AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

New rules to ensure post quality. See this thread for details.

Author Topic: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway  (Read 16495 times)

MaxConcrete

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 800
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Last Login: Today at 02:51:28 PM
I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« on: August 08, 2019, 12:02:35 AM »

The project recently received a $125 million INFRA grant
https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/grants/344906/fy2019-infra-fact-sheets.pdf
https://www.enr.com/articles/47261-us-dot-picks-20-winners-to-split-856-million-in-new-infra-grant-round

My question is: why do the I-10 Bayway bridges need to be replaced? I remember seeing them built when I was a kid on a family vacation to Pensacola. That was around 1978, so the bridges are not particularly old. I also drove across it last month and did not notice any imminent need for replacement. I'm thinking maybe it needs to be widened to 3x3, and the existing structure does not have enough remaining life to justify widening.

If Alabama can round up the rest of the money to get this built, it will be a very impressive bridge with a 215-foot vertical clearance. Which leads to my next question: is 3x3 going to be sufficient for the bridge? In Houston, the new Beltway 8 ship channel bridge under construction is 4x4, the existing SH 146 Baytown bridge is 4x4, and the existing Loop 610 bridge is 5x5.


froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12034
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: Today at 08:01:53 AM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 07:23:20 AM »

Quote
My question is: why do the I-10 Bayway bridges need to be replaced?

I believe the existing bridges are below the 100-year storm surge level.  They want to fix that.

Quote
is 3x3 going to be sufficient for the bridge?

The existing I-10 Wallace Tunnel will remain, so it'll be a net 5x5 in freeway capacity across the river.  You mentioned the Baytown Bridge as an example...but that project took out the former tunnel instead of adding to it.
Logged

bicyclehazard

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 30
  • Have forced over 200 governments to obey road laws

  • Age: 61
  • Location: on the road
  • Last Login: August 28, 2019, 08:42:18 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2019, 08:42:18 PM »

Gov Ivey says the project is dead and she has canceled all future meetings on the project. I of course have always had my own agenda on the project. I didn't care what was done as long as a route was maintained across the bay for non motorized traffic.
Logged

mvak36

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1094
  • Last Login: Today at 05:53:10 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2019, 10:00:15 PM »

Gov Ivey says the project is dead and she has canceled all future meetings on the project. I of course have always had my own agenda on the project. I didn't care what was done as long as a route was maintained across the bay for non motorized traffic.

So they're not gonna be getting that 125 million INFRA grant they just won?

Is it really dead or they just can't build it with tolls?
Logged
Counties: Counties visited
Travel Mapping: Summary

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2277
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 04:20:58 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2019, 12:01:07 AM »

I think the entire project is back to square one. This is a good thing, IMO as the toll component was outrageous. Though I do support toll roads in some cases, I am against tolling in many more and interstate tolls are no exception. I believe the interstates should have a blanket standard and no tolls should be part of that. Hopefully this project comes back bigger and better keeping the tunnel portion AND adding another bridge crossing further north as an additional bridge alternative should be had.
Logged

froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12034
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: Today at 08:01:53 AM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2019, 08:44:43 PM »

Well, Cameron...if you're so dead-set against Interstate tolls, how would you propose ALDOT pay for this?  Take from Birmingham/Montgomery projects?  That still wouldn't pay for the Bayway portion, let alone the bridge.
Logged

formulanone

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10039
  • Age: 47
  • Location: HSV
  • Last Login: Today at 03:59:05 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2019, 09:03:15 PM »

The moral of the story is that you shouldn't announce a $6 toll in a state where there aren't any other serious toll bridges and just one other Alabama toll road which gets shunpiked frequently. Set the bar low ($1-2, not the price of a meat-and-three lunch special) and then increase it as needed.

But the magic spacecake fairy declared it "dead" which means everything's just super right now! We'll just wait for the next Category 4-5 to immolate it and Alabama gets Federal funds to start anew.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 09:05:26 PM by formulanone »
Logged
Photos | Unprofessional driver on open course. Do attempt.

froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12034
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: Today at 08:01:53 AM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2019, 09:05:39 PM »

I've occasionally looked at ALDOT's finances from time to time over the years (having been stationed twice in neighboring Mississippi).  I would hazard a bet that the toll was proposed at $6 because the state lacks the capacity to put any meaningful state money into the project to make the toll lower**.  That the project was proposed as a P3 probably didn't help things any, either...


** - As an example of this, look at how long it took ALDOT to finish their part of Corridor X (I-22) compared to Mississippi.  Mississippi had a full US 78 freeway (albeit not Interstate standard in some parts, especially New Albany) by 1994 because they dedicated a good chunk of state money for finishing the roadway.  Compare and contrast to Alabama, who overly relied on Federal highway funding and only got their section finished a couple years ago.  Heck, MDOT even beat them to having a full Interstate-grade roadway.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 09:07:47 PM by froggie »
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2277
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 04:20:58 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2019, 10:47:56 PM »

Well, Cameron...if you're so dead-set against Interstate tolls, how would you propose ALDOT pay for this?  Take from Birmingham/Montgomery projects?  That still wouldn't pay for the Bayway portion, let alone the bridge.
Same way Virginia paid for I-81... same way TxDOT paid for all of their projects previously touted as only possible with tolls yet now U/C toll free.
Logged

froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12034
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: Today at 08:01:53 AM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 07:32:39 AM »

From that statement, I can tell you don't understand Alabama politics when it comes to taxes.

Would it be nice to pay for it via taxes?  Sure.  Is that feasibly or politically possible in an anti-tax state such as Alabama?  No.  Especially considering you have other metropolitan areas in the state that are as large or larger than Mobile that would want their cut.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 07:35:56 AM by froggie »
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2277
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 04:20:58 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2019, 09:39:33 AM »

They did just raise their gas tax but I don’t know if it is enough to pay for this project.
Logged

formulanone

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10039
  • Age: 47
  • Location: HSV
  • Last Login: Today at 03:59:05 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2019, 09:51:10 AM »

I think one of the hopes was to get the non-locals to help pay for it. There's lots of trucks and those just passing through the 67 miles of I-10, to cover a good deal of the cost.

But I can see where those who have to make a commute from Baldwin and Mobile counties wouldn't like to bear that much of the cost, and even so, all revenue should only go to maintenance and projects in those two counties, not spread around the rest of the state.
Logged
Photos | Unprofessional driver on open course. Do attempt.

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2019, 10:36:58 PM »

Would it be nice to pay for it via taxes?  Sure.  Is that feasibly or politically possible in an anti-tax state such as Alabama? 

How many states are "anti-tax"?  IOW was all taxation eliminated?  Isn't that the literal meaning of "anti-tax"? 
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

RoadPelican

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 129
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Greensboro, NC
  • Last Login: November 26, 2021, 04:09:56 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2019, 11:23:02 PM »

Alabama for a Southern State has pretty high taxes, Sales Tax is around 9%, groceries are taxable too, Income Tax is 5%.

The only low taxes are gas and property tax, although I think you still have a pay an annual property on cars in Alabama.

There should be plenty of money to build a bridge in Mobile, the problem is a spending problem in local and county government.

Huntsville can spend half a billion upgrading there highway system, why can't Mobile?
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2019, 05:41:13 AM »

A $2.3 billion project for a bridge and approaches.  That is in the realm of where tolls are usually needed to help finance the project thru toll revenue bonds.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2277
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 04:20:58 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2019, 05:00:06 PM »

A $2.3 billion project for a bridge and approaches.  That is in the realm of where tolls are usually needed to help finance the project thru toll revenue bonds.
This is more than just the bridge. LA is building a billion plus dollar bridge and no tolls.
Logged

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7084
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:40:55 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2019, 05:40:24 PM »

A $2.3 billion project for a bridge and approaches.  That is in the realm of where tolls are usually needed to help finance the project thru toll revenue bonds.
VDOT is constructing a new one mile long 8-lane bridge, two 2-lane tunnels one mile long, and widening 5 miles of interstate from 4 to 8 lanes for $3.6 billion. Two free general purpose lanes and two HO/T lanes in each direction. $3.3 billion is tax dollar funded and $345 million is toll financed.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2019, 08:32:16 PM »

A $2.3 billion project for a bridge and approaches.  That is in the realm of where tolls are usually needed to help finance the project thru toll revenue bonds.
VDOT is constructing a new one mile long 8-lane bridge, two 2-lane tunnels one mile long, and widening 5 miles of interstate from 4 to 8 lanes for $3.6 billion. Two free general purpose lanes and two HO/T lanes in each direction. $3.3 billion is tax dollar funded and $345 million is toll financed.
Mobile metro population is 415 thousand, and Alabama population is 4.9 million.

Hampton Roads population is 1.7 million and Virginia population is 8.5 million.

Hampton Roads also has a regional overlay for sales and motor fuel taxation which functions similar to statewide sales and motor fuel taxation, but for that one region, and in addition to the statewide taxation.

That would have an effect on the funding base available.
 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 08:35:38 PM by Beltway »
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

paulthemapguy

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5751
  • nobody asked me

  • Age: 32
  • Location: Illinois
  • Last Login: Today at 12:25:33 AM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2019, 09:15:02 PM »

States like to institute tolls on highway segments that are highly used by out-of-state traffic.  If people in Alabama kept in mind that a toll on this bridge would draw heavily from non-Alabama users, they might advocate the idea of tolls a bit more.  You know, as opposed to funding it via in-state Alabama tax increase.
Logged
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My Shield Gallery, Sorted https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
Source Photos https://flic.kr/s/aHskFU42pF
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 345/424. Only 79 route markers remain!

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2019, 09:28:32 PM »

States like to institute tolls on highway segments that are highly used by out-of-state traffic.  If people in Alabama kept in mind that a toll on this bridge would draw heavily from non-Alabama users, they might advocate the idea of tolls a bit more.  You know, as opposed to funding it via in-state Alabama tax increase.
That makes sense, that the new I-10 will primarily be for thru traffic that passes thru the narrow neck of Alabama, while the existing I-10 get relegated to something like I-210 to be used primarily by local and regional traffic.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8495
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: September 12, 2021, 12:44:33 AM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2019, 09:48:09 PM »

With a bridge deck some 225-230 feet above the water, the bridge crossing could be sold as a tourist attraction:  pay the toll, enjoy the view!  :colorful:  But seriously, the point about starting with a $6 toll in that state, regardless of the math involved, might be a bit much and result in blowback (which has obviously already occurred to some extent).  If it were my decision, I'd find a "happy medium" -- maybe somewhere about $3-$4 to start with, and edge it up a quarter at a time over 8-10 years until an adequate return level is reached (hey, despite the pissing and moaning, it's worked out here by the Bay!).
Logged

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7084
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:40:55 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2019, 07:02:37 AM »

States like to institute tolls on highway segments that are highly used by out-of-state traffic.  If people in Alabama kept in mind that a toll on this bridge would draw heavily from non-Alabama users, they might advocate the idea of tolls a bit more.  You know, as opposed to funding it via in-state Alabama tax increase.
Part of the issue is that a significant amount of the traffic on this stretch of I-10 -is- local traffic. AADT counts jump from 35,000 - 40,000 up to nearly 80,000 over the existing viaducts and tunnels. They dwindle back down to 45,000 AADT at the Alabama / Mississippi state line, and that's also taking in account the long-distance traffic coming in from the north from I-65 South to I-10 West (and vice versa) which doesn't merge until west of the tunnel / viaduct complex. And it's also hard to say that the rural counts are all "long-distance traffic". Some of that traffic could easily be regional as well.
Logged

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7084
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:40:55 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2019, 07:06:55 AM »

A $2.3 billion project for a bridge and approaches.  That is in the realm of where tolls are usually needed to help finance the project thru toll revenue bonds.
VDOT is constructing a new one mile long 8-lane bridge, two 2-lane tunnels one mile long, and widening 5 miles of interstate from 4 to 8 lanes for $3.6 billion. Two free general purpose lanes and two HO/T lanes in each direction. $3.3 billion is tax dollar funded and $345 million is toll financed.
Mobile metro population is 415 thousand, and Alabama population is 4.9 million.

Hampton Roads population is 1.7 million and Virginia population is 8.5 million.

Hampton Roads also has a regional overlay for sales and motor fuel taxation which functions similar to statewide sales and motor fuel taxation, but for that one region, and in addition to the statewide taxation.

That would have an effect on the funding base available.
The point is is that it can be done if the proper tax increases are made. But obviously, there's opposition to that in Alabama, and also with tolling it seems. The ignorance of people annoys me... they want both low taxes and no tolls and also want a massive multi-billion dollar project completed. Something needs to happen to fund the project, and quite frankly I'd support an overall fuel tax increase enough to pay for the project and have it completed without tolling, very similar to I-81 in Virginia.
Logged

Beltway

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Roads to the Future

  • Location: Richmond, VA
  • Last Login: August 04, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2019, 07:59:42 AM »

The point is is that it can be done if the proper tax increases are made. But obviously, there's opposition to that in Alabama, and also with tolling it seems. The ignorance of people annoys me... they want both low taxes and no tolls and also want a massive multi-billion dollar project completed. Something needs to happen to fund the project, and quite frankly I'd support an overall fuel tax increase enough to pay for the project and have it completed without tolling, very similar to I-81 in Virginia.

Not sure that is the case, it might be more like finding the $13 billion to build the CBA 9 Hampton Road Third Crossing, looking at it on a population weighted basis.
Logged
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2277
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 04:20:58 PM
Re: I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2019, 08:47:57 AM »

A $2.3 billion project for a bridge and approaches.  That is in the realm of where tolls are usually needed to help finance the project thru toll revenue bonds.
VDOT is constructing a new one mile long 8-lane bridge, two 2-lane tunnels one mile long, and widening 5 miles of interstate from 4 to 8 lanes for $3.6 billion. Two free general purpose lanes and two HO/T lanes in each direction. $3.3 billion is tax dollar funded and $345 million is toll financed.
Mobile metro population is 415 thousand, and Alabama population is 4.9 million.

Hampton Roads population is 1.7 million and Virginia population is 8.5 million.

Hampton Roads also has a regional overlay for sales and motor fuel taxation which functions similar to statewide sales and motor fuel taxation, but for that one region, and in addition to the statewide taxation.

That would have an effect on the funding base available.
Always an excuse lol... Seriously though continuously narrowing down making Mobile some special case that is unique from other metros isn’t a good point. This area along the gulf is a mega region and not one to be underestimated. There are real traffic needs like other metros and other metros have found ways to do it without tolls: Alabama can too.

PS, Alabama is building(or was) a 5 billion dollar road with no tolls. You thank the feds for that and stopping it. That project has stalled but the point they just raised the gas tax, the feds need to start backing more projects up, and waiting until monies are found to do this project right with no tolls is better for everyone. This can be done as tons of other metros have billion dollar projects and no tolls.
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.