US40 (I-170) original signage

[cpzilliacus]

As I recall from Kozel's website, while opposition is largely what killed I-70, I-83 died because of cost.  Even with 90% Federal funding, the local share was too much for the city to afford.

The plans that I recall for I-83 were really, really bad (IMO worse than I-70). The proposed route of I-83 would have done immense damage to the Canton area of Baltimore City.

A member of the Baltimore City Council at the time that I-83 through Canton was being debated helped to make her political career by opposing it - her name was Barbara Mikulski, currently the senior U.S. Senator representing Maryland.

[kj3400]

I'm curious about the route I-83 was supposed to take. The abandoned ramp stubs at the Moravia Rd exit seem a bit far north don't they?

[NE2]

I'm curious about the route I-83 was supposed to take. The abandoned ramp stubs at the Moravia Rd exit seem a bit far north don't they?

I-83 would have gone to the stubs at O'Donnell. The Moravia stubs would have tied into the sharp curve on I-695 at Chesaco.

[froggie]

In addition, Moravia was to have become a freeway under the 1964 BMATS plan.

[PHLBOS]

Once the original I-83 extension was shot down; was there any alternative freeway alignment considered?

Looking at a map, one logical alignment alternative would have been to extend I-83 due south or southwest to I-395's northern terminus and redesignate I-395 as I-83.

[froggie]

No.  Once the 83 extension was done, that was it.  No more new Baltimore freeways.  The proposal to do what you suggest (part of the original freeway system planning) died over a decade before the I-83 extension did, back when the plan for I-95 shifted from crossing the Inner Harbor to putting it in what was built as the Fort McHenry Tunnel.

[cpzilliacus]

No.  Once the 83 extension was done, that was it.  No more new Baltimore freeways.  The proposal to do what you suggest (part of the original freeway system planning) died over a decade before the I-83 extension did, back when the plan for I-95 shifted from crossing the Inner Harbor to putting it in what was built as the Fort McHenry Tunnel.

The artistic renderings of the I-95 crossing of the Inner Harbor on a high bridge were really, really awful.  Almost as if they  had been drawn by a group opposed to routing I-95 that way.   

The construction of the crossing as the Fort McHenry  Tunnel was the right solution to the problem.  You can stand on the grass at Fort McHenry looking out in the direction of the Francis Scott Key Bridge and not even know that there are 12 lanes of Interstate highway crossing close by. 

[froggie]

Presuming you're counting the Harbor Tunnel in that, though it's a little over a half-mile away from the southeast tip of Fort McHenry.

[cpzilliacus]

Presuming you're counting the Harbor Tunnel in that, though it's a little over a half-mile away from the southeast tip of Fort McHenry.

I am. 

The BHT (I-895) portal on the north side is very close to the FMT (I-95) north portal in the Canton area, but they diverge from there, and the south portal of the BHT in the Fairfield section of Baltimore City is rather far from the south portal of the FMT in the Locust Point area of Baltimore.  Still, imagine what the view from Fort McHenry would have been like if both the FMT and BHT had been built as above-water crossings.

[kj3400]

I don't want to think about it.
I live in Brooklyn, just south of I-895 and, at this park near my job, have a clear view of downtown, the port and everything I wouldn't be able to see if I-95 had an ugly bridge cutting across the Harbor. I can imagine Fort McHenry wouldn't be so popular sitting in I-95's shadow.

[SteveG1988]

I don't want to think about it.
I live in Brooklyn, just south of I-895 and, at this park near my job, have a clear view of downtown, the port and everything I wouldn't be able to see if I-95 had an ugly bridge cutting across the Harbor. I can imagine Fort McHenry wouldn't be so popular sitting in I-95's shadow.

Think about the highway having to rise up and over the harbor entry, would probably be similar to the platt bridge in philly

[cpzilliacus]

I don't want to think about it.

Agreed.

I live in Brooklyn, just south of I-895 and, at this park near my job, have a clear view of downtown, the port and everything I wouldn't be able to see if I-95 had an ugly bridge cutting across the Harbor. I can imagine Fort McHenry wouldn't be so popular sitting in I-95's shadow.

Imagine both I-95 and I-895 on their current alignments as bridges instead of in tunnels.  That would have been even worse.

I was not so enthused about the I-695 Outer Harbor Crossing (that was the planning name, now the F.S. Key Bridge) being a large bridge, but it's far enough out from the Inner Harbor that it does not loom over Fort McHenry. 

According to Scott Kozel's excellent historical write-up, the MdTA had envisioned it as a two-lane tunnel, but it became a four-lane bridge (with Super-2 approaches on both sides) because the cost was less.

[cpzilliacus]

I don't want to think about it.
I live in Brooklyn, just south of I-895 and, at this park near my job, have a clear view of downtown, the port and everything I wouldn't be able to see if I-95 had an ugly bridge cutting across the Harbor. I can imagine Fort McHenry wouldn't be so popular sitting in I-95's shadow.

Think about the highway having to rise up and over the harbor entry, would probably be similar to the platt bridge in philly

Perhaps the Girard Point Bridge (I-95) would be a better comparison? 

[Mergingtraffic]

Found a website about the MARC project, that involves tearing down part of the US-40 stub.


This PDF has some plans complete with old signage in some of the drawings.
http://www.wbmarcproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/MTA_WBMARC_Project_Update_2014_0224.pdf

Also, one sentence concerns me:
The removal of the wall or highway to nowhere.  Hopefully not the whole thing.
http://www.wbmarcproject.com/projects/parking-expansion-enhancements/

So, what is there and what isn't? Google Maps isn't updated past 2011.  More signage gone?

[TheOneKEA]

Found a website about the MARC project, that involves tearing down part of the US-40 stub.


This PDF has some plans complete with old signage in some of the drawings.
http://www.wbmarcproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/MTA_WBMARC_Project_Update_2014_0224.pdf

Also, one sentence concerns me:
The removal of the wall or highway to nowhere.  Hopefully not the whole thing.
http://www.wbmarcproject.com/projects/parking-expansion-enhancements/

So, what is there and what isn't? Google Maps isn't updated past 2011.  More signage gone?

The most conspicuous absence is the old US 1 sign bridge showing the one-way paired street names.

[bugo]

Hopefully one day there will be a resurgence of freeway building and the Baltimore freeway system will be completed (and supplemented by other new freeways).

[kj3400]

Hopefully one day there will be a resurgence of freeway building and the Baltimore freeway system will be completed (and supplemented by other new freeways).

As hopeful as that sounds (I share the same sentiment), I don't know how it would happen. I-70's getting truncated at the Beltway because of the Red Line project and I'm not sure how they'd deal with I-83.

[froggie]

Simply put, it won't.  I-70 would have to go deep bore ($$$$$$$) to avoid Leakin Park and Gwyns Falls, and I-83 has a harbor and historic neighborhoods in the way.

[TheOneKEA]

Simply put, it won't.  I-70 would have to go deep bore ($$$$$$$) to avoid Leakin Park and Gwyns Falls, and I-83 has a harbor and historic neighborhoods in the way.

I-83 is FAR more likely to be finished in comparison to I-70, even though the former would also need deep bore tunnels to avoid Fells Point. I think it is highly unlikely that central Maryland will see another freeway similar in size and footprint to the ICC built anytime soon, even with the most lavish environmental mitigation ever devised. I-83 has far fewer environmental concerns in comparison.

That being said, anyone who has read The Big Roads by Earl Swift will understand just how inflammatory any extension of I-70 would be, because people have LONG memories and will remember just how much of a mess the SRC and the city planners made when planning I-70 throug West Baltimore.

[cpzilliacus]

That being said, anyone who has read The Big Roads by Earl Swift will understand just how inflammatory any extension of I-70 would be, because people have LONG memories and will remember just how much of a mess the SRC and the city planners made when planning I-70 throug West Baltimore.

Though if there is one place in Maryland that would likely benefit from a modern freeway connection to the outside world, it's West Baltimore.

[bugo]

That being said, anyone who has read The Big Roads by Earl Swift will understand just how inflammatory any extension of I-70 would be, because people have LONG memories and will remember just how much of a mess the SRC and the city planners made when planning I-70 throug West Baltimore.

Long memories don't last forever.  These folks will eventually die and there's always the chance that the younger generations will be pro-freeway and the system will be completed.  Never say never.

[cpzilliacus]

Long memories don't last forever.  These folks will eventually die and there's always the chance that the younger generations will be pro-freeway and the system will be completed.  Never say never.

How many injuries and deaths (and missed economic development opportunities) have to happen before those people die?

[bugo]

Long memories don't last forever.  These folks will eventually die and there's always the chance that the younger generations will be pro-freeway and the system will be completed.  Never say never.

How many injuries and deaths (and missed economic development opportunities) have to happen before those people die?

I know right?  These folks have blood on their hands.

Don't forget about wasted time and more pollution because of the design of the road.

[Henry]

Simply put, it won't.  I-70 would have to go deep bore ($$$$$$$) to avoid Leakin Park and Gwyns Falls, and I-83 has a harbor and historic neighborhoods in the way.

I-83 is FAR more likely to be finished in comparison to I-70, even though the former would also need deep bore tunnels to avoid Fells Point. I think it is highly unlikely that central Maryland will see another freeway similar in size and footprint to the ICC built anytime soon, even with the most lavish environmental mitigation ever devised. I-83 has far fewer environmental concerns in comparison.

That being said, anyone who has read The Big Roads by Earl Swift will understand just how inflammatory any extension of I-70 would be, because people have LONG memories and will remember just how much of a mess the SRC and the city planners made when planning I-70 throug West Baltimore.

The same can be said about I-66 and I-95 going through Washington, DC.

[Alps]

Simply put, it won't.  I-70 would have to go deep bore ($$$$$$$) to avoid Leakin Park and Gwyns Falls, and I-83 has a harbor and historic neighborhoods in the way.

I-83 is FAR more likely to be finished in comparison to I-70, even though the former would also need deep bore tunnels to avoid Fells Point. I think it is highly unlikely that central Maryland will see another freeway similar in size and footprint to the ICC built anytime soon, even with the most lavish environmental mitigation ever devised. I-83 has far fewer environmental concerns in comparison.

That being said, anyone who has read The Big Roads by Earl Swift will understand just how inflammatory any extension of I-70 would be, because people have LONG memories and will remember just how much of a mess the SRC and the city planners made when planning I-70 throug West Baltimore.

The same can be said about I-66 and I-95 going through Washington, DC.

On the one hand, I-95 can easily make it through DC by extending the tunnel. It's costly, but we theoretically could have the funding and technology to get it done with minimal disruption in the future. But on the other hand, do you want to be adding any traffic to I-395? I'm gonna say "no" to that one. On the other hand, completing I-70 and I-83 would actually bring a benefit to traffic along those corridors and their connections to I-95.