Deposits on soda pop bottles

[MNHighwayMan]

One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash. On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund.

Then don't complain.

I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away.

Why?

Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?

Because you didn't pay the Michigan deposit for those particular containers? How hard is that to understand?

There have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.

Care to explain why? Seems hypocritical considering the rest of your post.

[thenetwork]

One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash.

On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund. I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away. Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?

There have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.

As concerns the old-style glass bottles, Ale-8 is still produced in those bottles. There are four containers for Ale-8 -- 12-ounce returnable glass bottles, 12-ounce non-returnable glass bottles, 20-ounce non-returnable plastic bottles, and 12-ounce cans. There are people who claim to this day that the beverage in the returnable bottles tastes better than that in the non-returnable bottles. (And cans -- even before Ale-8 went to the other type bottles besides returnable glass, it always tasted different in the cans.) Grocers who sell the returnable bottles require those to be presented to the cashier upon entry to the store for credit or cash.

When I was young, and the returnable bottles ruled the market, we would save or pick up the bottles until we had enough to make it profitable to sell them back to the grocery store. I can remember buying Pepsi products in those bottles up until the mid-1980s.

I believe that Michigan was one of the last states to switch to all-plastic pop bottles, since they had the 10 cent deposit and thus the bottlers likely saved more in the long run to just reuse the glass bottles.  When I lived in Toledo, OH everything was plastic there by 1990, but whenever I went over the border into Michigan, I would make an effort to stop and get Coca-Cola in a glass bottle or two, since it tasted better in glass than in the plastic. 

Never bothered to go back and get my deposit back in most cases, either.  The better flavor was worth the extra dime!!!

[oscar]

One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash.

On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund. I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away. Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?

It is a bit of a puzzle why MI deposit info is stamped into the can lid, when there is no corresponding MI deposit UPC code to make sure Walmart's/Meijer's/etc. redemption machines will accept it.

Could you have bought your beverages at a Walmart in Indiana or Ohio, with no deposit? When out West this summer, I made a point of stocking up on beverages when outside California and Oregon when possible (helped that there's no deposits in all the neighboring states, so I could often restock there mid-trip). When I had to pay Oregon's especially high deposit, and knowing that its redemption machines are good at rejecting out-of-state cans, I made sure to buy only what I needed and could consume while in Oregon, and to redeem as many of the Oregon-purchased cans as possible before I left the state for good.

[empirestate]

It's a measure of very good effectiveness.  One only need compare the roadsides in Illinois (no deposit law) and Michigan (10 cent deposit law).  Illinois roadside are filled with cans and bottles while Michigan one are much, much cleaner.  I dearly wish we had such a deposit law here in Illinois. 

Not such a good indicator, actually. In New York, we do have a deposit law...but look at the roadsides in NYC. At least part of that is because, as mentioned elsewhere, professional bottle scroungers tear open the plastic garbage bags at the curbside (because NYC declines to use rigid containers), pick out what they can easily redeem, and leave the rest behind for the snowplow to spread everywhere after it has gotten frozen into the snowbank.

And of course, the reason there are bottles and cans in those bags for them to find is because few ordinary people actually redeem theirs at all. Many people aren't even aware of the law, while others have found it too much of a hassle to argue with their local grocer every time they want their nickel back. And that's because few local grocers or shop owners participate willingly or fully in the redemption program.

The biggest problem you find is that shop owners believe that if they don't have a redemption machine (or if theirs is out of service), they aren't required to refund your money. That's false: they're required to return your nickel for every redeemable item* they carry, even if purchased elsewhere. Whether the store owner automates the process or has to do it manually is not the customers' concern; they are entitled to their money, regardless.

*In specific brand/size/packaging combinations, that is. So, if they sell Coke only in 16oz plastic bottles, they must redeem any such bottle brought in. But they would not have to redeem 16oz glass bottles, 1-liter bottles, or cans of Coke.

[hbelkins]

I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away.

Why?

Two reasons, really. One is that it's a pain to try to keep everything separate, and it's easier just to throw everything in one trash container. I have to pay the same to have my trash disposed of whether I throw away no bags a week or 10 bags a week. I did used to save aluminum cans to sell, but the revenue wasn't worth the hassle.

The second reason (let the flames begin) is more of a political statement than anything else. Recycling gets shoved down our throats and throwing plastic bottles -- and cans and paper, as well -- -away is my little way of rebelling.

Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?

Because you didn't pay the Michigan deposit for those particular containers? How hard is that to understand?

Why is the origin of the particular containers of any importance? If I take 18 containers out of the state of Michigan and return with 18 containers from elsewhere, there is no worthwhile difference. It's the same quantity of empty bottles, and all bottles have the Michigan deposit information included. The labeling and shape of the bottle is different, that's all.

There have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.

Care to explain why? Seems hypocritical considering the rest of your post.

Why's that? I stated that I don't like bottle deposit laws. They're inconvenient, and they reek of social engineering. The same politicians that talk about passing such laws here also talk about putting a special tax on fast food because some people throw the wrappers out their car windows. Don't get me started on a society that treats littering as more of a crime than drug dealing, theft, assault and a number of other offenses.

Could you have bought your beverages at a Walmart in Indiana or Ohio, with no deposit? When out West this summer, I made a point of stocking up on beverages when outside California and Oregon when possible (helped that there's no deposits in all the neighboring states, so I could often restock there mid-trip). When I had to pay Oregon's especially high deposit, and knowing that its redemption machines are good at rejecting out-of-state cans, I made sure to buy only what I needed and could consume while in Oregon, and to redeem as many of the Oregon-purchased cans as possible before I left the state for good.

No, and I looked. I spent the night prior to my Michigan foray in South Bend. I hit both the Walmart and Meijer stores there, and no Diet Vernors to be found -- no Vernors at all, except for two-liters of the sugary stuff at Meijer.  I don't even think they had any at a Kroger in Elkhart -- I get 12-pack cans of Diet Vernors at Kroger in Winchester or Frankfort here -- but the Indiana Kroger had Ale-8.

It should also be noted that the nearest Kroger to me (Stanton) carries regular and diet Cheerwine in 12-pack cans, although at an inflated price. Which made me happy to find it 4 for $10 at a North Carolina Kroger when I was in that state a few weeks ago.

I prefer plastic resealable bottles to cans for just about all soft drinks, which is why I was happy to find the bottles at the Walmart, and was also happy that my Michigan cousin (the chief engineer for the Lake Michigan ferry) brought four six-packs of Diet Vernors in the bottles when he came down for the annual Memorial Day service at the cemetery where our grandparents are buried.

[Duke87]

One is that it's a pain to try to keep everything separate, and it's easier just to throw everything in one trash container.

Suppose it's a question of what you're used to. I've been putting paper, metal/plastic/glass with deposits, metal/plastic/glass without deposits, and everything else in separate containers my entire life. It does not seem to be a pain or in any way burdensome to me - it's just the normal way things are done.

Of course, I also find sorting things to be satisfying in an OCD sort of way. If you gave me 37 cans and asked me to separate waste into 37 different categories I would probably do it willingly.

Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?

Because you didn't pay the Michigan deposit for those particular containers? How hard is that to understand?

Why is the origin of the particular containers of any importance? If I take 18 containers out of the state of Michigan and return with 18 containers from elsewhere, there is no worthwhile difference. It's the same quantity of empty bottles, and all bottles have the Michigan deposit information included. The labeling and shape of the bottle is different, that's all.

Making this sort of fair trade is perfectly in line with the spirit of the law. The folks who wrote the law likely did not consider this particular scenario, since it is unusual, an added complication, and unlikely to ever actually matter in practice. No one in a position of enforcing the law is going to notice or care that you're returning 18 bottles from out of state.

[jeffandnicole]

When I'm at someone else's house I usually ask if they have a recycling container. At a relative's house in Ohio last year I asked that question. She said their recycling system is truly single stream: Everything gets thrown away as garbage. It's then all sent to a center that picks out the recyclables and separates them from the actual garbage! (I think I believe that...although I've never heard of it elsewhere!)

[vdeane]

Why is the origin of the particular containers of any importance? If I take 18 containers out of the state of Michigan and return with 18 containers from elsewhere, there is no worthwhile difference. It's the same quantity of empty bottles, and all bottles have the Michigan deposit information included. The labeling and shape of the bottle is different, that's all.

While in that case there is no worthwhile difference, repealing the ban on returning out of state bottles wouldn't just allow that to happen - it would allow people to stock up on bottles and redeem them at Michigan's rate, even if they never purchased any bottles there in their entire life.  I imagine that's why the ban is there in the first place.  The states with 5 cent deposits don't have this issue because there is no incentive to return the bottle in a specific state, so if someone's returning an out of state bottle, it's because they're traveling and just happen to be there when they return the bottle, and it likely evens out in the end.  Since Michigan has a 10 cent deposit, people would have an incentive to bring large quantities of bottles in to the state to be redeemed, with themselves (and the states the bottles were purchased from) 5 cents profit for each one.

When I'm at someone else's house I usually ask if they have a recycling container. At a relative's house in Ohio last year I asked that question. She said their recycling system is truly single stream: Everything gets thrown away as garbage. It's then all sent to a center that picks out the recyclables and separates them from the actual garbage! (I think I believe that...although I've never heard of it elsewhere!)

That's interesting.  I've had single stream among the recyclables since I turned 18, but I've never heard of single stream involving garbage as well.

[thenetwork]

https://youtu.be/x1blsZxXDCU

[jp the roadgeek]

CT has a bottle bill that applies to all carbonated beverages (including beer), as well as on bottled water. However, not all size bottles of water are included.  A 16.9 oz. bottle has a deposit on it, but the 3 liter jugs or gallons of water do not have deposits.  Because MA does not have a deposit on water, companies like Poland Spring have to print special labels for MA that say NO DEPOSIT and have a red outline around the barcode so that redemption machines can differentiate it from bottles that are returnable (even noticed a MA bottle during Dave Dombrowski's press conference).  Every supermarket has a dedicated bottle redemption area with anywhere from 3-12 machines for plastic, aluminum, and glass.  Some stores are really sticky about which brands they will accept.  Most are reciprocal (i.e. you can cash in a Walmart or ShopRite brand bottle at Stop & Shop and vice versa), but some stores won't take a brand that they don't sell, so many off brand microbrew beer bottles are a pain in the neck to return unless you bring it back to the liquor store in a 6-pack.  It is illegal in CT to return bottles not marked for redemption, but most bottling  plants for Coca-Cola and PepsiCo have different bar coding, so their bar codes are not often programmed in the machine (however, since the statute of limitations would be up, I was able to cash in some cans from MD in CT despite there being no bottle deposit in MD).  There are a couple of distributors (using old Pop Shop bottles) that charge a 10 cent deposit and a 60 cent deposit on the case, and can only be returned at the point of purchase or to someone who sells them.  There was recently a bill in the legislature to raise the bill to 10 cents, expand it to include juices, or to eliminate the deposit and just include a tax.  The last option was not very popular.  Fortunately, CT has not yet gone the way of Chicago and included a sugary beverage tax.

[briantroutman]

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring up the Seinfeld episode.

[Duke87]

That's interesting.  I've had single stream among the recyclables since I turned 18, but I've never heard of single stream involving garbage as well.

I haven't heard of it for household waste, although the MTA does this in the subway. They've been doing it since the 70s, in fact, but never advertised it until about a decade ago when someone noticed the lack of recycling bins in the subway and raised a stink about "hey, why isn't the MTA recycling". And then they pointed out "actually, we are".

[US71]

Fort Smith went for almost 2 years collecting recycling, but throwing in the landfill with the trash.  Some story about losing the contract with their recycle company.

[hbelkins]

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring up the Seinfeld episode.

That presumes that everyone here watches, or watched, Seinfeld. I never cared for it. It was totally non-interesting to me.

[US71]

That presumes that everyone here watches, or watched, Seinfeld. I never cared for it. It was totally non-interesting to me.

There's hope for you yet

[Scott5114]

I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away.

Why?

Two reasons, really. One is that it's a pain to try to keep everything separate, and it's easier just to throw everything in one trash container.

Modern single-stream recycling processes allow you to toss everything in one bin. All recyclables go in the blue bin, everything else in the green one.

The second reason (let the flames begin) is more of a political statement than anything else. Recycling gets shoved down our throats and throwing plastic bottles -- and cans and paper, as well -- -away is my little way of rebelling.

I would imagine that you react similarly when told the benefits of exercise, or of running anti-virus software, or brushing your teeth, or not smoking.

[SP Cook]

Recycling really is just window dressing.  In my area the wacko mayor finally had to admit that they were just burying the "recyclables" in the dump with everything else, but said "well, we know where they are and someday....". 

If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it.  No deposit required.

[kalvado]

Recycling really is just window dressing.  In my area the wacko mayor finally had to admit that they were just burying the "recyclables" in the dump with everything else, but said "well, we know where they are and someday....". 

If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it.  No deposit required.

Aluminum does have value (3 cents a can or so), but extracting that requires collection system which may cost more than it worth.
Another aspect of recycling certain things - and people seem to overlook that, although they do pay for that in a long run - is landfill capacity. Even with all compacting used, empty containers will take a lot of volume; that reduces landfill capacity, lifespan, and eventually shows up as a cost for residents via having to designate and establish new landfill - probably further away from the city. Maybe not a big thing for sparsely populated areas; but for example  NYC ships their waste a few hundred miles away;  and shipping air in the empty container is a direct cost for them.

[US71]

Recycling really is just window dressing.  In my area the wacko mayor finally had to admit that they were just burying the "recyclables" in the dump with everything else, but said "well, we know where they are and someday....". 

If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it.  No deposit required.

Aluminum does have value (3 cents a can or so), but extracting that requires collection system which may cost more than it worth.
Another aspect of recycling certain things - and people seem to overlook that, although they do pay for that in a long run - is landfill capacity. Even with all compacting used, empty containers will take a lot of volume; that reduces landfill capacity, lifespan, and eventually shows up as a cost for residents via having to designate and establish new landfill - probably further away from the city. Maybe not a big thing for sparsely populated areas; but for example  NYC ships their waste a few hundred miles away;  and shipping air in the empty container is a direct cost for them.

Cans go for around 20 cents a pound at the scrapyard, which averages  1.5 cents a can. Tennessee charges a 5 cent "deposit" (tax) per can. On my way home from the RMCA meet, there was a major argument between a cashier and a customer about getting their "deposit" back. ... they didn't.

I have a box in the back of the van for collecting cans as I find them. I have a plastic barrel at home I keep them in then take them to recycling when the barrel is full.

[Scott5114]

If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it.  No deposit required.

It already does.

In Norman, the city has a contract with a recycling company. The company is required to pick up the recycling of everyone in town, at home. Then they sort the recyclables and sell the raw materials off to companies that do the actual recycling. They profit by getting more for the raw materials than it cost to pick them up and sort them.

[kalvado]

If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it.  No deposit required.

It already does.

In Norman, the city has a contract with a recycling company. The company is required to pick up the recycling of everyone in town, at home. Then they sort the recyclables and sell the raw materials off to companies that do the actual recycling. They profit by getting more for the raw materials than it cost to pick them up and sort them.

I heard that residential recycling rarely pays for itself until you consider landfill capacity as part of equation. Cans may be better than anything else, though.

[Duke87]

I heard that residential recycling rarely pays for itself until you consider landfill capacity as part of equation. Cans may be better than anything else, though.

More broadly, anything made of metal (not just cans) has pretty good economics for recycling because extracting metal from ore is a labor and energy intensive process, whereas melting down and reforming used metal is comparatively easy.

Aluminum is relatively cheap ($0.97/lb), but there are other metals for which it's even more of a slam dunk. Copper ($3.20/lb) is worth enough and abundant enough that people will take apart old electronics and machinery for it in their spare time. Tin ($9.45/lb) is even more valuable, albeit no longer found in pure form in any common items.

[kalvado]

I heard that residential recycling rarely pays for itself until you consider landfill capacity as part of equation. Cans may be better than anything else, though.

More broadly, anything made of metal (not just cans) has pretty good economics for recycling because extracting metal from ore is a labor and energy intensive process, whereas melting down and reforming used metal is comparatively easy.

Aluminum is relatively cheap ($0.97/lb), but there are other metals for which it's even more of a slam dunk. Copper ($3.20/lb) is worth enough and abundant enough that people will take apart old electronics and machinery for it in their spare time. Tin ($9.45/lb) is even more valuable, albeit no longer found in pure form in any common items.

There is not enough scrap metal generated in most residencies to justify periodic pickups like they do with trash and bottle-can-paper recycling. I am not sure chunk of Copper or bronze will actually get recycled if I throw that into regular recycle bin. Specialized scrap metal facilities are a different story.
I mean, my impression was we're talking about residential recycling of consumer products..

[US71]

If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it.  No deposit required.

It already does.

In Norman, the city has a contract with a recycling company. The company is required to pick up the recycling of everyone in town, at home. Then they sort the recyclables and sell the raw materials off to companies that do the actual recycling. They profit by getting more for the raw materials than it cost to pick them up and sort them.

Does the city pay the recycler (as Ft Smith does) or does the recycler pay for the privilege?

[kalvado]

Since we went to slightly more general recycling...
NYS also has a deposit on car batteries. The way it works is once you buy a new lead-acid battery, store charges you extra $5 and hands out separate receipt for that.
Once you bring an old battery for recycling to the same store, you get those $5 back with that receipt - just bringing an old battery without buying a new one doesn't work. As far as I understand, lead in the battery is worth a lot more than $5.