I see the A2 tree huggers are up in arms about the much-needed expansion of U.S. 23. While I support transit, U.S. 23 needs to be expanded. The traffic on 23 between Flint and Toledo is usually heavy and should have been six laned decades ago.
'Trains not lanes': Residents urge MDOT to take expanding U.S. 23 off the table(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/r2VPsyaof80TNoj6jJOkusOulV0=/800x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/QPRNXHXJVZFQHMADEVGY5C3FH4.jpeg)
QuoteAs state officials study possibilities for a massive overhaul of U.S. 23 on Ann Arbor's eastern city limit, a group of residents have a simple message.
Build trains, not lanes.
It's a rallying cry for a number of Ann Arbor-area residents urging the Michigan Department of Transportation to take any widening of the highway between I-94 and M-14 off the table.
"We know when you add a lane, it will encourage more people to drive. It will worsen air and water pollution. It will cause real impacts on a community, like mine," said Rob Goodspeed, an urban planner and organizer with the group. Goodspeed and nearly 580 people who have signed a petition with the message to MDOT are not literally asking for rail on the specific U.S. 23 corridor in question.
The slogan stands for a broader statement supporting investment in public transit to meet the travel demand the highway serves, Goodspeed said. And that could mean the possibility of passenger railways already studied for parts of southeast Michigan, he said.
MDOT officials say the U.S. 23 improvement project, which isn't set to being construction until 2027, is meant to upgrade aging bridges and interchanges, improve safety and address current and projected congestion on the corridor where traffic volumes are only projected to increase.
The ongoing study includes looking at several widening options, from an additional general purpose lane to a flex shoulder lane system like that in place north of Ann Arbor. A high-occupancy vehicle lane and a "no build" alternative that preserves the two-lane status quo are also under consideration.
(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/KUoqmGyi9C13Cn6fgM6-cLaH3g0=/800x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/Y2M5ANA33BEDXPAKKWAEILKGKM.png)
Goodspeed, who can hear the highway from his northeast Ann Arbor front door, is skeptical that expanding U.S. 23 will actually address congestion problems. He maintains a widened highway will only attract more users and encourage people to live further from their workplaces in Ann Arbor, ultimately increasing their carbon footprint and promoting less sustainable development long-term.
Ann Arbor elected officials, who oppose any highway expansion, have already formally expressed similar concerns to MDOT.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2024/02/trains-not-lanes-residents-urge-mdot-to-take-expanding-us-23-off-the-table.html
Yeah, let's build a train that goes less than 10 miles along the east side of Ann Arbor. That'll clear up traffic on the US-23 corridor. /s
Seriously, I wonder how much of the US-23 traffic between I-94 and M-14 is commuters? Probably some, but how much? Certainly north of AA where they put in flex lanes has commuters. And some to the south. But how much of it is longer-distance travel that a commuter train just won't have any dent on?
There's this fantasy that *everybody else* will take the train and it'll magically solve the traffic problem so that *I* can comfortably drive. Sorry folks. Not how this works.
I'd love to see commuter and interurban rail take hold. It would be great to see a Grand Rapids -> Lansing -> Ann Arbor -> Detroit passenger rail go into service. But you can't force trains to happen by blocking highway expansion.
So Michigan has NumTOTs too.
JUST WIDEN THE ROAD! :banghead:
QuoteGoodspeed and nearly 580 people who have signed a petition with the message to MDOT are not literally asking for rail on the specific U.S. 23 corridor in question.
Some replies seem to have missed this sentence.
It's pretty obvious this freeway should've been six lanes 30 years ago. This isn't just a commuter route, US 23 brings tourists from Ohio and beyond to Michigan's "Up North". It should totally be 3x3 thru a larger city like Ann Arbor.
If the entire country only listened to NIMBYs like Goodspeed, nothing would ever be built. I agree that US 23 should be widened to six lanes. There seems to be enough room in the median to add a third lane in each direction without expanding the right-of-way of the freeway.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 08, 2024, 11:16:36 AMIf the entire country only listened to NIMBYs like Goodspeed, nothing would ever be built.
Well yes, as that is their true goal, they want no more roads.
As an aside the way, I'm semi-shocked that no-one has pointed out that
Mr. Goodspeed by familial birthright, has taken up his pre-ordained role in life to properly regulate everyone's driving habits.
:bigass:
Quote
Goodspeed, who can hear the highway from his northeast Ann Arbor front door,
And I'll bet the freeway was already there when he bought his house. Unless he's about 80 years old.
So basically this whole thing came into existence because this Goodspeed guy is a light and sleeper and chose where he lives poorly.
Be careful what you wish for.
https://youtu.be/JRRksyGCjoE
Goodspeed probably bought his home at that location for easy access to the US 23 freeway. If he's so miserable about the noise, one alternative would be to move somewhere else. I doubt his house will be torn down to accommodate an expansion of the US 23 freeway.
Let this be a lesson: education does not equal intelligence
I like the HOV option best, as it will better accommodate commuters between Ann Arbor and elsewhere in MI, whether it be Flint, Detroit or Kalamazoo. OTOH, the flex lanes and 3 GP lanes per direction are great options to have for the future traffic increases, and the best part about it is, you'd only need to build inside the median, which is great for any expansion that would be necessitated by said increases.
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 07, 2024, 08:58:33 PM
I'd love to see commuter and interurban rail take hold. It would be great to see a Grand Rapids -> Lansing -> Ann Arbor -> Detroit passenger rail go into service. But you can't force trains to happen by blocking highway expansion.
More like Muskegon > GR > Lansing > AA > Detroit. Might as well go coast-to-coast. In a perfect world, that'd be a perfect solution — as a western lakeshore resident, I'd visit Detroit a lot more often if I could just chill out on a train instead of having to drive.
We could also build both. I guess that would make too much sense though.
While the Ann Arbor Transit Authority hasn't come out formally against the widening project, they do want MDOT to consider a commuter bus transit option. It would involve a series of park and ride lots and commuter buses to solve traffic issues along U.S. 23.
Widening U.S. 23 may not be needed if there were buses, Ann Arbor's TheRide says(https://www.mlive.com/resizer/xTZjx75AjtgM57ApiCIUTDf6hms=/800x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/YGU2E6WJZFE3PJA5MYSEHPTD5E.jpeg)
QuoteAs the Michigan Department of Transportation considers widening U.S. 23 in Ann Arbor to help move traffic along the highway, Ann Arbor's transit authority is calling on the state to consider another option.
The Ann Arbor Area Transportation Authority, also known as TheRide, is offering to assist MDOT in developing a pro-transit scenario for the ongoing U.S. 23 study between M-14 and I-94. TheRide believes a new system of park-and-ride lots served by highway coach buses could reduce traffic on U.S. 23 and local roads and be a more cost-effective solution for the state.
"I have no doubt that park-and-ride will work," TheRide CEO Matt Carpenter said, adding it just requires funding.
The agency is now offering to work with MDOT on the project in a technical advisory capacity.
MDOT so far has put forward four design options for U.S. 23, three of which involve spending big money to expand the highway from two lanes in each direction to three lanes in each direction — either as added general purpose lanes, high-occupancy vehicle/carpool lanes, or peak-hour flex lanes.
That has drawn criticism from community members opposed to adding more lanes. TheRide believes replacing thousands of cars on U.S. 23 with a small number of highway coach buses could reduce traffic pressure enough that widening would not be necessary.But for now, TheRide isn't formally taking a position against the widening — it just wants MDOT to consider a fifth design scenario with transit and run it through the same traffic modeling as the other options, Carpenter said.
MDOT spokesman Aaron Jenkins said the agency is always willing to listen to suggestions and TheRide has been a stakeholder in the process for over a year.
Carpenter said TheRide has had informal conversations with MDOT where the idea has been suggested, but he wants to make clear it's more than just an idea — it's a vision in TheRide's adopted long-range plan that's already been endorsed through extensive public involvement and board approval.
"If the money were available, TheRide has the vision, capacity and expertise to execute a service like this," Carpenter said. TheRide's plan includes specific recommendations for diverting roughly 8,000 cars per day away from the U.S. 23 corridor and local roads like Plymouth Road and Washtenaw Avenue through new park-and-ride services. Park-and-ride service is already tested and successful with several lots in the immediate Ann Arbor area served by TheRide, Carpenter said. The agency envisions scaling the service to have several larger park-and-ride lots along highway corridors leading to Ann Arbor, where tens of thousands of commuters come for work at the University of Michigan and elsewhere.
That could include off U.S. 23 both north and south of Ann Arbor, and M-14 and I-94 east of Ann Arbor, with as many as 2,000 parking spaces at each lot, according to TheRide.
MDOT already built a 170-space park-and-ride lot several years ago off U.S. 23 at 8 Mile Road in the Whitmore Lake area north of Ann Arbor as part of a flex-lane project there. That's only functioning as a carpool lot and hasn't had bus service into Ann Arbor due to lack of funding, Carpenter said.
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2024/02/widening-us-23-may-not-be-needed-if-there-were-buses-ann-arbors-theride-says.html
Quote from: afguy on February 12, 2024, 03:34:11 PM
Quote
TheRide's plan includes specific recommendations for diverting roughly 8,000 cars per day away from the U.S. 23 corridor and local roads like Plymouth Road and Washtenaw Avenue through new park-and-ride services.
At 50 passengers per bus, that's 160 buses. Call me skeptical.
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2024, 03:41:20 PM
Quote from: afguy on February 12, 2024, 03:34:11 PM
Quote
TheRide's plan includes specific recommendations for diverting roughly 8,000 cars per day away from the U.S. 23 corridor and local roads like Plymouth Road and Washtenaw Avenue through new park-and-ride services.
At 50 passengers per bus, that's 160 buses. Call me skeptical.
Ditto. While a properly funded and designed commuter bus system could chip away at congestion, it does nothing for the large amount of traffic just passing through the area enroute to somewhere else.
SM-G991U
The flex lane seems like a decent compromise. Mitigates concerns of induced demand since the lanes aren't always available, saves money, meaningfully expands capacity, and leaves room on the plate for transit considerations.
Quote from: index on February 13, 2024, 12:50:00 AM
The flex lane seems like a decent compromise. Mitigates concerns of induced demand since the lanes aren't always available, saves money, meaningfully expands capacity, and leaves room on the plate for transit considerations.
I also support the flex lanes due to the low cost, but don't think you can appease these people.
Quote from: index on February 13, 2024, 12:50:00 AM
The flex lane seems like a decent compromise. Mitigates concerns of induced demand since the lanes aren't always available, saves money, meaningfully expands capacity, and leaves room on the plate for transit considerations.
Traffic counts are too high. If MDOT was to initially designate the additional lanes as "Flex Lanes", and then sometime down the road the "Flex" portion disappears, that might be a good political strategy. But given that this is going to be a ground-up rebuild of a highway that has plenty of ROW to accommodate additional lanes, they would be insane to lock themselves into a configuration that they can't widen when it absolutely, positively must happen.
The main point of the "Flex Lanes" on US-23 north of M-14 was to get the benefits of a widening without having to tear out and rebuild every overpass along the way, or to ground-up rebuild the highway when MDOT could still economically overlay the original concrete. The fancy "Flex Lane" branding is there to be sexy, but it's a poor substitute for a full-time lane. It works because a substandard widening still produces more throughput, but at some point the traffic load will mandate the third lane become a permanent fixture.
Perhaps MDOT rebuilds this stretch of US-23 with a median barrier, the "Flex Lanes" on the inside shoulders, the two main travel lanes outside of those, and then leave sufficient room for two additional lanes on the outside. It placates the NIMBYs who rant against expansion, but doesn't lock MDOT into a situation where they couldn't add lanes later.
I suspect, however, that MDOT will circular-file any plan that doesn't provide three full time lanes each way on US-23, simply because traffic counts more than justify it. It's not going away if they decide not to widen the road, and the safety problems will simply grow worse. They also can't guarantee funding will be there for a later widening when it becomes imperative to do so.
Washtenaw County is the sixth most populous county in Michigan, behind only the metro Detroit counties of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb, Kent County (Grand Rapids), and Genesee County (Flint). It happens to be at a major crossroads for both N-S and E-W traffic in Michigan, and US-23 serves as a far-outerbelt of Metro Detroit with I-69 east of Flint. US-23's traffic load reinforces that importance, and demonstrates the increasingly dire need for widening.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of flex lanes. I don't mind them for short term improvements, but they need to be tied to a longer full rebuild and a permanent expansion. Shoulders are important and taking them away during the busiest hours isn't very wise in my opinion.
My husband has driven US 23 from Toledo to Ann Arbor several times a week for work for about seven years now, and has long complained about that stretch of US 23 on the east side of Ann Arbor. For Valentine's Day, I drove him to work today (he had to be there only for an hour) - one of the major problems along that route, in addition to the limited capacity, are the old interchanges. The cloverleaf exit with Washtenaw Avenue was backed up this morning almost to the highway itself - i asked husband how often it backs up like this, he said "every day." If capacity is added to 23 around Ann Arbor, then major reconstruction will also be required on Washtenaw and perhaps on other roads leading into Ann Arbor. Traffic in that city is simply awful.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 14, 2024, 01:38:41 PM
If capacity is added to 23 around Ann Arbor, then major reconstruction will also be required on Washtenaw and perhaps on other roads leading into Ann Arbor.
I predict they will for sure change the configuration of that interchange at Washtenaw Ave. DOT's have been rightfully moving away from full clovers for surface street interchanges.
DDI might be a good fit there.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 13, 2024, 11:21:50 PM
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of flex lanes. I don't mind them for short term improvements, but they need to be tied to a longer full rebuild and a permanent expansion. Shoulders are important and taking them away during the busiest hours isn't very wise in my opinion.
I'm ranting now.
They had plenty of room to put permanent new lanes in north of M-14 to 8 mile, they didn't, because this sexy (and operationally expensive for all the electronics) flex lane idea. It should be noted that they redid every intersection for this improvement, so it wasn't because so they could save money on new bridges. And despite literally everyone driving on it wondering why the third lane isn't open all the time, they are now pushing the lanes out to I-96.
Much worse they are also now putting a flex lane on I-96 in Oakland County. And yes they tore up the whole road to do this. The entire sometimes lane is just stupid pandering to the "induced demand" fallacy, IMO.
And after spending a year reconstruction all the bridges, for the next two years (!!), they will be "remilling and resurfacing" I-75 from Clarkston to Grand Blanc and yet not adding a fourth lane at all, despite the road being expanded to four lanes for much of Flint to Bay City. This section is jammed every weekend in the summer. Hell they aren't even fixing the dangerous left hand entrances at the two sides of Dixie Highway.
IMO, MDOT has a real problem lately about expanding roads to their needed capacity and instead spends time appeasing traffic-clueless Lansing folks.
Quote from: KelleyCook on February 15, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
I'm ranting now.
They had plenty of room to put permanent new lanes in north of M-14 to 8 mile, they didn't, because this sexy (and operationally expensive for all the electronics) flex lane idea. It should be noted that they redid every intersection for this improvement, so it wasn't because so they could save money on new bridges.
Slow your roll there. MDOT is underfunded, not incompetent. That lack of funding has an impact in what they are able to accomplish.
MDOT may have laid fresh asphalt and made minor changes at several interchanges, but they most certainly did not replace every bridge or ground-up rebuild the roadbed. A ground-up rebuild would have included rebuilding every overpass wide enough to accommodate at least 5 full lanes of traffic and full 12' shoulders in each direction. It also would've meant a much more massive price tag than the cost of the "Flex Lane" project.
The whole point of the project was a cheap-and-easy widening that would take the edge off the congestion the area exhibits during busy periods. MDOT didn't have to build this "Flex Lane" project to full Interstate-standard because the "Flex Lanes" are only in operation for limited periods of time. That saved time and money they could use to fix other roads, funding which is in limited supply.
Quote from: KelleyCook on February 15, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
IMO, MDOT has a real problem lately about expanding roads to their needed capacity and instead spends time appeasing traffic-clueless Lansing folks.
How many people volunteered to pay an additional 40 cents per gallon in fuel taxes to fix the damn roads? Clearly, the answer is nobody, because the state ended up bonding $3.5 billion to fund the current Rebuilding Michigan program. The state just paid a bunch of residents to ask their opinion about alternative road funding models, because straight-up raising the gas tax is such a non-starter. Politicians would rather give their donors fellacio than deal with the prospect of having to explain to voters why the gas tax went up.
You want MDOT to fix the damn roads? Time to pony up!