Traffic signal

[Amtrakprod]

Look at this traffic light: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.2757676,-122.4652544,3a,75y,353.28h,84.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPLJbbZSG6rU3-rppps2Dkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This installation has two red balls at the top of each light.  That's because of the hill and the train tracks on the approach to the light.  It's 3M directional because you don't want to give a green light to traffic on the other side of the tracks when the crossing arms are down.  And then so the red light can be seen from on the hill and lower down in front of the light, they put on two reds.  They could have just made the red and yellow non-focused.

so what if someone sees a red and a green when a train is coming, just install another light before like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1395767,-77.7087036,3a,61.8y,169.26h,93.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8Dd6nBliqG7rI4AZNoEqWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[jakeroot]

so what if someone sees a red and a green when a train is coming, just install another light before like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1395767,-77.7087036,3a,61.8y,169.26h,93.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8Dd6nBliqG7rI4AZNoEqWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I think there are numerous ways Tacoma's install could have been better. But it seems to work in practice.

[jeffandnicole]

Why make it complicated in the first place? Here's a train crossing just before a light. In each lane 2 or 3 cars can fit between the crossing and the light. No fancy signals. When the RR lights activate, the cross street gets the green. No gates either.

https://goo.gl/maps/znbjbGSzHFB2 (unfortunately the GSV angle isn't the best).

[Amtrakprod]

Why make it complicated in the first place? Here's a train crossing just before a light. In each lane 2 or 3 cars can fit between the crossing and the light. No fancy signals. When the RR lights activate, the cross street gets the green. No gates either.

https://goo.gl/maps/znbjbGSzHFB2 (unfortunately the GSV angle isn't the best).

Well, they need the fancy signals for the QZ, but yeah I think that if the crossing goes down first then its fine.

[ErmineNotyours]

Why make it complicated in the first place? Here's a train crossing just before a light. In each lane 2 or 3 cars can fit between the crossing and the light. No fancy signals. When the RR lights activate, the cross street gets the green. No gates either.

https://goo.gl/maps/znbjbGSzHFB2 (unfortunately the GSV angle isn't the best).

You want the light just down from the railroad to turn green to clear out possible backups on the tracks, preferably before the railroad signal activates.

[Amtrakprod]

Why make it complicated in the first place? Here's a train crossing just before a light. In each lane 2 or 3 cars can fit between the crossing and the light. No fancy signals. When the RR lights activate, the cross street gets the green. No gates either.

https://goo.gl/maps/znbjbGSzHFB2 (unfortunately the GSV angle isn't the best).

You want the light just down from the railroad to turn green to clear out possible backups on the tracks, preferably before the railroad signal activates.

No because then cars will be going across the tracks while the lights turn on

[Michael]

Last weekend, I was turning left at this intersection, and I had a thought: is the stop legally enforceable?  I've been through this intersection (usually going straight) many times through my entire life, and I never thought of this until last weekend.  Would a colorblind person know that it's a red flashing light instead of a yellow?  If not, they wouldn't know it's a stop if the word STOP on the pavement was covered by snow.  The left turn lane used to extend to Newport Rd, and a block before the light, "STOP AHEAD" was painted on the pavement, and there were one or two "STOP AHEAD" signs with "LEFT LANE" plaques.  The lane was shortened and the signs were removed sometime between 2006 and 2008 based on looking at old aerial imagery and Street View.

A potential solution to the red flashing light could be having a two segment signal with the bottom segment always being dark.  Before the new exit from the Farimount Wegmans aligned with the onramp to the Camilus Bypass was added, this intersection had two segment signals for the through movement with only a green arrow ever showing.  At the time, I wondered why they had two segments but only ever used one of them, but now I realize that it may have been for colorblind people.

[jakeroot]

Last weekend, I was turning left at this intersection, and I had a thought: is the stop legally enforceable?  I've been through this intersection (usually going straight) many times through my entire life, and I never thought of this until last weekend.  Would a colorblind person know that it's a red flashing light instead of a yellow?  If not, they wouldn't know it's a stop if the word STOP on the pavement was covered by snow.  The left turn lane used to extend to Newport Rd, and a block before the light, "STOP AHEAD" was painted on the pavement, and there were one or two "STOP AHEAD" signs with "LEFT LANE" plaques.  The lane was shortened and the signs were removed sometime between 2006 and 2008 based on looking at old aerial imagery and Street View.

Though I've seen more than a few left turns across divided highways that were posted with stop signs, I have definitely never seen such a thing on a single-carriageway road. Rather than debate its enforceability (I'm sure it is), the debate should be whether or not its even needed. I can imagine regular conflicts between cars on the side street and those turning left off Genesee. The cars on Genesee stop to grant ROW to those turning left off Bingham, for example, but end up going anyway since traffic continuing straight along Genesee block the left turners.

[Michael]

I don't think the stop is even necessary, but it's been that way for my entire life.  This is the only intersection on a non-divided highway I've ever seen that requires a stop for a left turn.  I wonder if it was the same way when this was NY 5.  Before the Camillus Bypass, this would have been a much busier intersection.  I don't think I've ever seen a car turning onto or off of Bingham Place.

When I was turning, I think I ended up waiting for the pickup truck that was approaching from the other direction.  If I didn't have to come to a compete stop, I would have had enough time to turn in front of the truck.

As I was writing this post, I thought of another factor I forgot about: Bingham Place used to do a weird jog through the intersection, but I don't remember seeing any cars use either half of it.  Here's an old aerial image from Historic Aerials.

For reference, the NYSDOT Traffic Data Viewer shows an AADT of 9,746 cars per day on Genesee St., and 2,320 cars per day on Milton Ave.

[US 89]

Isn't there a guideline that says there have to be physical stop signs accompanying a flashing beacon? Or does that not apply to left turns?

[hotdogPi]

Isn't there a guideline that says there have to be physical stop signs accompanying a flashing beacon? Or does that not apply to left turns?

Left turns have nothing to do with it. The idea is that you still have to stop if the power goes out and the light no longer flashes.

[paulthemapguy]

Last weekend, I was turning left at this intersection, and I had a thought: is the stop legally enforceable?  I've been through this intersection (usually going straight) many times through my entire life, and I never thought of this until last weekend.  Would a colorblind person know that it's a red flashing light instead of a yellow?  If not, they wouldn't know it's a stop if the word STOP on the pavement was covered by snow.  The left turn lane used to extend to Newport Rd, and a block before the light, "STOP AHEAD" was painted on the pavement, and there were one or two "STOP AHEAD" signs with "LEFT LANE" plaques.  The lane was shortened and the signs were removed sometime between 2006 and 2008 based on looking at old aerial imagery and Street View.

A potential solution to the red flashing light could be having a two segment signal with the bottom segment always being dark.  Before the new exit from the Farimount Wegmans aligned with the onramp to the Camilus Bypass was added, this intersection had two segment signals for the through movement with only a green arrow ever showing.  At the time, I wondered why they had two segments but only ever used one of them, but now I realize that it may have been for colorblind people.

I think the goal of painting "Stop" and a stop bar in the left turn is to discourage people in the left turn lane from creeping forward, because oncoming traffic will clip your front left end if you do so.  If such an accident occurs, however, I'm not sure who would be deemed at fault (which is what I think you guys are discussing).  My point is, though--they did this because of this road's bend to the right, so oncoming cars don't collide with left-turners that poke their noses forward.

[jakeroot]

I think the goal of painting "Stop" and a stop bar in the left turn is to discourage people in the left turn lane from creeping forward, because oncoming traffic will clip your front left end if you do so.  If such an accident occurs, however, I'm not sure who would be deemed at fault (which is what I think you guys are discussing).  My point is, though--they did this because of this road's bend to the right, so oncoming cars don't collide with left-turners that poke their noses forward.

They could always just paint some sharks teeth on the ground, like this (which were placed way back so cars would yield to wide-turning trucks).

[Amtrakprod]

Last weekend, I was turning left at this intersection, and I had a thought: is the stop legally enforceable?  I've been through this intersection (usually going straight) many times through my entire life, and I never thought of this until last weekend.  Would a colorblind person know that it's a red flashing light instead of a yellow?  If not, they wouldn't know it's a stop if the word STOP on the pavement was covered by snow.  The left turn lane used to extend to Newport Rd, and a block before the light, "STOP AHEAD" was painted on the pavement, and there were one or two "STOP AHEAD" signs with "LEFT LANE" plaques.  The lane was shortened and the signs were removed sometime between 2006 and 2008 based on looking at old aerial imagery and Street View.

A potential solution to the red flashing light could be having a two segment signal with the bottom segment always being dark.  Before the new exit from the Farimount Wegmans aligned with the onramp to the Camilus Bypass was added, this intersection had two segment signals for the through movement with only a green arrow ever showing.  At the time, I wondered why they had two segments but only ever used one of them, but now I realize that it may have been for colorblind people.

Here's a fix, change the red balls to arrows, then add a sign like this: <img src="https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-8715e/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/46321/70991/FRR489__11265.1482886473.jpg?c=2?imbypass=on" alt="Image result for left turn yield on flashing red arrow after stop"/>

[ErmineNotyours]

Isn't there a guideline that says there have to be physical stop signs accompanying a flashing beacon? Or does that not apply to left turns?

Left turns have nothing to do with it. The idea is that you still have to stop if the power goes out and the light no longer flashes.

Saw this recently: red flasher with yellow reflective trim, so that when the power goes out you know to treat this four way stop as a four way stop.

[Amtrakprod]

Isn't there a guideline that says there have to be physical stop signs accompanying a flashing beacon? Or does that not apply to left turns?

Left turns have nothing to do with it. The idea is that you still have to stop if the power goes out and the light no longer flashes.

Saw this recently: red flasher with yellow reflective trim, so that when the power goes out you know to treat this four way stop as a four way stop.

um, that's not the point of the reflective border, it's so drivers at night can identify it better.

[CJResotko]

Here are a couple of YouTube videos of mine of traffic signals in Michigan that I've seen
https://youtu.be/0PWU_cesNRs

Eagle Durasig/3M PV clusters:
https://youtu.be/uW4irf46QMk

Delayed LFE Doghouse left turn arrow:
https://youtu.be/gD_iQ0MeVp4

[roadfro]

Last weekend, I was turning left at this intersection, and I had a thought: is the stop legally enforceable?  I've been through this intersection (usually going straight) many times through my entire life, and I never thought of this until last weekend.  Would a colorblind person know that it's a red flashing light instead of a yellow?  If not, they wouldn't know it's a stop if the word STOP on the pavement was covered by snow.  The left turn lane used to extend to Newport Rd, and a block before the light, "STOP AHEAD" was painted on the pavement, and there were one or two "STOP AHEAD" signs with "LEFT LANE" plaques.  The lane was shortened and the signs were removed sometime between 2006 and 2008 based on looking at old aerial imagery and Street View.

Though I've seen more than a few left turns across divided highways that were posted with stop signs, I have definitely never seen such a thing on a single-carriageway road. Rather than debate its enforceability (I'm sure it is), the debate should be whether or not its even needed. I can imagine regular conflicts between cars on the side street and those turning left off Genesee. The cars on Genesee stop to grant ROW to those turning left off Bingham, for example, but end up going anyway since traffic continuing straight along Genesee block the left turners.

Yeah, I'm not sure that a full stop is even warranted for the left turn.

Isn't there a guideline that says there have to be physical stop signs accompanying a flashing beacon? Or does that not apply to left turns?

Yes, there is:

Section 4L.02 Intersection Control Beacon

Standard:
01 An Intersection Control Beacon shall consist of one or more signal faces directed toward each approach to an intersection. Each signal face shall consist of one or more signal sections of a standard traffic signal face, with flashing CIRCULAR YELLOW or CIRCULAR RED signal indications in each signal face. They shall be installed and used only at an intersection to control two or more directions of travel.

02 Application of Intersection Control Beacon signal indications shall be limited to the following:

    Yellow on one route (normally the major street) and red for the remaining approaches, and
    Red for all approaches (if the warrant described in Section 2B.07 for a multi-way stop is satisfied).

03 Flashing yellow signal indications shall not face conflicting vehicular approaches.

04 A STOP sign shall be used on approaches to which a flashing red signal indication is displayed on an Intersection Control Beacon (see Section 2B.04).

By my read, this intersection violates paragraph four of this section due to the lack of stop sign. It also seems to run afoul of paragraph two, because there are both red and yellow flashers facing this approach.

[Amtrakprod]

I'm sure David has sent this one but I have to share it again! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbdtcnFyP8c&t=97s

These old GE Streamlines are amazing, located: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9969037,-74.0595279,3a,77.7y,4.92h,86.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIkWrfuTuGkwLgRDpdPPo_g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Amtrakprod]

Look at the reflective border on these signals!
I'm not sure if you can tell but the reflective border is GREEN!


iPhone

[Big John]

^^ They look like florescent yellow-green as seen on some signs such as school crossings.

[Amtrakprod]

^^ They look like florescent yellow-green as seen on some signs such as school crossings.

Yes


iPhone

[jakeroot]

I guess as far as negative-contrast background go, we've now officially seen them all. Yellow borders in most states, a few white borders in PA, and now FYG in Mass.

[MNHighwayMan]

I guess as far as negative-contrast background go, we've now officially seen them all. Yellow borders in most states, a few white borders in PA, and now FYG in Mass.

Orange?

[index]

[snipped images]



Look at the reflective border on these signals!
I'm not sure if you can tell but the reflective border is GREEN!


iPhone

I've got a few more of those saved on Google Maps, here's two examples in Sioux Falls, SD:


https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5620984,-96.7113932,3a,18.3y,106.07h,102.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soMWLEpH9TumV_LHEFt6RHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5875874,-96.7115972,3a,15.2y,204.12h,110.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJrgw8pwKU4DWM8vjudibOA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DJrgw8pwKU4DWM8vjudibOA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D157.5747%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656


An example in Florida:


https://www.google.com/maps/@28.7641194,-82.5532254,3a,22.4y,258.98h,100.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sohha-Pypgn77uEqnPbTURg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


And something really interesting looking in Houston, these backplates appear to use the shade of pink reserved for incident management signs:


https://www.google.com/maps/@29.8031801,-95.3681823,3a,51.2y,91.01h,96.99t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1suiIzDBceSmtrfae-sgQ5yg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DuiIzDBceSmtrfae-sgQ5yg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D284.2561%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

The pink outline seems to only be used on signals that control the flow of traffic across the light rail tracks nearby.