New Jersey Turnpike

[SignBridge]

Great stories Roadman, and J&N. As one who comes from a family of competent driver/travelers, the stories you're telling are absolutely amazing. Hard to believe so many people could be so "up in the clouds".

BTW J&N, what year was the new Interchange-1 completed and were the express e-z pass lanes completed at the same time or later on?

[cpzilliacus]

There was a fair amount of confusion of people going south, thinking they were still on 95.  That is understandable...even if they haven't seen a I-95 sign for many miles (there were a few in the median saying 'To 95', but they were extremely rare).  And if they were heading to Delaware and points south, it wasn't really a big deal.  But if were going to, say, Philadelphia, they were a bit upset when I told them they passed it a half-hour ago!  (Interchanges 4 & 3 were signed for Philly at the time, but they figured they were on 95 and would simply run directly into the city.)

The NJTA and NJDOT really ought to make application to AASHTO and FHWA to sign the Turnpike as I-895 from Exit 1 to Exit 6 in the near future when the Bristol, Pennsylvania project is completed enough (and the Turnpike Bridge over the Delaware River is open to traffic again). I suspect it would be quickly approved, for the southern Turnpike, like the rest of it, would appear to comply with Interstate design standards.

[jeffandnicole]

Great stories Roadman, and J&N. As one who comes from a family of competent driver/travelers, the stories you're telling are absolutely amazing. Hard to believe so many people could be so "up in the clouds".

BTW J&N, what year was the new Interchange-1 completed and were the express e-z pass lanes completed at the same time or later on?

I believe the interchange opened in late 2004 or early 2005.  While the very first designs didn't include express lanes, the design was updated before any construction to include the express lanes, so they opened at the same time as the rest of the plaza.

Here's a website I found regarding the construction.  If you scroll thru the pictures, you'll see traffic going thru what would be the express lanes while the rest of the plaza was still under construction.  The old plaza was still open (which probably caused the traffic congestion seen in one photo).  http://www.louisberger.com/our-work/project/new-jersey-turnpike-interchange-1-toll-plaza-relocation-new-jersey-us

[SignBridge]

Excellent J&N. Thank you!

[roadman65]

People are already disoriented so adding the GPS to the equation adds insult to injury.  Plus the new school teachings do not teach people the history of the roads like they used to and of course each state teaches different stuff too. 

It took me a long time to get this, as when I was being taught I was always told that ignorance is no excuse for mistakes, that you learn and it makes you fearful of authority and who us humans really are.  Now I dismiss all these complaints I hear and just do what I have to.  I accept that people are this way and do not find it unbelievable and am seeing its normal and most of all that nobody fears making a mistake anymore is more a norm we as a society must accept.

[SignBridge]

Cpzilliacus, re: your suggestion to sign the south end of the NJT as I-895, I wonder if that might actually cause more confusion by adding another route number to the mix. I think "NJ Turnpike" with its logo that's been around for so many years is probably better recognized, though you wouldn't think so from reading J&N's stories. LOL

[cpzilliacus]

Cpzilliacus, re: your suggestion to sign the south end of the NJT as I-895, I wonder if that might actually cause more confusion by adding another route number to the mix. I think "NJ Turnpike" with its logo that's been around for so many years is probably better recognized, though you wouldn't think so from reading J&N's stories. LOL

IMO, un-numbered (but named) freeways like the New Jersey Turnpike (and  years, ago, many other legacy toll roads, including (but not limited to) the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel Thruway)  are a thing of the past.  I could be persuaded that parkways should not always be numbered, since they mostly serve a different role in the transportation system, and many exclude commercial vehicles.

Some have suggested (and it makes sense to me) that the entire New Jersey Turnpike should be I-95, but that's not likely to happen.  I-895 is the most-logical number for the southern Turnpike, so drivers have an idea that they will eventually return to I-95 if they stay on the Turnpike (though I concede that even with the bridge over the Delaware River open, I-276 eastbound does not return to I-76).  It's also a form of advertising, to tell people (that do not frequent this forum) that it will be O.K. to stay on the Turnpike even when I-95 leaves the Turnpike at Exit 6 southbound. I-895 looks a lot better than the alternative, NJ-700, since it means something even to non-roadgeeks. Same for northbound movements from Delaware, though it will involve adding another Interstate shield on the signs approaching I-95's exit for I-295 on the northbound side as well as changes to the signs on the Turnpike approaching the Turnpike/U.S. 40 "split" after crossing the Delaware Memorial Bridge.

[roadman65]

I once remember years ago, I got into an argument with someone over I-95 and the NJT.  They kept insisting that it was the whole length, but of course its not.  Also back before the contraversal (so what I spell it incorrectly, I am not going to websters to find the correct spelling of a word for this message) five of Union County for I-78, I argued with a trucker about the section of I-78 from I-287 and Drift Road in Watchung, as he kept calling Exit 29 the eastern terminus of I-78 when in fact it was not except maybe in the 1960's considering the Newark Bay Extension was orphaned from the rest and not signed back then.

Bottom line is you cannot please everyone and as far as numbers go still people in NYC and NYS use names over number hence I-87 never called by it but by its three freeway names along its entire route.  So living in NJ I can tell you its always going to be the Turnpike, The Parkway, etc.  Heck it took years to get used to Route 495 (if people ever did) for the defunct NJ 3 east of US 1 & 9 or even NJ 139 to be called it as for years it was always "One and nine" all the way into the Holland Tunnel.

Adding a route number to the NJ Turnpike would not confuse anyone nor would it change anything.  The GPS might as it sends people on any road which the average person now does not even orient themselves with the signs and surroundings.  As long as they don't hit the guys around them and being we live to speed most of us just want to accelerate as fast as we can and get around the other motorists who just does not accelerate to our liking.  I believe that may be why society (or at least the ones who pay the tolls, as there still could be conscious drivers out there, but I am not aware of them at the toll booths because they are smart enough to avoid it) is so ignorant of road signs including speed limit signs.  We can be thankful that DO NOT ENTER signs are red as that does reach a certain area of our brain to wake it up and create awareness.

[1995hoo]

I once remember years ago, I got into an argument with someone over I-95 and the NJT.  They kept insisting that it was the whole length, but of course its not. ....

I'm not surprised at all. I know quite a few people who believe that. I have no idea how that is when the signs in Delaware very plainly direct I-95 traffic away from the bridge to New Jersey, but it's not worth arguing with those types of people about it.

[jeffandnicole]

Most people I encountered that were confused were those going Southbound. At some point, they should've signed Exit 7A, 195 between the Turnpike and 95, and 295 between 195 and US 1 as Temp 95.

[cpzilliacus]

Most people I encountered that were confused were those going Southbound. At some point, they should've signed Exit 7A, 195 between the Turnpike and 95, and 295 between 195 and US 1 as Temp 95.

Would have made sense, though NJTA and NJDOT would have had to replace them several times, given the snail-like pace of the Bristol, Pennsylvania interchange project.  Now that the end may be in sight for the discontiguous sections of I-95, I suppose we can just wait for PTC to get enough of it done to complete I-95.

[1995hoo]

Most people I encountered that were confused were those going Southbound. At some point, they should've signed Exit 7A, 195 between the Turnpike and 95, and 295 between 195 and US 1 as Temp 95.

The people with whom I've had that discussion would have travelled it both ways. Hence my comment about the Delaware signs.

[SignBridge]

Cpz, let's just hope the bridge gets reopened before the 95/276 interchange ramps are finished. LOL

[roadman65]

Are the signs being replaced along the Newark Bay Extension yet, or is that going to be done much later like the 1 to 9 section?

Just had to ask.

[cpzilliacus]

Cpz, let's just hope the bridge gets reopened before the 95/276 interchange ramps are finished. LOL

I agree.  And let's hope that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission does not use the bridge closure over the Delaware as an excuse to slow the Bristol project down.

[jeffandnicole]

Cpz, let's just hope the bridge gets reopened before the 95/276 interchange ramps are finished. LOL

I agree.  And let's hope that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission does not use the bridge closure over the Delaware as an excuse to slow the Bristol project down.

Well, there's:  Light Speed, Very Fast, Fast, Average, Slow, Very slow, boringly slow, and PTC slow.  How much slower can they get??

[PHLBOS]

Cpz, let's just hope the bridge gets reopened before the 95/276 interchange ramps are finished. LOL

I agree.  And let's hope that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission does not use the bridge closure over the Delaware as an excuse to slow the Bristol project down.

Well, there's:  Light Speed, Very Fast, Fast, Average, Slow, Very slow, boringly slow, and PTC slow.  How much slower can they get??

One thing to keep in mind is that while that bridge is closed; the now-one-year-old westbound AET gantry on the PA side is collecting zero dollars in terms of revenue for PTC.  This closure financially hurts them more than the NJ Turnpike Authority.

[vdeane]

I agree.  And let's hope that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission does not use the bridge closure over the Delaware as an excuse to slow the Bristol project down.

I read an article recently (probably linked from either this forum or Facebook) that gave a completion date of 2021; could have sworn the ramps were due to be done sooner, so they might have already been delayed (let's hope they were just including "phase II" with the rest of the interchange).

One thing to keep in mind is that while that bridge is closed; the now-one-year-old westbound AET gantry on the PA side is collecting zero dollars in terms of revenue for PTC.  This closure financially hurts them more than the NJ Turnpike Authority.

The NJ Turnpike also collects tolls from all drivers crossing that bridge WB and a large chunk EB; they're also missing out on WB tolls to US 130.

[jeffandnicole]

I agree.  And let's hope that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission does not use the bridge closure over the Delaware as an excuse to slow the Bristol project down.

I read an article recently (probably linked from either this forum or Facebook) that gave a completion date of 2021; could have sworn the ramps were due to be done sooner, so they might have already been delayed (let's hope they were just including "phase II" with the rest of the interchange).

That does include other phases.  The 2 direct ramps they are building are still due to be complete late 2018. 

[PHLBOS]

Bold emphasis added to the below-quote:

One thing to keep in mind is that while that bridge is closed; the now-one-year-old westbound AET gantry on the PA side is collecting zero dollars in terms of revenue for PTC.  This closure financially hurts them more than the NJ Turnpike Authority.

The NJ Turnpike also collects tolls from all drivers crossing that bridge WB and a large chunk EB; they're also missing out on WB tolls to US 130.

I never said that the NJ Turnpike Authority was immune from taking a financial hit over the closure; just it was taking less of a hit.

A few additional items to consider:

1.  The one-way westbound AET toll gantry charges a much higher toll rate ($5 E-ZPass/$6.50 toll-by-plate) than what was charged at the westbound entry-point from US 130 ($2 off-peak NJ E-ZPass/$3 all others) and has only been in place for just over a year.  This AET gantry acts as a separate (westbound) toll for crossing the bridge.

Prior to 2016, this location was the end of the PA Turnpike's ticketed toll system and had a full-blown toll plaza spanning both directions.

2.  Those that were exiting off the NJ Turnpike at Exit 6 are still using the NJ Turnpike but are just exiting off at another interchange; whether prior to or beyond Exit 6 is dependent upon their final destination and traffic conditions.

3.  Those coming from PA, but not exiting off for US 130 were only either picking up a toll ticket or going through E-ZPass for Point-of-Entry purposes only.  Depending on their destination & traffic conditions; they will still use the NJ Turnpike but just at different entry points.

[jeffandnicole]

ADT of the bridge is 42,000.  That's 21,000 vehicles each way.  We can figure the EB direction may be slightly heavier, but we're going for simplicity here.

Tolls for the PA Turnpike AET is $5/$6.75 (EZ Pass/Cash) for Cars, $20/$27 for the typical 5 Axle Truck, with other amounts depending on axles.  For kicks, let's just say the average toll collected amongst all vehicles is $10.  That would mean the PA Turnpike is losing $210,000 each day; or about $1.5 million per week, at this toll alone.

The NJ Turnpike's toll isn't as straight forward...let's just say on average, motorists pay $3.00 additional for using Exit 6.  Since the NJ Turnpike collects tolls both ways, that's not 21,000 vehicles like the PA Turnpike, but nearly the entire 42,000 daily volume.  However, traffic can still enter from 130 going towards the mainline turnpike, so that's a few thousand vehicles that can still use the EB toll plaza.  All-in-all, let's say they're losing $120,000 a day; maybe $1 million a week or so.

If motorists coming from NY are using I-78 to the PA Turnpike, or even coming south and exiting at 7A and picking up the PA Turnpike further west, that's an additional financial burden to the Turnpikes, as they miss out on the revenue for all those additional miles vehicles are taking.

However, let's look at the weather out there...we don't get too many 70 degree days in February in this part of the country (it's not uncommon never to hit 60 for the entire month of February, much less 70).  Nicer days tends to increase traffic, so now that hit is lessoned slightly because people are out driving, enjoying the nice weather.

Follow any of this?  Still with me? 

Yeah...that's what the Turnpikes are all trying to figure out...a whole shitload of what-ifs and maybes.  More or less, the PA Turnpike is probably losing about 50% more money compared to the NJ Turnpike for what they would've collected for this interchange. 

That all said, the NJ Turnpike collected over $1.1 Billion in tolls last fiscal year...about $100 million per month.  Taking a $4 million hit isn't horrendous to their financial future.  But that hit, combined with the repair cost is more significant, now at about $12 million (to be split equally with the PA Turnpike authority).  If they need to fund an entirely new bridge...now we're talking serious dollars.

Today's news story...http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2017/02/turnpike_authority_spends_3_more_to_fix_closed_del.html

[cpzilliacus]

Well, there's:  Light Speed, Very Fast, Fast, Average, Slow, Very slow, boringly slow, and PTC slow.  How much slower can they get??

There's also STOP, something that PTC and PennDOT are pretty good at. 

The Bristol interchange project has had plenty of STOP (recall that Congress enacted by statute (and the President signed) provisions re-routing I-95 away from the northern part of the Delaware Expressway (between the Turnpike underpass and the Scudders Falls Bridge)  and onto the eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike East-West Mainline, then  the "Pennsylvania" extension of the New Jersey Turnpike and then the N.J. Turnpike itself north of Exit 6 in 1982 as part of the Surface Transportation Assistance Act.

It took PennDOT and PTC 10 more years just to start a study of the project.

[vdeane]

Bold emphasis added to the below-quote:

One thing to keep in mind is that while that bridge is closed; the now-one-year-old westbound AET gantry on the PA side is collecting zero dollars in terms of revenue for PTC.  This closure financially hurts them more than the NJ Turnpike Authority.

The NJ Turnpike also collects tolls from all drivers crossing that bridge WB and a large chunk EB; they're also missing out on WB tolls to US 130.

I never said that the NJ Turnpike Authority was immune from taking a financial hit over the closure; just it was taking less of a hit.

A few additional items to consider:

1.  The one-way westbound AET toll gantry charges a much higher toll rate ($5 E-ZPass/$6.50 toll-by-plate) than what was charged at the westbound entry-point from US 130 ($2 off-peak NJ E-ZPass/$3 all others) and has only been in place for just over a year.  This AET gantry acts as a separate (westbound) toll for crossing the bridge.

Prior to 2016, this location was the end of the PA Turnpike's ticketed toll system and had a full-blown toll plaza spanning both directions.

2.  Those that were exiting off the NJ Turnpike at Exit 6 are still using the NJ Turnpike but are just exiting off at another interchange; whether prior to or beyond Exit 6 is dependent upon their final destination and traffic conditions.

3.  Those coming from PA, but not exiting off for US 130 were only either picking up a toll ticket or going through E-ZPass for Point-of-Entry purposes only.  Depending on their destination & traffic conditions; they will still use the NJ Turnpike but just at different entry points.

I fail to see how the age of the gantry affects how much revenue it would ordinarily collect.  And even shorter trips on the Turnpike are reduced revenue.  I don't think anyone there would have longer trips.  If you're getting off at exit 6, you're probably coming from the north to Philly's northern suburbs, so diverting to Trenton is the most logical choice.  If you're coming from the south, you're probably local, and therefore not getting on the Turnpike at all when you divert (especially with I-295, which doesn't have an interchange with the Turnpike Extension).  If you're from further south, you would have never taken the Turnpike here in the first place.  And I'm sure the tolls for traffic using exit 6 include a surcharge for the bridge built-in, just like the Thruway does for all traffic crossing the Castleton-on-Hudson Bridge.  The PTC rate may be higher, but remember, it's covering one way what used to be collected both ways.  I'm sure once that is compensated for, the differences aren't as large.  Traffic diverting on the PTC is probably diverting no further than US 1.

Of course, the toll rates on the PTC are obscenely high, so that could be a factor, but not one that was mentioned.

[SignBridge]

Cpz, and everybody: just as a fantasy, wouldn't that be some kick-in-the-"head" though, if the 95/276 ramps actually were completed before the bridge reopened, or worse yet if it has to be replaced. Wouldn't that be the ultimate highway irony, considering how many years (40 in my case) we have waited for that interchange to be built?

[Alps]

Cpz, and everybody: just as a fantasy, wouldn't that be some kick-in-the-"head" though, if the 95/276 ramps actually were completed before the bridge reopened, or worse yet if it has to be replaced. Wouldn't that be the ultimate highway irony, considering how many years (40 in my case) we have waited for that interchange to be built?

I know you said just as a fantasy, but the most recent news indicates that they're getting the bridge in position for a permanent fix, which suggests it will be reopening this year, and I don't mean December.