Double Left Turn Lanes Followed by Lane Drops

[Bickendan]

The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.

[rofl x20]

Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" .

Clearly you've never been on southbound OR 99W between Newburg and Dundee.


Hillsboro has one of these: NW Cornell Rd at NW 229th/231st Ave (Century Blvd). Google satellite view has not yet been updated.

[Hurricane Rex]

A few examples:
Newberg Dundee bypass both ends.
Scholls Ferry road onto Roy Rogers road. Beaverton
99W onto Sunset Blvd. Sherwood

[froggie]

The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.

Just because drivers in northern Illinois are idiots doesn't mean that's the case everywhere else on the continent...

[jakeroot]

The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everyone can smoothly merge together.

[rofl x20]

Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" .

Clearly you've never been on southbound OR 99W between Newburg and Dundee.

Okay, so that one merge proves problematic. That doesn't mean the entire PNW sucks at merging. Overall, we're pretty good.

Just because drivers in northern Illinois are idiots doesn't mean that's the case everywhere else on the continent...

Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.

[Rothman]

Did anyone mention Astoria Blvd westbound at 31st St in Queens?

https://goo.gl/maps/tZ8mxZebS9S2

It's wonderful:  You come off the Grand Central Parkway onto Astoria Blvd, see those two left turn lanes, but the one on the right dumps you into a right-turn only lane.  Can be a nightmare when traffic is rough as people squeeze left as they make the turn -- merge typically happens mid-intersection.

[MNHighwayMan]

Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.

(emphasis added)

[jakeroot]

Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.

(emphasis added)

....

Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).

[cbeach40]

I can't think of any in my area.

Hwy 6 at Hwy 5, Hamilton, ON

This is from the OP - does that not qualify as "your area"? 

I didn't notice that you posted that . I was thinking of KW, but it's true that Hamilton isn't too far.

Hamilton also is home to the ever questionable double permissive lefts (Garth and Fennell, for example).

Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.

(emphasis added)

....

Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).

They aren't. Collision rates are fairly typical for a city that size, and saturation flow rate is comparable to similar centres so driver behaviour is standard. There's nothing empirical to it.

If anything, Chicago drivers are rather unremarkable one way or another.

[Brandon]

Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.

(emphasis added)

....

Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).

Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO.  They're not known as FIBs for no reason.
Here's a few videos on them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_YKIBgbfSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpiL_mNUZE

There's much, much more.

[MNHighwayMan]

Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO.  They're not known as FIBs for no reason.

Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.

[jakeroot]

Hamilton also is home to the ever questionable double permissive lefts (Garth and Fennell, for example).

Didn't think any of those existed in Ontario. Thanks for that.

Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).

Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO.  They're not known as FIBs for no reason.

[bad drivers videos]

There's much, much more.

...from every other city. You don't really think those "bad drivers" videos are unique to Chicago, right? If you just wanna go on those, I think South Carolina has the worst. LA also has some really hairy shit. Vancouver (BC) has some funny ones (mostly clueless drivers but also plenty of crashes). Seattle also has a channel, where almost every other clip is someone blowing through a red light. Portland (OR) has a channel with some crazy shit on it. I'm not saying that Chicago drivers are good. What I am saying is that they're not any worse than any other big city...

EDIT: joe fpoc has some hilarious Chicago videos on his channel. Great horn use too.

Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO.  They're not known as FIBs for no reason.

Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.

Well, if you're basing your experience in Chicago on that from living in Des Moines, then sure, Chicago seems to have a lot of bad drivers. But as I indicated above to Brandon, they're really not any worse than any other big city (confirmed by cbeach40's post, assuming his source is correct).

[cbeach40]

My source for those were Illinois DOT and the Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning, so yeah, I'm fairly confident in them.

Everyone everywhere thinks the drivers in their area - or even more so, in the nearest major city - are the worst there could be. But at least compared to the rest of North America, they're all pretty much the same.

[MNHighwayMan]

Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.

Well, if you're basing your experience in Chicago on that from living in Des Moines, then sure, Chicago seems to have a lot of bad drivers. But as I indicated above to Brandon, they're really not any worse than any other big city (confirmed by cbeach40's post, assuming his source is correct).

Not just Des Moines. I have plenty of experience with the Twin Cities too (where I learned how to drive on urban freeways, no less!) Chicago, IMO, is easily way worse.

[jakeroot]

Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.

Well, if you're basing your experience in Chicago on that from living in Des Moines, then sure, Chicago seems to have a lot of bad drivers. But as I indicated above to Brandon, they're really not any worse than any other big city (confirmed by cbeach40's post, assuming his source is correct).

Not just Des Moines. I have plenty of experience with the Twin Cities too (where I learned how to drive on urban freeways, no less!) Chicago, IMO, is easily way worse.

Consider the traffic levels as well. Chicago has much worse traffic than MSP, so you're bound to see a lot more crazy shit just due to overall impatience resulting from constant congestion. Suburban driving is relatively tame because things are often relaxed. Not so in cities. Boston, New York, and LA are often famed for their poor drivers; all have absolutely shit traffic.

Everyone everywhere thinks the drivers in their area - or even more so, in the nearest major city - are the worst there could be.

I'm sure there's a term for this. Everyone pulls this crap.

[jeffandnicole]

Those videos...and I gave up after watching about 2 minutes of each, were amazingly....generic.

Any city...many suburban areas...stuff like that happens.  Do I get ticked off when a guy in a thru lane wants to make a left? Yes. Does it irritate me when people weave in heavy traffic? Yes. Do I suddenly say drivers of whatever town/city are the worst and make a video of it because of such actions? No.

[MNHighwayMan]

Perhaps I was being a bit hyperbolic, but I never said that Chicago drivers were the worst, period–I meant more that they were the worst I've experienced. I've never been to Boston or NYC, and while I've been to LA, I didn't drive there and I didn't really spend a whole lot of time there. Chicago is the only place in my experience where merging could be scary, the only place I've seen cars regularly using the shoulder as a lane, and the only place I've seen people go speeding 35+ down snowy residential streets.

Is it perhaps a bit of observational bias? Probably.

But we should probably just end this and get back on topic–I'm kind of sorry that I even made the offhand remark to begin with.

[jakeroot]

But we should probably just end this and get back on topic–I'm kind of sorry that I even made the offhand remark to begin with.

No no, it's not you. One of my pet peeves is people claiming that their city is especially bad at ____. Brandon popped in with another of his "you think you're city is bad at ____? Clearly you've never driven in Chicago" comments and I went off the handle. Not without reason...people who make those types of comments (can be anyone -- nothing against you, Brandon) bother me because they make it sound like they've never been anywhere else.

Chicago is the only place in my experience where merging could be scary, the only place I've seen cars regularly using the shoulder as a lane, and the only place I've seen people go speeding 35+ down snowy residential streets.

A ha! See, I see that kind of shit all the time over here. In big cities, it's really quite common for people to use any available asphalt/concrete to get from A to B. I personally drive in the shoulder to turn right all the time (not on the freeway though). I get dirty looks, but hey! That's the city (yes, that's my reason -- traffic blows, ain't nobody got time for that). It doesn't snow a bunch in the PNW, but drivers are far from cautious when it does. Plenty of crashes on the freeways, cars in ditches, etc.

Things that I see in "the city" that someone from "the sticks" might not be used to seeing: drivers regularly blowing through red lights (no slowing down -- just full speed), driving on the sidewalk, passing city buses in oncoming lanes with cars coming right at them (and the car has to slow down or stop to let them pass), turning left or right from lanes not designated for such, honking at just about anything, drivers whose green arrow has disappeared but they continue to turn anyway (nearly hitting peds and oncoming cars)...etc. These things are not exclusive to just one city. They're things you see in almost every big city, especially one with really bad traffic.

You are right, though. We are fantastically off-topic. I'm editing a video right now of a short merge in my area. Should be online soon.

[MNHighwayMan]

Alright, since you brought it up, just one last comment from me:

drivers whose green arrow has disappeared but they continue to turn anyway (nearly hitting peds and oncoming cars)...etc.

This is starting to become a thing here in Des Moines and it really irks me. I have a habit, if I'm at the front, of gunning it as soon as I get the green if I see someone going to do that, to scare the arrow violator. One of these days, though, if they catch me on a really bad day, I might just lose it and actually hit someone.

[US 89]

Alright, since you brought it up, just one last comment from me:

drivers whose green arrow has disappeared but they continue to turn anyway (nearly hitting peds and oncoming cars)...etc.

This is starting to become a thing here in Des Moines and it really irks me. I have a habit, if I'm at the front, of gunning it as soon as I get the green if I see someone going to do that, to scare the arrow violator. One of these days, though, if they catch me on a really bad day, I might just lose it and actually hit someone.

If I had a nickel every time I saw someone run their arrow in Salt Lake City, I'd be rich pretty fast. It happens so often that I've just come to expect it every time.

[Bitmapped]

PennDOT likes to use this setup. From my experience, as long as the merge area after the turn is decently long, it works pretty well. There are a couple cases near me where WVDOH installed extra long single turn lanes where I wish they'd convert to double turns so it didn't take as many cycles to go through or tie up as much of the cycle on the left turn phase.

[jakeroot]

There are a couple cases near me where WVDOH installed extra long single turn lanes where I wish they'd convert to double turns so it didn't take as many cycles to go through or tie up as much of the cycle on the left turn phase.

I think a better decision would be to convert the left turn, if it's not already, to a protected/permissive movement. If the backups are still insane (3 or 4 blocks long), then I could see a double protected left.

[kalvado]

The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everyone can smoothly merge together.

[rofl x20]

Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" .

Creating gaps slows down the flow - to the point that intersection throughput is lower than it could be. A good metrics is  flow density half a mile down the road - it cannot be higher, and that is the ultimate proof.
Setup is good for one  or two cars with a better engine (i.e. no Jeeps ) which can jump the queue.

[Occidental Tourist]

The ultimate one of these is the westbound Rosecrans to westbound I-105 left turn in Norwalk, California.

It's two left turn lanes into a wide single freeway onramp lane.

[Hurricane Rex]

The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.

[rofl] x20

Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" .

Clearly you've never been on southbound OR 99W between Newburg and Dundee.

That is terribly designed even for mid 20th century standards. I describe it as 2 lanes end and a new one is created.

[Finrod]

In the Perimeter area of Atlanta: East Abernathy has a double left turn onto north Peachtree-Dunwoody, where a lane is also added on the right (presumably for west Abernathy -> north Peachtree-Dunwoody)-- but the left lane of the double turn becomes a left-turn-only lane at the traffic light at N Park Place.  This is part of my commute and it seems like at least once a week I nearly get hit by someone in the left lane who doesn't want to turn at the stoplight and cuts in front of me.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8894455,-84.4760153,17.5z/data=!5m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9341341,-84.3536299,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgDRc9RvrYXgEPDfMi6Eg5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It gets even worse if you're trying to go this way from 400 North, because as soon as you merge into east Abernathy, you have to cross all the lanes of traffic to get to that double left turn lane.  I don't know what the heck they'll do with this intersection when the 400 collector-distributor lanes get built and there's even a smaller gap between 400 and Peachtree-Dunwoody on Abernathy.