Pennsylvania

[noelbotevera]

Okay, what is up with PA's numbering system? I swear it was anarchy in the office that day.

So it looks like PA groups routes in similar areas; PA 72 is near its "child" routes PA 272, PA 372, and PA 772...then PA 472 is completely detached from PA 72.

Or even better: PA 14 is in the northern part of the state (Bradford and Tioga counties). PA 114? Oh, just down in the Harrisburg area. PA 214? Near York. PA 914? Why, south of Chambersburg; where else would we put it? PA 414 and PA 514 is the only child to meet or even be near its parent.

Some numbers that look like they're from thin air makes sense (PA 130 is near US 30, PA 819 near US 119) but most are nonsensical (PA 380 in Pittsburgh even though I-80 is nowhere near it).

[Alps]

Okay, what is up with PA's numbering system? I swear it was anarchy in the office that day.

So it looks like PA groups routes in similar areas; PA 72 is near its "child" routes PA 272, PA 372, and PA 772...then PA 472 is completely detached from PA 72.

Or even better: PA 14 is in the northern part of the state (Bradford and Tioga counties). PA 114? Oh, just down in the Harrisburg area. PA 214? Near York. PA 914? Why, south of Chambersburg; where else would we put it? PA 414 and PA 514 is the only child to meet or even be near its parent.

Some numbers that look like they're from thin air makes sense (PA 130 is near US 30, PA 819 near US 119) but most are nonsensical (PA 380 in Pittsburgh even though I-80 is nowhere near it).

Some of these, like the 14s I believe, are based on old numbers that were overlaid by US routes and reassigned.

[jemacedo9]

That's because there used to be some sense to all of it. 

1 and 2 digit even numbers were N-S routes, x2s in the east to x8s in the west.
1 and 2 digit odd numbers were E-W routes, x1s in the south to x9s in the north.
All were assigned before the US route numbers were assigned.

3 digit numbers 101-799 were child routes off their parent 1/2 digit numbers
3 digit numbers 801-999 were additional routes off of their parent 1/2 digit numbers in reverse order.  (for example, PA 1 was the Lincoln Highway...and you can see PA 999, PA 997, PA 995, PA 993 still connect.)

Jeff Kitsko's pahighways.com site has a great listing of all the current and former designations.
If you go to penndot.gov and download some of the older maps you can see many of the old alignments as well.

Another example:  PA 72 followed US 222 south of Lancaster city...and there was a PA 172 down in Little Britain.
PA 380 was around before I-380.
PA 286 used to be PA 80 so PA 380 was a child off of it)...but who knows why PA 80 was renumbered but PA 380 was not.  I-380 wasn't that initially, though, it was I-81E. 

[rickmastfan67]

PA 380 was around before I-380.
PA 286 used to be PA 80 so PA 380 was a child off of it)...but who knows why PA 80 was renumbered but PA 380 was not.  I-380 wasn't that initially, though, it was I-81E.

PA-380 did get renumbered, but just not resigned.  It's officially PA-400.

[Bitmapped]

PA 380 was around before I-380.
PA 286 used to be PA 80 so PA 380 was a child off of it)...but who knows why PA 80 was renumbered but PA 380 was not.  I-380 wasn't that initially, though, it was I-81E.

PA-380 did get renumbered, but just not resigned.  It's officially PA-400.

I think that should read that it's still PA 380, but now designated as SR 400 instead of SR 380. PennDOT did similar SR redesignations for PA 86 (to SR 886) and the northwestern PA 97 (to SR 197), but frankly, just re-sign the traffic routes so everything matches.

[jemacedo9]

PA 380 was around before I-380.
PA 286 used to be PA 80 so PA 380 was a child off of it)...but who knows why PA 80 was renumbered but PA 380 was not.  I-380 wasn't that initially, though, it was I-81E.

PA-380 did get renumbered, but just not resigned.  It's officially PA-400.

I think that should read that it's still PA 380, but now designated as SR 400 instead of SR 380. PennDOT did similar SR redesignations for PA 86 (to SR 886) and the northwestern PA 97 (to SR 197), but frankly, just re-sign the traffic routes so everything matches.

Technically, it is PA Traffic Route 380, designated State Route (SR) 0400.

PA 283 = SR0300 (avoid duplicate with SR0283 which is I-283).
PA 380 = SR0400 (avoid duplicate with SR0380 which is I-380).
PA 86 = SR0886 (avoid duplicate with SR0086 which is I-86).
PA 99 = SR0699 (avoid duplicate with SR0099 which is I-99).
PA 97 = SR0197 (avoid duplicate with SR0097 which is a separate PA 97 in Adams County).

But the two separate PA 29s both are SR0029.

SR 0886 is to avoid duplication with I-86 (SR 0086).

SR 0197 is

In addition to the ones you mentioned, PA 283 is SR 0300, and PA 99 is SR 0699.

[Roadsguy]

PA 380 was around before I-380.
PA 286 used to be PA 80 so PA 380 was a child off of it)...but who knows why PA 80 was renumbered but PA 380 was not.  I-380 wasn't that initially, though, it was I-81E.

PA-380 did get renumbered, but just not resigned.  It's officially PA-400.

I think that should read that it's still PA 380, but now designated as SR 400 instead of SR 380. PennDOT did similar SR redesignations for PA 86 (to SR 886) and the northwestern PA 97 (to SR 197), but frankly, just re-sign the traffic routes so everything matches.

Technically, it is PA Traffic Route 380, designated State Route (SR) 0400.

PA 283 = SR0300 (avoid duplicate with SR0283 which is I-283).
PA 380 = SR0400 (avoid duplicate with SR0380 which is I-380).
PA 86 = SR0886 (avoid duplicate with SR0086 which is I-86).
PA 99 = SR0699 (avoid duplicate with SR0099 which is I-99).
PA 97 = SR0197 (avoid duplicate with SR0097 which is a separate PA 97 in Adams County).

But the two separate PA 29s both are SR0029.

SR 0886 is to avoid duplication with I-86 (SR 0086).

SR 0197 is

In addition to the ones you mentioned, PA 283 is SR 0300, and PA 99 is SR 0699.

Additionally, the former PA 295 in York County was briefly designated SR 0297, which everyone assumed would be all they'd do, but then they went ahead and renumbered the whole route to PA 297 (including some hideous BGS overlays on I-83). I'm surprised that along these lines, they never bothered to renumber PA 86 and 99 to PA 886 and PA 699, respectively.

SR 0197 is probably the exception, not the rule, since both PA 29s are SR 0029 (as you mentioned), and both US 422s are SR 0422.

Technically PA 222 is a duplicate number of US 222, but because it serves as an extension continuing straight from the end of US 222 (unlike I-283/PA 283, which cross each other near their ends), both routes are part of one continuous internal SR 0222 designation. This also makes sense considering that the only reason PA 222 exists is because AASHTO rejected PennDOT's proposal to reextend US 222 into Allentown in the 1980s.

[74/171FAN]

I think the northern segment of PA 29 should be renumbered to PA 7 (there is none) to match NY 7, but that is heading into fictional territory.

[Roadsguy]

I think the northern segment of PA 29 should be renumbered to PA 7 (there is none) to match NY 7, but that is heading into fictional territory.

I've always thought PA 7 should be used for the short piece of road connecting PA 41 to DE 7, but PA 29 definitely deserves the number more. It would require a lot more sign changes and effort to publicize the change, though.

[Alps]

PA 380 was around before I-380.
PA 286 used to be PA 80 so PA 380 was a child off of it)...but who knows why PA 80 was renumbered but PA 380 was not.  I-380 wasn't that initially, though, it was I-81E.

PA-380 did get renumbered, but just not resigned.  It's officially PA-400.

I think that should read that it's still PA 380, but now designated as SR 400 instead of SR 380. PennDOT did similar SR redesignations for PA 86 (to SR 886) and the northwestern PA 97 (to SR 197), but frankly, just re-sign the traffic routes so everything matches.

Technically, it is PA Traffic Route 380, designated State Route (SR) 0400.

PA 283 = SR0300 (avoid duplicate with SR0283 which is I-283).
PA 380 = SR0400 (avoid duplicate with SR0380 which is I-380).
PA 86 = SR0886 (avoid duplicate with SR0086 which is I-86).
PA 99 = SR0699 (avoid duplicate with SR0099 which is I-99).
PA 97 = SR0197 (avoid duplicate with SR0097 which is a separate PA 97 in Adams County).

But the two separate PA 29s both are SR0029.

That's because it's really one route that got cleaved, unlike the other cases. I agree with the other poster, I would re-sign all of these to the new numbers. Why not?

[sbeaver44]

I'd tend to agree.  Especially the two unrelated PA 97s really bother me.

[sbeaver44]

I saw on the local news recently there is apparently talk of building a new interchange on I-83 for PA 921, which is between current exits 24 and 28.  It makes sense because getting to Manchester or Dover from 83 is not exactly direct.

[74/171FAN]

Well US 322 EB traffic was supposed to start using one lane of the new alignment as of yesterday afternoon at the Potters Mill Gap Project.  It looks like the project will still be completed next month.

PennDOT News Release From This Afternoon: https://www.penndot.gov/regionaloffices/district-2/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1803

[briantroutman]

I was debating posting here vs. the now-pinned thread linking to a database of AASHTO numbering applications and correspondence.

Looking through a 1958 PDH application regarding three-digit Interstates across Pennsylvania, one notable item I found concerned the proposed alignment of Allentown's I-178–which, as shown in the application, departed from what I had previously seen described.

The Yellow Book's depiction of I-178's path is vague to the point of being virtually meaningless. (Compare the Yellow Book's 378 with that route's actual alignment.)

Jeff Kitsko's mention of I-178 indicates that the proposed route would have intersected the Lehigh Valley Thruway between the 15th Street and MacArthur Road interchanges, displacing 7th and 8th Streets as well as the Liberty Bell Shrine near Hamilton Street. He also links a 1963 Rand McNally inset map that basically goes along with that description.

Steve Anderson's page on I-178 says that the plan for an Allentown spur from the Lehigh Valley Thruway predates the Interstate System and was first announced in 1954. He pins the route down more specifically, saying that it would have intersected its parent at a point east of the Lehigh River and west of the current Airport Road interchange. The spur was to follow the river's east bank, then turn westward and cross the river somewhere between Tilghman and Hamilton Streets, and finally terminate near Hamilton and Third.

But the route indicated on the 1958 application shows I-178 intersecting its parent virtually at the 15th Street interchange–might this have been intended as a reconfiguration, with the interchange becoming a full eight-ramp cloverleaf and I-178's northbound through movement continuing onto Mauch Chunk Road? The map suggests that I-178 would have curved around to the east side of Highland Park Cemetery, roughly following 14th Street before terminating at Tilghman Street–barely more than a mile in total length. The map was initialed and marked "OK"  by the AASHO representative.

The routing shown on this map seems rather specific to be a completely unrealistic placeholder–but it's nowhere near the routing that Steve Anderson describes, assuming that east bank alignment was already the preferred option in 1958. Yet, if this isn't merely an arbitrary line on a map, this proposed mile-long spur arguably would have provided less useful access to Center City Allentown than the arterial connection already provided via the MacArthur Road/7th Street interchange.

For what it's worth, that same 1958 application packet included a more or less geographically accurate depiction of I-378's proposed alignment.

[74/171FAN]

Well US 322 EB traffic was supposed to start using one lane of the new alignment as of yesterday afternoon at the Potters Mill Gap Project.  It looks like the project will still be completed next month.

PennDOT News Release From This Afternoon: https://www.penndot.gov/regionaloffices/district-2/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1803

Now both directions of US 322 are using the new alignment as of today.

Update on the new US 62/US 62 BUS Roundabout in Hermitage: https://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-1/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1299

EDIT (10-11-2020): PA 441 has been recently realigned in Middletown onto the old PA 441 Truck Route.  I clarified this by driving there in the morning yesterday.

[Roadsguy]

EDIT (10-11-2020): PA 441 has been recently realigned in Middletown onto the old PA 441 Truck Route.  I clarified this by driving there in the morning yesterday.

Huh. Has PennDOT announced anything about this? I see it in the signage plans for the Ann Street bridge replacement over the Amtrak line, but none of the news articles about the project mention it.

Considering Ann Street was always borough-maintained and thus had no SR designation, I wonder if SR 0441 will remain on its current alignment, or if PennDOT will take over Ann Street and 441's original alignment will become a new quadrant route.

[74/171FAN]

EDIT (10-11-2020): PA 441 has been recently realigned in Middletown onto the old PA 441 Truck Route.  I clarified this by driving there in the morning yesterday.

Huh. Has PennDOT announced anything about this? I see it in the signage plans for the Ann Street bridge replacement over the Amtrak line, but none of the news articles about the project mention it.

Considering Ann Street was always borough-maintained and thus had no SR designation, I wonder if SR 0441 will remain on its current alignment, or if PennDOT will take over Ann Street and 441's original alignment will become a new quadrant route.

I checked the CE Expert System (using "441" as a search) and clarified the following:

Ann Street, between S.R. 0230 and S.R. 0441, is currently owned by Middletown Borough, but ownership will be transferred to PennDOT and Ann Street will be signed as SR 441.

I did not realize that the public could even access this until just now.  I thought it was only accessible when logged in as a commonwealth employee on my work laptop.

[Roadsguy]

EDIT (10-11-2020): PA 441 has been recently realigned in Middletown onto the old PA 441 Truck Route.  I clarified this by driving there in the morning yesterday.

Huh. Has PennDOT announced anything about this? I see it in the signage plans for the Ann Street bridge replacement over the Amtrak line, but none of the news articles about the project mention it.

Considering Ann Street was always borough-maintained and thus had no SR designation, I wonder if SR 0441 will remain on its current alignment, or if PennDOT will take over Ann Street and 441's original alignment will become a new quadrant route.

I checked the CE Expert System (using "441" as a search) and clarified the following:

Ann Street, between S.R. 0230 and S.R. 0441, is currently owned by Middletown Borough, but ownership will be transferred to PennDOT and Ann Street will be signed as SR 441.

I did not realize that the public could even access this until just now.  I thought it was only accessible when logged in as a commonwealth employee on my work laptop.

TIL that exists. Did it say anything about a new quadrant route designation for the old 441 on Union Street?

[jmacswimmer]

Didn't get any pictures, but I was on I-83 yesterday and it appears the exit 28 signs have now been completely replaced with proper PA 297 shields!  The 7 in the shield still looked a little funky when whizzing by, but it's much much better than the patch job discussed previously in this thread

[74/171FAN]

TIL that exists. Did it say anything about a new quadrant route designation for the old 441 on Union Street?

I will have to recheck.  I thought that Union St was going to the borough.

[74/171FAN]

PennDOT Website on PA 228:Lanes to Shift on Route 228 for MSA Thruway Work 

[sbeaver44]

What was the reasoning that I-81 and US 11 run so far apart between Harrisburg and Wilkes Barre?  It just seems so odd that virtually everywhere else 81 is within 5 miles of 11.

I looked at the PAHighways site which always has a great depth of info.  I see there was a plan pre 81 to take a Turnpike extension Harrisburg to Scranton.  But I suppose that could have theoretically also followed US 11.

[rickmastfan67]

PennDOT Website on PA 228:Lanes to Shift on Route 228 for MSA Thruway Work

Corrected the URL for ya since they changed the newsid.

[dkblake]

What was the reasoning that I-81 and US 11 run so far apart between Harrisburg and Wilkes Barre?  It just seems so odd that virtually everywhere else 81 is within 5 miles of 11.

I looked at the PAHighways site which always has a great depth of info.  I see there was a plan pre 81 to take a Turnpike extension Harrisburg to Scranton.  But I suppose that could have theoretically also followed US 11.

I've only driven that stretch once, but I remember much of that stretch south of 80 runs across the top of a ridge. Probably easier to acquire land/thread the highway up there.

[Bitmapped]

What was the reasoning that I-81 and US 11 run so far apart between Harrisburg and Wilkes Barre?  It just seems so odd that virtually everywhere else 81 is within 5 miles of 11.

I looked at the PAHighways site which always has a great depth of info.  I see there was a plan pre 81 to take a Turnpike extension Harrisburg to Scranton.  But I suppose that could have theoretically also followed US 11.

US 11 follows the Susquehanna River. Much of the valley is already developed, with a number of towns and built-up areas. It would have been expensive to shoehorn a freeway in there - PennDOT still hasn't managed to do it along much of the distance.

I-81, on the other hand, largely follows a new terrain alignment so it had less development to accommodate. I-81 also shares almost 20 miles heading northeast out of Harrisburg with a freeway that would have needed built anyway for I-78, and the overall route is shorter than US 11.