New Jersey Turnpike

[jeffandnicole]

If the NJTA wants people to use as much of the Turnpike as possible, then I see why they would only point "New York" or "New York City" by traveling the entire length going north to the George Washington Bridge. Its like labeling "To I-95" by going south to the Delaware Memorial Bridge instead of mentioning other exits in between.

Honestly, I don't know if the NJ Turnpike intentionally directs one to stay on the Turnpike.  Generally speaking, it is the most direct route.  Using those "To I-95" signs as an example, there are very few of them (1 or 2, maybe 3), and so far south of Interchange 6, that they don't really impact any traveler's decision making to suddenly leave the highway.  And while the free 295 is next door to the Turnpike, any GPS or mapping software would keep you on the Turnpike if you're on there anyway, since it's shorter in mileage, and faster when referring to the speed limit. 

Going south, a supplemental plate for Philly was placed for Exit 4.  If they wanted to keep people on the 'pike, they would've placed it at Exit 3.

Going north, at the southern base of the Turnpike, the signs could easily direct people wanting to go to Atlantic City to take the Turnpike (to Exit 3).  Instead, US 40's Control City is A.C. 

And in regards to the greenout plates, they could've printed "New York" on those greenouts, which they declined to do (assuming "New York" wasn't what was greened out).

[SidS1045]

Most people are ignorant and think that "New York" or "New York City" is Manhattan.  The rest of the four boroughs have identities of their own in most peoples mind.  Though part of the big city, the island of Manhattan, particularly Midtown is the main part of NY.

People from Queens will say they are going into the city meaning going to Manhattan

Yes, they do, and it makes me want to scream.  They're already in the city, just a different borough.

Referring to Manhattan as "the city" is a continuation of common spoken usage that goes back well over a century, when each of the boroughs was a separate city.  My grandparents (from Brooklyn) said it that way, my parents (from Brooklyn and Queens) said it that way, and my wife (from Manhattan) says it that way.  As late as about 20 years ago the subway station closest to where my mother grew up in what is now called Ditmas Park had neon signs and buzzers which would turn on when the train entered the preceding stop:  "Train to New York" or "Train to Coney Island."  It's just how people in NYC talk.

BTW, I'd like to see some proof that "most people are ignorant."

[cpzilliacus]

If the NJTA wants people to use as much of the Turnpike as possible, then I see why they would only point "New York" or "New York City" by traveling the entire length going north to the George Washington Bridge. Its like labeling "To I-95" by going south to the Delaware Memorial Bridge instead of mentioning other exits in between.

If a driver leaves the mainline of the N.J. Turnpike at Exit 14 to head for the Holland Tunnel, then NJTA is collecting revenue for the use of that part of the Turnpike, the "Peak/Weekend" toll is $13.30 from Exit 1 (Delaware Memorial Bridge) to the Exit 14C barrier.

It's $13.85 from Exit 1 to Exit 18E or Exit 18W headed to the GWB.  Not that much of a difference.

[jwolfer]

Most people are ignorant and think that "New York" or "New York City" is Manhattan.  The rest of the four boroughs have identities of their own in most peoples mind.  Though part of the big city, the island of Manhattan, particularly Midtown is the main part of NY.

People from Queens will say they are going into the city meaning going to Manhattan

Yes, they do, and it makes me want to scream.  They're already in the city, just a different borough.

Referring to Manhattan as "the city" is a continuation of common spoken usage that goes back well over a century, when each of the boroughs was a separate city.  My grandparents (from Brooklyn) said it that way, my parents (from Brooklyn and Queens) said it that way, and my wife (from Manhattan) says it that way.  As late as about 20 years ago the subway station closest to where my mother grew up in what is now called Ditmas Park had neon signs and buzzers which would turn on when the train entered the preceding stop:  "Train to New York" or "Train to Coney Island."  It's just how people in NYC talk.

BTW, I'd like to see some proof that "most people are ignorant."

When anyone thinks of New York City is Broadway, Wall Street, Rockefeller center, Central Park....all in Manhattan.

New York was originally just lower Manhattan

All the other boroughs are more or less very densely populated suburbs of New York City. Keep in mind they are separate counties as well

Some say Hudson County, NJ is the 6th borough if NYC. And no one would think it weird if someone from Jersey City said referred to Manhattan as the city

[1995hoo]

When I was growing up, most of my relatives lived in Bay Ridge and the adult ones* usually referred to Manhattan as "New York," as in (for example) "I'm going to New York, do you want me to pick up anything for you?" This was pretty common among their neighbors too, and it's really not that odd when you think about history. Brooklyn was an independent city until 1898. My grandparents** were born between 1910 and 1920, so their parents grew up in an independent Brooklyn (or settled there after immigrating, more likely–at least on my mother's side, anyway, since my father's mother grew up in Wilkes-Barre and I don't know how she wound up in Flatbush and later Bay Ridge). I have no doubt at all that my grandparents grew up with that usage and it simply became a habit. Funny thing is, my mother didn't, and doesn't, speak that way, but then she left Brooklyn in 1969 when she married my father, and when you're elsewhere you have to be more precise since saying "the City" in Copperas Cove, Texas, won't mean "Manhattan" or even "New York" to anyone. My aunts who stayed in New York City (they now live in Queens–Breezy Point and Roxbury to be more precise) still say either "New York" or "the City," and I suppose that's a bit odder since they were born at least 50 years after consolidation. I guess you pick up on your parents' way of saying things.

BTW, in a more general sense, this isn't unique to Manhattan in terms of New York—speak. Think about the road signs in Brooklyn that point you east to Long Island as if you were not already there. (I will concede that all the bridges contribute to an illusion that you are not on an island.)

*"Adult ones" meaning the ones who were adults when I was a kid. My two cousins who are two and four years older than I am have usually said "the City."

**"Grandparents" here referring to the three I knew. I never met my father's father because he died long before I was born, so the comments here don't apply to him. Of course now all of them are long gone and I can't ask any of them about it.

[jwolfer]

When I was growing up, most of my relatives lived in Bay Ridge and the adult ones* usually referred to Manhattan as "New York," as in (for example) "I'm going to New York, do you want me to pick up anything for you?" This was pretty common among their neighbors too, and it's really not that odd when you think about history. Brooklyn was an independent city until 1898. My grandparents** were born between 1910 and 1920, so their parents grew up in an independent Brooklyn (or settled there after immigrating, more likely–at least on my mother's side, anyway, since my father's mother grew up in Wilkes-Barre and I don't know how she wound up in Flatbush and later Bay Ridge). I have no doubt at all that my grandparents grew up with that usage and it simply became a habit. Funny thing is, my mother didn't, and doesn't, speak that way, but then she left Brooklyn in 1969 when she married my father, and when you're elsewhere you have to be more precise since saying "the City" in Copperas Cove, Texas, won't mean "Manhattan" or even "New York" to anyone. My aunts who stayed in New York City (they now live in Queens–Breezy Point and Roxbury to be more precise) still say either "New York" or "the City," and I suppose that's a bit odder since they were born at least 50 years after consolidation. I guess you pick up on your parents' way of saying things.

BTW, in a more general sense, this isn't unique to Manhattan in terms of New York—speak. Think about the road signs in Brooklyn that point you east to Long Island as if you were not already there. (I will concede that all the bridges contribute to an illusion that you are not on an island.)

*"Adult ones" meaning the ones who were adults when I was a kid. My two cousins who are two and four years older than I am have usually said "the City."

**"Grandparents" here referring to the three I knew. I never met my father's father because he died long before I was born, so the comments here don't apply to him. Of course now all of them are long gone and I can't ask any of them about it.

Growing up on the Jersey shore if some said "I am going to the city"  driving on the NJTP it was Manhattan.  ( See how I kept it on topic 😂)  If you were going to Staten Island, Brooklyn or Queens, you would say so.

Although there was not much reason to go to the "other boroughs", most people came from Newark or Jersey City a few from Trenton or Philadelphia, before they moved down to the shore

[qguy]

Indeed, Manhattan Island is Manhattan Borough but also New York County. The other boroughs all have different County names (Richmond, Kings, etc.). This makes Manhattan the only part of New York City that is also New York County. I don't know if even most New Yorkers know that, but it comports with thinking of Manhattan as equalling "New York."

[swbrotha100]

As far as the I-95/NJTP pull through signs, I don't understand why I-95 shields haven't been posted more northbound from Exit 7A northward (or maybe even from Exit 6 going north). Are the newer signs at Exits 9 and 10 going to be a trend?

[dgolub]

Indeed, Manhattan Island is Manhattan Borough but also New York County. The other boroughs all have different County names (Richmond, Kings, etc.). This makes Manhattan the only part of New York City that is also New York County. I don't know if even most New Yorkers know that, but it comports with thinking of Manhattan as equalling "New York."

The thing is that control cities are cities, not counties.  You don't generally see signs for I-495 east to Suffolk or I-684 north to Putnam.

[SidS1045]

Indeed, Manhattan Island is Manhattan Borough but also New York County. The other boroughs all have different County names (Richmond, Kings, etc.). This makes Manhattan the only part of New York City that is also New York County. I don't know if even most New Yorkers know that, but it comports with thinking of Manhattan as equalling "New York."

...and I can practically guarantee that no New Yorker refers to any of the boroughs by their county name unless they're reading some official document.  The New York state county line markers (NYI12-2a or NYI12-3a) are almost non-existent within NYC.  The "Welcome to (borough name)" signs are far more common.

[1995hoo]

Indeed, Manhattan Island is Manhattan Borough but also New York County. The other boroughs all have different County names (Richmond, Kings, etc.). This makes Manhattan the only part of New York City that is also New York County. I don't know if even most New Yorkers know that, but it comports with thinking of Manhattan as equalling "New York."

...and I can practically guarantee that no New Yorker refers to any of the boroughs by their county name unless they're reading some official document.  The New York state county line markers (NYI12-2a or NYI12-3a) are almost non-existent within NYC.  The "Welcome to (borough name)" signs are far more common.

Isn't Queens contiguous with Queens County and the Bronx contiguous with Bronx County?

[SignBridge]

Yes they are. But Brooklyn is Kings County, Manhattan is New York County and Staten Island is Richmond County. Simple right? LOL

[1995hoo]

Yes they are. But Brooklyn is Kings County, Manhattan is New York County and Staten Island is Richmond County. Simple right? LOL

I realize that. But the prior comments said the boroughs do not have the same name as the counties. Given the number of hypertechnical people on this forum who will purport to "correct" you over a single misplaced letter in your post, I think my comment was pretty damn innocuous in terms of pointing out a correction.

I have plenty of old maps that refer to Staten Island as Richmond.

[qguy]

Indeed, Manhattan Island is Manhattan Borough but also New York County. The other boroughs all have different County names (Richmond, Kings, etc.). This makes Manhattan the only part of New York City that is also New York County. I don't know if even most New Yorkers know that, but it comports with thinking of Manhattan as equalling "New York."

...and I can practically guarantee that no New Yorker refers to any of the boroughs by their county name unless they're reading some official document.  The New York state county line markers (NYI12-2a or NYI12-3a) are almost non-existent within NYC.  The "Welcome to (borough name)" signs are far more common.

Of course no one refers to the boroughs by their county names. Hardly anyone knows them. My point was that New York = Manhattan or Manhattan = New York does make a certain amount of sense, even if only reaching the surface in a vague sort of way.

[SignBridge]

1995hoo.......Us on this forum, hyper-technical? Surely you jest!   

[jwolfer]

Yes they are. But Brooklyn is Kings County, Manhattan is New York County and Staten Island is Richmond County. Simple right? LOL

I realize that. But the prior comments said the boroughs do not have the same name as the counties. Given the number of hypertechnical people on this forum who will purport to "correct" you over a single misplaced letter in your post, I think my comment was pretty damn innocuous in terms of pointing out a correction.

I have plenty of old maps that refer to Staten Island as Richmond.

Until the 1970s Staten island was officially the Borough of Richmond.

Like Toms River NJ was officially Dover Township until 2006.  If you went to the Ocean County Mall in 1987 no one said I am going to the mall in Dover, it was Toms River

Back to the NJTP topic, there was a proposed spur from the NJTP to Toms River, that was canceled along with all of NJ's ambitious 1960s freeway plans.

[PHLBOS]

As far as the I-95/NJTP pull through signs, I don't understand why I-95 shields haven't been posted more northbound from Exit 7A northward (or maybe even from Exit 6 going north). Are the newer signs at Exits 9 and 10 going to be a trend?

Personally, I hope so.  As far as I'm concerned, and I've mentioned such before; there is absolutely no reason not to consistently sign the NJTP north of Exit 7A as I-95.  Such, IMHO, should've been done over 20 years ago when I-195 and I-295 (to the north of 195) were connected. 

I can understand holding off signing such between Exits 7A & 6 due to the PA Turnpike interchange w/I-95 (currently under construction) being not yet completed.

[Mergingtraffic]

Yes they are. But Brooklyn is Kings County, Manhattan is New York County and Staten Island is Richmond County. Simple right? LOL

I realize that. But the prior comments said the boroughs do not have the same name as the counties. Given the number of hypertechnical people on this forum who will purport to "correct" you over a single misplaced letter in your post, I think my comment was pretty damn innocuous in terms of pointing out a correction.

I have plenty of old maps that refer to Staten Island as Richmond.

I'm still amazed at the huge number of posts and discussions related to what control cities should be used and what the new exit numbers will be after the switch to mileage based exits.  Yikes.

[roadman65]

I think basically New York is Manhattan and not just my own opinion.  The signs on NJ highways, used to always point to that particular borough.  Staten Island was always signed on NJDOT signs as such.  Of course the other three boroughs have to be reached via Manhattan and of course Brooklyn can be via Staten Island as well which could be argued that all signs on US 22 for New York from Phillipsburg are referring to all the boroughs being Manhattan stands in the way of the rest.

Anyway, to me and most around me in North Central Jersey going to "the City" or "New York" was to Manhattan.  Everywhere else was "The Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens usually by neighborhood name, or Staten Island."  Heck even the Skyway had signs crossing the Passaic River stating "To New York use Holland Tunnel & Lincoln Tunnel" and the black on white sign on the overhead bridge truss near the Tonelle Avenue exit uses "Midtown New York" for the Lincoln Tunnel's destination and not Midtown Manhattan.

[PHLBOS]

Along NJTP/I-95 Northbound at Exits 9 & 10; there are now new pull-through BGS' that include I-95 shields along with NJTP shields at the respective exits.

However, it appears that these pull-throughs have the control city/destination legend greened out.  These BGS' are square and are laid out in a 3-line stack:

   NORTH     (direction cardinal lettering spread out over both shields)
  95 NJTP     (shields)
*greenout*

With all this discussion regarding the new pull-through BGS; I completely forgot about the Exit 9 & 10 BGS' themselves (I drove by both gantries again this past weekend); these new BGS' show a 1/4 MILE listing at the bottom-center of the panels.  The old BGS' at these locations had the NJTP-style tapered arrow with no distance listing.

Assuming that NJTA will be complying with MUTCD standards; I am assuming that the new BGS' with the angled arrows will be erected where the current, large EXIT 9 & 10 BGS' are.  If not, they'd be taking a page of PTC's old (pre-1980s) playbook of not showing a full-legend exit BGS with an arrow.

[storm2k]

Along NJTP/I-95 Northbound at Exits 9 & 10; there are now new pull-through BGS' that include I-95 shields along with NJTP shields at the respective exits.

However, it appears that these pull-throughs have the control city/destination legend greened out.  These BGS' are square and are laid out in a 3-line stack:

   NORTH     (direction cardinal lettering spread out over both shields)
  95 NJTP     (shields)
*greenout*

With all this discussion regarding the new pull-through BGS; I completely forgot about the Exit 9 & 10 BGS' themselves (I drove by both gantries again this past weekend); these new BGS' show a 1/4 MILE listing at the bottom-center of the panels.  The old BGS' at these locations had the NJTP-style tapered arrow with no distance listing.

Assuming that NJTA will be complying with MUTCD standards; I am assuming that the new BGS' with the angled arrows will be erected where the current, large EXIT 9 & 10 BGS' are.  If not, they'd be taking a page of PTC's old (pre-1980s) playbook of not showing a full-legend exit BGS with an arrow.

That is correct, at least based on what they did further north on the Eastern and Western spurs.

Here is 15W:


Here is 16W:


In both of these instances you will see they put the signs right on the same cantilevers that the old large Exit signs were.

[roadman65]

They replaced Rutherford for Sports Complex!  A sporing venue over a proper municipality? 

I could see Rutherford dropped as most ramp signs to NJ 3 West use Clifton, but I guess because the stadium and racetrack bring in money its a prominent control city in the NJTA's mind.

[vdeane]

It's probably because the sports complex has a dedicated interchange just to the north of there for SB traffic.

[storm2k]

They replaced Rutherford for Sports Complex!  A sporing venue over a proper municipality? 

I could see Rutherford dropped as most ramp signs to NJ 3 West use Clifton, but I guess because the stadium and racetrack bring in money its a prominent control city in the NJTA's mind.

The Turnpike is the main road that brings traffic to and from the Meadowlands complex. Many people come, especially to MetLife, who are not familiar with the area. I think it's appropriate in this case that they mention the Sports Complex on overhead signs because it really helps aid in getting traffic to the right place.

[SignBridge]

Well now LOL, there's a novel idea! Putting wording on an exit sign to help get traffic to the right place. Who would have thought? (chuckle!)