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Shoulder Lanes Dangerous or Useful

Started by Georgia Guardrail, September 19, 2022, 07:48:07 PM

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Alps

Quote from: sprjus4 on September 23, 2022, 12:12:37 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2022, 10:11:14 PM
While we're focusing on freeways, NJ took it one step further and made one of the more localized sections of US 1 that has 2 lanes per direction, driveways and cross streets, and a 55 mph speed limit, and converted the right shoulders to a part-time travel lane.   Termed "Hard Shoulder Running", the lane is equipped with overhead red X's or green arrows when the lane is open or closed.  Nearly every driveway and road entering US 1 has a sign installed explaining the possibility of encountering traffic on the shoulder.

Mainline US 1: https://goo.gl/maps/fNARwa6U1M2A3PCN9
Mainline US 1: https://goo.gl/maps/Fh4zQ59CzD2AdZmA8
Entering US 1 from a side street/parking lot: https://goo.gl/maps/dDnGm9MZjGWLz8Vc8
Why don't they just slightly widen the pavement and turn it into a permanent travel lane? It's not a freeway facility and does not have conform to having full paved shoulders.
Utility poles. If you touch the curbs, every single pole has to move (they've done this in a couple locations like the CR 522 intersection - basically anywhere you have 3 lanes or more each way was widened). That is hella expensive. Then you get into relocating every single driveway back 3 feet and the right of way impacts (since the edge line would be lower AND closer to the property). That is why.


Ted$8roadFan

I-95/MA-128 used to allow use of the breakdown lane between MA-9 in Needham and MA-24 in Randolph back when that section was six lanes before the widening was completed.

Ted$8roadFan

Almost forgot this is a regional board.....

Having just returned from a road trip thru the southeast, and based on my (admittedly limited) impressions, I would actually discourage the use of shoulder lane travel. The number of vehicles on the shoulder, esp. trucks, kept Waze quite busy ("vehicle stopped on shoulder ahead" ) and use of the shoulder might be quite dangerous.

roadman65

I remember one particular Summer living up in NJ, when many folks would flock to Six Flags Great Adventure on weekends. One particular Saturday we went to the park and approaching Exit 7A there was stopped traffic from all feeding into the single lane ramp to patronize the theme park. 

Believe it or not, when all three lanes were stopped, some rogue drivers would bypass the line on the shoulder until all three lanes plus the shoulder were clogged.  About one half mile prior to the 7A split you had four lanes of stopped traffic on a three lane carriage way.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

1995hoo

Quote from: roadman65 on November 01, 2022, 07:46:44 AM
I remember one particular Summer living up in NJ, when many folks would flock to Six Flags Great Adventure on weekends. One particular Saturday we went to the park and approaching Exit 7A there was stopped traffic from all feeding into the single lane ramp to patronize the theme park. 

Believe it or not, when all three lanes were stopped, some rogue drivers would bypass the line on the shoulder until all three lanes plus the shoulder were clogged.  About one half mile prior to the 7A split you had four lanes of stopped traffic on a three lane carriage way.

Why would anyone doubt that? I take it as more or less a given that some people will do that and that other people will straddle the line between the traffic lane and the shoulder to try to block them from doing it. The people who are really dangerous are the ones who will roar along the shoulder at relatively high speeds relative to the stopped traffic.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

webny99

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 01, 2022, 07:46:44 AM
...
Believe it or not, when all three lanes were stopped, some rogue drivers would bypass the line on the shoulder until all three lanes plus the shoulder were clogged.  About one half mile prior to the 7A split you had four lanes of stopped traffic on a three lane carriage way.

Why would anyone doubt that? I take it as more or less a given that some people will do that and that other people will straddle the line between the traffic lane and the shoulder to try to block them from doing it. The people who are really dangerous are the ones who will roar along the shoulder at relatively high speeds relative to the stopped traffic.

There's no reason to doubt it anywhere in the Bos-Wash corridor, but it's less common in other parts of the country, where stopped traffic more often than not means there's been an incident of some sort rather than just recurring congestion.

I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen the shoulder become used as a de-facto travel lane here in upstate NY, and the times I can recall have all been incident-related.

kphoger

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on November 01, 2022, 07:11:39 AM
Almost forgot this is a regional board.....

I didn't even know it was a regional topic until you said that.  The thread topic doesn't have anything to do with a specific region.  I ignore the board name listed next to the thread topic when I'm going through the "Show unread posts since your last visit" list.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

vdeane

Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 08:30:17 AM
I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen the shoulder become used as a de-facto travel lane here in upstate NY, and the times I can recall have all been incident-related.
This work zone setup on the Lake Ontario State Parkway stands out to me.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

wanderer2575

The US-23 freeway north of Ann Arbor has part-time use of the left shoulder as a travel lane.  There are frequent indicators (red X or green down arrow) of which lanes are open (they don't show well in Streetview).  Usually the shoulder is used only during weekday rush hours, but the indicator system allows it for other times such as before and after Michigan home football games, or an accident in a travel lane (in which case the indicators show which lane is closed ahead).

roadman65

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 01, 2022, 07:46:44 AM
I remember one particular Summer living up in NJ, when many folks would flock to Six Flags Great Adventure on weekends. One particular Saturday we went to the park and approaching Exit 7A there was stopped traffic from all feeding into the single lane ramp to patronize the theme park. 

Believe it or not, when all three lanes were stopped, some rogue drivers would bypass the line on the shoulder until all three lanes plus the shoulder were clogged.  About one half mile prior to the 7A split you had four lanes of stopped traffic on a three lane carriage way.

Why would anyone doubt that? I take it as more or less a given that some people will do that and that other people will straddle the line between the traffic lane and the shoulder to try to block them from doing it. The people who are really dangerous are the ones who will roar along the shoulder at relatively high speeds relative to the stopped traffic.

We had an issue on I-4 when a driver did that. He sped by everyone at high speed during a routine traffic jam near Sanford, FL and encountered a disabled vehicle. Needless to say the driver on the shoulder had a gun and later ended up on trial for murder of the disabled driver.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

kphoger

Quote from: roadman65 on November 01, 2022, 03:12:25 PM
Needless to say the driver on the shoulder had a gun and later ended up on trial for murder of the disabled driver.

That wasn't needless to say.  It was neither clearly implied nor a logical conclusion that people could be expected to make.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Rothman

Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 03:56:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 01, 2022, 03:12:25 PM
Needless to say the driver on the shoulder had a gun and later ended up on trial for murder of the disabled driver.

That wasn't needless to say.  It was neither clearly implied nor a logical conclusion that people could be expected to make.
I think your statement was needless to say.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

roadman65

Quote from: Rothman on November 01, 2022, 09:54:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 03:56:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 01, 2022, 03:12:25 PM
Needless to say the driver on the shoulder had a gun and later ended up on trial for murder of the disabled driver.

That wasn't needless to say.  It was neither clearly implied nor a logical conclusion that people could be expected to make.
I think your statement was needless to say.

Well that's a downright dangerous mind to kill someone because they're in the way of your smooth drive past traffic.  That goes beyond road rage.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

webny99

#38
Quote from: vdeane on November 01, 2022, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 08:30:17 AM
I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen the shoulder become used as a de-facto travel lane here in upstate NY, and the times I can recall have all been incident-related.
This work zone setup on the Lake Ontario State Parkway stands out to me.

And even here, the shoulder isn't being used to bypass stopped traffic in the through lanes (like it would be on the east coast, as 1995hoo alluded to).


(EDIT: removed second portion of quote now that thread has been moved.)

Ted$8roadFan

Quote from: Alps on September 22, 2022, 10:40:59 PM
Quote from: Mppheel on September 22, 2022, 08:01:32 PM
Back in 2016 I went to my aunt's funeral in NJ.  We took I-80 from Hackettstown to Bergen County and there were no shoulders in use.. it looked they needed another lane so they just made the  shoulder a lane. This was at the cut through the Watching mountains.  It was probably 5 lanes each way and the right lane was yards from rock cut.  I thought what happens when there's a wreck with zero shoulder???
You're talking a climbing lane aren't you.

Connecticut and New York have those as well. 

roadman65

New Jersey too.  However, the one on NJ 23 south of Franklin got restriped and the lane is gone. 


Also US 211 over the Blue Ridge Mountain in Virginia.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

froggie

Quote from: roadman65 on November 03, 2022, 07:41:39 AM
Also US 211 over the Blue Ridge Mountain in Virginia.

That's not a "shoulder lane" ...it's an actual full lane.

6a

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 21, 2022, 06:27:36 PM
Quote from: fillup420 on September 21, 2022, 05:54:13 PM
I would say dangerous in NC due to the number of abandoned broken down cars frequently left on the shoulders...

I think on roadways that use the shoulder as a lane, they actively will monitor and tow away a vehicle prior to the lane's opening.
Here they send a truck down the shoulder about 15 minutes before opening the lane to clear debris and broken down vehicles. They are pretty good at keeping up with the cameras as well, in case there's a problem when the lane is open.

6a

Quote from: bwana39 on September 21, 2022, 01:47:22 PM
Quote from: Georgia Guardrail on September 19, 2022, 07:48:07 PM
There seem to be quite a few of these in Atlanta.  There are some on SR 400 and I-85 north of the city.  Not sure about other major SE cities.  I find them very dangerous.  I'm surprised they are legal to be honest. 

Most drivers don't expect people to be over in the shoulder unless they are having a breakdown.  It makes people uneasy when they see someone pass them on the right shoulder when all the driver wants to do is get on the exit to the access road (as in my case Northridge Drive off of SR 400).

To me it seems a cheap and dangerous way to solve traffic issues without impacting precious NIMBYs.  I say instead of shoulder lanes, widen the freeway or build new exclusive toll lanes, or do nothing at all.  Thoughts?  I don't really see any pros.

Can you explain? Give links to streetviews, etc?
This is I-670 in Columbus Ohio
Edit: the sign on the light pole says "shoulder use permitted on green arrow only"

D-Dey65

The last time I read about it, the ones on US 19 in Pasco and Pinellas Counties were still there. I haven't been a fan since I saw it on the Long Island Expressway.


fwydriver405

#45
In Summer 2023, Interstate 95 in both Maine and New Hampshire from Exit 2/3 in Maine to Exit 5/6 in New Hampshire thru the Piscataqua River Bridge will be getting part time breakdown lane travel, as part of rehabilitation of the Piscataqua River Bridge's smart ITS system. In Maine, when breakdown lane travel is active, all Exit 1 ramps wll be closed. Believe the lanes will be dyamically enabled and use a system similar to how the NJTP did it for the Newark Bay Bridge on Interstate 78.

I'm a bit concerned this will increase accidents along the stretch, especially since the Exit 2 onramps heading southbound and the northbound bridge approach are listed as High Crash Locations by the MaineDOT. Furthermore, I'm concerned about sideswipe accidents from drivers exiting who are not aware that the breakdown lane is active, espeically at Exit 7 in NH and Exit 2 NB in Maine.

Project Info: https://www.nh.gov/dot/projects/portsmouthyork16189b/index.htm




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