Florida

[edwaleni]

I've mentioned it before but I'll say it again, damn florida has tons and tons of Troopers along I-10 in the panhandle. I think this stretch of interstate has to be the heaviest patrolled I've ever experienced though I haven't really been north east or north west at all. But I've traveled I-10 in NW florida about 5 times now and each time I spot dozens of police driving, hiding out, or conducting a traffic stop. Is there a high rate of crashes here?

Florida Highway Patrol and county Sheriffs just like to fleece speeders, find drunk drivers, and check truckers. Expect one speed trap every 30-45 minutes, or anywhere there might be construction.

(Psst...they can't write anything but a warning for 5 or less over the limit, unless it's a work or school zone.)

I think the only other place else with a high rate of patrolmen is the Indiana Toll Road.

Florida has drastically cut down its speed traps the last couple years as speed traps have been found to be systemically racist. I used to remember cops sitting with laser guns on the side of the road all the time, and now, I honestly can't even remember the last time I've seen that. Now they're usually more in the "BOLO" stance without just staring at the number on a speed detection device and they don't seem to be pulling people over generally for 10 over anymore.... I mean you wiz by much faster then the rest of traffic they'll get you, but if you're 1-2mph faster then everyone else, much officers/departments seem to no longer care anymore. They're a lot more into drunk drivers and truckers now. My understanding is the previous incentive system based on number of tickets has been replaced by one based on number of DUIs

Except around Tallahassee, I-10 is one of the most boring drives across Florida.  The problem is that it is almost completely bordered by forests. There are few billboards and even the rural exits have little businesses. Because of this people drive very fast across it to reduce the time and boredom.

I have driven the deserts of the west, the interminable flat land of west Kansas and across the salt flats, but I find this a tougher drive because there is very little for your eye to take on when driving. And because the forests are right up to the ROW fence line, you can't see anything beyond it.

That leaves you 2 choices, speed or turn up your stereo to keep & maintain your attention level.

Also "flashing of headlights" to warn of patrols ahead is illegal in Florida now. So when I-10 was busy with patrols, there was always a lot of flashing going on, but that has stopped when the law was changed (stupidly I might ask).

[Jaxrunner]

I've driven that stretch of I 10 between Jacksonville and the pandhandle numerous times. I too have noticed FHP pulling people over around Tallahassee. I honestly think I 10 should raise the speed limit to 75 like Texas and maybe raise it to see 80 like west Texas. There really isn't much local traffic on I 10 outside of Pensacola, Tallahassee, and Jacksonville. The highway is a nice drive although I would like to see 6 lanes expanded in parts.

[D-Dey65]

Personally, I think the area through Osceola State Forest is kind of fascinating, including near the Olustee Battlefield Historic State Park. Mainly due to the National Forest obtuse inverted trapezoid signs at the rest areas and the retractable signs on the BGS's at Exit 324.


Getting back to I-4 for the moment, I keep thinking Florida SR 546 used to be part of that route until it was extended east of Lakeland in 1960. I also know that for years what is now Exit 28 used to have only an eastbound exit and westbound entrance. The trouble is, there's no coverage of it on Historic Aerials (as good as they often are) between 1944 and 1962, and I really haven't found that much on the opening of the segment between Plant City and Lakeland in 1959.

[02 Park Ave]

What is the status regarding Florida's Turnpike joining E-ZPass?  Their announcement stated that it would take place by the end of the year.

[1995hoo]

....

Also "flashing of headlights" to warn of patrols ahead is illegal in Florida now. So when I-10 was busy with patrols, there was always a lot of flashing going on, but that has stopped when the law was changed (stupidly I might ask).

Highly questionable whether that law is actually enforceable due to First Amendment issues.

[formulanone]

....

Also "flashing of headlights" to warn of patrols ahead is illegal in Florida now. So when I-10 was busy with patrols, there was always a lot of flashing going on, but that has stopped when the law was changed (stupidly I might ask).

Highly questionable whether that law is actually enforceable due to First Amendment issues.

I think there's an extremely wide gray area between "hey, there's an accident/deer up ahead, I'll warn them" and "that driver is a psychotic distraction" to be enforceable.

[democratic nole]

I saw that video posted on Sept. 25 about the Selmon Expressway extension over Gandy Blvd along with some recents photos.
https://selmonextension.com/photos/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43a31olSdtY

This project is so peak-Florida: an elevataed two-lane (because, you know we can't do 4, even though places like LA can) toll road (because again, residents here have been lied to so they think that freeway capacity can't be done without tolls) that would likely be functionally obsolete within 5 years of opening.

[UCFKnights]

I saw that video posted on Sept. 25 about the Selmon Expressway extension over Gandy Blvd along with some recents photos.
https://selmonextension.com/photos/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43a31olSdtY

This project is so peak-Florida: an elevataed two-lane (because, you know we can't do 4, even though places like LA can) toll road (because again, residents here have been lied to so they think that freeway capacity can't be done without tolls) that would likely be functionally obsolete within 5 years of opening.

LA is no doubt a bigger city. I think the elevated express lanes significantly improved the traffic massively in that area. These tolled express lanes have proven to be extremely popular among Floridians, with satisfaction among both sides of the political isle along with a profit being turned and increasing average travel speed of both free/standard lanes and the express lanes. Additional freeway capacity needs funding from somewhere, and optional express tolls have proven much more popular then additional mainline tolls, raising the gas tax, increasing vehicle fees, increasing property taxes, or charging a transportation sales tax, which are the other alternatives that other areas do to avoid tolls. Since the express lanes feel entirely optional and its a price to save a couple of minutes, pretty much everyone seems satisfied with them, whereas every other alternative will force someone to pay who really doesn't want to.

[democratic nole]

I saw that video posted on Sept. 25 about the Selmon Expressway extension over Gandy Blvd along with some recents photos.
https://selmonextension.com/photos/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43a31olSdtY

This project is so peak-Florida: an elevataed two-lane (because, you know we can't do 4, even though places like LA can) toll road (because again, residents here have been lied to so they think that freeway capacity can't be done without tolls) that would likely be functionally obsolete within 5 years of opening.

LA is no doubt a bigger city. I think the elevated express lanes significantly improved the traffic massively in that area. These tolled express lanes have proven to be extremely popular among Floridians, with satisfaction among both sides of the political isle along with a profit being turned and increasing average travel speed of both free/standard lanes and the express lanes. Additional freeway capacity needs funding from somewhere, and optional express tolls have proven much more popular then additional mainline tolls, raising the gas tax, increasing vehicle fees, increasing property taxes, or charging a transportation sales tax, which are the other alternatives that other areas do to avoid tolls. Since the express lanes feel entirely optional and its a price to save a couple of minutes, pretty much everyone seems satisfied with them, whereas every other alternative will force someone to pay who really doesn't want to.

A couple of things:
-- The Gateway Express, right across the bridge in St. Pete, will have a four-lane elevated portion over 118th. There's really no excuse for Tampa's failure to plan for the future. I haven't been against the project, but it is typical Florida roadbuilding: decades late, overpriced, and functionally obsolete almost from the start.
-- I am not sure where you are getting the information that express tolls typically poll well. As an example: https://www.planetizen.com/news/2019/01/102511-big-surprise-congestion-pricing-tolls-dont-poll-well. The answer is it really depends on the community. Even in Florida, express tolls have not been well-received. Tampa has blocked their installation on 275 for about five years now (city council even unanimously voted against any tolls on interstates within the city) and Miami has pushed back against express toll lanes. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/traffic/article237883019.html. The M-CORES plan to add a bunch of new toll roads polls very poorly. https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/politics/2020/10/22/exclusive-spectrum-news-ipsos-poll-expanding-florida-toll-road-system
-- Toll roads in many cases do not make a profit. For example, the Suncoast Pkwy. has consistently failed to meet revenue projections and been a drain on the budget. https://www.tampabay.com/news/growth/getting-it-wrong-suncoast-parkway-set-to-expand-even-as-it-fails-to-meet/2264338/
-- When toll roads go belly up, it is taxpayers overall that are stuck holding the bag. https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/69/6932.asp

[UCFKnights]

I saw that video posted on Sept. 25 about the Selmon Expressway extension over Gandy Blvd along with some recents photos.
https://selmonextension.com/photos/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43a31olSdtY

This project is so peak-Florida: an elevataed two-lane (because, you know we can't do 4, even though places like LA can) toll road (because again, residents here have been lied to so they think that freeway capacity can't be done without tolls) that would likely be functionally obsolete within 5 years of opening.

LA is no doubt a bigger city. I think the elevated express lanes significantly improved the traffic massively in that area. These tolled express lanes have proven to be extremely popular among Floridians, with satisfaction among both sides of the political isle along with a profit being turned and increasing average travel speed of both free/standard lanes and the express lanes. Additional freeway capacity needs funding from somewhere, and optional express tolls have proven much more popular then additional mainline tolls, raising the gas tax, increasing vehicle fees, increasing property taxes, or charging a transportation sales tax, which are the other alternatives that other areas do to avoid tolls. Since the express lanes feel entirely optional and its a price to save a couple of minutes, pretty much everyone seems satisfied with them, whereas every other alternative will force someone to pay who really doesn't want to.

A couple of things:
-- The Gateway Express, right across the bridge in St. Pete, will have a four-lane elevated portion over 118th. There's really no excuse for Tampa's failure to plan for the future. I haven't been against the project, but it is typical Florida roadbuilding: decades late, overpriced, and functionally obsolete almost from the start.
-- I am not sure where you are getting the information that express tolls typically poll well. As an example: https://www.planetizen.com/news/2019/01/102511-big-surprise-congestion-pricing-tolls-dont-poll-well. The answer is it really depends on the community. Even in Florida, express tolls have not been well-received. Tampa has blocked their installation on 275 for about five years now (city council even unanimously voted against any tolls on interstates within the city) and Miami has pushed back against express toll lanes. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/traffic/article237883019.html. The M-CORES plan to add a bunch of new toll roads polls very poorly. https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/politics/2020/10/22/exclusive-spectrum-news-ipsos-poll-expanding-florida-toll-road-system
-- Toll roads in many cases do not make a profit. For example, the Suncoast Pkwy. has consistently failed to meet revenue projections and been a drain on the budget. https://www.tampabay.com/news/growth/getting-it-wrong-suncoast-parkway-set-to-expand-even-as-it-fails-to-meet/2264338/
-- When toll roads go belly up, it is taxpayers overall that are stuck holding the bag. https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/69/6932.asp

Your Seattle example had congestion pricing opposed by 61% of people, vs 73% opposed to toll the entire road. They didn't survey other funding options, such as increasing sales tax, property taxes, or gas taxes. Any time you increase fees the vast majority people oppose that, especially if the question is presented without context.

No roads that are not toll roads make a profit at all, ever. Just as you're saying taxpayers are stuck holding the bag if the tolls go belly up, taxpayers are ALSO stuck holding the bag if there is no tolls at all installed on a roadway.

To prove your point, we'd need to do a poll asking the question not based on popularity, but based on a choice of alternatives:

In order to fund 2 new lanes on your city's congested highway, would you prefer it be funded by:
- Tolls only on 2 new express ways while the existing lanes remain free
- Tolls (with lower rates) installed on ALL lanes of the freeway with NO free lanes
- Increasing property taxes, and thus rents, within the area to fund the project
- Increasing the sales tax within the area to fund the project
- Increasing gas taxes within the area to fund the project

My guess is the results would mirror the order I posted them in order of preference, but all choices would be unpopular. Obviously having it funded by magic or by some tax that I don't have to pay would be everyone's first choice. And a no-build alternative would vary completely on every project and how much each person uses said roadway.

[democratic nole]

I saw that video posted on Sept. 25 about the Selmon Expressway extension over Gandy Blvd along with some recents photos.
https://selmonextension.com/photos/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43a31olSdtY

This project is so peak-Florida: an elevataed two-lane (because, you know we can't do 4, even though places like LA can) toll road (because again, residents here have been lied to so they think that freeway capacity can't be done without tolls) that would likely be functionally obsolete within 5 years of opening.

LA is no doubt a bigger city. I think the elevated express lanes significantly improved the traffic massively in that area. These tolled express lanes have proven to be extremely popular among Floridians, with satisfaction among both sides of the political isle along with a profit being turned and increasing average travel speed of both free/standard lanes and the express lanes. Additional freeway capacity needs funding from somewhere, and optional express tolls have proven much more popular then additional mainline tolls, raising the gas tax, increasing vehicle fees, increasing property taxes, or charging a transportation sales tax, which are the other alternatives that other areas do to avoid tolls. Since the express lanes feel entirely optional and its a price to save a couple of minutes, pretty much everyone seems satisfied with them, whereas every other alternative will force someone to pay who really doesn't want to.

A couple of things:
-- The Gateway Express, right across the bridge in St. Pete, will have a four-lane elevated portion over 118th. There's really no excuse for Tampa's failure to plan for the future. I haven't been against the project, but it is typical Florida roadbuilding: decades late, overpriced, and functionally obsolete almost from the start.
-- I am not sure where you are getting the information that express tolls typically poll well. As an example: https://www.planetizen.com/news/2019/01/102511-big-surprise-congestion-pricing-tolls-dont-poll-well. The answer is it really depends on the community. Even in Florida, express tolls have not been well-received. Tampa has blocked their installation on 275 for about five years now (city council even unanimously voted against any tolls on interstates within the city) and Miami has pushed back against express toll lanes. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/traffic/article237883019.html. The M-CORES plan to add a bunch of new toll roads polls very poorly. https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/politics/2020/10/22/exclusive-spectrum-news-ipsos-poll-expanding-florida-toll-road-system
-- Toll roads in many cases do not make a profit. For example, the Suncoast Pkwy. has consistently failed to meet revenue projections and been a drain on the budget. https://www.tampabay.com/news/growth/getting-it-wrong-suncoast-parkway-set-to-expand-even-as-it-fails-to-meet/2264338/
-- When toll roads go belly up, it is taxpayers overall that are stuck holding the bag. https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/69/6932.asp

Your Seattle example had congestion pricing opposed by 61% of people, vs 73% opposed to toll the entire road. They didn't survey other funding options, such as increasing sales tax, property taxes, or gas taxes. Any time you increase fees the vast majority people oppose that, especially if the question is presented without context.

No roads that are not toll roads make a profit at all, ever. Just as you're saying taxpayers are stuck holding the bag if the tolls go belly up, taxpayers are ALSO stuck holding the bag if there is no tolls at all installed on a roadway.

To prove your point, we'd need to do a poll asking the question not based on popularity, but based on a choice of alternatives:

In order to fund 2 new lanes on your city's congested highway, would you prefer it be funded by:
- Tolls only on 2 new express ways while the existing lanes remain free
- Tolls (with lower rates) installed on ALL lanes of the freeway with NO free lanes
- Increasing property taxes, and thus rents, within the area to fund the project
- Increasing the sales tax within the area to fund the project
- Increasing gas taxes within the area to fund the project

My guess is the results would mirror the order I posted them in order of preference, but all choices would be unpopular. Obviously having it funded by magic or by some tax that I don't have to pay would be everyone's first choice. And a no-build alternative would vary completely on every project and how much each person uses said roadway.

Doing my best to avoid the political discussion on this because that's not really the point of this forum.

Plenty of states have had no issues raising the gasoline tax to fund these projects. My personal opinion is that gasoline taxes are preferable because they are more equitable, being paid by all drivers, and if done correctly, deliver much broader based funding than tolls. I also think VMT is a creative and equitable idea, but one that is politically unpopular. The Selmon extension is not indicative, but the problem with many of these express toll lane projects is that DOT's are often taking away free travel lanes to install express lanes and even doing things like narrowing the free lanes to slow speeds and thus induce more drivers to take the toll lanes.

There's certainly a place for express toll lanes in the scope of overall transportation improvements, but their use is becoming far too widespread without a holistic analysis of their costs and benefits.

[Plutonic Panda]

I always find it interesting how many in some states like Florida and Colorado claim new roads or lanes can't be built without tolls yet California, Utah, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Nevada, and tons of other states somehow find ways to do it. Yes in some cases they build toll roads and toll lanes but florida is out of control with their toll road bullshit. It's mental.

[RoadPelican]

I always find it interesting how many in some states like Florida and Colorado claim new roads or lanes can't be built without tolls yet California, Utah, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Nevada, and tons of other states somehow find ways to do it. Yes in some cases they build toll roads and toll lanes but florida is out of control with their toll road bullshit. It's mental.

I agree with you about Florida being out of control with toll roads, but consider FL has no income tax, no motor vehicle property tax and a very low $35-$40 annual vehicle registration fee, the money has to come from somewhere! With the exception of a few years around 2005-2010 (the fee was raised to around $55 then lowered a few years later) the vehicle registration fee has not been raised since the 1980's!!!

A few solutions:

1) FDOT should not force anti-toll cities such as (Jacksonville-Duval County) to take on toll projects.  FDOT should be more receptive to using county/local sales tax money.

2) The State Legislature should allow cities/counties to use their tourism tax revenues for roads, currently they are NOT allowed.

3) Tourists to Florida are taxed on Rental Cars, Hotel Rooms and general sales tax, but I think an amusement tax should be added as well for (theme parks, museums, putt putt golf, bowling, etc).  They have this in Myrtle Beach and it's used to help pay for the roads.  Disney keeps raising their prices and the tourists keep coming!

4) A small boost (no more than $10) in the annual Vehicle Registration Fee could be acceptable to the public if a list of road projects is presented that the money would go towards.

[formulanone]

I agree with you about Florida being out of control with toll roads, but consider FL has no income tax, no motor vehicle property tax and a very low $35-$40 annual vehicle registration fee, the money has to come from somewhere! With the exception of a few years around 2005-2010 (the fee was raised to around $55 then lowered a few years later) the vehicle registration fee has not been raised since the 1980's!!!

Vehicle registration fees in Florida are quite cheap compared to other states, though it's based on vehicle weight classes. So a small car pays less than a minivan or light-duty truck.

[democratic nole]

I agree with you about Florida being out of control with toll roads, but consider FL has no income tax, no motor vehicle property tax and a very low $35-$40 annual vehicle registration fee, the money has to come from somewhere! With the exception of a few years around 2005-2010 (the fee was raised to around $55 then lowered a few years later) the vehicle registration fee has not been raised since the 1980's!!!

Vehicle registration fees in Florida are quite cheap compared to other states, though it's based on vehicle weight classes. So a small car pays less than a minivan or light-duty truck.

I am a little surprised they never went to an ad valorem system, given the amount of expensive vehicles they could recoup revenue on for registration, but such a practice is actually banned by the Florida Constitution.

One of the biggest funding challenges that local governments have in Florida is the insane restrictions placed on them by the state. There are limits to the sales taxes, gas taxes, and other taxes that cities and counties can levy. For example, Florida municipalities cannot levy a local sales tax; only counties can do that. I think it is unfortunate that if residents of, say Broward County, wish to levy a 50 cent per gallon gasoline tax, they do not have the option of doing so.

[formulanone]

I agree with you about Florida being out of control with toll roads, but consider FL has no income tax, no motor vehicle property tax and a very low $35-$40 annual vehicle registration fee, the money has to come from somewhere! With the exception of a few years around 2005-2010 (the fee was raised to around $55 then lowered a few years later) the vehicle registration fee has not been raised since the 1980's!!!

Vehicle registration fees in Florida are quite cheap compared to other states, though it's based on vehicle weight classes. So a small car pays less than a minivan or light-duty truck.

I am a little surprised they never went to an ad valorem system, given the amount of expensive vehicles they could recoup revenue on for registration, but such a practice is actually banned by the Florida Constitution.

One of the biggest funding challenges that local governments have in Florida is the insane restrictions placed on them by the state. There are limits to the sales taxes, gas taxes, and other taxes that cities and counties can levy. For example, Florida municipalities cannot levy a local sales tax; only counties can do that. I think it is unfortunate that if residents of, say Broward County, wish to levy a 50 cent per gallon gasoline tax, they do not have the option of doing so.

Back in the early-1990s, Florida had a short-lived $250-500 "impact fee" on out-of-state vehicles which were later registered in the state. I think it got repealed around 1994-95.

It was an obviously unfair tax onto the increasing population of Northeasterners settling in the area. Not sure if dealership lobby groups thought that one out, or if lawmakers just thought retirees just had a lot of extra money lying around, because there really aren't that many sizable cities over the border of the Sunshine State to purchase vehicles. Besides, they can recoup lost sales tax if you even leave the county to save 1% on your next vehicle.

[D-Dey65]

Back in the early-1990s, Florida had a short-lived $250-500 "impact fee" on out-of-state vehicles which were later registered in the state. I think it got repealed around 1994-95.

Mayor De Blasio should take a lesson from that.

[roadman65]

https://floridasturnpike.com/turnpike-projects/major-projects/central-polk-parkway/polk-parkway-to-us-17/

Looks like the Central Polk Parkway is about to be built.

http://kisingercampo.com/portfolios/central-polk-parkway-from-polk-parkway-to-sr-35-fdot-floridas-turnpike-enterprise-polk-county-fl/

[btl1016]

I drove the FL Turnpike in south Orange County today and the new flyover ramps to SR-417 still aren't open yet even though the bridges have been structurally complete for the last 4 months now. Also not sure what's the holdup on the Turnpike widening project from the Orlando South Interchange-Osceola Pkwy either. They finished up the last of the mainline bridge widening over Central Florida Parkway and the CSX rail tracks a few months ago, but I haven't seen them working on anything else since.

[roadman65]

The Ellis Road interchange in West Melbourne, FL is been open a while now, but with same control cities as US 192.

[edwaleni]

I always find it interesting how many in some states like Florida and Colorado claim new roads or lanes can't be built without tolls yet California, Utah, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Nevada, and tons of other states somehow find ways to do it. Yes in some cases they build toll roads and toll lanes but florida is out of control with their toll road bullshit. It's mental.

I agree with you about Florida being out of control with toll roads, but consider FL has no income tax, no motor vehicle property tax and a very low $35-$40 annual vehicle registration fee, the money has to come from somewhere! With the exception of a few years around 2005-2010 (the fee was raised to around $55 then lowered a few years later) the vehicle registration fee has not been raised since the 1980's!!!

A few solutions:

1) FDOT should not force anti-toll cities such as (Jacksonville-Duval County) to take on toll projects.  FDOT should be more receptive to using county/local sales tax money.

2) The State Legislature should allow cities/counties to use their tourism tax revenues for roads, currently they are NOT allowed.

3) Tourists to Florida are taxed on Rental Cars, Hotel Rooms and general sales tax, but I think an amusement tax should be added as well for (theme parks, museums, putt putt golf, bowling, etc).  They have this in Myrtle Beach and it's used to help pay for the roads.  Disney keeps raising their prices and the tourists keep coming!

4) A small boost (no more than $10) in the annual Vehicle Registration Fee could be acceptable to the public if a list of road projects is presented that the money would go towards.

Jacksonville is an anti-toll bridge town. Those were removed back in the 1990's.

They are building tolled express lanes now and the First Coast Expressway will be tolled (FL-23)

The tolled express lanes are for the purpose of increasing the cost of moving faster through the metro area. This will justify the extended use of transit.

Sounds counter productive, but in plain terms they can justify the cost of transit by increasing the cost of driving overall. In fact Jacksonville just got a $875k grant from the Feds to acquire land for the new transit train stations being built.

As for the tourism taxes, the locals have been using them to build yet more stadiums, convention centers and the like. Some of the smallest towns in Florida have convention centers. Orlando plows theirs into the Citrus Bowl (used by UCF and state football) with the idea they will eventually get an NFL franchise, Jacksonville has plowed *alot* of hotel taxes into their football stadium to prop up the Jaguars and the annual Florida-Georgia game. But it hasn't helped at New Years as the bowl game there has been demoted over the years to where it will never host a FCS Championship (though they try every year to get it). They tried to host the ACC Championship but found out if Florida State wasn't there, no one would come.

But as of right now, economically, road building or road enhancement is the #1 economic engine in northeast Florida. In 2019 alone it went over $1 billion spent.

[formulanone]

The Ellis Road interchange in West Melbourne, FL is been open a while now, but with same control cities as US 192.

I was hoping for a mention of SR 508.

[UCFKnights]

I always find it interesting how many in some states like Florida and Colorado claim new roads or lanes can't be built without tolls yet California, Utah, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Nevada, and tons of other states somehow find ways to do it. Yes in some cases they build toll roads and toll lanes but florida is out of control with their toll road bullshit. It's mental.

I agree with you about Florida being out of control with toll roads, but consider FL has no income tax, no motor vehicle property tax and a very low $35-$40 annual vehicle registration fee, the money has to come from somewhere! With the exception of a few years around 2005-2010 (the fee was raised to around $55 then lowered a few years later) the vehicle registration fee has not been raised since the 1980's!!!

A few solutions:

1) FDOT should not force anti-toll cities such as (Jacksonville-Duval County) to take on toll projects.  FDOT should be more receptive to using county/local sales tax money.

2) The State Legislature should allow cities/counties to use their tourism tax revenues for roads, currently they are NOT allowed.

3) Tourists to Florida are taxed on Rental Cars, Hotel Rooms and general sales tax, but I think an amusement tax should be added as well for (theme parks, museums, putt putt golf, bowling, etc).  They have this in Myrtle Beach and it's used to help pay for the roads.  Disney keeps raising their prices and the tourists keep coming!

4) A small boost (no more than $10) in the annual Vehicle Registration Fee could be acceptable to the public if a list of road projects is presented that the money would go towards.

Jacksonville is an anti-toll bridge town. Those were removed back in the 1990's.

They are building tolled express lanes now and the First Coast Expressway will be tolled (FL-23)

The tolled express lanes are for the purpose of increasing the cost of moving faster through the metro area. This will justify the extended use of transit.

Sounds counter productive, but in plain terms they can justify the cost of transit by increasing the cost of driving overall. In fact Jacksonville just got a $875k grant from the Feds to acquire land for the new transit train stations being built.

As for the tourism taxes, the locals have been using them to build yet more stadiums, convention centers and the like. Some of the smallest towns in Florida have convention centers. Orlando plows theirs into the Citrus Bowl (used by UCF and state football) with the idea they will eventually get an NFL franchise, Jacksonville has plowed *alot* of hotel taxes into their football stadium to prop up the Jaguars and the annual Florida-Georgia game. But it hasn't helped at New Years as the bowl game there has been demoted over the years to where it will never host a FCS Championship (though they try every year to get it). They tried to host the ACC Championship but found out if Florida State wasn't there, no one would come.

But as of right now, economically, road building or road enhancement is the #1 economic engine in northeast Florida. In 2019 alone it went over $1 billion spent.

UCF hasn't used the Citrus Bowl since 06, 15 years now. The Citrus Bowl has no permanent tenant, and I really wish they'd redirect the funds elsewhere. The city/county keep claiming the renovations are worth it due to its economic impact, but they seem to throw so much into it for something that sits empty 99% of the time.

Speaking of transit, I don't think its a coincidence that Florida is the only state in the nation where we have a privately funded and operated mass transit system in the US (Brightline) and we've had another one proposed, while everyone else gets nothing. I think fundamentally, one of the toughest things for alternative transportation to overcome is the massive underestimates people have on the cost of driving and its infrastructure. Hiding the costs of driving and infrastructure into sales tax, property tax, income tax, vehicle registration fees, and other indirect and often mandatory fees not associated with the actual amount of driving makes it a lot tougher to warrant taking a train... I'm gonna have to pay the roadway sales tax when I buy my train ticket! I still have to pay my vehicle registration fee, all sunk costs.

The two infrastructure fees that people correctly associate with the quantity of driving are tolls and the gas tax. If I drive from Orlando to Miami, I know I pay approximately $20 in tolls and $30 in gas (approximately 25 cents a mile). I don't know how much the cost was in the oil change, tires, brakes, repairs, etc... and I know I can allocate $0 towards the trip in the vehicle registration fee, road sales tax, etc because I would have paid them anyways. Even with that, according to the government's estimated cost of driving per mile, I'm supposedly underestimating by 100%!

And then why is it fair or desirable to push more of the fees to those who aren't actually using the roads, or might be using alternative transportation?

I'd rather Florida be "out of control" by installing express lanes and toll roads rather than the backwardness of other states creating incentives to buy "green" vehicles and then promptly putting an extra fee on the annual registration fee for those vehicles because they evade the gas tax.

[hotdogPi]

The two infrastructure fees that people correctly associate with the quantity of driving are tolls and the gas tax. If I drive from Orlando to Miami, I know I pay approximately $20 in tolls and $30 in gas (approximately 25 cents a mile). I don't know how much the cost was in the oil change, tires, brakes, repairs, etc... and I know I can allocate $0 towards the trip in the vehicle registration fee, road sales tax, etc because I would have paid them anyways. Even with that, according to the government's estimated cost of driving per mile, I'm supposedly underestimating by 100%!

Assuming 59¢ per mile on a non-toll road, that would be 34¢ per mile for maintenance and depreciation combined. However, 59¢ assumes a typical fuel efficiency vehicle, and ($2.25/gal) / (15¢/mi) = a very low 15 MPG, which would bring the total cost per mile higher, and therefore the maintenance + depreciation cost higher.

[Jim]

I've now done the Baldwin bypass both ways.  It's not on the level of the Starke bypass as far as being a time saver, but it's nice to have it.

I was amazed this afternoon by the cars with mid-Atlantic and northeastern plates who were stacked up to get onto I-10 EB from US 301 NB.  I've preferred US 301 between Baldwin and Yulee for years, even before the 4-laning of most of it.  It's at least as fast and only a fraction as stressful as I-10/I-295/I-95 around Jax.  Callahan's really the only remaining slowdown, and that's minimal.