Interstate 269

[Wayward Memphian]

We are into hypotheticals and some hate those a reroute of I-55 needs to happen at about Jericho is and run to near the Intermodal/Supersite near Lehi.

Arkansas 'could'  build the bridge and cross the Mississippi without leaving the state as a toll bridge without taking in to account any engineering aspects but it is the narrowest part of the river around. It would run over what was the gun club aspect of the former MGM Grand Casino

Yes, the space to do it is there. Probably a good place to build a bridge.    That said, Arkansas has a constitutional ban on toll roads and bridges.  The only way it gets built with tolls is if the tolls are collected in Mississippi or if it is a privately owned bridge.

As with anything in Arkansas, it is one vote away from being law when it comes to Amendments. Sell a Toll Bridge as a way to not get shot on I-240 in Memphis going to Pigeon Forge or the Redneck Riviera on vacation and it passes easily.

As for Buck'ees Wes Memphis along side the Casino and Alma Arkansas are no brainers.

[Bobby5280]

It's looks like there is quite a bit of open land on the West side of Southland Casino for a Buc-ee's location. The only bad thing about that spot is the two slip-style off ramps onto the frontage road are pretty early into the I-40/I-55 overlap. The last slip ramp is in front of the Southland Casino property. Then there are two on-ramps for the WB/NB I-40/I-55 main lanes. The off-ramp and on-ramp configuration would underscore the need for Buc-ee's to install a pretty substantial high rise sign. Probably something like the order of this Buc-ee's sign at TX-114/I-35W, but maybe even taller:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0245074,-97.2770506,3a,75y,187.41h,98.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smpUbirNAWJxErmYpgjNDDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

There is also a good bit of open land along the South side of I-40/I-55 just East of the AR-77/Missouri St exit.

Alma, AR is more tricky. There is no exit to surface streets along I-40 between the current I-49 terminus and I-540. Not much develop-able land is available either. The first exit East of the I-49/I-40 interchange would be an optimal spot for a Buc-ee's, but all the land there is gobbled up by a mix of commercial businesses and homes. So they would be stuck having to build farther East on I-40. Or just choose another location in Arkansas. If it was my call I'd probably rather build farther North on I-49 somewhere between Springdale and Rogers.

[MikieTimT]

It's looks like there is quite a bit of open land on the West side of Southland Casino for a Buc-ee's location. The only bad thing about that spot is the two slip-style off ramps onto the frontage road are pretty early into the I-40/I-55 overlap. The last slip ramp is in front of the Southland Casino property. Then there are two on-ramps for the WB/NB I-40/I-55 main lanes. The off-ramp and on-ramp configuration would underscore the need for Buc-ee's to install a pretty substantial high rise sign. Probably something like the order of this Buc-ee's sign at TX-114/I-35W, but maybe even taller:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0245074,-97.2770506,3a,75y,187.41h,98.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smpUbirNAWJxErmYpgjNDDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

There is also a good bit of open land along the South side of I-40/I-55 just East of the AR-77/Missouri St exit.

Alma, AR is more tricky. There is no exit to surface streets along I-40 between the current I-49 terminus and I-540. Not much develop-able land is available either. The first exit East of the I-49/I-40 interchange would be an optimal spot for a Buc-ee's, but all the land there is gobbled up by a mix of commercial businesses and homes. So they would be stuck having to build farther East on I-40. Or just choose another location in Arkansas. If it was my call I'd probably rather build farther North on I-49 somewhere between Springdale and Rogers.

Exits 58, 60, 69, 70 and 81 on I-49 in NWA are really the only exits until you get to the Bella Vista Bypass that something the size of a Buc-ee's could be built without getting further from the expressway than they want to be with the lack of access roads that NWA has outside of Fayetteville.  It would do fantastically up this way, but West Memphis would probably be a better bet to be built with 2 Interstates together with actual access roads before anything up here ever does.

Are there any actual plans to expand I-269 any further, or are we all just dreaming at this point?  I agree that an I-269 outer loop into Arkansas makes good sense, but until the 3 states come up with some sort of exploratory commission to push the feds to come up with the necessary congressional attention, I think it's dead in the water unless some sort of catastrophe mobilizes attention on the area.

[Bobby5280]

As far as I can tell there are no official plans for extending I-269 across the Mississippi River from either end in Millington, TN or Tunica, MS. But I-269 would be immensely more valuable to the Interstate system in that region if it was a complete outer loop.

Thru traffic on I-40 wouldn't have to drive very far out of the way using a complete I-269 outer loop by way of Millington since I-40 crosses I-269 near its Northeast corner. I-40 takes a pretty substantial angle in Memphis. The highway is running East-West in Arkansas but takes a more diagonal route getting into Tennessee.

I've already mentioned how Westbound I-40 traffic could use a complete I-269 outer loop as a shortcut to get to the resorts in Tunica or get more direct, 100% Interstate quality access to the I-22 corridor.

A complete I-269 outer loop would very likely spur a lot of commercial and residential development around Millington, Arlington and even Tunica. Add in an eventual I-69 corridor and the value of a full I-269 loop would increase further. The two very expensive Mississippi River bridges needed for a complete I-269 loop would probably pay themselves many times over via the regional economic benefit. But to get the job done and get three states onto the same page it will require heavy federal involvement (and LOTS of federal funding).

[bwana39]

I don't see any realistic way toward two bridges in the Memphis area. Frankly, I see one new bridge maximum on the lower Mississippi until you get to the in-state Louisiana parts of the river.

SO if Memphis gets any bridge it will have to be the I-69 bridge. I see a federal priority for the I-69 corridor and Tennessee having zero priority for anything else in Western Tennessee.

While lots of people see a huge need for two new bridges in metro Memphis, I just do not see it happening in the next thirty years.  If the feds would prioritize the I-69 corridor and make it palatable to cross the White and Arkansas rivers, a new crossing south of Memphis is the better choice for the national highway grid. A less expensive choice for Mississippi. and realistically a more useful route for Arkansans outside Desha and Arkansas Counties.

[Wayward Memphian]

I thought I had posted this but guess I didn't.

I have theorized about this elsewhere and there is zero chance it happens and it involves a new Southern Memphis Bridge.

When Disney bought Marvel, Universal Studios Florida rights to certain Marvel properties were Grandfathered in. Disney in essence was forbidden to use those properties for rides east of the Mississippi River. Outside of Gardians of the Galaxy under development in Epcot(which Disney brought to life from Marvel Obscurity. This has held true.

I theorized(years ago) that Ark, Tenn and Miss. Combine forces to court a Disney Theme Park based on Marvel. A new Southern Bridge at Tunica was the key.. Placing the Theme Park in Ark gets past the east of the Mississippi rule.

Like outside of sleepy Orlando in the late 60s, there's tons of undeveloped land on the Arkansas side for a park.

When I first was yammering about this. Harrah's had just closed and there was a great golf course and two big old hotels sitting vacant. I summized Disney should buy it up and even add timeshares to it. Mississippi had put some effort into a landing on the River. That would be where Disney would expand their successful Ocean cruises into River Cruising. I know, how Walt and Steamboat Willy would that be right?

The Memphis angle would be additional stops by the River boats either right after the boats left Tunica or the night before they docked at Tunica on routes up and down the rive, one ways and r/ts. MEM would also benefit from the increased air traffic. It just so happens that Disney Ocean cruise is now using New Orleans as a port. Talk about add ons each way and pre covid there was a boom in river cruising.

I also theorized that Disney could build the theme park it wanted outside of DC with a highly American to it. That would seem out of the question now. But... it could always build a second park in time.

The bridge would make it all feasible, add a light rail aspect to connect the resort and port area on the Miss side with the park and possible resort areas on the Arkansas side. Maybe even extend the light rail to MEM.

They could have also pitched incentives to locate filming and production there much like what you have seen done in ATL.

With so  many of Disney attractions being enclosed, weather and year aroundness should not be an issue. See Paris and Tokyo.

Sounded great in my head, still does.

[Tomahawkin]

That last Post was on point! I totally agree, IMO, other than Fed Ex Expansion and the Casinos (which many lost revenue because of Covid) That area is in need of any additional financial revenue and businesses. I didn't even think about the entertainment/film industry. GA gives tax writeoffs and other incentives to film industries who relocate to GA

[Bobby5280]

I like the idea of a strictly Marvel-themed amusement resort. It could be somewhat more grown-up place for bigger kids and adults. We're talking bigger, faster, more scary thrill rides that can give the industry leading roller coasters at Cedar Point some real competition. Combine that with the extra levels of detail Disney tends to apply to attractions at Disneyland and Disney World. Such a park could be a big hit. It might be tricky building state of the art roller coaster structures on soft low lands new the Mississippi River, but not impossible.

One potential knock against such a park: year 'round weather. That's one of the major reasons why Disneyland is located in metro LA and Disney World is down in the middle of Florida. Both parks can operate much of the year or all year long since winter in both places is pretty mild. Most amusement parks elsewhere in the US are open only in warm weather months, which greatly reduces total potential revenue. The region around Memphis does get cold snaps during the winter and even snow storms. Summer weather is usually hot and really humid.

[ethanhopkin14]

I like the idea of a strictly Marvel-themed amusement resort. It could be somewhat more grown-up place for bigger kids and adults. We're talking bigger, faster, more scary thrill rides that can give the industry leading roller coasters at Cedar Point some real competition. Combine that with the extra levels of detail Disney tends to apply to attractions at Disneyland and Disney World. Such a park could be a big hit. It might be tricky building state of the art roller coaster structures on soft low lands new the Mississippi River, but not impossible.

One potential knock against such a park: year 'round weather. That's one of the major reasons why Disneyland is located in metro LA and Disney World is down in the middle of Florida. Both parks can operate much of the year or all year long since winter in both places is pretty mild. Most amusement parks elsewhere in the US are open only in warm weather months, which greatly reduces total potential revenue. The region around Memphis does get cold snaps during the winter and even snow storms. Summer weather is usually hot and really humid.

This whole conversation reminds me of when Austin was approached to be the site of another Disneyland in the 80s, because it was halfway between the existing two. Typical to Austin, they turned it down because it would create jobs, be too good for the economy and too much fun.  Sigh

[bwana39]

That last Post was on point! I totally agree, IMO, other than Fed Ex Expansion and the Casinos (which many lost revenue because of Covid) That area is in need of any additional financial revenue and businesses. I didn't even think about the entertainment/film industry. GA gives tax writeoffs and other incentives to film industries who relocate to GA

The increased accessibility would help the Mississippi casinos.  The land based casino in West Memphis has surely put a damper on the more remote facilities in Tunica County. The access from Arkansas would help balance the playing field.

[Wayward Memphian]

I like the idea of a strictly Marvel-themed amusement resort. It could be somewhat more grown-up place for bigger kids and adults. We're talking bigger, faster, more scary thrill rides that can give the industry leading roller coasters at Cedar Point some real competition. Combine that with the extra levels of detail Disney tends to apply to attractions at Disneyland and Disney World. Such a park could be a big hit. It might be tricky building state of the art roller coaster structures on soft low lands new the Mississippi River, but not impossible.

One potential knock against such a park: year 'round weather. That's one of the major reasons why Disneyland is located in metro LA and Disney World is down in the middle of Florida. Both parks can operate much of the year or all year long since winter in both places is pretty mild. Most amusement parks elsewhere in the US are open only in warm weather months, which greatly reduces total potential revenue. The region around Memphis does get cold snaps during the winter and even snow storms. Summer weather is usually hot and really humid.

They are all over the sinkhole state.

Orlando is hot humid snd wet in the summer, I would say more so.

It snows at Disneyland Paris and Tokyo, They are year round parks. Disney overcomes this. Other parks are overcoming this as well. They have discovered gold in the seasons of Fall and Christmas. I give you Silver Dollar City. Christmas is their busiest time of the year. They have extended it to New Years.  They open up in mid March after a 2 months shut down. Six Flags are going most of the year now. San Antonio has gone year round.

Like I said Disney builds an enormous amount of enclosed rides vs. exposured rides.

Phantasialand in Germany has made their Wintertrum thing a huge success along with integrating lodging into the park itself. See Europe Park as well.

[Wayward Memphian]

That last Post was on point! I totally agree, IMO, other than Fed Ex Expansion and the Casinos (which many lost revenue because of Covid) That area is in need of any additional financial revenue and businesses. I didn't even think about the entertainment/film industry. GA gives tax writeoffs and other incentives to film industries who relocate to GA

The increased accessibility would help the Mississippi casinos.  The land based casino in West Memphis has surely put a damper on the more remote facilities in Tunica County. The access from Arkansas would help balance the playing field.

What is forgotten is that this idea of a Southern bridge would connect to I 40 very near the former Nascar Track near Lehi. The banking is still visible today it had two long straighways with tight corners. Owner refused to pave it and lost the race. Easily discernable on Google Earth.

But back to Disney, seasons mean nothing to them now.

[msunat97]

That last Post was on point! I totally agree, IMO, other than Fed Ex Expansion and the Casinos (which many lost revenue because of Covid) That area is in need of any additional financial revenue and businesses. I didn't even think about the entertainment/film industry. GA gives tax writeoffs and other incentives to film industries who relocate to GA

The increased accessibility would help the Mississippi casinos.  The land based casino in West Memphis has surely put a damper on the more remote facilities in Tunica County. The access from Arkansas would help balance the playing field.

What is forgotten is that this idea of a Southern bridge would connect to I 40 very near the former Nascar Track near Lehi. The banking is still visible today it had two long straighways with tight corners. Owner refused to pave it and lost the race. Easily discernable on Google Earth.

But back to Disney, seasons mean nothing to them now.

I never knew that racetrack was there.  It would be nice to be able to skip around Memphis on I-40 avoid the traffic congestion.  Too bad it'll never happen

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^^^
Greater Memphis has the ill fortune to be located in the corner of a state that would rather pretend it's not terribly important (or even there!), adjacent to a state that perennially has no money, and across the river from a state juggling several dozen projects that receive higher priority.  For a project such as an Interstate-grade high-clearance bridge that requires everyone's ducks to be in a row, the prospects are dim without a sizeable injection of federal funding.  Maybe someone with a bit of pull from the area can mention the need for an additional bridge (or even nag a bit about it) when Buttigieg and associates are cobbling up their initial infrastructure package.  Odds are it won't happen without that sort of assistance.   

[Wayward Memphian]

That last Post was on point! I totally agree, IMO, other than Fed Ex Expansion and the Casinos (which many lost revenue because of Covid) That area is in need of any additional financial revenue and businesses. I didn't even think about the entertainment/film industry. GA gives tax writeoffs and other incentives to film industries who relocate to GA

The increased accessibility would help the Mississippi casinos.  The land based casino in West Memphis has surely put a damper on the more remote facilities in Tunica County. The access from Arkansas would help balance the playing field.

What is forgotten is that this idea of a Southern bridge would connect to I 40 very near the former Nascar Track near Lehi. The banking is still visible today it had two long straighways with tight corners. Owner refused to pave it and lost the race. Easily discernable on Google Earth.

But back to Disney, seasons mean nothing to them now.

I never knew that racetrack was there.  It would be nice to be able to skip around Memphis on I-40 avoid the traffic congestion.  Too bad it'll never happen

It was unique and would still be today. It was basically two long drag races into high banked half oval  turns.

https://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/nascars-lost-dirt-superspeedway/

[capt.ron]

As far as I can tell there are no official plans for extending I-269 across the Mississippi River from either end in Millington, TN or Tunica, MS. But I-269 would be immensely more valuable to the Interstate system in that region if it was a complete outer loop.

Thru traffic on I-40 wouldn't have to drive very far out of the way using a complete I-269 outer loop by way of Millington since I-40 crosses I-269 near its Northeast corner. I-40 takes a pretty substantial angle in Memphis. The highway is running East-West in Arkansas but takes a more diagonal route getting into Tennessee.

I've already mentioned how Westbound I-40 traffic could use a complete I-269 outer loop as a shortcut to get to the resorts in Tunica or get more direct, 100% Interstate quality access to the I-22 corridor.

A complete I-269 outer loop would very likely spur a lot of commercial and residential development around Millington, Arlington and even Tunica. Add in an eventual I-69 corridor and the value of a full I-269 loop would increase further. The two very expensive Mississippi River bridges needed for a complete I-269 loop would probably pay themselves many times over via the regional economic benefit. But to get the job done and get three states onto the same page it will require heavy federal involvement (and LOTS of federal funding).

At the very least, I can see a southern / western extension of I-269 that runs from existing I-69 / MS 304 westward across the Mississippi River and then curve north towards I-40 right around where AR 149 connects at. I have a map drawn (which puts it into fictional territory) of my idea of an extension of I-269.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1O8WoruMjrY-N2QZRW4oqLE7SqlfRdlDh&usp=sharing

[armadillo speedbump]

Greater Memphis has the ill fortune to be located in the corner of a state that would rather pretend it's not terribly important (or even there!)

Strongly disagree.  Corrupt Memphis politics may always cry that to try and extort more money, but the metro has easily the best road and freeway network in TN.

[GreenLanternCorps]

Greater Memphis has the ill fortune to be located in the corner of a state that would rather pretend it's not terribly important (or even there!)

Strongly disagree.  Corrupt Memphis politics may always cry that to try and extort more money, but the metro has easily the best road and freeway network in TN.

Well except for the lack of bridges.  I will never figure out why a metro the size of Memphis only has two bridges across the Mississippi when St. Louis has eight and the Quad Cities have five.

[I-55]

Greater Memphis has the ill fortune to be located in the corner of a state that would rather pretend it's not terribly important (or even there!)

Strongly disagree.  Corrupt Memphis politics may always cry that to try and extort more money, but the metro has easily the best road and freeway network in TN.

Well except for the lack of bridges.  I will never figure out why a metro the size of Memphis only has two bridges across the Mississippi when St. Louis has eight and the Quad Cities have five.

The only argument I can think of is that there is a significant lack of development on the Arkansas side to build a bridge to, but spurring development very well may be an argument to build more bridges.

[armadillo speedbump]

Yes, only 50,000 of the Memphis metro's 1.35 million live on the AR side (less than 4%).  Though another bridge isn't likely to change that very much. 

And while a much larger percentage of St. Louis' population is on the IL side, it is also spread out a lot more, Columbia to western Alton is over 35 miles.  Further, the St. Louis CSA is almost 2.5 times as big as the Memphis CSA.

Quad Cities are smaller, but the river is not near as wide, they could build cheaper lower or swing bridges instead of high clearance, shorter spans, and the population is also pretty evenly split between both sides.

[MikeTheActuary]

Another consideration when comparing Memphis to St. Louis or the Quad Cities...look at how broad the river + floodplain is at Memphis vs either of those places.

[sparker]

Another consideration when comparing Memphis to St. Louis or the Quad Cities...look at how broad the river + floodplain is at Memphis vs either of those places.

True -- everything below the Ohio River confluence involves a floodplain minimally 2-3 miles across -- often up to 9-10; more if oxbows are present.  That's one of the logistical/engineering issues confronting the proposed I-69 Dean/Great River bridge -- and that's even a bit worse, with the Arkansas River's influx slightly north of the bridge location. 

[MikieTimT]

Another consideration when comparing Memphis to St. Louis or the Quad Cities...look at how broad the river + floodplain is at Memphis vs either of those places.

True -- everything below the Ohio River confluence involves a floodplain minimally 2-3 miles across -- often up to 9-10; more if oxbows are present.  That's one of the logistical/engineering issues confronting the proposed I-69 Dean/Great River bridge -- and that's even a bit worse, with the Arkansas River's influx slightly north of the bridge location.

There's an oxbow or two between Memphis and Greenville 

[Tomahawkin]

OT, man a Buc'ees would look good in all that undeveloped area in NW Mississippi between IH 55 and IH 22. Those gas stations bring plenty of jobs...

[sparker]

Another consideration when comparing Memphis to St. Louis or the Quad Cities...look at how broad the river + floodplain is at Memphis vs either of those places.

True -- everything below the Ohio River confluence involves a floodplain minimally 2-3 miles across -- often up to 9-10; more if oxbows are present.  That's one of the logistical/engineering issues confronting the proposed I-69 Dean/Great River bridge -- and that's even a bit worse, with the Arkansas River's influx slightly north of the bridge location.

There's an oxbow or two between Memphis and Greenville 

More like about 20!  Would have been more if the river hadn't straightlined itself through several of them (generally the ones where the state line follows the former oxbow, now an isolated lake, rather than the current main river channel).  A constant process; one sped up during major flood events (such as the "big one" of 1993).