Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'

[jakeroot]

The last time I went through a roundabout, it ran out of memory and froze up until the DOT came by and rebooted it.

Hmm. That's two silly posts in a row from you. I think some one needs to be rebooted.

[kphoger]

There are 200 red marbles and 7 blue marbles mixed up in a bag.  What is the probability that the first 3 marbles pulled out of the bag are blue. 

1 in 41,627.

Do you want me to show my work?

Nope that is the answer I got!  Now replace red marbles with traffic signals and blue marbles with roundabouts and it highlights the unlikelihood that Madison's top 3 crash locations would all be at roundabouts.  To put 1 in 41,627 into perspective... the odds of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime is 1 in 3,000.

And the crashes aren't even close.  The Mineral Point & Pleasant View roundabout experienced 47 crashes compared to just 16 crashes at the Darwin Rd & Packers Ave traffic signal (the most crash prone traffic signal in the city).  And as mentioned the Mineral Point & Pleasant View roundabout is surrounded by cornfields... not a location you would expect to see the most number of crashes in the city.

Common mistake for freshmen probability course.
What you're saying would be correct if roundabouts were randomly distributed around the city ("marbles" are all equal).
WIth all my disrespect to those designing roundabouts, I still doubt they choose locations by flipping a coin. Most likely intersections with pre-existing problem are addressed. So roundabout locations were not just simple regular marbles to begin with

This.  The math exercise was pointless.

If roundabouts are being installed to mitigate injury crashes or crashes in general, then it's more like....
Put 200 blue marbles and 7 red marbles in a tube, except the red marbles are three times as big.  Whittle the red marbles down so they're only twice the size, put them back in, and shake the tube for a few minutes.  What are the chances that the red marbles still end up on top?

And yes, I know it's not a perfect analogy.

[silverback1065]

how do you unsubscribe from a topic?  i don't give a flying fuck about this anymore, roundabouts are great.

[kalvado]

how do you unsubscribe from a topic?  i don't give a flying fuck about this anymore, roundabouts are great.

We will let you unsubscribe only once you are fully convinced that roundabouts are public enemy. No other way around!

[silverback1065]

how do you unsubscribe from a topic?  i don't give a flying fuck about this anymore, roundabouts are great.

We will let you unsubscribe only once you are fully convinced that roundabouts are public enemy. No other way around!

gonna be hard living in the roundabout capital of america 

[jakeroot]

how do you unsubscribe from a topic?  i don't give a flying fuck about this anymore, roundabouts are great.

Seriously though, I don't think there's a way. I've tried deleting all my posts from a topic, in such a way that it didn't appear as though I was connected to the topic anymore. But I continued to receive notifications on the 'new replies' page anyway.

Guess you're in for the long haul!

[kphoger]

how do you unsubscribe from a topic?  i don't give a flying fuck about this anymore, roundabouts are great.

Seriously though, I don't think there's a way. I've tried deleting all my posts from a topic, in such a way that it didn't appear as though I was connected to the topic anymore. But I continued to receive notifications on the 'new replies' page anyway.

Guess you're in for the long haul!

I remember when this came up last time, jakeroot.  Your question is here, and the pertinent reply links to here.  You tried as suggested, but then replied that it doesn't work if you've replied in the thread.

I've never done the whole notify or subscribe thing, so I'm a little clueless as to how this all works.  Does anyone know if there's a fix to this problem?

[jakeroot]

I remember when this came up last time, jakeroot.  Your question is here, and the pertinent reply links to here.  You tried as suggested, but then replied that it doesn't work if you've replied in the thread.

I've never done the whole notify or subscribe thing, so I'm a little clueless as to how this all works.  Does anyone know if there's a fix to this problem?

Funny. In that third link, my reply indicates that deleting your posts works, but it doesn't. Don't know why I said that.

I'm not sure anyone uses that "notify" feature. I know I don't, nor have I ever. If I was interested in a thread, I'd probably drop a line in it anyways, expunging the need for that feature anyways.

[kphoger]

Personally, I can barely stand my new phone notifying me whenever an email comes in, and I only get one or two emails a day.  I can't imagine wanting notifications every time a thread gets bumped.

[tradephoric]

This.  The math exercise was pointless.

If roundabouts are being installed to mitigate injury crashes or crashes in general, then it's more like....
Put 200 blue marbles and 7 red marbles in a tube, except the red marbles are three times as big.  Whittle the red marbles down so they're only twice the size, put them back in, and shake the tube for a few minutes.  What are the chances that the red marbles still end up on top?

And yes, I know it's not a perfect analogy.

That was really the point of the marble analogy.  At certain types of roundabouts you have beach-ball sized crash rates compared to golf-ball sized crash rates at traffic signals.  I'm not arguing that roundabouts and traffic signals have similar crash rates.  That is why it's not surprising that the top 3 crash rate intersections in Madison are at roundabouts (all 2x2s).  That's why it's not surprising that the most crash prone intersection in Michigan last year was at the 14 Mile and Orchard Lake roundabout (3x2).  The year before that the most crash prone intersection was at the M-5 and Pontiac Trail roundabout (3x2).  That roundabout was constructed over 6 years ago and drivers should have had plenty of time to get use to it by now.  It wouldn't shock me if the most crash prone intersection in the entire country was at a roundabout.  The fact that there are so many more traffic signals than roundabouts in the country doesn't matter.  When certain types of roundabouts (2x2s, 3x2s) have such high crash rates, they rise to the top of these crash lists (whether it be Madison, Michigan, or the entire USA). 

i don't give a flying fuck about this anymore, roundabouts are great.

Roundabouts are great at crashing cars into each other.

[7/8]

i don't give a flying fuck about this anymore, roundabouts are great.

Roundabouts are great at crashing cars into each other.

Personally, I'm willing to accept the risk for the improved traffic flow. The roundabout at Fountain St and Fairway Rd / Kossuth Rd in Cambridge, ON works great! I drive it twice a day, and despite both of these roads being pretty busy for two-lane roads, I rarely stop for more than 5 seconds. Meanwhile, heading east on Speedvale Ave through the traffic light at CR 32 near Guelph takes almost 5 minutes due to poor signal timing .

[Rothman]

I have been wondering if tradephoric has been keeping track of roundabouts that he has highlighted over time.

Pretty sure incidents drop off on a lot of them just like engineers say they do.

[kalvado]

I have been wondering if tradephoric has been keeping track of roundabouts that he has highlighted over time.

Pretty sure incidents drop off on a lot of them just like engineers say they do.

I'm afraid it is more difficult than it sounds. Full statistics is not easy to come across, and not all accidents get into the news.
Ones in Malta seems to come up once in a while in mostly negative light. Those are what, 10+ years old? No real improvement... 

[cjw2001]

Meanwhile roundabouts number 111 and 112 are opening in Carmel, with no mass carnage. 

[Rothman]

I have been wondering if tradephoric has been keeping track of roundabouts that he has highlighted over time.

Pretty sure incidents drop off on a lot of them just like engineers say they do.

I'm afraid it is more difficult than it sounds. Full statistics is not easy to come across, and not all accidents get into the news.
Ones in Malta seems to come up once in a while in mostly negative light. Those are what, 10+ years old? No real improvement...

Negative light, yes, but I haven't heard complaints about accidents -- just annoyance at having to navigate 5 of them within a half-mile.

Incidents have surely dropped off on the NY 85 roundabouts.

[kalvado]

I have been wondering if tradephoric has been keeping track of roundabouts that he has highlighted over time.

Pretty sure incidents drop off on a lot of them just like engineers say they do.

I'm afraid it is more difficult than it sounds. Full statistics is not easy to come across, and not all accidents get into the news.
Ones in Malta seems to come up once in a while in mostly negative light. Those are what, 10+ years old? No real improvement...

Negative light, yes, but I haven't heard complaints about accidents -- just annoyance at having to navigate 5 of them within a half-mile.

Incidents have surely dropped off on the NY 85 roundabouts.

http://m.timesunion.com/news/article/The-Capital-Region-s-most-dangerous-intersections-11281734.php
Whatever it worth. 

[Rothman]

I have been wondering if tradephoric has been keeping track of roundabouts that he has highlighted over time.

Pretty sure incidents drop off on a lot of them just like engineers say they do.

I'm afraid it is more difficult than it sounds. Full statistics is not easy to come across, and not all accidents get into the news.
Ones in Malta seems to come up once in a while in mostly negative light. Those are what, 10+ years old? No real improvement...

Negative light, yes, but I haven't heard complaints about accidents -- just annoyance at having to navigate 5 of them within a half-mile.

Incidents have surely dropped off on the NY 85 roundabouts.

http://m.timesunion.com/news/article/The-Capital-Region-s-most-dangerous-intersections-11281734.php
Whatever it worth.

Not much.  A report done by our local ambulance chasers that shows the Slingerlands Roundabouts on NY 85 not on the list, although the US 9/NY 67 one may be on it.

[tradephoric]

Hazmat accident involving a tractor-trailer in one of the roundabouts on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 in Malta, New York.  According to Police Route 67 Exit 12 was closed for 12 hours as 2000 gallons of liquefied asphalt additive was mopped up off the roadway.  Both the driver and 6 year old passenger were taken to Saratoga Hospital and later released. 

http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Northway-exit-reopens-hours-after-crash-in-Malta-11466679.php

[jakeroot]

I assume you will continue to report on all collisions that occur at roundabouts, because it can be assumed that the circular nature of the junction is the main cause?

[kalvado]

I have been wondering if tradephoric has been keeping track of roundabouts that he has highlighted over time.

Pretty sure incidents drop off on a lot of them just like engineers say they do.

I'm afraid it is more difficult than it sounds. Full statistics is not easy to come across, and not all accidents get into the news.
Ones in Malta seems to come up once in a while in mostly negative light. Those are what, 10+ years old? No real improvement...

Negative light, yes, but I haven't heard complaints about accidents -- just annoyance at having to navigate 5 of them within a half-mile.

Incidents have surely dropped off on the NY 85 roundabouts.

http://m.timesunion.com/news/article/The-Capital-Region-s-most-dangerous-intersections-11281734.php
Whatever it worth.

Not much.  A report done by our local ambulance chasers that shows the Slingerlands Roundabouts on NY 85 not on the list, although the US 9/NY 67 one may be on it.

Don't want to be political, but things are really similar to recent political standards... Goals  shift from aiming high  towards getting a badge of honor for not being the worst one.
OK, those roundabouts are no longer in bottom 1%, great! Next one would be in top 95%!

[tradephoric]

I assume you will continue to report on all collisions that occur at roundabouts, because it can be assumed that the circular nature of the junction is the main cause?

There were a string of posts about the Malta roundabout (not brought up by me i'll add) and someone had mentioned that they haven't heard complaints about accidents at them.  Three months ago a truck tips over, spills over 2000 gallons of liquefied asphalt additive, creates a hazmat situation that shuts the roundabout for 12 hours, and a 6-year old boy is transported to the hospital after he cuts his head open... and nobody is complaining about accidents?  This became an event for the town of Malta that day.

[Rothman]

I assume you will continue to report on all collisions that occur at roundabouts, because it can be assumed that the circular nature of the junction is the main cause?

There were a string of posts about the Malta roundabout (not brought up by me i'll add) and someone had mentioned that they haven't heard complaints about accidents at them.  Three months ago a truck tips over, spills over 2000 gallons of liquefied asphalt additive, creates a hazmat situation that shuts the roundabout for 12 hours, and a 6-year old boy is transported to the hospital after he cuts his head open... and nobody is complaining about accidents?  This became an event for the town of Malta that day.

So...one recent accident...and we are certain the roundabout is to blame.

[kalvado]

I assume you will continue to report on all collisions that occur at roundabouts, because it can be assumed that the circular nature of the junction is the main cause?

There were a string of posts about the Malta roundabout (not brought up by me i'll add) and someone had mentioned that they haven't heard complaints about accidents at them.  Three months ago a truck tips over, spills over 2000 gallons of liquefied asphalt additive, creates a hazmat situation that shuts the roundabout for 12 hours, and a 6-year old boy is transported to the hospital after he cuts his head open... and nobody is complaining about accidents?  This became an event for the town of Malta that day.

So...one recent accident.

One of top 5 accidents in a region for the year? Not a bad bet.
Granted, this is a freak one-time event (6 year old riding in a hazmat truck? WTF?) - but I didn't see statistics; and throughput - which is the advertised super-benefit - of those circles is not perfect. At least, town of Malta didn't allow GF to adjust shift times because some roundabouts are already overloaded. Some paths through secondary circles are plainly blocked during rush hour...

[tradephoric]

I assume you will continue to report on all collisions that occur at roundabouts, because it can be assumed that the circular nature of the junction is the main cause?

There were a string of posts about the Malta roundabout (not brought up by me i'll add) and someone had mentioned that they haven't heard complaints about accidents at them.  Three months ago a truck tips over, spills over 2000 gallons of liquefied asphalt additive, creates a hazmat situation that shuts the roundabout for 12 hours, and a 6-year old boy is transported to the hospital after he cuts his head open... and nobody is complaining about accidents?  This became an event for the town of Malta that day.

So...one recent accident...and we are certain the roundabout is to blame.

Here is another Malta roundabout melee from 2016.  According to Police a Mack dump truck failed to yield and drove over the center median and into a tractor-trailer headed south on Round Lake Road in the roundabout.  These roundabouts are causing a lot of excitement for the good people of Malta.

Police: Overweight truck caused Malta roundabout crash
http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Police-Overweight-truck-caused-Malta-roundabout-6871246.php#photo-9504846

[Rothman]

I assume you will continue to report on all collisions that occur at roundabouts, because it can be assumed that the circular nature of the junction is the main cause?

There were a string of posts about the Malta roundabout (not brought up by me i'll add) and someone had mentioned that they haven't heard complaints about accidents at them.  Three months ago a truck tips over, spills over 2000 gallons of liquefied asphalt additive, creates a hazmat situation that shuts the roundabout for 12 hours, and a 6-year old boy is transported to the hospital after he cuts his head open... and nobody is complaining about accidents?  This became an event for the town of Malta that day.

So...one recent accident...and we are certain the roundabout is to blame.

Here is another Malta roundabout melee from 2016.  According to Police a Mack dump truck failed to yield and drove over the center median and into a tractor-trailer headed south on Round Lake Road in the roundabout.  These roundabouts are causing a lot of excitement for the good people of Malta.

Police: Overweight truck caused Malta roundabout crash
http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Police-Overweight-truck-caused-Malta-roundabout-6871246.php#photo-9504846

That isn't the roundabout's fault.