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Author Topic: Florida  (Read 1037132 times)

Henry

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2525 on: March 30, 2018, 09:46:07 AM »

BTW, sort of related to my prior post, I was looking at the websites about Florida's various express lane projects and I'm rather astonished to find they're proposing to build ETLs on the Turnpike from the Golden Glades all the way to Fort Pierce (approximately 88 miles). I wonder what it would cost to drive those end-to-end—and they'll be ETLs, not HO/T lanes (it sounds like the existing I-95 Express is to be the only HO/T segment). I assume the standard toll would be added to the express lane toll.

http://floridaexpresslanes.com
See, this makes no sense to me. The Turnpike is already a toll road, so why add ETLs to it?
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Re: Florida
« Reply #2526 on: March 30, 2018, 09:57:39 AM »

BTW, sort of related to my prior post, I was looking at the websites about Florida's various express lane projects and I'm rather astonished to find they're proposing to build ETLs on the Turnpike from the Golden Glades all the way to Fort Pierce (approximately 88 miles). I wonder what it would cost to drive those end-to-end—and they'll be ETLs, not HO/T lanes (it sounds like the existing I-95 Express is to be the only HO/T segment). I assume the standard toll would be added to the express lane toll.

http://floridaexpresslanes.com
See, this makes no sense to me. The Turnpike is already a toll road, so why add ETLs to it?

Either 1) improve the traffic flow at certain locations,
2) mo' money, mo' money,
3) both.

I choose both...
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Re: Florida
« Reply #2527 on: March 30, 2018, 11:33:50 AM »

Either 1) improve the traffic flow at certain locations,
2) mo' money, mo' money,
3) both.

I choose both...

At the conceptual level, there is little difference between tolled and untolled general-purpose lanes in the same corridor as tolled express lanes.  In both cases price discrimination is achieved by offering traffic a choice between two price levels.

I don't know how constrained the ROW is in these locations, but suspect part of the motivation is to manage congestion while limiting the number of new lanes that are added and avoiding the political hit from an increase in the base toll.
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D-Dey65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2528 on: March 30, 2018, 02:29:09 PM »

Traffic backups were always a problem at that ramp given the odd configuration for southbound I-75 traffic.  Cars would tend to back up through the traffic light for the northbound exit given the left turn lane for southbound I-75 was ahead of the light.  I never thought clearance was the issue but rather a bad traffic pattern that could have been remedied by a left turn lane behind the traffic light.  You can kind of see how the problem would develop on this GSV image from 2016:

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5233261,-82.2362053,3a,75y,237.22h,89.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s05QFjFVwF0OmJxKFMDj75w!2e0!5s20160801T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
I wasn't suggesting the clearance of the bridge had anything to do with the traffic jams to either of the on-ramps. The problem has always been that the left-turn lanes (which were already behind the previous traffic lights) were too short. One of FDOT's proposals for that interchange was to add a west to south loop ramp, which could've taken out the motels on the northwest corner, unless they considered relocating the frontage road behind those motels.

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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2529 on: March 30, 2018, 10:10:16 PM »

Traffic backups were always a problem at that ramp given the odd configuration for southbound I-75 traffic.  Cars would tend to back up through the traffic light for the northbound exit given the left turn lane for southbound I-75 was ahead of the light.  I never thought clearance was the issue but rather a bad traffic pattern that could have been remedied by a left turn lane behind the traffic light.  You can kind of see how the problem would develop on this GSV image from 2016:

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5233261,-82.2362053,3a,75y,237.22h,89.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s05QFjFVwF0OmJxKFMDj75w!2e0!5s20160801T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
I wasn't suggesting the clearance of the bridge had anything to do with the traffic jams to either of the on-ramps. The problem has always been that the left-turn lanes (which were already behind the previous traffic lights) were too short. One of FDOT's proposals for that interchange was to add a west to south loop ramp, which could've taken out the motels on the northwest corner, unless they considered relocating the frontage road behind those motels.

Interestingly that Quality Inn actually has a sizable conference center.  There is a Walmart distribution center just east of I-75 on Kellogg Road.  It took me the longest time to figure out why there was always so many cars on that particular stretch of FL 50/US 98.
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2530 on: March 31, 2018, 07:11:31 PM »

I do not know why FDOT cannot learn from Caltrans and just place a ramp behind a business.  For example look at the I-405 and Willshire Blvd. cloverleaf interchange in LA.  You have the Social Security Administration inside one of the ramps as probably these buildings existed long before the 405 was built.  All they did was build the interchange around the existing structures.

However, they did come close to it in Lakeland as both a motel and a church are inside the interchange with Socrum Loop Road and I-4, but that is because they built a hook ramp to meet Socrum Loop where it already parallels the freeway.  However, I have seen in most places where they would rather remove a structure than build around it though here in the land of Sunshine.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #2531 on: March 31, 2018, 08:31:06 PM »

BTW, sort of related to my prior post, I was looking at the websites about Florida's various express lane projects and I'm rather astonished to find they're proposing to build ETLs on the Turnpike from the Golden Glades all the way to Fort Pierce (approximately 88 miles). I wonder what it would cost to drive those end-to-end—and they'll be ETLs, not HO/T lanes (it sounds like the existing I-95 Express is to be the only HO/T segment). I assume the standard toll would be added to the express lane toll.

http://floridaexpresslanes.com
See, this makes no sense to me. The Turnpike is already a toll road, so why add ETLs to it?

To me it's not the ETLs per se that are surprising (they're building them on the HEFT south of I-75); rather, it's the sheer scope of this particular project that I find astonishing because 88 miles is just difficult to contemplate in terms of what the ETL toll would likely cost. I assume part of the idea is that the Turnpike is too narrow once you're north of the Lantana plaza and I-95 is quite wide, so additional capacity presumably makes more sense on the Turnpike. It does seem a little weird to charge a toll on top of a toll, though.
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2532 on: April 01, 2018, 04:42:45 PM »

BTW, sort of related to my prior post, I was looking at the websites about Florida's various express lane projects and I'm rather astonished to find they're proposing to build ETLs on the Turnpike from the Golden Glades all the way to Fort Pierce (approximately 88 miles). I wonder what it would cost to drive those end-to-end—and they'll be ETLs, not HO/T lanes (it sounds like the existing I-95 Express is to be the only HO/T segment). I assume the standard toll would be added to the express lane toll.

http://floridaexpresslanes.com
See, this makes no sense to me. The Turnpike is already a toll road, so why add ETLs to it?

There genuinely is no good reason that doesn't come across as a giant middle finger.

There's been a need for six lanes for over two decades now. They had the ROW but kicked the can down the road too long. Now money will be spent on an extra lane and its extra upkeep, of which any advantage is wasted because some slowpoke to hold up the parade without the ability to pass them, precluding any advantage to a high-speed lane. Traffic will flow better with the chance for actual passing and getting back over; the exits are typically 4-8 miles apart in most places, so there's not much reason to shunt over traffic into the middle lane and hold up everyone else's commute.

Many of the overpasses date back to 1955-1956, with only a few detail changes, so that's the part which will really take time. So expect a few years of 55 mph speed limits with the end result of a doubly-tolled road when it's completed.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 09:51:39 AM by formulanone »
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1995hoo

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2533 on: April 01, 2018, 10:33:32 PM »

Is there to be only one ETL on each side? That's a serious question—I guess I just assumed if they were to go to the trouble and expense they'd build two in each direction.
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jdb1234

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2534 on: April 02, 2018, 09:35:27 AM »

Is there to be only one ETL on each side? That's a serious question—I guess I just assumed if they were to go to the trouble and expense they'd build two in each direction.

For the answer, it does in fact say two in each direction from the Turnpike/HEFT split all the way to Fort Pierce.  There are also proposals for express lanes from Kissimmee to I-75
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emory

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2535 on: April 04, 2018, 01:01:26 PM »

I’ve been down in South Florida for a few weeks and will be for three more, so I got to take some pictures.

I got to drive the I-75 Express Lanes which are open from the Turnpike interchange in Miami-Dade to I-595. The 595 lanes, which they hook up directly to, were closed.




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emory

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2536 on: April 04, 2018, 01:09:09 PM »

Construction of the US 41/Tamiami Trail bridge project in west Miami-Dade.


« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 11:19:05 PM by emory »
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adventurernumber1

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2537 on: April 04, 2018, 09:01:03 PM »

All that new stuff looks beautiful. It looks like the roads down there are really getting some love. Thank you very much for sharing those photos!  :nod:  :thumbsup:
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D-Dey65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2538 on: April 08, 2018, 01:56:10 AM »

Is that going to be a SPUI or a DDI?  Whatever, either of them would eliminate a back up.  Too bad further south at SR 54 they did not design a SPUI as that one needs it. The improvement did nothing as still making a left off of NB 75 still has to wait for the SB ramp on the other side to turn green.  The queue for that signal backs up into the NB ramps signal.
A DDI would simply replace traffic jams at a signal for left-turn lanes with traffic jams at a signal for lanes diverging to the other side.

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2539 on: April 16, 2018, 08:06:55 PM »

Pardon the quality but I put my father on assignment to get these signs and sure enough he did:

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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2540 on: April 17, 2018, 04:36:46 PM »

Pardon the quality but I put my father on assignment to get these signs and sure enough he did:


Davenport I take?

Also in Winter Haven an old faded US 17 shield is along one of the side streets as well.
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emory

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2541 on: April 18, 2018, 03:22:13 PM »



Here’s one of a surprising handful of erroroneous US 441 shields in the field misidentifying it as SR 441. The biggest offender is on an overhead atop the Golden Glades Interchange.



Here’s a shield error at the intersection with Dixie Highway (SR 811) in Fort Lauderdale, identifying it incorrectly as SR 816, which is further south and runs east/west.

I also drove the latest opening of Hiatus Road, which now connects Oakland Park Boulevard to Sunrise Boulevard. After decades of construction there’s now only two gaps left in the road: From Orange Drive across Griffin Road to 48th Street, and from 49th Place to 55th Street. Everything between Orange and Stirling needs to be widened to match its segments to the north and south.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 04:03:07 PM by emory »
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2542 on: April 18, 2018, 07:14:56 PM »

I also drove the latest opening of Hiatus Road, which now connects Oakland Park Boulevard to Sunrise Boulevard.

I always found this to be one of the most aptly named roads in the history of mankind. There should always be a gap in it.

The biggest offender is on an overhead atop the Golden Glades Interchange.

Which segment of the Golden Glades Interchange has an "FL 441" error sign? Never seen it before, so it must be a recent error.

(I know your photo is from Okeechobee Road / FL 704.)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 07:19:49 PM by formulanone »
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emory

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2543 on: April 18, 2018, 09:40:36 PM »



It’s where these signs used to be. They were badly damaged and recently replaced.
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2544 on: April 18, 2018, 10:05:49 PM »



Here’s one of a surprising handful of erroroneous US 441 shields in the field misidentifying it as SR 441. The biggest offender is on an overhead atop the Golden Glades Interchange.



Here’s a shield error at the intersection with Dixie Highway (SR 811) in Fort Lauderdale, identifying it incorrectly as SR 816, which is further south and runs east/west.

I also drove the latest opening of Hiatus Road, which now connects Oakland Park Boulevard to Sunrise Boulevard. After decades of construction there’s now only two gaps left in the road: From Orange Drive across Griffin Road to 48th Street, and from 49th Place to 55th Street. Everything between Orange and Stirling needs to be widened to match its segments to the north and south.
There is a FL 441 in Daytona Beach, so its funny that the route gets signed hundreds of miles away.  US 19 once got signed along US 27, but not between Perry and Capps where the two routes concur.  It was in Lake County where FL 19 interchanges with US 27, but since have been rectified.

In FL you have you have many US routes that have state routes with same number. US 17 and SR 17 (they intersect in Haines City too). US 19 and SR 19,  US 23 and SR 23, US 29 and SR 29.  I do not know if there are more or not, but its funny that an error would occur with another shield of a duplicate route number.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #2545 on: April 18, 2018, 10:48:07 PM »

In FL you have you have many US routes that have state routes with same number. US 17 and SR 17 (they intersect in Haines City too). US 19 and SR 19,  US 23 and SR 23, US 29 and SR 29.  I do not know if there are more or not, but its funny that an error would occur with another shield of a duplicate route number.

Interstates have the same issues.

I-10 & FL-10 in Jacksonville (FL-10 is US-90's hidden number for most of the state, but splits from it in JAX and makes it seems like it's a possible state number continuation of the Interstate)
I-295 & FL-295
I-595 & FL-595
I-4 & FL-4

Also, here's another 2 US/State number duplication you missed.
US-129 & FL-129
US-331 & FL-331
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 10:50:56 PM by rickmastfan67 »
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emory

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2546 on: April 19, 2018, 01:45:21 PM »

In FL you have you have many US routes that have state routes with same number. US 17 and SR 17 (they intersect in Haines City too). US 19 and SR 19,  US 23 and SR 23, US 29 and SR 29.  I do not know if there are more or not, but its funny that an error would occur with another shield of a duplicate route number.

Interstates have the same issues.

I-10 & FL-10 in Jacksonville (FL-10 is US-90's hidden number for most of the state, but splits from it in JAX and makes it seems like it's a possible state number continuation of the Interstate)
I-295 & FL-295
I-595 & FL-595
I-4 & FL-4

Also, here's another 2 US/State number duplication you missed.
US-129 & FL-129
US-331 & FL-331

This is why I like California’s system, where any AASHTO numbered federal route defaults to its state road number, so Interstate 5 is State Route 5 and US 395 is State Route 395.

US 17 out west of Lake Okeechobee constantly interweaves with bannered routes of CR 17 as well. It’s annoying.
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formulanone

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2547 on: April 19, 2018, 02:21:23 PM »

In FL you have you have many US routes that have state routes with same number. US 17 and SR 17 (they intersect in Haines City too). US 19 and SR 19,  US 23 and SR 23, US 29 and SR 29.  I do not know if there are more or not, but its funny that an error would occur with another shield of a duplicate route number.

Interstates have the same issues.

I-10 & FL-10 in Jacksonville (FL-10 is US-90's hidden number for most of the state, but splits from it in JAX and makes it seems like it's a possible state number continuation of the Interstate)
I-295 & FL-295
I-595 & FL-595
I-4 & FL-4

Also, here's another 2 US/State number duplication you missed.
US-129 & FL-129
US-331 & FL-331

This is why I like California’s system, where any AASHTO numbered federal route defaults to its state road number, so Interstate 5 is State Route 5 and US 395 is State Route 395.

US 17 out west of Lake Okeechobee constantly interweaves with bannered routes of CR 17 as well. It’s annoying.

Probably why Florida uses a lot of the secret numbers for legislative, planning, and citations.
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roadman65

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Re: Florida
« Reply #2548 on: April 19, 2018, 10:39:17 PM »

US 27 and FL 27 were the most confusing hence FL 997 taking over the state road.  Although, I never understood why US 27 never used Krome Avenue down to Florida City instead of using Okeechobee Road and NW 36th Street into Miami.
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Re: Florida
« Reply #2549 on: April 19, 2018, 10:55:13 PM »

Although, I never understood why US 27 never used Krome Avenue down to Florida City instead of using Okeechobee Road and NW 36th Street into Miami.

I haven't a clue of the actual truth, but my guess is that the people choosing the routing thought that, at least at the time, US 27 should have its southern terminus very close to the actual city center of Miami. Florida City was probably also very, very, very small at that time as well, so the people in charge may have not seen much reason to route US 27 over there. Other people would be able to give a better answer than me, though.
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