Google Maps just fucking SUCKS now

[jakeroot]

For the record, the computer from which I'm typing this runs Windows 7 and Office 2007; I recently upgraded to 7 from XP in January 2017, and I really like both operating systems.  I've been using Office 2007 since 2014, and I really like both 03 and 07; I have no reason or desire to upgrade from this configuration anytime soon.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Consider upgrading to Windows 10 before Janauary 2020. Support for Windows 7 ends then, and you're creating a liability for yourself, and anyone else who might use your computer, by using an OS that isn't supported by security patches.

IMO, any OS that isn't supported by its creators should be considered "broke" for primary usage. Usage for historical purposes is different.

That would mean having used this perfectly good computer for only three years before getting rid of it 

It's perfectly good, until it's not.

Also consider that some people may not be able to afford getting a brand new computer with a brand new operating system every year or two when the new one comes out. 

All Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 licence keys work for Windows 10, making it essentially a free upgrade. The last person I know to pay for a new OS was my mother, who purchased Windows 7 to install over Vista back in 2009.

By the way, and I realise we're drifting from the topic at hand, is there ever going to be a "Windows 11"?

Windows 10 was the last major "new" OS. There will not be a Windows 11. Windows is now a service. Microsoft intends to do major updates to their OS twice a year, instead of huge leaps every three years. The most recent update was Redstone 4, released in April.

Probably. Mac OS X will never change, though; they'll just keep incrementing the first number after the decimal point (currently at 10.13.6, which I just updated to less than an hour ago).

Microsoft will be doing it Apple style from now on.

[vdeane]

Old post, but let me also state for the record that I agree 100%. 

I'd even suggest rolling back Google Maps to 2012, when you could go up to a point "N" (14 destinations) IIRC as opposed to just ten the last time I tried to do a really silly long trip in there with a whole bunch of destinations.

For the record, the computer from which I'm typing this runs Windows 7 and Office 2007; I recently upgraded to 7 from XP in January 2017, and I really like both operating systems.  I've been using Office 2007 since 2014, and I really like both 03 and 07; I have no reason or desire to upgrade from this configuration anytime soon.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm pretty sure the new Google Maps didn't become mandatory until 2016 or so, since my meet directions for the Utica/Rome meet (May 2015) were done in the old version.

For the record, the computer from which I'm typing this runs Windows 7 and Office 2007; I recently upgraded to 7 from XP in January 2017, and I really like both operating systems.  I've been using Office 2007 since 2014, and I really like both 03 and 07; I have no reason or desire to upgrade from this configuration anytime soon.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Consider upgrading to Windows 10 before Janauary 2020. Support for Windows 7 ends then, and you're creating a liability for yourself, and anyone else who might use your computer, by using an OS that isn't supported by security patches.

IMO, any OS that isn't supported by its creators should be considered "broke" for primary usage. Usage for historical purposes is different.

That would mean having used this perfectly good computer for only three years before getting rid of it 

It's perfectly good, until it's not.

Also consider that some people may not be able to afford getting a brand new computer with a brand new operating system every year or two when the new one comes out. 

All Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 licence keys work for Windows 10, making it essentially a free upgrade. The last person I know to pay for a new OS was my mother, who purchased Windows 7 to install over Vista back in 2009.

By the way, and I realise we're drifting from the topic at hand, is there ever going to be a "Windows 11"?

Windows 10 was the last major "new" OS. There will not be a Windows 11. Windows is now a service. Microsoft intends to do major updates to their OS twice a year, instead of huge leaps every three years. The most recent update was Redstone 4, released in April.

Probably. Mac OS X will never change, though; they'll just keep incrementing the first number after the decimal point (currently at 10.13.6, which I just updated to less than an hour ago).

Microsoft will be doing it Apple style from now on.

I'm pretty sure the "upgrade" was only free for a year.  Not that I'd really consider something that spies on you, doesn't let you chose when to update (I'll never even consider it for a travel laptop for that reason, as such a laptop, by definition, wouldn't even be turned on most days, and doing them on my own schedule before/during the trip wouldn't be possible), removed the sexy Aero Glass, and replaced Windows 7's wonderful start menu with one that is optimized to include a bunch of phone/tablet apps an "upgrade".

Quite frankly, Microsoft and Apple's way of never increment version numbers is just as stupid as Google and Mozilla's way of constantly incrementing them for the littlest things.  I remember a day when version numbers MEANT something.

[jakeroot]

I'm pretty sure the "upgrade" was only free for a year.  Not that I'd really consider something that spies on you, doesn't let you chose when to update (I'll never even consider it for a travel laptop for that reason, as such a laptop, by definition, wouldn't even be turned on most days, and doing them on my own schedule before/during the trip wouldn't be possible), removed the sexy Aero Glass, and replaced Windows 7's wonderful start menu with one that is optimized to include a bunch of phone/tablet apps an "upgrade".

Quite frankly, Microsoft and Apple's way of never increment version numbers is just as stupid as Google and Mozilla's way of constantly incrementing them for the littlest things.  I remember a day when version numbers MEANT something.

It's still free: https://www.howtogeek.com/266072/you-can-still-get-windows-10-for-free-with-a-windows-7-8-or-8.1-key/ (you just need a licence key from a previous version of Windows). Once you get the update, apparently, you're set for life, since Microsoft apparently never again intends to make users pay for a new edition.

- You can disable automatic updates. Talk to people over at Notebook Forums. I don't know how to do it exactly.
- Aero Glass was a waste of vRAM; that said, Windows 10 has the blurry background/glass effect if you want it (my start menu is transparent). You just have to enable it.
- You can re-implement the Windows 7 start menu, but honestly, it's not that different from Windows 10. You can pin just about anything to the start menu, if you want it to act more like 7. Besides, real power users use their fingers for everything. You want to open control panel? Win+S, "co", "enter". Windows 10 search seems to be better than Windows 7.

[vdeane]

Now you're making me wonder whether to keep my Windows 7 laptop beyond 2020.  I'm mainly keeping it around in case I ever need Windows for anything.  Hardware still works (though it has a tendency to run hot when doing updates), even though it will be a decade old next year.  I guess I'll have to decide how much I care to deal with Windows 10 and maintaining a computer I don't really use.

[J N Winkler]

- You can disable automatic updates. Talk to people over at Notebook Forums. I don't know how to do it exactly.

There are multiple options; the trick is finding one that doesn't roll itself back without telling you through some kind of "self-healing" mechanism that loads automatically through Task Scheduler.

- You can re-implement the Windows 7 start menu, but honestly, it's not that different from Windows 10. You can pin just about anything to the start menu, if you want it to act more like 7. Besides, real power users use their fingers for everything. You want to open control panel? Win+S, "co", "enter". Windows 10 search seems to be better than Windows 7.

The start menu is editable in the Windows Explorer file chooser, at least in Windows 7 through 8.1, though the process is much more cumbersome for 8+ because the icons are stored in multiple silos.  I assume the same is true for 10.

One of my biggest annoyances with Windows versions later than 7 is the additional hoops that have to be jumped through to open a command prompt with administrator privileges.  This issue comes up when attempting to diagnose something that has been broken by a Windows update.  For the two computers we have that are in daily use, this happens far more often (by a factor of at least 20) for the one that has 10 than it does for the one running 7.

To summarize the last two support problems for the 10 machine:

*  A Windows update somehow broke PaperPort 14, which is absolutely key for day-to-day use of that machine.  Uninstalling and then reinstalling PaperPort failed.  Rolling back to the restore point set before the update also failed.  Upgrading PaperPort failed.  The solution that worked was buying a new scanning and document management solution, at a cost of $250.

*  The user of the 10 machine hosts files on it that he reads over the house LAN on a tablet.  After a Windows update, the tablet lost its ability to connect to the 10 machine via SMB.  We determined the update had turned off SMB 1 support.  The tablet did not have robust SMB 2 support.  It took much Googling to figure out how to re-enable SMB 1.  (Microsoft has deprecated SMB 1 since 2014, and it seems the update that borked the connection was oriented at weaning the user population off it.  Microsoft evidently had to backtrack owing to the lack of robust SMB 2 support on other network devices.  The webpage we ultimately found most helpful had lots of strikethrough text indicating where Microsoft gave up on automatically uninstalling SMB 1 support.)

Now you're making me wonder whether to keep my Windows 7 laptop beyond 2020.  I'm mainly keeping it around in case I ever need Windows for anything.  Hardware still works (though it has a tendency to run hot when doing updates), even though it will be a decade old next year.  I guess I'll have to decide how much I care to deal with Windows 10 and maintaining a computer I don't really use.

I wouldn't think twice about keeping it running on 7 well beyond end of support.  I am still running XP on a twelve-year-old laptop that not only is more than four years beyond the end of support, but also has seriously out-of-date antivirus software.  I use it primarily to run an old Brother multifunction printer as a document scanner, but haven't had trouble using it for light Internet surfing on trips.  The risk of virus infestation goes way down with an ad-blocking HOSTS file and an email client set to display emails as plain text by default.

My current computer has 7, dates from 2011, and still runs well.  Given all the problems people have been having with Windows 10, I may very well keep it going as my primary computer beyond the end of support for 7.

[jakeroot]

- You can disable automatic updates. Talk to people over at Notebook Forums. I don't know how to do it exactly.

There are multiple options; the trick is finding one that doesn't roll itself back without telling you through some kind of "self-healing" mechanism that loads automatically through Task Scheduler.

An issue that I've had myself. I've been told there's a proper way to do it (I did it by keeping my OS drive just full enough not to allow downloading, but eventually by telling Windows that all my WiFi connections were metered). Somehow it outsmarted me, and now I'm completely up to date. No issues though! Except one of my games would crash after the update, but I fixed that by re-downloading the mods I had.

The start menu is editable in the Windows Explorer file chooser, at least in Windows 7 through 8.1, though the process is much more cumbersome for 8+ because the icons are stored in multiple silos.  I assume the same is true for 10.

I only had Windows 8 for a short amount of time, but Windows 10's start menu is vastly improved. You can pretty much right-click on any program, folder, or file anywhere in Windows, and click "Pin to Start". It will appear as a clickable icon on the right side of the Start Menu (to the right of all your programs). You can drag it around however you want. You can create as many columns and rows as you'd like.

One of my biggest annoyances with Windows versions later than 7 is the additional hoops that have to be jumped through to open a command prompt with administrator privileges.  This issue comes up when attempting to diagnose something that has been broken by a Windows update.  For the two computers we have that are in daily use, this happens far more often (by a factor of at least 20) for the one that has 10 than it does for the one running 7.

In Windows 10, this is best done by hitting Win+S, typing in at least "com", right-clicking on the program when it pops up, and hitting "Run as Administrator".

The Fall Creator's update to 10 switched the default automation tool from Command Promp to PowerShell. This can be launched by hitting Win+X, and then on the menu that pops up, hitting "Windows PowerShell (Admin). You can change the menu to offer Command Prompt instead, if you'd prefer. But PowerShell offers basically everything that Command Prompt does, plus quite a bit else. I'm not a Command Prompt geek like some, but I've heard it's rather impressive.



You seem to be experiencing more issues with 10 than I have, and more than I've heard of others having. Honestly, growing up, the running joke was always how unreliable Windows was, in any iteration, compared to Mac OS or Linux. Nowadays, you don't really hear those same jokes like before. My thought was that Windows was finally a solid OS, with an occasional weak spot, but it wouldn't leave you stranded like some past iterations might have. Back in 2006, my father got so fed up with his Windows XP machine that he went out and bought an iMac. He never looked back!

FWIW, I don't think there's any problem with using an unsupported OS on a computer that barely connects to the internet. But for an everyday device that connects to the internet 24/7, it doesn't seem smart. Seems to me that it puts you in a position where only you can help yourself. Just make sure to keep a backup image handy.

[hotdogPi]

I work at Stop & Shop. A few of their computers (I believe for inventory management) are text-only with no cursor or graphics, and just a single color. They estimate that those computers are from 1985, but they aren't sure of the exact year.

[Scott5114]

I find Windows 10 to be incredibly unreliable. I have a dual-boot laptop, and I only use two applications on Windows: GRLevelX for tracking severe weather (because Oklahoma), and a driver program for my vinyl cutter. Windows is remarkably consistent at deciding the proper time to install updates is right when a tornado is bearing down on Cleveland County, leaving me without one of my tools to keep myself safe. The last severe weather event I even left the laptop powered on and booted into Windows for several hours when severe weather was predicted and it didn't go into update until the severe weather began.

How reliable is an OS if it stays running but doesn't allow you to use it for anything? How reliable is it if its update cycle directly threatens your life?

I work at Stop & Shop. A few of their computers (I believe for inventory management) are text-only with no cursor or graphics, and just a single color. They estimate that those computers are from 1985, but they aren't sure of the exact year

At the casino I work at, our most critical software functions (jackpot processing, accounting, ticket redemption) are done through a program fairly similar to what you describe. It is an application running on Windows 7, however.

[J N Winkler]

One of my biggest annoyances with Windows versions later than 7 is the additional hoops that have to be jumped through to open a command prompt with administrator privileges.  This issue comes up when attempting to diagnose something that has been broken by a Windows update.  For the two computers we have that are in daily use, this happens far more often (by a factor of at least 20) for the one that has 10 than it does for the one running 7.

In Windows 10, this is best done by hitting Win+S, typing in at least "com", right-clicking on the program when it pops up, and hitting "Run as Administrator".

Yes, I have used that technique.  It is a hell of a lot less handy than Win+R and "cmd," or just Shift+right-click on a folder in the Explorer file chooser and then "Open command window here."

The Fall Creator's update to 10 switched the default automation tool from Command Prompt to PowerShell. This can be launched by hitting Win+X, and then on the menu that pops up, hitting "Windows PowerShell (Admin). You can change the menu to offer Command Prompt instead, if you'd prefer. But PowerShell offers basically everything that Command Prompt does, plus quite a bit else. I'm not a Command Prompt geek like some, but I've heard it's rather impressive.

I have heard that it was Microsoft's intention to deprecate the NT command prompt in favor of PowerShell in this way, but the former (thankfully) seems still to be the default console application on the 10 computer here.  I do have NT batch scripts that call on PowerShell functions such as the GUID generator, but I have never written anything natively in PowerShell because I find the syntax very unhandy.

My heaviest use of NT batch is for automatically downloading highway construction documents from websites.  I have probably at least three or four dozen scripts that are reducible to the following pseudocode:

Login to server

Obtain a listing of "rooms" where project documentation is held (each project having its own "room")

Block out rooms that, owing to the operation of logic rules specific to a given agency, are not expected to have had new content uploaded since a prior visit (e.g., in the case of NYSDOT, on the first visit after the letting date, the room is marked on a blockout list:  on the next few subsequent visits, the room is not visited when it is found on the blockout list; and once the letting date is one month in the past, the room is eliminated outright and neither visited nor checked against the blockout list)

Visit each room and list the available content

Block out all previously downloaded content in each room

Update log files with rooms and new content to block out from download in the future

Download all new content

This is very easy to code in NT batch because the rooms and the downloadable data in each room can be written to text files, one room per line in a room listing file and one document per line in a file listing (either one file per session or one file per room), and each listing file can be used as the basis for a FOR /F loop that goes through one iteration per line.  Command output can be sent to FOR /F as if it were a file, which allows it to be used for conditional flow control since FOR /F will not execute at all if the command has null output while it will execute at least once if the command has non-null output.  FOR /F (for most program flow control) and findstr (for checking that text strings do, or do not exist, in text files) are my killer apps.

It is easy enough to see how these flow control strategies can be implemented in the various flavors of Unix shell, but in PowerShell I struggle even to get started.  The pseudocode outlined above essentially fits into the structured programming paradigm while PowerShell is object-oriented.

You seem to be experiencing more issues with 10 than I have, and more than I've heard of others having. Honestly, growing up, the running joke was always how unreliable Windows was, in any iteration, compared to Mac OS or Linux. Nowadays, you don't really hear those same jokes like before. My thought was that Windows was finally a solid OS, with an occasional weak spot, but it wouldn't leave you stranded like some past iterations might have. Back in 2006, my father got so fed up with his Windows XP machine that he went out and bought an iMac. He never looked back!

The primary user of the 10 machine is not a digital native and I suspect he has more trouble with it than I would, simply because it is not second nature to him to steer clear of trouble by sticking close to low-footprint usage.  But he is far from unique in having problems with 10.  When it first came out, my Facebook feed filled with reports from people having various issues with 10, mostly due to half-baked updates, and most of the reports originated from highly computer-literate people, including one who makes a living programming in assembler and another who regularly uses CAD applications to produce engineering plans.

As for my experience with Windows, my biggest problems have been disk data losses due to memory errors.  In the early noughties I had a major loss on a Windows 98 machine due to an ill-thought-out memory upgrade.  About a decade later on a Windows XP machine, I had another major loss on an external HD (fortunately not my main HD) due to corruption of the master file table.  I have since not been inconvenienced by data loss episodes, although there was one incident when my backup external HD became unreadable; I determined this was a hardware problem, not the fault of Windows 7 on the primary computer, and replaced the disk.  I have never had a problem due to a bad Windows update on any of my computers, and I think probably the biggest reason for this is that I postpone updates until they can be installed during scheduled downtime.

FWIW, I don't think there's any problem with using an unsupported OS on a computer that barely connects to the internet. But for an everyday device that connects to the internet 24/7, it doesn't seem smart. Seems to me that it puts you in a position where only you can help yourself. Just make sure to keep a backup image handy.

Self-help is the only practical option even with versions of Windows that are still supported.

I find Windows 10 to be incredibly unreliable. I have a dual-boot laptop, and I only use two applications on Windows: GRLevelX for tracking severe weather (because Oklahoma), and a driver program for my vinyl cutter. Windows is remarkably consistent at deciding the proper time to install updates is right when a tornado is bearing down on Cleveland County, leaving me without one of my tools to keep myself safe. The last severe weather event I even left the laptop powered on and booted into Windows for several hours when severe weather was predicted and it didn't go into update until the severe weather began.

Have you tried booting to Windows in good weather and running Windows Update with the force-update option, and then applying one of the registry hacks to prevent unwanted updates when you next boot it during a storm?  It is easy enough to apply and unapply registry hacks using batch files.

[jakeroot]

One of my biggest annoyances with Windows versions later than 7 is the additional hoops that have to be jumped through to open a command prompt with administrator privileges.  This issue comes up when attempting to diagnose something that has been broken by a Windows update.  For the two computers we have that are in daily use, this happens far more often (by a factor of at least 20) for the one that has 10 than it does for the one running 7.

In Windows 10, this is best done by hitting Win+S, typing in at least "com", right-clicking on the program when it pops up, and hitting "Run as Administrator".

Yes, I have used that technique.  It is a hell of a lot less handy than Win+R and "cmd," or just Shift+right-click on a folder in the Explorer file chooser and then "Open command window here."

I was not aware that either of those techniques automatically ran an elevated command prompt. Guess you got me here.

I will say, though, that the new method of Win+X, clicking arrow up eight times, and hitting enter isn't exactly a slow process. At least it's all keyboard.

I have heard that it was Microsoft's intention to deprecate the NT command prompt in favor of PowerShell in this way, but the former (thankfully) seems still to be the default console application on the 10 computer here.  I do have NT batch scripts that call on PowerShell functions such as the GUID generator, but I have never written anything natively in PowerShell because I find the syntax very unhandy.
[clipped]

Wow, clipped for brevity. While I may not see eye to eye with you on this topic, I highly admire your ability to exploit Command Prompt. I am truly lost using that program, except for basic tasks. Guess that's the result of growing up in the "point and click" era.

Self-help is the only practical option even with versions of Windows that are still supported.

True. Microsoft support is garbage.

That said, as time goes on, even total geeks will move on to Windows 10 and beyond, making it harder to troubleshoot an issue. I prefer to keep up with the Joneses for this reason. In the event that a problem does pop up, I can usually solve it quickly by consulting other users. Using an old version of Windows, while I would have to go to the "forums" for help just the same, the chance of me finding someone who might know how to help dwindles by the day. IME, it's difficult to help someone troubleshoot an issue without being able to use the OS in question.

[CtrlAltDel]

The changes to Google Maps for developers have started manifesting themselves in certain end products, and I have to admit I'm feeling a loss.

First, the route tracings on Wikipedia no longer work. I used them surprisingly often for various roadgeeking purposes, and now they're gone. (I mean, I could load the KML files into Earth, but that's an extra step, and I like toggling between aerial views and the map, and you can't do that in Earth.)

Second, the website I used to plot multiple points on Google Maps now uses the Open Street Map, and there too, you can't toggle between aerial views and the maps.

The Route 66 map I use from time to time still works, though, so there's that.

On the whole, it's been something of a frustrating change for me.

[Stephane Dumas]

The changes to Google Maps for developers have started manifesting themselves in certain end products, and I have to admit I'm feeling a loss.

Looks like it manifested on ACME Mapper with a message saying:"This page can't load Google Maps correctly" while MyTopo still works for now but for how long?

[bzakharin]

- You can disable automatic updates. Talk to people over at Notebook Forums. I don't know how to do it exactly.

There are multiple options; the trick is finding one that doesn't roll itself back without telling you through some kind of "self-healing" mechanism that loads automatically through Task Scheduler.

If you set your Wi-Fi or ethernet network as a "metered connection" you will not get any Windows Updates automatically. And it won't be rolled back as long as you keep using the same connection.

[jakeroot]

- You can disable automatic updates. Talk to people over at Notebook Forums. I don't know how to do it exactly.

There are multiple options; the trick is finding one that doesn't roll itself back without telling you through some kind of "self-healing" mechanism that loads automatically through Task Scheduler.

If you set your Wi-Fi or ethernet network as a "metered connection" you will not get any Windows Updates automatically. And it won't be rolled back as long as you keep using the same connection.

That's what I used to do, but it eventually downloaded anyway. Not sure if it was in smaller pieces to keep me from noticing, but it outsmarted me nonetheless. I also have a tower, so it's not like I was changing WiFi networks too often.

Worst case option: partition your OS drive so that there's not enough room for it to download. Of course, at that point, it's probably easier to just download the update and deal with any issues.

[J N Winkler]

I was not aware that either of those techniques automatically ran an elevated command prompt. Guess you got me here.

In Windows 7 they do if the current account is designated the Administrator account.  Requiring additional steps to evoke a command prompt with administrator privileges in Windows 8+ is part of Microsoft's strategy to encourage users to do nearly all of their computing on low-privilege accounts that are harder to hack.  This is fine, so far as it goes, but as with the dozens of other instances in which Microsoft tries to force change, it leaves the end user caught between Microsoft and the rest of the IT industry.  It has been over two years since we were told to turn browser Java support off, full stop, and there are still applications out there (e.g. the "classic" version of MnDOT's Hummingbird DMS) that require a Java applet.  The industry has been moving away from Flash and toward HTML5 for several years now (from my perspective, this is a good move, because AMF is nothing but trouble when trying to code text-based Web scrapers), and it is only now that I am starting to notice a tailing-off in websites whose code elicits the "Your version of Flash is outdated and vulnerable" bar in Firefox.

Wow, clipped for brevity. While I may not see eye to eye with you on this topic, I highly admire your ability to exploit Command Prompt. I am truly lost using that program, except for basic tasks. Guess that's the result of growing up in the "point and click" era.

Your words are kind, but I suspect I find NT batch intuitive largely because my (limited) training in computer science consisted of functional programming in Pascal.  I think you are young enough that object-oriented programming would have been the dominant idiom in whatever programming classes you took.  NT batch was also the path of least resistance for me when I first started trying to automate routine tasks, because it would run at the command prompt without the need to download and install a compiler or interpreter, and did not need to be specially evoked at the command line (which is still the case with PowerShell in Windows 7).  I do have Python installed for certain special purposes, such as using the haversine formula to calculate the length of GPS tracks, and I now have NT batch scripts that depend very heavily on GnuWin ports of standard Unix tools like sed.

Notwithstanding the multiple flavors of Unix shell, I think shell scripts are probably more portable than NT batch simply because the Unix substrate is more widely supported across multiple hardware and software platforms.  Microsoft's foray into Windows as mobile OS is increasingly deemed a failure, while Android, iOS, and MacOS are basically all Unix underneath the skin.

I found Rob van der Woude's scripting site helpful when I was getting started writing NT batch scripts.  I notice it has a section on PowerShell as well--perhaps a new learning opportunity for me . . .

That said, as time goes on, even total geeks will move on to Windows 10 and beyond, making it harder to troubleshoot an issue. I prefer to keep up with the Joneses for this reason. In the event that a problem does pop up, I can usually solve it quickly by consulting other users. Using an old version of Windows, while I would have to go to the "forums" for help just the same, the chance of me finding someone who might know how to help dwindles by the day. IME, it's difficult to help someone troubleshoot an issue without being able to use the OS in question.

I think communications styles and the business model driving an OS both make a difference.  I almost never seek help interactively and Windows 7 is essentially still a static OS.  Therefore, I tend to take the view that once a fix has been posted on one of the Web forums dedicated to helping Windows users, a very long time will pass before it decays off the live Web, and the fix will still be relevant to my copy of Windows 7.  Meanwhile, with Microsoft's new OS-as-service model, the look and feel of Windows 10 changes often enough that a person trying to fix a particular problem has to look at the date attached to the advice to evaluate whether it is relevant.  (BTW, many of the changes are deliberate efforts to overcome user attempts to prevent Windows 10 from updating.)

Windows is a complex enough OS that it often makes more sense to work around problems than to try to tackle them directly.  For example, earlier this year I was plagued with tons of unscheduled shutdowns due to something forcing a BugCheckCode of 9F in iastor.sys.  Attempts to troubleshoot the problem using Windows debugging tools failed.  Later, in an unrelated initiative, I decided to free up disk space by archiving old log files.  I ended up packing away 1-2 million, about 20 GB worth, cutting total file count on my data partition to under 500,000.  Mysteriously, system performance has greatly improved--the last BugCheckCode was months and months ago.

[jon daly]

This isn't a major problem, but recently I was getting directions for someplace and GMaps told me to take S Road. The road was actually South Road.

[vdeane]

(BTW, many of the changes are deliberate efforts to overcome user attempts to prevent Windows 10 from updating.)

Maybe if they would make an update process that didn't brick the system for long periods of time, they wouldn't have that problem.  On Linux, updates are easy; they do not require that other work be suspended, nor do they force a reboot afterwards (although it's a good idea to log off/back in at some point and to reboot for kernel updates, since the pre-updated code will still be running until a given process is restarted).  A normal batch of updates doesn't take very long, either; rarely more than 30 seconds to a minute (of course, Microsoft's "Patch Tuesday" model is responsible for some of this, but not all; even the first batch upon setting up my desktop, it only took a couple minutes, whereas Windows will take over an hour on first setup - and if you need to check/download/install, even a Patch Tuesday batch can take that long!).

[bzakharin]

(BTW, many of the changes are deliberate efforts to overcome user attempts to prevent Windows 10 from updating.)

Maybe if they would make an update process that didn't brick the system for long periods of time, they wouldn't have that problem.  On Linux, updates are easy; they do not require that other work be suspended, nor do they force a reboot afterwards (although it's a good idea to log off/back in at some point and to reboot for kernel updates, since the pre-updated code will still be running until a given process is restarted).  A normal batch of updates doesn't take very long, either; rarely more than 30 seconds to a minute (of course, Microsoft's "Patch Tuesday" model is responsible for some of this, but not all; even the first batch upon setting up my desktop, it only took a couple minutes, whereas Windows will take over an hour on first setup - and if you need to check/download/install, even a Patch Tuesday batch can take that long!).

This is not entirely true. If you're updating the Linux kernel (which would certainly be the case for something equivalent to a Redstone 4) you absolutely do have to reboot. As for everything else, well, you can't really expect Windows to change how it loads executing files into memory. That would completely upend the entire architecture of the OS.

[ipeters61]

(BTW, many of the changes are deliberate efforts to overcome user attempts to prevent Windows 10 from updating.)

Maybe if they would make an update process that didn't brick the system for long periods of time, they wouldn't have that problem.  On Linux, updates are easy; they do not require that other work be suspended, nor do they force a reboot afterwards (although it's a good idea to log off/back in at some point and to reboot for kernel updates, since the pre-updated code will still be running until a given process is restarted).  A normal batch of updates doesn't take very long, either; rarely more than 30 seconds to a minute (of course, Microsoft's "Patch Tuesday" model is responsible for some of this, but not all; even the first batch upon setting up my desktop, it only took a couple minutes, whereas Windows will take over an hour on first setup - and if you need to check/download/install, even a Patch Tuesday batch can take that long!).

This is not entirely true. If you're updating the Linux kernel (which would certainly be the case for something equivalent to a Redstone 4) you absolutely do have to reboot. As for everything else, well, you can't really expect Windows to change how it loads executing files into memory. That would completely upend the entire architecture of the OS.

Regardless, the fact that Linux can apply updates much more quickly (and in a more centralized manner, thanks to proper package managers) than Windows was one of my main reasons for switching on my own personal computers.

[vdeane]

This is not entirely true. If you're updating the Linux kernel (which would certainly be the case for something equivalent to a Redstone 4) you absolutely do have to reboot. As for everything else, well, you can't really expect Windows to change how it loads executing files into memory. That would completely upend the entire architecture of the OS.

You have to reboot for it to take effect.  You do NOT have to reboot for it to simply finish installing, as with Windows.  Linux does not have the "Preparing to configure updates", "Installing update 1 of X", "please do not turn off your computer" issue that Windows has, not does it nag you to reboot, or prevent installation of other updates (it's rare that I have to install updates in separate batches, but guaranteed in Windows if you're setting up for the first time or it's been a while, and each batch requires a reboot in between for Windows but can go one after the other in Linux).

[bzakharin]

This is not entirely true. If you're updating the Linux kernel (which would certainly be the case for something equivalent to a Redstone 4) you absolutely do have to reboot. As for everything else, well, you can't really expect Windows to change how it loads executing files into memory. That would completely upend the entire architecture of the OS.

You have to reboot for it to take effect.  You do NOT have to reboot for it to simply finish installing, as with Windows.  Linux does not have the "Preparing to configure updates", "Installing update 1 of X", "please do not turn off your computer" issue that Windows has, not does it nag you to reboot, or prevent installation of other updates (it's rare that I have to install updates in separate batches, but guaranteed in Windows if you're setting up for the first time or it's been a while, and each batch requires a reboot in between for Windows but can go one after the other in Linux).

True, this is something that doesn't bother me as much as having to reboot at all because I tend to have a lot of stuff open, and the time it takes to restore everything can be a lot longer than "Installing update 1 of X" or even multiple reboots, but I can certainly see where it would bother other people.

[vdeane]

I also tend to shut down my computer whenever I go to bed, so for Linux kernel updates I don't do a separate reboot from that at all.  Windows, meanwhile would nag me again and again, possibly do it on its own if I didn't catch it in time, and if I didn't do a separate reboot, it would take a lot longer to shut down and start up during the normal shutdown/power-up, which I'd also find quite annoying.

[Scott5114]

Notwithstanding the multiple flavors of Unix shell, I think shell scripts are probably more portable than NT batch simply because the Unix substrate is more widely supported across multiple hardware and software platforms.  Microsoft's foray into Windows as mobile OS is increasingly deemed a failure, while Android, iOS, and MacOS are basically all Unix underneath the skin.

Shell scripting as end-user programming is more or less dead on Linux, having been mostly supplanted by Python. You still see shell scripts for simple things like configuration and setup of larger programs, but shell scripts are regarded as kind of a kludge to be avoided if possible. I will sometimes throw together a short shell script to issue a few commands in a batch (I had a program to kill and restart Skype during a period where it had a tendency to freeze), but once any sort of logic starts getting involved it is usually easier to do things in Python. Even for things like shell scripts using sed, often there's a better choice (Perl, for anything you might use sed for).

I find Windows 10 to be incredibly unreliable. I have a dual-boot laptop, and I only use two applications on Windows: GRLevelX for tracking severe weather (because Oklahoma), and a driver program for my vinyl cutter. Windows is remarkably consistent at deciding the proper time to install updates is right when a tornado is bearing down on Cleveland County, leaving me without one of my tools to keep myself safe. The last severe weather event I even left the laptop powered on and booted into Windows for several hours when severe weather was predicted and it didn't go into update until the severe weather began.

Have you tried booting to Windows in good weather and running Windows Update with the force-update option, and then applying one of the registry hacks to prevent unwanted updates when you next boot it during a storm?  It is easy enough to apply and unapply registry hacks using batch files.

I haven't, although my plan for the next severe weather is to do a force-update in good weather. Unfortunately, my days off are Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday, which means most of the severe weather I will be at home for and thus using the laptop will be occurring immediately after a Patch Tuesday.

I am very leery of messing with the Registry, as it represents a single point of failure in the OS, and I've had to wipe-and-reload Windows due to something smashing the Registry before. I would hope that in Windows 10 the Registry is not quite so fragile, but nonetheless it presents a risk that is not present when editing the analogous dotfiles on Linux.

One problem here is that I have not used Windows as my "daily driver" since XP, so I lack the acquaintance of Windows' internals that I had back then, having exchanged it for equivalent knowledge of Linux. This is my own failing, such as it is, but it does provide a handy excuse when someone is trying to rope me into fixing their broken computer for free.

[Eth]

Here's a pretty major problem: if I leave a Google Maps tab open too long, sometimes trying to scroll or zoom the map will freeze my entire OS, leaving me with no recourse other than to do a hard reboot. This is in Chrome 67 on macOS 10.13.5, and I can think of at least three times this has happened.

[US 89]

For me, occasionally the map will disappear, and the latitude, longitude, and zoom numbers in the URL will all be replaced with "NaN". Then, if I can reload the page, it will put me at max zoom at latitude-longitude 0,0 off the coast of Africa. It doesn't happen too often, but it pisses me off when it does.