Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[goobnav]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

[hotdogPi]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

[sprjus4]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Once I-87 is fully completed, it will take around the same time using either facility. It will be around 20 miles shorter taking US 58, but wouldn't save anymore time.

Currently, it's around 25 additional miles, however the proposed realignments of US 17 in North Carolina would shorten this distance by around 5 miles.

Plus, I-87 will not only provide an interstate-grade facility between the end-points, it will also link to the towns along the corridor, including Elizabeth City which is a growing city, and has military presence.

[sprjus4]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

Two different states. VDOT is unwilling as of now to do a buildout to I-95. That could change in the future, but as of right now, unlikely. An NC 11 / US 13 upgrade would cost significantly more due to the fact that either A) the entire corridor would have to be built on new alignment, or B) 30+ miles of continuous frontage roads.

The NC US 17 alignment already includes 3 interstate-grade bypasses, a good portion is limited-access, and the rest can be bypassed with about 18 miles of new location or upgrades of about 10 -15 miles of frontage roads. It would also link Elizabeth City to the interstate system, a growing city and one of the largest in northeastern NC. Also connections of NC 11 / US 13 into Virginia are complicated. About 10-15 miles of new freeway would be required (which is impossible in Virginia it seems). US 17 is already a fully limited-access 4-lane roadway in Virginia, and part of it 4-lane urban freeway linking to I-64.

No additional travel time would be added on traveling NC I-87 when completed as opposed to US 58. It's simply preference - are you willing to drive slightly more milage and have an interstate-grade drive at 70 MPH, no driveways, no stop lights, etc, or slow down to 60 MPH, and 45 - 35 MPH through developed areas near Suffolk and Emporia and go a 15-20 mile shorter route. Some would take the first option, others would take the second. It will open up options, where currently US 58 is the only efficient corridor.

Additionally, it's important to note this is for North Carolina's benefit to link Elizabeth City to both Norfolk and Raleigh via interstate-grade roadway, and a benefit for both provide an interstate-grade roadway south out of Hampton Roads, provide both areas with 2 mainline interstates, and grow the areas between. Interstates don't always take the shortest route possible, as in the case of NC 11 / US 13, they go a little further to serve towns and cities on the route.

[goobnav]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Then you would have to go down I-95 to US 64 to get to Raleigh?  Not seeing the point.  If you went US 58 to South Hill then I-85 to US 1, still not practical to Raleigh.

[sprjus4]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Then you would have to go down I-95 to US 64 to get to Raleigh?  Not seeing the point.  If you went US 58 to South Hill then I-85 to US 1, still not practical to Raleigh.

Taking US 64 to I-95 to US 58 is currently around 25 miles shorter than taking U.S. 17 today. When NC I-87 is completed, it will still be around 15-20 miles shorter (new alignments will shorten it from 25), but the exact same travel time due to 70 MPH speed limits. It's simply preference which way you go at that point - an interstate-grade facility at 70 MPH constant, or an at-grade highway varied between 60 MPH and 35 MPH.

[goobnav]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Then you would have to go down I-95 to US 64 to get to Raleigh?  Not seeing the point.  If you went US 58 to South Hill then I-85 to US 1, still not practical to Raleigh.

Taking US 64 to I-95 to US 58 is currently around 25 miles shorter than taking U.S. 17 today. When NC I-87 is completed, it will still be around 15-20 miles shorter (new alignments will shorten it from 25), but the exact same travel time due to 70 MPH speed limits. It's simply preference which way you go at that point - an interstate-grade facility at 70 MPH constant, or an at-grade highway varied between 60 MPH and 35 MPH.

Actually the bigger point will be the CSX inter-modal, or inland port that will be built in Rocky Mount.  Despite the less distance to US 58, the amount of traffic alone on 95 negates the practicality of such a route, plus that traffic relief is even more far off than I-87 getting built, 95 widening is starting in the south and rebuilding the Roanoke River bridges to larger facilities is going to be costly.  Also having a secondary or tertiary hurricane evacuation route for such a largely populated area is even more logical.

[Rothman]

Albany NY metro is 1.1 million population, Binghamton metro population is 250 thousand, and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton metro population is 560 thousand.  Albany is a state capital and therefore a government center for the state and for the various federal division offices, and also a college and university center.
The certainly deserve to be connected by a mainline Interstate highway, and I-88 provides northerly service via I-90 to I-87 to Canada, easterly service to I-90 to Boston; and I-88 provides southerly service to I-81 all the way south including Wilkes-Barre/Scranton and not very far to Harrisburg PA which is another state capital and therefore a government center for the state and for the various federal division offices, and also a college and university center; and I-81 connects to westerly I-80.

I've heard a whole lot of NYSDOT employees say I-88 was unnecessary.

I don't know why, as I just posted a brief explanation of how it fits into the Interstate system both regionally and nationally.

The old road NY-7 was nearly all 2 lanes and passing thru towns.  It wasn't like there was a 4-lane high speed road already there.

There was a lot of feeling that the traffic volume did not necessitate the entire interstate.

But, hey, if only you were there with your network explanation, you could have convinced them that because it fit into some spider web as you envisioned that the thing was necessary despite their misgivings regarding the actual demand.

[sprjus4]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Then you would have to go down I-95 to US 64 to get to Raleigh?  Not seeing the point.  If you went US 58 to South Hill then I-85 to US 1, still not practical to Raleigh.

Taking US 64 to I-95 to US 58 is currently around 25 miles shorter than taking U.S. 17 today. When NC I-87 is completed, it will still be around 15-20 miles shorter (new alignments will shorten it from 25), but the exact same travel time due to 70 MPH speed limits. It's simply preference which way you go at that point - an interstate-grade facility at 70 MPH constant, or an at-grade highway varied between 60 MPH and 35 MPH.

Actually the bigger point will be the CSX inter-modal, or inland port that will be built in Rocky Mount.  Despite the less distance to US 58, the amount of traffic alone on 95 negates the practicality of such a route, plus that traffic relief is even more far off than I-87 getting built, 95 widening is starting in the south and rebuilding the Roanoke River bridges to larger facilities is going to be costly.  Also having a secondary or tertiary hurricane evacuation route for such a largely populated area is even more logical.

Where exactly in Rocky Mount is that being planned? Do you have a link to something providing more information?

I do agree though that it's true I-87 will provide an alternate route, and traffic relief on I-95.

[vdeane]

Are those articles factoring in gains from immigration?

Yes, they do.

Also projected losses of Congressional seats per 2020 census in article below, IL loses a least 1, NY loses 2, NC gains 1 and VA no change:

https://www.brennancenter.org/potential-shifts-political-power-after-2020-census

Found the flaw: the articles are only looking at one year.  One of them even shows that each of the states listed as "shrinking" actually gained population over a 10 year period, it just didn't emphasize that point because it doesn't fit the narrative they want to tell.

Losing Congressional seats doesn't mean much because the House is capped at 435 members, so they represent a percent, not raw numbers.

[NE2]

Once I-87 is fully completed, it will take around the same time using either facility. It will be around 20 miles shorter taking US 58, but wouldn't save anymore time.

And if the improvements were made to a shorter route, you'd save even more time.

[Beltway]

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Once I-87 is fully completed, it will take around the same time using either facility. It will be around 20 miles shorter taking US 58, but wouldn't save anymore time.
Currently, it's around 25 additional miles, however the proposed realignments of US 17 in North Carolina would shorten this distance by around 5 miles.

No such proposed realignments would do that.  VI-87 would be 25 miles longer than the current route.

AGAIN, you are assuming that there will be no upgrades to US-58, when in fact 4 major projects are already in the pipeline, and there will be more in the future.

VI-87 will never be competitive with the current routing between Norfolk and I-95 South, and between Norfolk and Raleigh.  It is a Vanity Interstate Highway proposal (and hopefully it will remain a proposal).

Four fundamental issues that I have with this proposal, 1) fraudulent marketing about connecting Norfolk and Raleigh, 2) little else of significance east of I-95, 3) low traffic volumes, 4) already working well in the functional class of 4-lane high speed rural arterial highway, on a highway that could handle 50 to 80% more traffic and twice the truck percentages in the future.

[Beltway]

I've heard a whole lot of NYSDOT employees say I-88 was unnecessary.

I don't know why, as I just posted a brief explanation of how it fits into the Interstate system both regionally and nationally.
The old road NY-7 was nearly all 2 lanes and passing thru towns.  It wasn't like there was a 4-lane high speed road already there.

There was a lot of feeling that the traffic volume did not necessitate the entire interstate.
But, hey, if only you were there with your network explanation, you could have convinced them that because it fit into some spider web as you envisioned that the thing was necessary despite their misgivings regarding the actual demand.

Interesting how you speak for all these nameless NYSDOT employees...  Given that it was completed over 30 years ago and was authorized over 50 years ago, how many employees would there still be around to vocalize their opinion?

[hotdogPi]

I never realized that the US Virgin Islands route system and Hawaii's system use such similar numbering: 2-4 digits based on importance, and the first digit indicates which island.

However, there is no VI 87, unless Wikipedia's list is incomplete.

[sprjus4]

VI-87 will never be competitive with the current routing between Norfolk and I-95 South, and between Norfolk and Raleigh.  It is a Vanity Interstate Highway proposal (and hopefully it will remain a proposal).

Broken record. Anti-interstate rhetoric. The fact you say "it will never be competitive" is a stretch. But, keep telling yourself that, keep adding more numbers to make the highway look bad because it's not "Virginia".

You have your opinions, and I have mine. Can we just agree on that?

[goobnav]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Then you would have to go down I-95 to US 64 to get to Raleigh?  Not seeing the point.  If you went US 58 to South Hill then I-85 to US 1, still not practical to Raleigh.

Taking US 64 to I-95 to US 58 is currently around 25 miles shorter than taking U.S. 17 today. When NC I-87 is completed, it will still be around 15-20 miles shorter (new alignments will shorten it from 25), but the exact same travel time due to 70 MPH speed limits. It's simply preference which way you go at that point - an interstate-grade facility at 70 MPH constant, or an at-grade highway varied between 60 MPH and 35 MPH.

Actually the bigger point will be the CSX inter-modal, or inland port that will be built in Rocky Mount.  Despite the less distance to US 58, the amount of traffic alone on 95 negates the practicality of such a route, plus that traffic relief is even more far off than I-87 getting built, 95 widening is starting in the south and rebuilding the Roanoke River bridges to larger facilities is going to be costly.  Also having a secondary or tertiary hurricane evacuation route for such a largely populated area is even more logical.

Where exactly in Rocky Mount is that being planned? Do you have a link to something providing more information?

I do agree though that it's true I-87 will provide an alternate route, and traffic relief on I-95.

Here you go:

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/News/2018/06/28/CSX-renews-plans-for-new-terminal.html

[sprjus4]

It's like supporters are unable to read a map and see that an upgrade of US 58 or NC 11/US 13 would be significantly shorter than I-87.

But what is it connecting?

I-95 to US 58 is a faster way to get between I-87's endpoints, even after I-87 is fully built.

Then you would have to go down I-95 to US 64 to get to Raleigh?  Not seeing the point.  If you went US 58 to South Hill then I-85 to US 1, still not practical to Raleigh.

Taking US 64 to I-95 to US 58 is currently around 25 miles shorter than taking U.S. 17 today. When NC I-87 is completed, it will still be around 15-20 miles shorter (new alignments will shorten it from 25), but the exact same travel time due to 70 MPH speed limits. It's simply preference which way you go at that point - an interstate-grade facility at 70 MPH constant, or an at-grade highway varied between 60 MPH and 35 MPH.

Actually the bigger point will be the CSX inter-modal, or inland port that will be built in Rocky Mount.  Despite the less distance to US 58, the amount of traffic alone on 95 negates the practicality of such a route, plus that traffic relief is even more far off than I-87 getting built, 95 widening is starting in the south and rebuilding the Roanoke River bridges to larger facilities is going to be costly.  Also having a secondary or tertiary hurricane evacuation route for such a largely populated area is even more logical.

Where exactly in Rocky Mount is that being planned? Do you have a link to something providing more information?

I do agree though that it's true I-87 will provide an alternate route, and traffic relief on I-95.

Here you go:

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/News/2018/06/28/CSX-renews-plans-for-new-terminal.html

Sort of sandwiched in between I-95 and Future I-87. Should be good for both routes, a perfect location IMO.

[sprjus4]

Once I-87 is fully completed, it will take around the same time using either facility. It will be around 20 miles shorter taking US 58, but wouldn't save anymore time.

And if the improvements were made to a shorter route, you'd save even more time.

For the umpteenth time, two different states. NCDOT wants to build this highway, VDOT currently has no proposals or concepts for an interstate to I-95. This is the best and cheapest routing NCDOT can build it on.

[goobnav]

Correct, these are all opinions, unless anyone here is a Federal legislator, no direct result will come of either conclusion.  Spirited arguments are good for the soul.

Those that disrespect the honor of a good argument with pointless vulgarity should align themselves with the judgemental ignorant.

Vanity or not I-87 has already started to be signed and further legitimized. 

[sprjus4]

Correct, these are all opinions, unless anyone here is a Federal legislator, no direct result will come of either conclusion.  Spirited arguments are good for the soul.

Those that disrespect the honor of a good argument with pointless vulgarity should align themselves with the judgemental ignorant.

Vanity or not I-87 has already started to be signed and further legitimized.

As far as I'm aware, interstates were purposely done to not run a direct routing, but rather to serve the towns along the way. There's rhetoric like this interstate is 50 miles longer, never to be used. They will both take around the same time, and many prefer an interstate over a surface road. But apparently, those are called vanity interstates. The ones which strictly run the most direct routing are the real interstates.

It's not vanity. It's going to get progressed in the next 10-15 years. I'm curious to see how close the US 58 freeway will be to I-95 at that point. Close to funding  I'm not against the concept, but let's be real - Virginia is never going to build a connector, especially with interests leaning toward I-87 where they can have interstate access to the south without having to spend the billions required to get it. The Port of Virginia and businesses in the area have expressed interest in it. Chesapeake has heavy interest, and HRTPO has signed a support resolution of an interstate corridor along US 17 / US 64 to Raleigh / I-95 a few years back.

Vanity...

[goobnav]

Correct, these are all opinions, unless anyone here is a Federal legislator, no direct result will come of either conclusion.  Spirited arguments are good for the soul.

Those that disrespect the honor of a good argument with pointless vulgarity should align themselves with the judgemental ignorant.

Vanity or not I-87 has already started to be signed and further legitimized.

As far as I'm aware, interstates were purposely done to not run a direct routing, but rather to serve the towns along the way. There's rhetoric like this interstate is 50 miles longer, never to be used. They will both take around the same time, and many prefer an interstate over a surface road. But apparently, those are called vanity interstates. The ones which strictly run the most direct routing are the real interstates.

It's not vanity. It's going to get progressed in the next 10-15 years. I'm curious to see how close the US 58 freeway will be to I-95 at that point. Close to funding  I'm not against the concept, but let's be real - Virginia is never going to build a connector, especially with interests leaning toward I-87 where they can have interstate access to the south without having to spend the billions required to get it. The Port of Virginia and businesses in the area have expressed interest in it. Chesapeake has heavy interest, and HRTPO has signed a support resolution of an interstate corridor along US 17 / US 64 to Raleigh / I-95 a few years back.

Vanity...

Yeah that was the so-called I-101 concept to go from Wilmington, DE to Raleigh, NC.  Due to I-99, being taken already.

[hotdogPi]

If NC I-87 had a more reasonable number (even and not a duplicate), it wouldn't get as much hate.

[sprjus4]

Correct, these are all opinions, unless anyone here is a Federal legislator, no direct result will come of either conclusion.  Spirited arguments are good for the soul.

Those that disrespect the honor of a good argument with pointless vulgarity should align themselves with the judgemental ignorant.

Vanity or not I-87 has already started to be signed and further legitimized.

As far as I'm aware, interstates were purposely done to not run a direct routing, but rather to serve the towns along the way. There's rhetoric like this interstate is 50 miles longer, never to be used. They will both take around the same time, and many prefer an interstate over a surface road. But apparently, those are called vanity interstates. The ones which strictly run the most direct routing are the real interstates.

It's not vanity. It's going to get progressed in the next 10-15 years. I'm curious to see how close the US 58 freeway will be to I-95 at that point. Close to funding  I'm not against the concept, but let's be real - Virginia is never going to build a connector, especially with interests leaning toward I-87 where they can have interstate access to the south without having to spend the billions required to get it. The Port of Virginia and businesses in the area have expressed interest in it. Chesapeake has heavy interest, and HRTPO has signed a support resolution of an interstate corridor along US 17 / US 64 to Raleigh / I-95 a few years back.

Vanity...

Yeah that was the so-called I-101 concept to go from Wilmington, DE to Raleigh, NC.  Due to I-99, being taken already.

No, the resolution they signed was for the Norfolk to Raleigh highway, originally pitched as "I-44".

https://www.hrtpo.org/uploads/docs/112014TPO-Resolution%207B-HRTPO%20Board%20Resolution%202014-07.pdf
https://www.hrtpo.org/uploads/docs/P18-Hampton_Roads_to_Raleigh_Corridor_Future_Interstate_Designation.pdf
https://www.hrtpo.org/uploads/docs/110514TTAC-Handout-New%20Business-HR%20to%20Raleigh%20Corridor.pdf

[NE2]

If NC I-87 had a more reasonable number (even and not a duplicate), it wouldn't get as much hate.

False. If it had a more reasonable route, it wouldn't get as much facepalm.

[sprjus4]

If NC I-87 had a more reasonable number (even and not a duplicate), it wouldn't get as much hate.

The people truly against it - they would still be against it if it was called an even, not a duplicate number. I really don't see a reason to be against it - it's not destroying the existing corridor. It will indeed connect Hampton Roads with Raleigh no matter how much you argue it, and people will chose to use it. The other option (US 58) will always be there for those who really don't like it.

False. If it had a more reasonable route, it wouldn't get as much facepalm.

Name a more reasonable that NCDOT could construct that would have the same cost as this routing, and already has much of it freeway-grade or limited-access.