"No Speed Limit" Signs in the MUTCD

[michravera]

For a long time in California, "SPEED LIMIT XX" meant "PF SPEED LIMIT XX" and "MAXIMUM SPEED XX" meant "STATUTORY SPEED LIMIT XX". Sometime a few years ago, the distinction has been blurred. In California, Only 55 (for trucks and 2-lane undivided) and 65 and 70 MPH are statutory. Every other sign that you see is PF. There are default PF speed limits that are lower, but you will get cited for CVC 22350 ("Basic Speed Law"), if you violate them. There is a reason that most RADAR enforced limits give you a fairly generous cushion (often 15MPH) over the PF limit. Most RADAR enforcement takes place when the traffic cops have nothing better to do, so the weather is often good and the conditions are often good, so they want to avoid going to court over quibbles. As far as I know, on maximum speed limit RADAR, they only give you about 10% (5% for your equipment and 5% for theirs).

I thought the Maximum Speed signs were only put up because of the National Maximum Speed Law since there was a need to distinguish the fact that California's Basic Speed Law didn't apply. At least that's what I remember reading on Wikipedia. I assume that the signs that still say "Maximum Speed" were just leftovers from that, especially since most of them have overlay panels on the numbers which suggests that the limit was changed, and the ones that don't were probably carbon copy replacements.

Example with overlay panel: https://goo.gl/maps/2JYhJxaP2WBdEBwG7. This has even since been replaced with a standard speed limit sign: https://goo.gl/maps/zgfjvPhHM19AGZqEA.

I'm somewhat surprised the cops only give 10% on statutory speed limits given most drivers still seem to exceed them by 15 mph anyway, though I suppose that could be due to lack of enforcement as you allude to.

The term "Maximum Speed" is used in the CVC. The "Maximum Speed" signs predate the NMSL. There were "Maximum Speed 70" (with or without the "MPH") in the early 1970s for sure. They probably have existed since Edmund G. ("Pat") Brown, Sr's term of office (that's before Reagan). I believe that Pat was Governor when they raised the speed limit to 65 with some 70 on freeways. (Governor Goodnight may have raised the default to 65).

[Revive 755]

Apparently there is (was?) a Missouri version of the 'end speed zone' sign for temporary situations, which reads 'resume speed thank you'.

[Roadsguy]

Apparently there is (was?) a Missouri version of the 'end speed zone' sign for temporary situations, which reads 'resume speed thank you'.

TIL MoDOT runs a wiki...

[CovalenceSTU]

In Oregon there's a few signs that say "END XX MILE SPEED" or "END XX MPH SPEED ZONE". They imply no speed limit but iirc are the equivalent of a Speed Limit 55 sign.

[ipeters61]

In Oregon there's a few signs that say "END XX MILE SPEED" or "END XX MPH SPEED ZONE". They imply no speed limit but iirc are the equivalent of a Speed Limit 55 sign.

I just saw one in Delaware today, I'm seen them around the state before but never took a photo.  This is on Seaford Road south of Blades.  However, DelDOT's MUTCD has deprecated this (see page 30 of this document).  As this is a two-lane rural road, the statutory speed limit here is 50 MPH, not the "no speed limit" that this might imply.  Almost immediately after this sign, a Speed Limit 50 sign is posted.

[1995hoo]

^^^^^

I know of at least one "End 45 Mile Speed" sign in Virginia. It's on secondary route 624 in Warren County–we passed it on March 15 on our way home from Linden. Street View has a photo. The sign means the speed limit then defaults to 55. I was probably going faster than 55 even before this sign and my wife wasn't amused.

https://goo.gl/maps/ofGx2bWtanREmw1v9

[sprjus4]

^^^^^

I know of at least one "End 45 Mile Speed" sign in Virginia. It's on secondary route 624 in Warren County–we passed it on March 15 on our way home from Linden. Street View has a photo. The sign means the speed limit then defaults to 55. I was probably going faster than 55 even before this sign and my wife wasn't amused.

https://goo.gl/maps/ofGx2bWtanREmw1v9

Here's another find on Pitchkettle Rd in Suffolk, VA, about a mile off of US-58. Didn't realize they were posted in Virginia before, let alone Hampton Roads.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7605182,-76.6281813,3a,47.2y,337.57h,87.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEW0R85XiglUCb1hQM2d27g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

[1995hoo]

^^^^^

I know of at least one "End 45 Mile Speed" sign in Virginia. It's on secondary route 624 in Warren County–we passed it on March 15 on our way home from Linden. Street View has a photo. The sign means the speed limit then defaults to 55. I was probably going faster than 55 even before this sign and my wife wasn't amused.

https://goo.gl/maps/ofGx2bWtanREmw1v9

Here's another find on Pitchkettle Rd in Suffolk, VA, about a mile off of US-58. Didn't realize they were posted in Virginia before, let alone Hampton Roads.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7605182,-76.6281813,3a,47.2y,337.57h,87.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEW0R85XiglUCb1hQM2d27g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

There used to be an "End 65 Mile Speed" sign at the eastern end of the Dulles Greenway as you approached the toll plaza. It's been gone for some time now, and rightly so, IMO, because the speed limit drops to 35 due to the toll plaza, whereas an "End 65 Mile Speed" technically means it drops to 55 mph (not that most people on the road in Virginia would have any idea about that, of course!). Old Street View images don't show the old sign.

[cl94]

I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.

Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.

[Ketchup99]

I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.

Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.

I remember a couple two-lane roads in PA - can't remember where - where there's an "End Speed Limit 35" sign - seemingly leading to a 55 - with a 45 sign a couple minutes later. No 55 sign in sight - it's unclear if the zone between "End 35" and "Speed Limit 45" is 45 or 55. Generally I treat them as 55...

[1995hoo]

I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.

Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.

I don't believe Virginia uses that sign "extensively." In my observation over the years, they're quite unusual and normally a sign just tells you what the new speed limit is when it changes (e.g., you reach the end of a 45 zone and you see a normal "Speed Limit 55" sign).

I will admit I have not travelled much in far Southwest Virginia other than on I-81, so maybe they're more common there.

[jeffandnicole]

I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.

Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.

I remember a couple two-lane roads in PA - can't remember where - where there's an "End Speed Limit 35" sign - seemingly leading to a 55 - with a 45 sign a couple minutes later. No 55 sign in sight - it's unclear if the zone between "End 35" and "Speed Limit 45" is 45 or 55. Generally I treat them as 55...

PA is a default 55 state. While not actually signing it, they permit 55 without actually promoting 55, prior to the 45 zone.

[RobbieL2415]

Every state should be like CT:
- No municipality has the authority to set its own speed limit.  All speed limits are set by the DOT and based on engineering studies.

- There is a basic speed law for situations where road conditions or design may require a driver to slow below the posted speed limit.

- All public roads must have a posted, statutory speed limit.  There should be established a maximum posted speed limit that takes the place of any "safe" limit laws.  In CT it's 55 (except for limited-access roads, which may be 65).

-Advisory limits are not enforceable as prima facie but are under the basic speed law.

- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself.  Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log.  Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.

[US 89]

- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself.  Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log.  Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.

Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.

[kphoger]

Every state should be like CT:

- All public roads must have a posted, statutory speed limit.

I see little need to waste money on speed limit signs for, say, this road.

[cl94]

- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself.  Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log.  Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.

Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.

Yeah, if they try to enforce what's in the database over what's signed, it could get thrown out in court pretty easily.

[RobbieL2415]

- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself.  Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log.  Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.

Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.

I would argue that, yes. Once the change is made by OSTA, the prima facie speed limit is in effect.  Now would a law enforcement officer know that?  Probably not.  So if CONNDOT or the town forgets to take down an old sign on a road which the limit was increased and you get cited for speeding, bring it to court with the page from the official logbook with the new limit.

It actually says that OSTA may estsblish speed limits, so it's actually not required to.

[vdeane]

- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself.  Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log.  Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.

Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.

I would argue that, yes. Once the change is made by OSTA, the prima facie speed limit is in effect.  Now would a law enforcement officer know that?  Probably not.  So if CONNDOT or the town forgets to take down an old sign on a road which the limit was increased and you get cited for speeding, bring it to court with the page from the official logbook with the new limit.

It actually says that OSTA may estsblish speed limits, so it's actually not required to.

US 89 was probably thinking about it going the other way... speed limit was lowered but the sign wasn't changed, and the officer unforced the new, lower, limit.