There have been a number of threads recently offering criticism of other drivers, so I figured I'd continue, but on a different tack: What are some of the things that other drivers do that annoy you but that aren't the result of incompetence, illegality, discourtesy, and the like?
For me, it would have to be when the driver in front of me on the freeway takes the same exit I do. I'm not sure why, but it drives me nuts. It takes a lot of effort to remind myself that the other driver has full right to be where they are and to go where they want to go.
People who micro-pass doing the speed limit or under.
People who pace me in the lane next to me on a multi-lane highway, when the road is well below capacity.
Quote from: Beltway on August 24, 2019, 06:56:33 PM
People who pace me in the lane next to me on a multi-lane highway, when the road is well below capacity.
I second this one, it drives me up the wall when people don't pass fast enough or speed up when you try to pass them.
People who alternate between driving faster than me and slower than me on a long-distance drive. This is especially annoying at night, because I keep wanting to get ahead of their headlights, thinking I've done it, and then later being disappointed that I haven't.
Let's say the speed limit is 70mph. There's a cop/trooper out, cruising at around 55-60. No one is willing to pass the trooper even though they'd still be under the speed limit. Traffic, then, gets clogged up.
Drivers on a 2-lane highway who, when you get to a 4-lane passing zone, speed up so I can't pass them. Then slow back down when it goes back to 2 lanes.
Drivers who switch from the left to the empty right lane in front of me as the approach a red light, thus preventing me from turning right on red.
Some of the things listed so far are things I would consider to be caused by incompetence...
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on August 25, 2019, 07:07:10 AM
Some of the things listed so far are things I would consider to be caused by incompetence...
I'd argue everything noted so far is incompetence.
Drivers cutting across three to four lanes of traffic to get to their exit, cutting plenty of people off while their at it.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 25, 2019, 11:34:53 AM
Drivers cutting across three to four lanes of traffic to get to their exit, cutting plenty of people off while their at it.
I see this all the time with the left exits at the I-94/M-10 interchange in Detroit, with motorists entering the freeway illegally cutting across three lanes of traffic to access the left exit. With the publicized efforts to enforce the urban speed limit, I wish the police would devote a little effort enforcing the prohibition against this.
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
Drivers on a 2-lane highway who, when you get to a 4-lane passing zone, speed up so I can't pass them. Then slow back down when it goes back to 2 lanes.
Drivers who switch from the left to the empty right lane in front of me as the approach a red light, thus preventing me from turning right on red.
We have a similar annoying thing happen on my island. The road is 2-lane, speed limit is 45-55. There are some people who drive 35 MPH whenever it is a no passing zone, and then speed to 60 when it is a passing zone. They don't want people here and are trying to piss others off. Almost makes me want to invent either a transporter or Portal™ Gun so I can get them off the road.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 25, 2019, 12:33:16 PMQuote from: ozarkman417 on August 25, 2019, 11:34:53 AMDrivers cutting across three to four lanes of traffic to get to their exit, cutting plenty of people off while their at it.
I see this all the time with the left exits at the I-94/M-10 interchange in Detroit, with motorists entering the freeway illegally cutting across three lanes of traffic to access the left exit. With the publicized efforts to enforce the urban speed limit, I wish the police would devote a little effort enforcing the prohibition against this.
With the opposite happening in Seattle between SR 520 and Mercer Street. They call it the Mercer crawl, but they really should just prevent people from crossing 5 lanes of traffic in 1/2 mile, and have people use alternate routes.
Often I "time" stoplights by slowing down as I approach them so I can keep rolling through the intersection as the light turns green. I've come to realize I don't actually like to be behind anyone else who is also doing this, because the reduction in speed makes it harder for me to maintain my space cushion.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on August 25, 2019, 11:34:53 AM
Drivers cutting across three to four lanes of traffic to get to their exit, cutting plenty of people off while their at it.
I would call that not only incompetence, but also reckless driving as in warranting a summons for a reckless driving charge.
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
Drivers on a 2-lane highway who, when you get to a 4-lane passing zone, speed up so I can't pass them. Then slow back down when it goes back to 2 lanes.
I actually think that behavior accords with natural tendencies. With more lanes, a driver tends to feel safer driving at faster speeds.
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2019, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
Drivers on a 2-lane highway who, when you get to a 4-lane passing zone, speed up so I can't pass them. Then slow back down when it goes back to 2 lanes.
I actually think that behavior accords with natural tendencies. With more lanes, a driver tends to feel safer driving at faster speeds.
I know that's why it happens. But as the thread title says, it's annoying.
Making a left turn from the right lane in a roundabout
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 05:28:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2019, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
Drivers on a 2-lane highway who, when you get to a 4-lane passing zone, speed up so I can't pass them. Then slow back down when it goes back to 2 lanes.
I actually think that behavior accords with natural tendencies. With more lanes, a driver tends to feel safer driving at faster speeds.
I know that's why it happens. But as the thread title says, it's annoying.
I tend to associate four-lane roads (particularly non-divided) with urbanized areas and towns. Probably because in upstate NY, there are zero such roads in rural areas, so I cannot say whether I'd go faster with four lanes as compared to a two-lane road.
I think it is common courtesy to maintain at least the speed limit on two lane roads. If a line is developing behind you and there are limited passing opportunities, either speed up, or move to the shoulder to let others pass. Some people don't understand this, and they speed up and slow down not based on how safe they feel, but because they are control freaks, want to stay in front of the pack, want to force others to abide by the speed limit, etc.
People that purposely drive slow. Like today I was on M-53 a little south of Bad Axe and I'm doing abo it 62 mph or so. I come up to a truck that is behind a car driving about 50 mph. We got a passing lane, both the truck and I moved into the right lane and passed the 50 mph car while the 50 mph car stays in the left lane the entire time the passing lane was present ignoring signs that say "Keep right except to pass" so the truck and I had to use the right lane to pass this idiot.
People who don't use turn signals. People who drive over speed bumps at 2 MPH.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 25, 2019, 10:38:59 PM
People that purposely drive slow. Like today I was on M-53 a little south of Bad Axe and I'm doing abo it 62 mph or so. I come up to a truck that is behind a car driving about 50 mph. We got a passing lane, both the truck and I moved into the right lane and passed the 50 mph car while the 50 mph car stays in the left lane the entire time the passing lane was present ignoring signs that say "Keep right except to pass" so the truck and I had to use the right lane to pass this idiot.
And the opposite, people who pass you on the right when there's an empty lane to your left. Typically happens when I'm at an interchange so I've moved to the second lane from the right to leave room for entering traffic and then someone comes charging up behind me and passes on the right even though there's one or two empty lanes on my left.
When I'm driving on a freeway/highway, and leaving a safe distance between myself and the car in front of me, and then someone takes that as a cue to change lanes in front of me.
Also, people who change lanes in front of me, then go slower than the rate of speed that I was driving.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 25, 2019, 11:09:15 PM
People who don't use turn signals. People who drive over speed bumps at 2 MPH.
Especially those who don't use signals to enter or exit a roundabout.
Quote from: SectorZ on August 25, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on August 25, 2019, 07:07:10 AM
Some of the things listed so far are things I would consider to be caused by incompetence...
I'd argue everything noted so far is incompetence.
Incompetence: inability to do something successfully.
So, it really depends not on how you define not incompetence, but
success. Generally, if you are getting from one point to another without incident, I would argue you are competent. If you are actively disrupting and/or frustrating other drivers, then we may be getting into incompetence territory.
Thus, if you regard driving it as a mere action verb, there is not really a lot of total incompetence to speak of. If you regard it as a skill, i.e., a noun, meaning you have to be actually
good at it, heck yes, there are plenty of incompetent drivers out there, but they're not necessarily out there claiming lives or causing significant systemic disruption.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 25, 2019, 01:55:36 PM
Often I "time" stoplights by slowing down as I approach them so I can keep rolling through the intersection as the light turns green. I've come to realize I don't actually like to be behind anyone else who is also doing this, because the reduction in speed makes it harder for me to maintain my space cushion.
I do that too, but I can't say I've ever noticed having to slow down for other people doing it.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 25, 2019, 11:09:15 PM
People who drive over speed bumps at 2 MPH.
I would extend that to: people who brake for speed bumps, period. It is completely unnecessary to use the brakes, at all, ever, for a speed bump.
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
Drivers who switch from the left to the empty right lane in front of me as the approach a red light, thus preventing me from turning right on red.
Quote from: SectorZ on August 25, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
I'd argue everything noted so far is incompetence.
What's wrong with doing the above?
1. I try to keep right except to pass, even when driving in town.
2. When I'm about to change lanes coming up to a stoplight, I glance over my shoulder and check my mirror to make sure nobody is there. I don't keep looking at the next car behind me in that lane to make sure his right turn signal isn't on. Besides which, if I'm still approaching the light and there is clear space to change lanes, then the other driver probably hasn't even engaged his turn signal yet anyway.
3. What if I'm turning into a driveway or onto a side street just a short way up the road? I'd rather change lanes early when I know it's clear than try and barge my way over into accelerating traffic
after the light. Frankly, I find it more annoying and consider it more incompetent when someone is in the left lane at a stoplight even though he's intending to turn right just after the light.
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 01:50:38 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
Drivers who switch from the left to the empty right lane in front of me as the approach a red light, thus preventing me from turning right on red.
Quote from: SectorZ on August 25, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
I'd argue everything noted so far is incompetence.
What's wrong with doing the above?
1. I try to keep right except to pass, even when driving in town.
2. When I'm about to change lanes coming up to a stoplight, I glance over my shoulder and check my mirror to make sure nobody is there. I don't keep looking at the next car behind me in that lane to make sure his right turn signal isn't on. Besides which, if I'm still approaching the light and there is clear space to change lanes, then the other driver probably hasn't even engaged his turn signal yet anyway.
3. What if I'm turning into a driveway or onto a side street just a short way up the road? I'd rather change lanes early when I know it's clear than try and barge my way over into accelerating traffic after the light. Frankly, I find it more annoying and consider it more incompetent when someone is in the left lane at a stoplight even though he's intending to turn right just after the light.
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
Quote from: webny99 on August 26, 2019, 01:06:52 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on August 25, 2019, 11:09:15 PM
People who drive over speed bumps at 2 MPH.
I would extend that to: people who brake for speed bumps, period. It is completely unnecessary to use the brakes, at all, ever, for a speed bump.
Unless it is designed improperly.
Similar to this is drivers who slow down to 2 mph to cross railroad tracks.
A) not pulling forward when turning left (it's illegal in some places and I don't expect drivers to know the law for every state);
B) not turning left onto a one-way street from a two-way street on red (illegal almost everywhere except where I live and a few other places, so I never beep my horn);
C) slamming on the brakes on a yellow light (stopping on yellow is not required in most states, but it is in some. OR for example, but not WA, so same situation as prior two)...if you have to slam on your brakes, you could have made it!
These could be labelled as "incomptence-fueled" but that's being quite picky, when you consider how large this country is, and how variable the laws are. Standards for "competence" should be lower in the US for this reason.
Quote from: webny99 on August 26, 2019, 01:06:52 PM
I would extend that to: people who brake for speed bumps, period. It is completely unnecessary to use the brakes, at all, ever, for a speed bump.
Truly competent drivers haul ass between speed bumps to account for lost time, slamming on the brakes right before the speed bump.
But seriously, there's nothing wrong with braking before a speed bump. How stupidly early, before a speed bump, do you have to start slowing down not to touch the brakes? Manual or auto.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2019, 03:48:34 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 26, 2019, 01:06:52 PM
I would extend that to: people who brake for speed bumps, period. It is completely unnecessary to use the brakes, at all, ever, for a speed bump.
Truly competent drivers haul ass between speed bumps to account for lost time, slamming on the brakes right before the speed bump.
But seriously, there's nothing wrong with braking before a speed bump. How stupidly early, before a speed bump, do you have to start slowing down not to touch the brakes? Manual or auto.
There's a road near me with
seven speed bumps (yes, you read that correctly) over the course of about 1/2 mile. I can maintain about 20 mph for the whole length of the road without ever touching the brakes once (the speed limit is 25 mph). I would vastly prefer maintaining a slow and steady speed, when the alternative is giving so much gas in between, that you are going unsustainably fast and must brake upon approaching each bump.
There are exceptions, of course. There's four speed bumps at the end of I-190 approaching the Lewiston border crossing into Canada. Obviously, you can't go over those at freeway speeds, but even if you've slowed well in advance for the speed limit drop, it's tough not to get going too fast and have to brake for them. I think they're considerably bigger than the ones I referred to above, too.
Quote from: roadman on August 26, 2019, 02:28:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 01:50:38 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
Drivers who switch from the left to the empty right lane in front of me as the approach a red light, thus preventing me from turning right on red.
Quote from: SectorZ on August 25, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
I'd argue everything noted so far is incompetence.
What's wrong with doing the above?
1. I try to keep right except to pass, even when driving in town.
2. When I'm about to change lanes coming up to a stoplight, I glance over my shoulder and check my mirror to make sure nobody is there. I don't keep looking at the next car behind me in that lane to make sure his right turn signal isn't on. Besides which, if I'm still approaching the light and there is clear space to change lanes, then the other driver probably hasn't even engaged his turn signal yet anyway.
3. What if I'm turning into a driveway or onto a side street just a short way up the road? I'd rather change lanes early when I know it's clear than try and barge my way over into accelerating traffic after the light. Frankly, I find it more annoying and consider it more incompetent when someone is in the left lane at a stoplight even though he's intending to turn right just after the light.
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
I believe it's been established that, as the law in New Jersey actually reads, turning right on red
is technically required in that state.
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 04:14:26 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 26, 2019, 02:28:43 PM
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
I believe it's been established that, as the law in New Jersey actually reads, turning right on red is technically required in that state.
Maybe it's just me, but if someone easily -can- turn right, and their turn signal is indicating that they will be, that it is inconsiderate to hold up a vehicle behind them.
Quote from: Beltway on August 26, 2019, 04:29:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 04:14:26 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 26, 2019, 02:28:43 PM
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
I believe it's been established that, as the law in New Jersey actually reads, turning right on red is technically required in that state.
Maybe it's just me, but if someone easily -can- turn right, and their turn signal is indicating that they will be, that it is inconsiderate to hold up a vehicle behind them.
But what started this conversation was being annoyed when someone
not turning right "blocks" someone else from turning right at a red light.
Roadman was therefore simply pointing out that nobody should feel entitled to turn right at a red light, considering the movement isn't even required when permitted.
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 01:50:38 PMQuote from: GaryV on August 25, 2019, 07:00:54 AMDrivers who switch from the left to the empty right lane in front of me as the approach a red light, thus preventing me from turning right on red.
What's wrong with doing the above?
1. I try to keep right except to pass, even when driving in town.
2. When I'm about to change lanes coming up to a stoplight, I glance over my shoulder and check my mirror to make sure nobody is there. I don't keep looking at the next car behind me in that lane to make sure his right turn signal isn't on. Besides which, if I'm still approaching the light and there is clear space to change lanes, then the other driver probably hasn't even engaged his turn signal yet anyway.
3. What if I'm turning into a driveway or onto a side street just a short way up the road? I'd rather change lanes early when I know it's clear than try and barge my way over into accelerating traffic after the light. Frankly, I find it more annoying and consider it more incompetent when someone is in the left lane at a stoplight even though he's intending to turn right just after the light.
I understand why the behavior GaryV describes would annoy the driver of a following vehicle wishing to turn right, but I put it in the category of "them's the breaks." The annoyance I give in this respect I often receive in return when the situations are reversed. And I can certainly understand why drivers change lanes to claim a free space at the stop bar, as this reduces delay to clear the light by removing the need to allow a headway to develop as vehicles in front accelerate to speed. In my experience, this lane change usually occurs well in advance of it being appropriate for the right-turning driver to begin signalling his or her turn.
Quote from: webny99 on August 26, 2019, 04:07:21 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2019, 03:48:34 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 26, 2019, 01:06:52 PM
I would extend that to: people who brake for speed bumps, period. It is completely unnecessary to use the brakes, at all, ever, for a speed bump.
Truly competent drivers haul ass between speed bumps to account for lost time, slamming on the brakes right before the speed bump.
But seriously, there's nothing wrong with braking before a speed bump. How stupidly early, before a speed bump, do you have to start slowing down not to touch the brakes? Manual or auto.
There's a road near me with seven speed bumps (yes, you read that correctly) over the course of about 1/2 mile. I can maintain about 20 mph for the whole length of the road without ever touching the brakes once (the speed limit is 25 mph). I would vastly prefer maintaining a slow and steady speed, when the alternative is giving so much gas in between, that you are going unsustainably fast and must brake upon approaching each bump.
There are exceptions, of course. There's four speed bumps at the end of I-190 approaching the Lewiston border crossing into Canada. Obviously, you can't go over those at freeway speeds, but even if you've slowed well in advance for the speed limit drop, it's tough not to get going too fast and have to brake for them. I think they're considerably bigger than the ones I referred to above, too.
I've always thought there's a difference between speed
bumps and speed
humps. Speed bumps, in my mind, are what you more typically see on private property and in car parks to require you to slow down, and those are typically sharp enough or big enough that you do have to slow down considerably to go over them. Speed humps, to me, are something you see on residential streets whose residents have complained about speeding problems. When properly designed, speed humps allow you to proceed over them at the speed limit such that you won't have to slow down unless you're exceeding the speed limit. (
Here's a Street View image of a street I use semi-regularly that has speed humps. (https://goo.gl/maps/6x1nBbMVJufWYG939) The one the blue Toyota is about to traverse can easily be taken at 25 mph, which is the speed limit there.) Of course, lots of people still slow down way too much. I'm not certain that's really incompetence because speed humps can vary so much from street to street such that you don't necessarily know what speed is right if you don't traverse them regularly.
While I find speed humps somewhat annoying, on the whole I figure if I can traverse them at the posted speed limit I don't have a lot of reason to complain. What I dislike is when streets have speed BUMPS that are put there to "deter cut-through traffic"–basically, rather than being a measure to keep speeds down on a residential street, they're a middle finger to people saying "stay out of our neighborhood." I suppose if the street is privately owned and maintained (an HOA street, around here) then they have a right to try to keep thru traffic off, but if it's publicly owned and maintained (part of the "VDOT System," in most of Virginia) then I don't think it's appropriate to be trying to force people to stay off. The Mantua neighborhood just east of Fairfax City was notorious for that sort of thing for a long time–for many years,
the speed hump seen in this Street View link (https://goo.gl/maps/Bwf9zHb4eMiwZcs67) was such a sharp bump that you had to slow down to 5 mph or risk damaging the front of your car. That's just damned obnoxious and I never understood why VDOT allowed that. Well, I take that back–Gerry Connolly, the longtime Chairman of the Board of Supervisors and current congressman from the 11th District, lives in Mantua, so it's not hard to guess why it happened.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2019, 03:42:41 PM
A) not pulling forward when turning left (it's illegal in some places and I don't expect drivers to know the law for every state);
....
For me, this is one of those things where it varies depending on where I am. In a city, I think it's far more necessary to pull forward when you want to turn left, especially if there are no green arrows or if there's no left-turn lane. In suburban driving, I find it's often a lot easier to see oncoming traffic if you don't pull out into the intersection, mainly because there are so many larger SUVs and trucks nowadays. At the intersection near our neighborhood I almost never pull out to wait because it's easier to see if I hang back, because most of the time there's so much traffic that you're going to wind up turning after it goes red and there are ALWAYS red-light runners, and because there's a reasonably long green arrow there.
Long way of saying, I definitely don't consider not pulling out into the intersection to be incompetence at all, nor do I consider it "annoying driver behavior." I find it more annoying when some turkey in a big SUV coming the other way pulls more than halfway across the intersection from his stop bar trying to stage his left turn. Stay back on your own half of the intersection!
Quote from: Beltway on August 26, 2019, 04:29:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 04:14:26 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 26, 2019, 02:28:43 PM
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
I believe it's been established that, as the law in New Jersey actually reads, turning right on red is technically required in that state.
Maybe it's just me, but if someone easily -can- turn right, and their turn signal is indicating that they will be, that it is inconsiderate to hold up a vehicle behind them.
Agreed. I rarely actually will sit at a red light turning right when it's clear, and it's only if no one is behind me and I need to do something quickly that I'd rather not do while moving, like using my phone to check directions, etc.
But if someone is behind me, I will go if it's visibly clear.
I definitely go for an open lane whenever possible, even if it involves some last-second maneuvering. In fact, the lack of drivers doing this often baffles me.
If there's two open lanes at a red stoplight, I will choose the left lane, in case someone comes up wanting to turn right.
If the left lane is occupied, and the right lane is empty, I'll take the right lane, right turners notwithstanding, unless I can visibly see someone with their right blinker on. Then I'll stay to the left until they go past, and then pull up behind them. Once they turn right, I'll be first in line without having held them up - win-win! :)
People who don't speed up until the end of the ramp. Not only does it slow down people on the freeway, but it means people coming down the ramp behind them can't speed up and then it creates a pinch.
People who slow down in anticipation of a backup because one occurred there yesterday | last week | some other time in the past and cause the backup they feared would be there.
Drivers that tailgate me on a 4 lane rd even if I'm doing the speed limit or 8-14mph above, I take my foot off the gas pedal & coast til they buy a vowel & pass me, I've slowed to 35 in a 70 before they catch on.
I consider 8-14mph over the limit a speed that most cops will let me slide. If I get a good front door I'll follow him & watch for his brake lights.
Quote from: allniter89 on August 26, 2019, 10:53:45 PM
Drivers that tailgate me on a 4 lane rd even if I'm doing the speed limit or 8-14mph above, I take my foot off the gas pedal & coast til they buy a vowel & pass me, I've slowed to 35 in a 70 before they catch on.
I consider 8-14mph over the limit a speed that most cops will let me slide. If I get a good front door I'll follow him & watch for his brake lights.
That's probably the most clear-cut case of incompetence in this thread so far.
Quote from: Beltway on August 24, 2019, 06:56:33 PM
People who pace me in the lane next to me on a multi-lane highway, when the road is well below capacity.
This is extremely irritating at night in rural areas. I am not sure why, but this happens to me often in New Mexico and Eastern Arizona. I'll be driving(I drive fairly fast) and come up on a car who will adjust their speed after I have passed them and pace me. It is infuriating and often causes to me to drive so fast(to make a statement for this asshole to back off) if I pass a LEO I'm going to jail.
1) Not going right on red when it's painfully obvious that it's clear.
2) Not using passing zones on two-way streets. This might be a New England thing, but everyone just tailgates instead of going around when legal. Going around is much safer.
3) Not keeping up speed on an steep grade. This one's borderline but I think some of it may have to do with the visual perception of the road. Maybe some people can't judge elevation.
4) Not moving to the left or right hand edge of the lane/roadway to make a turn. My state requires you to get over as far as you can safely.
5) Driving exactly five under the limit. Whoever these people are, they have mastered the art of annoyance. I don't think they mean to do it but there's always that one driver that will go precisely 35 in a 40.
6) A true accident. Either an act of God or an unexpected medical emergency causes a crash.
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 04:57:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 26, 2019, 04:29:14 PM
Maybe it's just me, but if someone easily -can- turn right, and their turn signal is indicating that they will be, that it is inconsiderate to hold up a vehicle behind them.
But what started this conversation was being annoyed when someone not turning right "blocks" someone else from turning right at a red light. Roadman was therefore simply pointing out that nobody should feel entitled to turn right at a red light, considering the movement isn't even required when permitted.
That is true, but technically isn't the same true for when a light turns green? The guy could just sit there for 10 or 20 seconds before moving even though the way is clear.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 27, 2019, 03:52:41 PM
....
2) Not using passing zones on two-way streets. This might be a New England thing, but everyone just tailgates instead of going around when legal. Going around is much safer.
....
Assuming you're referring to two-lane roads where you pass over the center line when the broken line is on your side, I feel like that's become a pretty widespread issue on much of the East Coast in general. Part of it, I'm sure, is increasing traffic over the years that often makes it more difficult to pass in general, but I wonder to what extent increased urbanization/suburbanization factors in such that some people simply never learned to drive on two-lane roads and are uncomfortable with passing in the oncoming lane. Depending on where you learn to drive, I'd say it's less a factor of "incompetence" so much as "never had the opportunity to learn the skill."
It's weird, my wife grew up in Ohio with two-lane roads, but she tends not to like it when I pull out to pass.
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2019, 03:55:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2019, 04:57:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 26, 2019, 04:29:14 PM
Maybe it's just me, but if someone easily -can- turn right, and their turn signal is indicating that they will be, that it is inconsiderate to hold up a vehicle behind them.
But what started this conversation was being annoyed when someone not turning right "blocks" someone else from turning right at a red light. Roadman was therefore simply pointing out that nobody should feel entitled to turn right at a red light, considering the movement isn't even required when permitted.
That is true, but technically isn't the same true for when a light turns green? The guy could just sit there for 10 or 20 seconds before moving even though the way is clear.
Wow, how can it be true! that the UVC merely states traffic "may proceed" through a green light. Not "shall proceed". Never would have guessed that.
Quote from: roadman on August 26, 2019, 02:28:43 PM
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
Are there states that specify whether or not it's mandatory? By that I mean are there any states where you could technically be issued a citation for impeding traffic by not turning right on red where permitted?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 27, 2019, 04:35:08 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 26, 2019, 02:28:43 PM
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
Are there states that specify whether or not it's mandatory? By that I mean are there any states where you could technically be issued a citation for impeding traffic by not turning right on red where permitted?
See below.
Quote from: New Jersey Revised Statutes, Section 39:4-115 Making right or left turn
The driver of a vehicle or the motorman of a streetcar:
a. intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer, shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below, only upon the "go" signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or special signal; or
b. intending to turn right at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic control signal shall, unless an official sign of the State, municipality, or county authority having jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits the same, proceed to make the turn upon a "stop" or "caution" signal with proper care to avoid accidents after coming to a full stop, observing traffic in all directions, yielding to other vehicular traffic traveling in a direction in which the turn will be made, and stopping and remaining stopped for pedestrians crossing the roadway within a marked crosswalk, or at an unmarked crosswalk, into which the driver is turning. Both the approach for and the turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless such intersection is otherwise posted.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 27, 2019, 04:35:08 PM
Quote from: roadman on August 26, 2019, 02:28:43 PM
What people seem to forget is that, at locations where RTOR is permitted, it's NOT mandatory.
Are there states that specify whether or not it's mandatory? By that I mean are there any states where you could technically be issued a citation for impeding traffic by not turning right on red where permitted?
Can't do it here. We have no statue for impeding traffic. Closest thing would be our statute for improperly stopping a vehicle.
Drivers that drive well below the speed limit for a half mile before making a turn. I mean yeah I know your making a turn but you don't have to do 40 in a 50 for a half mile before signaling and then making your turn.
I see this all the time on one stretch of Michigan highway. M-84 starts at M-58 and maintains a 35 mph speed limit for a half mile to Weiss where it jumps to 40 mph, ok fine. 2 and a half mile north of that is Tittabawassee, another major road but not a state highway. North of Tittabawassee the speed limit jumps to 50 mph but no one seems to get the memo to speed up to 50, a lot is thru traffic but a lot of the traffic turns in the 2 miles between Tittabawassee and Pierce. I just can't understand why no one can jump to 50 north of Tittabawassee.
1. People who refuse to use the entrance ramp for a freeway as the acceleration lane it is designed to be. It's rather unsafe, IMHO, to enter a freeway (with traffic going 60-75 mph) at 40-45 mph.
2. People who refuse to enter the intersection to make a left turn on a green ball. It is perfectly legal in Illinois to do so, yet there are folks who refuse to do so.
3. People who brake on the freeway before getting off on an exit ramp. I don't mean a RIRO, I mean a nice long, gradual ramp with plenty of room for slowing down on.
4. People who persist in going 5 under the limit. This seems to be a big problem downstate Illinois for some reason.
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
6. People who slow down on freeway curves when there is no logical reason to do so, and the curve is designed to be taken at speed by a fucking triple trailer or turnpike double!
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 27, 2019, 05:15:58 PM
Drivers that drive well below the speed limit for a half mile before making a turn. I mean yeah I know your making a turn but you don't have to do 40 in a 50 for a half mile before signaling and then making your turn.
I see this all the time on one stretch of Michigan highway. M-84 starts at M-58 and maintains a 35 mph speed limit for a half mile to Weiss where it jumps to 40 mph, ok fine. 2 and a half mile north of that is Tittabawassee, another major road but not a state highway. North of Tittabawassee the speed limit jumps to 50 mph but no one seems to get the memo to speed up to 50, a lot is thru traffic but a lot of the traffic turns in the 2 miles between Tittabawassee and Pierce. I just can't understand why no one can jump to 50 north of Tittabawassee.
And come to a COMPLETE STOP while turning.
Heh heh you said tittabawassee
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
2. People who refuse to enter the intersection to make a left turn on a green ball. It is perfectly legal in Illinois to do so, yet there are folks who refuse to do so.
I have heard this called "staking out a left turn" and "taking control of the intersection".
Same situation here in Virginia, perfectly legal, yet too many people refuse to do it, and in the process prevent one or two vehicles behind them from making it thru on this signal cycle.
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2019, 08:10:49 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
2. People who refuse to enter the intersection to make a left turn on a green ball. It is perfectly legal in Illinois to do so, yet there are folks who refuse to do so.
I have heard this called "staking out a left turn" and "taking control of the intersection".
Same situation here in Virginia, perfectly legal, yet too many people refuse to do it, and in the process prevent one or two vehicles behind them from making it thru on this signal cycle.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2019, 05:50:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2019, 03:42:41 PM
A) not pulling forward when turning left (it's illegal in some places and I don't expect drivers to know the law for every state);
....
For me, this is one of those things where it varies depending on where I am. In a city, I think it's far more necessary to pull forward when you want to turn left, especially if there are no green arrows or if there's no left-turn lane. In suburban driving, I find it's often a lot easier to see oncoming traffic if you don't pull out into the intersection, mainly because there are so many larger SUVs and trucks nowadays. At the intersection near our neighborhood I almost never pull out to wait because it's easier to see if I hang back, because most of the time there's so much traffic that you're going to wind up turning after it goes red and there are ALWAYS red-light runners, and because there's a reasonably long green arrow there.
Long way of saying, I definitely don't consider not pulling out into the intersection to be incompetence at all, nor do I consider it "annoying driver behavior." I find it more annoying when some turkey in a big SUV coming the other way pulls more than halfway across the intersection from his stop bar trying to stage his left turn. Stay back on your own half of the intersection!
I'm gonna add another one that some of you might find unsafe:
Not guarding against the Pittsburgh/Boston left. You cannot sit there and let three or four cars turn left in front of you when you have the green. You need to get into the intersection to cut them off. Assert your dominance.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2019, 08:38:16 PM
For me, this is one of those things where it varies depending on where I am. In a city, I think it's far more necessary to pull forward when you want to turn left, especially if there are no green arrows or if there's no left-turn lane. In suburban driving, I find it's often a lot easier to see oncoming traffic if you don't pull out into the intersection, mainly because there are so many larger SUVs and trucks nowadays. At the intersection near our neighborhood I almost never pull out to wait because it's easier to see if I hang back, because most of the time there's so much traffic that you're going to wind up turning after it goes red and there are ALWAYS red-light runners, and because there's a reasonably long green arrow there.
Long way of saying, I definitely don't consider not pulling out into the intersection to be incompetence at all, nor do I consider it "annoying driver behavior." I find it more annoying when some turkey in a big SUV coming the other way pulls more than halfway across the intersection from his stop bar trying to stage his left turn. Stay back on your own half of the intersection!
OK, I respect your opinions on the matter, but a few points, 1) I make sure to keep far enough back from halfway so that an oncoming vehicle can make the same maneuver, 2) I haven't seen much difference between urban and suburban locations, 3) if there is a green arrow phase the point is moot, 4) some intersections now have the flashing yellow arrow and the same issue exists, 5) I drive a sedan so I am not at a height advantage, and 6) I am aware of the possibility of a light-runner coming the other way, that is part of defensive driving to be aware of such things.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 27, 2019, 09:06:06 PM
I'm gonna add another one that some of you might find unsafe:
Not guarding against the Pittsburgh/Boston left. You cannot sit there and let three or four cars turn left in front of you when you have the green. You need to get into the intersection to cut them off. Assert your dominance.
I have actually found the Massachusetts Left to be lessening in practice since I was a kid, but you're absolutely right. Perhaps it is lessening because people headed straight have learned to step on it out of the gate over the decades?
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2019, 05:50:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2019, 03:42:41 PM
A) not pulling forward when turning left (it's illegal in some places and I don't expect drivers to know the law for every state);
....
For me, this is one of those things where it varies depending on where I am. In a city, I think it's far more necessary to pull forward when you want to turn left, especially if there are no green arrows or if there's no left-turn lane. In suburban driving, I find it's often a lot easier to see oncoming traffic if you don't pull out into the intersection, mainly because there are so many larger SUVs and trucks nowadays. At the intersection near our neighborhood I almost never pull out to wait because it's easier to see if I hang back, because most of the time there's so much traffic that you're going to wind up turning after it goes red and there are ALWAYS red-light runners, and because there's a reasonably long green arrow there.
Long way of saying, I definitely don't consider not pulling out into the intersection to be incompetence at all, nor do I consider it "annoying driver behavior." I find it more annoying when some turkey in a big SUV coming the other way pulls more than halfway across the intersection from his stop bar trying to stage his left turn. Stay back on your own half of the intersection!
I've never noticed a difference between suburban and urban intersections, except that suburban intersections tend to be wider, and can usually fit more cars in the intersection during the permissive phase. I understand that there are larger cars on the road than there used to be; I drive a Golf. But they're not necessarily much wider, and I'm usually looking around cars, not over them. And yes, there can be people who pull too far forward, but I haven't noticed that as an issue. To be honest, I always pull forward to about halfway, sometimes farther on accident.
For me, it seems strange to drive differently based on the region of driving. A permissive left is a permissive left, no matter where. To willingly wait behind the line and miss the light makes little sense. At the very least, just pull forward and turn when the light goes yellow/red. This happens a lot in Vancouver along roads without turn lanes. It's difficult to see around oncoming cars, so you end up waiting until the light turns red to turn. Problem is, if you don't pull forward during green, it's not always legal to enter when it turns yellow/red (
in some states (not all).
Quote from: Rothman on August 28, 2019, 08:23:32 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 27, 2019, 09:06:06 PM
I'm gonna add another one that some of you might find unsafe:
Not guarding against the Pittsburgh/Boston left. You cannot sit there and let three or four cars turn left in front of you when you have the green. You need to get into the intersection to cut them off. Assert your dominance.
I have actually found the Massachusetts Left to be lessening in practice since I was a kid, but you're absolutely right. Perhaps it is lessening because people headed straight have learned to step on it out of the gate over the decades?
Well it is safer to not force your way into the intersection. But I've found that most people don't look at the light when they're turning left and instead at the car in front of them. So you get people turning because "the guy in front was".
I've been driving for over 25 years, and I've yet to encounter a case where I've been in an intersection with an emergency vehicle approaching that I'm now blocking, or a case where a red light runner hit me. I can, however, count a number of times where I was on the road, and I had to somehow get out of the way because a cop or ambulance had to fight their way thru traffic due to lack of a shoulder, or even a wrong way driver such as what I saw this past Monday.
Thus, based on this, it's safer to always enter an intersection to wait, vs actually driving in the normal travel lanes.
I think people tend to make excuses why we shouldn't do something on the off chance there's an issue. If it's unsafe for someone to wait in the middle of an intersection (where I'm stopped and can easily look around), isn't it just as unsafe to travel straight thru the intersection in the first place (where I'm probably entering at a fast enough speed that I don't have time to see any cross traffic)?
Drivers, who have stopped on the shoulder of a highway, pulling immediately out into the travel lanes from 0 mph. Safer practice is to use the shoulder as an acceleration lane, then enter the travel lanes at closer to the speed of traffic.
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 27, 2019, 05:53:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 27, 2019, 05:15:58 PM
Drivers that drive well below the speed limit for a half mile before making a turn. I mean yeah I know your making a turn but you don't have to do 40 in a 50 for a half mile before signaling and then making your turn.
I see this all the time on one stretch of Michigan highway. M-84 starts at M-58 and maintains a 35 mph speed limit for a half mile to Weiss where it jumps to 40 mph, ok fine. 2 and a half mile north of that is Tittabawassee, another major road but not a state highway. North of Tittabawassee the speed limit jumps to 50 mph but no one seems to get the memo to speed up to 50, a lot is thru traffic but a lot of the traffic turns in the 2 miles between Tittabawassee and Pierce. I just can't understand why no one can jump to 50 north of Tittabawassee.
And come to a COMPLETE STOP while turning.
Heh heh you said tittabawassee
It's a fun word to spell lol. We have a more common name in Michigan that's fun to say. Gratiot lol. I remember I had a GPS awhile back and it would pronounce Gratiot as Grad-I-ott it's really pronounced Gra-shit lmao.
I get annoyed by drivers who bizarrely feel a need to pass me, then pull back into my lane and slow down below what I was driving. I can understand this if I'm not paying attention and camp out in the left lane. I'm just having a senior moment and move right as quickly as possible. But when I'm in the right lane already, it's really annoying.
I've also never seen this (https://interestingengineering.com/tesla-driver-caught-falling-asleep-while-using-autopilottwice), but I'd probably blast my horn if I did.
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
I occasionally let people through, but I've almost entirely stopped letting people through
more than one lane, because that's just asking for someone to get T-boned.
I was out driving earlier today and two common occurrences struck me as being the sort of thing that are not due to incompetence so much as they are to either being inconsiderate or just not paying attention:
(1) Not moving when the light turns green. Pretty much every time I drive I wind up honking at someone at a green light at least once. I try to beep the horn lightly first, only going to a horn blast if a beep doesn't work. (Today a beep didn't work.) It surprises me how many people around here do not honk in that situation. Do they plan to sit there indefinitely?
(2) Leaving a full carlength or more when stopped at a red light. It's annoying because it often results in blocking access to the turn lanes. I think it's caused by people being overly eager to come to a stop so they can play with their phones. I've beeped the horn to try to get people to move up so I can get into a turn lane (combined with having my blinker on and, if necessary, using hand gestures to indicate I'm trying to get to the other lane). Several times the response has been a raised middle finger. Hence once reason why I think it's not incompetence but is instead a sign of being inconsiderate.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2019, 03:30:27 PM
(1) Not moving when the light turns green. Pretty much every time I drive I wind up honking at someone at a green light at least once. I try to beep the horn lightly first, only going to a horn blast if a beep doesn't work. (Today a beep didn't work.) It surprises me how many people around here do not honk in that situation. Do they plan to sit there indefinitely?
I don't honk the horn if there are only two or three of us at the light because, even if it takes a little while for the other driver to catch on, we'll all still make it through OK. If there are more drivers, then I'll honk.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2019, 03:30:27 PM
(2) Leaving a full carlength or more when stopped at a red light. It's annoying because it often results in blocking access to the turn lanes. I think it's caused by people being overly eager to come to a stop so they can play with their phones. I've beeped the horn to try to get people to move up so I can get into a turn lane (combined with having my blinker on and, if necessary, using hand gestures to indicate I'm trying to get to the other lane). Several times the response has been a raised middle finger. Hence once reason why I think it's not incompetence but is instead a sign of being inconsiderate.
I knew someone who kept a greater distance because she wanted to be farther away from the exhaust coming out of the car in front of her–especially with a baby in the car.
She should just turn on the recirculation function on her HVAC while she's stopped if she worries about that.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2019, 03:30:27 PM
(2) Leaving a full carlength or more when stopped at a red light. It's annoying because it often results in blocking access to the turn lanes. I think it's caused by people being overly eager to come to a stop so they can play with their phones. I've beeped the horn to try to get people to move up so I can get into a turn lane (combined with having my blinker on and, if necessary, using hand gestures to indicate I'm trying to get to the other lane). Several times the response has been a raised middle finger. Hence once reason why I think it's not incompetence but is instead a sign of being inconsiderate.
Worse, if they then aren't paying attention, the gap between them and the car ahead can be long enough over the detector to lose the light.
1. Drivers on a 4+ lane highway who remain in the far right (or left for a left entrance) lane near an entrance ramp even though the other 2+ lanes in that direction are clear.
2. Cars that on a one-lane road pull so far to the right to make a left hand turn that they cause an entire line of traffic to form behind them.
3. Tailgating so close that I can't see the headlights of the car behind me.
4. People who flash their high beams to get me to move over, even though I'm doing 10+ miles over the limit.
5. People who drive in your blind spot for an extended period.
Quote from: Rothman on August 28, 2019, 08:23:32 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 27, 2019, 09:06:06 PM
I'm gonna add another one that some of you might find unsafe:
Not guarding against the Pittsburgh/Boston left. You cannot sit there and let three or four cars turn left in front of you when you have the green. You need to get into the intersection to cut them off. Assert your dominance.
I have actually found the Massachusetts Left to be lessening in practice since I was a kid, but you're absolutely right. Perhaps it is lessening because people headed straight have learned to step on it out of the gate over the decades?
It's still bad but getting better. I deal with it so much as a cyclist, with a mind-numbed driver beside me letting the left-turner oncoming go while I am proceeding thru. I've "interacted" with a few before, and they tend to be more of the overly defensive driver type.
I got a laugh as an auto adjuster out of the few left-turners that caused an accident and felt they did nothing wrong. A large deductible and hundreds of dollars more per year in premium shed them of that delusion quickly.
Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2019, 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2019, 03:30:27 PM
(2) Leaving a full carlength or more when stopped at a red light. It's annoying because it often results in blocking access to the turn lanes. I think it's caused by people being overly eager to come to a stop so they can play with their phones. I've beeped the horn to try to get people to move up so I can get into a turn lane (combined with having my blinker on and, if necessary, using hand gestures to indicate I'm trying to get to the other lane). Several times the response has been a raised middle finger. Hence once reason why I think it's not incompetence but is instead a sign of being inconsiderate.
I knew someone who kept a greater distance because she wanted to be farther away from the exhaust coming out of the car in front of her–especially with a baby in the car.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2019, 03:39:01 PM
She should just turn on the recirculation function on her HVAC while she's stopped if she worries about that.
Or just leave a gap at stoplights. Switching the recirc on and off at every stoplight seems like it would be a bit of a fuss when driving in city traffic.
FWIW, I'm not sure I agree with the practice. I'm just saying I know of at least one semi-valid reason for doing so.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 28, 2019, 04:09:59 PM
4. People who flash their high beams to get me to move over, even though I'm doing 10+ miles over the limit.
This was 25 or so years ago but ...
People who flash their high beams to get me to move over, even though I'm already in the right lane (admittedly I was barely at the speed limit as I was limping along on a mini-spare. But the left lane was empty - I guess that was too far out of his way).
Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2019, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
I occasionally let people through, but I've almost entirely stopped letting people through more than one lane, because that's just asking for someone to get T-boned.
Absolutely agree. The examples I refer to are on two-lane roads. Anything requiring more than two-way communication is asking for trouble.
Quote from: lstone19 on August 28, 2019, 04:44:46 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 28, 2019, 04:09:59 PM
4. People who flash their high beams to get me to move over, even though I'm doing 10+ miles over the limit.
This was 25 or so years ago but ...
People who flash their high beams to get me to move over, even though I'm already in the right lane (admittedly I was barely at the speed limit as I was limping along on a mini-spare. But the left lane was empty - I guess that was too far out of his way).
I had one case where I was driving on a two-lane road. This was at night, practically no traffic, ample passing zones, and I was already going 5 over. It's not like I was driving extremely slow, and he had plenty of opportunity to legally pass (and being that it was night, seeing someone's oncoming headlights is easy, so passing should have been even easier than during the day, especially as there was almost no other traffic). Did he? Nope, just spent 10 miles flashing his high beams until he decided to illegally pass me over a double yellow approaching a red light for a one-lane bridge (right around here (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.491257,-74.8680875,3a,75y,299.68h,79.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shEwDe_RxvZS_O3_rSVqLxQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664)).
Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2019, 01:49:35 PM
Drivers, who have stopped on the shoulder of a highway, pulling immediately out into the travel lanes from 0 mph. Safer practice is to use the shoulder as an acceleration lane, then enter the travel lanes at closer to the speed of traffic.
Even worse is when 18 wheelers pull of the shoulder straight into the travel lanes. A loaded truck has very slow acceleration so it takes a looong time to get up to the speed limit
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
Quote from: Rothman on August 29, 2019, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
Tough shit. They can follow the same rules of the road as everyone else by waiting for traffic to clear.
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 07:00:17 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 29, 2019, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
Tough shit. They can follow the same rules of the road as everyone else by waiting for traffic to clear.
I look forward to you arguing this to your local school board and the reaction you would get: Exactly your two starting words, there.
Quote from: Rothman on August 29, 2019, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
I bet it's not even 20 seconds he loses.
Quote from: Rothman on August 29, 2019, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
On that, we can agree!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 29, 2019, 07:20:52 AM
I bet it's not even 20 seconds he loses.
If the school near me is any indication, it could easily be several minutes between the volume of buses, and the short length of the green light at the adjacent traffic signal. But IMO a few minutes for everyone, is better than a few seconds for existing traffic and 10-15 minutes for buses at the second entrance. Sort of the same basic principle as a zipper merge; take turns when congested.
Quote from: Rothman on August 29, 2019, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
Sounds about how like the city buses run here in Saginaw, Michigan. They are already running late but they speed, run red lights and do other dangerous things. I got a STARS bus driver fired about 6 years ago. I was behind one of their buses that disregarded two train crossings which you have to stop at. I wanted to know who the driver was after the second missed stop and found out it was a lady that I had a problem with before when I was riding on the bus. So I called STARS dispatch and reported it. The person on the other end thanked me for bringing it to their attention and said that they would bring it up at their next safety meeting. Well about a month later i was on one of their buses and overheard someone talking about the driver that did this and said she isn't with the company anymore they terminated her because she ran a train crossing i thought holy crap I'm the one that got her fired.
I was once making a supplies delivery to the school district in Carmi (IL), here (https://goo.gl/maps/NAQh6GV7SFEYDoef9). While I was making my delivery, it came time for the school buses to line up. Apparently, it was usual practice to line all the buses up on this block, two buses wide, then load all the kids on. They told me the buses would be lining up soon, but I was legally parallel-parked, so I wasn't too concerned. When they told me I'd better hurry up, I told them it was a public street without any parking restriction signs. But I proceeded outside, did some re-stacking and re-strapping in the back of the truck to make sure my load was still secure, and left.
Next day, my boss said they had complained about my behavior, saying I didn't care about blocking the buses and taking my sweet time in the back of the truck before leaving. I told them my attitude should probably have been better, but that there's nothing actually wrong with being parallel-parked on a public street. I see in the GSV shot I linked to above that there's now a parking restriction sign...
Quote from: kphoger on August 30, 2019, 02:40:01 PMNext day, my boss said they had complained about my behavior, saying I didn't care about blocking the buses and taking my sweet time in the back of the truck before leaving. I told them my attitude should probably have been better, but that there's nothing actually wrong with being parallel-parked on a public street. I see in the GSV shot I linked to above that there's now a parking restriction sign...
It is not legally enforceable since it does not use the FHWA alphabet series.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 30, 2019, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 30, 2019, 02:40:01 PMNext day, my boss said they had complained about my behavior, saying I didn't care about blocking the buses and taking my sweet time in the back of the truck before leaving. I told them my attitude should probably have been better, but that there's nothing actually wrong with being parallel-parked on a public street. I see in the GSV shot I linked to above that there's now a parking restriction sign...
It is not legally enforceable since it does not use the FHWA alphabet series.
Try to tell that one to a cop :D
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 30, 2019, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 30, 2019, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 30, 2019, 02:40:01 PMNext day, my boss said they had complained about my behavior, saying I didn't care about blocking the buses and taking my sweet time in the back of the truck before leaving. I told them my attitude should probably have been better, but that there's nothing actually wrong with being parallel-parked on a public street. I see in the GSV shot I linked to above that there's now a parking restriction sign...
It is not legally enforceable since it does not use the FHWA alphabet series.
Try to tell that one to a cop :D
It depends on who installed the signage. If it is a municipal street and the signage was installed by the school, then it may not be enforceable at all.
Quote from: allniter89 on August 26, 2019, 10:53:45 PM
I take my foot off the gas pedal & coast til they buy a vowel & pass me, I've slowed to 35 in a 70 before they catch on.
Wait, what?
Who gets the $250? I thought Sajak had cornered the market on that one.
This goes beyond annoying. I will mention the roads I was on as well since I have mentioned names of roads in my area on this forum before. I was on M-84 (Bay Road) coming up to Tittabawassee Road (I love spelling Tittabawassee lol). I was the third car back in the right turn lane to make a right onto Tittabawassee. The first vehicle was a pickup truck with out of state plates (Indiana), the second car was a white Impala and then me. The light was red for us but there is a green arrow for a right hand turn at that intersection (I might have to get a picture to show what I'm talking about), ok so the light is red and the green arrow for right turn is on, no one is moving and I'm thinking the truck from Indiana might not know that you don't have to stop when the green arrow is on. So we're stopped there and I honk my horn to get the truck to start moving and after a couple of honks he did make his right turn.
Once all three of us were on Tittabawassee (I'm waiting for the day I misspell that word and don't even realize it) the truck was in the right lane, the white car gets in the left lane and the next light at Fashion Square Blvd. is red so we all have to stop for that light. The guy in the white car pulls up next to me puts his hands up in the air and starts shouting at me, so I responded back because I was already ticked about the previous light. He then wants to fight me, signaling with his finger to come here. This guy has about a 5 year old kid sitting in the front seat of his car (which is illegal because the kid should be in a booster seat in the back seat not in the front seat but that's beside the point). I started cussing at the guy throwing the F bomb at him pretty good. At the next light he was going to turn left and I was going straight, I honked my horn one more time at him and flicked him off. In the meantime the idiot from Indiana is taking forever and a day to get going at the light and I'm wanting to get around the truck but the damn car I'm fighting with is right next to me. I mean talk about road rage, all I did was honked my horn to get them to start moving.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 31, 2019, 09:43:50 AM
This goes beyond annoying. I will mention the roads I was on as well since I have mentioned names of roads in my area on this forum before. I was on M-84 (Bay Road) coming up to Tittabawassee Road (I love spelling Tittabawassee lol). I was the third car back in the right turn lane to make a right onto Tittabawassee. The first vehicle was a pickup truck with out of state plates (Indiana), the second car was a white Impala and then me. The light was red for us but there is a green arrow for a right hand turn at that intersection (I might have to get a picture to show what I'm talking about), ok so the light is red and the green arrow for right turn is on, no one is moving and I'm thinking the truck from Indiana might not know that you don't have to stop when the green arrow is on. So we're stopped there and I honk my horn to get the truck to start moving and after a couple of honks he did make his right turn.
Once all three of us were on Tittabawassee (I'm waiting for the day I misspell that word and don't even realize it) the truck was in the right lane, the white car gets in the left lane and the next light at Fashion Square Blvd. is red so we all have to stop for that light. The guy in the white car pulls up next to me puts his hands up in the air and starts shouting at me, so I responded back because I was already ticked about the previous light. He then wants to fight me, signaling with his finger to come here. This guy has about a 5 year old kid sitting in the front seat of his car (which is illegal because the kid should be in a booster seat in the back seat not in the front seat but that's beside the point). I started cussing at the guy throwing the F bomb at him pretty good. At the next light he was going to turn left and I was going straight, I honked my horn one more time at him and flicked him off. In the meantime the idiot from Indiana is taking forever and a day to get going at the light and I'm wanting to get around the truck but the damn car I'm fighting with is right next to me. I mean talk about road rage, all I did was honked my horn to get them to start moving.
Classy. All around. :D
Quote from: Rothman on August 31, 2019, 02:45:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 31, 2019, 09:43:50 AM
This goes beyond annoying. I will mention the roads I was on as well since I have mentioned names of roads in my area on this forum before. I was on M-84 (Bay Road) coming up to Tittabawassee Road (I love spelling Tittabawassee lol). I was the third car back in the right turn lane to make a right onto Tittabawassee. The first vehicle was a pickup truck with out of state plates (Indiana), the second car was a white Impala and then me. The light was red for us but there is a green arrow for a right hand turn at that intersection (I might have to get a picture to show what I'm talking about), ok so the light is red and the green arrow for right turn is on, no one is moving and I'm thinking the truck from Indiana might not know that you don't have to stop when the green arrow is on. So we're stopped there and I honk my horn to get the truck to start moving and after a couple of honks he did make his right turn.
Once all three of us were on Tittabawassee (I'm waiting for the day I misspell that word and don't even realize it) the truck was in the right lane, the white car gets in the left lane and the next light at Fashion Square Blvd. is red so we all have to stop for that light. The guy in the white car pulls up next to me puts his hands up in the air and starts shouting at me, so I responded back because I was already ticked about the previous light. He then wants to fight me, signaling with his finger to come here. This guy has about a 5 year old kid sitting in the front seat of his car (which is illegal because the kid should be in a booster seat in the back seat not in the front seat but that's beside the point). I started cussing at the guy throwing the F bomb at him pretty good. At the next light he was going to turn left and I was going straight, I honked my horn one more time at him and flicked him off. In the meantime the idiot from Indiana is taking forever and a day to get going at the light and I'm wanting to get around the truck but the damn car I'm fighting with is right next to me. I mean talk about road rage, all I did was honked my horn to get them to start moving.
Classy. All around. :D
Lol I was just getting even with him.
Quote from: Rothman on August 29, 2019, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
Then put a cop there. Or a temp light.
Quote from: kphoger on August 30, 2019, 02:40:01 PM
I was once making a supplies delivery to the school district in Carmi (IL), here (https://goo.gl/maps/NAQh6GV7SFEYDoef9). While I was making my delivery, it came time for the school buses to line up. Apparently, it was usual practice to line all the buses up on this block, two buses wide, then load all the kids on. They told me the buses would be lining up soon, but I was legally parallel-parked, so I wasn't too concerned. When they told me I'd better hurry up, I told them it was a public street without any parking restriction signs. But I proceeded outside, did some re-stacking and re-strapping in the back of the truck to make sure my load was still secure, and left.
Next day, my boss said they had complained about my behavior, saying I didn't care about blocking the buses and taking my sweet time in the back of the truck before leaving. I told them my attitude should probably have been better, but that there's nothing actually wrong with being parallel-parked on a public street. I see in the GSV shot I linked to above that there's now a parking restriction sign...
So, with something like this, you can look at it two ways: You can stand your ground, knowing the law and the MUTCD, or, you can be a dick. You chose option number 2.
Maybe the neighborhood had a gentlemen's agreement that no one will park on the road during the afternoon dismissal. Kids like and expect routine. They are automatically going to go to where their bus normally is parked. The school asked you nicely to move, figuring you weren't familiar with the routine. Most drivers are just going to go to their truck and move it. You decided to make an issue about it.
Now, you know you can park there. But, that doesn't mean that it's the only law on the books. The school easily could've had a cop go out there since you wanted to be a troublemaker and take a look at your vehicle. Too far from the curb? Ticket. Headlights not level? Ticket. Was it a commercial vehicle? Guess what - you can leave the truck right there as they'll call in for a random truck inspection. You may know about that MUTCD, but do you know the voluminous trucker's regulation book? They'll make your life a living hell.
You finally left, as you said. And the school made a phone call to your boss. Does he really want to deal with something like this? Do you think if you talked about the MUTCD he'd sit back and say "Hey, tell me more?". No...I'm sure he didn't want to deal with crap like that. The school buys supplies from the company. The company wants to keep that contract. Drivers are a dime a dozen. And I'm sure Illinois is a state where an employer can fire you for any reason. So you can claim you had the legal right to park there. The boss has the legal right to fire you. Guess who ultimately wins that one.
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 30, 2019, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 30, 2019, 03:20:00 PM
It is not legally enforceable since it does not use the FHWA alphabet series.
Try to tell that one to a cop :D
Or a judge. We have hundreds of pages on these forums of signs not using the proper font. I'm pretty sure I've yet to hear anyone try to tell a judge the speed limit or restriction isn't valid because it used a different font.
Quote from: Brandon on August 30, 2019, 04:23:16 PM
It depends on who installed the signage. If it is a municipal street and the signage was installed by the school, then it may not be enforceable at all.
It's really not that hard to look up.
http://sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=832&chapter_id=58926#s1190855
And I know...we all read on the internet that if you get a ticket, that we should all immediately cry that the stupid town has no idea what they're doing and the sign probably ain't legal. And sure, we'll find a few stories of someone being successful. And we don't know if this actual code existed back in the day for this street. But the reality is these towns are well versed in how to make something legally enforceable. In this case, the law actually allows for a longer time than posted. If it was between 3:30pm and 4pm, then kp has a leg to stand on. Otherwise, if this happened today, he's screwed.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2019, 08:51:43 PMSo, with something like this, you can look at it two ways: You can stand your ground, knowing the law and the MUTCD, or, you can be a dick. You chose option number 2.
I don't think we know enough to say Kphoger
didn't stand his ground.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2019, 08:51:43 PMMaybe the neighborhood had a gentlemen's agreement that no one will park on the road during the afternoon dismissal.
They might very well have had one, but relying on it is not fair to stranger drivers or, ultimately, to the kids, which I suspect is part of the reason they eventually enacted a no-parking restriction that they have yet to sign properly (see below).
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2019, 08:51:43 PMKids like and expect routine. They are automatically going to go to where their bus normally is parked. The school asked you nicely to move, figuring you weren't familiar with the routine. Most drivers are just going to go to their truck and move it. You decided to make an issue about it.
We don't know that they actually asked nicely. I can see how this situation developed in a way that led the driver of the legally parked vehicle to think bullies had to be stood up to.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2019, 08:51:43 PMYou finally left, as you said. And the school made a phone call to your boss. Does he really want to deal with something like this? Do you think if you talked about the MUTCD he'd sit back and say "Hey, tell me more?". No...I'm sure he didn't want to deal with crap like that. The school buys supplies from the company. The company wants to keep that contract. Drivers are a dime a dozen. And I'm sure Illinois is a state where an employer can fire you for any reason. So you can claim you had the legal right to park there. The boss has the legal right to fire you. Guess who ultimately wins that one.
Recruiting a replacement costs. Also, Kphoger didn't actually say (at least in his original post) that he was driving for a private-sector supplier. Illinois is an at-will state, but Kphoger could have been working for a public-sector organization (such as a consolidated purchasing body) with enhanced protections against termination.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2019, 08:51:43 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on August 30, 2019, 04:07:42 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on August 30, 2019, 03:20:00 PMIt is not legally enforceable since it does not use the FHWA alphabet series.
Try to tell that one to a cop :D
Or a judge. We have hundreds of pages on these forums of signs not using the proper font. I'm pretty sure I've yet to hear anyone try to tell a judge the speed limit or restriction isn't valid because it used a different font.
There is a well-known case of a ticket being thrown out because the sign said "Stoping" instead of "Stopping." I personally would not hesitate to mention a nonconforming typeface to the officer, and to the prosecutor if the officer decided he still had to issue the citation. Telling it to the judge becomes a matter of assessing whether the court fees are well spent. For a person with no warrants and a (mostly) clean record, it is uneconomic to spend $100 in nonrefundable court costs to overturn a $30 parking ticket, even with near-100% certainty of prevailing in court.
As for the
MUTCD, the relevant parts of § 2A.13 that require the use of the FHWA series on signs are bolded (Standard) text. Illinois has adopted the
MUTCD with a supplement that leaves § 2A.13 untouched. While getting a ticket thrown out for failure to use the correct typeface(s) amounts to getting off on a technicality, the onus is still on those who wish to regulate to ensure that they do so with proper form.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 31, 2019, 08:51:43 PMIt's really not that hard to look up.
http://sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=832&chapter_id=58926#s1190855
And I know...we all read on the internet that if you get a ticket, that we should all immediately cry that the stupid town has no idea what they're doing and the sign probably ain't legal. And sure, we'll find a few stories of someone being successful. And we don't know if this actual code existed back in the day for this street. But the reality is these towns are well versed in how to make something legally enforceable. In this case, the law actually allows for a longer time than posted. If it was between 3:30pm and 4pm, then kp has a leg to stand on. Otherwise, if this happened today, he's screwed.
You are right--it is not that hard to look up. The current restriction on Jessup Street is part of Ordinance 1494, which the Carmi city council voted to adopt on December 1, 2015, many years after Kphoger left Illinois.
http://www.cityofcarmi.org/minutes-city-council-meeting-of-december-1st-2015/
Part of the motivation for restricting parking on Jessup was increased congestion due to moving Pre-K to that school building.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 31, 2019, 06:37:05 PM
Lol I was just getting even with him.
Kick his ass, Seabass!
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 31, 2019, 06:38:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 29, 2019, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on August 28, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 28, 2019, 02:11:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
5. People who stop to let someone in/out of a cross street/driveway when they have the right of way and traffic is moving. I mean you, asshole school bus driver, stopping and letting the turning bus through when we are in a line of traffic moving at speed.
I am guilty of doing this at two, maybe three select locations. However, not when moving at speed. Only when overcapacity is such that the whole stream is moving at 10-15 mph, and they are likely to give up and turn right before they ever get a gap.
They do this when busses are leaving my town's high school. Busses who leave from one entrance stop to let the others out that the second entrance. I've always said that if that ever happens to me, I will lay down the horn obnoxiously.
Same thing happens at a school near me. If you were a bus driver and that's what you did for a living, you'd probably do the same thing. They're on a schedule, and I'm pretty sure they know what's most efficient for the system as a whole. You just can't expect normal priorities to apply when driving near a school at arrival or dismissal time.
Um, yes you can, and yes, you should. They can wait like anyone else for traffic to clear first instead of being assholes about it.
Nah. School buses would never run on time in that case. Although I understand the inconvenience, the benefits gained from the buses getting kids home when they need to be outweigh the minutes it may cost you.
Then put a cop there. Or a temp light.
Works well as is.
People who, at a red light, stop beyond the stop bar and block the crosswalk.
People who, after having stopped for a red light, keep inching forward little by little while the light is still red. Yeah, you're really getting places, buddy.
People who slow down to gawk at accidents. It's not there for your amusement; move it!
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 31, 2019, 10:37:02 PM
There is a well-known case of a ticket being thrown out because the sign said "Stoping" instead of "Stopping." I personally would not hesitate to mention a nonconforming typeface to the officer, and to the prosecutor if the officer decided he still had to issue the citation. Telling it to the judge becomes a matter of assessing whether the court fees are well spent. For a person with no warrants and a (mostly) clean record, it is uneconomic to spend $100 in nonrefundable court costs to overturn a $30 parking ticket, even with near-100% certainty of prevailing in court.
As for the MUTCD, the relevant parts of § 2A.13 that require the use of the FHWA series on signs are bolded (Standard) text. Illinois has adopted the MUTCD with a supplement that leaves § 2A.13 untouched. While getting a ticket thrown out for failure to use the correct typeface(s) amounts to getting off on a technicality, the onus is still on those who wish to regulate to ensure that they do so with proper form.
That's a lot of talk for an example that was a spelling error, not a font issue.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 31, 2019, 10:37:02 PM
You are right--it is not that hard to look up. The current restriction on Jessup Street is part of Ordinance 1494, which the Carmi city council voted to adopt on December 1, 2015, many years after Kphoger left Illinois.
http://www.cityofcarmi.org/minutes-city-council-meeting-of-december-1st-2015/
Part of the motivation for restricting parking on Jessup was increased congestion due to moving Pre-K to that school building.
It replaced ordinance 1317. Let me know what that said. A simple change like the hours of restriction will replace the ordinance.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 01, 2019, 02:03:13 AM
It replaced ordinance 1317. Let me know what that said. A simple change like the hours of restriction will replace the ordinance.
You know you're talking to the poster who's the most likely to go to the trouble to actually look that up and tell you what it said, right? :-D
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 01, 2019, 01:46:39 AM
People who, at a red light, stop beyond the stop bar and block the crosswalk.
....
Heh. At the traffic light leaving our neighborhood, it's routine that people waiting to turn left sometimes stop completely beyond the stop bar. Thing is, if you do that, you don't get a green arrow unless someone else pulls up behind you. I always laugh when I see people stuck there. They seem to think the stop bar is irrelevant.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 01, 2019, 01:46:39 AM
People who, at a red light, stop beyond the stop bar and block the crosswalk.
People who, after having stopped for a red light, keep inching forward little by little while the light is still red. Yeah, you're really getting places, buddy.
People who slow down to gawk at accidents. It's not there for your amusement; move it!
This could be solved by adopting a YG phase before the regular green. Like how it's done in the EU.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 01, 2019, 10:47:02 AM
People who, after having stopped for a red light, keep inching forward little by little while the light is still red. Yeah, you're really getting places, buddy.
It really depends on the type of signal. If there's no timer and it's strictly a sensor, sometimes inching forward can trip the sensor if it's not detecting properly. Obviously if it's on a timer though at a major intersection, major thoroughfare, etc. it is of no use practically.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 01, 2019, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 01, 2019, 01:46:39 AM
People who, at a red light, stop beyond the stop bar and block the crosswalk.
People who, after having stopped for a red light, keep inching forward little by little while the light is still red. Yeah, you're really getting places, buddy.
People who slow down to gawk at accidents. It's not there for your amusement; move it!
This could be solved by adopting a YG phase before the regular green. Like how it's done in the EU.
How? The special phase in the EU is to give people driving standards time to shift into gear, and the creeping forward issue is largely an automatic thing.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 01, 2019, 05:00:30 AMQuote from: jeffandnicole on September 01, 2019, 02:03:13 AMIt replaced ordinance 1317. Let me know what that said. A simple change like the hours of restriction will replace the ordinance.
You know you're talking to the poster who's the most likely to go to the trouble to actually look that up and tell you what it said, right? :-D
I just did--the City of Carmi does not appear to have minutes online that far back. I think it is a reasonable inference that Ordinance 1317 did not have the Jessup Street restrictions that Ordinance 1494 does because they were spoken of as new when 1494 was under discussion.
People tailgating when the passing lane is clear. WHY?
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 01, 2019, 10:24:46 PM
People tailgating when the passing lane is clear. WHY?
Even better when your tailgated in the left lane of a mountainous, curvy interstate like I-81 in Virginia over Christiansburg Mountain by a semi when you're already doing 10 mph over (75 mph) and can't go any faster due to traffic in front and can't get over due to more trucks in that lane. Eventually got over, and Mr. trucker thought it'd be a smart idea to punch it to 80 mph nearly running me off the road as I got over, still in a 65 mph zone. Witnessed nearly 4 major accidents in a small period of time by the same inexperienced, reckless truck driver.
At that point I got back over and as this same truck is dangerously passing other trucks around curves still doing 75 - 80 mph, I eventually just backed off, got in the right lane and did 55 mph with the other truckers. No way did I want to get anywhere near that truck.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 02, 2019, 06:57:10 AM
...by the same experienced, reckless truck driver.
Fixed.
The trucker probably knew what he was doing. He was just being an asshole.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 02, 2019, 08:37:15 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 02, 2019, 06:57:10 AM
...by the same experienced, reckless truck driver.
Fixed.
The trucker probably knew what he was doing. He was just being an asshole.
It's all fun and games until everyone slams their brakes if something happens in front, or going around a corner to be greeted by stopped cars.
A car can stop quickly. A truck can't, and the only place he'd end up is in someone's back end, and create a chain reaction causing multiple cars to be wrecked.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 02, 2019, 09:45:15 AM
It's all fun and games until everyone slams their brakes if something happens in front, or going around a corner to be greeted by stopped cars.
A car can stop quickly. A truck can't, and the only place he'd end up is in someone's back end, and create a chain reaction causing multiple cars to be wrecked.
... and multiple people to have to be shoveled up.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 01, 2019, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 01, 2019, 05:00:30 AMQuote from: jeffandnicole on September 01, 2019, 02:03:13 AMIt replaced ordinance 1317. Let me know what that said. A simple change like the hours of restriction will replace the ordinance.
You know you're talking to the poster who's the most likely to go to the trouble to actually look that up and tell you what it said, right? :-D
I just did--the City of Carmi does not appear to have minutes online that far back. I think it is a reasonable inference that Ordinance 1317 did not have the Jessup Street restrictions that Ordinance 1494 does because they were spoken of as new when 1494 was under discussion.
For what it's worth... I was driving in for a private-sector employer, and school customers were our bread and butter. I wasn't alerted to the buses about to line up until halfway through my delivery; although I didn't go out and move my truck right away, I didn't dawdle either. What they perceived to be dawdling was actually me securing my load before driving off. Yes, my boss could have fired me because of that, and that wouldn't have been surprising, as he was well known for counties around as being one of the biggest dicks out there–both mean and cheap. But I wasn't fired or even threatened with being, I wrote them a letter of apology, and we kept the account. So who won? Everyone, I guess.
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2019, 08:10:49 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 27, 2019, 05:19:19 PM
2. People who refuse to enter the intersection to make a left turn on a green ball. It is perfectly legal in Illinois to do so, yet there are folks who refuse to do so.
I have heard this called "staking out a left turn" and "taking control of the intersection".
Same situation here in Virginia, perfectly legal, yet too many people refuse to do it, and in the process prevent one or two vehicles behind them from making it thru on this signal cycle.
Personally, I avoid that tactic unless there's no other way to see around the traffic in the opposing left-turn lane. In most cases, I'd rather play it safe, especially in an unfamiliar intersection.
A) it's a dick move to block the intersection and make everyone else wait at the beginning of their green phase
B) dumb reason to get an overzealously-written ticket, depending on jurisdiction
C) better safe than sorry
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 01:58:37 PM
A) it's a dick move to block the intersection and make everyone else wait at the beginning of their green phase
B) dumb reason to get an overzealously-written ticket, depending on jurisdiction
C) better safe than sorry
Those are reasons that you alone are worried about. For the rest of us...
A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);
B) what would the ticket be for? It's not illegal in most areas;
C) It's dangerous? Surely you have evidence. Generally, "not dangerous until proven otherwise" is the standard.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 01:58:37 PM
A) it's a dick move to block the intersection and make everyone else wait at the beginning of their green phase
B) dumb reason to get an overzealously-written ticket, depending on jurisdiction
C) better safe than sorry
Those are reasons that you alone are worried about. For the rest of us...
A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);
B) what would the ticket be for? It's not illegal in most areas;
C) It's dangerous? Surely you have evidence. Generally, "not dangerous until proven otherwise" is the standard.
Not only is your answer to c correct, I'd go out on a limb to say just driving thru an intersection is less safe than sitting in the intersection waiting to make that turn.
Better safe than sorry is such an overused phrase.
Being that driving a car is one of the most unsafe transportation methods, wouldn't staying at home be "better safe than sorry"? Wouldn't driving the absolute safest vehicle that can legally be driven "better safe than sorry"? How does a driver manage to drive for miles and then suddenly decide that refusing to drive behind the stop line waiting to make a turn is suddenly the point of being better safe than sorry?
Sometimes I enter the intersection, sometimes I wait behind the stop bar. It doesn't necessarily determine whether I go on the yellow/red phase, though. It just determines how long of a path I take to complete my left turn. Sure, entering from behind the stop bar on a yellow might be illegal, but the chances of a cop noticing that minor detail in the split-second it happens are slim.
I will pull into the intersection, but I won't piggyback off someone already in it. A lot of people will make daredevil lefts piggybacking off the person already in the intersection.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
Those are reasons that you alone are worried about. For the rest of us...
First and foremost, don't try to dismiss my argument like that, that's foolish bullshit. If I said I was worried about clowns attacking me from a dirigible, then you can safely say that
I alone have a worry.
I've been hit by a red-light runner before. That's long stopped me from treating most intersections like a drag race.
Usually, I wait behind the stop bar. I can't watch everyone in the intersection all at once.
There could be a patrol car or ambulance coming the other way, and there's the chance they'd override the lights for the intersection.
I've seen my share of clueless drivers and leviathan-like vehicles block intersections.
Misunderstandings between U-turning drivers and ROTR drivers 90-degrees apart.
Other drivers who think that they can "draft" behind you and make the intersection, dangerously flaunting the "being in the intersection" rule.
And it's safer to have your wheels pointed forward, not turned, and that's taught in driver's education classes (and traffic court-insisted re-education classes).
Quote
A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);
I don't understand what you mean by this? Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)
In any case, there's no law saying I can't wait behind the line. I also don't treat each one like a protected left (or right).
Quote
B) what would the ticket be for? It's not illegal in most areas;
I've seen cops chase down intersection-blockers/runners on three separate occasions. All were in Florida. Now there could have been APBs for a precise vehicle match, but that's an amazing coincidence on the verge of "unbelievable".
Quote
C) It's dangerous? Surely you have evidence. Generally, "not dangerous until proven otherwise" is the standard.
Any signalized intersection has the chance to be dangerous. Do you really doubt that no accident could ever be caused by a misunderstanding in an intersection?
Now I didn't say that I will never crawl past the stop bar; it's far less dangerous while having a view of traffic coming down a hill, while I'm facing oncoming traffic. And knowing if I have enough acceleration to do so.
Sorry, I don't shoot photos of every intersection I've ever crossed, and I can't tell you there's an iron-clad rule for every possible scenario for a permissive left turn.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 10, 2019, 02:20:20 PM
Better safe than sorry is such an overused phrase.
Being that driving a car is one of the most unsafe transportation methods, wouldn't staying at home be "better safe than sorry"? Wouldn't driving the absolute safest vehicle that can legally be driven "better safe than sorry"? How does a driver manage to drive for miles and then suddenly decide that refusing to drive behind the stop line waiting to make a turn is suddenly the point of being better safe than sorry?
You forgot the
"many people die in bed, thus we should never sleep" argument. Sorry to waste 60-90 seconds of your life.
I swear some people are so stupid. I was getting on NB I-75 from EB M-46. There is a car in front of me getting on the same way I was and a car getting off for the WB M-46 exit. The car that is getting on decides to come to a stop so the other car couldn't fo anywhere and I had to stop too and the traffic on I-75 is moving at about 80 mph. There is no confusion at this exit just short acceleration and deaccerlation lanes.
Three that immediately come to mind:
1. People who slow down significantly and THEN use their turn signals.
2. People who slow down up to half a mile before the school zone begins.
3. People who instantly bail out of a lane that's closed ahead and create a traffic jam in the open lane(s).
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
....
.... Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)
A second or two of all-red is pretty common here, but I've never thought it was to allow for turning left.
The thing that's annoying me lately is people who start slowing down way in advance when the light ahead is red such that it makes it hard to get to the left-turn lane in time to get the green arrow (or to get into the right-turn lane at all). I don't think it's incompetence so much as it's being inconsiderate and not thinking about anyone else, and that opinion is underscored by the woman who got mad Sunday when I honked at her to keep moving and she honked back (pointless response) and then gave me the finger as I went past in the turn lane (I just missed the light, too, thanks to her).
1. A road closure on a freeway here is causing the closure of two of the three lanes on the freeway, and the drivers wait until the very last second to merge and that slows down traffic even more than it already is as it requires drivers to make room for others to enter.
2. People who get in the left lane way before their exit on at-grade expressways (ex: 65 to branson or 31 in Indiana), preventing passing. This creates a dangerous situation when trying to pass a large vehicle, as you will be in the blind spot for much longer.
I like zipper merging for city environments.
The Absolute Worst, is on two lane roads when I go to pass someone and they speed up. WHY? :banghead:
You have left me with two terrible options: (1) Speed up beyond what is safe/reasonable to get past, or (2) Get back behind you, only to inevitably slow down to your preferred speed (which is obviously slower than mine, or I wouldn't have tried to pass you in the first place!).
I have concluded that only true control-freaks would engage in this behavior.
Quote from: webny99 on September 11, 2019, 11:19:47 AM
The Absolute Worst, is on two lane roads when I go to pass someone and they speed up. WHY? :banghead:
You have left me with two terrible options: (1) Speed up beyond what is safe/reasonable to get past, or (2) Get back behind you, only to inevitably slow down to your preferred speed (which is obviously slower than mine, or I wouldn't have tried to pass you in the first place!).
I have concluded that only true control-freaks would engage in this behavior.
Got caught behind someone doing ~65 mph in a 75 mph zone on a two-laner in Texas once, stuck behind them for miles before I got an opportunity, and when I finally went for it, they sped up to the speed limit
(I was in the opposing lane doing the pass at around 77 mph and they were side by side now) and at that point I was done dealing with them and just punched it till I got beyond them, hitting ~90 mph. Sure enough, as soon as I got back over and slowed down to ~77 mph, they were now way behind me crawling back at their previous speed.
Interestingly enough, they attempted to pull over on the shoulder two times to let me pass, though did not fully get into the shoulder lane which means if I went for it, I'd have to slightly use the opposing lane, and both times there was a large semi coming. I've never been hit by a semi head on doing 70 mph, though I don't imagine it'd be fun.
Sometimes drivers can be quite idiots.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
Those are reasons that you alone are worried about. For the rest of us...
First and foremost, don't try to dismiss my argument like that, that's foolish bullshit. If I said I was worried about clowns attacking me from a dirigible, then you can safely say that I alone have a worry.
Fine, I'll give you that. You are far from the only person I've seen to not pull out. But the vast majority of people that I've talked to, who don't pull forward (usually because I was in the backseat observing their driving, and then asked them), it's usually because they think it would be running a red light if they couldn't turn in a gap, not because of everything else you've listed...
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
I've been hit by a red-light runner before. That's long stopped me from treating most intersections like a drag race.
My eyes almost rolled out of my head.
You've had one accident, and now every intersection is something incredibly dangerous and needs to be approached with an insane amount of caution. Am I wrong?
Actually, don't respond to that. I know what you'll say: I'm not giving it enough thought, and that I'm the foolish one.
Here's my response: it's a god-damn left turn. We're not trying to launch a fucking space shuttle. If any of those bizarre situations come up (U-turn conflict, emergency vehicles, etc) then you can deal with that when it comes to it. But otherwise, it's really quite a simple thing. Always be observant, of course. I'm not saying you should throw all care to the wind. That would be foolish. But to, perhaps, imply that the only truly safe option is to wait behind the line, is so far off from the truth. I've somehow gone the past eight years without a single crash related to this maneuver, and neither have any of my family members (many of whom are much older than you); this is hardly concrete evidence, but I'm fairly certain that your reasons for not pulling forward are no less anecdotal.
Honestly, the most common incident I see related to this maneuver, is a car finishing their turn on yellow/red but an oncoming car blows the red. If the driver of the turning vehicle was paying attention, they would have spotted this speeding car. Not saying they asked for it, but they weren't being observant.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);
I don't understand what you mean by this? Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)
All-red clearance phases are most common in states with permissive yellow laws. They allow two things: drivers who just entered the intersection (right before the red light came up) to finish their movement, and to allow traffic waiting to turn left to finish their turn without blocking the traffic on the side-street. Usually, the phase lasts one or two seconds. Are you saying that most lights in your area have no time between the conclusion of the yellow phase for street A, and the green phase for street B?
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
B) what would the ticket be for? It's not illegal in most areas;
I've seen cops chase down intersection-blockers/runners on three separate occasions. All were in Florida. Now there could have been APBs for a precise vehicle match, but that's an amazing coincidence on the verge of "unbelievable".
Those drivers would be receiving tickets for something that is standard practice in much of the country, and is not considered red-light-running or intersection-blocking. Around here, it's not "running a red light" unless you cross the stop line on red. Being in the intersection has nothing to do with the state of the signal, unless it turns red and you don't clear the intersection;
that would be blocking.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
C) It's dangerous? Surely you have evidence. Generally, "not dangerous until proven otherwise" is the standard.
Any signalized intersection has the chance to be dangerous. Do you really doubt that no accident could ever be caused by a misunderstanding in an intersection?
Certainly possible. But as I mentioned earlier, a far larger number of crashes seem to occur because driver A fails to observe something: a red light, a pedestrian, another car, a signal pole, etc. Often times because they are drunk, using their phone, or even speeding. But a misunderstanding? Like failing to recognize when someone else has the right-of-way? Probably some crashes, but probably not a majority.
In any scenario, neither of us has any more than anecdotal evidence on our side. Which is why I stand by my statement that pulling forward should be considered a safe movement unless there's evidence to the contrary. I have seen crashes related to left turns with permissive phasing, but they don't have anything to do with pulling forward or otherwise.
For the record, I have seen at least one crash (extremely minor) where a driver waiting behind the stop line started to go because they saw a gap opening, but then slammed on the brakes when the yellow light came up (even though it's not illegal to enter on yellow around here, even from a stop). The car behind them bumped into them, thinking they would continue with their turn (we don't use many left-side signals around here, so the car behind the front car could not see the signal). If the front car pulled into the intersection, there would be no need to slam on the brakes to avoid entering a yellow or red light, and thereby causing a crash.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Other drivers who think that they can "draft" behind you and make the intersection, dangerously flaunting the "being in the intersection" rule.
Sorry, what? What's the "being in the intersection" rule?
It's standard procedure here for cars to pull out behind the front car. Having two or three cars waiting beyond the stop line is not unusual nor illegal. A 2-second all-red phase generally keeps the second or third car from giving the appearance of "blocking", should no gap develop. But if that last car took to long to turn, I've heard that police could issue a ticket for blocking. But I've never seen or heard of this actually happening, and I bet it would be an easy ticket to fight.
Jake, if you see a rental car in the Seattle area, shake your fist at it...it might be me.
End of discussion on my part, I'll continue to do what is safest in my mind and legal in the eyes of the law, while the rest can waste time complaining about it on the internet.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2019, 12:04:59 AM
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
Those are reasons that you alone are worried about. For the rest of us...
First and foremost, don't try to dismiss my argument like that, that's foolish bullshit. If I said I was worried about clowns attacking me from a dirigible, then you can safely say that I alone have a worry.
Fine, I'll give you that. You are far from the only person I've seen to not pull out. But the vast majority of people that I've talked to, who don't pull forward (usually because I was in the backseat observing their driving, and then asked them), it's usually because they think it would be running a red light if they couldn't turn in a gap, not because of everything else you've listed...
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
I've been hit by a red-light runner before. That's long stopped me from treating most intersections like a drag race.
My eyes almost rolled out of my head.
You've had one accident, and now every intersection is something incredibly dangerous and needs to be approached with an insane amount of caution. Am I wrong?
Actually, don't respond to that. I know what you'll say: I'm not giving it enough thought, and that I'm the foolish one.
Here's my response: it's a god-damn left turn. We're not trying to launch a fucking space shuttle. If any of those bizarre situations come up (U-turn conflict, emergency vehicles, etc) then you can deal with that when it comes to it. But otherwise, it's really quite a simple thing. Always be observant, of course. I'm not saying you should throw all care to the wind. That would be foolish. But to, perhaps, imply that the only truly safe option is to wait behind the line, is so far off from the truth. I've somehow gone the past eight years without a single crash related to this maneuver, and neither have any of my family members (many of whom are much older than you); this is hardly concrete evidence, but I'm fairly certain that your reasons for not pulling forward are no less anecdotal.
Honestly, the most common incident I see related to this maneuver, is a car finishing their turn on yellow/red but an oncoming car blows the red. If the driver of the turning vehicle was paying attention, they would have spotted this speeding car. Not saying they asked for it, but they weren't being observant.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);
I don't understand what you mean by this? Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)
All-red clearance phases are most common in states with permissive yellow laws. They allow two things: drivers who just entered the intersection (right before the red light came up) to finish their movement, and to allow traffic waiting to turn left to finish their turn without blocking the traffic on the side-street. Usually, the phase lasts one or two seconds. Are you saying that most lights in your area have no time between the conclusion of the yellow phase for street A, and the green phase for street B?
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
B) what would the ticket be for? It's not illegal in most areas;
I've seen cops chase down intersection-blockers/runners on three separate occasions. All were in Florida. Now there could have been APBs for a precise vehicle match, but that's an amazing coincidence on the verge of "unbelievable".
Those drivers would be receiving tickets for something that is standard practice in much of the country, and is not considered red-light-running or intersection-blocking. Around here, it's not "running a red light" unless you cross the stop line on red. Being in the intersection has nothing to do with the state of the signal, unless it turns red and you don't clear the intersection; that would be blocking.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
C) It's dangerous? Surely you have evidence. Generally, "not dangerous until proven otherwise" is the standard.
Any signalized intersection has the chance to be dangerous. Do you really doubt that no accident could ever be caused by a misunderstanding in an intersection?
Certainly possible. But as I mentioned earlier, a far larger number of crashes seem to occur because driver A fails to observe something: a red light, a pedestrian, another car, a signal pole, etc. Often times because they are drunk, using their phone, or even speeding. But a misunderstanding? Like failing to recognize when someone else has the right-of-way? Probably some crashes, but probably not a majority.
In any scenario, neither of us has any more than anecdotal evidence on our side. Which is why I stand by my statement that pulling forward should be considered a safe movement unless there's evidence to the contrary. I have seen crashes related to left turns with permissive phasing, but they don't have anything to do with pulling forward or otherwise.
For the record, I have seen at least one crash (extremely minor) where a driver waiting behind the stop line started to go because they saw a gap opening, but then slammed on the brakes when the yellow light came up (even though it's not illegal to enter on yellow around here, even from a stop). The car behind them bumped into them, thinking they would continue with their turn (we don't use many left-side signals around here, so the car behind the front car could not see the signal). If the front car pulled into the intersection, there would be no need to slam on the brakes to avoid entering a yellow or red light, and thereby causing a crash.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Other drivers who think that they can "draft" behind you and make the intersection, dangerously flaunting the "being in the intersection" rule.
Sorry, what? What's the "being in the intersection" rule?
It's standard procedure here for cars to pull out behind the front car. Having two or three cars waiting beyond the stop line is not unusual nor illegal. A 2-second all-red phase generally keeps the second or third car from giving the appearance of "blocking", should no gap develop. But if that last car took to long to turn, I've heard that police could issue a ticket for blocking. But I've never seen or heard of this actually happening, and I bet it would be an easy ticket to fight.
Unless the law specifically states he
required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.
Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 12, 2019, 07:11:19 AM
Unless the law specifically states he required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.
Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.
I rarely have a case where I cannot "stake out a left turn" at a signalized intersection. This generally presupposes a left turn lane and that is most commonly found on a 4-lane divided road, and these intersections are typically large enough that they can contain 1 to 3 vehicles ahead of the stop bar, and allow space for the opposing left-turners to do the same.
Like "right turn on red" you have a legal right to abstain from this maneuver if you choose, but is that really fair to other drivers who are willing to use this maneuver?
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
And it's safer to have your wheels pointed forward, not turned, and that's taught in driver's education classes (and traffic court-insisted re-education classes).
Absolutely true...although you can have your wheels straight while within the intersection, so not sure what this has to do with not entering the intersection.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
A) there is no blocking in jurisdictions that use all-red clearance phases (maybe yours doesn't);
I don't understand what you mean by this? Do you mean a moment when nobody has a green phase? I have seen very few intersections with a few seconds of all-red, so as to assume that no crossroads have it. (Although, I do know of a few with extended yellow phases.)
I would be very surprised if these intersections you normally travel thru don't have all red phases. They are generally built into every traffic light cycle. If you're not noticing this, that's an issue.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 12, 2019, 07:11:19 AM
Unless the law specifically states he required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.
Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.
Yup...there's that phrase again!
And it's laughable that you follow that up by saying you'll enter the intersection on red.
And finally...not every intersection has a green arrow.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
There could be a patrol car or ambulance coming the other way, and there's the chance they'd override the lights for the intersection.
Very unlikely, and in most jurisdictions, the activation mode is clearly visible on the mast arms or poles near the intersection.
Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2019, 05:58:07 PM
I've seen cops chase down intersection-blockers/runners on three separate occasions. All were in Florida. Now there could have been APBs for a precise vehicle match, but that's an amazing coincidence on the verge of "unbelievable".
Or maybe they were caught doing something else, and the cop waited until after the intersection to activate his lights. If the cops were activating their flashing lights within the intersection, that usually indicates they want to get around traffic. The lawbreaker would probably just sit there. There's methods behind their way of doing things.
Quote from: Beltway on September 12, 2019, 07:22:14 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 12, 2019, 07:11:19 AM
Unless the law specifically states he required to pull forward, it's his decision as to if he wants to do it or not. He's less likely to get in an accident by staying put and waiting a couple of minutes for a green arrow rather than trying to hurry through the intersection - that's just a fact. In his mind, if waiting could prevent another major accident, that's what he's going to do.
Quite frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry in that situation. I will enter the intersection and go when it's clear on red, but only when I feel it's safe. And sometime, I will just play it safe and wait back. Do you have an issue with every driver who waits or is more cautious than you? All this post seems to be is you criticizing his more cautious driving habits because you have to wait an extra minute, and at the same time, the chance of a wreck blocking the intersection is significantly reduced.
Like "right turn on red" you have a legal right to abstain from this maneuver if you choose, but is that really fair to other drivers who are willing to use this maneuver?
I'd counter that by saying:
is it fair to make the drivers on their green phase to lose 1-2 seconds of their right-of-way movements? If it doesn't affect anyone, doesn't alter anyone else's course, then it doesn't bother me either...it's fair enough.
I never said I don't do it, either...but for an unfamiliar intersection and/or questionable visibility...I'll stop at the line of moving up gives me no advantage to making a left turn. I tend to drive in a lot of unfamiliar places
every week which has a lot to do with my cautious behavior.
Again, there's too many considerations to say there's a hard-and-fast rule for this; that's kind of why I don't get the fuss. But it sure as shit isn't due to my incompetence — the title of the thread.
To my way of thinking, the biggest disadvantage to staking out a left turn is the reduced visibility of oncoming traffic when there is a vehicle in an opposite-facing left-turn lane also waiting to turn left. Your view of oncoming traffic is more constrained the closer you are to a vehicle in front of you that is blocking your view. In some countries it is customary for two opposite-facing left-turning vehicles to advance past each other so that neither is occluding the other's view, but that does not work well with how left-turn facilities are marked in this country, and so few Americans are aware of this custom that an attempt to execute it would likely result in an accident.
Left-turn visibility issues can be largely prevented by laterally offsetting left-turn lanes, but few roads have median widths large enough to allow this.
My understanding of the legal position is that once you clear the stop bar, even if it is to stake out a left turn, you are no longer governed by the signal. This doesn't just mean that you are free to make the turn once the oncoming yellow-light runners have cleared the intersection. It also means that if you arrive at the intersection on a red and overrun the stop bar, even if you stop in a position that does not conflict with cross traffic, you have technically run the light and can be ticketed.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 12, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
To my way of thinking, the biggest disadvantage to staking out a left turn is the reduced visibility of oncoming traffic when there is a vehicle in an opposite-facing left-turn lane also waiting to turn left.
If the opposing way is not completely visible due to traffic then I wait until it is and I don't turn until I know it is clear.
If that means waiting until the light turns yellow, then I do that and make sure that no light-runner is coming the other way.
Quote from: formulanone on September 12, 2019, 09:38:50 AM
I'd counter that by saying: is it fair to make the drivers on their green phase to lose 1-2 seconds of their right-of-way movements?
It's more fair than making the left-turning drivers behind you wait another full light cycle. This is the single biggest issue I have with people who won't pull a little bit into the intersection, and in busy intersections, that left-turn time is a lot more valuable than straight-through green time. If everyone waited slightly past the stop bar, it would guarantee that at least two cars can make a left per cycle. Speaking from personal experience, I've been the second car in a left-turn line and waited three light cycles because the guy in front didn't pull into the intersection and refused to turn left on the yellow, even after I honked at him on cycle 2.
You guys would hate the traffic light at (M-58) State Street and Hemmeter in Saginaw Township. It has no turn arrow for left turning traffic in any direction. If you are going from EB State to NB Hemmeter you have to wait for three oncoming lanes to clear and usually only one car gets to turn per green light. This on a street that sees around 30,000 vpd. This is also one of the most dangerous intersections in Saginaw County. MDOT has been told numerous times about the nature of the intersection and does nothing about it. Even with State being repaved this summer they didn't do anything to that intersection.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 12, 2019, 02:19:11 PM
You guys would hate the traffic light at (M-58) State Street and Hemmeter in Saginaw Township. It has no turn arrow for left turning traffic in any direction. If you are going from EB State to NB Hemmeter you have to wait for three oncoming lanes to clear and usually only one car gets to turn per green light. This on a street that sees around 30,000 vpd. This is also one of the most dangerous intersections in Saginaw County. MDOT has been told numerous times about the nature of the intersection and does nothing about it. Even with State being repaved this summer they didn't do anything to that intersection.
Poor intersection design is a problem anywhere ...
Quote from: US 89 on September 12, 2019, 01:52:41 PM
Quote from: formulanone on September 12, 2019, 09:38:50 AM
I'd counter that by saying: is it fair to make the drivers on their green phase to lose 1-2 seconds of their right-of-way movements?
It's more fair than making the left-turning drivers behind you wait another full light cycle. This is the single biggest issue I have with people who won't pull a little bit into the intersection, and in busy intersections, that left-turn time is a lot more valuable than straight-through green time. If everyone waited slightly past the stop bar, it would guarantee that at least two cars can make a left per cycle. Speaking from personal experience, I've been the second car in a left-turn line and waited three light cycles because the guy in front didn't pull into the intersection and refused to turn left on the yellow, even after I honked at him on cycle 2.
Fully agree.
When there's no green arrow, and there's a line to turn left, it bugs me to no end if only one car, or worse, nobody at all, goes at the end of the light cycle. If I was the
third car in line, I would probably go as well, but my absolute minimum expectation is for the first two to get out of there on yellow/red.
I would think it should be obvious that left-turning green time is exponentially more valuable than straight-through time. Through traffic is guaranteed to flow unhindered on green, while left-turning traffic has anywhere from a 100% to a 0% chance of being able to move on green. Left-turning traffic absolutely deserves to own a few seconds of the cross-traffic's green light, especially at locations like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1532844,-77.4849178,3a,75y,354.96h,91.04t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1saRK2cfEX4lDTVUvtfMaCaw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DaRK2cfEX4lDTVUvtfMaCaw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D79.51919%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100), where green space is literally allocated 85%-15% in favor of the busier road. Heck, traffic on NY 286 could sit there for another red cycle again as long as the existing red, and
still clear the intersection with time to spare, and they get that massive cushion while there are delays of up to 10 or more light cycles for northbound traffic turning left.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 12, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
To my way of thinking, the biggest disadvantage to staking out a left turn is the reduced visibility of oncoming traffic when there is a vehicle in an opposite-facing left-turn lane also waiting to turn left. Your view of oncoming traffic is more constrained the closer you are to a vehicle in front of you that is blocking your view. In some countries it is customary for two opposite-facing left-turning vehicles to advance past each other so that neither is occluding the other's view, but that does not work well with how left-turn facilities are marked in this country, and so few Americans are aware of this custom that an attempt to execute it would likely result in an accident.
I have a hard time picturing how that would even work.
Pacing was brought up earlier. I notice every time I'm in the right lane approaching a slower vehicle, there's a car already approaching for an overtake in the left lane moving at a speed fast enough that he should be past me before I have to brake or disengage the cruise. And then for whatever reason he slows down to match my speed when he gets alongside me and I have to reduce speed. Incredibly irritating and happens consistently.
Its simple.
1) Green ball phase. Permissive left turn.
2) Move into position for left turn.
3) Give way to traffic/peds
4) Turn left
5) Profit
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 15, 2019, 03:49:19 PM
Its simple.
1) Green ball phase. Permissive left turn.
2) Move into position for left turn.
3) Give way to traffic/peds
4) Turn left
5) Profit
That's basically how I look at it. But others don't consider it that straight-forward. For better or worse.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 10, 2019, 07:39:08 PM
The thing that's annoying me lately is people who start slowing down way in advance when the light ahead is red such that it makes it hard to get to the left-turn lane in time to get the green arrow (or to get into the right-turn lane at all). I don't think it's incompetence so much as it's being inconsiderate and not thinking about anyone else
Or these people are simply heeding the common advice to slow down and speed up gradually in order to improve fuel economy and brake wear.
Quote from: kphoger on September 16, 2019, 01:34:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 10, 2019, 07:39:08 PM
The thing that's annoying me lately is people who start slowing down way in advance when the light ahead is red such that it makes it hard to get to the left-turn lane in time to get the green arrow (or to get into the right-turn lane at all). I don't think it's incompetence so much as it's being inconsiderate and not thinking about anyone else
Or these people are simply heeding the common advice to slow down and speed up gradually in order to improve fuel economy and brake wear.
Or the people who don't feel like flying up and slamming their brakes for the sake of being more cautious.
When I'm driving, I'm more concerned about myself and my vehicle rather than the person behind me's ability to make a green light.
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis. If I'm following behind a driver, and I see a red light in the distance, my expectation is that I will eventually have to slow down, unless it changes to green. But then the car in front decides they want to brake now (even though at this speed, the light may change), which causes me to apply my brakes unevenly (I didn't expect them to start braking this early). At this point, a rubber-band braking effect begins to form behind us, and who knows what kind of traffic issues that could create.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis. If I'm following behind a driver, and I see a red light in the distance, my expectation is that I will eventually have to slow down, unless it changes to green. But then the car in front decides they want to brake now (even though at this speed, the light may change), which causes me to apply my brakes unevenly (I didn't expect them to start braking this early). At this point, a rubber-band braking effect begins to form behind us, and who knows what kind of traffic issues that could create.
I don't necessarily brake in advanced, but I will let off the gas until I come near the intersection to the point I need to brake.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.
Not my problem.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 16, 2019, 08:14:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis. If I'm following behind a driver, and I see a red light in the distance, my expectation is that I will eventually have to slow down, unless it changes to green. But then the car in front decides they want to brake now (even though at this speed, the light may change), which causes me to apply my brakes unevenly (I didn't expect them to start braking this early). At this point, a rubber-band braking effect begins to form behind us, and who knows what kind of traffic issues that could create.
I don't necessarily brake in advanced, but I will let off the gas until I come near the intersection to the point I need to brake.
That's more normal than I think you realize. But if you're letting off the gas, say, three blocks ahead of time, that's excessive.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on September 16, 2019, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.
Not my problem.
Uhh, yes it is. When your early braking creates unnecessary traffic jams. Drive with consideration...that's my mantra.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2019, 02:49:42 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on September 16, 2019, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.
Not my problem.
Uhh, yes it is. When your early braking creates unnecessary traffic jams. Drive with consideration...that's my mantra.
Or worse. I've seen multiple rear-end collisions occur because of this crap. Be considerate of others on the road with you.
This is from another forum to which I belong. It's in a thread called "Things that are pissing me the fuck off."
Quote from: CapsnNatsQuote from: hockeysc23Cell phone use at a light. Seems I have to honk at someone not paying attention to a light turning green almost everyday now. You can look at their mirror and see their head down looking at their phone. What's so damn important you have to check while driving? Why not use Siri to read you a text or respond.
Why use Siri? Just another intrusion into my privacy by corporate America. Besides, I've always got you to let me know the light has changed. Thanks.
:-D :-D :-D
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 17, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
This is from another forum to which I belong. It's in a thread called "Things that are pissing me the fuck off."
Quote from: CapsnNatsQuote from: hockeysc23Cell phone use at a light. Seems I have to honk at someone not paying attention to a light turning green almost everyday now. You can look at their mirror and see their head down looking at their phone. What's so damn important you have to check while driving? Why not use Siri to read you a text or respond.
Why use Siri? Just another intrusion into my privacy by corporate America. Besides, I've always got you to let me know the light has changed. Thanks.
:-D :-D :-D
And then theres android users..
SM-G965U
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 16, 2019, 08:14:12 PM
I don't necessarily brake in advanced, but I will let off the gas until I come near the intersection to the point I need to brake.
Yeah.
1995hoo didn't say anything about these people braking. All he said is that they were slowing down.
Still, though, there are plenty of times that I choose to brake to slow down a little bit when a light far ahead of me turns red–rather than brake all the way to a near-stop right when it turns green and then have to accelerate all the way back up again. A little bit of braking is preferable to accelerating from 3 mph back up to cruising speed. This is especially true on highways or other roads posted for high speeds.
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2019, 10:28:42 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2019, 02:49:42 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on September 16, 2019, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.
Not my problem.
Uhh, yes it is. When your early braking creates unnecessary traffic jams. Drive with consideration...that's my mantra.
Or worse. I've seen multiple rear-end collisions occur because of this crap. Be considerate of others on the road with you.
Let me get this straight? A stoplight turned red, a driver braked, someone rear-ended him, and you're claiming it's somehow
not the fault of the person who rear-ended him?
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2019, 02:49:42 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on September 16, 2019, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.
Not my problem.
Uhh, yes it is. When your early braking creates unnecessary traffic jams. Drive with consideration...that's my mantra.
Of course I'm not advocating for people driving unnecessarily slow. But it
is the responsibility of the person behind me to
pay attention and keep a safe following distance, regardless of what I'm doing.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 14, 2019, 08:38:00 PM
Pacing was brought up earlier. I notice every time I’m in the right lane approaching a slower vehicle, there’s a car already approaching for an overtake in the left lane moving at a speed fast enough that he should be past me before I have to brake or disengage the cruise. And then for whatever reason he slows down to match my speed when he gets alongside me and I have to reduce speed. Incredibly irritating and happens consistently.
Easily resolved by putting your blinker on. If that doesn't work, very slowly start to move into this person's lane and they'll get the picture.
There is no defensible reason to lurk in somebody's blind spot on a rural freeway and people doing that might be my biggest pet peeve. It's not that hard to bump your cruise up 2 MPH for ten seconds to get around me in a safe and expeditious fashion.
And on a rural freeway with little traffic don't start passing somebody if you can't finish the pass before they catch up to the car in front of them - don't force them to brake because you want to speed but refusr to go another five MPH faster for a few seconds to get around then quickly
Quote from: kphoger on September 17, 2019, 02:05:43 PM
Let me get this straight? A stoplight turned red, a driver braked, someone rear-ended him, and you're claiming it's somehow not the fault of the person who rear-ended him?
You're more likely to get into a collision by flying up to the intersection at full speed then braking last minute, as some posters seem to require in their standards, rather than easing your speed down.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 17, 2019, 07:16:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 17, 2019, 02:05:43 PM
Let me get this straight? A stoplight turned red, a driver braked, someone rear-ended him, and you're claiming it's somehow not the fault of the person who rear-ended him?
You're more likely to get into a collision by flying up to the intersection at full speed then braking last minute, as some posters seem to require in their standards, rather than easing your speed down.
You know damn well that's not what we're advocating.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on September 17, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2019, 02:49:42 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on September 16, 2019, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
My primary beef with early braking is that drivers generally don't expect it from vehicles that aren't fully-loaded semis.
Not my problem.
Uhh, yes it is. When your early braking creates unnecessary traffic jams. Drive with consideration...that's my mantra.
Of course I'm not advocating for people driving unnecessarily slow. But it is the responsibility of the person behind me to pay attention and keep a safe following distance, regardless of what I'm doing.
Well, yeah. Thank you captain obvious. But if you drive unpredictably, i.e. slowing down way before anyone else reasonably would, it shouldn't be that surprising if someone hits you or beeps at you; you did something they didn't expect.
Quote from: kphoger on September 17, 2019, 02:05:43 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2019, 10:28:42 AM
Or worse. I've seen multiple rear-end collisions occur because of this crap. Be considerate of others on the road with you.
Let me get this straight? A stoplight turned red, a driver braked, someone rear-ended him, and you're claiming it's somehow not the fault of the person who rear-ended him?
See my response to
MNHighwayMan; you don't drive in your own little bubble. You have to drive in a predictable manner to avoid being hit. If you get hit because someone didn't expect you to slow down as early as you did, it is both of your faults: his for not paying attention, and yours for doing something most drivers wouldn't reasonably expect in the first place.
Heh. That wouldn't stand up in court: "But I didn't expect him to hit his brakes, Your Honor! So, it's his fault, too!"
"Bailiff, club this man."
Quote
See my response to MNHighwayMan; you don't drive in your own little bubble. You have to drive in a predictable manner to avoid being hit. If you get hit because someone didn't expect you to slow down as early as you did, it is both of your faults: his for not paying attention, and yours for doing something most drivers wouldn't reasonably expect in the first place.
The car who hit the other car would be the one at fault, not the person slowing down.
Just because they didn't slow down according to your standards (which you seem real strict on) doesn't automatically make you hitting them not responsible.
Hey, fellas: I don't care whose fault it was; a crash still occurred, and you now have to deal with the consequences. Car that needs repairing, increased insurance rates, etc.
If you believe you can roll through a green light, instead of having to stop for it, by slowing down early, I have no objections to that. It's more efficient, and I do the same thing at times.
However, applying the brakes is not a necessary an integral part of doing this. If you're looking that far in advance, you can almost always get the same result by simply easing off the gas. Actually using the brakes way, way in advance, is just foolish, unnecessary, and disruptive.
I think all these posts have essentially proven my point that braking way in advance for a traffic light, especially when the guy behind you has his blinker on and is trying to reach the turn lane in time for the green arrow, is an annoying behavior that in many cases is not caused by incompetence.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2019, 10:13:19 PM
But if you drive unpredictably, i.e. slowing down way before anyone else reasonably would, it shouldn't be that surprising if someone hits you or beeps at you; you did something they didn't expect.
Depending on the jurisdiction, and the situation, they could receive a summons.
Some of the articles about "brake checking" say that this is illegal in most places and can be cited for reckless driving or unsafe stop.
This from California --
22109 CVC (Unsafe stop)
No person shall stop or suddenly decrease the speed of a vehicle on a highway without first giving an appropriate signal.
22400 CVC (Impeding or blocking traffic)
No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and
reasonable movement of traffic. No person shall bring a vehicle to a complete stop upon a highway so as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic unless the stop is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.
. . . . . .
In the case of 22109 CVC, while your brake lights always illuminate when you apply the brakes, the appropriate signal for an unusual or emergency stop would be the 4-way flashers.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 17, 2019, 11:20:53 PM
The car who hit the other car would be the one at fault, not the person slowing down.
Actually, in a rear-end collision, the standard in most states is that the person who hits the car in front of them is presumed to be at least fifty percent at fault, not 100 percent. If the person who was hit did something erratic or unexpected (like suddenly slamming on their brakes), they could be found at least partially culpable for the crash.
Quote from: webny99 on September 18, 2019, 08:36:18 AM
If you believe you can roll through a green light, instead of having to stop for it, by slowing down early, I have no objections to that. It's more efficient, and I do the same thing at times.
However, applying the brakes is not a necessary an integral part of doing this. If you're looking that far in advance, you can almost always get the same result by simply easing off the gas. Actually using the brakes way, way in advance, is just foolish, unnecessary, and disruptive.
Well, that depends entirely on when you expect the light to turn green. Simply easing off the gas often won't slow you down enough to where you can breeze through the upcoming green light. Often, that extra -5 or -10 mph that braking affords is what makes the difference.
I like to cross fresh greens on a roll too, but in terms of energy dissipation and the behavioral parameters under which the following driver operates, I tend to find it works better to brake late rather than early. The energy dissipated through the brakes is less when going from 15 MPH to 10 MPH than it is when going from 35 MPH to 30 MPH--the speed change is the same but kinetic energy is proportional to the square of speed, so the brakes have to dissipate 2.6 times the energy at the higher final speed. Also, following drivers tend not to expect braking between signals unless a turn is signalled. Illumination of the brake lamps does give them some warning, but coastdown as opposed to braking gives them more time and space to react.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 23, 2019, 02:27:05 PM
I like to cross fresh greens on a roll too, but in terms of energy dissipation and the behavioral parameters under which the following driver operates, I tend to find it works better to brake late rather than early. The energy dissipated through the brakes is less when going from 15 MPH to 10 MPH than it is when going from 35 MPH to 30 MPH--the speed change is the same but kinetic energy is proportional to the square of speed, so the brakes have to dissipate 2.6 times the energy at the higher final speed. Also, following drivers tend not to expect braking between signals unless a turn is signalled. Illumination of the brake lamps does give them some warning, but coastdown as opposed to braking gives them more time and space to react.
But it's not my brakes I'm concerned about when doing this sort of thing. I'm more interested in the gas mileage difference between having to speed up from 15 mph or less when the light turns green
vs having to speed up from the 35 or 40 mph that I slowed down to ahead of time.
Am I the only one who isn't keen at rolling right through a light, right as it turns green (as opposed to two or three seconds after it turns green)? Someone could easily be entering the intersection from the other direction "late", and there could be a collision. Hell, even between you and someone who was already in the intersection finishing their turn.
Quote from: kphoger on September 23, 2019, 02:31:42 PMBut it's not my brakes I'm concerned about when doing this sort of thing. I'm more interested in the gas mileage difference between having to speed up from 15 mph or less when the light turns green vs having to speed up from the 35 or 40 mph that I slowed down to ahead of time.
To improve gas mileage, I would be looking to trade off in favor of coastdown time as this extends the time the throttle is almost fully closed, resulting in little air reaching the cylinders and thus less fuel required for a stoichiometric mixture while the engine turns over at essentially the same RPM. But YMMV (excuse pun!) depending on whether the car is designed to provide engine braking during coastdown at typical city street speeds. Many smaller cars (e.g., the Saturn and the Honda in the family) are, while others (e.g., the Toyota also in the family) are not.
Quote from: kphoger on September 23, 2019, 02:31:42 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 23, 2019, 02:27:05 PM
I like to cross fresh greens on a roll too, but in terms of energy dissipation and the behavioral parameters under which the following driver operates, I tend to find it works better to brake late rather than early. The energy dissipated through the brakes is less when going from 15 MPH to 10 MPH than it is when going from 35 MPH to 30 MPH--the speed change is the same but kinetic energy is proportional to the square of speed, so the brakes have to dissipate 2.6 times the energy at the higher final speed. Also, following drivers tend not to expect braking between signals unless a turn is signalled. Illumination of the brake lamps does give them some warning, but coastdown as opposed to braking gives them more time and space to react.
But it's not my brakes I'm concerned about when doing this sort of thing. I'm more interested in the gas mileage difference between having to speed up from 15 mph or less when the light turns green vs having to speed up from the 35 or 40 mph that I slowed down to ahead of time.
Often at a cost of cars behind you missing the light...
I guess I can add another one to annoying habbits list: driving like the only car on the road, regardless of consequences for those around.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2019, 02:42:53 PM
Am I the only one who isn't keen at rolling right through a light, right as it turns green (as opposed to two or three seconds after it turns green)? Someone could easily be entering the intersection from the other direction "late", and there could be a collision. Hell, even between you and someone who was already in the intersection finishing their turn.
Around here a lot of people run red lights so I always glance both ways before I go through a green light especially if it just turned green.
Quote from: kalvado on September 23, 2019, 04:40:26 PM
I guess I can add another one to annoying habbits list: driving like the only car on the road, regardless of consequences for those around.
Especially with actuated signals that gap-out. Drivers who leave unnecessary large gaps can be very frustrating. Annoyingly, it may not count as "incompetent" as they're often using the suggested following distance provided by their local government/council.
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 23, 2019, 04:49:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2019, 02:42:53 PM
Am I the only one who isn't keen at rolling right through a light, right as it turns green (as opposed to two or three seconds after it turns green)? Someone could easily be entering the intersection from the other direction "late", and there could be a collision. Hell, even between you and someone who was already in the intersection finishing their turn.
Around here a lot of people run red lights so I always glance both ways before I go through a green light especially if it just turned green.
As do I. I just try not to hit the stop line right as it turns green.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2019, 04:55:17 PM
Annoyingly, it may not count as "incompetent" as they're often using the suggested following distance provided by their local government/council.
Are you suggesting people should tailgate & ride close just to make a green light?
Quote from: kalvado on September 23, 2019, 04:40:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 23, 2019, 02:31:42 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 23, 2019, 02:27:05 PM
I like to cross fresh greens on a roll too, but in terms of energy dissipation and the behavioral parameters under which the following driver operates, I tend to find it works better to brake late rather than early. The energy dissipated through the brakes is less when going from 15 MPH to 10 MPH than it is when going from 35 MPH to 30 MPH--the speed change is the same but kinetic energy is proportional to the square of speed, so the brakes have to dissipate 2.6 times the energy at the higher final speed. Also, following drivers tend not to expect braking between signals unless a turn is signalled. Illumination of the brake lamps does give them some warning, but coastdown as opposed to braking gives them more time and space to react.
But it's not my brakes I'm concerned about when doing this sort of thing. I'm more interested in the gas mileage difference between having to speed up from 15 mph or less when the light turns green vs having to speed up from the 35 or 40 mph that I slowed down to ahead of time.
Often at a cost of cars behind you missing the light...
I guess I can add another one to annoying habbits list: driving like the only car on the road, regardless of consequences for those around.
Uh, no. If I'm timing my approach to the intersection to coincide with the light
turning green, then chances are awfully slim that doing so would cause someone behind me to
get a red.
Quote from: kphoger on September 23, 2019, 05:25:09 PM
Uh, no. If I'm timing my approach to the intersection to coincide with the light turning green, then chances are awfully slim that doing so would cause someone behind me to get a red.
Not so much aiming at that particular "roll into fresh green" - those lights with sensors over here absolutely require that a car comes to a full stop over the sensing loop. timing your roll so you can go after the last stopped car without coming to a complete stop - and allowing light to start next phase, so those behind you are cut off is another side of a coin
Even that may cause a problem with those behind you trying to get, for example, a leading protected left turn phase or having to slow down and wait for you to clear slip lane entry.
But my complain is a whole lot broader, though. THose green light games are some of many examples.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 23, 2019, 05:17:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2019, 04:55:17 PM
Annoyingly, it may not count as "incompetent" as they're often using the suggested following distance provided by their local government/council.
Are you suggesting people should tailgate & ride close just to make a green light?
There's a difference between "tailgating" and an increasingly-larger gap. The former is dangerous, and the latter causes traffic platoons to separate and actuated signals to gap-out. The better course of action is to stay reasonably near the car in front. Not so close that you can see if they shaved that morning, but close enough that a signal won't confuse the gap for the end of a line of cars.
Quote from: kalvado on September 23, 2019, 06:04:51 PM
Not so much aiming at that particular "roll into fresh green" - those lights with sensors over here absolutely require that a car comes to a full stop over the sensing loop. timing your roll so you can go after the last stopped car without coming to a complete stop - and allowing light to start next phase, so those behind you are cut off is another side of a coin
That's a great point too. Many actuated signals around here don't necessarily jump right back to one direction. A "side" approach may stay green, even without any cars, until another car approaches from the primary road, or until a certain length of time has elapsed. In any case, if you're approaching a red light in this scenario, letting of the gas well before the light may not do you anything, as you may still need to come very close to the stop line to trip the signal.
With this in mind, some of the newer video-detection software seems to look quite far downstream. I've had left turn signals activate having only just nosed into the left turn lane, even without any cars at the front of the line.
Well, for what it's worth, I tend to only do this at signals I'm familiar with, so I know how they operate. Also, it's generally on roads with a speed limit of at least 50 mph, so coming to a full stop is something I'd rather avoid. These are roads with long main-road phases (gapping out early not much of an issue) and video detection rather than loop detection (no need to come to a stop to trip a green light but cruising through at the full speed limit won't work either).
Quote from: kphoger on September 23, 2019, 08:47:45 PM
Well, for what it's worth, I tend to only do this at signals I'm familiar with, so I know how they operate. Also, it's generally on roads with a speed limit of at least 50 mph, so coming to a full stop is something I'd rather avoid. These are roads with long main-road phases (gapping out early not much of an issue) and video detection rather than loop detection (no need to come to a stop to trip a green light but cruising through at the full speed limit won't work either).
Again, I am not trying to attack you personally. You know roads in your area better than me, and vice versa. I did see more than a few people who disrupt other cars movements making other drivers to come to unneeded stops or wait full light cycle just because somenoe is slowly coasting to cars stopped at red light or slows down into late green; but that is for few specific locations over here, prone to such situations. I can easily believe your situation is different (for one, I don't think there are too many - if any - video detectors over here).
Not thinking about others, though, is still a common thing. Not limited to specific situations on the road - or driving at all. Ever saw people in a store taking their sweet time next to their shopping cart parked across the isle?
If you're at an intersection with no turning lanes, first of all, tell us about it here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20249.50), and second of all, if you're turning left and someone across from you is also turning left, please GO!
I simply cannot comprehend why some people don't do this, and instead sit and wait until the person across from them turns, thus opening the floodgates for another 10 or sometimes 20+ cars to go past, and being forced to go on yellow/red, or worse yet, waiting through another whole light cycle! Absolutely ridiculous!
I am also going to make the argument that driving at or below the speed limit, in some cases, actually could be caused by incompetence.
If you are unable to distinguish that, in certain cases, the state or county DOT got the speed limit entirely, 100% wrong, and further, that abiding by the limit is a huge inconvenience and frustration to everyone else on the road, then you are absolutely incompetent in my book.
Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2019, 02:37:28 PM
I am also going to make the argument that driving at or below the speed limit, in some cases, actually could be caused by incompetence.
If you are unable to distinguish that, in certain cases, the state or county DOT got the speed limit entirely, 100% wrong, and further, that abiding by the limit is a huge inconvenience and frustration to everyone else on the road, then you are absolutely incompetent in my book.
Disagree. Yes, I have witnessed many times being stuck behind someone doing the speed limit that's underposted, but they are 100% abiding by the law & posted speed limit. It's illegal to exceed it, and they chose to not do that. That's no way incompetent.
Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2019, 02:32:21 PM
I simply cannot comprehend why some people don't do this, and instead sit and wait until the person across from them turns, thus opening the floodgates for another 10 or sometimes 20+ cars to go past, and being forced to go on yellow/red, or worse yet, waiting through another whole light cycle! Absolutely ridiculous!
I don't get this either. At first, I was going to argue that this is actually caused by incompetence, because if someone across from you has their blinker on to turn, that's your sign that you too can turn left. Problem is that people are taught to
not trust blinkers. Which to me is insane, since if you never trust blinkers, you will sit in that situation all day because you'll be forever convinced that someone
might go straight.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 07, 2019, 03:47:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2019, 02:32:21 PM
I simply cannot comprehend why some people don't do this, and instead sit and wait until the person across from them turns, thus opening the floodgates for another 10 or sometimes 20+ cars to go past, and being forced to go on yellow/red, or worse yet, waiting through another whole light cycle! Absolutely ridiculous!
I don't get this either. At first, I was going to argue that this is actually caused by incompetence, because if someone across from you has their blinker on to turn, that's your sign that you too can turn left. Problem is that people are taught to not trust blinkers. Which to me is insane, since if you never trust blinkers, you will sit in that situation all day because you'll be forever convinced that someone might go straight.
If we're talking single lane per direction and a stopped car behind opponent - yes, it's a go.
If there is a room to drive past turning car, even if there is no official lane there (and many roads flare at intersections)- then it is risky. If opponent pulled forward enough to let through traffic to drive around, it is another risk. l If there is no stopped car right behind and a car is approaching from behind , that driver may not be aware of situation and may have too little time to react.
Last, but not the least: if
anything happens, driver of the turning car is the one liable for the crash.
Quote from: kalvado on November 07, 2019, 04:07:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 07, 2019, 03:47:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2019, 02:32:21 PM
I simply cannot comprehend why some people don't do this, and instead sit and wait until the person across from them turns, thus opening the floodgates for another 10 or sometimes 20+ cars to go past, and being forced to go on yellow/red, or worse yet, waiting through another whole light cycle! Absolutely ridiculous!
I don't get this either. At first, I was going to argue that this is actually caused by incompetence, because if someone across from you has their blinker on to turn, that's your sign that you too can turn left. Problem is that people are taught to not trust blinkers. Which to me is insane, since if you never trust blinkers, you will sit in that situation all day because you'll be forever convinced that someone might go straight.
If we're talking single lane per direction and a stopped car behind opponent - yes, it's a go.
If there is a room to drive past turning car, even if there is no official lane there (and many roads flare at intersections)- then it is risky. If opponent pulled forward enough to let through traffic to drive around, it is another risk. l If there is no stopped car right behind and a car is approaching from behind , that driver may not be aware of situation and may have too little time to react.
Last, but not the least: if anything happens, driver of the turning car is the one liable for the crash.
I was speaking more generally than the specifics you've provided. But yes, if the road is wide enough to permit "undertaking", you have to be more cautious when turning. But that applies for both directions. At any rate, if there's a constant flow of turning traffic coming towards you, it should be obvious enough if a second lane (to the right of the turning traffic) is forming that you would need to yield to.