Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'

[cjw2001]

The traffic volume issue at this roundabout is very time specific (when the nearby high school of 5,000 students generates a burst of traffic).   Most of the day this functions as a very normal roundabout.  The addition of the meters to handle these short term bursts in no way makes the roundabout a "bad" solution.

[lordsutch]

I think it's fair to say (based on the experience in the UK) roundabouts with very unbalanced traffic patterns or very high volumes may need part-time or full-time signalization. That said (as I mentioned up-thread) in the US we probably wouldn't use the same approach since most US designs are for "small" roundabouts that are hard to signalize because of the lack of storage space in the circulating roadway - in the UK anything signalized would typically be the size of an old-school NJ rotary - and the volumes and layouts in the UK where roundabout signalization is typically used would normally warrant a free-flow interchange in the US.

Here's a UK government document on the subject.

Of course you still get the general injury/fatality crash benefits from roundabouts when they're signalized because the reduction in conflict points and avoidance of 90-degree angle of incidence is still in effect.

[kalvado]

The traffic volume issue at this roundabout is very time specific (when the nearby high school of 5,000 students generates a burst of traffic).   Most of the day this functions as a very normal roundabout.  The addition of the meters to handle these short term bursts in no way makes the roundabout a "bad" solution.

With all my respect... School is not a number!

[tradephoric]

You can't make this stuff up.  The roundabout at Main and Cemetary in Hilliard is the most crash prone intersection in Ohio.  The engineering firm Burgess & Niples completed the roundabouts initial design.  Now Hilliard City officials want to shell out $220,000 to study the roundabout (along with 2 other double-lane roundabouts) and come up with modifications that would reduce the number of crashes.  Want to take a guess which engineering firm they want to hire?  Instead of paying $220,000 dollars to the very engineering firm who designed the most crash prone intersection in the state, i can tell you what's wrong over a $2.20 cup of coffee... it's a double-lane roundabout.  At least City Counsel is now questioning whether Burgess & Niple is the best choice to study the roundabout.

Hilliard roundabout study gets stop sign
http://www.thisweeknews.com/news/20170301/hilliard-roundabout-study-gets-stop-sign

Hilliard City Council put the brakes on an administrative initiative to hire the engineering firm Burgess & Niple to determine whether any modifications to the city's double-roundabout intersection on Main Street could reduce the number of accidents.

City Council members tabled the resolution Feb. 27 and asked public-services director Butch Seidle to arrange for representatives from Burgess & Niple to attend the March 13 meeting to discuss the issue.

City Council Vice President Kelly McGivern asked that the resolution be postponed until March 13 and that the engineering firm "provide an explanation" why it is qualified to review the work since the firm completed the roundabouts' initial design.

[jeffandnicole]

You can’t make this stuff up.  The roundabout at Main and Cemetary in Hilliard is the most crash prone intersection in Ohio.  The engineering firm Burgess & Niples completed the roundabouts initial design.  Now Hilliard City officials want to shell out $220,000 to study the roundabout (along with 2 other double-lane roundabouts) and come up with modifications that would reduce the number of crashes.  Want to take a guess which engineering firm they want to hire?  Instead of paying $220,000 dollars to the very engineering firm who designed the most crash prone intersection in the state, i can tell you what's wrong over a $2.20 cup of coffee... it's a double-lane roundabout.  At least City Counsel is now questioning whether Burgess & Niple is the best choice to study the roundabout.

I see similar stuff all too often really.  A firm, politically connected, gets a job.  After the job is completed, results aren't what were expected.  The same firm that got the original job get another job to fix what they messed up in the first place.

The firm gets more money...and the politicians that allow it get re-elected.  It's a vicious cycle that has gone on for hundreds of years.

[kalvado]

I see similar stuff all too often really.  A firm, politically connected, gets a job.  After the job is completed, results aren't what were expected.  The same firm that got the original job get another job to fix what they messed up in the first place.

The firm gets more money...and the politicians that allow it get re-elected.  It's a vicious cycle that has gone on for hundreds of years.

Good thing that at least interstates have pretty stringent standards, and those standards are mostly followed...

[jeffandnicole]

I see similar stuff all too often really.  A firm, politically connected, gets a job.  After the job is completed, results aren't what were expected.  The same firm that got the original job get another job to fix what they messed up in the first place.

The firm gets more money...and the politicians that allow it get re-elected.  It's a vicious cycle that has gone on for hundreds of years.

Good thing that at least interstates have pretty stringent standards, and those standards are mostly followed...

Roadwise, yes.  But this activity occurs much more frequently in so many different areas.  Studies for buildings, trash trucks, parks, schools, etc, etc, etc. 

[tradephoric]

Carmel to require turn signals in roundabouts

Ever get frustrated trying to figure out when vehicles will exit a roundabout?

The Carmel City Council will consider an ordinance Monday to require people to use their turn signals to make it clear. Scofflaws will face a $100 fine.

"This is standard in countries with many roundabouts and allows a driver waiting to enter a roundabout to know whether a circulating car is going to cross in front or turn out of the circle," said Mayor Jim Brainard. "It will speed up our roundabouts and make them more efficient."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/03/06/carmel-require-turn-signals-roundabouts/98686674/

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."  



Here's an aerial of the new Rangeline Road and Carmel Drive roundabout.  Should the driver in the yellow path be required to signal when exiting the roundabout?  At no point do the pavement markings or signage indicate the driver is making a right turn.  There's a straight arrow inside the roundabout.  It doesn't make sense to require drivers to use their right turn signal indication as they are driving overtop a "straight only"  arrow.  It is confusing.

[kalvado]

Carmel to require turn signals in roundabouts

Ever get frustrated trying to figure out when vehicles will exit a roundabout?

The Carmel City Council will consider an ordinance Monday to require people to use their turn signals to make it clear. Scofflaws will face a $100 fine.

"This is standard in countries with many roundabouts and allows a driver waiting to enter a roundabout to know whether a circulating car is going to cross in front or turn out of the circle," said Mayor Jim Brainard. "It will speed up our roundabouts and make them more efficient."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/03/06/carmel-require-turn-signals-roundabouts/98686674/

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."  
.....
Here's an aerial of the new Rangeline Road and Carmel Drive roundabout.  Should the driver in the yellow path be required to signal when exiting the roundabout?  At no point do the pavement markings or signage indicate the driver is making a right turn.  There's a straight arrow inside the roundabout.  It doesn't make sense to require drivers to use their right turn signal indication as they are driving overtop a "straight only"  arrow.  It is confusing.

This is how cars would look like if designed by those designing roundabouts:

[kphoger]

Carmel to require turn signals in roundabouts

Ever get frustrated trying to figure out when vehicles will exit a roundabout?

The Carmel City Council will consider an ordinance Monday to require people to use their turn signals to make it clear. Scofflaws will face a $100 fine.

"This is standard in countries with many roundabouts and allows a driver waiting to enter a roundabout to know whether a circulating car is going to cross in front or turn out of the circle," said Mayor Jim Brainard. "It will speed up our roundabouts and make them more efficient."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/03/06/carmel-require-turn-signals-roundabouts/98686674/

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."  



Here's an aerial of the new Rangeline Road and Carmel Drive roundabout.  Should the driver in the yellow path be required to signal when exiting the roundabout?  At no point do the pavement markings or signage indicate the driver is making a right turn.  There's a straight arrow inside the roundabout.  It doesn't make sense to require drivers to use their right turn signal indication as they are driving overtop a "straight only"  arrow.  It is confusing.

I agree that's confusing.  I always signal when exiting so drivers waiting on the cross street know it's OK to start into the roundabout.  It also implies that, whenever you don't exit a roundabout, you should have your left signal on.  That seems counter-intuitive on the one hand (roundabouts have no left turns, so why a left signal?) but makes sense on the other hand (conventional signalling in the UK states you should signal right (our left) upon approaach when turning right.

This is how cars would look like if designed by those designing roundabouts:

Oh yes, precisely.  What a great argument.  Now I'm convinced, by the picture, that roundabouts are stupid and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

[kalvado]

Oh yes, precisely.  What a great argument.  Now I'm convinced, by the picture, that roundabouts are stupid and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

Those who think otherwise are fine. Those who believe otherwise...  And that seem to be overwhelming majority...

[7/8]

I find the recommended signalling technique for Waterloo Region to be easy enough:
http://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/gettingAround/How-To-Use-A-Roundabout.asp#signaling

A roundabout is similar to an intersection with signals you need to signal the direction in which you are going to take.  When turning right, you need to signal right, when going straight you don't signal, and when turning left or doing a U-turn you signal left.  The only difference is that whenever you exit a roundabout you need to signal right to show you are exiting.  Below are step by step directions on how to signal:

Turning Right

Signal right as you approach the roundabout in the right-hand lane.
Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the right-hand lane.
Maintain your signal as you exit in the right-hand lane.

Going Straight

Do not signal as you approach the roundabout and select the appropriate lane.
Stay in this lane until you need to exit the roundabout.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit from the lane you are in.

Turning Left

Signal left as you approach the roundabout in the left-hand lane.
Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the left-hand lane.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit in the left-hand lane.

Going full circle (U-turn)

Signal left as you approach the roundabout in the left-hand lane.
Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the left-hand lane.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit in the left-hand lane.

I wish more people would signal right when exiting, so you're not left waiting for no reason.

[kalvado]

I find the recommended signalling technique for Waterloo Region to be easy enough:
http://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/gettingAround/How-To-Use-A-Roundabout.asp#signaling

A roundabout is similar to an intersection with signals you need to signal the direction in which you are going to take.  When turning right, you need to signal right, when going straight you don't signal, and when turning left or doing a U-turn you signal left.  The only difference is that whenever you exit a roundabout you need to signal right to show you are exiting.  Below are step by step directions on how to signal:

Turning Right

Signal right as you approach the roundabout in the right-hand lane.
Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the right-hand lane.
Maintain your signal as you exit in the right-hand lane.

Going Straight

Do not signal as you approach the roundabout and select the appropriate lane.
Stay in this lane until you need to exit the roundabout.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit from the lane you are in.

Turning Left

Signal left as you approach the roundabout in the left-hand lane.
Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the left-hand lane.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit in the left-hand lane.

Going full circle (U-turn)

Signal left as you approach the roundabout in the left-hand lane.
Maintain your signal through the roundabout and stay in the left-hand lane.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit in the left-hand lane.

I wish more people would signal right when exiting, so you're not left waiting for no reason.

Few complications:
-right signals are not  readily visible to those down the line. Pure geometry.
-visibility through roundabout center is supposed to be limited.

[tradephoric]

I agree that's confusing.  I always signal when exiting so drivers waiting on the cross street know it's OK to start into the roundabout.  It also implies that, whenever you don't exit a roundabout, you should have your left signal on.  That seems counter-intuitive on the one hand (roundabouts have no left turns, so why a left signal?) but makes sense on the other hand (conventional signalling in the UK states you should signal right (our left) upon approaach when turning right.

If someone had their right turn on when exiting a roundabout i would assume they are about to make a right-turn into a driveway just past the roundabout.  In the aerial i posted above I'd assume you are about to pull into the gas station.  If somebody pulling out of the gas station wrongfully assumes you are about to pull into the gas station, that could lead to a crash. 

[lordsutch]

I think signaling is appropriate and should be encouraged (if not required), particularly on exits from the circular roadway; and, yes, you're turning right from the circular roadway when you exit a roundabout, even if there's no painted arrow saying that.

But given the serious lack of signaling discipline from American drivers in general, I doubt it'll ever be a widespread practice except in places that go out of their way to promote it like Carmel is planning to do.

[kalvado]

I think signaling is appropriate and should be encouraged (if not required), particularly on exits from the circular roadway; and, yes, you're turning right from the circular roadway when you exit a roundabout, even if there's no painted arrow saying that.

What if I am going straight to exit roundabout? And that seem a more common design approach - you barely need to move steering wheel to exit, you need to keep it turned to stay on circular path.

[chays]

I'm thinking that roundabouts will not be a better solution until we are a completely self-driving-car society.  Too much room for human error.

[jeffandnicole]

I'm thinking that roundabouts will not be a better solution until we are a completely self-driving-car society.  Too much room for human error.

From the mid 1960's to early 1980's there were virtually 0 roundabouts in the US...and we had over 50,000 traffic deaths nearly every year during that era.  Today there's around 100 traffic deaths per day, and almost none occur in roundabouts.

I don't think roundabouts are really the problem here.

[jakeroot]

Rather than citing UK recommendations, it might be better to see what Australia/NZ recommend, since their roundabouts are constructed with very similar standards and markings (heavy use of turbo markings, etc), and also use left/right/straight arrows leading up to the roundabout.

Since both drive on the left, I've changed the verbiage so that it can be comprehended quicker:

If you are going 'straight' through a roundabout:

- don't signal as you come up to the roundabout
- signal (right) as you pass the exit before the one you wish to take. At some small roundabouts it may not be possible to give three seconds warning, but it is courteous to give as much indication as you can.

https://goo.gl/YmYGfF

Going straight ahead
...
You must indicate a (right) turn just before you exit unless it is not practical to do so.

https://goo.gl/wf2clW

[lordsutch]

I think signaling is appropriate and should be encouraged (if not required), particularly on exits from the circular roadway; and, yes, you're turning right from the circular roadway when you exit a roundabout, even if there's no painted arrow saying that.

What if I am going straight to exit roundabout? And that seem a more common design approach - you barely need to move steering wheel to exit, you need to keep it turned to stay on circular path.

This is the "going straight" instruction from Waterloo, which is consistent with UK/continental European practice:

Going Straight

Do not signal as you approach the roundabout and select the appropriate lane.
Stay in this lane until you need to exit the roundabout.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit from the lane you are in.

As for whether "moving the steering wheel" matters, you barely have to move a steering wheel to change lanes or get on an exit ramp, yet you're expected to signal in that circumstance too.

[kalvado]

I think signaling is appropriate and should be encouraged (if not required), particularly on exits from the circular roadway; and, yes, you're turning right from the circular roadway when you exit a roundabout, even if there's no painted arrow saying that.

What if I am going straight to exit roundabout? And that seem a more common design approach - you barely need to move steering wheel to exit, you need to keep it turned to stay on circular path.

This is the "going straight" instruction from Waterloo, which is consistent with UK/continental European practice:

Going Straight

Do not signal as you approach the roundabout and select the appropriate lane.
Stay in this lane until you need to exit the roundabout.
Signal right prior to your exit, and exit from the lane you are in.

As for whether "moving the steering wheel" matters, you barely have to move a steering wheel to change lanes or get on an exit ramp, yet you're expected to signal in that circumstance too.

It is actually a bit difficult to apply plain road logic to roundabouts since very few roads have enough curvature to cause questions.  But if talking about exit - what is the move you indicate with a blinker? You can blink to move to an exit lane, or blink negotiating actual curvature at gore point. Exit I often take has a fairly long exit-only lane - and once I am in that lane I turn off my blinkers and just follow the lane.
On a same token - modern roundabouts often have dedicated "this exit only" lanes...

[english si]

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."

Joe Gustafson is a menace who should be tried for gross misconduct, and perhaps even vehicular manslaughter by proxy. He's the main reason this thread is credible. Go gunning for him, rather than the Mayor of Carmel, who gets it.

By making something that is typically fairly unfamiliar to US drivers even more confusing by demanding that you shouldn't inform other drivers of your intentions, nor be informed by other drivers of what they will do, Gustafson is wilfully creating danger on the roads and encouraging careless driving.

Almost all near misses and crashes on UK roundabouts are created by people not realising a vehicle is coming round the circulatory carriageway. Signal discipline is often poor, but at least we know we should signal, rather than actively being told by muppets to not signal intent.

[kalvado]

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."

Joe Gustafson is a menace who should be tried for gross misconduct, and perhaps even vehicular manslaughter by proxy. He's the main reason this thread is credible. Go gunning for him, rather than the Mayor of Carmel, who gets it.

By making something that is typically fairly unfamiliar to US drivers even more confusing by demanding that you shouldn't inform other drivers of your intentions, nor be informed by other drivers of what they will do, Gustafson is wilfully creating danger on the roads and encouraging careless driving.

Almost all near misses and crashes on UK roundabouts are created by people not realising a vehicle is coming round the circulatory carriageway. Signal discipline is often poor, but at least we know we should signal, rather than actively being told by muppets to not signal intent.

And it looks like we're talking about somewhat different things here. It was mentioned that UK has somewhat different design.
So, if you don't mind - can you show some exemplary UK roundabout on a map? Not biggest and greatest, but regular ones with best possible design from your perspective?.

[english si]

While lordsutch's point about Oceanian roundabouts being more like US ones than British ones is a good one - though these rules don't disagree with the NZ or NSW ones posted above wrt straight on traffic (and I doubt they will much at all with the whole lot) - lets refresh on the rules of the second-lowest (half the rate of the US, despite being infested with roundabouts) road fatalities per distance stats.

Rule 184
On approaching a roundabout take notice and act on all the information available to you, including traffic signs, traffic lights and lane markings which direct you into the correct lane. You should

• use Mirrors — Signal — Manoeuvre at all stages
  decide as early as possible which exit you need to take
• give an appropriate signal (see Rule 186, below). Time your signals so as not to confuse other road users
• get into the correct lane
• adjust your speed and position to fit in with traffic conditions
• be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you.

Rule 185
When reaching the roundabout you should

• give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
• check whether road markings allow you to enter the roundabout without giving way. If so, proceed, but still look to the right before joining
• watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all
• look forward before moving off to make sure traffic in front has moved off.

Rule 185: Follow the correct procedure at roundabouts

Rule 186
Signals and position. When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
• keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
• you should not normally need to signal on approach
• stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

Rule 187
In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to

• pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads
• traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit
• traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly
• motorcyclists
• cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout. Allow them to do so
• long vehicles (including those towing trailers). These might have to take a different course or straddle lanes either approaching or on the roundabout because of their length. Watch out for their signals.

I make that 32 times it says signal. The real roundabout experts are clear: Joe Gustafson is a dangerous quack who doesn't deserve to be considered a roundabout expert.

And it looks like we're talking about somewhat different things here. It was mentioned that UK has somewhat different design.
So, if you don't mind - can you show some exemplary UK roundabout on a map? Not biggest and greatest, but regular ones with best possible design from your perspective?.

The artists impression in the above picture is a perfectly typical UK roundabout design. This one picked at random might not be best possible design, but it is perfectly acceptable roundabout. Have another random one, this time a county council one. The speed limit on all the arms is 60mph (hence the different surface on approach). How about a smaller one - this one (again somewhat randomly picked) is more US in feel nowadays, with non-circulatory lane markings and such like (the aerial view and the more-recent streetview are different: the red area is gone) - but the same rules of signalling are involved.

None of these are exemplary, but they do they job. I'd argue that the key issue in the US isn't design or geometry or whatever, but driver miseducation: the Aus/NZ stuff that lordsutch brought in (and brought up that UK roundabouts are slightly different) still seem to follow the same rules of the road, despite their different design.

[kalvado]

None of these are exemplary, but they do they job. I'd argue that the key issue in the US isn't design or geometry or whatever, but driver miseducation: the Aus/NZ stuff that lordsutch brought in (and brought up that UK roundabouts are slightly different) still seem to follow the same rules of the road, despite their different design.

Well, one - and possibly most important in the context - difference I can see is that no lanes are marked within roundabout.
Just to compare: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Malta,+NY+12020/@42.9700608,-73.8040097,691m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89de3e54fcae9891:0x90c15e79d1ad5e9d!8m2!3d42.9854395!4d-73.7868236
Ones you have don't feature that spiral spool of lanes, and I would say it affects blinker strategy.
And the one you marked as a smaller one is the normal size over here, so although you say same rules apply - it would be interesting to see if same rules are actuallyfollowed.