Families and kids poll time

[MultiMillionMiler]

Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.

Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.

Not always for that human however. At least with adopting you are actually improving the life of...someone who already exists.

So you're saying that someone who would be a good adoptive parent would not be a good biological parent?

No, I am saying that creating a new human without their consent is potentially subjecting them to suffering, whereas adopting a kid and getting them out of a shitty abusive overpopulated foster home is making a net positive difference because you are improving the life of someone who already is struggling and already exists.

[kphoger]

Babies who get adopted are not required to give their consent.

[MultiMillionMiler]

But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.

[Rothman]

Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.

Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.

Neither are correct.

[wanderer2575]

No kids.  Neither my wife nor I ever wanted any.

[triplemultiplex]

I think I'm best suited as an uncle.

[CtrlAltDel]

My wife wanted four kids, one girl and one boy.

I feel like there's a math error here.

[JayhawkCO]

Adoption is a great option and I'm certainly glad it exists. There is something "biologically satisfying" about having a child of your own and going through the whole process from beginning to end though. It's tough to describe to someone who hasn't gone through it.

I always found that an interesting take given I know that's a thing for a lot of people.  Our niece oldest niece isn't related to me by blood but is someone I didn't hesitate get temporary custody when she got taken from her mom.  We had the adoption papers ready to go in case my brother in law couldn't get custody (he did ultimately).  I went as far as to buy repaint a room for her and bought new furniture given she stayed with us for half a year.

Not to be too TMI, but my wife had to have an emergency C-section with our son. She suffered with some mental health issues because of it. It turns out, if the baby isn't delivered vaginally, the woman's body "doesn't realize they gave birth" and the chemicals and hormones released afterwards are different and/or missing. Similar, but obviously less "potent" issues affect fathers too.

[kphoger]

But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.

So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?

[kphoger]

My wife wanted four kids, one girl and one boy.

I feel like there's a math error here.

Seriously?  Did I seriously do that?  2+2=4

[MultiMillionMiler]

But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.

So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?

That depends on your living situation. 2-3 kids can go either way, by in general I think the people who have 5+ kids are selfish/impulsive. I think alot of the people who just think "oh let's have a bunch of cute things to cuddle with and take pictures with" aren't thinking long term about the actual work that has to be put in, and that they still can't just dump babysitting responsibilities and other parenting obligations on older siblings. In addition, its not fair to the older kids if they don't have a say in whether they want siblings or not. I think alot of the reproducing today is about instant gratification and the results  ofunsafe sex. I honestly feel alot of people who have so many kids are treating them as collectables/property. Or some people are just naive and think it's the equivalent work of having a pet.

[JayhawkCO]

By far, most of the reproduction today is not due to unsafe sex. I don't have numbers in front of me, but the vast majority of babies are born into committed relationships.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Committed Relationship does not = planned pregnancy.
They might not see it as big of a deal to accidentally have a kid if they're married and everything but that doesn't mean they necessarily wanted a kid then.

[kphoger]

Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.

At least with adopting you are actually improving the life of...someone who already exists.

So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby.

So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?

That depends on your living situation.

Why does it depend on my situation?  Isn't everything you just said true for me?

But OK, I'll bite.  What details about my "situation" do you need to know in order to judge my wife and me correctly?

I honestly feel alot of people who have so many kids are treating them as collectables/property. Or some people are just naive and think it's the equivalent work of having a pet.

I used to live with a man who said he thinks of adoption as the equivalent of getting a pet.

You know what?  I think I'd like a child.  Let's go out and buy one.

I'm not saying I agree with him, and my own mother was adopted, but I thought it was an interesting contrast to your position.

[JoePCool14]

I'm not married, but I'm semi-actively searching for the right woman. A desire to have children is a non-negotiable for me. Ideally, I'd like at least 3.

[SectorZ]

But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.

So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?

That depends on your living situation. 2-3 kids can go either way, by in general I think the people who have 5+ kids are selfish/impulsive. I think alot of the people who just think "oh let's have a bunch of cute things to cuddle with and take pictures with" aren't thinking long term about the actual work that has to be put in, and that they still can't just dump babysitting responsibilities and other parenting obligations on older siblings. In addition, its not fair to the older kids if they don't have a say in whether they want siblings or not. I think alot of the reproducing today is about instant gratification and the results  ofunsafe sex. I honestly feel alot of people who have so many kids are treating them as collectables/property. Or some people are just naive and think it's the equivalent work of having a pet.

My comrade on this board from the Merrimack Valley has joked that MMM is George Santos, but these anti-reproduction rants come off as similar to a female congress critter from MMM's neck of the woods.

I wonder if MMM has had a panic attack when he saw his first garbage disposal...

[kphoger]

I think alot of the reproducing today is about instant gratification and the results  ofunsafe sex.

By far, most of the reproduction today is not due to unsafe sex. I don't have numbers in front of me, but the vast majority of babies are born into committed relationships.

In 2020, 61% of abortions in the USA were unmarried, non-cohabiting mothers.
In 2020, 25% of abortions in the USA were unmarried, cohabiting mothers.
In 2020, 20% of all pregnancies in the USA ended in abortion.
In 2020, 4% of pregnancies among married women in the USA ended in abortion.

Just from those four statistics alone, I'd say it's quite clear that "the vast majority of babies are born into committed relationships".

[Roadgeekteen]

MMMs beliefs are just whatever pisses us off the most

[MultiMillionMiler]

Just the fact that those stats exist prove my point. And no, I am not judging anyone specifically, some people have 10 kids and treat them all great, but when you ask for my opinion, I'm going to be honest. And I'm not getting into any political abortion debate or other controversial crap. It's not an anti-reproduction or pro-eugenics rant to say that having 4-5+ kids in a world that's increasing at a rate of 80,000,000/year and a couple decades away from overpopulation, is irresponsible. Finances, physical health, work hours, location..etc are all indicators of whether it was a good idea to have kids. And people can say all they want "but WhO cArEs aBoUt MoNeY its a HuMaN life its a beautiful precious gift from god", that doesn't change the fact that you are going to need money to feed it.

[Roadgeekteen]

Just the fact that those stats exist prove my point. And no, I am not judging anyone specifically, some people have 10 kids and treat them all great, but when you ask for my opinion, I'm going to be honest. And I'm not getting into any political abortion debate or other controversial crap. It's not an anti-reproduction or pro-eugenics rant to say that having 4-5+ kids in a world that's increasing at a rate of 80,000,000/year and a couple decades away from overpopulation, is irresponsible. Finances, physical health, work hours, location..etc are all indicators of whether it was a good idea to have kids. And people can say all they want "but WhO cArEs aBoUt MoNeY its a HuMaN life its a beautiful precious gift from god", that doesn't change the fact that you are going to need money to feed it.

If you can pay for and support 4-5 kids that's fine. The US, where most of us live, is not in any danger of overpopulation. The growth of the world's population is already slowing due to crashing birth rates in much of the developing world.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Even if it's only 60,000,000 a year, it will reach overpopulation eventually. The US is already having issues with baby formula shortage..how does adding more babies help with that? And another totally unmentioned point was how it affects the kids themselves. What if an already struggling teen doesn't want to have 4 siblings?

[kphoger]

I am not judging anyone specifically

Everything you say represents specific people.  There's a good chance some of those people read your posts on this very forum.  If you don't want your comments to be applied to specific people, then don't make blanket statements.

It's not an anti-reproduction or pro-eugenics rant to say that having 4-5+ kids...

I'm good friends with multiple couples who have 4+ kids.  So I'm going to apply everything you say about "having 4-5+ kids" to them.  You opinions about "those people" are your opinions about Jason and Stephanie, Will and Sarah, ...

... in a world that's increasing at a rate of 80,000,000/year and a couple decades away from overpopulation,

My state's population has only gone up by less than 25,000 people in the last three years (2019 to 2022).  That's a total population increase of less than 1%.  Half of those years saw a 0% population increase.  I don't live in Bangladesh.

... is irresponsible. Finances, physical health, work hours, location..etc are all indicators of whether it was a good idea to have kids. And people can say all they want "but WhO cArEs aBoUt MoNeY its a HuMaN life its a beautiful precious gift from god", that doesn't change the fact that you are going to need money to feed it.

And that brings me back to my original question:

What details about my "situation" do you need to know in order to judge my wife and me correctly?  How much gross income should a couple have to make in order for it to have a third child?  What should our work hours look like?

The US is already having issues with baby formula shortage..how does adding more babies help with that?

All of the babies I personally know right now who are young enough to need a bottle (three babies) are breastfed exclusively.  Their births have had zero influence on any baby formula shortage.

And another totally unmentioned point was how it affects the kids themselves. What if an already struggling teen doesn't want to have 4 siblings?

What if an already struggling teen wishes he had siblings, but he doesn't?

[Roadgeekteen]

How many siblings do you have, MMM?

[SectorZ]

Of all the things MMM has shit in this thread, going after foster homes is pretty low-brow yet totally on-brand for MMM.

Those people save lives, with very little offered in return. I guess since you saw a TV episode of God knows what where kids came from a bad one they must all be bad.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Look at the condition of them, give me a break. And when I say that it may negatively affect the child having multiple kids, that's not even claiming intentional child abuse, that's just being human. No matter how hard you try, it is going to be much harder to care as well for 4-5+ kids simulatenously than 1-3. That's just the fact of being human. And to try to claim that most ACS facilities are good? Pfft. Again, no 2-3 people can effectively and optimally care for 20+ kids.