Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'

[tradephoric]

The roundabout at Westfield and 96th isn't going away.  New artwork just installed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2KeQBtaPLM


Get over it.

That sculpture is a touching memorial to the people who have died at the 96th and Westfield roundabout in Carmel.  The three tall-stemmed, flower-like structures represent the three people who have been killed since the roundabout opened.  In each fatal accident the driver blew through the middle of the roundabout and struck a retaining wall in the central island.  The cost of the statue, its base and installation was reported to cost $352,900.  With all that money spent, that deadly wall still remains... of course now they need to protect the memorial sculpture from getting hit.

[cjw2001]

The wall isn't deadly.   It doesn't jump out in front of people.  It's well off the roadway.   The people of Carmel are not in deathly fear of driving around this roundabout.   

[jakeroot]

The wall isn't deadly.   It doesn't jump out in front of people.  It's well off the roadway.   The people of Carmel are not in deathly fear of driving around this roundabout.

But, consider for a moment drivers who unintentionally drive through the middle. Walls and sculptures exacerbate these crashes. No reason to make the intersection more dangerous. I'm sure the people of Carmel would be just as happy with a big garden or decorative bush display.

[Tarkus]

Speaking of 96th, Indianapolis sued Carmel to stop the latter from building more roundabouts on that stretch of road.  Indianapolis won.

[jeffandnicole]

Speaking of 96th, Indianapolis sued Carmel to stop the latter from building more roundabouts on that stretch of road.  Indianapolis won.

they didn't. every roundabout will be built except one (the one at randall drive).  also, the driver of the car that drove through that roundabout at 96th and westfield was drunk. 

Not to mention the lawsuit, as mentioned in the paper, had nothing to do with safety concerns or being crash prone. 

Although Brainard thinks the roundabouts will ease traffic, Scales has said she thinks the area is not congested enough to warrant roundabouts. She also is concerned they will hurt area businesses, particularly car dealerships along the corridor.

[silverback1065]

Speaking of 96th, Indianapolis sued Carmel to stop the latter from building more roundabouts on that stretch of road.  Indianapolis won.

They didn't. Every roundabout will be built except one (the one at Randall Drive).  This was recently agreed upon by both city counsels.  Construction will happen next year.
Indy didn't care except for the counselwoman who has no idea what she's talking about in her reasons in opposing them.  She was easily overruled by a counsel vote earlier this year.  She needs to go back to focusing on the streets in terrible condition in her district anyway.  One other thing that was part of the agreement was a study on adding Hawk signals to the Gray Road roundabout, and paving some roads in Indy that will be affected by the detours.  Also, the driver of the car that drove through that roundabout at 96th and Westfield was drunk.

[silverback1065]

The roundabout at Westfield and 96th isn't going away.  New artwork just installed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2KeQBtaPLM


Get over it.

That sculpture is a touching memorial to the people who have died at the 96th and Westfield roundabout in Carmel.  The three tall-stemmed, flower-like structures represent the three people who have been killed since the roundabout opened.  In each fatal accident the driver blew through the middle of the roundabout and struck a retaining wall in the central island.  The cost of the statue, its base and installation was reported to cost $352,900.  With all that money spent, that deadly wall still remains... of course now they need to protect the memorial sculpture from getting hit.

None of the roundabouts are going away, and when it's all said and done, Carmel will have around 7 signals in the city, 6 of which are INDOT signals that they can't change, and never will be able to, since they're US highways.  And even the one remaining city owned signal at main and rangeline is being discussed to be turned into a roundabout.  It would be a shame to see that one go, it was the first in the state, and one of the first in the US, and i dont think a roundabout would work there anyway, it's too small an area for an effective one to be built. 

[jeffandnicole]

none of the roundabouts are going away, and when it's all said and done, Carmel will have around 7 signals in the city, 6 of which are INDOT signals that they can't change, and never will be able to, since they're US highways. 

How come?  Unless there's something specific to Indy, there's nothing that prevents a US Highway from going through a roundabout.

[silverback1065]

none of the roundabouts are going away, and when it's all said and done, Carmel will have around 7 signals in the city, 6 of which are INDOT signals that they can't change, and never will be able to, since they're US highways. 

How come?  Unless there's something specific to Indy, there's nothing that prevents a US Highway from going through a roundabout.

Because INDOT won't do it.  It's not impossible on 421, but it wouldn't happen any time soon, state has more important things to do in other areas.  The one on 31 and 96th will never change, would require a teardrop interchange, and i dont see them wanting to spend the money.  O and i forgot about the 2 signals at 465 and us 31.  that's just the way i see it though

[kphoger]

none of the roundabouts are going away, and when it's all said and done, Carmel will have around 7 signals in the city, 6 of which are INDOT signals that they can't change, and never will be able to, since they're US highways. 

How come?  Unless there's something specific to Indy, there's nothing that prevents a US Highway from going through a roundabout.

I will also mention that roundabouts on US Routes have to go through a more stringent design process than roundabouts on local roads.  This, for example, is why US-65 Business through Branson (MO) was taken over by the city of Branson prior to the construction of the five-legged Skaggs roundabout:  the hill coming south down US-65 Business was too steep for a roundabout to be allowed.  So the city took over the road, renamed it Branson Landing Blvd, and built the roundabout anyway.

[silverback1065]

none of the roundabouts are going away, and when it's all said and done, Carmel will have around 7 signals in the city, 6 of which are INDOT signals that they can't change, and never will be able to, since they're US highways. 

How come?  Unless there's something specific to Indy, there's nothing that prevents a US Highway from going through a roundabout.

I will also mention that roundabouts on US Routes have to go through a more stringent design process than roundabouts on local roads.  This, for example, is why US-65 Business through Branson (MO) was taken over by the city of Branson prior to the construction of the five-legged Skaggs roundabout:  the hill coming south down US-65 Business was too steep for a roundabout to be allowed.  So the city took over the road, renamed it Branson Landing Blvd, and built the roundabout anyway.

geeze even for a business route?  interesting.

[tradephoric]

Were there any signalized intersection in Carmel that had 3 fatalities over a 10 year period before the roundabout craze began?  I can't speak for Carmel, but according to SEMCOG there were 3 fatalities at the top 20 most crash prone intersections in SE Michigan between 2007 and 2016.  It's just hard to believe that the top 20 most crash prone intersections in a region of 4.3 million people would have as many fatalities as some innocuous single-lane roundabout in Carmel.  If there wasn't a retaining wall in the middle of the 96th and Westfield roundabout, i believe the roundabout would be much safer and we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Here are SEMCOG's high frequency crash locations:


http://semcog.org/High-Frequency-Crash-Locations

[jakeroot]

Speaking of 96th, Indianapolis sued Carmel to stop the latter from building more roundabouts on that stretch of road.  Indianapolis won.

Councillor Scales' reasons against building the roundabout seem really shallow:

Although Brainard thinks the roundabouts will ease traffic, Scales has said she thinks the area is not congested enough to warrant roundabouts. She also is concerned they will hurt area businesses, particularly car dealerships along the corridor.

What I want to know is what Scales' would prefer. Roundabouts work better in low- to mid-trafficked areas than signals (which are better along busy corridors), plus, I don't see how roundabouts, instead of signals, would have any effect on businesses. Roundabouts require more ROW at intersections, but from what I can tell, there's plenty of room along the corridor to allow for roundabouts without taking any more than a few parking spots away from the corner-based businesses.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

MnDOT releases a detailed study claiming massive decreases in both fatal and non-fatal incidents at intersections where roundabouts have been installed (this includes both state and non-state-built projects).

I won't comment further since I figure people will cherry-pick what they want out of the PDF.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/safety/docs/roundaboutstudy.pdf

[tradephoric]

MnDOT releases a detailed study claiming massive decreases in both fatal and non-fatal incidents at intersections where roundabouts have been installed (this includes both state and non-state-built projects).

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/safety/docs/roundaboutstudy.pdf

There were 6 full dual-lane roundabouts analyzed in that Minnesota study (ie. 2x2 roundabouts).  Here is a table of the dual-lane roundabouts with before construction and after construction crash data based on crash severity:



If we use FHWA's comprehensive crash costs by injury severity level to perform a cost/benefit analysis, we see that these dual-lane Minnesota roundabouts increased crash costs by $1,664,300.  Even though there were 3 less A-level crashes at the roundabouts, there were 7 more C-level crashes and a whopping 270 more PDO crashes.

BEFORE ROUNDABOUT CRASH COSTS = $4,882,600
Fatality (K)           0 X $4,008,900 = $0
Disabling Injury (A)   3 X  $216,000 = $648,000
Evident Injury (B)   15 X $79,000 = $1,185,000
Possible Injury (C)   46 X $44,900 = $2,065,400
PDO (O)          133 X $7,400 =  $984,200

AFTER ROUNDABOUT CRASH COSTS = $6,546,900
Fatality (K)           0 X $4,008,900 = $0
Disabling Injury (A)   0 X  $216,000 = $0
Evident Injury (B)   15 X $79,000 = $1,185,000
Possible Injury (C)   53 X $44,900 = $2,379,700
PDO (O)          403 X $7,400 =  $2,982,200

[tradephoric]

I won't comment further since I figure people will cherry-pick what they want out of the PDF.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/safety/docs/roundaboutstudy.pdf

I'm just happy they broke down the results by single lane, unbalanced multi-lane, and full multi-lane.  This is one of the first studies i have seen that distinguishes 2x2 multi-lane roundabouts from unbalanced 2x1 roundabouts. 

[silverback1065]

She wanted to do nothing, an Indianapolis staple. Her opposition was so obviously that she didn't like roundabouts.  Indy was paying the massive price of $0 for the project and she lied about business owners being against it, they were for it.

[cjw2001]

More new roundabout art added on Hazel Dell.

[jakeroot]

She wanted to do nothing, an Indianapolis staple. Her opposition was so obviously that she didn't like roundabouts.  Indy was paying the massive price of $0 for the project and she lied about business owners being against it, they were for it.

Her only real point is that they're building, without a permit, within the Indianapolis city limits. That should be an easy fix (hopefully a settlement will be reached as Mr Brainard hopes). I don't see why she has to make a big deal about it.

More new roundabout art added on Hazel Dell.

Bloody painful if you hit those things.

[silverback1065]

She wanted to do nothing, an Indianapolis staple. Her opposition was so obviously that she didn't like roundabouts.  Indy was paying the massive price of $0 for the project and she lied about business owners being against it, they were for it.

Her only real point is that they're building, without a permit, within the Indianapolis city limits. That should be an easy fix (hopefully a settlement will be reached as Mr Brainard hopes). I don't see why she has to make a big deal about it.

More new roundabout art added on Hazel Dell.

Bloody painful if you hit those things.

they have resolved this, i need to find the link, but as i said before they will build all but one, it was recently approved by both parties.  i still think the property angle is a weak excuse to oppose it. but it was only mildly successful.

[kphoger]

I won't comment further since I figure people will cherry-pick what they want out of the PDF.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/safety/docs/roundaboutstudy.pdf

I'm just happy they broke down the results by single lane, unbalanced multi-lane, and full multi-lane.  This is one of the first studies i have seen that distinguishes 2x2 multi-lane roundabouts from unbalanced 2x1 roundabouts. 

Seriously.  This study seems to be exactly what you've been calling for since dozens of pages ago.

[kalvado]

I won't comment further since I figure people will cherry-pick what they want out of the PDF.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/safety/docs/roundaboutstudy.pdf

I'm just happy they broke down the results by single lane, unbalanced multi-lane, and full multi-lane.  This is one of the first studies i have seen that distinguishes 2x2 multi-lane roundabouts from unbalanced 2x1 roundabouts. 

Seriously.  This study seems to be exactly what you've been calling for since dozens of pages ago.

ANd results are quite similar to what Trade was saying... Maybe someone from MinnDOT read this thread?

[tradephoric]

I won't comment further since I figure people will cherry-pick what they want out of the PDF.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/safety/docs/roundaboutstudy.pdf

I'm just happy they broke down the results by single lane, unbalanced multi-lane, and full multi-lane.  This is one of the first studies i have seen that distinguishes 2x2 multi-lane roundabouts from unbalanced 2x1 roundabouts. 

Seriously.  This study seems to be exactly what you've been calling for since dozens of pages ago.

ANd results are quite similar to what Trade was saying... Maybe someone from MinnDOT read this thread?

Yes some vindication.  No longer are all multi-lane roundabouts being lumped together and analyzed as if they will perform equally.  In past studies the unbalanced multi-lane roundabouts would mask just how poorly these full dual-lane roundabouts were performing in terms of crash rates.    Now anybody with an irrational exuberance for roundabouts must consider the results of the MnDOT study.  They should listen to John Hourdos and other roundabout experts who realize that these complex multi-lane roundabouts aren't working out so well.  The full dual-lane roundabouts in the MnDOT study saw a 212.5% increase in PDO crashes and a 6.3% increase in total injury crashes (even as traffic volumes decreased by 3%).  The only silver lining is that the most serious A-type crash was reduced.  But the fact remains total injury crashes went up at these Minnesota roundabouts.  For as long as we have been told that roundabouts reduce injury crashes, the research may suggest otherwise when the focus is on these complex full dual-lane roundabouts. 

[jakeroot]

Anyone know where this roundabout is? I see the photo used all the time as a stock photo, but I can't seem to find the original image with any information:

[tradephoric]

Video of an RV blowing through the middle of a roundabout in Worthington Minnesota.  At least their wasn't a retaining wall in the central island for the driver to hit.  Nobody came to a "dead" stop, like the fate of several people at the 96th and Westfield roundabout in Carmel.  Three people have died at that Carmel roundabout already, that can be considered several right?  Luckily there wasn't a family in an RV to add to the 96th and Westfield roundabout death list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4oltdv0i9w