Virginia

[Alex4897]

That's great.  As somebody from NYC/NE I can tell you many many do take 81 to avoid 95 when going to the Carolina's and FL, this is just a fact.

You have a valid citation for this "fact"? "Because I said so" isn't valid.

Va needs a real solution, and this takes importance over SW VA, I don't believe in 'NOVA has gotten their spoils, time for us to get ours,' sorry no.  It's what is the biggest priority and that would be the economic engine and spine of Megalopolis.  Not fringe Appalachia.

"fringe Appalachia"? Again, FU. Smarter people than you don't agree with this northern sentiment and set out a few years ago to fix things (just like they did for Tidewater, which you seem to ignore as another important part of the Commonwealth). Both areas are paying an additional gas tax with the funds going to fix problems on I-81 and in Tidewater. Given your rants, it seems this is a waste of money and all those funds should accrue to your pet hang-up, fixing I-95 to your standards. Like I said before, it's a good thing you aren't in charge.

He's proven himself unwilling to research even the slightest amount of publicly available information himself on the Delaware thread, and unwilling to digest said information when other people find it for him multiple times. You won't get citations because he's stuck in a bubble of his own limited personal experiences.

[hbelkins]

Ask anybody from NY/NE going long distance to NC and points south, like FL.  They absolutely use I-81 to avoid the 95 BS in VA.

I asked my wife, who last year went from VT down to FL and back.  Took I-95.  Guess where she had problems (hint:  it *WASN'T* VA)

I'm going to guess she took 91 down to 95. So I'm also going to guess that her issues were either in the NYC metro area, or the two-lane sections in NC and SC.

[Dirt Roads]

That's great.  As somebody from NYC/NE I can tell you many many do take 81 to avoid 95 when going to the Carolina's and FL, this is just a fact.

You have a valid citation for this "fact"? "Because I said so" isn't valid.

Sorry to enter a heated argument.  Here's my take on the differential.

As I've mentioned many times on various AARoads threads, I have used I-81/I-78 as the primary means to travel from NoVa/Richmond/Durham -to- Newark/New York on numerous trips over the past 30 years or so.  I also commuted weekly from Northwest Virginia for more than two years back in the mid-1990s, and would use I-95 occasionally.  In many cases, it wasn't because I didn't want to travel on I-95.  But even on Sunday evenings on non-holiday/non-beach weeks, it was still better to use I-81/I-78.  Granted, after moving out of Northern Virginia then I was only 25 minutes away from I-81 (as compared to 50 minutes away from the Capital Beltway).

The main rationale that I was using was maximum trip time.  Freeflow, back then I-81/I-95 was only 25 minutes longer than Beltway/I-95 (and about 95 minutes longer than US-15/US-340/I-70/I-695/I-95).  But I always added 2 hours travel time on I-95 to account for accidents and lane closures, whereas I only needed to add 30 minutes using I-81/I-78.  Nowadays, the mileage is almost identical on all three routes and the time on I-81/I-78 is only 15 minutes longer.  No brainer.

From Richmond, I was more likely to take US-522/US-29/US-15 to Harrisburg, almost completely avoiding I-81.  But from here in Central Carolina, I-81/I-78 still works better.  Using I-95, Newark is roughly 490 miles from here and takes just a hair over 7 hours free flow.  Using US-29/I-64/I-81/I-78, Newark is more like 550 miles and takes 85 minutes longer.  But using my normal rationale, that's enough of a difference to avoid I-95 most of the time.  However, I do need to factor in the slow truck traffic along I-81 between Staunton and Winchester.

Anyhow, I am curious how this argument makes any difference in the argument whether VDOT should prioritize expenditures for I-95 over I-81.  It seems to me that, if indeed, some folks like me can use I-81 as a bypass for I-95 that the widening of I-81 to six lanes gets a boost.  (There's also a huge shoulder-chip problem when Virginia falls behind West Virginia and Maryland, but that is a different argument).

For the record, I'm not opposed to using I-95 for travel.  I commuted twice-a-week from here to Dulles for about 3 years and threaded the needle to catch the Shirley Reversible after it opened up to all traffic at 9AM (back then).  Also, when I was travelling to NYC after 9/11 it was less time to drive from here to BWI and take Amtrak up than it was to fly to LaGuardia (always 4 hours on the tarmac there, and sometimes 4 hours on the tarmac here).

[Dirt Roads]

Forgot to mention that I-77 has way more truck traffic nowadays.  Going northbound on Wednesday, I noticed that VDOT has removed the "No Truck Left Lane" restriction going up Fancy Gap grade.  Got hit with trucks running triple-wide numerous times (running 40MPH or less in the left lane), plus one time where the trucks were running 4-wide passing a 10MPH truck on the shoulder (fortunately, 55MPH in the left lane).  Slow trucks are also getting pretty aggressive, pulling into the left lane at 35MPH in dense traffic trying to get around slower trucks (in both directions).  Way worse than anything I've ever seen on I-81, but fortunately it's not as long of a distance.  Not sure why the problem goes away after entering West Virginia.

Running southbound today wasn't much different.  But I wasn't aware that there was so much beach traffic northbound on I-77 these days.  We passed five different congestion slowdowns with backups more than one mile, including the usual backup at Big Walker Mountain Tunnel that extended over three miles onto I-81 southbound (total backup almost 10 miles). 

[ARMOURERERIC]

Killing to no truck in the far left lane is absurd.  Who came up with that.  But yes, when shuttling between Hickory and Pittsburgh, I note a steady stream of trucks coming off of 74 on to 77 nb.

[Mapmikey]

Removing the restriction of no trucks in left lane when 3+ lanes and speed limit of 65+ requires changing state law.

Unless the law was just changed and the state's website is yet to be updated OR the speed limit (shown in 2019 GMSV as variable but 65 that day) is dropped below 65 mph, removing this restriction is illegal.

Note that a 2009 study recommended ditching this law but as best I can tell the study did not address climbing lanes or I-77 at Fancy Gap specifically.

[Dirt Roads]

Removing the restriction of no trucks in left lane when 3+ lanes and speed limit of 65+ requires changing state law.

Unless the law was just changed and the state's website is yet to be updated OR the speed limit (shown in 2019 GMSV as variable but 65 that day) is dropped below 65 mph, removing this restriction is illegal.

Note that a 2009 study recommended ditching this law but as best I can tell the study did not address climbing lanes or I-77 at Fancy Gap specifically.

Wonder if they are using the technicality that speed limits on I-77 going up to Fancy Gap are variable (and not always set at 65MPH)?

[sprjus4]

^ Are we also sure that sign simply was temporarily removed from being hit, knocked over, etc. and simply hadn't been put back?

[Dirt Roads]

^ Are we also sure that sign simply was temporarily removed from being hit, knocked over, etc. and simply hadn't been put back?

Not 100% sure, but the trucks were triple-wide as soon as the Truck Climbing Lane started and that got me looking for "No Trucks Left Lane" signs all the rest of the way up.  It's been about 3 years since I had been up that way, but once-upon-a-time I recall seeing those signs about every mile or so.  Maybe someone here remembers.

[MASTERNC]

Quick check of GSV shows trucks in all 3 lanes back in late 2019 but shows the restriction signage only at the bottom of the hill.

[plain]

Browsing through some pics I saved and came across this, a photo of I-64 in Hampton. This is at LaSalle Ave (former VA 167). In the background the partial interchange with the Newport News Connector (now I-664) is visible. I forgot where I got this from (somewhere on the 'net) and I don't know what year this might have been taken but it's definitely pre-1980.



moto g(7) optimo (XT1952DL)

[froggie]

It's at some point after 1968.  The building in the bottom left corner (at the time a school, now part of the local YMCA) did not have the building/parking lot expansion as shown until after that year.

[Mapmikey]

The 1977 topo on historic aerials is also a photo and the building is not on it, so the photo is from between 1977-82

[plain]

The amount of traffic and the fact that I-664 hadn't started construction yet also have me thinking sometime in the 1970's. Now that I think about it, I've seen another angle of that construction somewhere, I'll try and dig it up.

[Mapmikey]

Route changes coming:


2.  A 2019 General Assembly Act (to facilitate pedestrian safety at the seat of government) requires the CTB to add to the primary system:

• Bank St from 9th to 14th
• 10th from Main to Bank
• 12th from Main to Bank
• Governor St from Main to Bank

It did not indicate in the presentation (pg. 6 at http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/2019/oct/ctb_workshop_meeting_oct_2019.pdf) what the designation would be.  Good chance it becomes part of existing VA 318 which serves the state capitol already.  These segments will be connected to the rest of the primary system because Main St is part of US 60/VA 147.

The CTB did add these segments to the primary highway system today. They did not specify a route designation.

The arcgis site confirms these street additions are part of VA 318

[WillWeaverRVA]

Route changes coming:


2.  A 2019 General Assembly Act (to facilitate pedestrian safety at the seat of government) requires the CTB to add to the primary system:

• Bank St from 9th to 14th
• 10th from Main to Bank
• 12th from Main to Bank
• Governor St from Main to Bank

It did not indicate in the presentation (pg. 6 at http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/2019/oct/ctb_workshop_meeting_oct_2019.pdf) what the designation would be.  Good chance it becomes part of existing VA 318 which serves the state capitol already.  These segments will be connected to the rest of the primary system because Main St is part of US 60/VA 147.

The CTB did add these segments to the primary highway system today. They did not specify a route designation.

The arcgis site confirms these street additions are part of VA 318

Interestingly, this map also shows US 250 ending at 23rd St (in an overlap with "Urban Road 60", which extends from US 60 along 21st St, then to Broad St, then running along Government Rd back to US 60).

The map also shows eastbound US 33 turning off Broad onto Hancock and ending at Leigh (VA 33), while westbound VA 33 turns off Leigh onto Harrison to end at Broad. There is a note on the US 33 segment on Hancock saying "cleaned gaps/conflicts".

[D-Dey65]

I think one's origin/destination matters as well as one being willing to spend more hours bypassing than they would just staying on I-95.

NC is a big place.  Starting off in the Outer Banks and heading out to I-81 is pretty severe.

Makes sense to me. There have been very few times I felt I needed to take anything but I-95 (with the exception of some nearby US Routes, not to mention I-295 and the New Jersey Turnpike) to get to the New York Tri-State Area from Florida. The one time I was even on I-81 to bypass I-95 was at the recommendation from a friend of my father's, who lived in Atlanta at the time. We took I-75 into Georgia, leaving only at Macon for I-475. then took I-285 to I-85 in the Atlanta Metro Area. From there we went up I-85 to I-77 and finally to I-81. Our way to NYC from there was I-80 to I-95 in Teaneck. It was a longer way around, but we saw some interesting sites along the way. As far as I'm concerned, the one reason I'd even want to go to I-81 in Virginia would be to go to the Virginia Museum of Transportation.

[D-Dey65]

Anyway. I don't remember whether I mentioned this in the past, but I drove through Northern Virginia on my return trip from the November 2021 vacation to NYC. The reason I did this was because I wanted some contemporary pictures of the US 1 Occoquan River Bridges for Wikimedia Commons:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:U.S._Route_1_Occoquan_River_Bridges
Until I added those contemporary photos to the commons, the only pictures available were black and white pics from The Library of Virginia in the aftermath of Hurricane Agnes in 1972. More contemporary pics are still needed.

[Dirt Roads]

I think one's origin/destination matters as well as one being willing to spend more hours bypassing than they would just staying on I-95.

NC is a big place.  Starting off in the Outer Banks and heading out to I-81 is pretty severe.

But then you have several other options to avoid much of I-95, such as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel (US-13) or the Coleman Bridge (US-17) to get to the Nice Bridge (US-301).  Of course, when I lived in Virginia (two different times, Richmond and NoVa) I took a number of alternative routes to the Outer Banks (but we were trying to avoid I-64 more than we were trying to avoid I-95).  Anywhoosit, all of this discussion is proving both that I-95 is worth avoiding sometimes and also that VDOT has a captive audience of out-of-state drivers that are going to continue to use I-95 regardless of whether most of the route is limited to only three lanes in one direction at certain times.

[plain]

Here's that picture of the I-664 interchange construction I mentioned.



moto g(7) optimo (XT1952DL)

[WillWeaverRVA]

Some more observations from the VDOT ArcGIS map:

- US 60 is correctly shown as ending at Rudee Inlet

- US 258 and VA 143 are shown as running concurrently on McNair Dr on Fort Monroe

- VA 351 is shown as ending one block past VA 169 at 2nd Street in Hampton

- VA 321 is shown as ending at VA 199 and becoming SR 5000 at that point rather than at SR 613

- VA 281 is correctly shown on Airport Dr from VA 895 to Charles City Rd (but VDOT won't fix the signs as they say Henrico County has to do it)

- VA 2 is shown as ending at VA 3 BUSINESS in Fredericksburg

- VA 228 appears to have been rerouted onto Herndon Pkwy rather than passing through downtown Herndon

- VDOT continues the VA 90005 designation for the portion of George Washington Memorial Pkwy that enters DC

- VA 244 is shown as truncated to the Fairfax-Arlington line, which is correct, except VDOT hasn't removed any VA 244 postings from within Arlington County (based on Sept 2021 GSV)

- VA 7 and VA 236 are shown as ending at VA 400/VA 90005 in Alexandria

[Mapmikey]

It also shows a small disconnected piece of VA 244 at the eastern VA 27 interchange.

Oddly, despite being truncated, VA 237 is still shown all the way to US 50.

Leonard Sandridge Rd in Charlottesville is shown as part of VA 302.

The weird VA 317 in Staunton is not shown, but the odd VA 333 piece that goes under I-81 is on there.

It also has old US 58 ALT through Dryden as US 58 Business (GMSV is ancient and shows OLD US 58 postings at both ends)

[1995hoo]

....

Leonard Sandridge Rd in Charlottesville is shown as part of VA 302.

....

That seems like it would be correct. Isn't VA-302 the number assigned to all VDOT-maintained on-Grounds roads at UVA? Sandridge is located on the North Grounds (it was originally named the "North Grounds Connector Road").

[WillWeaverRVA]

....

Leonard Sandridge Rd in Charlottesville is shown as part of VA 302.

....

That seems like it would be correct. Isn't VA-302 the number assigned to all VDOT-maintained on-Grounds roads at UVA? Sandridge is located on the North Grounds (it was originally named the "North Grounds Connector Road").

Yeah, that is correct. It probably got added to the VA 302 network at some point.

Interestingly, over at UVA's rival in Blacksburg, the routes haven't been updated to reflect the new US 460/Southgate Drive interchange, but I assume the realigned Southgate Drive is still part of VA 314.

[Mapmikey]

....

Leonard Sandridge Rd in Charlottesville is shown as part of VA 302.

....

That seems like it would be correct. Isn't VA-302 the number assigned to all VDOT-maintained on-Grounds roads at UVA? Sandridge is located on the North Grounds (it was originally named the "North Grounds Connector Road").

Yes, but the trick is knowing which roads on an institution's property is VDOT maintained or not, as not every road would be.

Unrelated:  I-74 is NOT assigned to the I-77 segment south of I-81 per the arcgis.  it is possible nobody at VDOT remembers they did this in 1996.