Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[plain]

IF Virginia decides to build I-87 and route it over Dominion Blvd, would the bridge still be tolled?

Speaking of Dominion, I see Street View is now updated the whole length. I just want to say much of the signage there SUCKS.

[goobnav]

I was talking to my boss, a longtime resident of Raleigh, about all the road work done around there over the years. He said no one understands why they keep changing the highway numbers every 10 years or so. Up until recently, BGSs on I-40 were confusing and inconsistent due to all the number shuffling. Route shields would be removed from one sign and just slapped up on another wherever they fit. I-440 was still sparsely signed along 40 even though it technically wasn't. US 64 shields could still be found along Western Blvd since it has been removed, added back, and re-removed. Despite becoming I-495 and now I-87, locals still call it "64"  or the Knightdale bypass. Its also a running joke that this strange new I-87 doesn't go anywhere.

Funny thing is that all the locals don't get confused, only the non-conforming Yankees that moved here in the past 40 years and intolerant Southerners who see all that are not native as carpetbaggers.  Neither are in the majority but, they are made to be by outside influences to counter the decline of the old guard.

The conforming Yankees see it as growth and tolerate it quite well as it reassures them they made a good choice in moving to a continually growing area that is not a decaying hulk of a formally industrial area of the country.  Yes, can say this as I am originally from NE PA and that area is not improving with age at all neither is the majority of country above the South and East of the Mississippi.

Whether or not you like or don't like that I-87 is here is a moot point as it is approved and on the books, if it gets built to completion is subject to so much political BS that there is no way to truly predict it but, the plans are in motion.  It is still way more tolerable than that joke of I-99 in Central PA.

[wdcrft63]

I was talking to my boss, a longtime resident of Raleigh, about all the road work done around there over the years. He said no one understands why they keep changing the highway numbers every 10 years or so. Up until recently, BGSs on I-40 were confusing and inconsistent due to all the number shuffling. Route shields would be removed from one sign and just slapped up on another wherever they fit. I-440 was still sparsely signed along 40 even though it technically wasn't. US 64 shields could still be found along Western Blvd since it has been removed, added back, and re-removed. Despite becoming I-495 and now I-87, locals still call it "64"  or the Knightdale bypass. Its also a running joke that this strange new I-87 doesn't go anywhere.

I'm sure a lot of Raleigh area residents will agree with this. US 64, 70, and 401 were put on the beltway, and then 70 and 401 came back into town. I-440 went through its "Inner/Outer" phase and then became East/West even though a lot of it runs more north-south. And then we had the I-495 experiment. I think (hope?) things are stable now and these confusions will gradually recede into the past.

[Mapmikey]

Be thankful they also didn't sign the Raleigh Beltline as I40 Business which it was briefly designated prior to I440 being signed...

[sprjus4]

Not "slightly indirect", but enough so that it cannot/willnot be considered a connector between Raleigh and Norfolk (sorry roadgeeks).

3 minutes slower than US-58, 15-20 additional miles. Already refuted and proven numerous times.

I'm sure many would prefer a 70 mph interstate highway over US-58, myself included, and many locals and friends I know in the area.

People don't stick with arterials just because they're the shortest route mileage wise. Not everyone is driving a semi truck. An interstate is preferred for convenience, and is more traditional and standardized over an arterial highway.

You act like the highway is 50 additional miles, and will be 35 minutes slower when a uniform 70 mph speed limit is posted. You claim it will be way longer time wise, but show no proof.

Until US-58 is upgraded to interstate standards, there will likely be a half-half split between US-58 and I-87 when it's completed, half-half split between people who must take the shortest route and no issues with arterial highways, and the people who would prefer to stick with 70 mph interstate highways and will drive 75-80 mph all the way, and would chose I-87 for a convenience factor. I know people personally who hate US-58, that's not a lie, mostly because of the slower speed limit.

Just face it, an interstate connection is desired by the average person, and for someone who has no issues driving arterial highways and sticking with the shortest distance people, it's easy for you to say you won't use it - but to claim nobody will use it is a stretch, based on personal opinion. Most people aren't mileage strict, and don't mind driving additional mileage just to stick with 70 mph interstate highways. Most people between Hampton Roads and the west would take I-64 to I-81, whereas someone mileage strict would use US-460. People don't mind driving the additional 40 or so miles just to stay on interstate highways, and when you factor in 75-80 mph driving speeds that most people would drive at, it becomes faster overall. People also would consider that between I-87 and US-58, along with the other factors (arterial vs interstate, stop lights vs no stop lights, consistent 70 mph speed over variable 45 - 60 mph, etc). It's not just because I-87 is 15-20 additional miles, and 3 minutes slower obeying the speed limits, nobody will ever use it. I easily see a half-half split.

[sprjus4]

IF Virginia decides to build I-87 and route it over Dominion Blvd, would the bridge still be tolled?

Traditionally, yes, but the HRTAC and HRTPO are currently looking to buy out tolls on the tunnels, and may well in the future evaluate buying out the tolls on Dominion / Potential I-87, and maybe even the Chesapeake Expressway, when funding permits in 10-20 years.

Speaking of Dominion, I see Street View is now updated the whole length. I just want to say much of the signage there SUCKS.

Preaching to the choir. The city did good, standardized interstate signage along the Expressway, but someone was smoking something when they designed the signage for Dominion. It's god awful, hopefully if I-87 ever comes up this way, it will be replaced with standard VDOT interstate signage.

Its also a running joke that this strange new I-87 doesn't go anywhere.

That's how new interstate highways work. It was the same way when they were popping up in the 50s and 60s. They ran short courses.

No, it was very different.  They were building a national network that was well funded and were opening new highways in 30 and 50 mile segments all over the country.  70% of a 42,500 mile system was opened by 1970.

The 320 miles of PA I-80 was entirely completed in 1970, just to give one example of many.  The 325 miles of VA I-81 was 90% completed by 1968.

Building interstates in the 21st century is completely different. You can't just expect to build 30-60 mile segments in one piece. Virginia clearly hasn't learned that as they've been trying to build I-73 as one piece for three decades and have gotten nowhere, and have not built any new long-distance interstate highway since the original system. There's more of a focus with arterial highways it seems more so. North Carolina is doing 4-lane projects, though has constructed hundreds of miles of freeway / interstate highways over the past couple of decades mostly without federal funding. I-87 is just another piece to that freeway system connecting all parts of the state together with freeways, and northeastern NC lacks freeway access. See my comments above about also providing an alternate route between the two endpoints for those who aren't mileage strict and don't mind showing up 3 minutes later following the speed limits, or actually saving time if driving 75-80 mph like most people do on interstates.

[Beltway]

Not "slightly indirect", but enough so that it cannot/willnot be considered a connector between Raleigh and Norfolk (sorry roadgeeks).

3 minutes slower than US-58, 15-20 additional miles. Already refuted and proven numerous times.

20 miles more and 20 minutes slower today.  Your future predictions about relative corridors in 2050/whatever belong in fantasy highway territory.

Look, virtually the only counter-posting to my VI-87 comments comes from -you- and in the tens of thousands of words and hundreds of posts over the last year.

Why would this be unless you have a professional relationship with this highway proposal?

North Carolina is doing 4-lane projects, though has constructed hundreds of miles of freeway / interstate highways over the past couple of decades

And basically nothing on the order of a -serious- bridge or tunnel project, because of the general lack of rivers and bays needing crossing by highway.  One big one can equal the cost of 100 miles of rural freeway (like HRBT expansion for example).

Virginia has opened over 200 miles of freeway since 1990, and over 150 of that connecting with the Interstate system.  Virginia also built 10 different 3-digit Interstate routes by 1992, when N.C. hadn't yet built any.

[sprjus4]

Your future predictions about relative corridors

More like mathematical formulas and multiple speed limit scenarios. You're continuous claims stem using the existing 55 mph speed limit, and refuse to even consider what the difference would be with 70 mph throughout.

Why would this be unless you have a professional relationship with this highway proposal?

Still drinking that Kool-Aid I see. Why would you have a strong personal grudge against one specific project unless you have a professional relationship with an organization against it?

You think just because someone is supportive of a project they work for some organization? You've shown enormous support for Northern Virginia HO/T lanes through numerous posts countering my logical arguments against them. You even stuck up with them for violating FHWA and AASHTO standards, yet if a slightly substandard design is used on a project you don't support, it's a full violation and should cancel the project outright.  Do you have a professional relationship with Transurban?

Everybody has projects they support and others they don't. Don't assume just because they support it they work professionally. That's a poor argument that you can't back with any factual evidence. Similar to your claims that any and every NCDOT feasibility study is drafted by economic developers that low-ball costs and impacts. Funny, SELC tried the same claim numerous of times - and failed in court.

Do you have a professional relationship against NCDOT?

[froggie]

IF Virginia decides to build I-87 and route it over Dominion Blvd, would the bridge still be tolled?

Yes.  Chesapeake owns the bridge.  And yes, it's allowable under Federal law.

[sprjus4]

IF Virginia decides to build I-87 and route it over Dominion Blvd, would the bridge still be tolled?

Yes.  Chesapeake owns the bridge.  And yes, it's allowable under Federal law.

Well technically, ownership would be transferred to VDOT, though the bridge, as you mention, by default would continue to collect tolls, unless an approach like I mentioned above were to occur, but that's diving into the future and nobody knows what will happen there.

[froggie]

^ Not necessarily.  There's precedent for Interstate facilities to not be owned by the parent state transportation department...I-83 in Baltimore being one regional example.

[Beltway]

Your future predictions about relative corridors

More like mathematical formulas and multiple speed limit scenarios.

20 miles more and 20 minutes slower today.

You're continuous claims stem using the existing 55 mph speed limit, and refuse to even consider what the difference would be with 70 mph throughout.

You refuse to consider any highway improvements on US-58 and I-95 by 2050.

I could live into my 90s and not even see 2050.

Fantasy highway territory.

Why would this be unless you have a professional relationship with this highway proposal?

Still drinking that Kool-Aid I see.

Your Kool-Aid has pot cooked into it.

Why would you have a strong personal grudge against one specific project unless you have a professional relationship with an organization against it?

Demagoguery.  A "personal grudge" rather than objections grounded in economics and engineering.

You think just because someone is supportive of a project they work for some organization?

Frankly in 22 years on internet highways forums, the number has been close to zero.

You've shown enormous support for Northern Virginia HO/T lanes through numerous posts countering my logical arguments against them. You even stuck up with them for violating FHWA and AASHTO standards, yet if a slightly substandard design is used on a project you don't support, it's a full violation and should cancel the project outright.  Do you have a professional relationship with Transurban?

I don't have a professional relationship with anyone since 2017, and the only companies I worked for in my career were PennDOT, VDOT and VCU, and I don't need any salary or wage going forward.  Really, lots of people here know my history, and many people at VDOT could verify it.

FHWA and AASHTO would disagree that the HOT lanes violate their standards.  HOT lanes are being implemented all over the country.

If you don't like them then don't use them.

Do you have a professional relationship against NCDOT?

Is there even any such thing, unless you work for RE/T groups?

[Verlanka]

Your future predictions about relative corridors

More like mathematical formulas and multiple speed limit scenarios.

20 miles more and 20 minutes slower today.

Nice!

[sprjus4]

Exit numbers have been updated on Google Maps to reflect I-87's mileage & new exit numbers between I-440 and Rolesville Rd.

[sprjus4]

Does NCDOT plan to add I-87 shields to the western interchange with I-540?

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8781978,-78.8361736,3a,75y,161.44h,84.24t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sHDCA-v2taXYwGMH_qfbG7w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DHDCA-v2taXYwGMH_qfbG7w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D264.57047%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

Currently it has "To East 64" as it serves as the bypass of Raleigh.

"To North I-87" shields would also make sense here.

[plain]

Does NCDOT plan to add I-87 shields to the western interchange with I-540?

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8781978,-78.8361736,3a,75y,161.44h,84.24t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sHDCA-v2taXYwGMH_qfbG7w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DHDCA-v2taXYwGMH_qfbG7w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D264.57047%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

Currently it has "To East 64" as it serves as the bypass of Raleigh.

"To North I-87" shields would also make sense here.

Where would they put it? There's already a lot of shields on that BGS and it's already tall. Maybe replace the US 64 shield?

They could do what VA does and have a sign somewhere approaching that interchange with the options to I-87 North and the time it takes to get there displayed.

[goobnav]

Does NCDOT plan to add I-87 shields to the western interchange with I-540?

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8781978,-78.8361736,3a,75y,161.44h,84.24t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sHDCA-v2taXYwGMH_qfbG7w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DHDCA-v2taXYwGMH_qfbG7w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D264.57047%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

Currently it has "To East 64" as it serves as the bypass of Raleigh.

"To North I-87" shields would also make sense here.

They added I-87 shields to the BGS on the end of I-540, don't have pics but, just saw them today and believe they were there last week.

[tolbs17]

How will a freeway at Williamston be built without shifting it east of Williamston? There's a lot of wetlands there and it's not a wise choice to do that in my opinion.

[Strider]

They probably will align it slightly to the east of current US 13-17 routing, or shift the alignment to the west, bypassing the town to the west and north and meeting the current US 13-17 route just north of the Roanoke River.

[sprjus4]

How will a freeway at Williamston be built without shifting it east of Williamston? There's a lot of wetlands there and it's not a wise choice to do that in my opinion.

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-17-feasibility-study/Pages/study-highlights.aspx

A feasibility study was completed on the corridor last year determining the impacts of upgrading the 80 mile corridor between Williamston and Virginia to interstate standards and conceptual designs for such a freeway.

You can see all of the conceptual maps on the front page of the study website.

The alternatives for Williamston are -
1 - Upgrade the existing roadway to interstate standards
1A - Shift US-17 around the eastern side slightly then tie back into the existing Roanoke River bridges
1B - Shift US-17 around the eastern side further out, construct new bridges over the Roanoke River, then tie back into the existing alignment.

Additionally, in the feasibility study report, there was mention of a future evaluation of a possible western alignment too, potentially utilizing the recently-built NC-125 bypass. Don't see how that would work though, would have see a detailed conceptual map like the other alternatives had.

This early on, there's no set preferred alternative, but these are the options currently being evaluated by NCDOT.

[roadman65]

 I do not know why it needs to go north to Windsor with US 13, just continue it east along US 64 and then north across the river to meet US 17 some place near NC 32 at Edenton.

[froggie]

^ Why north to Windsor?  Because the route you suggest has 3-5 miles of either Albemarle Sound or the Roanoke & Cashie Rivers and their associated wetlands...

[sprjus4]

^ Why north to Windsor?  Because the route you suggest has 3-5 miles of either Albemarle Sound or the Roanoke & Cashie Rivers and their associated wetlands...

Also the fact the US-17 routing is more direct, serves Edenton and Windsor, and interstate-grade bypasses already exist around them. US-64 / NC-32 doesn't have that.

[tolbs17]

If it's shifted west of Williamston, then I'm guessing this is how the interchange will look like:

https://prnt.sc/ohuj3x

I'm 100% sure it would not be upgraded on Prison camp road and redo that existing interchange.

[LM117]

Actually the bigger point will be the CSX inter-modal, or inland port that will be built in Rocky Mount.  Despite the less distance to US 58, the amount of traffic alone on 95 negates the practicality of such a route, plus that traffic relief is even more far off than I-87 getting built, 95 widening is starting in the south and rebuilding the Roanoke River bridges to larger facilities is going to be costly.  Also having a secondary or tertiary hurricane evacuation route for such a largely populated area is even more logical.

Where exactly in Rocky Mount is that being planned? Do you have a link to something providing more information?

If you're still interested, the groundbreaking ceremony is set for April 24.

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/News/2019/04/10/CSX-set-to-begin-work-on-new-rail-terminal.html

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/News/2019/07/22/Construction-set-to-start-on-CSX-rail-hub.html