New Jersey Turnpike

[bzakharin]

Just out of curiosity, do people routinely go through Richmond, Baltimore, Wilmington, NYC, Providence, etc just because I-95 is signed through them instead of going around? Why is it that I-95 through Philadelphia specifically so much of a concern?

[thenetwork]

Maybe what they should do is install a sign that says something like "Baltimore, Washington, Points South -- USE NJTP" on the turnpike when I-95 gets signed across the river into Pennsylvania.  That way, through traffic heading south is routed to avoid Philadelphia.

Just have a BGS designating the southern portion of the NJTP as "Philadelphia Bypass - Baltimore".  Now you're killing 2 birds with one stone -- encouraging people NOT to use I-95 or I-295 and to continue to spend money on the Turnpike.

[noelbotevera]

Just out of curiosity, do people routinely go through Richmond, Baltimore, Wilmington, NYC, Providence, etc just because I-95 is signed through them instead of going around? Why is it that I-95 through Philadelphia specifically so much of a concern?

You know, you're plain KILLING Philadelphia. It gets no mention on the Turnpike, or on I-95 PERIOD. Just say I-95 South to Phildelphia and N. J. Turnpike to Shore Points.

[NE2]

You know, you're plain KILLING Philadelphia. It gets no mention on the Turnpike, or on I-95 PERIOD. Just say I-95 South to Phildelphia and N. J. Turnpike to Shore Points.

Stop trying to make sense.

[Pete from Boston]

Just out of curiosity, do people routinely go through Richmond, Baltimore, Wilmington, NYC, Providence, etc just because I-95 is signed through them instead of going around? Why is it that I-95 through Philadelphia specifically so much of a concern?

You know, you're plain KILLING Philadelphia. It gets no mention on the Turnpike, or on I-95 PERIOD. Just say I-95 South to Phildelphia and N. J. Turnpike to Shore Points.

Since you didn't read through my sarcasm, Philadelphia is not withering because it is not on the best through route (in fact, despite its best efforts, it is not really withering at all).  Nor have I seen any implication in this thread that it should not be signed as a primary destination listed for 95.

And–Shore Points?  Which shore?

[Pete from Boston]

Just out of curiosity, do people routinely go through Richmond, Baltimore, Wilmington, NYC, Providence, etc just because I-95 is signed through them instead of going around? Why is it that I-95 through Philadelphia specifically so much of a concern?

People routinely go through Providence on 95.  295 is not a great bypass.  People also routinely go through New York City on 95, but I am careful about the circumstances under which I do this.  I don't know what happens in Richmond, Baltimore, or Wilmington. 

The concern with Philadelphia, if there is a concern, is that the best through route is unquestionably the New Jersey Turnpike for motorists traveling beyond Philadelphia.  Barring a major incident that shuts down the Turnpike and jams 295, the only meaningful benefit for a through traveler taking 95 through Philadelphia is as a shunpike or a scenic route ("Take a good look kids–this is the closest you'll be able to afford to Brooklyn by the time you're out of college!").

This is such a non-problem.

[SignBridge]

I think dgolub hit on a good solution in his earlier post. Southbound NJT around Exit-6, just add Baltimore-Washington to the NJT pull-through signs that I think say Wilmington (?) now. That's an easy way to transmit the message to stay on the Turnpike for the best route to those cities. End of problem.

[roadman65]

Of course we cannot get the proper interstate designations we wanted. Heck if it were not for the NIMBY's in Central Jersey we would have had the Somerset Freeway built and none of this would have never happened either.

Not really. The Turnpike is the most direct way for through traffic regardless of whether the Somerset Freeway is there or not, so the potential confusion would still exist.

I think not. I-95 would have used present day I-287 to where the current Durham Avenue Exit 4 is, then head west then southwest across Somerset and part of Northern Mercer before connecting to the existing I-95 in Ewing.  It would not be going out of the way at all, if it were built.

[Pete from Boston]

Of course we cannot get the proper interstate designations we wanted. Heck if it were not for the NIMBY's in Central Jersey we would have had the Somerset Freeway built and none of this would have never happened either.

Not really. The Turnpike is the most direct way for through traffic regardless of whether the Somerset Freeway is there or not, so the potential confusion would still exist.

I think not. I-95 would have used present day I-287 to where the current Durham Avenue Exit 4 is, then head west then southwest across Somerset and part of Northern Mercer before connecting to the existing I-95 in Ewing.  It would not be going out of the way at all, if it were built.

Nope.  95 is less direct.  Much more zig-zaggy, and through more congested areas.  Look at the two on a map and ask yourself which wastes more mileage curving east and west.  The shortest distance between two points is...

[ekt8750]

I think the forest is being missed for the trees here. Isn't the whole point of the even numbered 3di to provide a bypass of a city while the parent route serves said city directly (leaving Washington DC out of it)? If so then the system is fine the way it is. Some revised signage with better control cities will help but there's no need to go changing route numbers and the like. 95 should serve Philadelphia directly. Anyone coming from the north wishing to bypass Philly can easily stay on the Turnpike or hop on 295 at Trenton and same with those coming from the south heading to points beyond Trenton.

I think Delaware has the right idea with how it signs the big New Castle interchange on 95 heading north. 95 is signed as the local route to Wilmington, then 295 is signed as the route to NJ, and NYC and finally 495 is signed for Philadelphia. It's pretty hard to screw things up with that (although stupid people always put a wrench in things).

[jeffandnicole]

I think the point that is being missed is that the NJ Turnpike opened up 60 years ago. The level of confusion can be summed up in 3 general questions:

I can tell you, working Exit 1, exactly what people asked about (especially on the Southbound side):

A) Where is I-95; or how many miles to I-95?
B) How far is it to the Delaware Memorial Bridge, Maryland House, Baltimore, and Washington DC (3 Miles, 50 miles, 70 miles, 110 miles).  For some reason, no one ever asked about the Delaware Service Plaza or the Chesapeake Plaza.
C) How far is it to Philadelphia (You passed it a half-hour ago).  Wha?????

Driving South, I don't agree with the Wilmington being a control city.  I think Baltimore would've been a better choice. You don't need Washington DC, because even Delaware and Maryland doesn't sign DC until after Baltimore.  But regardless, you don't need more than 1 control city.

Even if they're not going to Philadelphia, many drivers expect to see Philadelphia along the way from New York to Baltimore.

And the most important thing, related to many of you: No one ever asked what the route number of the NJ Turnpike was.  Some assume it's I-95, especially going south.  But if it was 495, 695, 795, 700, 273, 891, 4 or pi, no one cared.

[roadman65]

The bottom line is no matter how good you sign a road, a non road geek will mess things up.  Heck no one still comprehends the yellow EXIT ONLY with lane control arrow sign and will never have. I wish I had a penny for how many people are in surprise that their lane exits and make that last minute switch I would be as rich as Bill Gates.

Wilmington replaces the Delaware Memorial Bridge which used to be signed for decades as that was the gateway to the Delmarva from New Jersey.  It was well known as many either went south from NJ either via I-95 or US 13 or US 301 from there.  That is why it is used most likely.

[jeffandnicole]

The bottom line is no matter how good you sign a road, a non road geek will mess things up.  Heck no one still comprehends the yellow EXIT ONLY with lane control arrow sign and will never have. I wish I had a penny for how many people are in surprise that their lane exits and make that last minute switch I would be as rich as Bill Gates.

Wilmington replaces the Delaware Memorial Bridge which used to be signed for decades as that was the gateway to the Delmarva from New Jersey.  It was well known as many either went south from NJ either via I-95 or US 13 or US 301 from there.  That is why it is used most likely.

The NJ Turnpike never signed a control anything going south until they started using Wilmington.  NJDOT still uses Delaware and/or Del Mem Br.  They recently added a BGS around Exit 2C, with Memorial written out!

'Left Exit' also fools motorists...and I'll see many leave the left lane and merge right for no reason, as the left lane continues beyond the exit!

[1995hoo]

Regarding the question about what people do in Richmond and Baltimore as to 3di versus I-95:

I believe in Baltimore most of the long-distance I-95 traffic usually stays on I-95, which is signed as the thru route via the Fort McHenry Tunnel. Before that tunnel opened a reasonable amount of traffic used to use I-695 over the bridge to bypass the Harbor Tunnel, but there's a lot less need for that now unless you're carrying prohibited items like bottled gas or perhaps unless there's a big football game.

In Richmond, I'm guessing over the years a much higher percentage of traffic has stayed on I-95 than the Powers That Be would like, given those diagrammatic signs on southbound I-95 approaching I-295 that show 295 bypassing Richmond and rejoining I-95. I presume they either believed or determined that people didn't know where I-295 went. It's certainly a longer distance, but it also has a higher speed limit and less traffic. Those signs have always come across in my mind as a bit of a marketing effort.

[Pete from Boston]

The bottom line is no matter how good you sign a road, a non road geek will mess things up.

I think what you meant to say was, no matter how much people really aren't messing things up, a road geek will find a way to invent a problem so they can invent a solution for it.

It's ludicrous to assert that most people aren't getting this drive right every single day.

I can tell you, working Exit 1, exactly what people asked about (especially on the Southbound side):

Enough said. You win the discussion.

[jeffandnicole]

The bottom line is no matter how good you sign a road, a non road geek will mess things up.

I think what you meant to say was, no matter how much people really aren't messing things up, a road geek will find a way to invent a problem so they can invent a solution for it.

No, you win!

I can tell you, working Exit 1, exactly what people asked about (especially on the Southbound side):

Enough said. You win the discussion.

I mean, OK, there's always going to be the one-off oddball questions people ask (What state am I in, How do I get to Texas from here, etc).  And there's always memorable questions that are headscratchers...like the trucker complaining about the tolls.  I told him, just take 295 next time.  His response...they charge tolls on 295 as well! 

[1995hoo]

I mean, OK, there's always going to be the one-off oddball questions people ask (What state am I in, How do I get to Texas from here, etc).  And there's always memorable questions that are headscratchers...like the trucker complaining about the tolls.  I told him, just take 295 next time.  His response...they charge tolls on 295 as well! 

When I was a kid and I-295 ended at US-130, my father connected between 295 and the Turnpike by going up to I-195 (he didn't know about the Exit 7 route yet). My mother used to complain because the drive took longer "because there are stoplights on 295."

People just get weird ideas in their heads.

[bzakharin]

There *is* a toll on I-295. It's called the Delaware Memorial Bridge
P.S. NJTA employees are allowed to talk about 295?

[cpzilliacus]

O.K., my turn to beat the dead horse (not to be confused with Deadhorse, Alaska).

Just because I dislike freeways that do not have a route number (IMO a legacy of the days of U.S. turnpike development prior to 1956), the New Jersey Turnpike from Exit 1 to Exit 6 should have a route number posted for the public to see. 

My own preference is I-895 with "control cities" of Delaware and Baltimore on pull-through signs or maybe Philadelphia Bypass (though I suspect the City of Brotherly Love would not be so loving of that), so southbound drivers approaching Exit 6 know that it is safe to continue south on the Turnpike and eventually end up back on I-95.  If New Jersey DOT and FHWA do not want to assign it I-895, then it should be signed "N.J. 700 to I-95" southbound (and northbound).

[jeffandnicole]

There *is* a toll on I-295. It's called the Delaware Memorial Bridge
P.S. NJTA employees are allowed to talk about 295?

Well, they're going to hit that regardless.  And he was talking specifically in NJ.  But that bridge toll is probably what someone told him, but he probably misinterpreted it and thought there was a toll in NJ.  He probably wasn't too happy when he hit that "295 toll" anyway!!!

And yeah, we could definitely talk about it (well, they didn't tell us *not* to talk about it!).  If someone were to complain about the tolls, I would freely say "You can take 295 next time".  They had no clue where 295 was...even though they would've passed it in full view just a half-hour earlier, and they'll be merging into it in less than 2 miles anyway.   It's on every single map, so it's not like it's one of NJ's hidden treasures!

[roadman65]

How about a sign like this approaching Exit 6 SB.

[jeffandnicole]

How about a sign like this approaching Exit 6 SB.

Because it's not specific.  Thru to what?  Philadelphia? Baltimore?  Miami?

[dgolub]

And–Shore Points?  Which shore?

That's used at exit 7A for I-195 and on US 1/US 9 at the point where they split.  So it's not anything that it's already in use.

[roadman65]

How about a sign like this approaching Exit 6 SB.

Because it's not specific.  Thru to what?  Philadelphia? Baltimore?  Miami?

Neither is this sign, but its obvious to motorists traveling I-81 N Bound.  I think motorists would make the conclusion when seeing I-95 exit and the turnpike continuing that it is for the immediate area after I-95 exits.

[ixnay]

Why am I thinking that "Control City" sounds like the setting for some comic book superhero property?

ixnay