DST (2018)

[hotdogPi]

Abolishing time would also help engineers. Statics problems are much easier than dynamics problems.

[jakeroot]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

What if we just got rid of time zones? Everyone use GMT.

Discussed upthread. The serious downside I see is that some people (Hawaii, Australia, new zealand, to some extent even US west coast) would have date change in the middle of the day 
It makes a lot of sense to turn calendar while most people are asleep.

There's also the problem of knowing if it's an appropriate time to contact someone, since 1400 could be in the middle of the night!

If you abolish time, it's always an appropriate time to contact someone. It's also never an appropriate time to contact someone.

You could always just say you didn't know any better.

[hbelkins]

If you abolish time, it's always an appropriate time to contact someone. It's also never an appropriate time to contact someone.

Only in Alanland...

[CNGL-Leudimin]

If we abolish time, we should abolish space as well. That way, we could get a fresh start for shape the universe as we would like .

[kphoger]

Only in Alanland...

must . . . . . resist . . . . the urge . . . . . . . . .

[tradephoric]

Who said it was hard to change a clock for DST?  Apparently for Australian Apple Watch users it's not as easy as it sounds as the DST time change led to a bug causing their watches to crash.  Supposedly Apple has released a software fix so that this bug won't affect users in other countries whose time change is just around the corner.

Some Apple Watch Series 4 models repeatedly crashing and rebooting due to daylight saving time bug
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/07/apple-watch-series-4-crash-loop-bug/

[hotdogPi]

Who said it was hard to change a clock for DST?  Apparently for Australian Apple Watch users it's not as easy as it sounds as the DST time change led to a bug causing their watches to crash.  Supposedly Apple has released a software fix so that this bug won't affect users in other countries whose time change is just around the corner.

Some Apple Watch Series 4 models repeatedly crashing and rebooting due to daylight saving time bug
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/07/apple-watch-series-4-crash-loop-bug/

Since you mentioned Australia, it might be a glitch that only happens with non-integer offsets (e.g. UTC+9½).

[vdeane]

And/or it could be because Australia effectively goes from three time zones to five when they go on DST (not including the unofficial one), since only part of the country observes it.

[kphoger]

Who said it was hard to change a clock for DST?  Apparently for Australian Apple Watch users it's not as easy as it sounds as the DST time change led to a bug causing their watches to crash.  Supposedly Apple has released a software fix so that this bug won't affect users in other countries whose time change is just around the corner.

Some Apple Watch Series 4 models repeatedly crashing and rebooting due to daylight saving time bug
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/07/apple-watch-series-4-crash-loop-bug/

Our "atomic" clocks at work automatically adjust for the beginning and end of DST.  Unfortunately, they use the old start and end dates, so the time in the building is off by an hour for several weeks every year.

[mrsman]

Who said it was hard to change a clock for DST?  Apparently for Australian Apple Watch users it's not as easy as it sounds as the DST time change led to a bug causing their watches to crash.  Supposedly Apple has released a software fix so that this bug won't affect users in other countries whose time change is just around the corner.

Some Apple Watch Series 4 models repeatedly crashing and rebooting due to daylight saving time bug
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/07/apple-watch-series-4-crash-loop-bug/

Our "atomic" clocks at work automatically adjust for the beginning and end of DST.  Unfortunately, they use the old start and end dates, so the time in the building is off by an hour for several weeks every year.

My old VCR was the same way.  Fortunately, there was a no-DST option to avoid this.

[kphoger]

Who said it was hard to change a clock for DST?  Apparently for Australian Apple Watch users it's not as easy as it sounds as the DST time change led to a bug causing their watches to crash.  Supposedly Apple has released a software fix so that this bug won't affect users in other countries whose time change is just around the corner.

Some Apple Watch Series 4 models repeatedly crashing and rebooting due to daylight saving time bug
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/07/apple-watch-series-4-crash-loop-bug/

Our "atomic" clocks at work automatically adjust for the beginning and end of DST.  Unfortunately, they use the old start and end dates, so the time in the building is off by an hour for several weeks every year.

My old VCR was the same way.  Fortunately, there was a no-DST option to avoid this.

But then it wouldn't change at all . . ???

[vdeane]

But then it wouldn't change at all . . ???

Presumably he would set it manually like a normal clock (or just remember to set the timer an hour off for half the year).

[kphoger]

But then it wouldn't change at all . . ???

Presumably he would set it manually like a normal clock (or just remember to set the timer an hour off for half the year).

Ah.  Well that wouldn't do me much good, when the clocks at work are mounted high enough to require a ladder to change them.

[vdeane]

But then it wouldn't change at all . . ???

Presumably he would set it manually like a normal clock (or just remember to set the timer an hour off for half the year).

Ah.  Well that wouldn't do me much good, when the clocks at work are mounted high enough to require a ladder to change them.

I thought this was in reference to mrsman's VCR?

[mrsman]

But then it wouldn't change at all . . ???

Presumably he would set it manually like a normal clock (or just remember to set the timer an hour off for half the year).

Ah.  Well that wouldn't do me much good, when the clocks at work are mounted high enough to require a ladder to change them.

I thought this was in reference to mrsman's VCR?

Yes the auto DST function was great until DST was changed by Congress.  Since then, the manual settings are necessary twice a year.

Most modern clocks that automatically change (like cell phones) do so by coordinating with the NIST radio signal in Fort Collins.  No setting necessary.

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations/wwvb/help-wwvb-radio-controlled-clocks

Most of the clocks I have at home, except the VCR, microwaves, and wristwatches are coordinated with this.

[tradephoric]

Barrow, Alaska (population ~ 5000) is the northernmost city in the United States and the sun doesn't rise for 65 straight days during the winter.  Considering the extreme weather conditions the residents of Barrow experience each winter, the idea that people in the Continental United States wouldn't be able to adapt to hour later sunrises in the winter is pretty ludicrous.

[kphoger]

Barrow, Alaska (population ~ 5000) is the northernmost city in the United States and the sun doesn't rise for 65 straight days during the winter.  Considering the extreme weather conditions the residents of Barrow experience each winter, the idea that people in the Continental United States wouldn't be able to adapt to hour later sunrises in the winter is pretty ludicrous.

That's pretty poor arguing.

The Maasai people eat almost nothing but meat, milk, and blood.  Two-thirds of their caloric intake is fat.  Yet they have low rates of heart disease, and they tend to have low blood pressure and low cholesterol.  Considering that, then, everybody in the world should be able to easily adapt to not eating any vegetables.

[tradephoric]

Barrow, Alaska (population ~ 5000) is the northernmost city in the United States and the sun doesn't rise for 65 straight days during the winter.  Considering the extreme weather conditions the residents of Barrow experience each winter, the idea that people in the Continental United States wouldn't be able to adapt to hour later sunrises in the winter is pretty ludicrous.

That's pretty poor arguing.

The Maasai people eat almost nothing but meat, milk, and blood.  Two-thirds of their caloric intake is fat.  Yet they have low rates of heart disease, and they tend to have low blood pressure and low cholesterol.  Considering that, then, everybody in the world should be able to easily adapt to not eating any vegetables.

Barrow is just one example of many cities that are within the Arctic Circle.  It's estimated that 4 million people live in the Arctic Circle with 307,257 inhabitants in Murmansk, Russia alone. Now if you consider the population that lives above 60th parallel north, the population expands dramatically.  There are at least 17 cities with a population of over 100,000 that lie above 60th parallel north:

    Helsinki, Finland 626,305 (2015)
    Arkhangelsk, Russia 350,985 (2013)
    Murmansk, Russia 307,257 (2010)
    Anchorage, Alaska, USA 300,950 (2013)
    Bergen, Norway 277,378 (2015)
    Yakutsk, Russia 269,601 (2010)
    Espoo, Finland 267,906 (2015)
    Turku, Finland 252,468 (2015)
    Tampere, Finland 223,238 (2015)
    Vantaa, Finland 212,473 (2015)
    Oulu, Finland 196,828 (2015)
    Trondheim, Norway 183,960 (2014)
    Norilsk, Russia 175,365 (2010)
    Jyvaskyla, Finland 135,591 (2015)
    Reykavik, Iceland 121,822 (2014)
    Kuipio, Finland 110,999 (2015)
    Lahti, Finland 103,725 (2015)

Obviously DST does very little for these citizens as at that latitude the sun is only visible for 5 hours and 52 minutes during the December solstice.  There's just so little sun it doesn't matter what you do.  Yet many people on this thread have argued that we shouldn't have DST during the winter because you want the sun to be out when people wake up.  But imagine if we tinkered with the clocks so that the sun was up by 7AM in Helsinki.  With 7AM sunrises, the sun would be setting in Helsinki at 12:52PM.  Is that really better than the current 9:22AM sunrise and 3:13PM sunset that Helsinki observes during the winter solstice?  Dark winter mornings in northern latitudes should be expected.

[english si]

Dark winter mornings in northern latitudes should be expected.

People do indeed live with late sun rises due to northern latitudes, but not without costs to their wellbeing - more suicide, more alcoholism, more depression, etc. So putting more people on darker winter mornings, and thus increasing* mental health issues, needs to have good justification. That hasn't been given!

*one of the reasons why these things increase by latitude is the later winter dawn - as shown by studies looking at the differences within timezones, the trials of year-round DST, etc.

[NWI_Irish96]

Barrow, Alaska (population ~ 5000) is the northernmost city in the United States and the sun doesn't rise for 65 straight days during the winter.  Considering the extreme weather conditions the residents of Barrow experience each winter, the idea that people in the Continental United States wouldn't be able to adapt to hour later sunrises in the winter is pretty ludicrous.

People can adapt--that isn't the question.  The question is whether or not people should be forced to adapt unnecessarily.

I get that there are points far enough north that you can't avoid very late sunrises for parts of the year.  This is about artificially forcing late sunrises on places that aren't that far north.

As far as I'm concerned, time zone placement nor DST usage should force a sunrise to be after 8am on any day that has 9 or more hours of sunlight.  Having sunrise after 8am on days with 11+ hours of sunlight is just obscene.

[kalvado]

Barrow, Alaska (population ~ 5000) is the northernmost city in the United States and the sun doesn't rise for 65 straight days during the winter.  Considering the extreme weather conditions the residents of Barrow experience each winter, the idea that people in the Continental United States wouldn't be able to adapt to hour later sunrises in the winter is pretty ludicrous.

People can adapt--that isn't the question.  The question is whether or not people should be forced to adapt unnecessarily.

For example, they shouldn't be forced to adapt to twice a year schedule shakeup.

I get that there are points far enough north that you can't avoid very late sunrises for parts of the year.  This is about artificially forcing late sunrises on places that aren't that far north.

As far as I'm concerned, time zone placement nor DST usage should force a sunrise to be after 8am on any day that has 9 or more hours of sunlight.  Having sunrise after 8am on days with 11+ hours of sunlight is just obscene.

Sunrse at 8 and 11 hour sunlight means that solar noon is somewhere around 1.30 pm, that is active DST and a western edge of time zone.
8 AM sunrize and 9 hours of sunlight means noon is about 12.30, which is either western edge of time zone without DST or eastern edge with DST.
Now, that also means 5 PM sunset - and someone will be unhappy about that as well.

[tradephoric]

Dark winter mornings in northern latitudes should be expected.

People do indeed live with late sun rises due to northern latitudes, but not without costs to their wellbeing - more suicide, more alcoholism, more depression, etc. So putting more people on darker winter mornings, and thus increasing* mental health issues, needs to have good justification. That hasn't been given!

*one of the reasons why these things increase by latitude is the later winter dawn - as shown by studies looking at the differences within timezones, the trials of year-round DST, etc.

While permanent DST would lead to hour later sunrises in the morning, it would also lead to hour later sunsets in the evening.  Assuming Americans wake up between 5AM and 8AM, it's undeniable that permanent DST would maximize the waking hours of daylight during the winter.   How would increasing the waking hours of daylight Americans receive increase mental health issues?   A good justification has been given to go to permanent DST... it would maximize Americans waking hours of daylight.

Ultimately, if you wake up at 5AM and go to bed at 9PM (ie. the early bird in the chart below), you are going to wake up and go to bed in darkness.  Permanent DST wouldn't change the waking hours of daylight they receive, it would just shift it to be weighted more to the evening hours.  But not everyone is waking up at 5AM.  If you routinely wake up at 8AM, you would likely be waking up in daylight and get to enjoy an extra hour of daylight during the evening - a big WIN/WIN (of the top 20 metro regions, only night owls in Atlanta, Detroit, Seattle, and Minneapolis would be waking up in darkness).

I put together a list of dawn/dusk times for the top 20 metro regions in America.  I wanted to consider the lighting effects that winter DST would have on early birds (wake at 05:00, go to bed at 21:00) and night owls (wake at 08:00, go to bed at midnight).  Running DST during the winter greatly minimizes the total minutes Awake in Darkness (AID) and the minutes Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.





*The early bird in all 20 metro regions is never sleeping in light (SIL) regardless if it's running DST or Standard time.  OTOH, night owls are sleeping in light (SIL) in all 20 metro regions when running Standard time during the winter.

*Detroit would experience the latest dawn out of the top 20 metro regions if the nation observed DST during the winter.  The dawn would begin in Detroit at 8:26AM.

[kalvado]

While permanent DST would lead to hour later sunrises in the morning, it would also lead to hour later sunsets in the evening.  Assuming Americans wake up between 5AM and 8AM, it's undeniable that permanent DST would maximize the waking hours of daylight during the winter. 

You can also argue that it is mostly about sunlight during morning routine. Many people work in windowless rooms these days, so sunshine during work hours is of little use to them.
you really cannot please everyone, though.

[hotdogPi]

maximize the waking hours of daylight

vdeane already said that the human circadian rhythm does not work that way.

[english si]

People can adapt--that isn't the question.  The question is whether or not people should be forced to adapt unnecessarily.

For example, they shouldn't be forced to adapt to twice a year schedule shakeup.

That's an argument for 100 years ago, or parts of Indiana a few years ago. Unless you lived somewhere without DST, you are not adapting to a twice a year schedule shakeup as you've always had it.

Sure, getting rid of a twice a year schedule shakeup is a reasonable reason to ditch the clock changes, but does it outweigh the problems that the status quo tries to deal with? It getting dark too early and wanting later light to do outdoor activities (hence DST), but not having enough to take it from the morning in winter without causing health problems (hence DST is only in summer).

How would increasing the waking hours of daylight Americans receive increase mental health issues?

Because, to do that, you are stealing the sleeping hours of daylight at that are needed for circadian rhythms, exacerbating the problems of social jetlag and late dawns that have causal relationships with increased mental health issues...