What is "The South?"

[CoreySamson]

I find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.

[JayhawkCO]

That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.

It's fine if that region is "Not the South"'.

[Duke87]

So it doesn't look like anyone has yet brought up the 40-60 rule and the 81-83 rule.

In short, those rules go like this:
- Anything north of US 40 is wholly northern. Anything south of US 60 is wholly southern. Anything in between the two has elements of both and is a transition zone
- Anything east of US 81 is wholly eastern. Anything west of US 83 is wholly western. Anything in between the two has elements of both and is a transition zone.

Since when people say "The South" they're referring to what is geographically the southeast, this gives us US 60 and US 81 as soft borders of The South. I will note the image in the OP reasonably approximates US 60 as the drawn northern border. And while it doesn't approximate US 81, the 81-83 rule itself admittedly starts to break down south of US 80 (I-20) and is completely invalid south of US 90. South Texas is really just its own thing, not eastern, western, or southern.

[US 89]

US 81 is way too far west even north of US 80. The eastern parts of Oklahoma and Texas are more Southern, but the cities are honestly their own thing. Dallas is kind of a mix of Southwest and Midwest. Oklahoma City and Tulsa are mixes of that and Midwest. I've been to all three cities multiple times and there isn't really much of a Southern element in any of them.

If you want a road to serve as the western boundary for the South, US 69 or US 59 would probably be better choices.

[roadman65]

I know Van Buren, AR I heard the Braums Dairy Store employee talk real southern when I patronized it in 2016, so my guess is US 59 would be the line or extent from the east.

[Scott5114]

I don't really know that accent really should factor into it at all. I'm sure some of you would say I have an accent (I feel like I don't have much of one, but nobody ever thinks they have an accent) and yet I'm about as far from culturally Southern as you can get.

[Roadgeekteen]

I find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.

Maryland was not part of the confederacy

[J N Winkler]

I find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.

For me it's not the Confederacy so much as all of the places (including border states and parts of territories that later joined the Union) where Black slavery was legal in 1861.  (BTW, Wikipedia suggests Delaware was considered a border state despite its not actually bordering any part of the Confederacy.)

The Union was much larger geographically than the Confederacy--one reason the latter lost the Civil War--and consisted of two noncontiguous blocks of states.

[US 41]

Maybe 100 years ago Maryland and Delaware would be considered southern, but today I'd consider them solidly Northeastern. Politically and culturally they are more similar to New Jersey than any southern state. Also every state in the northeast region is tiny except for New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.

Honestly the Potomac River / Chesapeake Bay and the Ohio River are good natural boundaries for separating the north (NE and MW) and the south.

[webny99]

What about Kentucky?

It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.

See above.

In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.

[NWI_Irish96]

Maybe 100 years ago Maryland and Delaware would be considered southern, but today I'd consider them solidly Northeastern. Politically and culturally they are more similar to New Jersey than any southern state. Also every state in the northeast region is tiny except for New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.

Honestly the Potomac River / Chesapeake Bay and the Ohio River are good natural boundaries for separating the north (NE and MW) and the south.

So back in 2005-06 I worked in PG County, and there was a big culture clash going on to the south in Charles, Calvert and St. Mary's counties with DC commuters moving in amongst the long time culturally southern residents.

[dvferyance]

What about Kentucky?

It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.

See above.

In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.

Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

What about Kentucky?

It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.

See above.

In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.

Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.

Culturally it's much more Appalachian than the rest of Ohio. It has nothing to do with geography.

[hbelkins]

What about Kentucky?

It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.

See above.

In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.

Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.

Culturally it's much more Appalachian than the rest of Ohio. It has nothing to do with geography.

In a sense, the same could also be said of the Cincinnati-Dayton corridor, given the number of transplanted Appalachians who live there. See J.D. Vance's "Hillbilly Elegy" for details. Vance's grandparents moved to Middletown, Ohio, from Breathitt County, Ky., yet still maintained a lot of their Appalachian customs, as did many of the others who moved from areas to the south.

But having said, that, I would not necessarily consider Cincinnati "southern," but I certainly would Portsmouth, Ironton, and Gallipolis. Marietta, however, gives off more of a "rust belt" vibe than southern.

[Dirt Roads]

What about Kentucky?

It's like an in between, as it's northern end touches the Great Lakes States of IL, IN, and OH but borders TN on its south end.

In short, the parts of IL, IN, and OH that it borders are also very southern. So yeah, it's part of the South.

Southern Ohio is way too far north to be the south. The northern edge of Ohio is Lake Erie which if course on the other side is Canada.

Culturally it's much more Appalachian than the rest of Ohio. It has nothing to do with geography.

In a sense, the same could also be said of the Cincinnati-Dayton corridor, given the number of transplanted Appalachians who live there. See J.D. Vance's "Hillbilly Elegy" for details. Vance's grandparents moved to Middletown, Ohio, from Breathitt County, Ky., yet still maintained a lot of their Appalachian customs, as did many of the others who moved from areas to the south.

But having said, that, I would not necessarily consider Cincinnati "southern," but I certainly would Portsmouth, Ironton, and Gallipolis. Marietta, however, gives off more of a "rust belt" vibe than southern.

I've got a number of relatives in Southeastern Ohio, and other than the part that they are *from West Virginia* they certainly don't consider themselves to be Southerners.  But quite frankly, I think that they didn't consider themselves to Southerners when they were *from West Virginia* either.  And although some of them live in one of poorest sections of Appalachia, they don't think of themselves living in Appalachia anymore now that they are in Ohio.

The food is different in Southeastern Ohio as well.  To be honest, you can't tell much difference between the local food in Roane County, West Virginia as compared to the local food next door to us in Alamance County, North Carolina.  Except that they serve sauerkraut in Roane County (as a Germanic addition to their Scots-Irish roots), whereas they serve Red Slaw in Alamance County (as a Germanic addition to their Scottish roots).  Both go equally well with pork.  And the folks over in Alamance County completely get it when I break into my full-bore Appalachian dialect (which drives my wife crazy).

[Ted$8roadFan]

From New England, anything south of the Mason-Dixon Line could reasonably be considered southern, although the differences are significant.

Maryland/DC, Delaware, Northern Virginia and eastern West Virginia are more mid-Atlantic. The rest of West Virginia, the western parts of Virginia and North Carolina, the eastern portions of Kentucky and Tennessee and the upstate/northern parts of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi are Southern Appalachian. The rest of the southeast (including Florida north of Ocala and east Texas) are the Deep South. Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas are also mostly southern. Parts of nearby states, such as Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Oklahoma have southern-adjacent areas (literally and figuratively) but those states as a whole aren't southern. 

[achilles765]

From a historical perspective, the South would be anything below the Mason-Dixon Line and the Ohio River. But of course there are some exceptions to this, as FL doesn't have the same feel as its neighboring states, with older Northerners migrating there by the thousands. The most Southern place in TX is Houston, and even that is a tough nut to crack, with its burgeoning Latino population. FWIW, Cincinnati, OH can make its case as the southernmost Northern city, seeing that it borders KY, a southern state.

I live in Houston. I don't know if bourgeoning is the right word. Hispanic/Latino people are a sizable majority here. Like 44%. Non-Hispanic whites are only 24%. Though we are a famously and noticeable diverse place with people from all over the world, Hispanic/Latino people are by far the majority. Its one of my favorite things about living in Houston.

[mariethefoxy]

Any state part of of the confederacy, Deep South would be Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee South Carolina, and North Carolina

[kphoger]

I only now hopped into this thread, because I knew it would be a doozy.

But I agree with the statement below, from the very first reply.

I would definitely include Richmond in the South.  Ex-in-laws from there, and there was no way they could not be considered southern.

[kphoger]

Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81

As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this.  Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.

For what it's worth, US-50 is the approximate dividing line across Illinois between sweet tea and unsweet tea.

[Dirt Roads]

Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81

As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this.  Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.

For what it's worth, US-50 is the approximate dividing line across Illinois between sweet tea and unsweet tea.

And US-30 is the approximate dividing line in West Virginia.   

[kphoger]

I'm a truck driver and here's my verdict.

100% Southern: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, North and South Carolina

Mostly Southern: Virginia

Partially Southern: Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida

Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri

Remove all the tourists from Branson, and it's indistinguishable from Arkansas.

[MikieTimT]

I'm a truck driver and here's my verdict.

100% Southern: Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, North and South Carolina

Mostly Southern: Virginia

Partially Southern: Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida

Wannabe Southern: West Virginia, southern Missouri

Remove all the tourists from Branson, and it's indistinguishable from Arkansas.

Even Table Rock Lake, the entire reason for Branson's existence, is managed by the Little Rock USACE.  So, yeah, Branson is pretty much Eureka Springs, AR with bigger shows, more tourists, and a bigger lake with less Victorian housing.

[MikieTimT]

Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81

As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this.  Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.

For what it's worth, US-50 is the approximate dividing line across Illinois between sweet tea and unsweet tea.

And then in Florida, you get south of the panhandle, and pretty much get back into unsweet tea.  Another reason that only the panhandle of Florida is really influenced by its Deep South neighbors while the rest is so chock full of transplants, that it doesn't fit with anywhere else.

[TXtoNJ]

I find it interesting that a lot of people equate all of the former confederate states with the south. If I did the same with the Union states and classified all of them under one region that would be kind of silly. That's a bit how I feel putting Texas and Maryland in the same region.

The defining quality of the Confederacy was the plantation slavery economy, promoted by the humid subtropical climate that all Southern states share. The remaining Union states did not have anything like this in common.