AARoads Forum

I know I'm not alone in getting scam operations calling me every so often.  In fact, it's pretty common that I get more than one call from these guys per day.  Lately, it's been (presumably) callers from India spoofing their phone number so it looks like a local number.  These are obviously scammers, and it's been my experience that most of the "operators" know full well they're working for a scam operation.  Only once or twice has a scam "operator" given any indication that he thought he was working for a legit company.

So what do you do when you get these calls?

I do one of several things.  Sometimes I answer and then go berserk with loud nonsense noises.  They actually usually stay on the line and listen to that for a while.  Once, I had a guy call me back and immediately start doing the same thing back to me.  It was great fun.  If I'm in the car, I'll often turn up the radio really loud to see if they want to listen along for a while, but they never do.  Once, I had a five-minute-long conversation about pooping with the guy on the other end.  If I'm at a computer when the call comes in, my latest favorite is to answer their questions with lines from Star Trek episode transcripts; at work, I keep one internet tab open with a list of transcripts for just this purpose.  This is more fun than my previous habit of reciting pop song lyrics or portions of the Gettysburg Address,  but it is more likely to result in my being cussed at.

It's more fun to waste their time and energy.  The more time I waste of theirs, the less time they have to scam someone gullible.

I don't think pranking the schmoe sitting in the call center does much to the scammers.  I just block the number.

If I don't recognize the number, I don't answer.

Wasting these people's time is the only way to harm them.  Depending on my mood, I will either I will talk about sex acts in graphic detail, respond in a faux Arabic like language, or tell Alexa to play Ralph Stanley songs.  If they claim to be from the IRS or other government (the government will NEVER call you in the first instance about a debt) I give them the correct address of the United States Court House and the name and number of the US Magistrate and tell them a warrant has been issued for their arrest and they need to contact the judge before noon tomorrow to arrange bail.

A friend and I used to prank call tech support scam numbers when we were younger and we'd waste hours of their time in virtual machines. It gets to the point where they begin to angrily speak Hindi into the microphone, or curse you out in emotionless, robotic English. Imagine someone with a heavy Indian accent, in a defeated, expressionless voice, insulting you with random profanities. They would start to breathe heavily when you got to the screen when you put in credit card info and they'd get really angry when you didn't put it in.


It was pretty funny. Eventually we ended up getting our phone number blacklisted. I think it still is to this day.

All the options in the poll assume you know they're a scammer. What if you usually fall for it? :-P

Quote from: webny99 on March 13, 2019, 03:07:46 PM
All the options in the poll assume you know they're a scammer. What if you usually fall for it? :-P

Hello, this is the Windows Maintenance Department calling about your computer.

Quote from: Big John on March 13, 2019, 02:19:19 PM
If I don't recognize the number, I don't answer.

Same here, which is why I chose "other." If it's important, they'll leave a message.

Quote from: webny99 on March 13, 2019, 03:07:46 PM
All the options in the poll assume you know they're a scammer. What if you usually fall for it? :-P

"Other"

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Quote from: hbelkins on March 13, 2019, 04:25:46 PM

Quote from: Big John on March 13, 2019, 02:19:19 PM
If I don't recognize the number, I don't answer.

Same here, which is why I chose "other." If it's important, they'll leave a message.

What I dislike about doing that is that I almost always end up with a voicemail, which I still have to go into and delete.

Quote from: Big John on March 13, 2019, 02:19:19 PM
If I don't recognize the number, I don't answer.

Same here, and that includes numbers purporting to be in the same exchange as mine.

At home we have a robocall-blocking service (Nomorobo). It's not perfect, but it screens out a heck of a lot of calls. I'm considering subscribing to it on my mobile phone (it's free for home but not for mobile) because the call-screening app I use (Hiya, recommended by a friend) isn't very effective.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 13, 2019, 04:48:02 PM

Quote from: Big John on March 13, 2019, 02:19:19 PM
If I don't recognize the number, I don't answer.

Same here, and that includes numbers purporting to be in the same exchange as mine.

That's my biggest cue it's a scammer, and thus it's my biggest cue that I do want to answer and have some fun.  I think I only know one other person with the same exchange as my cell phone, and that's my wife.

I answer, than I say something stupid for fun, than I hang up.

If they say something at the beginning like "Can you hear me OK?", don't answer "Yes".  (They can use that against you later, by saying you agreed to purchase something.)  Instead, try something evasive like "That's for me to know, and you to find out."  Chances are, it will automatically disconnect. 

Tom Mabe.

Look him up if you don't who he is.

Hard to have fun with a spam call when it's always a recording.

We have a landline phone and use an answering machine to screen incoming calls.  I also have a cell phone and do not share the number with the intent that it be used for voice calls.  I do not receive calls often--probably just once a week on average, if that much--and probably 90% of them are scammers or wrong numbers, with the remaining 10% being pocket dialing from people I text with regularly.

I do not think I would be especially vulnerable to telephone scams even if I could hear.  I do feel, however, that I am vulnerable to misbehavior from legitimate businesses in regard to transactions that require payment of a rebate or refund in arrears.  For example, last October Booking.com sent me (via snail mail) a come-on promising $20 off a booking valued at over $70 if I booked by such and such a date at a special URL included in the letter.  When I typed in the URL, it redirected to the Booking.com website.  I did make a booking (staying in the $50/night category rather than counting my chickens before they hatched) and am still awaiting the $20 rebate.  And I am still waiting for Amazon.com to refund me the cost of an order I made that they could not deliver because I gave them a General Delivery address and they opted to ship via UPS.  I am increasingly convinced it is a deliberate, intentional strategy for businesses to take the customer's money, sit on it when they are not entitled to it, and wait for the customer to complain.

Quote from: Brandon on March 13, 2019, 03:09:03 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 13, 2019, 03:07:46 PM
All the options in the poll assume you know they're a scammer. What if you usually fall for it? :-P

Hello, this is the Windows Maintenance Department calling about your computer.

Uh, yes, good day sir, how can I download more RAM?

---

Nowadays, I don't really get scam calls that often. When I was younger and was still using a landline (my parents were laggards to the smartphone party), I would hang up every number that I didn't recognize. Sadly, I miss those days, because nowadays I actually wish I'd get a scam call to mess with people. Unless it's a recording (you can tell if the "voice" has an American accent on the other end).

Kinda odd how you can be nostalgic for something utterly annoying.

If it's a number I do not recognize, I will usually not answer. John Oliver has been ridiculing the FCC for not doing anything to stop the increase in robocalls since 2016.

I've heard of people who keep a referee whistle near the phone ..........

Other:  If I don't know you, voicemail or you didn't call.

I just reject any and all calls from numbers with the same area code and exchange as me that isn't someone in my contacts.

Occasionally I'll get some robocall that's from somewhere else entirely - those I'll end up answering, since a call from some non-nearby area code is usually work-related. But as soon as it reveals itself to be a robocall I just immediately hang up.

I've never had any interaction with a human attempting to scam me via phone so if they're calling me, they're doing it with one of those spoofed numbers that I don't answer.


I have no desire to play games with a telemarketer/scammer or otherwise try and annoy them. They are beneath me and not worth my attention.

Many get picked up by Nomorobo.  Ones that get through, I usually ignore, but once in a while answer and see how long I can keep them on the phone to waste their time, being careful not to agree to anything.  As soon as I get into a question like "are you calling from my town since this looks like a local number" they usually hang right up.  I've had a few that I'm 99% sure were actual people rather than a computer responding, where any answer I gave that wasn't the one they wanted to hear, I'd get variations on "I didn't catch that", "could you repeat that", etc.  Other times I see how long it takes them to get frustrated when I ask specifically which car that I own is eligible for their extended warranty, or see if they can tell me even what brand of credit card they think I have, or who told them that I suffer from chronic pain (I don't) or need a fancy knee brace (I don't).

Quote from: Jim on March 13, 2019, 09:09:12 PM
Other times I see how long it takes them to get frustrated when I ask specifically which car that I own is eligible for their extended warranty, or see if they can tell me even what brand of credit card they think I have,

These are my favorite games to play.  I tell them I own two vehicles and I hadn't realized one of them had a warranty about to expire, but that it concerns me and I'd like to rectify that issue.  If only they can tell me which vehicle it is that has its warranty running out, then we'll be in business.  One lady chuckled and said, 'I can't tell you that!'  For the record, I've never owned a vehicle with a warranty, other than a six-month transaxle-only warranty on a car we bought with 147,000 miles on the odometer.

When it's about credit card balance, I pretend to have a slight mental handicap:  pauses, quiet speech, simple words, repeating myself.  Basically, I want to come across as gullible to keep them on the phone, but also difficult to get details from.  When they ask me which credit card has the largest balance, I tell them 'I think it's the blue one,' and then I see where it goes from there.

I have Nomorobo for my landline, and YouMail for my cell.  With YouMail, it plays an out of service message for the known robocaller.  The worst lately have been these one ring calls that come across as No Caller ID  but leave a message in your voicemail telling you how to make money in what I'm sure is some pyramid or Ponzi scheme.  I've had 12 different numbers with this same scheme, and if it weren't for YouMail, my voicemail box would be full of these.  There was one chimney cleaning company that used to call 3 times a day every day before I had the blocking apps.  I used to pick up and make either a loud puking sound, answer "Fraud Department" , or once I even ad libbed a message telling them they've reached a bestiality  dating site.  I went so far as to leave them a 1 Star review on Yelp.

I wish there were a way to use wildcards to block phone number patterns. I regularly get calls on my mobile phone from various area codes and various exchanges where the last four digits are always and invariably -9003. It's obviously an autodialler and a recorded message because I never answer, they always leave a voicemail, and it's always the same female voice excitedly telling me I'm now eligible for 0% interest on all my credit cards. Exact same thing every time. I'd love to be able to use a *.*-type thing to block all numbers from all area codes and exchanges that end in -9003, but I don't know of any way to do that nor of any app that allows it.

There should be a way to block phone numbers that don't exist. I was called by one that I couldn't answer immediately, and I didn't know if it was a real call or not. I called back, and the number didn't exist.

Another time, the exchange began with 0.

I simply don't answer if I don't recognize the number.

I used not to answer if I don't recognize the number. Now I do, and if they don't reply back in 2 seconds (which is often the case), I disconnect.

Spoofing of same-exchange cell numbers is getting to be a real problem around here. The state legislature just passed a law outlawing those calls, but I don't know how they will enforce it. And putting your number on a state or national no-call list is pretty much a waste of effort.

I failed to answer a 606-560 number on my personal cell the other day. Turns out it was my doctor, and he did leave a message.

It's more problematic for my work cell, however. I feel compelled to answer any calls from a 606-207 number. It could be someone calling to report a road closure or other situation that needs to be communicated to the public. It's especially frustrating when I answer it, only to hear a recording about my credit card account. I don't have any credit cards associated with my work number, so I know it's a scam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KupjY1oF1I


Post the Phone call on youtube.

If I'm home by myself, I put in earplugs and blast an air horn right into the phone.  Trying to make people regret working for companies that make these calls.

This was an unfortunate issue from years ago: I had a lease on a Honda Ridgeline, which I turned in after the lease period.  I forget how I learned the next part, but...The car was resold to someone (a woman), ironically with the same initials as me.  However, my phone number remained connected with the vehicle.  I now get scam calls (and apparently, collection agency calls) for her, since my phone number got connected with her name.  Of the calls I actually answer, most of them are asking for her, not me.

Apparently she doesn't live too far from me.  When I checked out her Facebook profile, she's actually FB friends with a coworker, so I'll have to check his connection with her!

I have to think that the "same exchange spoof"  routine is quickly losing traction, especially for the under-60 crowd. As more people ditch landlines in favor of having a cell phone only, the likelihood that you'll receive legitimate calls from your own exchange continues to diminish.

Growing up in a small city, almost everyone I might be in contact with locally–my relatives, friends, school, doctors office, local businesses, etc.–all had numbers beginning with 321, 322, or 323. And if someone told you that their phone number was 368-something, you knew right away that they lived in the next town over. So if I had caller ID back then, I'd have been seeing these exchanges constantly.

When I got my first cell phone around 2000, it was assigned a number under a new exchange that apparently was set up just for mobile lines. My local high school friends all had cell phones with exchanges different from mine depending on which carrier they had, whether they bought their phone in town or at the local mall, and so on. By this point, the exchanges had become almost meaningless.

Almost 20 years later, I still have the same cell phone number, and when I see an incoming call from the same exchange, I'm 99% certain it's a scam call. And since I have a non-local number, I know that local Philadelphia-area calls are quite possibly legitimate.

Quote from: 1 on March 14, 2019, 07:45:17 AM
There should be a way to block phone numbers that don't exist.

But doesn't Skype use phony number for their phone calls?  I know I've received Skype calls on my cell phone that came up as some weird 5-digit number on my caller ID.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 14, 2019, 11:39:28 AM
Spoofing of same-exchange cell numbers is getting to be a real problem around here. The state legislature just passed a law outlawing those calls, but I don't know how they will enforce it. And putting your number on a state or national no-call list is pretty much a waste of effort.

It also doesn't help me much, as nearly all of my scam callers are quite obviously calling me from India.

Quote from: briantroutman on March 14, 2019, 02:01:34 PM
I have to think that the "same exchange spoof"  routine is quickly losing traction, especially for the under-60 crowd. As more people ditch landlines in favor of having a cell phone only, the likelihood that you'll receive legitimate calls from your own exchange continues to diminish.

Phone numbers are allocated to phone companies and also traded between phone companies in large blocks, meaning that–even in the age of cell phones–the same exchange as yours is still likely to be in your area.  For example, I have a 316-640- number, and the vast majority of those will be cell phones in the Wichita area because they were allocated to my cell phone company in one big block.  I happen to only know one other person with a 316-640- number, but it's still somewhat likely that there's someone whose number I don't know who has the same exchange as mine.

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2019, 02:14:51 PM
...even in the age of cell phones–the same exchange as yours is still likely to be in your area.

I don't deny that that there's still correlation between geography and telephone exchanges, but what I'm getting at is that for most people, there's far less correlation between your phone exchange and that of the people and businesses you're in touch with by phone on a regular basis.

As mentioned, in my town growing up, nearly every local person, business, and institution with which I had telephone contact was in one of three exchanges–all of which had the same first two digits. According to a quick search, it appears there are now 32 exchanges nominally assigned to the city. In the same time, the population of that city has declined by 5,000 people or about 15%, and the county's population (the de facto metro area) has declined by a couple of percent. So a stagnant to declining pool of people is now spread over more than ten times as many exchanges. And that's before you start to account for factors like transplants who've kept a cell number from another area code or locals who bought a cell phone near where they work, which might be 30 miles away.

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2019, 02:14:51 PM
But doesn't Skype use phony number for their phone calls?  I know I've received Skype calls on my cell phone that came up as some weird 5-digit number on my caller ID.

Skype allows you to "buy"  a phone number for nearly any geographic area. When I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, I bought a 415 number because I was tired of getting funny looks when I gave clients and business associates an out-of-area number. Your Skype number can be used to both send and receive calls from Skype, and calls can also be forwarded to another telephone number (like your cell phone).

If you don't buy a Skype number, I believe there's a way you can set it to show another phone number, but I'm pretty sure that you have to verify the number by allowing Skype to call it and then entering in a code when prompted.

In the absence of either of the above, what shows on caller ID when calling from Skype has varied over the years. Around 2010, I recall Skype calls showing up as coming from numbers in the 661 area code, which is Kern County, CA/Bakersfield area. Some time after that, I recall Skype calls coming from either five-digit numbers or oddly long 15-ish digit strings of numbers. And more recently, I think I've seen them come through as "Unknown" .

But the bottom line regarding called ID–it seems to have been set up assuming that one benevolent corporation (i.e. AT&T) would always hold the keys to America's tightly locked-down telephone system. As such, I believe that caller ID is set up to be a trusting system: Your phone provider voluntarily provides a phone number to the recipient's phone provider, and they simply accept that number as accurate because...why would a member of the Bell System provide false information? The setup didn't account for the phone network rapidly becoming a "Wild West"  of VoIP providers, Internet telephony apps, and fraudsters from Asia.

My cellphone is 978-701. My home phone is 978-68x (not giving away x so you won't figure out my location); 681 to 689 is common all over the area. I have gotten scams (all recordings) from 978-704 (and other last digits, but never 701 itself), 214-084, and various other 978 numbers. The one time I got a 603 number (adjacent area code, New Hampshire), it was a legitimate wrong number, not a scam.

In Spain we don't have that code-exchange problem simply because cellphones aren't attached to a particular province :sombrero:. They also start with different numbers to landlines. Landlines start with 9 and more recently also 8, and three digit prefixes are assigned by province (my province, for example, has 974 as prefix, and is expected to get 874 in the future), while cellphones start with 6 and more recently also 7 (however if a cellphone number starts with 7 then the second digit cannot be 0), and the first three digits of a cellphone number don't say anything about the area it could be, but rather the company it was originally assigned to. I have a cellphone number starting with 608, which means the number was originally issued to Movistar even though I'm now with Vodafone. While my mother has a number starting with 626.

Quote from: 1 on March 14, 2019, 03:16:16 PM
214-084

Well, that exchange can't even exist in the NANP.

Back when there was still a decent number of humans making the scam/spam calls, every once in a while, when I was in a mood, I would answer:  "Office of the Attorney General.  How may I direct your call?"

Nowadays, various phone-spam filters block most of the scams.  Near-number spoofing is a pain, however, especially when they are spoofing numbers near my company's phone numbers.  (Telecommuter, so I have both personal and office numbers ringing on VOIP phones at home.)

I usually don't answer my phone if it's not a number from my contacts, but every now and then I will, especially if I'm expecting a call, and
if it's a scam call I just hang up right away.

There have been a few times where I've tried messing with the caller, but it usually doesn't go to far. The best one I remember was when I kept getting calls that started with a recording saying "Hi, this is Rachel from cardholder services..." After about the 5th one in the same week I selected the number to be put through to a live person, then asked if this was Rachel, and after being told no I demanded to be put through to Rachel because she was the one who kept calling, and that she sounded kinda hot. I kept making this same demand in response to whatever was said to me until they hung up. 

I just got back from my yearly trip to Nicaragua and got at least 5 spam calls that were spoofed as being from El Salvador while there.  All were English (at least nominally) speaking scammers apparently in the USA, with typical USA scams like credit card rates, IRS, etc.

I just don't pick them up.

Since they like to spoof legit numbers, they've sometimes used numbers of people who have pissed them off. No thanks in that case.

I've gotten calls lately where the number calling looks like a legit local number, so I answer thinking it may by the doctor's office calling or something. So I answer, and the person says, "Hi, is Theresa there?" I say no, you have a wrong number. Then they'll say, "Oh, maybe you can help me then..." and proceed to run through some script trying to raise money for the Police Union or something. I eventually say I'm not interested and hang up. Just mildly annoying...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yUn_fT__mM

Every 2 years there are political calls on your landline phones. Yes what is strange in some cases is that the Superpac and Lobbying group for a candidate that calls my phone will spoof area codes that are not 916, 202, 800, 877, and 888 to somehow make themselves look like they are "For the Average person" except I know the locations of at least the California branches of Superpac and Lobbying offices because I did commute to Sacramento in the past though.


https://www.wric.com/news/politics/local-election-hq/annoyed-by-political-text-messages-here-s-how-to-make-it-stop/1565010513

Quote from: tchafe1978 on March 15, 2019, 08:44:43 PM
I've gotten calls lately where the number calling looks like a legit local number, so I answer thinking it may by the doctor's office calling or something. So I answer, and the person says, "Hi, is Theresa there?" I say no, you have a wrong number. Then they'll say, "Oh, maybe you can help me then..." and proceed to run through some script trying to raise money for the Police Union or something. I eventually say I'm not interested and hang up. Just mildly annoying...

I get those once every blue moon, but the guy always asks for Deborah.  I've had the same phone number about ten or eleven years now...

Quote from: kphoger on March 18, 2019, 02:43:37 PM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on March 15, 2019, 08:44:43 PM
I've gotten calls lately where the number calling looks like a legit local number, so I answer thinking it may by the doctor's office calling or something. So I answer, and the person says, "Hi, is Theresa there?" I say no, you have a wrong number. Then they'll say, "Oh, maybe you can help me then..." and proceed to run through some script trying to raise money for the Police Union or something. I eventually say I'm not interested and hang up. Just mildly annoying...

I get those once every blue moon, but the guy always asks for Deborah.  I've had the same phone number about ten or eleven years now...

I switched my cell phone from a 202 number to a 312 number about 2.5 years after moving here from DC, and it must have taken my apartment building's management company another two years to change my number in the call box at the building's front door.  I feel sorry for the poor bastard who got my old DC number and would have to field calls every time someone was delivering food to us.

Well considering that most auto dialers give you the chance to hang up as it takes a couple seconds for the dialer to find an operator to pitch, I do not deal with them.

Most of the time if I see a number I do not know, I never answer it.  However that infamous IRS call that Clark Howard and local cops warn you about, leaves messages on my voice main making it sound like a warrant is out for my arrest.  That is more disturbing cause you do not get to stop them.  However, call centers are not supposed to leave messages, but these scammers are not following the law anyway, but that shows that they are fraud.  However, some people fall for it and that is sad.

My phone alerts me to most scams.  If I don't recognize a number or a name, I won't answer. Sometimes I will answer but not say anything to see what sort of response I receive. Usually, they hang up

Interestingly, as I was reading this thread I got some b/s spoof call.  I often get the local exchange number trick, but this one came up restricted.  99% of the time I don't answer.  This one I answered, but all I said was "If you want to restrict your number from me then you're not worth my time," and hung up.

I was getting calls from a life insurance telemarketer that used some sort of AI/voice recognition response software.  It would ask how I was, I would say "fine," it would ask how old I was, I would say "39," and then it would hang up on me.  Eventually I started responding to "how are you today?" with "please stop calling this number," and after taking that approach 2 or 3 times, I stopped getting the calls.

Quote from: signalman on March 20, 2019, 08:39:16 AM
Interestingly, as I was reading this thread I got some b/s spoof call.  I often get the local exchange number trick, but this one came up restricted.  99% of the time I don't answer.  This one I answered, but all I said was "If you want to restrict your number from me then you're not worth my time," and hung up.

Now they know it's a legit number :)

Quote from: US71 on March 20, 2019, 09:11:17 AM

Quote from: signalman on March 20, 2019, 08:39:16 AM
Interestingly, as I was reading this thread I got some b/s spoof call.  I often get the local exchange number trick, but this one came up restricted.  99% of the time I don't answer.  This one I answered, but all I said was "If you want to restrict your number from me then you're not worth my time," and hung up.

Now they know it's a legit number :)

That's fine.  Like I previously said, the vast majority of the time I don't answer.  I'm not likely to ever answer again.  Heck, I often let voice mail screen calls from callers that I know.

I find almost half the "local number" calls I receive are from people who "missed" a call from my number then want to know why I called. It was often difficult to convince them it was a spoofed number.

That's one reason I quit doing my ST: Voyager EMH routine: "Please state the nature of the medical emergency"

Quote from: US71 on March 20, 2019, 11:10:53 AM
I find almost half the "local number" calls I receive are from people who "missed" a call from my number then want to know why I called. It was often difficult to convince them it was a spoofed number.

That's one reason I quit doing my ST: Voyager EMH routine: "Please state the nature of the medical emergency"

At home if we don't answer, a caller gets this message. It's pretty effective at getting most people to hang up, although some people seem to call again just to hear it multiple times: http://www.sillyhumor.com/answer/spock.wav

Quote from: signalman on March 20, 2019, 08:39:16 AM
I often get the local exchange number trick, but this one came up restricted.  99% of the time I don't answer.  This one I answered, but all I said was "If you want to restrict your number from me then you're not worth my time," and hung up.

I may have told this story before, but...

One day, back before cell phone days, a man I once knew got a phone call:  "Hi, this is Southwestern Bell!"  *click*  He hung up the phone.  A few minutes later, another call came in:  "Hi, this is Southwestern Bell!"  *click*  He hung up the phone.  I'm not sure how many times this continued until he finally answered back, "WHAT?"  It turned out to be his wife, who was out of town at the time, trying to call him collect.  OOPS!

Play Al Yankovics Phony Calls if you get a spam call.

Is there a difference between spam calls and scam calls? To me, spam implies that they're calling a whole bunch of people without regard to who it is, and a scam call is one where they're trying to scam you (hence the name). They usually overlap, but not always.

Quote from: 1 on March 27, 2019, 03:15:30 PM
Is there a difference between spam calls and scam calls? To me, spam implies that they're calling a whole bunch of people without regard to who it is, and a scam call is one where they're trying to scam you (hence the name). They usually overlap, but not always.

That's my interpretation as well.  Spam is something you don't want but end up with anyway.  Scams are trying to steal your information or your money.

Depends on my mood. Most recently:

"DOES YOUR MOTHER KNOW YOU WORK FOR A SCAM OPERATION?"
"No sir she doesn't because we aren't one." :click:

For those that have Verizon Wireless as a carrier: the new, free spam blocker app, Verizon Call Filter, is now live.  I downloaded it this morning.  Waiting to see what happens when the first scam call comes through.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 28, 2019, 11:32:07 AM
For those that have Verizon Wireless as a carrier: the new, free spam blocker app, Verizon Call Filter, is now live.  I downloaded it this morning.  Waiting to see what happens when the first scam call comes through.

I went to download that and it says it's only free for a 10-day trial and then costs $2.99 a month; most reviews are also negative. CNN reported this morning the app is supposed to be totally free sometime in the near future, so I think I'll wait.

I haven't read a whole lot a about, but I get the impression all it does is alert you that a call might be a scammer.  That doesn't really help me very much, because I still have to either answer the call or then listen to the inevitable voicemail if I decline the call.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2019, 12:09:46 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 28, 2019, 11:32:07 AM
For those that have Verizon Wireless as a carrier: the new, free spam blocker app, Verizon Call Filter, is now live.  I downloaded it this morning.  Waiting to see what happens when the first scam call comes through.

I went to download that and it says it's only free for a 10-day trial and then costs $2.99 a month; most reviews are also negative. CNN reported this morning the app is supposed to be totally free sometime in the near future, so I think I'll wait.

Mine says it's free.  It gives options of upgrading to premium for $2.99 a month.  Maybe the iTunes version only is live and Google Play isn't up yet.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 28, 2019, 01:56:08 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2019, 12:09:46 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 28, 2019, 11:32:07 AM
For those that have Verizon Wireless as a carrier: the new, free spam blocker app, Verizon Call Filter, is now live.  I downloaded it this morning.  Waiting to see what happens when the first scam call comes through.

I went to download that and it says it's only free for a 10-day trial and then costs $2.99 a month; most reviews are also negative. CNN reported this morning the app is supposed to be totally free sometime in the near future, so I think I'll wait.

Mine says it's free.  It gives options of upgrading to premium for $2.99 a month.  Maybe the iTunes version only is live and Google Play isn't up yet.

This is what I find in the App Store (note the text at the bottom):

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/1e5965420f6510b1f84f391dc32e733f.jpg)

This is what I found:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7852/40521490603_6ffb80fb99_n.jpg)

I see that same "what's new"  blurb, but I doubt the part about "free"  because the full app description showed what I posted and lots of reviews even from the past 24 hours talked about a fee. Guess I'll see what happens in the next week or two.

This is what I get, in order, as I view that in the App Store (the final one is what I get when I tap "more"  in the third one):

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/fcc77b62691686d840336665f5a8a62e.jpg) (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/ec398309bcce9b14a90e2ec27a5824d2.jpg) (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/cd2bd53b42fb11eefab60a26bbcd836d.jpg) (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/b011feba8397340befaac89993dbaeb3.jpg)

The pictured review is not for version 2.1, released yesterday. 2.1 includes free features including blocking, and optional in-app purchases (customizing lists, tracking, etc).

It works.  Got my first call that says "Potential Spam"  instead of the dreaded "No Caller ID"  for one of those calls that rings once and leaves a voicemail.

Quote from: davewiecking on March 28, 2019, 03:50:39 PM
The pictured review is not for version 2.1, released yesterday. 2.1 includes free features including blocking, and optional in-app purchases (customizing lists, tracking, etc).

Yes, I know, but I didn't want to add even more photos.  When I viewed all the reviews and sorted by most recent, there were a ton from the past 24 hours giving it one star and complaining that it's not free beyond ten days.

Quote from: US71 on March 20, 2019, 09:11:17 AM
Now they know it's a legit number :)

Answering the call, or even sending it to voicemail, still alerts the caller that the number is valid.  Once they proof of that it's likely that your unwanted calls will increase.  I always silence the ringer (pressing one of the volume buttons on the iPhone) and let the call continue ringing silently. 

Also, the iPhone has a Do Not Disturb feature.  I'm guessing Android has a similar feature but I don't know how it works but the iPhone's DND feature can be set to allow phone calls from people in your contacts even when the DND is turned on.  This effectively only lets people you know get through. 

I use YouMail for my voicemail.  It plays an out of service message for the spam calls, and won't let those ringless spam voicemails leave their message.

Update: IT'S USELESS!!!  Scam call with spoofed first 6 digits got through and was able to leave the 0% interest rate credit card scam message. 

I got that phony IRS call left a message on my voice mail earlier today.  They said the government was suing me and that I should not ignore the call that even the real police and IRS say we all should ignore.

I just block the numbers. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM
I just block the numbers.

Sadly, that's a never-ending battle since the spammers keep hopping from number to number.  Often, spoofed number to spoofed number.

Quote from: dlsterner on March 28, 2019, 11:36:36 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM
I just block the numbers.

Sadly, that's a never-ending battle since the spammers keep hopping from number to number.  Often, spoofed number to spoofed number.

Essentially 99% of the calls I get from out of the area tend to be the spam variety.  At least with modern iPhones it is just couple click process.  Older Verizon plans had a limit on how many numbers could be blocked. 

Quote from: dlsterner on March 28, 2019, 11:36:36 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM
I just block the numbers.

Sadly, that's a never-ending battle since the spammers keep hopping from number to number.  Often, spoofed number to spoofed number.

Even without blocking, I still have never gotten the same number twice for spam calls.

Quote from: 1 on March 29, 2019, 06:35:15 AM

Quote from: dlsterner on March 28, 2019, 11:36:36 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM
I just block the numbers.

Sadly, that's a never-ending battle since the spammers keep hopping from number to number.  Often, spoofed number to spoofed number.

Even without blocking, I still have never gotten the same number twice for spam calls.

Usually mine are fairly consistent.  I've been getting one the last couple days from the 718 area code number.  There is someone who has a couple dozen 602 numbers that has been calling in every consecutive number when I block them.

I'm on the no call list and these back pain @$$holes keep calling.  I scream in their ears "STOP F*CKING CALLING ME".  Politely telling them I'm on the no call list just elicited hang ups and more calls.  Sprint won't give me a new number without paying them to do it.

Quote from: dlsterner on March 28, 2019, 11:36:36 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM
I just block the numbers.

Sadly, that's a never-ending battle since the spammers keep hopping from number to number.  Often, spoofed number to spoofed number.

Yep I called one of them back 10 times and they didn't speak English and a cop called and threatened me.  I said I had a number of calls from their number but he didn't care.

Quote from: texaskdog on March 29, 2019, 08:40:01 AM
I'm on the no call list and these back pain @$$holes keep calling.  I scream in their ears "STOP F*CKING CALLING ME".  Politely telling them I'm on the no call list just elicited hang ups and more calls.  Sprint won't give me a new number without paying them to do it.

Most of the spam calls are auto generated.  It really wouldn't matter if you changed your number you would still get them from another scam caller.  The level of frustration of having to yell or voice your opinion to every spam call seems excessive in comparison to a simple block or not answering.

Quote from: texaskdog on March 29, 2019, 08:40:48 AM

Quote from: dlsterner on March 28, 2019, 11:36:36 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM
I just block the numbers.

Sadly, that's a never-ending battle since the spammers keep hopping from number to number.  Often, spoofed number to spoofed number.

Yep I called one of them back 10 times and they didn't speak English and a cop called and threatened me.  I said I had a number of calls from their number but he didn't care.

Yeah, because YOU'RE the one doing the harassing.  If I got a call from someone spoofing your number, and I called you back 10 times screaming at you, what are you going to do?  You didn't originate the calls; you can't do a damn thing about it. And you would be right to call the police on me!

Quote from: 1 on March 29, 2019, 06:35:15 AM

Quote from: dlsterner on March 28, 2019, 11:36:36 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM
I just block the numbers.

Sadly, that's a never-ending battle since the spammers keep hopping from number to number.  Often, spoofed number to spoofed number.

Even without blocking, I still have never gotten the same number twice for spam calls.

I've received the same number several times.  There was one for chimney cleaning that was so bad (I'm talking at least a hundred calls from the same number), I went on their Yelp page and trashed them,

CNN has an update on the Verizon Call Filter app. Sounds like the free version doesn't do anything that other apps already do.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190329/5492b0c85f41c67c4ac75b24f66c0d81.jpg)

Has anyone else noticed that these scammers never call on a Sunday or during a holiday?  I'm intrigued by the fact that these people, who make a living stealing money from the elderly and infirm, respect our society's days off.

Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2021, 12:50:43 PMHas anyone else noticed that these scammers never call on a Sunday or during a holiday?  I'm intrigued by the fact that these people, who make a living stealing money from the elderly and infirm, respect our society's days off.

I was intrigued enough by this idea that I checked my call log to verify.  There were no calls listed at all, so I couldn't tell.  (This doesn't mean I haven't gotten any scam calls at all.  I was forced to accept a remanufactured phone when an attempt to replace the battery on the phone I've had since 2014 trashed the motherboard, and I suspect the version of the call handler app I have now automatically drops calls from the log unless there is ongoing contact.)

I suspect that, to the extent scammers do abstain from Sundays and holidays, it is to minimize the chances of a scam being disrupted by a family member capable of seeing it for what it is.

Lately I've been getting more than usual, but they all spoof my area code. The trick is, my area code is not where I live anymore, so it's rare that anyone calls me from that area code, so if it's a number I don't recognize with my area code, I can be almost certain that it's spoofed and is spam. So I just don't answer. Sometimes my phone will say "Suspected Spam", sometimes not. And for non-spam calls, the phone tries to search the name/business of who is calling me, which is somewhat accurate and can be helpful. Anything actually important will leave a voicemail and I can call back, but so far it's been pretty foolproof.

Quote from: doorknob60 on January 14, 2021, 02:46:12 PM
Lately I've been getting more than usual, but they all spoof my area code. The trick is, my area code is not where I live anymore, so it's rare that anyone calls me from that area code, so if it's a number I don't recognize with my area code, I can be almost certain that it's spoofed and is spam. So I just don't answer. Sometimes my phone will say "Suspected Spam", sometimes not. And for non-spam calls, the phone tries to search the name/business of who is calling me, which is somewhat accurate and can be helpful. Anything actually important will leave a voicemail and I can call back, but so far it's been pretty foolproof.

I sometimes ask them how they ended up with a Wichita cell phone number, if they're calling me from a landline in Miami or Las Vegas or wherever they say they're calling me from.  Never gotten an answer to that question...

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 14, 2021, 01:53:01 PM
I suspect that, to the extent scammers do abstain from Sundays and holidays, it is to minimize the chances of a scam being disrupted by a family member capable of seeing it for what it is.

In other words, the family members who are usually at work are more likely to be home on Sundays and holidays. Interesting and probably accurate.

I just told the scammer (auto-prompter asking to confirm personal details) who called me a minute ago that my name is Bob Salman.  :)

And, in case anyone is wondering what kind of vehicle I drive, I always tell them it's a 2008 Mercedes Trailblazer (https://automobilecar.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/z-mercedes-benz-m-bike.jpg).  Don't ask me how many miles are on it, because it doesn't have an odometer.  Usually they just ask me to estimate, so I estimate 20,000 miles.

Also, my ZIP code is apparently 27980, and my address is Orilla de Agua 36 (https://goo.gl/maps/PLsxAqYy6Gzhv5pZ6).  Don't worry about that being in a foreign country, because people in India never make it past the pronunciation of the street name.

My mom was often a sucker for the charity calls.  I got calls when I was cleaning out her apartment and they were thanking me for my latest donation.  I insisted they were wrong and they insisted they were correct.  That's when I pulled out both barrels "the person you want is no longer here. She died and I'm just cleaning her apartment."

My aunt was a sucker for the childrens' charities and was always sending them money. One day, she finally got wise and told them to go away.

As someone else posted higher up in the thread, I keep my 913 area code from when I lived in KC.  I know I'm not meeting anyone new from KC anytime soon now living in Denver, so every Kansas number (sometimes also 316 and 602) I see that isn't already a contact, I know is spam.  That said, I am starting a new job with a KC based company (working remotely) so my plan just may have been spoiled.

Chris

I've been noticing a lot of calls lately from 11316####### (an extra 1 at the beginning) or 1316###### (a missing digit somewhere).

Twice in one day recently, I got a call from 316.  That's it, just three digits.  Ummmm, yeah.

I also now keep a bogus Visa credit card number in my wallet, so I can whip that out if needed.  It's in the correct numeric format, and its check digit works.  They have to look up what bank it was issued from in order to know it's not real.

Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2021, 03:53:16 PM
I've been noticing a lot of calls lately from 11316####### (an extra 1 at the beginning) or 1316###### (a missing digit somewhere).

Twice in one day recently, I got a call from 316.  That's it, just three digits.  Ummmm, yeah.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have an eternal lifetime of scam calls directed at them.

Not a fan of the Amplified Bible, personally...

I straight up got a call from someone saying I owed $10,000 for some involvement in a marketing program. I told them to send me something by mail and I'll turn it over to my Attorney. They said well we will be turning this over to an Attorney. I said that's fine I'll contact my Attorney and I hung up on them.

I'm surprised so many of you answer all these calls.

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 14, 2021, 04:51:22 PM
I'm surprised so many of you answer all these calls.

1.  I want to make sure it isn't someone really trying to get a hold of me.  I dislike the process of ignoring a call, getting a voicemail, listening to the voicemail, calling the person back, possibly having to play phone tag...  I'd rather just find out in three seconds if it's really someone trying to call me.

2.  I'd rather waste their time, even if just for a little bit, than have them use that time to call an actual victim.

3.  If I ignore the call, sometimes I still get a voicemail that I have to make sure isn't legitimate and then delete.  Too much hassle.

Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2021, 04:53:03 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 14, 2021, 04:51:22 PM
I'm surprised so many of you answer all these calls.

1.  I want to make sure it isn't someone really trying to get a hold of me.  I dislike the process of ignoring a call, getting a voicemail, listening to the voicemail, calling the person back, possibly having to play phone tag...  I'd rather just find out in three seconds if it's really someone trying to call me.

2.  I'd rather waste their time, even if just for a little bit, than have them use that time to call an actual victim.

3.  If I ignore the call, sometimes I still get a voicemail that I have to make sure isn't legitimate and then delete.  Too much hassle.

But doesn't answering just lead to more calls because it verifies that the phone number is real/active or something like that?

Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2021, 04:53:03 PM
1.  I want to make sure it isn't someone really trying to get a hold of me.  I dislike the process of ignoring a call, getting a voicemail, listening to the voicemail, calling the person back, possibly having to play phone tag...  I'd rather just find out in three seconds if it's really someone trying to call me.

These days it's so rare that someone I don't know would call me for a legitimate reason that if I don't recognize the number or am not expecting a call, I just don't answer it. I suspect this approach is probably more common among younger people.

I usually ignore them, but sometimes I'll answer and pretend they are calling for pizza by saying "Thank you for calling Papa John's in (insert town name here), this is Bob (fake name), how can I help you?"  

They just hang up.

I ignore then block the number

Quote from: ET21 on January 15, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
I ignore then block the number

I would have thought this is what most people do.

Quote from: Rothman on January 15, 2021, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: ET21 on January 15, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
I ignore then block the number

I would have thought this is what most people do.

I never used to until last year. Before 2020, I'd just ignore them and eventually they would stop. But since last year robo calls to my cell have gone up exponentially. So I've adopted this new tactic and its worked nicely so far

Quote from: webny99 on January 14, 2021, 11:58:44 PM

Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2021, 04:53:03 PM
1.  I want to make sure it isn't someone really trying to get a hold of me.  I dislike the process of ignoring a call, getting a voicemail, listening to the voicemail, calling the person back, possibly having to play phone tag...  I'd rather just find out in three seconds if it's really someone trying to call me.

These days it's so rare that someone I don't know would call me for a legitimate reason that if I don't recognize the number or am not expecting a call, I just don't answer it. I suspect this approach is probably more common among younger people.

That's what we've done for years, and it's one of the reasons why I got caller ID right away upon moving into my current house in 2001. I had gotten used to having it on my work phone and wasn't about to do without it at home.

We have a robocall blocker as well (Nomorobo) and it's very effective. Doesn't catch all calls, of course, but it screens out a heck of a lot of them.

I don't bother with blocking numbers most of the time because I think it's a waste of time–the scammers are spoofing the numbers anyway and are just going to call again from a different number, so blocking is usually a waste of time.

One thing this thread makes me think of is the old practice of using an answering machine to screen calls–you know, when you let the machine answer and then you pick up if you know the caller. I suspect that practice has largely gone by the wayside due to both the general ubiquity of caller ID (no need to screen calls if you know the caller) and, more commonly these days, the more widespread use of voicemail such that you aren't listening in anyway. My brother-in-law will still say "Hello.....helllooooo.....anybody home....." etc. multiple times waiting for someone to pick up the phone. I've sometimes thought about pointing out to him that most people can't hear him doing that, but I've never bothered. Of course he also knows we have caller ID and will normally answer his calls unless we're busy doing something urgent.

Quote from: Rothman on January 15, 2021, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: ET21 on January 15, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
I ignore then block the number

I would have thought this is what most people do.

I'm amazed many people don't.

For some, it's a cultural thing, as in they want to be nice and answer the phone.  I would see this when it comes to Timeshare Salesmen.  Some people don't want to be rude and will answer or indulge the salesperson...which is exactly what they wanted them to do.  The salesperson had no issue being 'rude' by jumping in front of someone to encourage them to step over to see the fabulous vacation rental just minutes from whatever destination they choose in exchange for "short" 90 minute presentation and free gifts.  For others, like me, I don't even glance, and I'm not giving them a 'No'. 

Back to scam operations calling...I'm not going to pick up the phone (kids, that's a term when the phone was just a phone, attached to a wall).  They can't make a sale if you don't answer.  If you do answer, their foot is already in the door.

Quote from: Rothman on January 15, 2021, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: ET21 on January 15, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
I ignore then block the number

I would have thought this is what most people do.

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 15, 2021, 09:11:21 AM
I don't bother with blocking numbers most of the time because I think it's a waste of time–the scammers are spoofing the numbers anyway and are just going to call again from a different number, so blocking is usually a waste of time.

That's the answer.  I know darned well they aren't really calling me from the number that shows up, so there's no point in blocking the number.  On my current phone, it takes three buttons to block a number, so I've started doing that, but it doesn't make a difference.

Quote from: vdeane on January 14, 2021, 09:06:39 PM
But doesn't answering just lead to more calls because it verifies that the phone number is real/active or something like that?

Yes it does.  And more of their time I can waste if I'm in the mood to do so.  I don't know which is better:  not getting the calls in the first place, or keeping them (even if only for a couple of minutes) from calling someone more gullible than me.

I wonder:  does the more bogus information I give them make their whole data set that much less valuable to potential buyers?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2021, 09:15:33 AM
I'm not going to pick up the phone (kids, that's a term when the phone was just a phone, attached to a wall). 

You don't still pick up your cell phone to answer it? You would probably look pretty silly putting your ear on the table to answer it.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 15, 2021, 01:08:38 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2021, 09:15:33 AM
I'm not going to pick up the phone (kids, that's a term when the phone was just a phone, attached to a wall). 

You don't still pick up your cell phone to answer it? You would probably look pretty silly putting your ear on the table to answer it.

True, true.  Though, I bet you don't literally hang up your cell phone up after the call is done!

(My cell phone is housed in a leather pouch on my belt.  Does putting it away count as "hanging it up"?)

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 15, 2021, 01:08:38 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2021, 09:15:33 AM
I'm not going to pick up the phone (kids, that's a term when the phone was just a phone, attached to a wall). 

You don't still pick up your cell phone to answer it? You would probably look pretty silly putting your ear on the table to answer it.

He could use the speakerphone, though, and answer it without picking it up. (Then there are the people who for some reason use the speakerphone while holding the phone out in front of their face like it's a slice of pizza.)

...or answer the phone by pushing a button in their ear...

Once in a while, I'll answer the "unknown" number.  Lately it's been the Extended Warranty scams. 

Once I start speaking with an operator, I ask them who specifically they are trying to reach and what is the vehicle they are inquiring about.  They can't tell me (what a surprise!)

Then I tell them if they don't know who they are trying to reach or what vehicle they are inquiring about, then I say "Why the hell did you call me?  Maybe because you are a SCAM? "

Then I rip into them saying their mom and dad must be proud of them being a scam artist.  Then I tell them they need to find a REAL job that they can be proud of because this doesn't cut it. 

I was surprised one person still stuck to the script after all of that shaming.  Most of them either hang up or even ask for them to take me off their list...I say if you you don't know who you're wanting to talk to, then Duh,....stop calling me. 

Off-topic, but some people make a hobby of baiting the scammers.  (Warning:  Not an activity to be undertaken lightly.)  One archive of some e-mail exchanges can be found at https://www.419eater.com/html/letters.htm.  These folks have tricked scammers into performing some outrageous activities in the hopes that they (the scammers) will receive wads of cash:  Posing for ridiculous photos, making carvings or other art projects, even getting tattoos proclaiming they have been scambaited.

One thing I've been doing, especially after my work phone started forwarding to my cell phone because of work from home (thereby making ignoring all calls from unknown numbers no longer a viable strategy) is to answer but not say anything for a few seconds on numbers I'm not sure about.  I figure a real person would say hello or respond when I finally do, but it seems to confuse the robo dialers.

Quote from: thenetwork on January 15, 2021, 07:13:18 PM
Lately it's been the Extended Warranty scams. 

Once I start speaking with an operator, I ask them who specifically they are trying to reach and what is the vehicle they are inquiring about.  They can't tell me (what a surprise!)

Sometimes I ask them which vehicle they're referring to.  Then they ask me to verify the make and model, so I ask again which one they want me to verify.  I tell them I have multiple vehicles, but I didn't realize my warranty was ending, and I'm really interested to know which one it is so I can make sure I'm still covered.  This tactic doesn't actually keep them on the phone very long, because they quickly tire of "I just need you to verify the make and model / On which one?" over and over again.

(For the record, I only own one car, and the only warranty I've ever had on any car was the three-month powertrain-only one issued by a used car dealership.)

Normally I just silently hang up - if I even answered in the first place.

Although with the "Extended Warranty" scam, I've been tempted to tell the caller that my car is a 1987 Yugo with 400,000 miles on it.

Quote from: dlsterner on January 18, 2021, 11:34:16 PM
Although with the "Extended Warranty" scam, I've been tempted to tell the caller that my car is a 1987 Yugo with 400,000 miles on it.

If it's over a certain number of miles, they're not interested in you anyway.

I use an app to block all non-contacts on my cell, and the built-in MagicJack blocker on my landline.  The latter requires human input.

I've been recently getting spam called by some debt collection agency for some reason. I have no debt and couldn't even get it if I tried because I have no credit history, so it has to be a scam. Every time they call and they ask for the last 4 digits of my SSN I always give them random garbage and start going on with totally random "related" info I can use to "prove" it's mine when they said it won't work. I don't know why they keep calling me when I keep doing that.

Quote from: index on January 19, 2021, 03:08:58 PM
I've been recently getting spam called by some debt collection agency for some reason. I have no debt and couldn't even get it if I tried because I have no credit history, so it has to be a scam.

A year ago or so, I kept getting collection calls.  It was from an agency through whom my wife had canceled our credit card a couple of years earlier.  I kept telling her to get in contact with the bank and tell them to fix their error.  After enough times of that, she finally broke and admitted that she had re-opened the credit card to pay for an unexpected expense we couldn't otherwise afford.  She hadn't told me because she figured it would only add to the stress of the situation that prompted her to do it.  So it turned out the calls were 100% legit!  I just didn't know it.

Quote from: index on January 19, 2021, 03:08:58 PM
Every time they call and they ask for the last 4 digits of my SSN I always give them random garbage and start going on with totally random "related" info I can use to "prove" it's mine when they said it won't work. I don't know why they keep calling me when I keep doing that.

They keep calling because you keep talking to them.  I'm not saying you should stop.  Heaven knows I keep baiting them, myself.  But that's why they keep calling you.

I just answer, then hang up immediately. Done and done.

i get the auto-warranty one a lot. whats funny is the number they are calling is a google voice number, which isn't listed anywhere.

'this is our last attempt before we close the file' ... so close it already? i have never owned a car with less than 150k miles, so it wouldn't apply anyway.

but i saw an ad on tv for an app that gives them funny messages, so i will do the same thing manually. my cell doesn't get a lot of calls, and i know who i want to talk to and who i don't. so when they call i'll just 'just a second the damn sheep's getting away' or 'i have sharks circling the boat can i call you back?' or something similar.

This week I've gotten two robocall voicemails, both from numbers purporting to be in Idaho, regarding some sort of a subscription renewal (it doesn't say to what): "$349.99 is going to be charged from your checking account or plastic card which is attached in our system for the auto renewal of your subscription."

"Plastic card"? Seriously? How stupid do you have to be to fall for this garbage?

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 01:45:59 PM
This week I've gotten two robocall voicemails, both from numbers purporting to be in Idaho, regarding some sort of a subscription renewal (it doesn't say to what): "$349.99 is going to be charged from your checking account or plastic card which is attached in our system for the auto renewal of your subscription."

"Plastic card"? Seriously? How stupid do you have to be to fall for this garbage?

Plastic card is a British/Commonwealth country term for a credit card (though I don't believe Canada or Australia use the term). You can take your guess on what former British colony is doing it.

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 01:45:59 PM
This week I've gotten two robocall voicemails, both from numbers purporting to be in Idaho, regarding some sort of a subscription renewal (it doesn't say to what): "$349.99 is going to be charged from your checking account or plastic card which is attached in our system for the auto renewal of your subscription."

"Plastic card"? Seriously? How stupid do you have to be to fall for this garbage?

i too have gotten these, which is a neat trick since i possess no plastic cards...

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 01:45:59 PM
This week I've gotten two robocall voicemails, both from numbers purporting to be in Idaho, regarding some sort of a subscription renewal (it doesn't say to what): "$349.99 is going to be charged from your checking account or plastic card which is attached in our system for the auto renewal of your subscription."

"Plastic card"? Seriously? How stupid do you have to be to fall for this garbage?

My AMEX is actually metal and not plastic.

The only time I've heard someone use the term "plastic card" was my father. It was back in the 1970s; I was with him at the Erol's on Columbia Pike in Arlington when he went to buy our first color TV. As a little kid, I thought the amount of money was enormous and I asked him how he was ever going to pay for it. He replied, "I'm going to use my plastic card," and he gave the clerk what I later learned was a credit card. But as a little kid, I was further flabbergasted when the clerk handed the card back: "Why did he give you your money back? Aren't we getting the TV?"  :-D :-D :-D

Remember those debt collectors? I started answering the calls again except this time instead of feeding them fake info, I started to tell absurd, extremely graphic stories about how I was abducted by aliens or chased by an axe-murdering clone of Obama. After the third time I did it they stopped calling me.

Had a guy call me the other day from Medicare (supposedly from a Wichita-area cell phone :spin:).  He asked me how much I weigh.  I said it depends on whether he meant before or after pooping.  He didn't quite catch that, so I had to repeat it more clearly.  Then he said let's go with before.  Oh, in that case, quite a lot, then!  He hung up.

Lame.

You know, as soon as I hear the words "Social Security", I hang up the phone because I know it's a scam.  Which makes me wonder...

Several years ago, my dad received a call from INS because an illegal immigrant in California had made up a phony SSN and it happened to be my dad's SSN.  If I were to get such a phone call today, would I hang up on the officer, thinking he was just a scammer?

Quote from: kphoger on July 21, 2021, 03:44:08 PM
You know, as soon as I hear the words "Social Security", I hang up the phone because I know it's a scam.  Which makes me wonder...

Idea for toying with them: pretend that "social security" has something to do with "social anxiety". As in, you believe "social security" is the state of being secure in your social skills.

Apparently, it isn't against the law to talk dirty to a telemarketer.

https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/faqs/can-i-be-sued-for-talking-dirty-to-a-telemarketer/

Hmmmmmm......  This may call for some creativity......

Today I got a scammer's text about a falsified fraudulent charge to my credit card with a phone number to call (likely someone on the other end with the goal to get you to read back your card information to the scammers). Those are the ones that will get people because of emotion and fear that they need to act quickly to reverse the fraud.

If any relative or friend is trying to get hold of me, it'll display their name as the phone's ringing. If it's any other name I don't recognize, or "unknown," or just a number displayed...then off to voice mail it goes. If the VM indicates a scam, then I block that number.

These days I might get one scam phone call a week.

It's bad enough getting telemarketing/scam calls, but getting 3 calls "en Espanol"???  I barely learned enough Spanish in High School to pass my Spanish classes.

I use an old line from a Steve Martin skit on El Scammo callers de las Espanol:

"DONDE ESTA CASA DE PE PE???"

I ghost all incoming calls that do not identify in my Contacts list.

---

You don't ghost Nick Fury

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/73/c4/8473c418904e2bf74c8661ac6cb290ed.jpg)

Yes, I do - because it could be Talos.

Quote from: thenetwork on April 25, 2022, 11:22:24 PM
It's bad enough getting telemarketing/scam calls, but getting 3 calls "en Espanol"???  I barely learned enough Spanish in High School to pass my Spanish classes.

I use an old line from a Steve Martin skit on El Scammo callers de las Espanol:

"DONDE ESTA CASA DE PE PE???"

I got one once, from a downtown Chicago area code, in what sounded like Japanese.  At least I assume it was a scam.  Who really knows?

^^ Scammers frequently forge their phone number.

Quote from: Big John on April 26, 2022, 09:25:24 AM
^^ Scammers frequently forge their phone number.

I've received calls from my phone number.

Scammers I usually just hang up or don't answer, though I've been known to do my Voyager EMH imitation (Please state the nature of he medical emergency).

Quote from: Big John on April 26, 2022, 09:25:24 AM
^^ Scammers frequently forge their phone number.

– Where are you located?
– Miami, Florida.
– Really?  Your caller ID came up as being in New York.
– I have a New York cell phone, but I live in Miami.
– No, it came up as a landline number in New York, not a cell phone.
– Well, I don't know why, because I'm here in Miami, Florida.
– What's the weather like there today?
– Oh, it's great.  Warm.
– So, I'm still confused:  why does your phone number come up as a land line in New York state?

  ~ or ~

– Where are you located?
– Los Angles, California.
– Then why does your caller ID come up as a Kansas cell phone?
– Sometimes our calls display local phone numbers, because a lot of people don't answer out-of-state numbers.
– A legitimate operation wouldn't spoof their phone number when calling.

Send it to voicemail, give thanks that I wasn't born into a situation where doing this for a living was an appealing option.

Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2022, 12:04:39 PM
Send it to voicemail, give thanks that I wasn't born into a situation where doing this for a living was an appealing option.

...or were led to believe you were hiring on for a legitimate call center job, only to find out later it's a criminal operation but you can't afford to leave.

Oh I like the one where some guy with very broken English dialect calls your home and says " I'm here to talk to you about your computer"  usually when your on the device. So you get scared as you don't know if this guy is hacked in to your pc, or if it's bad luck of the draw, or if he is a stupid person (dim witted that is  I am not referring to the trade of over the phone sales here) who is working for a telemarketer and just appears to be a crook.

This person reached a coworker of mine at my former job as well. So he might of been just a telemarketer using scare tactics to get you to buy.   Then again he could be shady as well.

I just hang up on the creep.  So far I haven't heard from him in years since I moved, so a blessing there.

Quote from: kphoger on April 26, 2022, 12:14:41 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2022, 12:04:39 PM
Send it to voicemail, give thanks that I wasn't born into a situation where doing this for a living was an appealing option.

...or were led to believe you were hiring on for a legitimate call center job, only to find out later it's a criminal operation but you can't afford to leave.

Yes, that too.

Quote from: Big John on April 26, 2022, 09:25:24 AM
^^ Scammers frequently forge their phone number.

Yes, but the odds that they forge a number in my contacts list is pretty rare. My contacts are all in one of a handful of groups, who each have their own ringtone. Anybody not in my contact list gets a ringtone of "Who Are You" by The Who. If I hear that song, I know not to bother answering unless I'm in the mood to mess with someone.

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 26, 2022, 12:49:34 PM
Yes, but the odds that they forge a number in my contacts list is pretty rare.

They do, however, commonly spoof a phone number that's in the same block/exchange/pool/allocation as my cell phone.  That is to say, they make it look like another local cell phone is calling me.

Quote from: kphoger on April 26, 2022, 01:11:10 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 26, 2022, 12:49:34 PM
Yes, but the odds that they forge a number in my contacts list is pretty rare.

They do, however, commonly spoof a phone number that's in the same block/exchange/pool/allocation as my cell phone.  That is to say, they make it look like another local cell phone is calling me.

Other than my wife, none of my contacts use that same exchange so it's pretty easy to recognize them as scams.

There are times when I wish that I had the equipment and tech savvy to be able to take over a scammer's (from somewhere in India!) computer, download,install and activate a seriously evil ransomwear program on it while I was on the phone with him, and post the recorded call to YouTube when I was done!

:-P

Mike

I've gotten a few calls and texts from 785-296-XXXX numbers.  Area code 785 covers Topeka, and exchange 296 is assigned to the State of Kansas, so this looks like a clear-cut example of scammers trying a "You are about to lose state aid" play.

It's interesting to look at the psychology underlying these scams.  Promises of cash up front don't work on me, but I've gotten one step in on scams that somehow play on fears of loose threads or reputation management failures.  Because several state DOTs integrate construction plans distribution with DBE management, I routinely get emails from businesses wanting quotes from me, asking if I'm interested in serving as a subcontractor, or offering estimation services.  I suspect much of the mail I've been getting in the last-listed category is actually spam.

A while ago I received an email allegedly from a firm of solicitors in Northern Ireland, saying they were searching for heirs to the estate of someone with my last name.  It had none of the typical signs of being spam--grammar and spelling were essentially perfect and it had the tone of an ordinary business letter.  I suspected it was fraudulent largely because my name ancestors actually come from Saxony.  I didn't feel quite right about just deleting it, and Googling did not turn up evidence of others receiving emails allegedly from the same firm (which actually exists), so I dug up an email contact address and wrote to it, quoting the suspected scam email, and asked them to get in touch with me via return email if they had really sent it.  They never wrote back, so I feel I got the response I needed.

My phone now includes a Google call screener, that will play a script explainning that I am using a call screening service, and for the caller to state wheren they are calling from and reason for calling. I have yet to have one caller continue with the call after using it. Most of the time previously I would just let the call go to voicemail.

I sometimes get the other end of the "scam" call. As part of my job, I have to call customers to let them know their orders are ready, or to follow up on their order a week or so after they pick it up. I had one customer, who was originally from Vietnam I think she said, who I had to call to let her know her order was ready. She of course didn't recognize the number I was calling from, so when she answered she started to scream loudly in her native language. I just sat and laughed to myself for a few seconds before trying to state who I was, and why and where I was calling from. She calmed down and aplogized once she saw who I was. She knew who I was, having dealt with her in person in the store. I've had a few other customers answer irately before realizing who was calling and that we had previously done business, but that one takes the cake. One of these times I'm going to say I'm calling about your car's warranty just to see what kind of reaction I get, but that might get me in trouble.

Back when signing up for a long-distance provider was a thing, my sister-in-law would respond to telemarketers who wanted her to change. "Oh, sorry, we don't have a phone." Some of them bought it and apologized for the bother.'

Quote from: GaryV on April 26, 2022, 04:44:39 PM
Back when signing up for a long-distance provider was a thing, my sister-in-law would respond to telemarketers who wanted her to change. "Oh, sorry, we don't have a phone." Some of them bought it and apologized for the bother.'

My dad has done that before.  What are they going to do, call you a liar?

I tried it once recently.  The guy asked me how I was talking to him then.  I said I didn't know.  That conversation didn't last long.

For the scammers who want to "remove a virus we detected" on your computer, I've often wondered if they were going to get me to reveal my IP address to them, presumably so they could install some sort of malware.

If I told them it was 127.0.0.1, would they be stupid enough to try to install it there?

Quote from: dlsterner on April 26, 2022, 08:40:43 PM
For the scammers who want to "remove a virus we detected" on your computer, I've often wondered if they were going to get me to reveal my IP address to them, presumably so they could install some sort of malware.

If I told them it was 127.0.0.1, would they be stupid enough to try to install it there?

Unless you have a very insecure network, they can't do that with just your IP address. Tech support scammers gain access to your computer by getting you to install remote access software.

Quote from: GaryV on April 26, 2022, 04:44:39 PM
Back when signing up for a long-distance provider was a thing, my sister-in-law would respond to telemarketers who wanted her to change. "Oh, sorry, we don't have a phone." Some of them bought it and apologized for the bother.'

Back when AT&T still formally had its full name, I told an AT&T telemarketer that I wanted to purchase a telegraph. He got really confused.

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 27, 2022, 07:35:04 AM

Quote from: GaryV on April 26, 2022, 04:44:39 PM
Back when signing up for a long-distance provider was a thing, my sister-in-law would respond to telemarketers who wanted her to change. "Oh, sorry, we don't have a phone." Some of them bought it and apologized for the bother.'

Back when AT&T still formally had its full name, I told an AT&T telemarketer that I wanted to purchase a telegraph. He got really confused.

"Well, what does that second T stand for, then?" :D

Quote from: Rothman on April 27, 2022, 08:13:03 AM
"Well, what does that second T stand for, then?" :D

It stands for "Kentucky Fried".

I just got a call from a lady who, as soon as I said hello, said sternly:  Now you know what's it's like to be called from a number that's unwanted!

I immediately realized some scam operator had probably spoofed my phone number, and that she was simply calling the number back to chew them out.  So I simply replied:  You were probably spoofed.

She said, with her foot in her mouth:  You're right, I was.

Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2024, 03:43:53 PM
I just got a call from a lady who, as soon as I said hello, said sternly:  Now you know what's it's like to be called from a number that's unwanted!

I immediately realized some scam operator had probably spoofed my phone number, and that she was simply calling the number back to chew them out.  So I simply replied:  You were probably spoofed.

She said, with her foot in her mouth:  You're right, I was.

I've gotten a couple calls from older people to whom I had to explain that my number wasn't actually the one that called them.

By the way, isn't it about time for somebody to invent technology that prevents spoofing? Forces the call to either show up as the actual location it's from or just 'unkown'.

Either hang up or don't even answer.

I've lately just been answering and then not talking, so they just hear me typing away (as this is usually during work hours). Most of the time they don't hang up for about 30 seconds or so, so I'd like to think I'm saving one other human a call.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 20, 2024, 04:31:17 PM
I've lately just been answering and then not talking, so they just hear me typing away (as this is usually during work hours). Most of the time they don't hang up for about 30 seconds or so, so I'd like to think I'm saving one other human a call.

Same here.  If I have music playing on the PC speakers, then I set the phone near them.

Don't answer the phone unless I know who it is.

I just got a call from a number I didn't recognize. It was legitimate (a Walgreens that I called a few days prior but not my typical one). Not answering unknown calls will result in missing out on things.

The really annoying thing is that I have an official "work number" on Microsoft Teams which is a 303 (Denver) number. Every time I get a call on it from a phone number (as opposed to someone on my team), it's a Colorado based number, so I know it's spam. But, it takes three clicks of the red button to make the call actually go away. If I just hit dismiss once, it calls back about a second and a half later.

had a few "Hi, is Laurie there?  ... OK, maybe you can help me then"
"yes, she is in the restroom, wait a second" (putting phone on a desk  and walking to grab a snack)

I just got a spam text about terms for a loan.  Just responded, "Not good enough."  Didn't hear back.

Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2024, 05:30:11 PM
I just got a spam text about terms for a loan.  Just responded, "Not good enough."  Didn't hear back.

We may bicker with each other on here sometimes, but I never fail to be entertained by the things you share on here.

Quote from: 1 on February 20, 2024, 04:46:06 PM
I just got a call from a number I didn't recognize. It was legitimate (a Walgreens that I called a few days prior but not my typical one). Not answering unknown calls will result in missing out on things.

Legit callers can always leave a message.

Quote from: GaryV on February 20, 2024, 06:32:19 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 20, 2024, 04:46:06 PM
I just got a call from a number I didn't recognize. It was legitimate (a Walgreens that I called a few days prior but not my typical one). Not answering unknown calls will result in missing out on things.

Legit callers can always leave a message.

But can and do aren't the same thing.

Also, if one's mailbox is full or not set up, then they cannot.

I have the next best thing to a burner phone. I have a VOIP phone for work, that probably uses some similar tech to obfuscate the number - I.E. since I'm an admin, I can change my number with a mouse click.

So, it's fun harassing scammers back. I like the 'we found a rental car in your name at the border with a bunch of dope' one.

I'll ask what kind of car, and it's usually a Toyota Yaris.

I tell 'em, well, that can't be me. When I run drugs, I use the Suburban. Better cargoi capacity.

Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2024, 06:44:35 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 20, 2024, 06:32:19 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 20, 2024, 04:46:06 PM
I just got a call from a number I didn't recognize. It was legitimate (a Walgreens that I called a few days prior but not my typical one). Not answering unknown calls will result in missing out on things.

Legit callers can always leave a message.

But can and do aren't the same thing.

Also, if one's mailbox is full or not set up, then they cannot.

Google "Ringless Voicemail". Tech exists to drop a message into your box (full or not, as I understrand it), without even your phone making a noise.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on February 20, 2024, 06:55:03 PM
Tech exists to drop a message into your box (full or not, as I understrand it), without even your phone making a noise.

In which case, it's a moot point.  If the phone doesn't ring...

Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2024, 07:00:23 PM

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on February 20, 2024, 06:55:03 PM
Tech exists to drop a message into your box (full or not, as I understrand it), without even your phone making a noise.

In which case, it's a moot point.  If the phone doesn't ring...

Sometimes, often even, the simplest solution is the right one.

Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2024, 06:44:35 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 20, 2024, 06:32:19 PM

Quote from: 1 on February 20, 2024, 04:46:06 PM
I just got a call from a number I didn't recognize. It was legitimate (a Walgreens that I called a few days prior but not my typical one). Not answering unknown calls will result in missing out on things.

Legit callers can always leave a message.

But can and do aren't the same thing.

Also, if one's mailbox is full or not set up, then they cannot.

I had that problem while on vacation a few years back.  Driving down to Key West, I got a call from an unknown number.  No message, so probably junk right?  That night, one of my credit cards no longer worked.  Weird, right?  The next day, I get called multiple times from a different unknown number; the second time, I answer the call, and it's from one of my hotels responding to an issue I had.  Turns out they tried to call before and were unable to leave a voicemail.  That night, I call Cricket and find out that they "upgraded" the voicemail system at some point, resulting in my phone needing to be reconfigured to regain access to it.  After hours on the phone (and me having skipped dinner as a result), they still hadn't fixed it, and I only managed to fix it when a random solution from Google happened to work.  And then the following day, credit card still not working, I finally call the bank and find out that the first call was from them, having locked the card because they thought the Wawa transaction near West Palm Beach was potentially fraudulent (probably because the card may have skipped Jacksonville since I didn't need to buy meals there, resulting in a longer than normal distance/time gap between transactions) and weren't able to get a hold of me.

Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2022, 02:55:21 PMMy phone now includes a Google call screener, that will play a script explainning that I am using a call screening service, and for the caller to state wheren they are calling from and reason for calling. I have yet to have one caller continue with the call after using it. Most of the time previously I would just let the call go to voicemail.

I sometimes get the other end of the "scam" call. As part of my job, I have to call customers to let them know their orders are ready, or to follow up on their order a week or so after they pick it up. I had one customer, who was originally from Vietnam I think she said, who I had to call to let her know her order was ready. She of course didn't recognize the number I was calling from, so when she answered she started to scream loudly in her native language. I just sat and laughed to myself for a few seconds before trying to state who I was, and why and where I was calling from. She calmed down and aplogized once she saw who I was. She knew who I was, having dealt with her in person in the store. I've had a few other customers answer irately before realizing who was calling and that we had previously done business, but that one takes the cake. There are a lot of scams these days. I have already learned to distinguish it. I answer calls that I trust and play with confidence. I recently read about tron, my friend found tron casino (https://casinosanalyzer.com/online-casinos/tron) and sent it to me. I will say that this is much better than the games I play. Again, everyone needs experience in this. One of these times I'm going to say I'm calling about your car's warranty just to see what kind of reaction I get, but that might get me in trouble.

This is an interesting way. But I just don't answer the phone with unknown numbers.

Quote from: Daisy Rahman on April 09, 2024, 10:16:52 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2022, 02:55:21 PMMy phone now includes a Google call screener, that will play a script explainning that I am using a call screening service, and for the caller to state wheren they are calling from and reason for calling. I have yet to have one caller continue with the call after using it. Most of the time previously I would just let the call go to voicemail.

I sometimes get the other end of the "scam" call. As part of my job, I have to call customers to let them know their orders are ready, or to follow up on their order a week or so after they pick it up. I had one customer, who was originally from Vietnam I think she said, who I had to call to let her know her order was ready. She of course didn't recognize the number I was calling from, so when she answered she started to scream loudly in her native language. I just sat and laughed to myself for a few seconds before trying to state who I was, and why and where I was calling from. She calmed down and aplogized once she saw who I was. She knew who I was, having dealt with her in person in the store. I've had a few other customers answer irately before realizing who was calling and that we had previously done business, but that one takes the cake. One of these times I'm going to say I'm calling about your car's warranty just to see what kind of reaction I get, but that might get me in trouble.

This is an interesting way. But I just don't answer the phone with unknown numbers.

I'm lucky to live in an area code that is different than my number's. So while I usually will not answer a call if it is "unknown," if it is from the local area code I usually answer.

And about weekly I will go through and block all of the numbers that were junk.

Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2022, 02:55:21 PMMy phone now includes a Google call screener, that will play a script explainning that I am using a call screening service, and for the caller to state wheren they are calling from and reason for calling. I have yet to have one caller continue with the call after using it. Most of the time previously I would just let the call go to voicemail.

A lot of those are robocalls and not programmed to answer your question.

Quote from: Big John on April 09, 2024, 11:31:40 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2022, 02:55:21 PMMy phone now includes a Google call screener, that will play a script explainning that I am using a call screening service, and for the caller to state wheren they are calling from and reason for calling. I have yet to have one caller continue with the call after using it. Most of the time previously I would just let the call go to voicemail.

A lot of those are robocalls and not programmed to answer your question.

Ugh, just imagine when they get text to speech good enough that you can hook an LLM up to it.

Unfortunately, scammers are getting more sophisticated, and it can be harder to stay ahead of them.