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Regional Boards => Mid-Atlantic => Topic started by: dvferyance on June 17, 2016, 05:37:59 PM

Title: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: dvferyance on June 17, 2016, 05:37:59 PM
It blows my mind away how a state has the money to maintain so many roads. Even roads that are as minor as local cities streets in my town. How can this state afford it? I would think it would make far more sense if the secondary roads are turned over to the county. Just like they are with the lettered highways in Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: Mapmikey on June 17, 2016, 06:21:44 PM
Virginia's way of doing this dates to 1932 with the Byrd Act.

But turning it over to the counties might not change the outcome much.  Any county can opt out (currently 2 counties do not participate - Henrico and Arlington; Nottoway County opted in in 1933) and all the Independent Cities are out.

But VDOT sends them money based on road classification and lane mileage.  So VDOT would still have to pay for County road maintenance and the counties would then be responsible for actually carrying out the maintenance.  Interstates are exempt - VDOT maintains them regardless.

Some counties have considered dropping out of the Byrd Act because in theory they would receive a little more money, in addition to being able to have more control of the priority of maintenance.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: froggie on June 18, 2016, 12:37:42 PM
Keep in mind that this is a state that has about 50% more population than Wisconsin and has a sales tax that goes to VDOT in addition to the gas tax and other revenues.

Adding onto what Mike said, the genesis of it was the Depression...the counties couldn't afford to maintain their roads when the Depression hit, so the Byrd Act was passed and all but the two aforementioned counties had their roads taken over by VDOT's predecessor.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 18, 2016, 12:50:00 PM
At one point there were four counties not participating, but one of those counties no longer exists (it's now part of the City of Newport News) and the other, as Mike noted, opted into the system in 1933.

This is a serious oversimplification, but a major reason why independent cities are excluded has to do with historical rural bias on the part of Harry Byrd Sr. and his cronies, who relied on rural jurisdictions for a lot of their support.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: cl94 on June 18, 2016, 01:00:08 PM
It's really not much different than Pennsylvania. Almost every road outside of a developed area that isn't a dead end or dirt road is maintained by PennDOT. West Virginia maintains virtually everything as well.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: Mapmikey on June 18, 2016, 01:31:02 PM
Virginia counties can and do maintain some roads.  Some to a huge degree like Buchanan County which has a numbered system for its self-maintained roads.

Counties can and do build roads on their own dime (or a developer's dime) and if they are built to VDOT standards can be transferred into VDOT's maintenance.

A large example of this is the Fairfax County Pkwy which was built largely on Fairfax County $ then transferred to VDOT later.  If a county wants to have a maintained or VDOT-funded route have a feature that is not compliant with VDOT standards, they would have to remove the road from the VDOT maintenance or funding list.  A good example of this is VA 244 in Arlington having to be removed from the primary system for the streetcar that was going to be built (since cancelled) down the middle of it.

Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 18, 2016, 02:42:02 PM
For the sake of completeness, it may also be worth noting there are lots of "private" roads in Virginia in the sense that while they're open to the public, they're owned and maintained by private entities. The typical example, especially in Northern Virginia but by no means limited to here, is roads owned by homeowners' associations. HOA dues pay for the maintenance, to include repaving, sealcoating, plowing, etc. I live on such a street in Kingstowne and it sometimes leads to the weird situation during the winter where our street is nicely plowed by the HOA plow but you can't go far because the VDOT System street to which ours connects has not yet seen a plow (the HOA plow is not permitted to clear VDOT roads for liability reasons). It also leads to the somewhat more annoying situation of our street being in excellent condition and the VDOT System street having a few washboard-like sections where they didn't do a very good job of repairing potholes.

As Mike notes, it's pretty common for VDOT System roads to have been built by developers as part of the "proffers" required by the county as conditions to building something, especially a neighborhood.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: NJRoadfan on June 18, 2016, 02:54:05 PM
NC and I think Delaware uses a similar system as well. I always wondered how these states had enough plows to take care of snowfall in the winter (in areas where it snows anyway). Its also weird to see state maintained dirt and gravel roads. Meanwhile in states where this isn't the case, private roads tend to be rare.

In NJ, some municipal roads might as well be "state maintained", at least indirectly. Some municipalities only repave roads when they get a grant from NJDOT to pay for it (usually the smaller boros). Some even use the state's salt sheds in the winter instead of running their own (the plows are usually from the town DPW or privately contracted).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 18, 2016, 04:26:11 PM
The "private roads" thing surprises a lot of people. I recall there was a big stink out near Fairfax City when the person who, at the time, owned the section of Nutley Street between US-50 and US-29 constructed some big speed bumps. People went ballistic complaining to the Commonwealth and to Fairfax County and were shocked when they learned the road was privately-owned. I don't recall the details of how it was eventually resolved other than that the owner removed the speed bumps in return for some kind of government concession (I think VDOT took over maintenance).

I found an excerpt from a news article online, but I don't have access to the whole thing because I don't want to pay: https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1314617.html
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: NJRoadfan on June 18, 2016, 07:53:37 PM
NCDOT very clearly signs private roads on street signs. One place where jurisdictional notation is signed in a way overboard fashion is Morrisville, NC. Every sign blade has markings noting if a road is private, town, or state maintained!

https://goo.gl/maps/7aBH5RXixwn
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: GaryV on June 18, 2016, 07:55:15 PM
For other states where counties - and under them cities, towns, villages and townships - maintain the roads, where do the localities get their money?

As far as I can tell, for the most part in Michigan, counties get road money passed down from the state, primarily coming from gas taxes and registration fees.  Cities may get some too, I'm not sure of that.  Many cities have had to pass property tax proposals for road funds, and many local streets are paid for by special assessments on the adjacent properties.

It sounds like VA simply kept the whole pot and divvies it out by paying for roads, not by grants to local governments.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: NJRoadfan on June 18, 2016, 08:10:05 PM
In NJ, funding comes from the following:

Municipal: Primary funding for roads comes from the "Municipal Government" section of one's property tax bill. Additional funding comes from NJDOT local grants if the municipality applies and qualifies. Many smaller towns will align their repaving and improvements with NJDOT grants to reduce the tax impact to residents. These are the most common class of road in NJ. Since there are no unincorporated areas in NJ, any road that isn't county or state maintained falls on the municipality to maintain.

County: Primary funding for county roads comes from the "County Government" section of one's property tax bill. Additional funding comes from NJDOT local grants if the municipality applies and qualifies. Federal funding may be available if the roadways are in NHS. Note that the state secondary route system is almost entirely maintained.

State: Primary funding for state roads (primary numbered routes, US routes, Interstates) comes from the state gas tax (and nearly broke Transportation Trust Fund) and federal funding.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: hbelkins on June 18, 2016, 08:50:08 PM
In Kentucky, cities and counties get money from the state as a percentage of gas tax revenues. There is a formula written into state statute. In addition, the state can provide emergency funding for repairs. AFAIK no local tax revenue (property, payroll, etc.) goes to maintenance of city streets or county roads.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: WashuOtaku on June 19, 2016, 01:38:00 AM
Quote from: GaryV on June 18, 2016, 07:55:15 PM
For other states where counties - and under them cities, towns, villages and townships - maintain the roads, where do the localities get their money?

For both North and South Carolina, the state DOT provide some funds to city maintenance (which maintain non-primary routes), but for the most part the city pays for them with local taxes (i.e. property tax, sales tax, etc.)  Also both states maintain the lion share of roads since their is no county component.  North Carolina is #2 largest and South Carolina is #4 largest; Texas is 1st.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2016, 10:04:15 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 18, 2016, 12:37:42 PM
Adding onto what Mike said, the genesis of it was the Depression...the counties couldn't afford to maintain their roads when the Depression hit, so the Byrd Act was passed and all but the two aforementioned counties had their roads taken over by VDOT's predecessor.

There has also been a strong desire that all counties across the Commonwealth (never mind the cities and most of the towns, except for certain freeways) have primary and secondary highway systems that are reasonably uniform in terms of design and perhaps especially maintenance.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/Themes/Button_Copy/images/buttons/mutcd_merge.png)Post Merge: June 19, 2016, 10:25:17 PM

Quote from: GaryV on June 18, 2016, 07:55:15 PM
It sounds like VA simply kept the whole pot and divvies it out by paying for roads, not by grants to local governments.

In the vast majority of Virginia's counties where VDOT maintains the secondary roads, by law, the county elected officials have no official say-so when it comes to the operation and upkeep of said roads.  VDOT does effectively look to the county comprehensive plan documents when building something new, but it is VDOT, and not the counties, that has the last say.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: SP Cook on June 20, 2016, 07:20:33 AM
Quote from: cl94 on June 18, 2016, 01:00:08 PM
West Virginia maintains virtually everything as well.

Correct.  In WV it is, or at least was, called the "Tax Limitation Amendment"  In the Depression, counties, which were and still are mostly funded by property taxes, were broke.  The state took over the entire highway function from counties, which have no highway functions at all.  This supposedly freed up the county taxes, which were not reduced, for everything else counties do.

"County" is just a class or road, denoting (generally) lower quality than a "State" or "US" highway, but all are maintained by the state.  The only exception are city streets, and that is not even really true.  Every city street that bears a number is still a state maintained road.  The main streets of a town are almost always going to be a US or WV route, and thus state maintained.  And in most towns, many streets carry "secret" county route numbers and are also state maintined.  And, most cities fudge, getting their politicians to move route number around (4th Ave is US 60 when it needs paved, then US 60 moves to 5th Ave the next year and gets paved...)

This, of course, lead to a different political dynamic (roughly democrats favor maintance of small local roads in their power base area, Republicans favor building major 4 lanes, roughly) and a HUGE highway department with 38,759 miles under state maintance.   The DOH even (for a fee) maintains the city streets of several towns.

Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: hbelkins on June 20, 2016, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2016, 10:04:15 PM
In the vast majority of Virginia's counties where VDOT maintains the secondary roads, by law, the county elected officials have no official say-so when it comes to the operation and upkeep of said roads.  VDOT does effectively look to the county comprehensive plan documents when building something new, but it is VDOT, and not the counties, that has the last say.

But I would suspect that VDOT pays special attention when a local official complains about a state-maintained secondary route. Even though Kentucky has roads that are county maintained, if a local official raises a concern about a state highway, that complaint will get special attention from KYTC personnel.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 20, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 20, 2016, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2016, 10:04:15 PM
In the vast majority of Virginia's counties where VDOT maintains the secondary roads, by law, the county elected officials have no official say-so when it comes to the operation and upkeep of said roads.  VDOT does effectively look to the county comprehensive plan documents when building something new, but it is VDOT, and not the counties, that has the last say.

But I would suspect that VDOT pays special attention when a local official complains about a state-maintained secondary route. Even though Kentucky has roads that are county maintained, if a local official raises a concern about a state highway, that complaint will get special attention from KYTC personnel.

Yeah, complaints from county (and sometimes municipal, though not as much, since VDOT maintains relatively little within the cities and towns) elected officials probably do get more attention than a complaint from a regular citizen. 

When retired Rep. Frank Wolf (R-10) was a member of Congress, he "trained" many of his constituents to call his office when they had a problem with something maintained by VDOT (IMO inappropriate, as he was a member of Congress, not the Virginia General Assembly), and then reaped the reward for getting VDOT to do something (even though VDOT would have probably corrected the problem without help from Wolf).

There are certainly members from both parties in the Virginia General Assembly that keep close tabs on VDOT, and submit problem reports and complaints to them  (and since VDOT is a state agency, that is a good thing).

Though I have never lived in Virginia, I drive there quite a lot, and have submitted maintenance requests to VDOT both by phone and (more recently) online, and the problems tend to get addressed. 

Usually simple stuff, like potholes, signs knocked-down or guardrails damaged, though I did inform them not so long ago of a bridge stringer that had been struck by an overheight vehicle on I-495 and rather badly damaged, and they seemed not to be aware of it until I called them (it had not been repaired the last time I was by there, but they are aware of it).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: Brandon on June 20, 2016, 04:55:36 PM
In Illinois, there are several entities that may maintain a specific road or street.

1. IDOT.  IDOT maintains marked and unmarked state highways only.  Maintained through the state's fuel taxes.

2. ISTHA.  ISTHA only maintains its tollways and associated ramps.  Maintained only by tolls.

3. Counties.  The counties maintain their county highways, but not IDOT/ISTHA highways or local streets/roads.  These county highways may be in both unincorporated and incorporated areas.  Maintained by a combination of county fuel taxes, sales taxes, and property taxes.

4. Municipalities (Cities, Villages, Incorporated Towns).  The municipalities maintain municipal streets and, in some cases, marked state highways (Lake Shore Drive in Chicago is a prime example - signed as US-41, maintained by CDOT).  Maintained by a combination of municipal fuel taxes, sales taxes, and property taxes.

5. Townships.  Unincorporated townships maintain local streets in unincorporated areas and rural roads, also in unincorporated areas.  Maintained through property taxes.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 20, 2016, 06:58:22 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 20, 2016, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2016, 10:04:15 PM
In the vast majority of Virginia's counties where VDOT maintains the secondary roads, by law, the county elected officials have no official say-so when it comes to the operation and upkeep of said roads.  VDOT does effectively look to the county comprehensive plan documents when building something new, but it is VDOT, and not the counties, that has the last say.

But I would suspect that VDOT pays special attention when a local official complains about a state-maintained secondary route. Even though Kentucky has roads that are county maintained, if a local official raises a concern about a state highway, that complaint will get special attention from KYTC personnel.

They do. A number of times (maybe three) when VDOT has not made a repair I've submitted on their website, such as fixing a mismarked turn lane, I've contacted our district's member of the county board of supervisors and each time the problem then got solved very quickly. I only do this for significant stuff, not routine stuff like potholes, because I figure he'll find me more credible if I only contact him about major items.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: dvferyance on June 20, 2016, 07:40:50 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 20, 2016, 04:55:36 PM
In Illinois, there are several entities that may maintain a specific road or street.

1. IDOT.  IDOT maintains marked and unmarked state highways only.  Maintained through the state's fuel taxes.

2. ISTHA.  ISTHA only maintains its tollways and associated ramps.  Maintained only by tolls.

3. Counties.  The counties maintain their county highways, but not IDOT/ISTHA highways or local streets/roads.  These county highways may be in both unincorporated and incorporated areas.  Maintained by a combination of county fuel taxes, sales taxes, and property taxes.

4. Municipalities (Cities, Villages, Incorporated Towns).  The municipalities maintain municipal streets and, in some cases, marked state highways (Lake Shore Drive in Chicago is a prime example - signed as US-41, maintained by CDOT).  Maintained by a combination of municipal fuel taxes, sales taxes, and property taxes.

5. Townships.  Unincorporated townships maintain local streets in unincorporated areas and rural roads, also in unincorporated areas.  Maintained through property taxes.
I know this is off topic but I wanted to address my argument for the split routes in Indiana still being signed as a state highway. So Chicago can maintain roads that are signed a state highway. If so Indiana could do the same because it's being done elsewhere.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 20, 2016, 08:07:14 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on June 20, 2016, 07:40:50 PM
I know this is off topic but I wanted to address my argument for the split routes in Indiana still being signed as a state highway. So Chicago can maintain roads that are signed a state highway. If so Indiana could do the same because it's being done elsewhere.

In Virginia, that is standard operating procedure for primary system routes (including bannered business and alternate roues) that pass through cities and towns.   They are maintained by the municipality, but are still (supposed to be) signed as a state or U.S. route.

Some Virginia municipalities a terrible job of signing those routes within their corporate limits.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: hbelkins on June 21, 2016, 02:28:36 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 20, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
When retired Rep. Frank Wolf (R-10) was a member of Congress, he "trained" many of his constituents to call his office when they had a problem with something maintained by VDOT (IMO inappropriate, as he was a member of Congress, not the Virginia General Assembly), and then reaped the reward for getting VDOT to do something (even though VDOT would have probably corrected the problem without help from Wolf).

We occasionally get a letter that is filtered down from the congressman who represents the majority of our highway district. There seems to be a mentality that calling/writing your Member of Congress (or U.S. senator) will get results faster because they're more powerful since they're the federal government. What typically happens is that someone from the federal elected representative's field office will send the complaint to KYTC in Frankfort, along with a letter from the congressman or senator saying "I was recently contacted by my constituent Joe Blow concerning blah blah blah." That then gets forwarded to the district for a response that the KYTC Secretary signs and sends to the constituent. It doesn't mean the problem gets solved any faster, especially if the problem involves a county road or city street that is out of KYTC's jurisdiction. That happens often, too, because a lot of people think writing the governor will get a problem with a local road fixed. (It won't.)
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 21, 2016, 03:24:54 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 21, 2016, 02:28:36 PM
We occasionally get a letter that is filtered down from the congressman who represents the majority of our highway district. There seems to be a mentality that calling/writing your Member of Congress (or U.S. senator) will get results faster because they're more powerful since they're the federal government. What typically happens is that someone from the federal elected representative's field office will send the complaint to KYTC in Frankfort, along with a letter from the congressman or senator saying "I was recently contacted by my constituent Joe Blow concerning blah blah blah." That then gets forwarded to the district for a response that the KYTC Secretary signs and sends to the constituent. It doesn't mean the problem gets solved any faster, especially if the problem involves a county road or city street that is out of KYTC's jurisdiction. That happens often, too, because a lot of people think writing the governor will get a problem with a local road fixed. (It won't.)

I think that Maryland DOT and Virginia DOT handle things the same way.  A letter from a member of the U.S. House or U.S. Senate gets sent to the appropriate district (or if the road in question is maintained by a county or municipal government, to that locality - quite common in Maryland, since the counties maintain most of what Virginia would call "secondary" roads).   When the problem has been handled, either the secretary or someone else senior (SHA Administrator in Maryland, Commissioner of Highways in Virginia) sends that letter to the constituent and the Representative or Senator.

Best way to report a problem is to call the appropriate DOT office, or submit a request online. That computer process works better in Virginia than it does in Maryland, though the VDOT Web site has an annoying limit on the file size of submitted images (sending a geotagged image is apparently very helpful for the maintenance people that go out to fix the problem (or in the case of smashed guardrails, to mark the sections of guardrail that need to be replaced)).

Both states are reasonably good about getting stuff fixed.  Because VDOT has outsourced all of its Interstate maintenance to private contractors, I actually got a call within about 10 minutes from the contractor when I reported (to VDOT) that a bridge deck on I-66 had a collection of small but very annoying potholes, and the potholes were filled within a week.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: SP Cook on June 22, 2016, 10:29:07 AM
What HB describes is SOP for pretty much every congressman or senator, and not just with highways.  People write their congressman about all sorts of issues that are actually under state or even local control.  Some low level functionary send a letter "from" the congressman to whatever agency is actually responsible, and a reply letter is generated.  I have never, ever, ever, heard of any agency actually handling that person's concern any differently than anyone else's.  Nor should they.

Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: tckma on June 22, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
Quote from: GaryV on June 18, 2016, 07:55:15 PM
For other states where counties - and under them cities, towns, villages and townships - maintain the roads, where do the localities get their money?

As far as I can tell, for the most part in Michigan, counties get road money passed down from the state, primarily coming from gas taxes and registration fees.  Cities may get some too, I'm not sure of that.  Many cities have had to pass property tax proposals for road funds, and many local streets are paid for by special assessments on the adjacent properties.

It sounds like VA simply kept the whole pot and divvies it out by paying for roads, not by grants to local governments.

Virginia charges a property tax on vehicles, based on the vehicle's value.  (So does Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and West Virginia.  I'm not sure about other states)  The tax goes to the local jurisdiction.  Though, confusingly, when I lived in Virginia, I got my vehicle tax bill from Fairfax County.   The tax bill had was a line item that said "State of Virginia pays $XYZ" that was something like 75% of the tax due.

I imagine that this tax goes toward the maintenance of the roads, but I could be wrong.

New York has a better system where a tax is charged at registration time based on the vehicle's weight, rather than its value, and that tax is payable to the state.  This makes sense: heavier vehicles do more damage to the roads, not necessarily more expensive vehicles.

(Did you know there are parts of the City of Falls Church that are not part of the City of Falls Church for tax purposes but rather part of Fairfax County?  It confused the heck out of me when I lived in Falls Church.  Or Fairfax County.  I don't know where I lived.  Same confusion here in Maryland where I live in Westminster but I don't actually live in Westminster.)
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: oscar on June 22, 2016, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: tckma on June 22, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
(Did you know there are parts of the City of Falls Church that are not part of the City of Falls Church for tax purposes but rather part of Fairfax County?  It confused the heck out of me when I lived in Falls Church.  Or Fairfax County.  I don't know where I lived.  Same confusion here in Maryland where I live in Westminster but I don't actually live in Westminster.)

Which part of Falls Church, exactly, is within city limits but for tax purposes is in Fairfax County?
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: vdeane on June 22, 2016, 01:00:48 PM
I think it comes down to how the states thing of registration.  NY considers it to be a user fee for the road system.  My impression is that many states consider it to be just another property tax.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: jwolfer on June 22, 2016, 01:25:48 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 22, 2016, 01:00:48 PM
I think it comes down to how the states thing of registration.  NY considers it to be a user fee for the road system.  My impression is that many states consider it to be just another property tax.
Florida charges based on weight as well.. pre 1975 tags heavier cars has a w after County code... my mom had a 1968 Chrysler imperial.. huge car.  Her tag was" 2 w/w xxxx ". 2 for Duval smaller w over w to save space
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 01:43:28 PM
The reference to the Commonwealth paying part of the tax goes back to the 1997 gubernatorial race, when Jim Gilmore won on the appeal of his "No Car Tax" campaign. It was intended to eliminate the car tax on the first $20,000 of assessed value, though the phase-out was capped if the financial impact was too high (as it proved to be). But because localities rely on that tax revenue, the Commonwealth reimburses them for the part of the tax that was phased out. So the tax bill shows the total amount of tax, minus the car tax relief, plus any local registration fee (the "decal fee" in some Virginia jurisdictions). The car tax itself is deductible on your federal taxes if you itemize. The registration fee isn't because it's a flat fee.

I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though–just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: oscar on June 22, 2016, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 01:43:28 PM
I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though–just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.

The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 01:59:13 PM
Which is funny about the hospital, because when I was a kid we lived behind there in Strathmeade Square and our address was Annandale.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: SP Cook on June 22, 2016, 02:03:23 PM
My read of the Virginia Code, specifically 58 1-3005, seams to say that the county/city property tax, including that on cars, is just a tax, going to the jurisdiction to spend as it wants to.  It is not a special revenue account like fuel taxes that must be spent on roads. 

I know that is how my state works.  In WV, the property tax goes 78% to the school board and 22% to the general county budget to spend whatever way the school board or county commission appropriates it to be spent. 

As to the postal address idea, not uncommon nationwide.  Thousands of places like that.  The city limits might be one thing, but the post office draws it lines totally differently (and, to the extent it is still relevant, landline phone companies draw/drew their lines differently from both).  Near where I live there is a small town called Barboursville, and 97% of people that have a Barboursville postal address do not live in the town limits.

Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: dvferyance on June 22, 2016, 02:13:12 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 20, 2016, 08:07:14 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on June 20, 2016, 07:40:50 PM
I know this is off topic but I wanted to address my argument for the split routes in Indiana still being signed as a state highway. So Chicago can maintain roads that are signed a state highway. If so Indiana could do the same because it's being done elsewhere.

In Virginia, that is standard operating procedure for primary system routes (including bannered business and alternate roues) that pass through cities and towns.   They are maintained by the municipality, but are still (supposed to be) signed as a state or U.S. route.

Some Virginia municipalities a terrible job of signing those routes within their corporate limits.
So if it can be done In Virginia then Indiana should be able to do it as well and get rid of those split routes.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 22, 2016, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: oscar on June 22, 2016, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: tckma on June 22, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
(Did you know there are parts of the City of Falls Church that are not part of the City of Falls Church for tax purposes but rather part of Fairfax County?  It confused the heck out of me when I lived in Falls Church.  Or Fairfax County.  I don't know where I lived.  Same confusion here in Maryland where I live in Westminster but I don't actually live in Westminster.)

Which part of Falls Church, exactly, is within city limits but for tax purposes is in Fairfax County?

Not sure about that way, but there are large areas of Fairfax County that have a "Falls Church" city name assigned by the Postal Service even though they have nothing to do with the City of Falls Church. There's a possibly apocryphal story involving WMATA operating deficits and the City of Falls Church that is at least amusing.  WMATA operating deficits for rail and bus are allocated in part by where the riders of both systems live (based on regular surveys of riders). Supposedly, the city saved an enormous amount of money by having a member of its planning staff carefully go through the survey responses and move those responses listing "Falls Church" as the "city" of residence (but with a street address outside the city) to Fairfax County (thus reducing the city share of WMATA operating deficits and increasing the county share of those deficits).

However, in the not so distant past, a large swath of Fairfax County was serviced by the municipal city water department (details here (http://www.virginiaplaces.org/watersheds/fairfax-fallschurch.html)).  As part of the settlement of the water dispute between Fairfax County and the City of Falls Church, the city was allowed to annex some fairly small parcels of land (details near the end of that hyperlink (http://www.virginiaplaces.org/watersheds/fairfax-fallschurch.html)).

EDIT:  To better answer Oscar's question, the  George Mason High School and Mary Ellen Henderson Middle School complexes off of Haycock Road north of Va. 7 have long been owned by Falls Church and used for city students only, but located in Fairfax County.  There were some other (small) parcels belonging to the city that were in the county as well.  As a result of the settlement of the dispute between the city and the county, the city was allowed to annex these parcels that it already owned.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: tckma on June 22, 2016, 02:47:00 PM
Quote from: oscar on June 22, 2016, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: tckma on June 22, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
(Did you know there are parts of the City of Falls Church that are not part of the City of Falls Church for tax purposes but rather part of Fairfax County?  It confused the heck out of me when I lived in Falls Church.  Or Fairfax County.  I don't know where I lived.  Same confusion here in Maryland where I live in Westminster but I don't actually live in Westminster.)

Which part of Falls Church, exactly, is within city limits but for tax purposes is in Fairfax County?

ZIP code 22043.

I went to City Hall to register my car and motorcycle for local property tax, and was told I did not, in fact, live in Falls Church (then why does my address say Falls Church, VA 22043?).  Yet the Post Office said otherwise.  DMV allowed me to put "City of Falls Church" on my registration and driver's license, and sent me to City Hall for the local registration.  I did voter registration through DMV and voted in Fairfax County.

Similarly, my employer at the time was located in Tyson's Corner, but the postal address was Vienna, VA 22182.  That one confused me as well.

Same confusion applies to Westminster, MD 21158, though Maryland doesn't have excise tax on cars (thankfully, since it's a stupid tax that discourages the purchase of newer, safer cars).  I pay my property taxes and income taxes to Carroll County, but not to the City of Westminster, even though I live there.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: tckma on June 22, 2016, 02:55:08 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on June 22, 2016, 02:03:23 PM
My read of the Virginia Code, specifically 58 1-3005, seams to say that the county/city property tax, including that on cars, is just a tax, going to the jurisdiction to spend as it wants to.  It is not a special revenue account like fuel taxes that must be spent on roads. 

So it doesn't even go to road maintenance?  What the hell?

I wonder if that's the same in other states I've lived in (NH, MA) that charge a local excise tax.  I thought that's what excise tax was FOR.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2016, 03:00:06 PM
A Post Office's ZIP Code is supposed to have absolutely nothing to do with where one lives.  A ZIP Code is simply to assist the postal service in sorting and delivering the mail.

A lot of people interpret a ZIP code to be boundaries for municipalities or school districts (or in your case, property taxes), but in reality they have nothing to do with each other.   I've seen stories where someone moved into a town with a ZIP code that was associated with a prestigious school or something, only to find out their wonderful child will be going to a not-as-good school as they didn't live within the prestigious school district's boundaries.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: tckma on June 22, 2016, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2016, 03:00:06 PM
A Post Office's ZIP Code is supposed to have absolutely nothing to do with where one lives.  A ZIP Code is simply to assist the postal service in sorting and delivering the mail.

A lot of people interpret a ZIP code to be boundaries for municipalities or school districts (or in your case, property taxes), but in reality they have nothing to do with each other.   I've seen stories where someone moved into a town with a ZIP code that was associated with a prestigious school or something, only to find out their wonderful child will be going to a not-as-good school as they didn't live within the prestigious school district's boundaries.

The ZIP code itself, yes.  But, ZIP Code 11545, for example, has addresses of "Glen Head, NY 11545" and "Old Brookville, NY 11545."  This would seem to indicate that the town name on your mail is where you live.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 22, 2016, 03:12:08 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2016, 03:00:06 PM
A Post Office's ZIP Code is supposed to have absolutely nothing to do with where one lives.  A ZIP Code is simply to assist the postal service in sorting and delivering the mail.

A lot of people interpret a ZIP code to be boundaries for municipalities or school districts (or in your case, property taxes), but in reality they have nothing to do with each other.   I've seen stories where someone moved into a town with a ZIP code that was associated with a prestigious school or something, only to find out their wonderful child will be going to a not-as-good school as they didn't live within the prestigious school district's boundaries.

It gets more interesting in most (suburban) parts of Maryland and Virginia, because they are not usually incorporated.  Many people make the mistake of assuming that the Zip code dictates school attendance boundaries (because school districts are usually countywide or citywide, it does not mean anything in terms of school districts).  As with the smaller school districts in states like Pennsylvania, sometimes it leads to disappointment even though the districts are countywide (and Zip codes often, but not always, respect county and city lines).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: GaryV on June 22, 2016, 04:28:21 PM
Quote from: tckma on June 22, 2016, 02:47:00 PM
Quote from: oscar on June 22, 2016, 12:41:53 PM

Which part of Falls Church, exactly, is within city limits but for tax purposes is in Fairfax County?

ZIP code 22043.

I went to City Hall to register my car and motorcycle for local property tax, and was told I did not, in fact, live in Falls Church (then why does my address say Falls Church, VA 22043?).  Yet the Post Office said otherwise.  DMV allowed me to put "City of Falls Church" on my registration and driver's license, and sent me to City Hall for the local registration.  I did voter registration through DMV and voted in Fairfax County.

Your zip code and post office have nothing to do with what city limits your house may be inside of or outside of.

Jenison MI has a zip code (49428), a post office, and a school district, and is a CDP.  But it is an unincorporated location - it is part of Georgetown Twp.  There is no city or village of Jenison.  It's just a name made up, named after an early local family.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: lordsutch on June 22, 2016, 05:17:15 PM
Not to get even further down the rabbit hole, but the USPS compiles a list of valid "city names" for each ZIP code; these need not actually correspond to the jurisdiction in which one lives, because the USPS doesn't care - for example, you could put "Memphis TN 38138" or "Germantown TN 38138" on a letter, both of which are valid city names for that zip code, and as long as the zip code was right, it would get delivered to the right place regardless of whether the street address was legally in Memphis, Germantown, or unincorporated Shelby County.

About the only way to be certain what jurisdiction(s) correspond to a particular address is tax records. Voter registration records are usually right too. The Census Bureau's records are normally right as well, but even they can be out-of-date (their boundaries are only usually updated once a year for statistical purposes).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2016, 05:30:12 PM
Quote from: tckma on June 22, 2016, 03:03:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2016, 03:00:06 PM
A Post Office's ZIP Code is supposed to have absolutely nothing to do with where one lives.  A ZIP Code is simply to assist the postal service in sorting and delivering the mail.

A lot of people interpret a ZIP code to be boundaries for municipalities or school districts (or in your case, property taxes), but in reality they have nothing to do with each other.   I've seen stories where someone moved into a town with a ZIP code that was associated with a prestigious school or something, only to find out their wonderful child will be going to a not-as-good school as they didn't live within the prestigious school district's boundaries.

The ZIP code itself, yes.  But, ZIP Code 11545, for example, has addresses of "Glen Head, NY 11545" and "Old Brookville, NY 11545."  This would seem to indicate that the town name on your mail is where you live.

My zip code is shared by 6 different town names. I see it on junk mail all the time: regardless of the town name, if my street address and Zip is on there, it will get to me.

Really, all they need is your house number and zip+4 (12345-6789). Doent need a street name, don't need a town or state. Just those 2 items will allow a mailing to get to you.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: roadman65 on June 22, 2016, 05:31:10 PM
Remember NYC has only the official city name for the Borough of Manhattan.  Even though Staten Island is part of NYC, the post office gives it "Staten Island" as if its own city.  Ditto for The Bronx and Brooklyn and for Queens, the Post Office considers each neighborhood to be its own municipality such as mailing to the Elmhurst Neighborhood would use "Elmhurst, NY" on the mailing content.

I guess if you got the right zip code for Brooklyn and put down New York, NY it most likely will go there.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cl94 on June 22, 2016, 06:59:35 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 22, 2016, 05:31:10 PM
Remember NYC has only the official city name for the Borough of Manhattan.  Even though Staten Island is part of NYC, the post office gives it "Staten Island" as if its own city.  Ditto for The Bronx and Brooklyn and for Queens, the Post Office considers each neighborhood to be its own municipality such as mailing to the Elmhurst Neighborhood would use "Elmhurst, NY" on the mailing content.

I guess if you got the right zip code for Brooklyn and put down New York, NY it most likely will go there.

Queens is so different because it was the westernmost towns, villages, and hamlets of Nassau County and each was able to retain its identity after unification. Brooklyn (all of it) was an independent city, while the Bronx was annexed earlier. The towns on Staten Island were dissolved with unification, but unlike Queens, the mailing address became Staten Island.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 08:09:24 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on June 22, 2016, 05:17:15 PM
Not to get even further down the rabbit hole, but the USPS compiles a list of valid "city names" for each ZIP code; these need not actually correspond to the jurisdiction in which one lives, because the USPS doesn't care - for example, you could put "Memphis TN 38138" or "Germantown TN 38138" on a letter, both of which are valid city names for that zip code, and as long as the zip code was right, it would get delivered to the right place regardless of whether the street address was legally in Memphis, Germantown, or unincorporated Shelby County.

....

Yup. We can write ours as Alexandria, VA, or as Kingstowne, VA. I like to use the latter because otherwise people think we live in the People's Republic.

Regarding Brooklyn, I've sometimes been tempted to send something to my cousin using "Brooklyn 9, NY" instead of "11209," just to see whether it gets there.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: SP Cook on June 23, 2016, 09:53:29 AM
Re: zip codes and addresses.   WV just (in spite of a pretty clear Constitutional provision that specifically prohibits it) allowed cities to start charging a sales tax.  The mechanism that they used was that the state changed the sales tax rate for zip codes associated with the various cities, so it just shows up as one tax (7% rather than 6%) and the merchant pays the state, which then (after deducting a 0.1% for its trouble) pays 0.9% to the city. 

Except this taxes 1000s of businesses outside the city limits, since the zip code zones have nothing to do with the city lines at all.  The state's half-assed solution was, "well, save your receipts and then you can mail them to the city and they will refund you the money"  like anyone would do that.

Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: hbelkins on June 23, 2016, 01:08:03 PM
Kentucky's property taxes are similar to what was described for West Virginia. You get one real estate tax bill in the fall with the taxes listed for all taxing bodies (county, school board, special taxing districts) and you write one check, payable to the local sheriff. Vehicle property taxes are payable when you renew your registration and the various amounts owed to each jurisdiction are listed. You write one check, payable to the local county clerk.

As for ZIP codes, it's often the case in Kentucky that residents of a rural part of one county will have a mailing or physical address with a ZIP code or city name of that in a neighboring county. Case in point -- at least one elementary school in rural Breathitt County, Ky. (county seat is Jackson, KY 41339) has a mailing address of Booneville, KY 41314, as do all the residents in that area. Yet ask them where they live, and they will say "Jackson" instead of "Booneville."

This used to cause an issue for at least one subscriber to the weekly newspaper where I worked 30 years ago. He lived in Lee County but got his mail at a rural route mailbox with an address of McKee, KY (Jackson County). He always insisted on the in-county mail subscription rate because he actually did live in Lee County although he had an out-of-county mailing address.

I've never understood why so many post offices in rural Kentucky and West Virginia are located so close together. You can pass a post office every three or four miles if you travel some routes. In fact, I think the post office for Clearfield, Ky. is located within the city limits of Morehead.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 23, 2016, 01:38:11 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on June 23, 2016, 09:53:29 AM
Except this taxes 1000s of businesses outside the city limits, since the zip code zones have nothing to do with the city lines at all.  The state's half-assed solution was, "well, save your receipts and then you can mail them to the city and they will refund you the money"  like anyone would do that.

That is crazy, and quite possibly unlawful (do not quote me on that, as I am not a lawyer and definitely not admitted to practice law in West Virginia). With geographic information system (GIS) software and an up-to-date and accurate digital representation of the municipal boundaries, it is quite easy to determine exactly which businesses are subject to that tax and which are not.  IMO, a junior GIS analyst could do that work for the entire state of West Virginia in a week or two (in large part because there are only  a finite number of municipalities in the Mountaineer State).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 23, 2016, 01:43:43 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 23, 2016, 01:08:03 PM
Kentucky's property taxes are similar to what was described for West Virginia. You get one real estate tax bill in the fall with the taxes listed for all taxing bodies (county, school board, special taxing districts) and you write one check, payable to the local sheriff. Vehicle property taxes are payable when you renew your registration and the various amounts owed to each jurisdiction are listed. You write one check, payable to the local county clerk.

Maryland is similar, though the check goes to the County Treasury.

County property tax bills in Maryland normally show all of those "extras," though there are some municipalities that insist on mailing out their own property tax bills (if you live in a municipality other than Baltimore City, you will likely owe property tax to the county and to the municipality, though sometimes the county tax rate is lowered somewhat because the city or town provides some services that normally come from the county).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 23, 2016, 03:47:50 PM
Use the USPS Zip code locator system.  The zip code has nothing to do with what municpality that you reside in.

Take a look at this zip code alone.

Default City Name in ZIP Code™ 55126

Please use the default city whenever possible.

SAINT PAUL MN

Other city names recognized for addresses in 55126

ARDEN HILLS MN

NO OAKS MN

ROSEVILLE MN

SHOREVIEW MN

To minimize delivery delays, use the default or recognized city names for this ZIP Code™ rather than the following...

LINO LAKES MN
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 23, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 23, 2016, 01:38:11 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on June 23, 2016, 09:53:29 AM
Except this taxes 1000s of businesses outside the city limits, since the zip code zones have nothing to do with the city lines at all.  The state's half-assed solution was, "well, save your receipts and then you can mail them to the city and they will refund you the money"  like anyone would do that.

That is crazy, and quite possibly unlawful (do not quote me on that, as I am not a lawyer and definitely not admitted to practice law in West Virginia). With geographic information system (GIS) software and an up-to-date and accurate digital representation of the municipal boundaries, it is quite easy to determine exactly which businesses are subject to that tax and which are not.  IMO, a junior GIS analyst could do that work for the entire state of West Virginia in a week or two (in large part because there are only  a finite number of municipalities in the Mountaineer State).

Hell, I'm sure they knew this info 100 years ago. Its simply a lazyman's way of going about collecting money. Property tax bills no doubt have the lot number and taxes due to the appropriate city, town, or county, and it should simply have been if your business is within the limits of said city, collect the extra 1%. These businesses know if they're within the city limits.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: kphoger on June 23, 2016, 04:34:24 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on June 22, 2016, 02:03:23 PM
The city limits might be one thing, but the post office draws it lines totally differently (and, to the extent it is still relevant, landline phone companies draw/drew their lines differently from both).

I work in the telecom industry, and I'm familiar with the landline phone issue.  The divisions are known as rate centers.  You cannot transfer a phone number from one rate center to another.  For example, we have customers who move from one part of Tulsa (OK) to another part of Tulsa and then wonder why they couldn't keep their same phone number.  They moved within the same city and within the same area code, yet they crossed a rate center boundary.  It's happened before that a medical center with multiple phone lines moved literally across the street in northwest Arkansas and had to get all new numbers.  I tell people they may as well have moved to another state, as far as the phone network is concerned.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: GaryV on June 23, 2016, 05:02:07 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 08:09:24 PM

Regarding Brooklyn, I've sometimes been tempted to send something to my cousin using "Brooklyn 9, NY" instead of "11209," just to see whether it gets there.

Pre zip codes, my mom could address mail with "City 5" following the street address and it would get there, provided it was mailed in the city.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: kphoger on June 23, 2016, 05:08:46 PM
In the 1990s in a 15-bed hospital in the small town of Atwood (KS), my mom once treated a patient from eastern Kansas.  When that person returned home, she wanted to send a thank-you note to my mom but had no idea of her contact information.  So she addressed the envelope "Nurse Sue / Atwood, KS".  It got there.

Of course, that was the town where, if the UPS guy didn't find you at home, he'd attempt to deliver the package at your place of work instead.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: Bitmapped on June 23, 2016, 06:58:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 23, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 23, 2016, 01:38:11 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on June 23, 2016, 09:53:29 AM
Re: zip codes and addresses.   WV just (in spite of a pretty clear Constitutional provision that specifically prohibits it) allowed cities to start charging a sales tax.  The mechanism that they used was that the state changed the sales tax rate for zip codes associated with the various cities, so it just shows up as one tax (7% rather than 6%) and the merchant pays the state, which then (after deducting a 0.1% for its trouble) pays 0.9% to the city. 

Except this taxes 1000s of businesses outside the city limits, since the zip code zones have nothing to do with the city lines at all.  The state's half-assed solution was, "well, save your receipts and then you can mail them to the city and they will refund you the money"  like anyone would do that.

That is crazy, and quite possibly unlawful (do not quote me on that, as I am not a lawyer and definitely not admitted to practice law in West Virginia). With geographic information system (GIS) software and an up-to-date and accurate digital representation of the municipal boundaries, it is quite easy to determine exactly which businesses are subject to that tax and which are not.  IMO, a junior GIS analyst could do that work for the entire state of West Virginia in a week or two (in large part because there are only  a finite number of municipalities in the Mountaineer State).

Hell, I'm sure they knew this info 100 years ago. Its simply a lazyman's way of going about collecting money. Property tax bills no doubt have the lot number and taxes due to the appropriate city, town, or county, and it should simply have been if your business is within the limits of said city, collect the extra 1%. These businesses know if they're within the city limits.

SP Cook's explanation is not accurate.

Many businesses thought that because their mailing address was Charleston or wherever, they were in Charleston. They began collecting municipal sales tax on their own even though they should not have. See http://www.tristateupdate.com/story/23728989/people-being-unfairly-taxed-in-south-charleston-mayor-says for an example. While businesses should know where they are located, apparently many of them did not.

Businesses are responsible for determining which portion of their sales, if any, are subject to municipal sales tax and handling them accordingly. An information website is at http://tax.wv.gov/Business/SalesAndUseTax/LocalSalesAndUseTax/Pages/LocalSalesAndUseTax.aspx . The sales tax form that businesses must file with the state is here: http://tax.wv.gov/Documents/TaxForms/2015/cst200cu.pdf . Municipal sales taxes are listed on the same form and paid to the state, who distributes them to cities.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 23, 2016, 08:30:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2016, 05:08:46 PM
In the 1990s in a 15-bed hospital in the small town of Atwood (KS), my mom once treated a patient from eastern Kansas.  When that person returned home, she wanted to send a thank-you note to my mom but had no idea of her contact information.  So she addressed the envelope "Nurse Sue / Atwood, KS".  It got there.

Of course, that was the town where, if the UPS guy didn't find you at home, he'd attempt to deliver the package at your place of work instead.

Walter Gretzky's biography of his son said kids would send envelopes addressed only as "Wayne Gretzky, Kanada," and they'd make it to Edmonton correctly.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: kendancy66 on June 24, 2016, 02:02:23 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 18, 2016, 04:26:11 PM
The "private roads" thing surprises a lot of people. I recall there was a big stink out near Fairfax City when the person who, at the time, owned the section of Nutley Street between US-50 and US-29 constructed some big speed bumps. People went ballistic complaining to the Commonwealth and to Fairfax County and were shocked when they learned the road was privately-owned. I don't recall the details of how it was eventually resolved other than that the owner removed the speed bumps in return for some kind of government concession (I think VDOT took over maintenance).

I found an excerpt from a news article online, but I don't have access to the whole thing because I don't want to pay: https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1314617.html
I remember those speed bumps on that road. Isnt that the same road that has the 5 digit route number?
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 24, 2016, 07:24:34 AM
It's one of many roads with a five-digit route number, though in that particular case it's only that one segment (north of US-29, it's VA-243 up to Route 123 in Vienna).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: SP Cook on June 24, 2016, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: Bitmapped on June 23, 2016, 06:58:22 PM


SP Cook's explanation is not accurate.

Many businesses thought that because their mailing address was Charleston or wherever, they were in Charleston.


That is simply incorrect.  All businesses know exactly what town they have to buy a licenes from and pay B&O taxes to.  The system dunned businesses for difficencies based on zip codes.

The state has YET to fix the problem.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 24, 2016, 04:36:52 PM
Quote from: oscar on June 22, 2016, 01:52:47 PM
The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).

My late aunt and uncle lived on Pinetree Terrace (their part of Pinetree Terrace was a dead end) in the Lake Barcroft area (near Bailey's Crossroads) of Fairfax County (closest arterial was Va. 244, Columbia Pike). They always had a Falls Church mail address, even though Lake Barcroft is not all that close to the City of Falls Church (almost 4 miles from the Falls Church to Pinetree Terrace).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: kendancy66 on June 25, 2016, 12:09:45 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 24, 2016, 07:24:34 AM
It's one of many roads with a five-digit route number, though in that particular case it's only that one segment (north of US-29, it's VA-243 up to Route 123 in Vienna).
I was only talking about the section from the Micro Center to US-50.  I did not realize that there were more 5 digit route numbers though.  I only recall seeing that one in Fairfax.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: kendancy66 on June 25, 2016, 12:12:00 AM
Quote from: oscar on June 22, 2016, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 01:43:28 PM
I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though–just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.

The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).
Thanks for verifying that my son was born in Falls Church, instead of Fairfax.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: froggie on June 25, 2016, 08:32:46 AM
QuoteI was only talking about the section from the Micro Center to US-50.  I did not realize that there were more 5 digit route numbers though.  I only recall seeing that one in Fairfax.

As of 2011, there were several hundred 5-digit routes scattered all over Fairfax County.  I know some of them are signed, but I don't know the status of all of them.  While most are residential roads and/or cul-de-sacs, there are a few besides the south end of Nutley St that are collector or arterial roads.  For example, in 1995hoo's "part of the world", the east end of Kingstowne Blvd is SR 10421, and Walker Ln is SR 10026 (and signed as such).

On a side note, the highest numbered route in 2011 was SR 10657, which is Oak Rock Ct and located near Manassas near VA 28 and Green Trails Blvd.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: oscar on June 25, 2016, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: kendancy66 on June 25, 2016, 12:12:00 AM
Quote from: oscar on June 22, 2016, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 01:43:28 PM
I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though–just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.

The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).
Thanks for verifying that my son was born in Falls Church, instead of Fairfax.

What place of birth is shown on his birth certificate? Inova Fairfax is well outside Falls Church city limits, but in an unincorporated area of Fairfax County that's not particularly close to Fairfax independent city.

Inova or its predecessor used to have a hospital in or very close to Fairfax city. I don't know if it handled childbirths, before its acute care services (except the emergency room) were closed and consolidated with the current Inova Fairfax hospital.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: Mapmikey on June 25, 2016, 11:07:39 AM
QuoteOn a side note, the highest numbered route in 2011 was SR 10657, which is Oak Rock Ct and located near Manassas near VA 28 and Green Trails Blvd.

The 2015 Fairfax County Traffic Log shows 10657 to still be the highest one.

Many of the 5 digit routes are signed.

I don't have many pics (riding around Northern Virginia for fun is not my thing.  Doing it for my commute is my jam...), but I do have one of 10500 which is off of VA 193:


(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Fsr10500.jpg&hash=bf94d695de27dd8eac9753f38b8d2e155c256122)

Aug 2006
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 25, 2016, 12:10:08 PM
Quote from: oscar on June 25, 2016, 09:55:49 AM
....

Inova or its predecessor used to have a hospital in or very close to Fairfax city. I don't know if it handled childbirths, before its acute care services (except the emergency room) were closed and consolidated with the current Inova Fairfax hospital.

I believe that would be the former Commonwealth Hospital on Route 123? It's just inside the city limits. I couldn't tell you what services it provided either. I've been there once–I was taken to the ER there the day after my 16th birthday due to an accident at school, though ultimately they transferred me (not by ambulance) to Fairfax Hospital for surgery. I know there's still an ER there today, but it's no longer called Commonwealth.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 25, 2016, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 25, 2016, 08:32:46 AM
QuoteI was only talking about the section from the Micro Center to US-50.  I did not realize that there were more 5 digit route numbers though.  I only recall seeing that one in Fairfax.

As of 2011, there were several hundred 5-digit routes scattered all over Fairfax County.  I know some of them are signed, but I don't know the status of all of them.  While most are residential roads and/or cul-de-sacs, there are a few besides the south end of Nutley St that are collector or arterial roads.  For example, in 1995hoo's "part of the world", the east end of Kingstowne Blvd is SR 10421, and Walker Ln is SR 10026 (and signed as such).

On a side note, the highest numbered route in 2011 was SR 10657, which is Oak Rock Ct and located near Manassas near VA 28 and Green Trails Blvd.

There are a few off of Va. 695 (Idylwood Road) in Merrifield/Pimmit Hills/Falls Church (your choice ;-) ) area of Fairfax County like these (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8967013,-77.2047188,3a,15y,98.6h,86.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scn6d5r_TW0GTdD42gHUwlA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: kendancy66 on July 31, 2016, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: oscar on June 25, 2016, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: kendancy66 on June 25, 2016, 12:12:00 AM
Quote from: oscar on June 22, 2016, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 22, 2016, 01:43:28 PM
I think the comment about Falls Church indicates confusion about the USPS assigning Falls Church addresses to places in Fairfax County. That doesn't mean those addresses are in the City of Falls Church, though–just like the Post Office says my address in Alexandria, but I live in (and pay taxes and vote in) Fairfax County.

The city of Falls Church is tiny (fortunately, since it's all a speed trap), but Falls Church postal addresses extend well beyond city limits and indeed reach west of the Beltway (for example, Inova Fairfax Hospital claims a Falls Church postal address).
Thanks for verifying that my son was born in Falls Church, instead of Fairfax.

What place of birth is shown on his birth certificate? Inova Fairfax is well outside Falls Church city limits, but in an unincorporated area of Fairfax County that's not particularly close to Fairfax independent city.

Inova or its predecessor used to have a hospital in or very close to Fairfax city. I don't know if it handled childbirths, before its acute care services (except the emergency room) were closed and consolidated with the current Inova Fairfax hospital.
I was remembering that it was odd to me that Inova Fairfax hospital on Gallows Rd would have a Falls Church address.  I would have assumed it would be Fairfax or something like Annandale which seems closer to the actual location than Falls Church.   I never had really investigated why

The birth certificate lists Fairfax COUNTY as location, so not help there.  Maybe the Fairfax in the hospital name refers to the county instead of the city?

Anyway, seeing your post reminded me of this issue.  That is why responded to it.

SAMSUNG-SGH-I747

Title: Re: Why is every road in Virgina other than in the cities maintained by V DOT?
Post by: famartin on August 11, 2016, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 18, 2016, 02:42:02 PM
For the sake of completeness, it may also be worth noting there are lots of "private" roads in Virginia in the sense that while they're open to the public, they're owned and maintained by private entities. The typical example, especially in Northern Virginia but by no means limited to here, is roads owned by homeowners' associations. HOA dues pay for the maintenance, to include repaving, sealcoating, plowing, etc. I live on such a street in Kingstowne and it sometimes leads to the weird situation during the winter where our street is nicely plowed by the HOA plow but you can't go far because the VDOT System street to which ours connects has not yet seen a plow (the HOA plow is not permitted to clear VDOT roads for liability reasons). It also leads to the somewhat more annoying situation of our street being in excellent condition and the VDOT System street having a few washboard-like sections where they didn't do a very good job of repairing potholes.

As Mike notes, it's pretty common for VDOT System roads to have been built by developers as part of the "proffers" required by the county as conditions to building something, especially a neighborhood.

That situation with the HOA road plowing happened to me too, except I could just barely get out on the VDOT road (fortunately).

I get the VDOT system, but I wish all the 600+ routes would just be signed as county roads (since all the numbers get duplicated), instead of "state secondary".  Minor difference but would ease the confusion of 'why is there a SR 606 that don't connect in distant counties'?
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: Avalanchez71 on August 11, 2016, 12:53:57 PM
They could cluster better rather than having 600s in every adjacent county.  They could do a system like using 600s, 700s, 800s, and 900s in different regions going back and repeating.  Cases would arise wherin 600s may need to in adjacent counties but this would be a better system.
Title: Re: Why is every road in Virginia other than in the cities maintained by VDOT?
Post by: froggie on August 11, 2016, 02:02:34 PM
QuoteThey could do a system like using 600s, 700s, 800s, and 900s in different regions going back and repeating.

No they couldn't.  There are numerous counties in the state with enough roads to where they would need all four of those ranges within the same county, and then some.  Most counties would need at least 2 or three of those.

In short, due to the number and volume of streets/roads in several counties, your suggestion would not work.