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ICC Intercounty Connector

Started by Alex, August 27, 2009, 12:06:04 AM

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cpzilliacus

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.


1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 02, 2011, 08:34:25 AM
From WTOP Radio:  Full length of ICC to be well traveled

The point made there about how traffic counts aren't particularly useful until the whole road opens is a very valid point. Right now the road is really of fairly limited value to most drivers due to its truncation on the eastern end. On the other hand, WTOP's headline is poorly-written as well. Nobody knows whether the road will be well-travelled when it's done. The headline is merely reporting what a Maryland official said, and a proper headline would reflect that (recognizing that the format for WTOP's website seems to allow only limited headline space).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Beltway

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2011, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 02, 2011, 08:34:25 AM
From WTOP Radio:  Full length of ICC to be well traveled

The point made there about how traffic counts aren't particularly useful until the whole road opens is a very valid point. Right now the road is really of fairly limited value to most drivers due to its truncation on the eastern end. On the other hand, WTOP's headline is poorly-written as well. Nobody knows whether the road will be well-travelled when it's done. The headline is merely reporting what a Maryland official said, and a proper headline would reflect that (recognizing that the format for WTOP's website seems to allow only limited headline space).

It should be well-travelled, given its position in the highway system.

I wondered if western VA-288 would carry much traffic, when they changed the alignment westward into Goochland County.  After opening, it carried plenty of traffic.
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froggie

There's a big difference:  VA 288 isn't tolled.

It'll be somewhat travelled....the main thing it impacts is east-west travel across central MoCo, Norbeck Rd and the western part of MD 198 in particular.  It's not going to do much for the Beltway, though...wrong travelshed and too far north.  And the ICC will increase traffic on some of the north-south roads as drivers maneuver to access it.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on November 02, 2011, 04:58:15 PM
There's a big difference:  VA 288 isn't tolled.

It'll be somewhat travelled....the main thing it impacts is east-west travel across central MoCo, Norbeck Rd and the western part of MD 198 in particular.  It's not going to do much for the Beltway, though...wrong travelshed and too far north.  And the ICC will increase traffic on some of the north-south roads as drivers maneuver to access it.

Adam, there are roads in greater Richmond that are tolled, including Va. 76, the Pohwhite Parkway and Va. 195, the Downtown Expressway - which seem to do pretty well as a toll road.

The ICC is too far north at the west end (roughly west of Md. 182 (Layhill Road)) thanks to NIMBYs in the Aspen Hill area of Montgomery County, who, with help from the Queen NIMBY, the late Idamae Garrott (a member of the Montgomery County Council, then the Maryland House of Delegates and finally the Maryland Senate), got the land reserved for the so-called Rockville Facility, the western part of which (west of Md. 586, Viers Mill Road) is now the Montrose Parkway, east of Md. 586 it was converted to something called Matthew Henson State Park, which is pretty useless as a park. She and her supporters and followers tried (and ultimately failed) to get the ICC's alignment (which is what the road follows today) removed from the planning maps.

Having said that, much traffic wanting to go east-west on Md. 198/Norbeck Road/Md. 28 or Md. 115 (Muncaster Mill Road) or Randolph Road (in combination with Montrose Road and Md. 212 (Powder Mill Road), the only four-lane road that runs all the way from I-270 to U.S. 29 and I-95 north of I-495) is going to find free-flowing Md. 200 mighty attractive. 

Perhaps even more so in the near future, when the re-decking job of the massive bridge that carries I-495 over the deep gorge that is the Northwest Branch (of the Anacostia River) in Silver Spring really gets going.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Beltway

Metro D.C. has 5 times the population of Metro Richmond.

ICC will also greatly improve the access between Metro Baltimore and the Rockville/Gaithersburg/technology corridor.

Quote from: froggie on November 02, 2011, 04:58:15 PM
There's a big difference:  VA 288 isn't tolled.

It'll be somewhat travelled....the main thing it impacts is east-west travel across central MoCo, Norbeck Rd and the western part of MD 198 in particular.  It's not going to do much for the Beltway, though...wrong travelshed and too far north.  And the ICC will increase traffic on some of the north-south roads as drivers maneuver to access it.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 02, 2011, 10:33:00 PM
....

Perhaps even more so in the near future, when the re-decking job of the massive bridge that carries I-495 over the deep gorge that is the Northwest Branch (of the Anacostia River) in Silver Spring really gets going.

That project struck me as a reason why having the ICC open in time for Thanksgiving weekend is a nice move. I'm not someone who's ever going to use the ICC very much simply because I have no reason to do so due to where I live, although naturally I'll go exploring during the toll-free period. But it does strike me as a route that people might find useful as a bail-out route precisely when some other road gets backed up due to construction, an accident, whatever. The incident that pops to my mind was when that bus flipped over the side of the overpass at the I-270 Spur's merge into the mainline sometime within the past year or so. If I were heading up to Frederick from south of the District in that situation, I could definitely see the advantage of taking I-95 to the ICC to I-270.

Given Maryland's political climate, which makes further significant new roads or road improvements in that area unlikely aside from repairs to what already exists, I don't doubt that the ICC will become popular over time. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not popular at first, though, or if people squawk about the toll rates but eventually decide they're worth it. The obvious local example that comes to mind is the Dulles Toll Road. When the Toll Road opened back in 1984, everyone complained about how expensive the tolls were (50¢ at the main toll plaza, 25¢ at the ramps except for VA-28, where it was 35¢). Compared to the then-current rates on the New Jersey Turnpike, the Dulles Toll Road WAS expensive. But obviously it became quite successful when people realized that paying the toll was still better than sitting on VA-7, Hunter Mill Road, or Lawyers Road.

Of course that's not a perfect parallel. The ICC is a cross-county route more in the nature of the Fairfax County Parkway, whereas the Dulles Toll Road functions more as part of a radial system. I guess the Pocahontas Parkway near Richmond (VA-895) might be a more apt comparison in terms of a tolled connector route, but I don't know enough about that road's popularity to comment on it. I've used it two or three times, but that's about it. (It does serve RIC Airport, which might help generate business.)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Beltway

ICC will also comprise a segment of a partial Washington outer beltway between I-270 near Gaithersburg and the US-50/US-301 freeway near Annapolis, utilizing ICC/MD-200, a segment of I-95, a segment of the MD-3 freeway, and a segment of I-97.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Beltway

Route 895 carries about 17,000 AADT with about 1% large trucks.

The competing closest toll-free routes such as I-95 and I-64, or I-95, VA-10 and I-295, are considerably longer but not particularly congested.

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2011, 04:56:22 PM

Of course that's not a perfect parallel. The ICC is a cross-county route more in the nature of the Fairfax County Parkway, whereas the Dulles Toll Road functions more as part of a radial system. I guess the Pocahontas Parkway near Richmond (VA-895) might be a more apt comparison in terms of a tolled connector route, but I don't know enough about that road's popularity to comment on it. I've used it two or three times, but that's about it. (It does serve RIC Airport, which might help generate business.)
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Beltway

Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2011, 05:59:36 PM
ICC will also comprise a segment of a partial Washington outer beltway between I-270 near Gaithersburg and the US-50/US-301 freeway near Annapolis, utilizing ICC/MD-200, a segment of I-95, a segment of the MD-3 freeway, and a segment of I-97.

I got the following in e-mail.  I'd like to attend, but I don't think I can make it.

In any event, I will be making a round trip between the Eastern Shore and Frederick on Thanksgiving Day, and that would be an ideal time to ride it.  I can use the above route, which is only a few miles longer than the most ideal route (I-97, I-695, I-70).

--------------------------------------

The state of Maryland invites you to the Intercounty Connector Ribbon Cutting
November 21, 2011 - 10:30 a.m.

Next Segment of the ICC (MD 97/Georgia Ave. to I-95) to open to traffic, November 22 by 6:00 a.m., weather permitting.

RSVP REQUIRED BY 11/17/2011

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

hbelkins

RSVP? Anytime I have done a ribbon-cutting or groundbreaking, it's been open invitation for anyone who wanted to come.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

froggie

You're also a case where you can fit your entire state's population within the DC metro with room to spare.

hbelkins

Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2011, 10:28:42 PM
You're also a case where you can fit your entire state's population within the DC metro with room to spare.

Still, I can't imagine a road ribbon-cutting to be THAT big of a deal.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Beltway

Quote from: hbelkins on November 06, 2011, 09:11:29 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2011, 10:28:42 PM
You're also a case where you can fit your entire state's population within the DC metro with room to spare.

Still, I can't imagine a road ribbon-cutting to be THAT big of a deal.

More likely, someone specifically wants me to come ...

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

cpzilliacus

Quote from: hbelkins on November 06, 2011, 09:11:29 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2011, 10:28:42 PM
You're also a case where you can fit your entire state's population within the DC metro with room to spare.

Still, I can't imagine a road ribbon-cutting to be THAT big of a deal.

The ribbon-cutting for the Contract A section of the ICC in February 2011 was a pretty big deal (given that it was the first section of freeway-class highway in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. to open since the late 1980's - when the tiny I-370 "stump" (which now connects to the western end of Md. 200) was completed about 1989).

In addition to the U.S. and Maryland Secretaries of Transportation being there and speaking, the Governor of Maryland, the County Executives of Montgomery and Prince George's Counties were there and spoke, as were several members of Congress and the Maryland General Assembly.

The only highway project of a similar scale involving Maryland's part of the D.C. area in recent years has been the reconstruction of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on November 05, 2011, 10:28:42 PM
You're also a case where you can fit your entire state's population within the DC metro with room to spare.

Maryland could do that ...
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

cpzilliacus

Though the title of this is slightly misleading since the easternmost part of the highway (I-95 to U.S. 1) won't be done for a few more years yet.

WTOP Radio: Full Intercounty Connector to open in two weeks
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Mr_Northside

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 11, 2011, 09:18:55 AM
Though the title of this is slightly misleading since the easternmost part of the highway (I-95 to U.S. 1) won't be done for a few more years yet.

It may not be done for a few more years, but the Washington Post link in your next post says they're staring construction on that in the spring.  (Though that article didn't state when it was believed that section would be done.)
I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

Beltway

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 11, 2011, 09:21:43 AM
Washington Post:

During no-toll period for ICC's next segment opening, traffic on local Md. roads could be swamped

Why would the comPost think that to be the case?  A new freeway typically removes part of the traffic from the local roads.


http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

froggie

The routes parallel to the ICC perhaps (mostly Norbeck).  But don't be surprised if this indeed increases traffic on the crossroads that junction with the ICC, namely Georgia and New Hampshire.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on November 12, 2011, 07:33:56 AM
The routes parallel to the ICC perhaps (mostly Norbeck).  But don't be surprised if this indeed increases traffic on the crossroads that junction with the ICC, namely Georgia and New Hampshire.

In general, there was some reduction in volume forecast on the roads that run east-west in the study area, notably the Md. 198/Norbeck Road/Md. 28 corridor.  But I also believe that Md. 115 (Muncaster Mill Road), and the combination of Bel Pre Road/Bonifant Road/Good Hope Road/Briggs Chaney Road (much of which is made up of residential streets) and Montrose Road/Randolph Road/East Randolph Road will derive some benefit. 

And for some motorists, the ICC will save huge amounts of time compared to the Capital Beltway (I-495).  Will it be enough to make a dent in traffic there? I cannot say, but consider that even a relatively small amount of traffic diversion can have big (and favorable) results. And I say that even though the ICC's EIS documents state clearly that the project is not about providing relief for the Capital Beltway between I-270 and I-95.

Regarding Md. 97 (Georgia Avenue), I believe that yes, there will be some increase in traffic there for ICC drivers wanting to reach Md. 28 (Norbeck Road) and get to the downtown area of Rockville.  The State Highway Administration has been looking at grade-separating this failing intersection for many years, which is needed with (or without) the ICC, though it will be expensive ($140 million is one estimate I have seen).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

I look at roads like MD 32 and MD 100, and think about how those untolled freeways function, and then look at the ICC as serving a similar corridor (east-west between the two Beltways) and having tolls. I'm fairly certain that 200 could have been built with 4 lanes and never touched again.

Beltway

Quote from: Steve on November 14, 2011, 09:01:45 PM
I look at roads like MD 32 and MD 100, and think about how those untolled freeways function, and then look at the ICC as serving a similar corridor (east-west between the two Beltways) and having tolls. I'm fairly certain that 200 could have been built with 4 lanes and never touched again.

Assuming that the ICC is never extended, probably so.  If extended to VA-7/VA-28, and to US-50 at Bowie, it will need all of those lanes.  Best to build for the future, IMHO.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

froggie

If Konterra ever gets built, that would drive a not-insignificant chunk of the traffic forecast for the ICC.  And I'd place much more stock in Konterra getting built than in any possible extension of the ICC.  There's **BIG** money in Potomac that's against any new river bridge in that vicinity, and you have both the USDA Agricultural Research Center and the Patuxent Research Refuge blocking any extension to the east of the BW Pkwy.  As it is, the only way you could get it TO the BW Pkwy is by threading it through existing development along a power line ROW (which would necessitate relocating high-tension power lines).



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