is due to confusion purposes. For example, if there was a BL I-93 from roughly Downtown Boston up through Charlestown via MA 99 up to Somerville, they'd both be referred to as 93 which would be confusing. However, I was just through York, PA and have never heard any issues between I-83 and BL 83.
This might be my own experience but people mostly say "I-93" not "route 93" or just "93" when talking about I-93 in specific.
Root 9.
Quote from: Rothman on March 08, 2023, 06:44:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 08, 2023, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on March 08, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
I think the reason they aren't normally used in the Northeastern states is due to confusion purposes. For example, if there was a BL I-93 from roughly Downtown Boston up through Charlestown via MA 99 up to Somerville, they'd both be referred to as 93 which would be confusing. However, I was just through York, PA and have never heard any issues between I-83 and BL 83.
This might be my own experience but people mostly say "I-93" not "route 93" or just "93" when talking about I-93 in specific.
Root 9.
Well state and US highways are always known as "route".
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 12:45:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2023, 12:43:43 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 07:25:36 AM
Quote from: ixnay on March 07, 2023, 07:21:59 AM
And where's the one in New Hampshire?
US 3, Laconia.
Is there a reason why this one would count but not other bannered US routes?
The one in the list was BL I-89 in Lebanon, not the one I mentioned. I wasn't even aware that there was a BL I-89 in Lebanon (although BlueOutback7 says it's gone now, which would explain it), so I thought it was referring to US 3 in Laconia. The list doesn't include bannered US routes at all.
In 2006 there was a single remaining BL I-89 sign in Lebanon that was gone by the time GSV became a thing, kind of like the one BS I-495 sign off exit 4 in Lowell.
At least in NY, it seems like the parts of NY that are north of NJ differentiate interstates from state and US routes, while the parts north of PA don't. Rochester in particular talks about "Route 390", "Route 490", "Route 590", and "the Thruway" instead of I-390/NY 390, I-490, I-590/NY 590, and I-90.
Quote from: vdeane on March 08, 2023, 08:37:54 PM
At least in NY, it seems like the parts of NY that are north of NJ differentiate interstates from state and US routes, while the parts north of PA don't. Rochester in particular talks about "Route 390", "Route 490", "Route 590", and "the Thruway" instead of I-390/NY 390, I-490, I-590/NY 590, and I-90.
Spot on. Syracuse is the same way as Rochester. And for some reason Buffalo folks occasionally just add "the", "the 190", "the mainline". I've never heard anyone in Syracuse differentiate between I-690 and NY 690, it's just Route 690. Same with I-481/NY 481. So for most in Syracuse they'll have two "Route 81"s.
Around Albany, we do use "interstate" for the interstate system, but this brings with it the problem of calling NY 787 "Interstate 787" despite the at-grades. And then there's "Alternate Route 7".
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Around Albany, we do use "interstate" for the interstate system, but this brings with it the problem of calling NY 787 "Interstate 787" despite the at-grades. And then there's "Alternate Route 7".
DOn't forget Northway and Thruway. And I had people giving me directions to interstate 85 in Albany.
For local one-time driving taking a penalty of non-highway routing isn't that bad. And people tend to smarten up and find a good, if not the best, road for their daily, and even weekly, trips anyway. So I don't think confusion on road type is that bad in general, but having an intersection of 81 and 81 is a bad idea.
Quote from: Henry on March 07, 2023, 10:11:54 PM
I've always thought of Business Loops as something most common in the West, and to a certain extent, the South. Also, MI (a Midwestern state) has Business Loops, but none of the states bordering it do.
Michigan also decommissions US routes like the western states do with none around it does. Although one can argue Ohio as it decommissioned both US 21 and US 25, but nonetheless it has a big gap between it and the west with many states that don't decommission routes.
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Around Albany, we do use "interstate" for the interstate system, but this brings with it the problem of calling NY 787 "Interstate 787" despite the at-grades. And then there's "Alternate Route 7".
Alt 7...
Quote from: vdeane on March 08, 2023, 08:37:54 PM
At least in NY, it seems like the parts of NY that are north of NJ differentiate interstates from state and US routes, while the parts north of PA don't. Rochester in particular talks about "Route 390", "Route 490", "Route 590", and "the Thruway" instead of I-390/NY 390, I-490, I-590/NY 590, and I-90.
I actually don't hear "route" that often; it's usually just the number with no descriptor, such as "I hit traffic on 590" or "Take 104 west". To your point, there's almost never a distinction made between the interstate and state route portions of 390 and 590. And I certainly agree that I-90 is always "the Thruway".
And the Buffalo region calls everything "The". "The 33". "The 290". Etc. It's like they collectively decided to copy Los Angeles lingo :)
Quote from: wilbur_the_goose on August 26, 2023, 06:55:44 PM
And the Buffalo region calls everything "The". "The 33". "The 290". Etc. It's like they collectively decided to copy Los Angeles lingo :)
Toronto lingo, probably :)
Quote from: abqtraveler on March 06, 2023, 05:21:55 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2023, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 06, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81" designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81" going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81" label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too" situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.
I feel like this makes sense as a business loop. It connects to I-81 on both ends and provides access to businesses (restaurants, gas stations, etc.). Business loops are normally surface streets, so it doesn't seem deceiving to me.
Part of the problem is that "business loop" is something totally uncommon for northeast. As far as I can tell, there are none in NY, 2 in PA, one in NH, and maybe 2 in CT. It makes too little sense for most locals.
I think the BLs in Connecticut were decommissioned years ago. There was BL-84 which ran through Newtown. The western end was at I-84 Exit 9. It followed Route 25 south to US-6, then east on US-6, back to I-84 at Exit 10. The other BL I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong), was BL-95 that was in and around Groton...maybe New London/Waterford, but somehwere around there, IIRC. I don't know of any other BLs in CT that existed.
:rolleyes: it's maybeeee...