New exit tabs on CA 57

[Occidental Tourist]

For about eight months there's been an overhead sign gantry missing from the 57 north at the 91 interchange due to an accident that damaged it.  They finally installed its replacement last week.  The replacement signs for the 91 include non-integrated exit tabs for each movement.  I'll try to get pics.

Apparently there's now design specs for exit tabs.  In the most recent CA MUTCD, there's now a G-70(2) sign designation for tabs.

Here's a picture of the sign gantry that was replaced.



In addition to the unique tabs, they also split the eastbound and westbound movements into separate signs, rather than the combined sign in the prior version.

[RZF]

I've never really liked that old, vertical panel BGS look that's so prevalent on CA-57. It's also at the CA-60/57 merger.

[SeriesE]

For about eight months there's been an overhead sign gantry missing from the 57 north at the 91 interchange due to an accident that damaged it.  They finally installed its replacement last week.  The replacement signs for the 91 include non-integrated exit tabs for each movement.  I'll try to get pics.

Apparently there's now design specs for exit tabs.  In the most recent CA MUTCD, there's now a G-70(2) sign designation for tabs.

Here's a picture of the sign gantry that was replaced.



In addition to the unique tabs, they also split the eastbound and westbound movements into separate signs, rather than the combined sign in the prior version.

Does the new sign still include "Riverside Fwy"?

[Occidental Tourist]

No.

[ClassicHasClass]

Booooooo. 

[myosh_tino]

For about eight months there's been an overhead sign gantry missing from the 57 north at the 91 interchange due to an accident that damaged it.  They finally installed its replacement last week.  The replacement signs for the 91 include non-integrated exit tabs for each movement.  I'll try to get pics.

I'd love to see a pic of the new signs.

Apparently there's now design specs for exit tabs.  In the most recent CA MUTCD, there's now a G-70(2) sign designation for tabs.

The G70-2 spec is the tab itself.  It is *not* the spec for a guide sign with an external tab despite what is shown in the CA MUTCD.

Additional Note...
I went to check out the I-880 express lanes which opened today and the express lane signs approaching the 880/237 flyover ramp now feature a black-on-yellow "LEFT" tab placed externally from the sign.  If these are indications that Caltrans is ready to start using external tabs, I'm all for it as it might reduce the number of funky sign layouts I've been seeing lately.

[jrouse]

Additional Note...
I went to check out the I-880 express lanes which opened today and the express lane signs approaching the 880/237 flyover ramp now feature a black-on-yellow "LEFT" tab placed externally from the sign.  If these are indications that Caltrans is ready to start using external tabs, I'm all for it as it might reduce the number of funky sign layouts I've been seeing lately.

FHWA has ordered Caltrans to discontinue placing the LEFT tab in the body of the sign and mount it on top of the sign structure as required per the CA MUTCD.  So Caltrans is going to look at every left exit and make sure the signs meet the standard.  This was in response to a fatal bus crash that occurred some years ago at the US-101/SR-85 interchange in south San Jose, where the bus driver mistakenly veered onto the HOV connector and overcorrected and crashed. This requirement from FHWA finally forced Caltrans' Division of Structures to develop a way to mount tabs on top of sign structures. There had not been any sort of a standard detail for that purpose.  I had been asking the Structures team to develop it for years.  It's a shame it took people dying for them to do it.

[myosh_tino]

Additional Note...
I went to check out the I-880 express lanes which opened today and the express lane signs approaching the 880/237 flyover ramp now feature a black-on-yellow "LEFT" tab placed externally from the sign.  If these are indications that Caltrans is ready to start using external tabs, I'm all for it as it might reduce the number of funky sign layouts I've been seeing lately.

FHWA has ordered Caltrans to discontinue placing the LEFT tab in the body of the sign and mount it on top of the sign structure as required per the CA MUTCD.  So Caltrans is going to look at every left exit and make sure the signs meet the standard.  This was in response to a fatal bus crash that occurred some years ago at the US-101/SR-85 interchange in south San Jose, where the bus driver mistakenly veered onto the HOV connector and overcorrected and crashed. This requirement from FHWA finally forced Caltrans' Division of Structures to develop a way to mount tabs on top of sign structures. There had not been any sort of a standard detail for that purpose.  I had been asking the Structures team to develop it for years.  It's a shame it took people dying for them to do it.

From what I could tell, the "LEFT" tabs were being supported by two vertical "bars" (for lack of a better term) attached to the larger guide sign.

[nexus73]

Additional Note...
I went to check out the I-880 express lanes which opened today and the express lane signs approaching the 880/237 flyover ramp now feature a black-on-yellow "LEFT" tab placed externally from the sign.  If these are indications that Caltrans is ready to start using external tabs, I'm all for it as it might reduce the number of funky sign layouts I've been seeing lately.

FHWA has ordered Caltrans to discontinue placing the LEFT tab in the body of the sign and mount it on top of the sign structure as required per the CA MUTCD.  So Caltrans is going to look at every left exit and make sure the signs meet the standard.  This was in response to a fatal bus crash that occurred some years ago at the US-101/SR-85 interchange in south San Jose, where the bus driver mistakenly veered onto the HOV connector and overcorrected and crashed. This requirement from FHWA finally forced Caltrans’ Division of Structures to develop a way to mount tabs on top of sign structures. There had not been any sort of a standard detail for that purpose.  I had been asking the Structures team to develop it for years.  It’s a shame it took people dying for them to do it.

This sounds like a poorly trained bus driver was the problem.  If the signage was a trouble spot, then a lot more people would have died from this cause.  Anyone who applies to drive a bus in a metro area should know that area perfectly.

Rick

[myosh_tino]

This sounds like a poorly trained bus driver was the problem.  If the signage was a trouble spot, then a lot more people would have died from this cause.  Anyone who applies to drive a bus in a metro area should know that area perfectly.

Rick

More like fatigued rather than poorly trained.  The NTSB investigation put the onus on Caltrans for inadequate pavement markings and signage.  Only now, 3 1/2 years after the results of the investigation were released, is Caltrans making the appropriate changes, namely the external "LEFT" tabs and marking gore points with chevrons.

[roadfro]

This sounds like a poorly trained bus driver was the problem.  If the signage was a trouble spot, then a lot more people would have died from this cause.  Anyone who applies to drive a bus in a metro area should know that area perfectly.

Rick

More like fatigued rather than poorly trained.  The NTSB investigation put the onus on Caltrans for inadequate pavement markings and signage.  Only now, 3 1/2 years after the results of the investigation were released, is Caltrans making the appropriate changes, namely the external "LEFT" tabs and marking gore points with chevrons.

This reminds me of the Bluffton University bus crash in Atlanta in 2007. Part of the cause there was the design of HOV exit signage, where left HOV exit signs were black-on-white and looked more like HOV regulatory signs. This incident was a contributing factor in what led the 2009 MUTCD to get a lot more detailed on the standards for HOV & managed lane guide signing, and may have also contributed to the development of the now-standard "LEFT" tab for left exits.

[nexus73]

This sounds like a poorly trained bus driver was the problem.  If the signage was a trouble spot, then a lot more people would have died from this cause.  Anyone who applies to drive a bus in a metro area should know that area perfectly.

Rick

More like fatigued rather than poorly trained.  The NTSB investigation put the onus on Caltrans for inadequate pavement markings and signage.  Only now, 3 1/2 years after the results of the investigation were released, is Caltrans making the appropriate changes, namely the external "LEFT" tabs and marking gore points with chevrons.

I have driven when fatigued.  Guess what?  I am still alive!  Knowing an area like the back of your hand allows for instinct to kick in even when tired. 

Rick

[DTComposer]

This sounds like a poorly trained bus driver was the problem.  If the signage was a trouble spot, then a lot more people would have died from this cause.  Anyone who applies to drive a bus in a metro area should know that area perfectly.

Rick

More like fatigued rather than poorly trained.  The NTSB investigation put the onus on Caltrans for inadequate pavement markings and signage.  Only now, 3 1/2 years after the results of the investigation were released, is Caltrans making the appropriate changes, namely the external "LEFT" tabs and marking gore points with chevrons.

I have driven when fatigued.  Guess what?  I am still alive!  Knowing an area like the back of your hand allows for instinct to kick in even when tired. 

Rick

If it's the accident I'm remembering, it was a Greyhound driver coming up from L.A. So knowing the area like the back of your hand may not always be a possibility when you're doing long-haul routes. I don't know how Greyhound drivers are assigned, so this could have been his normal route, or it could have been his first time. Articles I found said he lived in Victorville, so it certainly wasn't his home territory.

[nexus73]

This sounds like a poorly trained bus driver was the problem.  If the signage was a trouble spot, then a lot more people would have died from this cause.  Anyone who applies to drive a bus in a metro area should know that area perfectly.

Rick

More like fatigued rather than poorly trained.  The NTSB investigation put the onus on Caltrans for inadequate pavement markings and signage.  Only now, 3 1/2 years after the results of the investigation were released, is Caltrans making the appropriate changes, namely the external "LEFT" tabs and marking gore points with chevrons.

I have driven when fatigued.  Guess what?  I am still alive!  Knowing an area like the back of your hand allows for instinct to kick in even when tired. 

Rick

If it's the accident I'm remembering, it was a Greyhound driver coming up from L.A. So knowing the area like the back of your hand may not always be a possibility when you're doing long-haul routes. I don't know how Greyhound drivers are assigned, so this could have been his normal route, or it could have been his first time. Articles I found said he lived in Victorville, so it certainly wasn't his home territory.

First time such a fact has been stated in this thread.  Got any more that are unmentioned?

Rick

[Brandon]

Additional Note...
I went to check out the I-880 express lanes which opened today and the express lane signs approaching the 880/237 flyover ramp now feature a black-on-yellow "LEFT" tab placed externally from the sign.  If these are indications that Caltrans is ready to start using external tabs, I'm all for it as it might reduce the number of funky sign layouts I've been seeing lately.

FHWA has ordered Caltrans to discontinue placing the LEFT tab in the body of the sign and mount it on top of the sign structure as required per the CA MUTCD.  So Caltrans is going to look at every left exit and make sure the signs meet the standard.  This was in response to a fatal bus crash that occurred some years ago at the US-101/SR-85 interchange in south San Jose, where the bus driver mistakenly veered onto the HOV connector and overcorrected and crashed. This requirement from FHWA finally forced Caltrans' Division of Structures to develop a way to mount tabs on top of sign structures. There had not been any sort of a standard detail for that purpose.  I had been asking the Structures team to develop it for years.  It's a shame it took people dying for them to do it.

From what I could tell, the "LEFT" tabs were being supported by two vertical "bars" (for lack of a better term) attached to the larger guide sign.

Amazing.  That's just how most states add exit tabs.

[Occidental Tourist]

And here's a pic of the new sign assembly:

[roadfro]

And here's a pic of the new sign assembly:

Not only external exit tabs, but the sign heights are slightly taller than the sign trusses. It's almost as if it were designed as an NDOT install...    But it's refreshing to see since the SR 91 panels could be designed without constrained layouts.

Are the signs misaligned, or did they just not make the pull through sign wide enough? Seems odd that there's nothing over the #1 lane (unless it's an HOV lane and that signage is absent here).

[jdbx]

And here's a pic of the new sign assembly:

<whistles> That is probably the best looking exit numbered BGS I have seen in California.  I sure hope that this is the new spec and they roll it out everywhere.  A lot of the jumbled signs that D4 has put up along I-680 would be MUCH clearer and legible without the inset exit tabs shoehorned in there.

[kurumi]

It's a little change, but makes a big difference in layout, legibility, and appearance. I hope it spreads statewide.

[jrouse]

Not only external exit tabs, but the sign heights are slightly taller than the sign trusses. It's almost as if it were designed as an NDOT install...    But it's refreshing to see since the SR 91 panels could be designed without constrained layouts.

Are the signs misaligned, or did they just not make the pull through sign wide enough? Seems odd that there's nothing over the #1 lane (unless it's an HOV lane and that signage is absent here).

It's an HOV lane

[ClassicHasClass]

Could be worse. (I've seen D8 do a lot worse.)

[Occidental Tourist]

Are the signs misaligned, or did they just not make the pull through sign wide enough? Seems odd that there's nothing over the #1 lane (unless it's an HOV lane and that signage is absent here).

The signs are aligned correctly.  The leftmost lane is an HOV lane.

[SeriesE]

Not only external exit tabs, but the sign heights are slightly taller than the sign trusses. It's almost as if it were designed as an NDOT install...    But it's refreshing to see since the SR 91 panels could be designed without constrained layouts.

Are the signs misaligned, or did they just not make the pull through sign wide enough? Seems odd that there's nothing over the #1 lane (unless it's an HOV lane and that signage is absent here).

It's an HOV lane

I feel like the HOV Lane should get a down arrow on the pull through sign with a diamond on top indicating it's HOV. It's a little pet peeve of mine and what I suggested might be non-standard so carry on if it's not.

[Occidental Tourist]

<whistles> That is probably the best looking exit numbered BGS I have seen in California.  I sure hope that this is the new spec and they roll it out everywhere.  A lot of the jumbled signs that D4 has put up along I-680 would be MUCH clearer and legible without the inset exit tabs shoehorned in there.

It's the best sign assembly on that stretch of freeway, that's for certain. The kerning on this prior pull-through drives me mad:

[Occidental Tourist]

BTW, the exit tabs use the vertical backing supports for the signs below them as their mounting points. Those backing supports simply extend higher behind the tabs than they do behind other parts of the sign. So it's definitely not a separate mounting attachment design for the tabs. I wonder if this means there are not yet wind-loading specs for a tab attachment that would allow for the retrofitting of existing signs with these tabs. The lack of such specs was the reason initially given for why exit numbering was implemented with exit numbers integrated into the body of the signs rather than on external tabs like in most other states.