Speed Limits That Are Too High

Started by CoreySamson, May 22, 2020, 03:13:20 PM

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sprjus4

Quote from: Ketchup99 on May 29, 2020, 02:00:59 PM
Seems like Caltrans (which posts great speed limits where they can) is in favor of high speed limits, while the Legislature (capping it at 70) is very much not.
Not fully... many rural freeways are 65 mph that could easily be at least 70 mph.


jakeroot

#51
Quote from: michravera on May 29, 2020, 03:24:48 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 10:25:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2020, 09:06:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2020, 12:01:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 12:30:33 AM
I can't find it yet, but I'm 99% sure there's still an arterial posted at 65 somewhere in Orange County.
This one is still posted at 65 mph, though it's only a 1 mile segment and there's an interchange in the middle with no at-grade intersections. It's practically a small freeway segment if anything.

Another: the 133, south of the 405. Its appearance is also very freeway-like, although it has a couple signals immediately south of the 405. It remains as 65 before it drops to 60 immediately prior (spin camera around) to the parclo interchange with the 73 Toll Road, several miles south.

I swear on my life that there's another somewhere, and a decidedly more suburban example at that, but I can't find it.
And route one north of Boston (non freeway part) can't get above 50...

Two big things (second thing being the most important):

1) these Orange County arterials are of extremely high quality, with good pavement, limited access, straightened curves, and wide lanes.

2) California has strict "speed trap" laws that prevent enforcement of speeds along roadways that have not had speed studies performed recently. These speed studies generally result in limits posted near the 85th percentile, which along many of these Orange County arterials, are pretty high. Some municipalities might have an arbitrary cap on limits within certain areas, or along certain types of roads. It's tougher to do this in California because posted limits are basically unenforceable if there isn't a speed study showing that limit to be appropriate.

As an example for number 2, look at the link I posted for the 133: the limit is 65, despite having signals and traditional right and left turn lanes. Some places might put a speed limit cap on roads like this (eg, "roads with signals cannot be higher than 55"), but California simply doesn't. If Orange County or Caltrans wanted to lower the limit, they certainly could. But it would not be enforceable (to a reasonable degree**) without a speed study showing something under 65 to be more appropriate.

** EDIT: California's Prima Facie limit is 65, so it's not like speed is entirely unenforceable. But, a non-freeway road with more than two lanes and a limit of 45 without a speed study would have little enforcement below 65, for example.

California's Statutory Maximum on Non-Freeways is 65MPH. The Prima Facie limit is whatever lower limit might be posted. Tickets issued for violating PF speed limits in California may be overcome with "Competent Evidence" that the speed traveled was safe and reasonable. I have asked a (now former) Law Clerk for the California State Court of Appeals how strong "Competent Evidence" is. His answer was that CVC 22350 is the only place in the Statutes where it is used and that no case had ever come before the Court of Appeals causing the term to be defined, but, like me, he assumed that it would be sronger than that required to the inject "Reasonable Doubt" but far a far lower standard than "Preponderance of the Evidence".

Thanks for the info. Prima Facie speed rules confuse the hell out of me. I understood 65 to be the absolute limit for roads that A) weren't freeways, and B) weren't two-lane roads, but couldn't remember if that made it a prima facie limit in that, exceeding that speed in all cases, unless it says otherwise, is evidence of speeding.

I believe all states have a "reasonable and prudent" (or equivalent) clause that can allow you to get out of a ticket, but California makes it a hair easier to get out of those tickets by having their speed-study laws. Once a speed study expires for a roadway, my understanding is that enforcing the limit along those roadways is a "speed trap" unto itself. There has been bills in the past to dump the speed trap law for this exact reason. To do speed enforcement, LA (in a highly publicized move a few years ago) raised its limits, but I cannot figure out why raising the limits made them enforceable again, especially if speed studies are the root for enforcement in California.

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2020, 01:30:34 PM
Statutory maximum of 70 mph on freeways, 65 mph on all other roads. No limits to what can go up to 65 mph, two-lane, four-lane divided highway, urban arterial, etc.

I believe 55 is the absolute limit for all two-lane roads.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: jakeroot on May 29, 2020, 02:10:54 PM
Quote from: michravera on May 29, 2020, 03:24:48 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 10:25:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2020, 09:06:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 28, 2020, 12:01:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 12:30:33 AM
I can't find it yet, but I'm 99% sure there's still an arterial posted at 65 somewhere in Orange County.
This one is still posted at 65 mph, though it's only a 1 mile segment and there's an interchange in the middle with no at-grade intersections. It's practically a small freeway segment if anything.

Another: the 133, south of the 405. Its appearance is also very freeway-like, although it has a couple signals immediately south of the 405. It remains as 65 before it drops to 60 immediately prior (spin camera around) to the parclo interchange with the 73 Toll Road, several miles south.

I swear on my life that there's another somewhere, and a decidedly more suburban example at that, but I can't find it.
And route one north of Boston (non freeway part) can't get above 50...

Two big things (second thing being the most important):

1) these Orange County arterials are of extremely high quality, with good pavement, limited access, straightened curves, and wide lanes.

2) California has strict "speed trap" laws that prevent enforcement of speeds along roadways that have not had speed studies performed recently. These speed studies generally result in limits posted near the 85th percentile, which along many of these Orange County arterials, are pretty high. Some municipalities might have an arbitrary cap on limits within certain areas, or along certain types of roads. It's tougher to do this in California because posted limits are basically unenforceable if there isn't a speed study showing that limit to be appropriate.

As an example for number 2, look at the link I posted for the 133: the limit is 65, despite having signals and traditional right and left turn lanes. Some places might put a speed limit cap on roads like this (eg, "roads with signals cannot be higher than 55"), but California simply doesn't. If Orange County or Caltrans wanted to lower the limit, they certainly could. But it would not be enforceable (to a reasonable degree**) without a speed study showing something under 65 to be more appropriate.

** EDIT: California's Prima Facie limit is 65, so it's not like speed is entirely unenforceable. But, a non-freeway road with more than two lanes and a limit of 45 without a speed study would have little enforcement below 65, for example.

California's Statutory Maximum on Non-Freeways is 65MPH. The Prima Facie limit is whatever lower limit might be posted. Tickets issued for violating PF speed limits in California may be overcome with "Competent Evidence" that the speed traveled was safe and reasonable. I have asked a (now former) Law Clerk for the California State Court of Appeals how strong "Competent Evidence" is. His answer was that CVC 22350 is the only place in the Statutes where it is used and that no case had ever come before the Court of Appeals causing the term to be defined, but, like me, he assumed that it would be sronger than that required to the inject "Reasonable Doubt" but far a far lower standard than "Preponderance of the Evidence".

Thanks for the info. Prima Facie speed rules confuse the hell out of me. I understood 65 to be the absolute limit for roads that A) weren't freeways, and B) weren't two-lane roads, but couldn't remember if that made it a prima facie limit in that, exceeding that speed in all cases, unless it says otherwise, is evidence of speeding.

I believe all states have a "reasonable and prudent" (or equivalent) clause that can allow you to get out of a ticket, but California makes it a hair easier to get out of those tickets by having their speed-study laws. Once a speed study expires for a roadway, my understanding is that enforcing the limit along those roadways is a "speed trap" unto itself. There has been bills in the past to dump the speed trap law for this exact reason. To do speed enforcement, LA (in a highly publicized move a few years ago) raised its limits, but I cannot figure out why raising the limits made them enforceable again, especially if speed studies are the root for enforcement in California.

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2020, 01:30:34 PM
Statutory maximum of 70 mph on freeways, 65 mph on all other roads. No limits to what can go up to 65 mph, two-lane, four-lane divided highway, urban arterial, etc.

I believe 55 is the absolute limit for all two-lane roads.
Nope, I've seen 60 and 65 on two lane roads in California.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

jakeroot

#53
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2020, 02:14:55 PM
Nope, I've seen 60 and 65 on two lane roads in California.

Two lane undivided roads are capped at 55 per CVC 22349. Were you on one of those all-too-common two-lane divided highways? :-D

EDIT: wrong CVC

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: jakeroot on May 29, 2020, 02:16:47 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2020, 02:14:55 PM
Nope, I've seen 60 and 65 on two lane roads in California.

Two lane undivided roads are capped at 55 per CVC 22350. Were you on one of those all-too-common two-lane divided highways? :-D
I've seen 2 lane roads in the death valley at 65 on GSV, as well as parts of US 95 and US 395.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

jakeroot

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2020, 02:24:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 29, 2020, 02:16:47 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2020, 02:14:55 PM
Nope, I've seen 60 and 65 on two lane roads in California.

Two lane undivided roads are capped at 55 per CVC 22350. Were you on one of those all-too-common two-lane divided highways? :-D
I've seen 2 lane roads in the death valley at 65 on GSV, as well as parts of US 95 and US 395.

So CVC 22349 (my bad) has an absolute limit for two-lane undivided roads of 55, but I see now that it does permit increases beyond that. It was my understanding that California simply never bothered to do so. California, almost religiously, will post two-lane roads at 55 whenever possible, but that's the most you get out of them. Other states are pickier about where they post higher limits, but will go higher with those limits (Oregon and Washington, for instance, who both post 65 along two-lane roads (70 as well in Oregon, remarkably) but are more "nanny states" in that limits get lowered for all sorts of reasons where they might not be in California (curvy section of road, for example).

sprjus4

#56
I recall two-lane US-395 being mostly 65 mph between I-15 and SR-58 on my trip there a few years back.

Straight shot through the desert for 30 miles, though did have occasional passing lanes.

I was usually able to maintain 75 mph without any issues.

capt.ron

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 25, 2020, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 25, 2020, 09:44:06 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2020, 03:26:14 PM
Sticking with Texas...

I think the northernmost 9 miles of I-35 should be 70 mph, not 75.

Parts of US 59 should be 65 or 70 that are posted 75.  There are places that are not freeway with center turn lanes, driveways of homes and businesses, and intersections very frequent that are posted at 75 mph.
Maybe 70 mph, but I've never really had a problem with 75 mph. What areas specifically are you referring to?
I can think of one stretch in particular on US 59, between Teneha and Timpson, has a 75 mph limit on its 4 lane "poor boy" section. IMHO, it should be set at 65 mph.

jakeroot

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
I recall two-lane US-395 being mostly 65 mph between I-15 and SR-58 on my trip there a few years back.

Straight shot through the desert for 30 miles, though did have occasional passing lanes.

I was usually able to maintain 75 mph without any issues.

You recall it because it is! GSV Link. I never knew California did this. I mean, it's a textbook example of where 55 would be stupidly low.

doorknob60

#59
Quote from: jakeroot on May 29, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
I recall two-lane US-395 being mostly 65 mph between I-15 and SR-58 on my trip there a few years back.

Straight shot through the desert for 30 miles, though did have occasional passing lanes.

I was usually able to maintain 75 mph without any issues.

You recall it because it is! GSV Link. I never knew California did this. I mean, it's a textbook example of where 55 would be stupidly low.

Yeah, there's quite a few others as well. Most of US-97 is 65 MPH (it was always a breath of fresh air after driving hundreds of miles through Oregon's 55 at the time). A lot of CA-139 is. CA-14 is one (only seen via GSV for me) and US-395 as mentioned (both north and south of the Nevada segment). Definitely plenty more if you look around on GSV, like CA-190 and CA-62 are two I tried now.

On the other hand, some highways switch between 55 and 65 when switching between 2 and 4 lanes, like US-101 and US-199 I believe.

michravera

Quote from: Ketchup99 on May 29, 2020, 02:00:59 PM
Seems like Caltrans (which posts great speed limits where they can) is in favor of high speed limits, while the Legislature (capping it at 70) is very much not.

The Legislature doesn't often consider speed limit increases. In 1995, when the US congress gave states back the right to set their own speed limits, the California Legislature basically reinstated the pre-1974 laws (but made an additional provision that kept 55MPH as the default on some roads). There was barely a single dissenting vote in either house. I suspect that, if anyone introduced a bill to raise the maximum speed on freeways to 80MPH (and the maximum on other roads to 70MPH?) in the 44 (or 40 depending upon the precise definition***) counties that don't touch the Pacific Ocean, it would pass almost as unanimously as it did in 1995.

*** Alameda, Contra Costa, and Solano counties touch the San Francisco Bay, but not the open Pacific.
*** Sacramento county has a river that widens to touch San Francisco Bay. Whether one calls the body of water spanned by the Antioch Bridge an inlet of the bay or a wide part of a river is open to debate. Yolo county has a similar situation, but doesn't get quite as close as Sacramento does


crispy93

Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 10:25:54 PM
2) California has strict "speed trap" laws that prevent enforcement of speeds along roadways that have not had speed studies performed recently. These speed studies generally result in limits posted near the 85th percentile

God I'd LOVE this is New York. Every 30 mph zone would be raised to 45 overnight. Wish NYSDOT was more assertive about reviewing their own speed limits. As it stands, the request has to originate from the town/city/village board and convincing a 14-term village mayor to raise a speed limit is a nonstarter.
Not every speed limit in NY needs to be 30

jakeroot

Quote from: crispy93 on June 05, 2020, 05:29:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 28, 2020, 10:25:54 PM
2) California has strict "speed trap" laws that prevent enforcement of speeds along roadways that have not had speed studies performed recently. These speed studies generally result in limits posted near the 85th percentile

God I'd LOVE this is New York. Every 30 mph zone would be raised to 45 overnight. Wish NYSDOT was more assertive about reviewing their own speed limits. As it stands, the request has to originate from the town/city/village board and convincing a 14-term village mayor to raise a speed limit is a nonstarter.

If you are interested in California's law, I would suggest moving to California :-D. Laws like these date to days when motorist lobbies were even stronger than they are now. Now, you'd be very hard-pressed to get a law passed like this in any other state. In fact, my guess is that the California law will be overturned before any other state would adopt a similar law*. Mostly because of the bad press that the law gets, often being cited as the reason motorists can basically drive as fast as they want without being bothered by police, and why California is so widely known for its high-paced, high-speed driving. Which sounds good, but not always on city streets. This works fine in and around Irvine, but you really don't want someone blowing down Sunset Blvd at 55 just because there's no speed study in place.

* there are probably states out there with speed trap laws, but California's is probably most infamous.

keithvh

WV and KY have a bunch of narrow, 2-lane curvy and hilly roads that are signed at 55 MPH - too high.  It's darn near impossible to get to 55 MPH even if one wants too on some of those roads.

Anyway, there are literally dozens of these, but the most memorable to me are:

(1) US-250 (WV) from Fairmount to Hundred.
(2) WV-7 from Hundred to New Martinsville.
(3) WV-82 from Birch River to Cowen.
(4) US-460 (KY) from Paris to Mount Sterling.

Occidental Tourist

US-163 between Monument Valley and Mexican Hat.  It's posted at 65, but there are a couple of places where the road has switchbacks where it really should be 45 or 50 because of the radii of the curves and because there are no shoulders.

adwerkema

US-41 in northern suburbs of Evansville, IN. Speed limit is posted as 60mph, but the prevalence of traffic lights makes it difficult to actually go 60mph. I found myself letting off the gas when approaching green traffic lights in case they turned yellow.

webny99

I'm sure a search of my post history would show that I've mentioned this one before, but anyways, 60 mph on US 16A (Rapid City bypass) is impossibly high. I don't think I reached much less exceeded the limit even once on the entire route.

Flint1979

Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2020, 11:47:18 PM
A 55 mph road where the flow of traffic is always well below the speed limit?
Look no further. And, just for kicks, here's another one a little closer to home.
Sounds like M-84 in my area. North of Tittabawassee it goes to 50 mph and then to 55 mph just before Kochville and no one ever goes the speed limit. I do it if no one's holding me up from being able to do the speed limit though.

ftballfan

M-55 in Wellston is 60 mph and there was an article recently in the local paper that mentioned residents would like to see the speed limit reduced through there after a fatal accident. I thought the previous 55 mph limit was a little too fast and I was surprised to see MDOT raise the speed limit through Wellston when M-55 between Manistee and Cadillac was raised to 65 mph.

IMHO, M-55 in the Wellston area (Bosschem Rd to Tippy Dam Rd) should be 50 mph (or MAYBE 55 mph).

adwerkema

Quote from: ftballfan on June 14, 2020, 09:35:18 PM
M-55 in Wellston is 60 mph and there was an article recently in the local paper that mentioned residents would like to see the speed limit reduced through there after a fatal accident. I thought the previous 55 mph limit was a little too fast and I was surprised to see MDOT raise the speed limit through Wellston when M-55 between Manistee and Cadillac was raised to 65 mph.

IMHO, M-55 in the Wellston area (Bosschem Rd to Tippy Dam Rd) should be 50 mph (or MAYBE 55 mph).

Wow, had no idea MDOT raised it to 65 mph. I'll have to check it out when I go on the Pine River this weekend.

jakeroot

Quote from: webny99 on June 14, 2020, 05:42:24 PM
I'm sure a search of my post history would show that I've mentioned this one before, but anyways, 60 mph on US 16A (Rapid City bypass) is impossibly high. I don't think I reached much less exceeded the limit even once on the entire route.

I haven't driven it personally, but wouldn't that actually make it a good limit? If it's something that most drivers don't exceed, that pretty much meets the definition of "85th percentile", assuming SD DOT is using those calculations to determine an appropriate limit.

Flint1979

There's a street not too far from me that has a speed limit of 35 it's a residential street where you would think that the speed limit would be 25.

webny99

Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 04:16:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 14, 2020, 05:42:24 PM
I'm sure a search of my post history would show that I've mentioned this one before, but anyways, 60 mph on US 16A (Rapid City bypass) is impossibly high. I don't think I reached much less exceeded the limit even once on the entire route.

I haven't driven it personally, but wouldn't that actually make it a good limit? If it's something that most drivers don't exceed, that pretty much meets the definition of "85th percentile", assuming SD DOT is using those calculations to determine an appropriate limit.

Well, maybe, but it runs contrary to what I'm used to, and what's done in this part of the country. My mindset is to always go at least the speed limit so as not to obstruct other traffic, but between the curves, grades, and stoplights on 16A, 60 mph seems to usually be out of reach. It's not that you can't reach that speed, it's just that it's usually impractical without excessive accelerating/braking. I guess I just don't see the advantage of setting it so high - at that point, what's the difference between an unsustainable limit and no limit at all?

bwana39

Quote from: debragga on May 22, 2020, 04:56:14 PM
Near Douglassville, TX. 2-lane road with curves, no shoulder, and plenty of driveways/county roads intersecting it, signed at 70mph: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1888097,-94.3429889,3a,75y,123.83h,84.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSyKvUhd4V-LfmWEainR4VA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Just like the straighter FM Roads.  Maybe  55 or 60 MPH between Douglassville & US59 but for sure west of SH8 70 MPH would be comensurate with the other roads. Some times a lower speed limit can cause more trouble than a high one. Especially when most of the drivers fail to follow it,
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

bwana39

#74
Sometimes speed limits are not about anything except fines. If the traffic regularly runs at 50 mph. If the limit is 50. There is no fine possible. If it is 40 you are ten above. If is 30 you are 20 above with the commensurately higher fine levels.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.



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