NYC Roads

[SignBridge]

Vdeane, you might be right. Prior to the mid 1970's RTOR in NYS was allowed only where permitted by RORAS sign.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

I saw this side-by-side signal in Queens with the left turn arrows on the right side! Classic janky NYCDOT install.

[SidS1045]

How would the legislation enabling NYC to ban it originate in the 30s?

As for how, I can't answer that.  I remember reading about it in a biography of LaGuardia.

[Duke87]

IIRC it is a state law, worded so as to prohibit right-turn-on-red unless a sign is posted permitting it, in cities of over one million population.  It was enacted in the 1930's at the request of the city council and Mayor LaGuardia and is in the state's drivers manual.

I thought RTOR originated in the 70s oil crisis and before then was banned everywhere.  How would the legislation enabling NYC to ban it originate in the 30s?

Because the actual history of RTOR is more complex and nuanced than that. This old USDOT report corroborates this story about NYC banning it in the 1930s.

From PDF pages 16 and 17:

Although California is credited with the earliest significant experience with RTOR, it is interesting that permissive RTOR was actually adopted much earlier in New York City. Permissive RTOR was part of the City's traffic regulations beginning in 1924 and was practiced "...in the teens when manually operated semaphores were used to direct traffic" (Hochstein, 1981). However, New York abandoned the practice in 1937

It should also be noted that while the oil crises were what motivated RTOR's ubiquity, it was already legal in 13 states at the beginning of 1973. Another helpful citation for this:

RTOR was a well known though not universal practice in the United States before 1973, but received a considerable boost throughout the country during the period from 1973 through 1976 largely due to the Arab oil embargo and a heightened awareness of energy conservation on a national level. California was the first state to enact a generally-permissive RTOR law in 1947. Between 1947 and 1972, another 12 states enacted such RTOR laws. These were Utah and Oregon (1951); Arizona (1953); Nevada and Washington (1957), Alaska, Colorado, and Florida (1969); Minnesota and New Mexico (1971); and Hawaii and Nebraska (1972).

[crispy93]

I drove up the Hutch yesterday and the new exit numbers are in place in the Bronx. The Westchester ones haven't been done yet but I see new sign posts. Now R11 needs to put up proper mile markers in order for the new exit numbers to be useful. Well, theoretically; no one really goes by exit number in NYC. I'm baffled at how mile markers just don't exist south of Yonkers, though the short part of the New England Thruway in the Bronx has "NET" mile markers that have nothing to do with I-95's mileage.

[storm2k]

I drove up the Hutch yesterday and the new exit numbers are in place in the Bronx. The Westchester ones haven't been done yet but I see new sign posts. Now R11 needs to put up proper mile markers in order for the new exit numbers to be useful. Well, theoretically; no one really goes by exit number in NYC. I'm baffled at how mile markers just don't exist south of Yonkers, though the short part of the New England Thruway in the Bronx has "NET" mile markers that have nothing to do with I-95's mileage.

NYSTA has traditionally been the one agency that is consistent with actual mile markers, but they're entirely for the Thruway system and not related to whatever interstate might be signed on that route. This is why 87's mileage resets three times on its route.

I don't know if we'll ever get universal EMMs from NYSDOT. Some regions are doing them more (saw them pretty consistently on 17 today), but it seems to be on a region by region basis. The only consistent thing will ever likely be NYSDOT's reference markers.

[bluecountry]

Why is the FDR & HRD so bad now, pretty much southbound is bad until the lower east side all day; northbound bad by 3 PM.

[mariethefoxy]

Why is the FDR & HRD so bad now, pretty much southbound is bad until the lower east side all day; northbound bad by 3 PM.

1) Work from home people going out in the afternoon to shop and stuff

2) The Subway becoming such a crime nightmare again people are driving more.

[The Ghostbuster]

Since most New York City roadways are constrained, and the prospect of widening any of them without massive right-of-way impacts is impossible, the city is pretty much screwed. Outside of adding congestion pricing to all expressways and parkways within the city, I'm not sure what else can be done to relieve New York's congestion. Forget trying to get people to ditch their cars; that's been tried nationwide since the freeway revolts, and in my experience, it has been a dismal failure.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ pricing the poor out of their cars via "congestion pricing"  will be an equal failure. The solution is more infrastructure.

[fmendes]

Since most New York City roadways are constrained, and the prospect of widening any of them without massive right-of-way impacts is impossible, the city is pretty much screwed. Outside of adding congestion pricing to all expressways and parkways within the city, I'm not sure what else can be done to relieve New York's congestion. Forget trying to get people to ditch their cars; that's been tried nationwide since the freeway revolts, and in my experience, it has been a dismal failure.

the city should stop putting traffic signals on the ramps that are freeflowing because it bunches cars up and theres no gap in traffic one big improvement they should close the loop ramp on the LIE at Woodhaven Boulavard to foster free flowing traffic because it interferes with the mainline LIE and install a traffic signal to allow cars to make left turns on WB LIE and install a 2 lane ramp meter to break up traffic platoons

[crispy93]

Since most New York City roadways are constrained, and the prospect of widening any of them without massive right-of-way impacts is impossible, the city is pretty much screwed. Outside of adding congestion pricing to all expressways and parkways within the city, I'm not sure what else can be done to relieve New York's congestion. Forget trying to get people to ditch their cars; that's been tried nationwide since the freeway revolts, and in my experience, it has been a dismal failure.

the city should stop putting traffic signals on the ramps that are freeflowing because it bunches cars up and theres no gap in traffic one big improvement they should close the loop ramp on the LIE at Woodhaven Boulavard to foster free flowing traffic because it interferes with the mainline LIE and install a traffic signal to allow cars to make left turns on WB LIE and install a 2 lane ramp meter to break up traffic platoons

What're everyone's thoughts on how NYCDOT puts a yield sign on all freeway entrances, even where there is a generous acceleration lane? Does it confuse drivers, who then slow down anticipating a short merge area? NYCDOT tends to put them at the end of the ramp, once you've run out of room. Or is it necessary to remind entering drivers to yield since NYC drivers are awful? Eg: https://goo.gl/maps/bG24zERYhyGLY4776

[paul02474]

What're everyone's thoughts on how NYCDOT puts a yield sign on all freeway entrances, even where there is a generous acceleration lane? Does it confuse drivers, who then slow down anticipating a short merge area? NYCDOT tends to put them at the end of the ramp, once you've run out of room. Or is it necessary to remind entering drivers to yield since NYC drivers are awful? Eg: https://goo.gl/maps/bG24zERYhyGLY4776

Yield signs are just part of the scenery; drivers eyes are trained on the traffic on the highway and not the sign. That said, the sign is exists to sign legal responsibility should a vehicle entering the highway collide with a vehicle on the highway.

[noelbotevera]

Since most New York City roadways are constrained, and the prospect of widening any of them without massive right-of-way impacts is impossible, the city is pretty much screwed. Outside of adding congestion pricing to all expressways and parkways within the city, I'm not sure what else can be done to relieve New York's congestion. Forget trying to get people to ditch their cars; that's been tried nationwide since the freeway revolts, and in my experience, it has been a dismal failure.

...honestly, I think New York should've continued investing in the subway. The Second System would've made Queens less of a transit nightmare than it is now (you're telling me the farthest subway line (not on the Rockaways) stops four miles short of Nassau in Jamaica?) and also the Bronx. The city was smoking something with the Grand Concourse (B/D) line, because it is a block away from the Jerome Avenue (4) line...especially when you learn that a line was planned along 3rd Avenue.

But alas, history is history and Robert Moses crusaded against the subways. Building new infrastructure that isn't skyscrapers, parks, or museums is probably impossible at this point.

[PastTense]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

[noelbotevera]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

Richer, sure, but if you can find me popular support for roads then I can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

[Rothman]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

The lasting effects of his immense influence and the tremendous costs behind needed corrections are obvious to this day.  Therefore, you cannot simply stop blaming him.

[Plutonic Panda]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

The lasting effects of his immense influence and the tremendous costs behind needed corrections are obvious to this day.  Therefore, you cannot simply stop blaming him.

Other than his racism Robert Moses did some good with the freeways he planned. I just wish Midtown Freeway would have been built.

NYCs constrained roads and freeways are leading to serious problems and yet we have people wanting to remove them and scoff at any proposal to actually improve the network. Of course more subways should be built as well but we shouldn't have proposals like this: https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/06/01/new-york-city-department-of-transportation-truck-routes-brooklyn-third-avenue-bay-ridge-sunset-park/

[fmendes]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

The lasting effects of his immense influence and the tremendous costs behind needed corrections are obvious to this day.  Therefore, you cannot simply stop blaming him.

Other than his racism Robert Moses did some good with the freeways he planned. I just wish Midtown Freeway would have been built.

NYCs constrained roads and freeways are leading to serious problems and yet we have people wanting to remove them and scoff at any proposal to actually improve the network. Of course more subways should be built as well but we shouldn't have proposals like this: https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/06/01/new-york-city-department-of-transportation-truck-routes-brooklyn-third-avenue-bay-ridge-sunset-park/

a tunnel needs to be built from the midtown tunnel to the lincoln tunnel theres ur midtown expressway

[Plutonic Panda]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

The lasting effects of his immense influence and the tremendous costs behind needed corrections are obvious to this day.  Therefore, you cannot simply stop blaming him.

Other than his racism Robert Moses did some good with the freeways he planned. I just wish Midtown Freeway would have been built.

NYCs constrained roads and freeways are leading to serious problems and yet we have people wanting to remove them and scoff at any proposal to actually improve the network. Of course more subways should be built as well but we shouldn't have proposals like this: https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/06/01/new-york-city-department-of-transportation-truck-routes-brooklyn-third-avenue-bay-ridge-sunset-park/

a tunnel needs to be built from the midtown tunnel to the lincoln tunnel theres ur midtown expressway

Yes tunnels would be ideal. Sydney Australia is embarking on a large scale freeway tunnel network. No reason we can't do it here.

[fmendes]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

The lasting effects of his immense influence and the tremendous costs behind needed corrections are obvious to this day.  Therefore, you cannot simply stop blaming him.

Other than his racism Robert Moses did some good with the freeways he planned. I just wish Midtown Freeway would have been built.

NYCs constrained roads and freeways are leading to serious problems and yet we have people wanting to remove them and scoff at any proposal to actually improve the network. Of course more subways should be built as well but we shouldn't have proposals like this: https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/06/01/new-york-city-department-of-transportation-truck-routes-brooklyn-third-avenue-bay-ridge-sunset-park/

a tunnel needs to be built from the midtown tunnel to the lincoln tunnel theres ur midtown expressway

Yes tunnels would be ideal. Sydney Australia is embarking on a large scale freeway tunnel network. No reason we can't do it here.

Exactly like a floating tunnel or something along those lines for some of these i think it can be done personally i think the BQE could be built with a floating tunnel along the Waterfront

[Alps]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

Richer, sure, but if you can find me popular support for roads then I can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

find me a bridge entirely in Brooklyn

[SignBridge]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

Richer, sure, but if you can find me popular support for roads then I can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

find me a bridge entirely in Brooklyn

There are several small bridges on the Belt Parkway that are only in Brooklyn.

[Roadgeekteen]

"Robert Moses crusaded against the subways"

It's time to quit blaming Robert Moses. It's been more than 55 years since he was in a position of power. And the New York of today is vastly richer than it was in his day.

Richer, sure, but if you can find me popular support for roads then I can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

find me a bridge entirely in Brooklyn

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6938232,-73.9988344,3a,75y,290.98h,90.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgYvv_h2xWWGQBB7d1DzYWw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[crispy93]

I drove up the Hutch yesterday and the new exit numbers are in place in the Bronx. The Westchester ones haven't been done yet but I see new sign posts. Now R11 needs to put up proper mile markers in order for the new exit numbers to be useful. Well, theoretically; no one really goes by exit number in NYC. I'm baffled at how mile markers just don't exist south of Yonkers, though the short part of the New England Thruway in the Bronx has "NET" mile markers that have nothing to do with I-95's mileage.

NYSTA has traditionally been the one agency that is consistent with actual mile markers, but they're entirely for the Thruway system and not related to whatever interstate might be signed on that route. This is why 87's mileage resets three times on its route.

I don't know if we'll ever get universal EMMs from NYSDOT. Some regions are doing them more (saw them pretty consistently on 17 today), but it seems to be on a region by region basis. The only consistent thing will ever likely be NYSDOT's reference markers.

I emailed the information officer regarding the Hutch's mile markers, and she said they will be installed in the Bronx. Let's see what happens. I drove down to the city last weekend and the Hutch at the Cross-County was totally closed, so I was wondering if they were doing the overhead signs through that stretch.