Regional driving etiquette

[webny99]

One thing that bothers me on narrow one-lane streets is drivers trying to take turns. That's not at all efficient. Go when clear, and always go in groups. Always follow the car in front.

Wut?

Yeah, I'm confused too... jakeroot, are you talking about one lane streets with two-way traffic? That sounds chaotic, and I don't know of any examples of such here in the US, aside from maybe something like this.

I don't mean physically forced by curbing or something. Parked cars along either edge create a residential street with a single bi-directional lane of traffic. Extremely effective calming solution.

https://goo.gl/maps/g7mb7JiY6QfVT2MB9

Very occasionally, traffic will take turns on either side of the stretch, but this is very inefficient. Always follow the car in front, and go when there is a gap in approaching traffic. Right of way is granted to whoever can fit into the gap first. Once the gap develops, you go, and then any oncoming traffic (and everyone behind them) will then wait for you; meanwhile, traffic waiting behind you tails you through the single-lane stretch. The process reverses naturally.

There is no way streets like this are relegated to the Pacific Northwest (where virtually every major city has a majority of their residential streets operating like this -- Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, Spokane -- Everywhere). You don't need two lanes when we're talking about a residential street.

I could be wrong, but I'm not even sure that's legal here in the Northeast. It might vary from city to city, but I've certainly never seen anything like the example you cited. Sure, there are roads with parking on both sides, but they would always be one-way in that case.

[epzik8]

Right on red even when the signal says no turn on red.

That's because you can't see the No Turn On Red sign, because it's behind your rear bumper when you pull up to the stop line.

epzik8 lives in Maryland, so more likely it's because the person never stopped and never saw the sign.

They stop, but don't wait for the light to turn green.

[jakeroot]

One thing that bothers me on narrow one-lane streets is drivers trying to take turns. That's not at all efficient. Go when clear, and always go in groups. Always follow the car in front.

Wut?

Yeah, I'm confused too... jakeroot, are you talking about one lane streets with two-way traffic? That sounds chaotic, and I don't know of any examples of such here in the US, aside from maybe something like this.

I don't mean physically forced by curbing or something. Parked cars along either edge create a residential street with a single bi-directional lane of traffic. Extremely effective calming solution.

https://goo.gl/maps/g7mb7JiY6QfVT2MB9

Very occasionally, traffic will take turns on either side of the stretch, but this is very inefficient. Always follow the car in front, and go when there is a gap in approaching traffic. Right of way is granted to whoever can fit into the gap first. Once the gap develops, you go, and then any oncoming traffic (and everyone behind them) will then wait for you; meanwhile, traffic waiting behind you tails you through the single-lane stretch. The process reverses naturally.

There is no way streets like this are relegated to the Pacific Northwest (where virtually every major city has a majority of their residential streets operating like this -- Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, Spokane -- Everywhere). You don't need two lanes when we're talking about a residential street.

I could be wrong, but I'm not even sure that's legal here in the Northeast. It might vary from city to city, but I've certainly never seen anything like the example you cited. Sure, there are roads with parking on both sides, but they would always be one-way in that case.

Why would it be illegal? And more importantly, why would it need to be one way? You just wait for cars to clear and then you go. It's not a big deal. It's a residential street. I see it in every other country. I thought it was just as usual here in the US too. Not until you and Roth got confused by my comment did it occur to me that it might not be.

How do suburban housing estates in New York work? Are streets always wide enough for two lanes of parked cars and two directions of traffic? That seems unnecessary on a road with a dozen vehicles per hour.

[SSOWorld]

In Northeast Illinois,
* if you see someone coming at you - don't move, or he'll crash into you.
* Expect a horn even after a millisecond of delay.
* to get into a lane, take your spot even if you have to cut someone off (seriously - they won't budge)
* You'll likely get the state bird for petty shit.

[jeffandnicole]

One thing that bothers me on narrow one-lane streets is drivers trying to take turns. That's not at all efficient. Go when clear, and always go in groups. Always follow the car in front.

Wut?

Yeah, I'm confused too... jakeroot, are you talking about one lane streets with two-way traffic? That sounds chaotic, and I don't know of any examples of such here in the US, aside from maybe something like this.

I don't mean physically forced by curbing or something. Parked cars along either edge create a residential street with a single bi-directional lane of traffic. Extremely effective calming solution.

https://goo.gl/maps/g7mb7JiY6QfVT2MB9

Very occasionally, traffic will take turns on either side of the stretch, but this is very inefficient. Always follow the car in front, and go when there is a gap in approaching traffic. Right of way is granted to whoever can fit into the gap first. Once the gap develops, you go, and then any oncoming traffic (and everyone behind them) will then wait for you; meanwhile, traffic waiting behind you tails you through the single-lane stretch. The process reverses naturally.

There is no way streets like this are relegated to the Pacific Northwest (where virtually every major city has a majority of their residential streets operating like this -- Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, Spokane -- Everywhere). You don't need two lanes when we're talking about a residential street.

I could be wrong, but I'm not even sure that's legal here in the Northeast. It might vary from city to city, but I've certainly never seen anything like the example you cited. Sure, there are roads with parking on both sides, but they would always be one-way in that case.

Why would it be illegal? And more importantly, why would it need to be one way? You just wait for cars to clear and then you go. It's not a big deal. It's a residential street. I see it in every other country. I thought it was just as usual here in the US too. Not until you and Roth got confused by my comment did it occur to me that it might not be.

How do suburban housing estates in New York work? Are streets always wide enough for two lanes of parked cars and two directions of traffic? That seems unnecessary on a road with a dozen vehicles per hour.

It's not illegal.  In fact, it's fairly common.  Many suburban developments allow parking on both sides, and when cars are on both sides, there's often only enough room for one direction to go at a time.

[webny99]

Very occasionally, traffic will take turns on either side of the stretch, but this is very inefficient. Always follow the car in front, and go when there is a gap in approaching traffic. Right of way is granted to whoever can fit into the gap first. Once the gap develops, you go, and then any oncoming traffic (and everyone behind them) will then wait for you; meanwhile, traffic waiting behind you tails you through the single-lane stretch. The process reverses naturally.

There is no way streets like this are relegated to the Pacific Northwest (where virtually every major city has a majority of their residential streets operating like this -- Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, Spokane -- Everywhere). You don't need two lanes when we're talking about a residential street.

I could be wrong, but I'm not even sure that's legal here in the Northeast. It might vary from city to city, but I've certainly never seen anything like the example you cited. Sure, there are roads with parking on both sides, but they would always be one-way in that case.

Why would it be illegal? And more importantly, why would it need to be one way? You just wait for cars to clear and then you go. It's not a big deal. It's a residential street. I see it in every other country. I thought it was just as usual here in the US too. Not until you and Roth got confused by my comment did it occur to me that it might not be.

How do suburban housing estates in New York work? Are streets always wide enough for two lanes of parked cars and two directions of traffic? That seems unnecessary on a road with a dozen vehicles per hour.

On-street parking is pretty rare in suburban areas. It's more common in cities, but generally only on one side of the street. I am not sure about other cities, but the city of Rochester has it's own particularly weird parking rules, where the side of the street you can park on flip-flops depending on the day of the week. Streets definitely aren't wide enough for two parked cars and two travel lanes, as you can see in the link above, but I guess I never thought about it too much, since most people park in a driveway or off-street, so it's rare to see one side of the road lined with cars for a significant length, much less both sides.

As for one-way streets, I should clarify that most of the examples that I can think of with parking on both sides are in a commercial setting, not a residential one. Example here. Any one-way streets in a residential setting are likely just too narrow for both two-way traffic and on-street parking, so the compromise is one lane for travel and one lane for on-street parking. Example here.

It's not illegal.  In fact, it's fairly common.  Many suburban developments allow parking on both sides, and when cars are on both sides, there's often only enough room for one direction to go at a time.

This might be a case of this simply not being necessary in Upstate NY like it might be in a more densely-populated area, or where houses are built closer to the street with shorter driveways. I think of a driveway as having capacity for at least three or four cars, but that's not the case everywhere.

[behogie230]

It's not illegal.  In fact, it's fairly common.  Many suburban developments allow parking on both sides, and when cars are on both sides, there's often only enough room for one direction to go at a time.

This might be a case of this simply not being necessary in Upstate NY like it might be in a more densely-populated area, or where houses are built closer to the street with shorter driveways. I think of a driveway as having capacity for at least three or four cars, but that's not the case everywhere.

At least in Pennsylvania, these are called "yield streets"  and are quite common for streets designed before the automobile and before setback laws. Some don't even have parking and are one lane wide... So because of no setbacks, you turn off of a busy road onto a yield street and there's a car headed right towards you, meaning you have to back out onto the busy street to let them pass... that sucks.

For example, here's one that may look like an alley but it actually has a decent number of houses and businesses along it: https://goo.gl/maps/Xut48WMxobPxT4EMA

[US20IL64]

On I-294, if in right or middle right lane, going 75-80 in 65 zone, and some yuppie is tailgating, you are supposed to magically disappear.

Also, left and right turn lanes are actually spots to stop and look at smart phones for social media news feeds. If you honk after 5 seconds of green arrow, it is a horrible insult, and they have the "right" to drive slow and cut you off if try to pass.

[jakeroot]

Why would it be illegal? And more importantly, why would it need to be one way? You just wait for cars to clear and then you go. It's not a big deal. It's a residential street. I see it in every other country. I thought it was just as usual here in the US too. Not until you and Roth got confused by my comment did it occur to me that it might not be.

How do suburban housing estates in New York work? Are streets always wide enough for two lanes of parked cars and two directions of traffic? That seems unnecessary on a road with a dozen vehicles per hour.

On-street parking is pretty rare in suburban areas. It's more common in cities, but generally only on one side of the street. I am not sure about other cities, but the city of Rochester has it's own particularly weird parking rules, where the side of the street you can park on flip-flops depending on the day of the week. Streets definitely aren't wide enough for two parked cars and two travel lanes, as you can see in the link above, but I guess I never thought about it too much, since most people park in a driveway or off-street, so it's rare to see one side of the road lined with cars for a significant length, much less both sides.

As for one-way streets, I should clarify that most of the examples that I can think of with parking on both sides are in a commercial setting, not a residential one. Example here. Any one-way streets in a residential setting are likely just too narrow for both two-way traffic and on-street parking, so the compromise is one lane for travel and one lane for on-street parking. Example here.

Yeah, nothing that you're describing here is anything like how I've seen things operate out here. Flip-flopping street sides is not a thing. Frankly, I'm glad it's not since anyone leaving town for more than a couple of days would have to find off-street parking. And speaking of which, off-street parking is absolutely a thing here (although certainly less-so in cities), but street parking is still widespread in neighborhoods for many reasons...

It's not illegal.  In fact, it's fairly common.  Many suburban developments allow parking on both sides, and when cars are on both sides, there's often only enough room for one direction to go at a time.

This might be a case of this simply not being necessary in Upstate NY like it might be in a more densely-populated area, or where houses are built closer to the street with shorter driveways. I think of a driveway as having capacity for at least three or four cars, but that's not the case everywhere.

Not the case everywhere. But even in areas where I've seen longer driveways, it can be preferable to park on the street. Taller vehicle and/or longer vehicle, not wanting to block someone in, party requiring more parking than usual, just being easier at the time, and so on. These aren't things that happen all the time, but the extra hassles that you're describing in New York (or at least Rochester) seems like it makes something that should be very easy, much harder than it should be.

After all, if the idea is to make it so two cars don't have to yield to each other, it doesn't seem even remotely worth it.

At least in Pennsylvania, these are called "yield streets"  and are quite common for streets designed before the automobile and before setback laws. Some don't even have parking and are one lane wide... So because of no setbacks, you turn off of a busy road onto a yield street and there's a car headed right towards you, meaning you have to back out onto the busy street to let them pass... that sucks.

For example, here's one that may look like an alley but it actually has a decent number of houses and businesses along it: https://goo.gl/maps/Xut48WMxobPxT4EMA

Quite funny to think a ubiquitous situation here in the northwest has a name in other places. It could have a name here, but it's just not something I would have thought to give a name.

Also, at least to me, that's just an alley. I'm not aware of many alleys in urban areas where room for two cars to pass is the standard width.

[StogieGuy7]

In Northeast Illinois,
* if you see someone coming at you - don't move, or he'll crash into you.
* Expect a horn even after a millisecond of delay.
* to get into a lane, take your spot even if you have to cut someone off (seriously - they won't budge)
* You'll likely get the state bird for petty shit.

OK, if your definition of a millisecond is the same as I see around SE WI, it's more like 7 seconds and half of a green arrow.  And you deserve the horn.  Actually, this is worse now everywhere because of idiots playing with their phones.

And, if you define camping in the left lane to be petty shit, well you're right about getting the state bird for it. As many of us have moved across the cheddar curtain, I'm hoping the overall level of driving skill will surely improve in Sconsin, because I can't imagine how easy the WI driving test (that they don't make us immigrants take) must have been.

[hbelkins]

Funeral processions are unheard of here for civilians. And honestly it sounds like a recipe for disaster in any area with congestion, as untrained drivers won't be able to keep their formation.

I was thinking the same thing. Funeral processions are one of those things that I see for either (a) very specific individuals or (b) in movies.

According to WA law, funeral processions only have right-of-way over other traffic when accompanied by a police service, and getting that sort of escort outside of very special situations is definitely unheard of.

I don't know if Kentucky has a legal definition for funeral procession, but they happen at practically every funeral service here. Sometimes there is a police escort, sometimes there isn't. The hearse usually leads it, followed by the mourners as they depart the funeral home or church and head to the cemetery. Vehicles in the procession will have their headlights and/or flashers on, and some funeral homes even have flags or pennants to place on the vehicles to indicate they are part of the procession. Police will often direct traffic at signals or at busy unsignalized intersections along the route.

[vdeane]

Not the case everywhere. But even in areas where I've seen longer driveways, it can be preferable to park on the street. Taller vehicle and/or longer vehicle, not wanting to block someone in, party requiring more parking than usual, just being easier at the time, and so on. These aren't things that happen all the time, but the extra hassles that you're describing in New York (or at least Rochester) seems like it makes something that should be very easy, much harder than it should be.

Depends on where one is.  Street parking is naturally common in the city (affected as it is by the street sweeping schedule).  For suburbs, it becomes less common the newer the suburb is and the larger the driveways are.  And at at least one suburb (Pittsford) actually bans it overnight in winter to facilitate snow removal.

Where my parents are, there's usually at least some people parked in the street for parties and whatnot, even though people tend to park in their driveways and garages.  And just a month ago the street was full of cars as everyone decided to get their driveways resurfaced at the same time so the contractor could just go down the street.

[US 89]

I've been part of a funeral procession once, in Sioux Falls after my great-uncle died. We just drove from the church to the cemetery. Nothing special about it - no police escort, no special traffic control, no flags or pennants or flashers or anything... just a bunch of cars heading from one place to another. Some of us got split up at a couple red lights, but so what.

[LilianaUwU]

In my hometown, it seems as though the 90 km/h zones are read as 60 km/h zones by tourists enjoying the scenery. It's pretty dangerous, especially considering people usually go 100 km/h and over on the two-lane road.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

There may be a regional difference about how street parking is seen. In the northeast (at least the parts I am familiar with), street parking "just because" or in preference to parking in your own driveway, is not common at all. In suburbs, generally if you have a driveway, you use it (garages are another story, in the true american fashion those are for filling with a bunch of useless crap, not cars. And massive 2021 SUVs and trucks barely fit in them anyways).

As others have mentioned, in upstate NY almost every town, and even many larger cities, have rules banning overnight parking (or in the case of my hometown, absolutely all street parking, day and night) for a good half the year. If that's not the case, then there is probably some form of alternate-side parking, sometimes requiring you to move your car every single day of the week at one specific time.

People's attitudes also reflect this. Parking in front of someone else's property is seen as offensive. There are neighborhoods where people will actually damage your car or threaten you if you park in front of their house on a public street. I've seen this in Staten Island and residential parts of the Bronx.

[Bruce]

A fair number of newer suburbs in the Seattle area actually have fewer driveways, leading to the same street parking situation seen in some in-city neighborhoods. Or some are deliberately designed with driveways in an alley that some residents find inconvenient to use.

[jeffandnicole]

...And massive 2021 SUVs and trucks barely fit in them anyways).

SUVs today are the same size as they were 20 years ago. These people have no intention of using their garage as a spot for their vehicle. And newer houses often can have garage doors 9 feet wide, but people don't want to pay for that.

[J N Winkler]

We could easily have a separate thread dedicated to formal and informal rules about parking.

In Wichita, where I live, people typically aren't offended if you park in front of their property without having a connection to the household (e.g., as a resident or invited guest), but they do notice, and that is often a cue to look up the street and see if there's a party or event of some kind going on.  There is an unsigned time limit to curbside parking (I've been told in the past it is 72 hours, but I suspect it has been changed to 48 hours), and overstayers are ticketed and towed.  People who have to park in the street due to limited garage and driveway space thus try to drive at least once every other day so that their cars are seen to be absent some of the time.  It's also not uncommon to pave part of the sideway to create additional off-street parking.

When I visited Milwaukee back in 2017, the biggest surprise was a year-round complete ban on overnight curbside parking (except for holders of police permits).

[dlsterner]

In Northeast Illinois,
* if you see someone coming at you - don't move, or he'll crash into you.
* Expect a horn even after a millisecond of delay.
* to get into a lane, take your spot even if you have to cut someone off (seriously - they won't budge)
* You'll likely get the state bird for petty shit.

So everybody in Northeast Illinois drives like Cra_shIt?

[hotdogPi]

In Northeast Illinois,
* if you see someone coming at you - don't move, or he'll crash into you.
* Expect a horn even after a millisecond of delay.
* to get into a lane, take your spot even if you have to cut someone off (seriously - they won't budge)
* You'll likely get the state bird for petty shit.

So everybody in Northeast Illinois drives like Cra_shIt?

Brandon has videos similar to Cra_shIt's, except only the other driver is doing something wrong. (And sometimes, it doesn't directly involve him, such as a car running a red because the light past it turned green – and there's a cop right there.)

[jdbx]

One thing that bothers me on narrow one-lane streets is drivers trying to take turns. That's not at all efficient. Go when clear, and always go in groups. Always follow the car in front.

Wut?

Yeah, I'm confused too... jakeroot, are you talking about one lane streets with two-way traffic? That sounds chaotic, and I don't know of any examples of such here in the US, aside from maybe something like this.

I don't mean physically forced by curbing or something. Parked cars along either edge create a residential street with a single bi-directional lane of traffic. Extremely effective calming solution.

https://goo.gl/maps/g7mb7JiY6QfVT2MB9

Very occasionally, traffic will take turns on either side of the stretch, but this is very inefficient. Always follow the car in front, and go when there is a gap in approaching traffic. Right of way is granted to whoever can fit into the gap first. Once the gap develops, you go, and then any oncoming traffic (and everyone behind them) will then wait for you; meanwhile, traffic waiting behind you tails you through the single-lane stretch. The process reverses naturally.

There is no way streets like this are relegated to the Pacific Northwest (where virtually every major city has a majority of their residential streets operating like this -- Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, Spokane -- Everywhere). You don't need two lanes when we're talking about a residential street.

I could be wrong, but I'm not even sure that's legal here in the Northeast. It might vary from city to city, but I've certainly never seen anything like the example you cited. Sure, there are roads with parking on both sides, but they would always be one-way in that case.

I live in a neighborhood that is exactly like this.  The streets are all just wide enough that 2 cars can barely squeeze by if somebody is parked on one side.  If somebody is parked on both sides, which is considered rude but legal, there is just enough room for one car to squeeze between.  There have been days when our trash was not picked up because the garbage trucks could not squeeze between parked cars at either end of the block.  Residents generally know better, but visitors and trades people do it all the time.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9399,-122.0744562,3a,75y,183.88h,82.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKAiWaxLrpvPvYqtJ5sjsug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9407755,-122.0711275,3a,75y,197.14h,82.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_aTNxcGuxHsti18k0yvzKA!2e0!5s20150401T000000!7i13312!8i6656

The only saving grace is that most people do not park on the street.  GSV seems to have only passed through while there are few cars on the street, it's usually a little worse than those images would lead you to believe.

[Scott5114]

In Northeast Illinois,
* if you see someone coming at you - don't move, or he'll crash into you.
* Expect a horn even after a millisecond of delay.
* to get into a lane, take your spot even if you have to cut someone off (seriously - they won't budge)
* You'll likely get the state bird for petty shit.

So everybody in Northeast Illinois drives like Cra_shIt?

Brandon has videos similar to Cra_shIt's, except only the other driver is doing something wrong. (And sometimes, it doesn't directly involve him, such as a car running a red because the light past it turned green – and there's a cop right there.)

I wonder if he's ever recorded Crash_It's driving without realizing it...

[Flint1979]

In Northeast Illinois,
* if you see someone coming at you - don't move, or he'll crash into you.
* Expect a horn even after a millisecond of delay.
* to get into a lane, take your spot even if you have to cut someone off (seriously - they won't budge)
* You'll likely get the state bird for petty shit.

So everybody in Northeast Illinois drives like Cra_shIt?

Brandon has videos similar to Cra_shIt's, except only the other driver is doing something wrong. (And sometimes, it doesn't directly involve him, such as a car running a red because the light past it turned green – and there's a cop right there.)

I wonder if he's ever recorded Crash_It's driving without realizing it...

I'm not sure who's worse that safespeeder guy that was bragging about going triple digits or cra_shit

[empirestate]

Same thing in NYC and North Jersey. It's very common and expected for people to turn left when the light turns red. When I go back home to upstate NY this seems very rare. People will just wait scared behind the line and if they don't see a gap, they'll wait for a whole new cycle. When I explained the concept of waiting in the intersection and turning left on red to my mom (who learned to drive in a rural area), she had no idea what I was talking about.

This is very interesting, because I am a lifelong Upstater, and it's only since moving downstate that I've noticed the tendency to wait at the stop line, so much so that I've been wondering whether it's a regional difference, whether the practice has changed over time, or if indeed the law itself has changed.

Yes, learning to drive Upstate we all knew that you pulled into the intersection to turn left, and had your chance to complete the turn during the brief all-red phase. This wasn't merely informal practice, this was how you were trained in the DMV manual. Now that I live in the Hudson Valley, I've noticed the practice of waiting behind the line to be far more common–in fact, I'd never registered it as being a thing at all until living here.

I'd agree that this isn't prevalent in the city proper, and I'd never really noticed it while living there, either. So maybe this is indeed a regional practice, specific to the Hudson Valley and perhaps also the OP's corner of upstate. One possible explanation I've observed is that there are a couple of known left turn traps in the area (US 9 at NY 301 for one example), so perhaps some locals have learned to avoid these. But the practice seems too widespread for this to be the whole reason.

[kalvado]

Same thing in NYC and North Jersey. It's very common and expected for people to turn left when the light turns red. When I go back home to upstate NY this seems very rare. People will just wait scared behind the line and if they don't see a gap, they'll wait for a whole new cycle. When I explained the concept of waiting in the intersection and turning left on red to my mom (who learned to drive in a rural area), she had no idea what I was talking about.

This is very interesting, because I am a lifelong Upstater, and it's only since moving downstate that I've noticed the tendency to wait at the stop line, so much so that I've been wondering whether it's a regional difference, whether the practice has changed over time, or if indeed the law itself has changed.

Yes, learning to drive Upstate we all knew that you pulled into the intersection to turn left, and had your chance to complete the turn during the brief all-red phase. This wasn't merely informal practice, this was how you were trained in the DMV manual. Now that I live in the Hudson Valley, I've noticed the practice of waiting behind the line to be far more common–in fact, I'd never registered it as being a thing at all until living here.

I'd agree that this isn't prevalent in the city proper, and I'd never really noticed it while living there, either. So maybe this is indeed a regional practice, specific to the Hudson Valley and perhaps also the OP's corner of upstate. One possible explanation I've observed is that there are a couple of known left turn traps in the area (US 9 at NY 301 for one example), so perhaps some locals have learned to avoid these. But the practice seems too widespread for this to be the whole reason.

I believe "pull into the intersection" was in NY manual back then, but it is no longer the case.