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Arrow-per-lanes aren't for parkways?

Started by crispy93, August 20, 2018, 07:51:56 PM

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crispy93

Hi all,

Late last year, I wrote to NYSDOT asking when the rotting exits signs on the Palisades Interstate Parkway were due for replacement because I wanted to suggest using that opportunity to move to mile-based exits like the Taconic and I-84. I also suggested that an arrow-per-lane sign be installed at US-6 due to the presence of an option lane.

The reply from Region 8 about the APLs was that "arrow-per-lane signs are not intended for use on parkway facilities." I replied asking specifically why, and noted that two sets of APLs were installed on the Taconic in 2017 (for exits 2 and 3). The reply to this was "The arrow-per-lane signs that were installed on the TSP are known as overhead arrow-per-lane guide sign structures. These signs were installed as part of the recent TSP sign contract."

It might be the stupidest letter I've ever gotten; they spat back what I sent them. Region 8 has done this to me before regarding other matters. Any NYSDOT folks know anything about the "APLs are not for parkways" comment?
Not every speed limit in NY needs to be 30


Alps

It sounds like a contextual issue with sign size.

crispy93

#2
Quote from: Alps on August 20, 2018, 09:01:58 PM
It sounds like a contextual issue with sign size.

I guess that makes sense; the Taconic at Exit 2/3 is 4 lanes wide with reasonably wide shoulders whereas the PIP is three lanes wide with a curb. Not sure why they couldn't just say so. I noticed no APLs were installed in NYC or LI when the signage was replaced in the last 3-4 years on any of the parkways (The Cross Island at the Throgs Neck and Belt/SSP come to mind. The latter overhead sign is huge). Thank you!
Not every speed limit in NY needs to be 30

vdeane

I wouldn't be surprised if it had anything to do with the fact that that's a scenic area in a park and the other ones are commuter routes.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2018, 01:03:46 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it had anything to do with the fact that that's a scenic area in a park and the other ones are commuter routes.

Northbound Baltimore-Washington Parkway, unsigned MD-295 (National Park Service maintenance, at least for now) approaching MD-197 (Laurel-Bowie Road) in Prince George's County has its version of APL (white-on-brown with the classic NPS Clarendon font) here.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Roadsguy

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2018, 01:03:46 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it had anything to do with the fact that that's a scenic area in a park and the other ones are commuter routes.

Northbound Baltimore-Washington Parkway, unsigned MD-295 (National Park Service maintenance, at least for now) approaching MD-197 (Laurel-Bowie Road) in Prince George's County has its version of APL (white-on-brown with the classic NPS Clarendon font) here.

I take it put up since the GSV was taken?
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Roadsguy on August 22, 2018, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2018, 01:03:46 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it had anything to do with the fact that that's a scenic area in a park and the other ones are commuter routes.

Northbound Baltimore-Washington Parkway, unsigned MD-295 (National Park Service maintenance, at least for now) approaching MD-197 (Laurel-Bowie Road) in Prince George's County has its version of APL (white-on-brown with the classic NPS Clarendon font) here.

I take it put up since the GSV was taken?

No. Note words below with emphasis added:

its version of APL
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

roadman65

Hey originally the US 6 exits never had numbers for exits as well as the A. Wayne Rec. Center.  I think it was the fact that US 6 merged with the PIP for its final 3 miles and like interstate to interstates in some states, they feel numbering for other routes (as US 6 is like another Parkway here).   It was in 87 all the NY exits got new numbers which rid the A suffix at Lake Welch Drive and at New Hempstead Road.  Originally 7 Lakes Drive at present Exit 19 was Exit 15, and Lake Welch was 14A where the A. Wayne Center and US 6 are in between.

Going NB US 6 had no BGS but shields on the side for both US 6 West and Long Mountain Parkway (yes the Long Mountain Parkway originally had a round shield with the name Long Mountain Parkway in it) with two up left arrows pointing to the left exit.  The gore of the ramp had a yellow diamond with the two arrows pointing down left or down right.

BTW when is NYSDOT going to replace the signs as you also wrote?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

AMLNet49

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2018, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on August 22, 2018, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2018, 01:03:46 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it had anything to do with the fact that that's a scenic area in a park and the other ones are commuter routes.

Northbound Baltimore-Washington Parkway, unsigned MD-295 (National Park Service maintenance, at least for now) approaching MD-197 (Laurel-Bowie Road) in Prince George's County has its version of APL (white-on-brown with the classic NPS Clarendon font) here.

I take it put up since the GSV was taken?

No. Note words below with emphasis added:

its version of APL
That's just an old ass sign where the arrows are too small. It has nothing to do with an APL

vdeane

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

crispy93

Quote from: roadman65 on August 22, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
Hey originally the US 6 exits never had numbers for exits as well as the A. Wayne Rec. Center.  I think it was the fact that US 6 merged with the PIP for its final 3 miles and like interstate to interstates in some states, they feel numbering for other routes (as US 6 is like another Parkway here).   It was in 87 all the NY exits got new numbers which rid the A suffix at Lake Welch Drive and at New Hempstead Road.  Originally 7 Lakes Drive at present Exit 19 was Exit 15, and Lake Welch was 14A where the A. Wayne Center and US 6 are in between.

Going NB US 6 had no BGS but shields on the side for both US 6 West and Long Mountain Parkway (yes the Long Mountain Parkway originally had a round shield with the name Long Mountain Parkway in it) with two up left arrows pointing to the left exit.  The gore of the ramp had a yellow diamond with the two arrows pointing down left or down right.

BTW when is NYSDOT going to replace the signs as you also wrote?

They currently have no projects to replace the signs, and the signs though the park are in pretty bad shape. I wonder how it's escaped the downstate NYSDOT sign purges. So are the ones in NJ. The PIP is owned by NJDOT and NYSDOT but the PIP Commission is the "operating agency." For example, both states told me to complain to PIPC about the 50 MPH speed limit on the section south of the Thruway, and thankfully they'll be raising it to 55.
Not every speed limit in NY needs to be 30

vdeane

Interesting.  Any idea of when it will be raised to 55, or if it's the whole parkway (that wasn't already 55) or just a part?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

NJRoadfan

NJDOT doesn't technically own or maintain the NJ portion of the parkway
https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2014/071714.shtm
https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/community/scenic/pdf/psbcmp.pdf (see page 78)

The signs are the Palisades Interstate Park Commission's responsibility on the NJ part of the highway. NYSDOT took over their section long ago.

storm2k

Quote from: crispy93 on August 27, 2018, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 22, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
Hey originally the US 6 exits never had numbers for exits as well as the A. Wayne Rec. Center.  I think it was the fact that US 6 merged with the PIP for its final 3 miles and like interstate to interstates in some states, they feel numbering for other routes (as US 6 is like another Parkway here).   It was in 87 all the NY exits got new numbers which rid the A suffix at Lake Welch Drive and at New Hempstead Road.  Originally 7 Lakes Drive at present Exit 19 was Exit 15, and Lake Welch was 14A where the A. Wayne Center and US 6 are in between.

Going NB US 6 had no BGS but shields on the side for both US 6 West and Long Mountain Parkway (yes the Long Mountain Parkway originally had a round shield with the name Long Mountain Parkway in it) with two up left arrows pointing to the left exit.  The gore of the ramp had a yellow diamond with the two arrows pointing down left or down right.

BTW when is NYSDOT going to replace the signs as you also wrote?

They currently have no projects to replace the signs, and the signs though the park are in pretty bad shape. I wonder how it's escaped the downstate NYSDOT sign purges. So are the ones in NJ. The PIP is owned by NJDOT and NYSDOT but the PIP Commission is the "operating agency." For example, both states told me to complain to PIPC about the 50 MPH speed limit on the section south of the Thruway, and thankfully they'll be raising it to 55.

Any source on the raising of the speed limit to 55? The PIP Police love to enforce the crap out of the 50 limit on the NJ side.

roadman65

Quote from: NJRoadfan on August 27, 2018, 09:31:40 PM
NJDOT doesn't technically own or maintain the NJ portion of the parkway
https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2014/071714.shtm
https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/community/scenic/pdf/psbcmp.pdf (see page 78)

The signs are the Palisades Interstate Park Commission's responsibility on the NJ part of the highway. NYSDOT took over their section long ago.
So that is why NYS has normal route shields why NJ has text for US 9W that reads RT 9 W underneath the control cities at Exit 2 for Alpine- Cloister.

Interesting.

MYSDOT must of been the one to conceive eliminating the A suffix exits and giving all new whole numbers as that was their project to change the signs.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadman65

https://goo.gl/maps/66M5eCB82pD2
Even worse yet for Exit 4 as seen going NB in this caption.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jakeroot

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2018, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on August 22, 2018, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2018, 01:03:46 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it had anything to do with the fact that that's a scenic area in a park and the other ones are commuter routes.

Northbound Baltimore-Washington Parkway, unsigned MD-295 (National Park Service maintenance, at least for now) approaching MD-197 (Laurel-Bowie Road) in Prince George's County has its version of APL (white-on-brown with the classic NPS Clarendon font) here.

I take it put up since the GSV was taken?

No. Note words below with emphasis added:

its version of APL

I don't understand the connection between the down arrows at the Laurel-Bowie interchange, and APLs (which have an equal number of arrows per lane). The Laurel-Bowie setup is a pretty old standard, in my opinion.

Not going to lie, I drove out to this Interchange to check it out, only to realize that you did not say APL per-se. There is a pretty nice diagrammatic sign beforehand, though.

Roadsguy

An APL isn't just any sign assembly with one arrow per lane at that point; it's specifically this type of sign by definition:



US 1 is an interstate route, but it's not an Interstate.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

jakeroot

The closest down arrow setup is definitely the MNDOT style, with a vertical separator over the lane arrow with the optional movement.

crispy93

Quote from: storm2k on August 28, 2018, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: crispy93 on August 27, 2018, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 22, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
Hey originally the US 6 exits never had numbers for exits as well as the A. Wayne Rec. Center.  I think it was the fact that US 6 merged with the PIP for its final 3 miles and like interstate to interstates in some states, they feel numbering for other routes (as US 6 is like another Parkway here).   It was in 87 all the NY exits got new numbers which rid the A suffix at Lake Welch Drive and at New Hempstead Road.  Originally 7 Lakes Drive at present Exit 19 was Exit 15, and Lake Welch was 14A where the A. Wayne Center and US 6 are in between.

Going NB US 6 had no BGS but shields on the side for both US 6 West and Long Mountain Parkway (yes the Long Mountain Parkway originally had a round shield with the name Long Mountain Parkway in it) with two up left arrows pointing to the left exit.  The gore of the ramp had a yellow diamond with the two arrows pointing down left or down right.

BTW when is NYSDOT going to replace the signs as you also wrote?

They currently have no projects to replace the signs, and the signs though the park are in pretty bad shape. I wonder how it's escaped the downstate NYSDOT sign purges. So are the ones in NJ. The PIP is owned by NJDOT and NYSDOT but the PIP Commission is the "operating agency." For example, both states told me to complain to PIPC about the 50 MPH speed limit on the section south of the Thruway, and thankfully they'll be raising it to 55.

Any source on the raising of the speed limit to 55? The PIP Police love to enforce the crap out of the 50 limit on the NJ side.

Email from PIPC Executive Director Jim Hall:
"I can advise you that as a result of ongoing consultation with state police and NYDOT, the Commission reviewed the issue at their June meeting and decided to move forward with increasing the speed limit to a uniform 55 mph from the GWB to Bear Mountain.  To implement this decision will require a regulation change which will be on the next Commission meeting agenda in September. We will still need to coordinate the timing of the change with the NY&NJ sections of the parkway."
Not every speed limit in NY needs to be 30

roadman65

Would be nice if the NJ portion added mileage signs. Going NB the first one is in NY stating mileage to the Thruway (no interstate shields) and Bear Mountain and one other in New City for Lake Welch and Bear Mountain.  As you come off the GWB there is none at all until you get to near Sparkill.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe



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