Caltrans Settles Environment Lawsuit, Cancels High Desert Freeway Project

[cahwyguy]

While scanning for headlines, I discovered this: Caltrans Settles Environment Lawsuit, Cancels High Desert Freeway Project

https://la.streetsblog.org/2019/10/02/caltrans-settles-environment-lawsuit-cancels-high-desert-freeway-project/

A recent court settlement spells the end for the planned High Desert Corridor Freeway. Bryn Lindblad, deputy director of Climate Resolve — one of the plaintiffs — calls the settlement "a victory for smart planning [and against] climate change."  Climate Resolve estimates that the freeway would have resulted in four million additional miles being driven every day. Those tailpipes would have contributed major greenhouse gas emissions, exacerbating the planet's climate emergency.

The $8 billion, 63-mile High Desert Corridor freeway would have spanned two counties connecting the north L.A. County cities of Palmdale and Lancaster with San Bernardino County cities of Victorville, Apple Valley, and Adelanto. The route would have gone through a patchwork of privately-owned undeveloped wild lands populated by Joshua Trees.

...

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not surprised at this. I was very excited for this project yet at the same time I figured this would happen. California is all but ensuring it's furthering of becoming a shithole state.

[Mark68]

I'm as much a lefty as the next guy, but I really don't understand why so-called "environmentalists" think that killing a proposed freeway is better for the environment than what will eventually happen to CA 138 when it's stop-and-go thru numerous traffic lights...

[Plutonic Panda]

Based from what I've read it seems this project by technicality is shelved and not canceled.

[skluth]

Shelved may as well be cancelled in California.

I'm also pretty liberal and still feel this project had a lot of merit and should have been built in some capacity. I'd have preferred if most of it had been built like Co Rd 215 around Las Vegas, freeway where it would be immediately needed (east and west ends) and expressway with expansion for freeway built in elsewhere. Interchanges in the middle could be added when needed or when possible. The county could then zone appropriately to make a suburban environment with an integrated transportation network rather than the jumbled mess that will now happen.

This also would have created a great alternative exurban bypass of LA from Bakersfield to the Coachella Valley. Traffic generated probably would have induced two other projects, a CA 14 bypass of Mojave and (less likely) a CA 58/CA 99 connector around Bakersfield. On the plus side, it would have reduced the need to four-lane US 395 to Kramer Junction.

There were other benefits besides a new highway. I'd be very surprised if there was still money for the proposed rail line connecting Palmdale and Victorville.

[sprjus4]

"climate change"   

More excuses from RE/T groups to obstruct any and every road construction project.

It's California though, so this should be expected.

[Max Rockatansky]

Really the freeway bypasses Palmdale, Apple Valley and Victorville could have been spun off on a smaller scale project.   CA 18 west of Adalento doesn't really have much traffic and kind of made me question the merit of the overall project.  Now if we were talking a freeway replacement of CA 138 between Palmdale and Cajon Pass that would have some true merit as a true Los Angeles Bypass

[vdeane]

"climate change"   

More excuses from RE/T groups to obstruct any and every road construction project.

It's California though, so this should be expected.

Climate change is real and we certainly need to take action on it, but the way it's being used to promote other ideologies like New Urbanism is a problem.  If they want to solve the auto emissions problem, investing in hydrogen fuel cell cars would be a great way to go.  That eliminates emissions from driving, without the drawbacks that electric cars have.  But, of course, we'll never do it, because enough of the people who want to address climate change are also New Urbanists who dream of ending car ownership in favor of self-driving Ubers.

[nexus73]

"Climate emergency"...ROTFLMAO!  Nanotech already resulted in the invention of a catalyst which turns CO2 into ethanol.  We can easily regulate this planet's CO2 level.  The next thing to do is to match the appropriate level of removing CO2 to the Sun's output.  A Maunder Minimum event is predicted for 2030 by the way, so even if we are slow on the uptake for implementing this new nanotech tool. the lessened output of the Sun gives us some breathing space. 

https://www.ornl.gov/news/nano-spike-catalysts-convert-carbon-dioxide-directly-ethanol

Rick

[ozarkman417]

IMO I do not see the point of buying a (fully) electric car unless the electricity that I use to fuel it comes from a renewable source. Otherwise, as explained by the image, it defeats the point.

SM-G965U

[Bobby5280]

I'm as much a lefty as the next guy, but I really don't understand why so-called "environmentalists" think that killing a proposed freeway is better for the environment than what will eventually happen to CA 138 when it's stop-and-go thru numerous traffic lights...

Exactly.

What I find really suspicious is this PR statement:
"a victory for smart planning [and against] climate change."  Climate Resolve estimates that the freeway would have resulted in four million additional miles being driven every day. Those tailpipes would have contributed major greenhouse gas emissions, exacerbating the planet's climate emergency."

Are these clowns actually trying to claim that by blocking development of this regional bypasss they're somehow going to reduce the population in the area? It takes people to drive so and such many charted miles. By them saying they're going to reduce 4 million miles per day of driving from vehicles it sounds like they're claiming fewer vehicles will be on the region's roads when that clearly may not be the case at all. Southern California has a giant population and one that is still growing to some degree despite the hatefully obscene living costs out there. Everyone drives out there. Everyone! So if the hordes of motorists can't move from point A to point B efficiently and have to lose lots of time idling at stop lights that only equals a whole lot more car exhaust belching into the atmosphere. That's the stuff that accelerates climate change! Freaking help the drivers get home faster with better roads!

[skluth]

"Climate emergency"...ROTFLMAO!  Nanotech already resulted in the invention of a catalyst which turns CO2 into ethanol.  We can easily regulate this planet's CO2 level.  The next thing to do is to match the appropriate level of removing CO2 to the Sun's output.  A Maunder Minimum event is predicted for 2030 by the way, so even if we are slow on the uptake for implementing this new nanotech tool. the lessened output of the Sun gives us some breathing space. 

https://www.ornl.gov/news/nano-spike-catalysts-convert-carbon-dioxide-directly-ethanol

Rick

I had not heard of this before. I do try to follow carbon-sequestering technologies. This happened in 2016. That's three years ago. Except for articles written soon afterwards, it was hard to find any articles about this even a year later. I couldn't find any from this year. One lab's enthusiasm is not a reason to believe we could effectively use this the near future. "Cold fusion is less than 20 years away" has been true since the 70's.

If you can find evidence showing progress on this and not just reference the original article, I'll be more optimistic. Right now, I'll just consider this a promising avenue of research and not expect it to help with our carbon crisis any time soon. Predictions of a Maunder Minimum repeat is controversial and is based on models not widely accepted in the community.

I think nano-spike catalysts converting CO2 is a tech worth exploring and it's certainly possible the sun could start a sunspot minimum cycle starting next decade. I also think there are good chances neither will happen and we should not rely on either as a contributor to solving our current climate crisis until we have better evidence.

[Beltway]

The $8 billion, 63-mile High Desert Corridor freeway would have spanned two counties connecting the north L.A. County cities of Palmdale and Lancaster with San Bernardino County cities of Victorville, Apple Valley, and Adelanto. The route would have gone through a patchwork of privately-owned undeveloped wild lands populated by Joshua Trees.

8 billion dollars for a rural freeway?  Are they paving it with gold??

[sprjus4]

The $8 billion, 63-mile High Desert Corridor freeway would have spanned two counties connecting the north L.A. County cities of Palmdale and Lancaster with San Bernardino County cities of Victorville, Apple Valley, and Adelanto. The route would have gone through a patchwork of privately-owned undeveloped wild lands populated by Joshua Trees.

8 billion dollars for a rural freeway?  Are they paving it with gold??

It was proposed as a 8-10 lane freeway with a bike path, solar panels, and high-speed rail, not just a "rural freeway" .

It's funny, the RE/T groups appeared in the article to have little issues with every other component, but no freeway because that'll harm the environment 

[nexus73]

"Climate emergency"...ROTFLMAO!  Nanotech already resulted in the invention of a catalyst which turns CO2 into ethanol.  We can easily regulate this planet's CO2 level.  The next thing to do is to match the appropriate level of removing CO2 to the Sun's output.  A Maunder Minimum event is predicted for 2030 by the way, so even if we are slow on the uptake for implementing this new nanotech tool. the lessened output of the Sun gives us some breathing space. 

https://www.ornl.gov/news/nano-spike-catalysts-convert-carbon-dioxide-directly-ethanol

Rick

I had not heard of this before. I do try to follow carbon-sequestering technologies. This happened in 2016. That's three years ago. Except for articles written soon afterwards, it was hard to find any articles about this even a year later. I couldn't find any from this year. One lab's enthusiasm is not a reason to believe we could effectively use this the near future. "Cold fusion is less than 20 years away" has been true since the 70's.

If you can find evidence showing progress on this and not just reference the original article, I'll be more optimistic. Right now, I'll just consider this a promising avenue of research and not expect it to help with our carbon crisis any time soon. Predictions of a Maunder Minimum repeat is controversial and is based on models not widely accepted in the community.

I think nano-spike catalysts converting CO2 is a tech worth exploring and it's certainly possible the sun could start a sunspot minimum cycle starting next decade. I also think there are good chances neither will happen and we should not rely on either as a contributor to solving our current climate crisis until we have better evidence.

Do your own research with a search engine.  The technology exists.  Matter of fact it gets referenced in an energy company commercial I see on TV.  Why deny REAL science to advance a political agenda?

Rick

[Max Rockatansky]

The $8 billion, 63-mile High Desert Corridor freeway would have spanned two counties connecting the north L.A. County cities of Palmdale and Lancaster with San Bernardino County cities of Victorville, Apple Valley, and Adelanto. The route would have gone through a patchwork of privately-owned undeveloped wild lands populated by Joshua Trees.

8 billion dollars for a rural freeway?  Are they paving it with gold??

It was proposed as a 8-10 lane freeway with a bike path, solar panels, and high-speed rail, not just a "rural freeway" .

It's funny, the RE/T groups appeared in the article to have little issues with every other component, but no freeway because that'll harm the environment 

People out here are clinging to hopes for high speed rail out here despite it being more and more likely it isn't going to make it.   The California High Speed Rail has already been scaled back to the part in San Joaquin Valley that was already under construction with no clear plan on the rest of the line. 

[Henry]

Well, it already has plenty of freeways to go around, but this latest cancellation (along with those of I-710 and CA 241) is further proof that CA is content with being stuck in the 1950s as far as planning goes.

[AlexandriaVA]

Not familiar with the project, but I glanced at the map and it seemed like a highway to nowhere.

[vdeane]

Are these clowns actually trying to claim that by blocking development of this regional bypasss they're somehow going to reduce the population in the area? It takes people to drive so and such many charted miles. By them saying they're going to reduce 4 million miles per day of driving from vehicles it sounds like they're claiming fewer vehicles will be on the region's roads when that clearly may not be the case at all. Southern California has a giant population and one that is still growing to some degree despite the hatefully obscene living costs out there. Everyone drives out there. Everyone! So if the hordes of motorists can't move from point A to point B efficiently and have to lose lots of time idling at stop lights that only equals a whole lot more car exhaust belching into the atmosphere. That's the stuff that accelerates climate change! Freaking help the drivers get home faster with better roads!

I think they're hoping that by not having the freeway, the resulting congestion will force people to live in the city and get around by bike/transit.  Never mind that cars emit more when accelerating from a stop than when driving at a constant speed, or that places tend to be developed whether there's a freeway or not.

[Bobby5280]

Not familiar with the project, but I glanced at the map and it seemed like a highway to nowhere.

I think upgrading CA-58 into an extension of I-40 to Bakersfield should be a bigger priority.

However, the High Desert Freeway would not be a "road to nowhere." Several hundred thousand people live just North of the San Gabriel Mountains. Lancaster has over 150,000 residents. Palmdale's city limits population is over 150,000. Over 100,000 are in Victorville. There are 90,000 in Hesperia. All these cities North of the mountains have been growing very rapidly, probably due to people trying to find more affordable housing. There is certainly more than enough population in that region to justify a new East-West freeway corridor. An $8 billion corridor with high speed rail and bike paths is asking too much though.

It's too bad Caltrans didn't think ahead and pull a Texas-style move by building an upgrade-able 2-lane or 4-lane regional highway before all the population blew up around the possible path. Not only do they have the local population in need of a decent East-West super highway, but the larger Southern California region needs an outer bypass of the greater LA area. Such a thing would cut down on greenhouse gases by reducing the amount of time long distance traffic is jammed in city traffic.

I think they're hoping that by not having the freeway, the resulting congestion will force people to live in the city and get around by bike/transit.

People are moving North of the San Gabriel Mountains by the thousands every year because they can't afford to live in the city center. This is one of the things that really burns me up about New Urbanist types. They make hardly any effort at all to factor personal incomes and housing affordability into their dreamy schemes.

[LM117]

I think upgrading CA-58 into an extension of I-40 to Bakersfield should be a bigger priority.

It's kinda mind-blowing that California hasn't pushed for that, given the importance of that corridor. If this was NC, it would have "Future I-40" signs plastered all over it.

[skluth]

"Climate emergency"...ROTFLMAO!  Nanotech already resulted in the invention of a catalyst which turns CO2 into ethanol.  We can easily regulate this planet's CO2 level.  The next thing to do is to match the appropriate level of removing CO2 to the Sun's output.  A Maunder Minimum event is predicted for 2030 by the way, so even if we are slow on the uptake for implementing this new nanotech tool. the lessened output of the Sun gives us some breathing space. 

https://www.ornl.gov/news/nano-spike-catalysts-convert-carbon-dioxide-directly-ethanol

Rick

I had not heard of this before. I do try to follow carbon-sequestering technologies. This happened in 2016. That's three years ago. Except for articles written soon afterwards, it was hard to find any articles about this even a year later. I couldn't find any from this year. One lab's enthusiasm is not a reason to believe we could effectively use this the near future. "Cold fusion is less than 20 years away" has been true since the 70's.

If you can find evidence showing progress on this and not just reference the original article, I'll be more optimistic. Right now, I'll just consider this a promising avenue of research and not expect it to help with our carbon crisis any time soon. Predictions of a Maunder Minimum repeat is controversial and is based on models not widely accepted in the community.

I think nano-spike catalysts converting CO2 is a tech worth exploring and it's certainly possible the sun could start a sunspot minimum cycle starting next decade. I also think there are good chances neither will happen and we should not rely on either as a contributor to solving our current climate crisis until we have better evidence.

Do your own research with a search engine.  The technology exists.  Matter of fact it gets referenced in an energy company commercial I see on TV.  Why deny REAL science to advance a political agenda?

Rick

I did a search. I even stated I did a search and found nothing other than articles describing what happened in this one lab test and the latest was from 2017. I did another search this morning with the same result. The burden of proof for someone making a claim is to support that claim, not for others to prove you wrong or to do their own research. If I make a claim that there are unicorns that fart rainbows, then it is up to me to prove it exists and not for you to prove me wrong.

I'm guessing you did your own search and also found nothing so you tried to make me do your work for you rather than bother to actually back your claim. There is no evidence that this technology has advanced one iota since the original lab test. You've made a claim based on a single, three-year old lab result and some overly optimistic statements from those researchers, scientists who have a self-interest in promoting their research. You said you've seen it in a commercial, yet provided no evidence of that commercial. That you are unable to back your claim means this is likely still a far-future technology that may never be useful despite the researchers ambitious statements. You can either prove it or drop your claim. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, not with the one who doesn't believe it.

Either that, or there are unicorns that fart rainbows. Prove me wrong.

[Mark68]

Not familiar with the project, but I glanced at the map and it seemed like a highway to nowhere.

I think upgrading CA-58 into an extension of I-40 to Bakersfield should be a bigger priority.

However, the High Desert Freeway would not be a "road to nowhere." Several hundred thousand people live just North of the San Gabriel Mountains. Lancaster has over 150,000 residents. Palmdale's city limits population is over 150,000. Over 100,000 are in Victorville. There are 90,000 in Hesperia. All these cities North of the mountains have been growing very rapidly, probably due to people trying to find more affordable housing. There is certainly more than enough population in that region to justify a new East-West freeway corridor. An $8 billion corridor with high speed rail and bike paths is asking too much though.

It's too bad Caltrans didn't think ahead and pull a Texas-style move by building an upgrade-able 2-lane or 4-lane regional highway before all the population blew up around the possible path. Not only do they have the local population in need of a decent East-West super highway, but the larger Southern California region needs an outer bypass of the greater LA area. Such a thing would cut down on greenhouse gases by reducing the amount of time long distance traffic is jammed in city traffic.

I think they're hoping that by not having the freeway, the resulting congestion will force people to live in the city and get around by bike/transit.

People are moving North of the San Gabriel Mountains by the thousands every year because they can't afford to live in the city center. This is one of the things that really burns me up about New Urbanist types. They make hardly any effort at all to factor personal incomes and housing affordability into their dreamy schemes.

The growth has been so fast and widespread that your population estimates have been surpassed. Per Wikipedia, 2018 estimates had Palmdale at 157k, Lancaster at 159k (urban area population at 514k as of 2013), and Victorville at 122k, Hesperia at 95k, Apple Valley at nearly 74k and Adelanto at 34k. The Victor Valley combined population is estimated at around 390k.

That's 900k plus that would have been served by this freeway. Not to mention untold amounts of travelers who would use this to bypass the LA Basin. Air quality would improve south of the mountains, and while it will probably increase in the Antelope & Victor Valleys, it will certainly do so if/when all the east-west arteries like 18 & 138 get clogged with cars stopping at traffic lights every mile or so.

This is where people from the other side of the mountains are moving. This is where the land to build new housing is located. That's not going to change (barring some major catastrophe). Forcing more people into the Basin is not sound policy. There is no more room in the Basin. You can build up, sure, but there is a limit before it's not seismically feasible.

Right now, probably the quickest route from points north on I-15 to points south on CA 14 through the Victor and Antelope Valleys (basically the shortest distance from Vegas to LA) runs on CA 18, CA 138 & Pearblossom Hwy. By my count, there are currently 26 traffic lights on this route.

Who knows how many in 20-30 years...

[hotdogPi]

That's not going to change (barring some major catastrophe)

Who knows how many in 20-30 years...

Water is going to run out soon.

[Max Rockatansky]

Not familiar with the project, but I glanced at the map and it seemed like a highway to nowhere.

I think upgrading CA-58 into an extension of I-40 to Bakersfield should be a bigger priority.

However, the High Desert Freeway would not be a "road to nowhere." Several hundred thousand people live just North of the San Gabriel Mountains. Lancaster has over 150,000 residents. Palmdale's city limits population is over 150,000. Over 100,000 are in Victorville. There are 90,000 in Hesperia. All these cities North of the mountains have been growing very rapidly, probably due to people trying to find more affordable housing. There is certainly more than enough population in that region to justify a new East-West freeway corridor. An $8 billion corridor with high speed rail and bike paths is asking too much though.

It's too bad Caltrans didn't think ahead and pull a Texas-style move by building an upgrade-able 2-lane or 4-lane regional highway before all the population blew up around the possible path. Not only do they have the local population in need of a decent East-West super highway, but the larger Southern California region needs an outer bypass of the greater LA area. Such a thing would cut down on greenhouse gases by reducing the amount of time long distance traffic is jammed in city traffic.

I think they're hoping that by not having the freeway, the resulting congestion will force people to live in the city and get around by bike/transit.

People are moving North of the San Gabriel Mountains by the thousands every year because they can't afford to live in the city center. This is one of the things that really burns me up about New Urbanist types. They make hardly any effort at all to factor personal incomes and housing affordability into their dreamy schemes.

The growth has been so fast and widespread that your population estimates have been surpassed. Per Wikipedia, 2018 estimates had Palmdale at 157k, Lancaster at 159k (urban area population at 514k as of 2013), and Victorville at 122k, Hesperia at 95k, Apple Valley at nearly 74k and Adelanto at 34k. The Victor Valley combined population is estimated at around 390k.

That's 900k plus that would have been served by this freeway. Not to mention untold amounts of travelers who would use this to bypass the LA Basin. Air quality would improve south of the mountains, and while it will probably increase in the Antelope & Victor Valleys, it will certainly do so if/when all the east-west arteries like 18 & 138 get clogged with cars stopping at traffic lights every mile or so.

This is where people from the other side of the mountains are moving. This is where the land to build new housing is located. That's not going to change (barring some major catastrophe). Forcing more people into the Basin is not sound policy. There is no more room in the Basin. You can build up, sure, but there is a limit before it's not seismically feasible.

Right now, probably the quickest route from points north on I-15 to points south on CA 14 through the Victor and Antelope Valleys (basically the shortest distance from Vegas to LA) runs on CA 18, CA 138 & Pearblossom Hwy. By my count, there are currently 26 traffic lights on this route.

Who knows how many in 20-30 years...

That goes back to what I was saying earlier, it isn't really much of a bypass route of Los Angeles.  I suppose if you were heading to/from I-40 it would act as a bypass of the Inland Empire but not really Los Angeles.  CA 18 west of Adalento doesn't really have much traffic whereas people are already beginning to clog up CA 138 between CA 14 and CA 138.  I don't doubt the corridor will start to fill eventually but having a "true"  bypass of Los Angeles is still something that hasn't been proposed.   Really a better argument (at least I think) could be made for having CA 138 and CA 18 as expressways, this High Speed Rail stuff ought to be shelved until more traction on what is going to happen to the main line comes to light.