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Why US 491 and not 291?

Started by hotdogPi, January 06, 2019, 09:44:15 AM

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hotdogPi

For every US 4xx, there exists or used to exist a xx, 1xx, 2xx, and 3xx. Same with other numbers. For example, for US 730 to exist, there had to be a 30, 130, 230, 330, 430, 530, and 630. The only exceptions are US 400, US 425, and US 491. 400 and 425 are oddballs anyway, but this leaves 491 as a bit strange, as there was never a 291 or 391. I have two questions:

1. Why was 491 chosen and not 291?
2. Were there any violations of this rule in the past that have been resolved now?
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.


NE2

Colorado has SH 291 and SH 391 and requested US 491 so as not to conflict.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

oscar

Quote from: NE2 on January 06, 2019, 10:00:34 AM
Colorado has SH 291 and SH 391 and requested US 491 so as not to conflict.

New Mexico also has state route 291.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

US 89

There's also a short, unsigned SR 291 in Utah.

When US 666 was initially decided to be renumbered, New Mexico suggested the route become US 393...which of course was in total violation of the numbering system. AASHTO basically said "uh, no"  to that and suggested 491 instead.

kwellada

As a lifelong heavy metal fan, I'm still very sad that they decided to rename US666. 

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: US 89 on January 06, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
There's also a short, unsigned SR 291 in Utah.

When US 666 was initially decided to be renumbered, New Mexico suggested the route become US 393...which of course was in total violation of the numbering system. AASHTO basically said "uh, no"  to that and suggested 491 instead.

Was it completely on the route of US 491 or was there some weird far flung idea to get that over towards US 93 somehow?   I seem to recall UDOT once pushed for a US Route on UT 95 and 24 which was meant to be part of US 666?

usends

Quote from: US 89 on January 06, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
When US 666 was initially decided to be renumbered, New Mexico suggested the route become US 393...which of course was in total violation of the numbering system. AASHTO basically said "uh, no"  to that and suggested 491 instead.

NMDoT didn't just throw out 393 as a random suggestion, and I don't think AASHTO was involved in choosing the number 491.  When I first became aware of the US 393 proposal in 2003, naturally I was not a big fan of that nonsensical number.  As a Colorado resident, I thought my best bet would be to contact CDoT.  I got connected to one of the agency's Southwest District managers in Durango, and following is my recollection of what I learned during that conversation:

NMDoT was the main driver in changing US 666's number, but they knew they needed buy-in from the other two states (Colorado and Utah) before submitting a request to AASHTO.  Conceptually NMDoT thought of the road as a branch of US 191, so they wanted an x91 designation.  They already had SH 291, so initially they suggested US 391.  But then CDoT pointed out that they already had SH 391.  NMDoT was under the impression that a north-south route needed to be an odd number, so they suggested the next odd number up from 391, which was 393. 

I explained to the CDoT manager why that number was not appropriate, and I pointed out that 491 would make a lot more sense.  He basically said, "I really don't care what the number is, as long as we can get rid of 666".  I asked why, and he said they were literally unable to keep the shields posted on the highway due to chronic sign theft.  After that conversation I think he went back to NMDoT with the 491 idea, and that is the proposal that ended up getting submitted to AASHTO.
usends.com - US highway endpoints, photos, maps, and history

The High Plains Traveler

Quote from: usends on January 06, 2019, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 06, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
When US 666 was initially decided to be renumbered, New Mexico suggested the route become US 393...which of course was in total violation of the numbering system. AASHTO basically said "uh, no"  to that and suggested 491 instead.

NMDoT didn't just throw out 393 as a random suggestion, and I don't think AASHTO was involved in choosing the number 491.  When I first became aware of the US 393 proposal in 2003, naturally I was not a big fan of that nonsensical number.  As a Colorado resident, I thought my best bet would be to contact CDoT.  I got connected to one of the agency's Southwest District managers in Durango, and following is my recollection of what I learned during that conversation:

NMDoT was the main driver in changing US 666's number, but they knew they needed buy-in from the other two states (Colorado and Utah) before submitting a request to AASHTO.  Conceptually NMDoT thought of the road as a branch of US 191, so they wanted an x91 designation.  They already had SH 291, so initially they suggested US 391.  But then CDoT pointed out that they already had SH 391.  NMDoT was under the impression that a north-south route needed to be an odd number, so they suggested the next odd number up from 391, which was 393. 

I explained to the CDoT manager why that number was not appropriate, and I pointed out that 491 would make a lot more sense.  He basically said, "I really don't care what the number is, as long as we can get rid of 666".  I asked why, and he said they were literally unable to keep the shields posted on the highway due to chronic sign theft.  After that conversation I think he went back to NMDoT with the 491 idea, and that is the proposal that ended up getting submitted to AASHTO.
That explains why the same AASHTO that gave us 412 and 400 (and more) didn't somehow save the day to keep us from another U.S. route number travesty.
"Tongue-tied and twisted; just an earth-bound misfit, I."

usends

Quote from: 1 on January 06, 2019, 09:44:15 AM
For every US 4xx, there exists or used to exist a xx, 1xx, 2xx, and 3xx... Were there any violations of this rule in the past that have been resolved now?
Here are a few similar examples:
-There is a US 209, but never a US 109.  109 was included in the preliminary 1925 plan, but it ended up as US 9E in the final numbering.  US 209 was not in the prelim plan, so one could argue that the number 109 should have been used for it.
-US 641 was commissioned in 1955.  By that time, both US 241 and 541 were gone, so one could argue that one of those numbers should have been reused instead.
-There was a US 250 in the prelim plan, but no US 250 in the final 1926 numbering.  So one could argue that US 350, 450, 550, and 650 should have been renumbered.  (The current US 250 was commissioned in 1928.)
-US 264 was commissioned in 1932.  By that time, the first US 164 was gone, so that number was available.  (Since that time a second US 164 has come and gone.)
usends.com - US highway endpoints, photos, maps, and history

DJStephens

Triple six may have extended southward from I-40 on today 191 also, at one time.   There is an AZ 266 and 366 south of Safford, which may have been branches of it.   191 goes all the way to the southern border at Douglas, AZ eventually.   

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: DJStephens on January 07, 2019, 09:27:17 AM
Triple six may have extended southward from I-40 on today 191 also, at one time.   There is an AZ 266 and 366 south of Safford, which may have been branches of it.   191 goes all the way to the southern border at Douglas, AZ eventually.

266 and 366 are definirely branches of 666.  Arizona was big on creating family 3D Routes of 2ds before the Interstate era.  US 666 connected AZ 266 and 366 by proxy to US 66.  Take a look at some of the 1950s era highway maps on David Ramsey and the convention is immediately apparent state wide. 

KeithE4Phx

Quote from: DJStephens on January 07, 2019, 09:27:17 AM
Triple six may have extended southward from I-40 on today 191 also, at one time.   There is an AZ 266 and 366 south of Safford, which may have been branches of it.   191 goes all the way to the southern border at Douglas, AZ eventually.

May have?  It did, for over 50 years -- from the late 1930s (it shows up on a 1938 map, but not one from 1935) until it was changed to US 191 in 1992.  Prior to that, the southern leg of the road was AZ 81 and the northern leg was AZ 61.
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

US 89

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2019, 10:09:21 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on January 07, 2019, 09:27:17 AM
Triple six may have extended southward from I-40 on today 191 also, at one time.   There is an AZ 266 and 366 south of Safford, which may have been branches of it.   191 goes all the way to the southern border at Douglas, AZ eventually.

266 and 366 are definirely branches of 666.  Arizona was big on creating family 3D Routes of 2ds before the Interstate era.  US 666 connected AZ 266 and 366 by proxy to US 66.  Take a look at some of the 1950s era highway maps on David Ramsey and the convention is immediately apparent state wide.

They were big into that even for state route designations -- like AZ 64, which was given five x64 state route branches. Many of those (plus much of the 64 mainline itself) would end up later as extended US routes. Compared to nearby states like Utah, the Arizona state highway network's numbering is remarkably organized, and clearly was even more so in the past.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: US 89 on January 07, 2019, 03:40:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2019, 10:09:21 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on January 07, 2019, 09:27:17 AM
Triple six may have extended southward from I-40 on today 191 also, at one time.   There is an AZ 266 and 366 south of Safford, which may have been branches of it.   191 goes all the way to the southern border at Douglas, AZ eventually.

266 and 366 are definirely branches of 666.  Arizona was big on creating family 3D Routes of 2ds before the Interstate era.  US 666 connected AZ 266 and 366 by proxy to US 66.  Take a look at some of the 1950s era highway maps on David Ramsey and the convention is immediately apparent state wide.

They were big into that even for state route designations -- like AZ 64, which was given five x64 state route branches. Many of those (plus much of the 64 mainline itself) would end up later as extended US routes. Compared to nearby states like Utah, the Arizona state highway network's numbering is remarkably organized, and clearly was even more so in the past.

It's interesting to see what the original route numbers proposals were before when US 66 was supposed to be US 60. You had weird differences like the Apache Trail being numbered AZ 66.  Personally I loved how consistent the state network really was, it was shame that it wasn't kept up with during the Interstate era.  Washington State now uses a similar convention to what Arizona once did with their numbering's. 

The Ghostbuster

The number doesn't bother me any, although I don't see why 666 had to be renumbered in the first place. Just because US 66 was decommissioned in 1985 doesn't mean it was an obsolete numbering.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 08, 2019, 03:21:08 PM
The number doesn't bother me any, although I don't see why 666 had to be renumbered in the first place. Just because US 66 was decommissioned in 1985 doesn't mean it was an obsolete numbering.

It wasn't renumbered because 66 was gone. It was because keeping the route number as 666 had become too much of a headache for all parties involved. 166 and 266 are still around.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

US 89

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 08, 2019, 03:36:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 08, 2019, 03:21:08 PM
The number doesn't bother me any, although I don't see why 666 had to be renumbered in the first place. Just because US 66 was decommissioned in 1985 doesn't mean it was an obsolete numbering.

It wasn’t renumbered because 66 was gone. It was because keeping the route number as 666 had become too much of a headache for all parties involved. 166 and 266 are still around.

Exactly-there's plenty of precedent for 3dus routes whose parents no longer exist (see also US 138, 199, and more). The primary reason for renumbering was that sign theft got to a point where none of the three involved DOTs could actually keep the US 666 signs up.

For the same reason, I'm sure AZ was happy when they got to renumber their US 666 segment as US 191.

oscar

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 08, 2019, 03:36:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 08, 2019, 03:21:08 PM
The number doesn't bother me any, although I don't see why 666 had to be renumbered in the first place. Just because US 66 was decommissioned in 1985 doesn't mean it was an obsolete numbering.

It wasn't renumbered because 66 was gone. It was because keeping the route number as 666 had become too much of a headache for all parties involved. 166 and 266 are still around.

There's the massive sign theft problem mentioned above. I saw both many sign assemblies from which 666 markers were stolen, and in other locations some of the stolen signs.

Also, some in New Mexico blamed the "devil's number" for the high fatality rate along its part of the highway. My hunch is that liquor stores with drive-thru windows might've been a bigger factor.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: oscar on January 08, 2019, 03:48:13 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 08, 2019, 03:36:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 08, 2019, 03:21:08 PM
The number doesn't bother me any, although I don't see why 666 had to be renumbered in the first place. Just because US 66 was decommissioned in 1985 doesn't mean it was an obsolete numbering.

It wasn't renumbered because 66 was gone. It was because keeping the route number as 666 had become too much of a headache for all parties involved. 166 and 266 are still around.

There's the massive sign theft problem mentioned above. I saw both many sign assemblies from which 666 markers were stolen, and in other locations some of the stolen signs.

Also, some in New Mexico blamed the "devil's number" for the high fatality rate along its part of the highway. My hunch is that liquor stores with drive-thru windows might've been a bigger factor.

On the Arizona side the Coronado Trail of 666 sure helped give it the "Devil's Highway" reputation.  The Coronado Trail is right up there with US 550 on the San Juan Skyway and US 212 on the Beartooth Highway in terms of challenging US Routes.

kwellada

and by "challenging" you mean super awesome  :cool:

The Ghostbuster

How did the number 666 become the number for "The Devil's Highway?" Does anyone know? I sure don't.

hbelkins

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 09, 2019, 03:43:14 PM
How did the number 666 become the number for "The Devil's Highway?" Does anyone know? I sure don't.

There's a passage in Revelations that might be of help in answering that question. Or the third Iron Maiden album (first with Bruce Dickinson as lead singer.)


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

The Ghostbuster

I'm not religious, that's why I didn't know the meaning behind 666. I do understand 420 a little better.

Max Rockatansky

#23
Quote from: kwellada on January 09, 2019, 01:54:46 PM
and by "challenging" you mean super awesome  :cool:

I do, the Coronado Trail is a complete blast to drive. 

Enough of a blast that we featured it on Surewhynotnow a while back:

https://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2017/11/throwback-thursday-us-191-coronado.html

kwellada

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2019, 03:48:21 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 09, 2019, 03:43:14 PM
How did the number 666 become the number for "The Devil's Highway?" Does anyone know? I sure don't.

There's a passage in Revelations that might be of help in answering that question. Or the third Iron Maiden album (first with Bruce Dickinson as lead singer.)

And the Iron Maiden song probably has far more to do with why those US 666 signs kept getting stolen.  That would be a killer souvenir for any metal fan to have



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