Poll
Question:
Do you have/want kids?
Option 1: I already have kids and want more in the future
votes: 1
Option 2: I already have kids and I'm done having them
votes: 7
Option 3: I have kids and grandkids
votes: 3
Option 4: I don't have kids but I want them in the future
votes: 6
Option 5: I don't have kids but I might want then in the future
votes: 12
Option 6: I don't have kids and I don't want any in the future
votes: 12
Thought this could be an interesting topic to discuss. Share as you much as you wish.
I don't have any, my wife and I wouldn't be opposed to just one. We have tried, but it doesn't like it's going to happen given that we are several years in. I don't think either of us would exactly be super upset if we didn't end up having a kid given all the extra money and time is something we both like.
I decided for a number of reasons that having kids is not for me.
-Being autistic and struggling with the sensory aspects (screaping, pooping, vomiting, etc.)
-My interests in travel plus my career in media where I expect to be away from home and/or relocating frequently
-The desire to end the cycles of abuse my parents did to me, as my grandparents did to them, and so forth. I will be the last of my line to go through that pain.
I don't particularly want kids because I don't think I'd be a good parent, and I don't think I'd enjoy the experience. However, if I had a partner that I really liked and that was a dealbreaker for them, I might reconsider it.
As much as I love kids and advocate for children's rights, I can't imagine many nightmares worse happening to me than accidentally getting someone pregnant. I plan to get a full vasectomy, before losing virginity.
@Scott, ironically, for me, an insistence on having kids would be the deal breaker.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 23, 2023, 11:02:31 PM
As much as I love kids and advocate for children's rights, I can't imagine many nightmares worse happening to me than accidentally getting someone pregnant. I plan to get a full vasectomy, before losing virginity.
@Scott, ironically, for me, an insistence on having kids would be the deal breaker.
Good
My fiancee and I have agreed we don't want kids.
When first married, I was reluctant to have kids. Money was already an issue, and kids do make it even tighter. But I eventually agreed, and we had one. I'm glad we did. Yes, it's expensive, and a lot of work, and gives the parents a lot less free time. Childcare from age 1 to 5 (starting school, probably) costs as much as college, except there's no financial aid or discounted loans. But it's tremendously rewarding as well. Kid is now at college, so the time demands are much smaller! (Instead there's the Empty Nest.) And finances are not as tight now as they were when the kid was little. I've had a surgery a couple of months ago and will be having another soon, and the kid has absolutely been there to take care of me during recovery. You can't get that kind of love from a big bank account.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 23, 2023, 11:02:31 PM
@Scott, ironically, for me, an insistence on having kids would be the deal breaker.
It might be for me too. I don't know, I haven't ever been in that situation, and I have a feeling it might depend on what kind of person the other person is. My only long term partner never wanted kids, and ended up getting a hysterectomy for unrelated reasons anyway, so it's never been a serious question I've had to answer.
Then again, a future partner of mine won't necessarily be female, so I may well continue to dodge the question indefinitely. :P
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 23, 2023, 11:53:40 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 23, 2023, 11:02:31 PM
@Scott, ironically, for me, an insistence on having kids would be the deal breaker.
It might be for me too. I don't know, I haven't ever been in that situation, and I have a feeling it might depend on what kind of person the other person is. My only long term partner never wanted kids, and ended up getting a hysterectomy for unrelated reasons anyway, so it's never been a serious question I've had to answer.
Then again, a future partner of mine won't necessarily be female, so I may well continue to dodge the question indefinitely. :P
Gay couples can still have kids.
Even if I wanted a kid, it would be by adoption. Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
4 kids, 1 grandchild.
4 kids grown, no grandchildren on the horizon, and it looks like it will stay that way. But someone may surprise us.
We have one 14 month old and I think we're one and one. A) I'm 40 and I'm fine being the old dad, but I don't want to be the old, old dad. B) My wife had a really hard labor and neither of us wants her to go through that again. C) Our son is pretty perfect and had a relatively easy infant phase, so #2 is statistically more likely to be a terror.
I already have kids, and I'm done.
My wife wanted four kids, one girl and one boy. Our third kid was boy #3, so she really wanted to keep going and see if #4 would be a girl, at least. But #3 was a Very Difficult Baby. I describe the first year of his life as being like crawling through a long, dark tunnel, and you can't see any light at the end of the tunnel–but you know that, if you keep crawling, eventually you'll see the light. It was hard. (Now I probably love that kid more than the others. But don't tell them that. :D) I asked my wife one day, Can you guarantee that, if we have another baby, it'll be easier? And she couldn't. So we stopped. And now she's super glad we stopped.
I also have a fourth child, from back before my wife and I were together. However, she was adopted by her stepfather long ago, and our lives have completely drifted apart. No grandkids on that side yet, though.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
As a famous forum incident I was involved with demonstrates, that's certainly not the consensus opinion.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 09:34:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
As a famous forum incident I was involved with demonstrates, that's certainly not the consensus opinion.
One person is not a consensus.
My wife & I have entered the "it happens when it happens" stage - it took me a bit longer than her to warm up to the idea for reasons similar to TheHighwayMan394 such as sensory issues and wanting to break toxic family cycles, but I've come a long way in unpacking stuff from my childhood & I feel ready for the challenge now. The main thing I wanted to get out of the way first was the PE exam, which I pulled off just before the new year - I heard enough horror stories from colleagues about studying while raising kids that I definitely wanted to knock out that career milestone first.
I'm definitely in the "ideally at least one of each" camp, but similar to what kphoger noted there probably needs to be a cutoff in mind should they keep coming out all boys or all girls.
Quote from: 1 on February 24, 2023, 09:35:53 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 09:34:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
As a famous forum incident I was involved with demonstrates, that's certainly not the consensus opinion.
One person is not a consensus.
I know a great many in the road community share similar sentiments but they just aren't as negative/ugly about it.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
Not always for that human however. At least with adopting you are actually improving the life of...someone who already exists.
Adoption is a great option and I'm certainly glad it exists. There is something "biologically satisfying" about having a child of your own and going through the whole process from beginning to end though. It's tough to describe to someone who hasn't gone through it.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Adoption is a great option and I'm certainly glad it exists. There is something "biologically satisfying" about having a child of your own and going through the whole process from beginning to end though. It's tough to describe to someone who hasn't gone through it.
I always found that an interesting take given I know that's a thing for a lot of people. Our niece oldest niece isn't related to me by blood but is someone I didn't hesitate get temporary custody when she got taken from her mom. We had the adoption papers ready to go in case my brother in law couldn't get custody (he did ultimately). I went as far as to buy repaint a room for her and bought new furniture given she stayed with us for half a year.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 10:21:47 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
Not always for that human however. At least with adopting you are actually improving the life of...someone who already exists.
So you're saying that someone who would be a good adoptive parent would
not be a good biological parent?
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:15:11 AM
My wife wanted four kids, one girl and one boy. Our third kid was boy #3, so she really wanted to keep going and see if #4 would be a girl, at least.
My mom's cousin had 5 girls (including a set of twins) before they finally got a boy. I'm not sure if it was the plan to keep trying to get a boy.
Quote from: GaryV on February 24, 2023, 10:50:39 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 10:21:47 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
Not always for that human however. At least with adopting you are actually improving the life of...someone who already exists.
So you're saying that someone who would be a good adoptive parent would not be a good biological parent?
No, I am saying that creating a new human without their consent is potentially subjecting them to suffering, whereas adopting a kid and getting them out of a shitty abusive overpopulated foster home is making a net positive difference because you are improving the life of someone who already is struggling and already exists.
Babies who get adopted are not required to give their consent.
But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Creating a new human just adds to the joy and wonder of our world.
Neither are correct.
No kids. Neither my wife nor I ever wanted any.
I think I'm best suited as an uncle.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:15:11 AM
My wife wanted four kids, one girl and one boy.
I feel like there's a math error here. :-D
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:45:26 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Adoption is a great option and I'm certainly glad it exists. There is something "biologically satisfying" about having a child of your own and going through the whole process from beginning to end though. It's tough to describe to someone who hasn't gone through it.
I always found that an interesting take given I know that's a thing for a lot of people. Our niece oldest niece isn't related to me by blood but is someone I didn't hesitate get temporary custody when she got taken from her mom. We had the adoption papers ready to go in case my brother in law couldn't get custody (he did ultimately). I went as far as to buy repaint a room for her and bought new furniture given she stayed with us for half a year.
Not to be too TMI, but my wife had to have an emergency C-section with our son. She suffered with some mental health issues because of it. It turns out, if the baby isn't delivered vaginally, the woman's body "doesn't realize they gave birth" and the chemicals and hormones released afterwards are different and/or missing. Similar, but obviously less "potent" issues affect fathers too.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 11:05:29 AM
But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.
So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 24, 2023, 11:47:29 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 09:15:11 AM
My wife wanted four kids, one girl and one boy.
I feel like there's a math error here. :-D
Seriously? Did I seriously do that? 2+2=4
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:17:22 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 11:05:29 AM
But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.
So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?
That depends on your living situation. 2-3 kids can go either way, by in general I think the people who have 5+ kids are selfish/impulsive. I think alot of the people who just think "oh let's have a bunch of cute things to cuddle with and take pictures with" aren't thinking long term about the actual work that has to be put in, and that they still can't just dump babysitting responsibilities and other parenting obligations on older siblings. In addition, its not fair to the older kids if they don't have a say in whether they want siblings or not. I think alot of the reproducing today is about instant gratification and the results ofunsafe sex. I honestly feel alot of people who have so many kids are treating them as collectables/property. Or some people are just naive and think it's the equivalent work of having a pet.
By far, most of the reproduction today is not due to unsafe sex. I don't have numbers in front of me, but the vast majority of babies are born into committed relationships.
Committed Relationship does not = planned pregnancy.
They might not see it as big of a deal to accidentally have a kid if they're married and everything but that doesn't mean they necessarily wanted a kid then.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
Creating a new human just adds to problems like what the adopted kid can go through before adoption.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 10:21:47 AM
At least with adopting you are actually improving the life of...someone who already exists.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 11:05:29 AM
So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:17:22 PM
So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 12:33:50 PM
That depends on your living situation.
Why does it depend on my situation? Isn't everything you just said true for me?
But OK, I'll bite. What details about my "situation" do you need to know in order to judge my wife and me correctly?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 12:33:50 PM
I honestly feel alot of people who have so many kids are treating them as collectables/property. Or some people are just naive and think it's the equivalent work of having a pet.
I used to live with a man who said he thinks of adoption as the equivalent of getting a pet.
You know what? I think I'd like a child. Let's go out and buy one.I'm not saying I agree with him, and my own mother was adopted, but I thought it was an interesting contrast to your position.
I'm not married, but I'm semi-actively searching for the right woman. A desire to have children is a non-negotiable for me. Ideally, I'd like at least 3.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 12:33:50 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:17:22 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 11:05:29 AM
But they already exist, you're not bringing onto the planet a new human that didn't exist before. So all the potential suffering in the world you would be risking a birth child to by bringing them into existence, already exists for the adopted baby. So you aren't worsening that risk. So unless you are the Turpin "parents" you are likely improving their lives.
So what is your opinion of the decision my wife and I made to have three children?
That depends on your living situation. 2-3 kids can go either way, by in general I think the people who have 5+ kids are selfish/impulsive. I think alot of the people who just think "oh let's have a bunch of cute things to cuddle with and take pictures with" aren't thinking long term about the actual work that has to be put in, and that they still can't just dump babysitting responsibilities and other parenting obligations on older siblings. In addition, its not fair to the older kids if they don't have a say in whether they want siblings or not. I think alot of the reproducing today is about instant gratification and the results ofunsafe sex. I honestly feel alot of people who have so many kids are treating them as collectables/property. Or some people are just naive and think it's the equivalent work of having a pet.
My comrade on this board from the Merrimack Valley has joked that MMM is George Santos, but these anti-reproduction rants come off as similar to a female congress critter from MMM's neck of the woods.
I wonder if MMM has had a panic attack when he saw his first garbage disposal...
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 12:33:50 PM
I think alot of the reproducing today is about instant gratification and the results ofunsafe sex.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2023, 12:36:18 PM
By far, most of the reproduction today is not due to unsafe sex. I don't have numbers in front of me, but the vast majority of babies are born into committed relationships.
In 2020, 61% of abortions in the USA were unmarried, non-cohabiting mothers.
In 2020, 25% of abortions in the USA were unmarried, cohabiting mothers.
In 2020, 20% of all pregnancies in the USA ended in abortion.
In 2020, 4% of pregnancies among married women in the USA ended in abortion.
Just from those four statistics alone, I'd say it's quite clear that "the vast majority of babies are born into committed relationships".
MMMs beliefs are just whatever pisses us off the most
Just the fact that those stats exist prove my point. And no, I am not judging anyone specifically, some people have 10 kids and treat them all great, but when you ask for my opinion, I'm going to be honest. And I'm not getting into any political abortion debate or other controversial crap. It's not an anti-reproduction or pro-eugenics rant to say that having 4-5+ kids in a world that's increasing at a rate of 80,000,000/year and a couple decades away from overpopulation, is irresponsible. Finances, physical health, work hours, location..etc are all indicators of whether it was a good idea to have kids. And people can say all they want "but WhO cArEs aBoUt MoNeY its a HuMaN life its a beautiful precious gift from god", that doesn't change the fact that you are going to need money to feed it.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 02:26:01 PM
Just the fact that those stats exist prove my point. And no, I am not judging anyone specifically, some people have 10 kids and treat them all great, but when you ask for my opinion, I'm going to be honest. And I'm not getting into any political abortion debate or other controversial crap. It's not an anti-reproduction or pro-eugenics rant to say that having 4-5+ kids in a world that's increasing at a rate of 80,000,000/year and a couple decades away from overpopulation, is irresponsible. Finances, physical health, work hours, location..etc are all indicators of whether it was a good idea to have kids. And people can say all they want "but WhO cArEs aBoUt MoNeY its a HuMaN life its a beautiful precious gift from god", that doesn't change the fact that you are going to need money to feed it.
If you can pay for and support 4-5 kids that's fine. The US, where most of us live, is not in any danger of overpopulation. The growth of the world's population is already slowing due to crashing birth rates in much of the developing world.
Even if it's only 60,000,000 a year, it will reach overpopulation eventually. The US is already having issues with baby formula shortage..how does adding more babies help with that? And another totally unmentioned point was how it affects the kids themselves. What if an already struggling teen doesn't want to have 4 siblings?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 02:26:01 PM
I am not judging anyone specifically
Everything you say represents specific people. There's a good chance some of those people read your posts on this very forum. If you don't want your comments to be applied to specific people, then don't make blanket statements.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 02:26:01 PM
It's not an anti-reproduction or pro-eugenics rant to say that having 4-5+ kids...
I'm good friends with multiple couples who have 4+ kids. So I'm going to apply everything you say about "having 4-5+ kids" to them. You opinions about "those people" are your opinions about Jason and Stephanie, Will and Sarah, ...
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 02:26:01 PM
... in a world that's increasing at a rate of 80,000,000/year and a couple decades away from overpopulation,
My state's population has only gone up by less than 25,000 people in the last three years (2019 to 2022). That's a total population increase of less than 1%. Half of those years saw a 0% population increase. I don't live in Bangladesh.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 02:26:01 PM
... is irresponsible. Finances, physical health, work hours, location..etc are all indicators of whether it was a good idea to have kids. And people can say all they want "but WhO cArEs aBoUt MoNeY its a HuMaN life its a beautiful precious gift from god", that doesn't change the fact that you are going to need money to feed it.
And that brings me back to my original question:
What details about my "situation" do you need to know in order to judge my wife and me correctly? How much gross income should a couple have to make in order for it to have a third child? What should our work hours look like?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 02:32:56 PM
The US is already having issues with baby formula shortage..how does adding more babies help with that?
All of the babies I personally know right now who are young enough to need a bottle (three babies) are breastfed exclusively. Their births have had zero influence on any baby formula shortage.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 02:32:56 PM
And another totally unmentioned point was how it affects the kids themselves. What if an already struggling teen doesn't want to have 4 siblings?
What if an already struggling teen wishes he had siblings, but he doesn't?
How many siblings do you have, MMM?
Of all the things MMM has shit in this thread, going after foster homes is pretty low-brow yet totally on-brand for MMM.
Those people save lives, with very little offered in return. I guess since you saw a TV episode of God knows what where kids came from a bad one they must all be bad.
Look at the condition of them, give me a break. And when I say that it may negatively affect the child having multiple kids, that's not even claiming intentional child abuse, that's just being human. No matter how hard you try, it is going to be much harder to care as well for 4-5+ kids simulatenously than 1-3. That's just the fact of being human. And to try to claim that most ACS facilities are good? Pfft. Again, no 2-3 people can effectively and optimally care for 20+ kids.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
I am not trying to offend any specific married couple ... There's no reason to have more than 3 kids.
You just offended anyone with more than 3 kids.
There's nothing offensive in that statement.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
where you live
Wichita, KS
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
how much of your income is blown in rent/groceries
Rent, approx. 20%. However, when we were first married and started having children, it was more like 40%.
Groceries, I'd have to do some calculation. This is the first year in a long time that we didn't qualify for food stamps, so I'm not quite sure how much we spend on groceries nowadays.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
how much in savings you have
About a thousand bucks, plus whatever tax refund comes in this year.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
your physical health
Normal, I guess. My wife and I don't have health insurance, though. Too expensive.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
so there no specific answer for income. 6 figures minimum I'd say, definitely.
I have a family of five, and you'd have to
double our combined income to hit six figures.
Now judge me. And my wife.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:30:02 PM
There's nothing offensive in that statement.
You're saying that anyone with more than 3 kids is making the world a worse place. That, if anything, they should have adopted instead.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
where you live
Wichita, KS
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
how much of your income is blown in rent/groceries
Rent, approx. 20%. However, when we were first married and started having children, it was more like 40%.
Groceries, I'd have to do some calculation. This is the first year in a long time that we didn't qualify for food stamps, so I'm not quite sure how much we spend on groceries nowadays.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
how much in savings you have
About a thousand bucks, plus whatever tax refund comes in this year.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
your physical health
Normal, I guess. My wife and I don't have health insurance, though. Too expensive.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
so there no specific answer for income. 6 figures minimum I'd say, definitely.
I have a family of five, and you'd have to double our combined income to hit six figures.
Now judge me. And my wife.
I'm not going to judge you, but having 3 kids on food stamps doesn't sound very fun to me, but you might feel differently. Also how do you live without health insurance? I know that the US health system is fucked but are you not worried about a member of your family getting sick or hurt and having a big medical expense?
Not judging your family (like MMM would), I'm just curious.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 03:39:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
where you live
Wichita, KS
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
how much of your income is blown in rent/groceries
Rent, approx. 20%. However, when we were first married and started having children, it was more like 40%.
Groceries, I'd have to do some calculation. This is the first year in a long time that we didn't qualify for food stamps, so I'm not quite sure how much we spend on groceries nowadays.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
how much in savings you have
About a thousand bucks, plus whatever tax refund comes in this year.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
your physical health
Normal, I guess. My wife and I don't have health insurance, though. Too expensive.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:09:01 PM
so there no specific answer for income. 6 figures minimum I'd say, definitely.
I have a family of five, and you'd have to double our combined income to hit six figures.
Now judge me. And my wife.
I'm not going to judge you, but having 3 kids on food stamps doesn't sound very fun to me, but you might feel differently. Also how do you live without health insurance? I know that the US health system is fucked but are you not worried about a member of your family getting sick or hurt and having a big medical expense?
Not judging your family (like MMM would), I'm just curious.
Happiness is where you find it. Often it is not a template despite what popular perception would have you believe.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 03:39:07 PM
I'm not going to judge you, but having 3 kids on food stamps doesn't sound very fun to me
Fun? You just pay for your groceries using two forms of payment. *shrug*
Actually, when COVID-19 hit, the state started giving out more money to food stamp recipients, and it lasted for a couple of years. It got the point that we were getting more from the state than we could spend at the store. So one time we went on a shopping spree and gave the groceries to a family we knew who needed them, and then we also started buying extra meat for the deep freeze. I guess, really, you could say that was kind of fun.
But otherwise, food stamps are just another piece of plastic in your wallet.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 03:39:07 PM
Also how do you live without health insurance?
It's pretty easy. We don't go to the doctor.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 03:39:07 PM
I know that the US health system is fucked but are you not worried about a member of your family getting sick or hurt and having a big medical expense?
Yes. A couple of weeks ago, I slightly dislocated my shoulder while doing some cardio in the living room with dumbbells (exercise is bad for you!), and I was worried for a few days that it was a torn rotator cuff and would eventually require surgery. Heart disease runs in my family and, the one time in the last two decades I've actually had blood work done, it showed I have borderline cholesterol–so I do worry about that, although diet and exercise have helped a lot. Then, too, cancer runs in my wife's family.
But worrying about stuff like that doesn't magically make health insurance premiums affordable.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:45:35 PM
Your family sounds pretty well off (I don't know what the cost of living is in Wichita though).
Our rent is far below average, because we have awesome landlords. And I suppose we're about average when it comes to standard of living. But we aren't "pretty well off" by any American standard.
Then again, I spend time in small-town Mexico, by whose standards we live like kings...
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 03:54:15 PM
That's why I said where you live is crucial. 20% if income goes torental? It's like 80% here in NY, but health insurance is a must, even just for emergency room visits. I myself was in the hospital for 2 days with covid back in July (and am fully vaxxed). And that's a good example, it's a risk not to get your kids regular check-ups/medical care when needed due to lack of insurance. I was admitted to the hospital one other time in my life with GI pain/bleeding, and you know how much they charged for 3 nights? $30,000.
Our kids have Medicaid.
And you apparently don't realize that a health insurance plan for a family of five would cost more than $30,000 over the course of just two years–just to have coverage, not counting out-of-pocket expenses like deductible and copay.
This is why we need universal healthcare in the US
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:15:55 PM
This is why we need universal healthcare in the US
Do we though? What about actually making healthcare actually reasonably affordable. Problem is that government mandate and oversite are never popular in the U.S.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:15:55 PM
This is why we need universal healthcare in the US
Do we though? What about actually making healthcare actually reasonably affordable. Problem is that government mandate and oversite are never popular in the U.S.
Well anything that makes healthcare more affordable for normal people is a plus in my book.
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:15:55 PM
This is why we need universal healthcare in the US
Do we though? What about actually making healthcare actually reasonably affordable. Problem is that government mandate and oversite are never popular in the U.S.
Universal healthcare seems to be the only way that any developed country that has sought to make healthcare reasonably affordable has actually managed to achieve it.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Wow we actually agree on something!
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:25:50 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Wow we actually agree on something!
Still need liability at a minimum.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:25:50 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Wow we actually agree on something!
Well also because you are likely going to need your health insurance more in a serious car crash than the car insurance. A hybrid of universal health and car care would make life so much more affordable.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Car insurance covers other people. Health insurance covers yourself.
The equivalent to life without health insurance is driving with liability only.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2023, 04:23:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:15:55 PM
This is why we need universal healthcare in the US
Do we though? What about actually making healthcare actually reasonably affordable. Problem is that government mandate and oversite are never popular in the U.S.
Universal healthcare seems to be the only way that any developed country that has sought to make healthcare reasonably affordable has actually managed to achieve it.
"Affordable" is complicated. For example, my American income would be more than enough to cover paying cash for routine in-patient and out-patient healthcare if I were living in Mexico. At the most, I'd just need catastrophic coverage. Mexican citizens have universal coverage because it's unaffordable otherwise, while American expats can afford to pay cash.
Don't have kids/don't want kids. Being an uncle is enough.
Ugh. Too many threads are going to the dogs because of MMM. Every time I dare let an off-topic thread draw my interest, he comes in and derails it.
Quote from: Rothman on February 24, 2023, 05:33:01 PM
Ugh. Too many threads are going to the dogs because of MMM. Every time I dare let an off-topic thread draw my interest, he comes in and derails it.
To the dogs you say?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 05:38:43 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:51:38 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Yes it is needed. Better do it quick before MMM paves Souky over for his mew interstates.
How did you know I was a cat lover?
I realized that the sound of a crying child gives me feelings of rage rather than genuine concern, and that's probably bad, so no, I will not have children in the future. I would also need somebody to have them with, which is a rather large hurdle.
I also feel like I'd pass on a lot of generational trauma and baggage that should really just be capped with me. I also have a lot of other issues internally, between the funny autism, a lot of anxiety, the gender transient response, issues with sexuality... I don't exactly consider myself to be a solid foundation upon which I should build a little Hobart upon! I can barely hold myself together! To top this all off, I'm still not entirely convinced that I'm not the last generation before the human race goes extinct.
Plus lowkey, all of my hobbies are really expensive and time consuming. Collecting brass instruments isn't cheap, fursuits aren't cheap, and the cost of everything is going up. I don't think it is a good personal choice for me to spend thousands of dollars to have less free time and more responsibilities.
It's funny how attitudes change. I felt more irritation than concern about crying babies, but when I had my own I felt more concern, not only about my baby but about crying babies in general. And I still do, even though my child is long past the crying stage.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Of course you would risk someone's else financial future at the expense of your own. Talk about selfish. Maybe we need helicopters with grappling hooks to yank the uninsured cars off the roads.
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 08:17:13 PM
It's funny how attitudes change. I felt more irritation than concern about crying babies, but when I had my own I felt more concern, not only about my baby but about crying babies in general. And I still do, even though my child is long past the crying stage.
100%. If there weren't so many creepy people out there, I'd happily be the guy that tried to help a stranger's kiddo when they're crying on a plane. Before I would have just thrown on my noise cancelling headphones.
Quote from: SectorZ on February 25, 2023, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Of course you would risk someone's else financial future at the expense of your own. Talk about selfish. Maybe we need helicopters with grappling hooks to yank the uninsured cars off the roads.
Well if they actually made prices reasonable people wouldn't have selfish attitudes like that. I am insured. My parents pay my car insurance in full every 6 months.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 08:52:40 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 25, 2023, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Of course you would risk someone's else financial future at the expense of your own. Talk about selfish. Maybe we need helicopters with grappling hooks to yank the uninsured cars off the roads.
Well if they actually made prices reasonable people wouldn't have selfish attitudes like that. I am insured. My parents pay my car insurance in full every 6 months.
Must be nice being kept man.
I dunno, I feel like my car insurance rates are reasonable.
The health insurance people can go suck an egg.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 25, 2023, 09:01:32 PM
I dunno, I feel like my car insurance rates are reasonable.
The health insurance people can go suck an egg.
Agreed. Full coverage with full glass replacement on my relatively expensive car is only $55 a month. My health insurance between my son and myself, despite neither of us ever having medical issues, costs $200 a month and that's a pretty good price compared to a lot of what others pay.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 09:16:03 PM
It's like $800-900 for one car and $500-600 for the other car. The increased rate on one of the cars is probably because I'm in the <25 age bracket, even though both cars are registered in my dad's name, all they have to do is see one driver in that age group on the plan and hike the rates on either car. When does that increased rate end btw? At 25, 27, 28? I can't imagine what it is for families with 2-3 teens and multiple cars.
Sounds like you better get a job.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 09:24:16 PM
Even when I have a job, no way am I paying that ageist amount out of MY paycheck lol. Monthly interest on my savings account can completely cover my gas for joyriding if I reduce it a bit. And if we couldn't afford it I would just switch myself to the bare minimum insurance possible that's just enough to be legal.
Must be nice being a kept man.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 09:24:16 PM
Even when I have a job, no way am I paying that ageist amount out of MY paycheck lol. Monthly interest on my savings account can completely cover my gas for joyriding if I reduce it a bit. And if we couldn't afford it I would just switch myself to the bare minimum insurance possible that's just enough to be legal.
It ain't ageism homey. It's called underwriting and your demographic is the most likely to fuck up their car, hence you pay more.
Sounds like a money grabbing excuse to me. Aside from it being unconstitutional to punish an entire group of people for the actions of a few, there's no way my age group is as more dangerous than other drivers proportional to the rate increases. I have a perfect driving record, who uses a 5 second rule on the highway, so what exactly am I paying for? Men also may pay more but that is because they drive more miles. The per mile accident rate is actually slightly higher for women.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 09:58:19 PM
Sounds like a money grabbing excuse to me. Aside from it being unconstitutional to punish an entire group of people for the actions of a few, there's no way my age group is as more dangerous than other drivers proportional to the rate increases. I have a perfect driving record, who uses a 5 second rule on the highway, so what exactly am I paying for? Men also may pay more but that is because they drive more miles. The per mile accident rate is actually slightly higher for women.
Congratulations, this is a big milestone in your life - for you have just learned the ultimate life lesson, called "Life Ain't Fair".
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 09:58:19 PM
Sounds like a money grabbing excuse to me. Aside from it being unconstitutional to punish an entire group of people for the actions of a few, there's no way my age group is as more dangerous than other drivers proportional to the rate increases. I have a perfect driving record, who uses a 5 second rule on the highway, so what exactly am I paying for? Men also may pay more but that is because they drive more miles. The per mile accident rate is actually slightly higher for women.
You'd be a terrible insurance company CEO. Young men are way more likely to get in serious car accidents. Your demographic has a feeling of invincibility, and your posting history leads me to believe you're not an exception. Your demographic speeds more, drinks and drives more, has more road rage, etc. And because nothing ever happens to them, because of pure probability, they continue to do it. There's a chance you're a statistical anomaly to your demographic, but again, based on things you've posted, I doubt it.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 10:06:43 PM
Well again thankfully "I" am not the one paying for it, but it is still disgusting. It's also a fact that older drivers are more likely to be in a crash that results in death.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 10:13:52 PM
I have no such feelings of, and I don't drink. Do my 67 mph speed limits w/speed cameras on cross country US Routes posts really give off those vibes? Oh, And my perfect driving record isn't a feeling, it's a fact. My traffic ticket rate is currently 0 per 8 years and an accident rate of 0 per 119,450 miles.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 10:13:52 PM
I have no such feelings of, and I don't drink. Do my 67 mph speed limits w/speed cameras on cross country US Routes posts really give off those vibes? Oh, And my perfect driving record isn't a feeling, it's a fact. My traffic ticket rate is currently 0 per 8 years and an accident rate of 0 per 119,450 miles.
Again, the plural of anecdote is not data. You've talked about hypermiling and whatnot, which means aggressive acceleration, which is not a safe driving practice. And bluntly, your posting style of thinking you know absolutely everything and no one that actually has more experience than yourself has an opinion worth considering means that you are squarely in my "I can do no wrong" demographic. I only judge you because I used to be there as well around your age. But you'd be wise to at least have the slightest inclination that you are "acting your age" and that's what insurance companies care about -- it's about probabilities.
Also...
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 09:06:26 PM
What's the worst offense that you got pulled over for but didn't get a ticket? My worst warning for a moving violation was last year for driving 73 mph on the Belt Parkway In Queens, New York City. The cop was driving on the road near me in an unmarked car but didn't flip the lights on until I crossed 70 mph. No ticket! Thanks to that I still have a perfect driving record free of moving violations.
How did this thread go from talking about kids and families to car insurance? Stop derailing threads MMM, if you want to talk about car insurance do it somewhere else.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 10:26:03 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 10:25:20 PM
Hypermiling is gradual acceleration. Rapid acceleration burns more gas. Online behavior isn't indicative of personality. Most people express their alter ego online. Much healthier to vent online than in real life situations. And what posts indicate "I can do no wrong"? What do my fictional highway plans have to do with my driving ability? I rarely brag about my perfect driving record, if I even mentioned it at all before now. It's not that impressive until you hit 10+ years ticket free. Do people really think that the 3% of the brain that isn't finished developing between 23 and 25 has such an an effect on behavior? In fact, I think I drive slightly faster now than when I was 18-19.
Did you not read my comment?
At least he posted about possibly never having bragged about his clean driving record right after I quoted him bragging about his perfect driving record. :)
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 09:58:19 PM
Sounds like a money grabbing excuse to me. Aside from it being unconstitutional to punish an entire group of people for the actions of a few
Wait, wait, wait. Back up. Under what clause?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 08:52:40 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 25, 2023, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Agreed. Personally, I would rather drive without car insurance than live without health insurance.
Of course you would risk someone's else financial future at the expense of your own. Talk about selfish. Maybe we need helicopters with grappling hooks to yank the uninsured cars off the roads.
Well if they actually made prices reasonable people wouldn't have selfish attitudes like that. I am insured. My parents pay my car insurance in full every 6 months.
"They"? Who is "They" who can magically repeal the law of supply and demand? Wars block the oil supply, and increase oil consumption, ta da! Prices go up.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 25, 2023, 09:58:19 PM
Sounds like a money grabbing excuse to me. Aside from it being unconstitutional to punish an entire group of people for the actions of a few, there's no way my age group is as more dangerous than other drivers proportional to the rate increases. I have a perfect driving record, who uses a 5 second rule on the highway, so what exactly am I paying for? Men also may pay more but that is because they drive more miles. The per mile accident rate is actually slightly higher for women.
Putting people in risk groups for various kinds of insurance has been established practice for decades, maybe centuries. I pay less for car insurance than you probably do, but more for health insurance. C'est la vie.