Wisconsin notes

[merrycilantro]

^^Good point.

In regards to the unbuilt freeways, I have sort of mixed feelings. Some of it was probably overkill but like the Belt Freeway would be nice to have now, although maybe perhaps it would have further facilitated Urban Flight to Waukesha...something like the Bay Freeway could have maybe been an expressway, not necessarily up to freeway standards...I could go on but I'll stop there. Maybe look for/create a fictional board on that subject

So is Hawley for sure being removed?

[midwesternroadguy]

You lost me at "If your main goal is to go I-94 from Madison to Chicago..."  No one would do that.

I-94 should go through the center of Milwaukee.  That is what most urban interstates do.  Bypasses "bypass" the city center.

I agree on two counts, I-94 should remain on its current alignment to downtown Milwaukee, and that if one were traveling to Madison to the Loop in Chicago that they would take I-90 to do that.  However, if one is traveling to Lake County/North Shore from Madison, one would go through Milwaukee on I-94 to do that, hence there is some use for the directional signage for Madison-to-Chicagoland trips. 

[SEWIGuy]

Milwaukee really only lacks one major highway item...a northern connection between I-41 and I-43.  All those other planned freeways would have been overkill.  It is an exceedingly easy city to get around, and through, with the current set up plus expansion and improvement.  I travel often for my job and see what other cities have to deal with.  Milwaukee is a breeze in comparison.

[merrycilantro]

^^agreed. The Northern Connection would be helpful..even if they had to push it to Wis-60. You look at Google Maps and basically the right angle of Wis 60 and Wis 164 make a decent beltway, then you have Wis 100. The Stadium Freeway would have totally been overkill. And basically Capitol Dr (Wis 190) with its current setup is basically a makeshift "Bay Freeway" if you will...only a "Bay Freeway" John Norquist and other NIMBYs would have approved of, or at the very least tolerated...going to the Wis 16 connection.

Upon further thought, I'm actually embarrassed I brought up the notion of routing 94 around the bypass.

[GeekJedi]

I would like to see an "outer" belt line around Milwaukee someday, though it's a pipe-dream. Something perhaps just north of the Milwaukee/Racine county line that swings out west, then circles north across the Rock Freeway then I-94 then swings back east through Washington and Ozaukee counties - over I-41 and meeting up with I-43.

Not totally needed, and impossible to build, but it would be a nice addition!

[FightingIrish]

The outer beltway idea was floated a long time ago. In fact, the beginning of an Interchange with 41/45 in Washington County was established. But considering how land values have shot up along the whole route, it would most definitely be impossible to build. It would have been convenient for commercial truck traffic passing Milwaukee, but that's why I-41 was designated.

As for the northern crosstown freeway, that probably should have been built. Capitol Drive works somewhat, but there are tons of traffic signals along that street through some rather sketchy neighborhoods (not that it really bothers me). I don't recommend it for driving across the north side. Good Hope (which in some parts is almost an expressway) and Brown Deer are far better, with honorable mention going to Silver Spring.

[Big John]

The outer beltway idea was floated a long time ago. In fact, the beginning of an Interchange with 41/45 in Washington County was established. But considering how land values have shot up along the whole route, it would most definitely be impossible to build.

That is why the Lannon, oops I meant Mequon Rd, bridge over I-41 is so long.  It was built to accommodate the ramps for this outer freeway.

[colinstu]

The outer beltway idea was floated a long time ago. In fact, the beginning of an Interchange with 41/45 in Washington County was established. But considering how land values have shot up along the whole route, it would most definitely be impossible to build.

That is why the Lannon Rd bridge over I-41 is so long.  It was built to accommodate the ramps for this outer freeway.

Hmm? The bridge doesn't look any different to me than any other diamond interchange..

[Big John]

The outer beltway idea was floated a long time ago. In fact, the beginning of an Interchange with 41/45 in Washington County was established. But considering how land values have shot up along the whole route, it would most definitely be impossible to build.

That is why the Lannon Rd bridge over I-41 is so long.  It was built to accommodate the ramps for this outer freeway.

Hmm? The bridge doesn't look any different to me than any other diamond interchange..

Sorry, got my roads mixed up.  I meant the Mequon Rd bridge. (The 2 roads meeting then the extension of one of them messes me up)

[colinstu]

Ah that makes a lot of sense now.. I've wondered about that before. It looks like you could fit C-D lanes through there but never knew why.

[Big John]

In that since, the the bridge on I-43 southbound at the WI 57 split by Saukville is very high because it was meant to be a 3rd-level bridge as the Stadium North freeway was supposed to end there too.

[triplemultiplex]

I frequently used Silver Spring to FdL Ave for my many trips between the east side of Milwaukee and points northwest during the afternoon rush.  The little interchanges cut down the number of lights you need to pass through.

[GeekJedi]

Yeah, I've done that one many times. It's not bad, though it can be tight in a few spots between Teutonia and FdL Ave.

[mrsman]

This might sound a little fiction-ish and I assure you it's not intended...but...way back when John Norquist suggested to re-route I-94 onto current day I-894, drop 894 and extend I-794 along current day I-94 (or turn it into an urban boulevard or whatever it was)...It almost sort of makes sense to me...It would seem that if, at the Zoo, I-94 goes along the bypass and completely just obliterates I-894, it would make a little sense and...okay hear me out:

If your main goal is to go I-94 from Madison to Chicago...aside from alternate routes, if you were set on traveling I-94 thru Milwaukee, You'd want to take the bypass anyways to stay tf away from Downtown anyway. Unless you have a reason to go Downtown, having I-94 route through (or corner-nip as it were) Downtown, an extension of I-794 would be just fine for that purpose, and still fall within guidelines. Looking at Google Maps, my (very uneducated mind you) brain sees potential to expand perhaps a little more than say the congested corridor in question. I-894 has become a bit of an excess number anyways, people on here have been talking about ditching it, or why don't they ditch it, the "Will-They-Won't-They" of the I-41 Thread, you know after the "Will-They-Won't-They" extend I-55...we all needed something else to surmise...

It's just, the more I thought about it, the more it (seemingly) makes sense to do it that way. Everyone will end up in the same place anyway...now I know what some might be thinking, okay so they have *and i'm paraphrasing here* "To Chicago Follow Bypass"...the BGS's could be cleaned up a bit more (yeah i know i'm a little late for that considering they are updated now from the I-41 promotion)...I do realize there are incomplete interchanges on I-894 in the West Allis/Greenfield Areas, and it seems like they could even be remedied or even removed/replaced with another cross street.

Thoughts? And then also, My sincere apologies if this is fictional. It seems realistic in my head...

From the perspective of what makes sense as far as whether an interstate should be a 2di or a 3di, normally a 2di goes straight through a city and a 3di is the bypass.  The 2di will follow the shortest route, even though it may be busier going through the city center.

Milwaukee is unique because the I-94 routing goes from the west side of town to the south side of town, essentially making a 90 degree turn at the Marquette interchange.  To connect from the west side of town (Zoo) to the south side of town (Airport), the bypass routing actually has fewer miles.  So it certainly makes sense to have Zoo to Airport traffic and west suburbs to south suburbs traffic follow an I-94 routing around the bypass and not through Downtown Milwaukee.  The controls on the bypass will be Madison and Chicago.  So your proposal does have some merit.

Of course, Madison to Chicago traffic would not follow this at all since they would use I-90.  But some far northern Chicago suburban traffic could follow this routing to their benefit.  And yes, some people navigate by number alone so making the number on the route with fewer miles I-94 would be beneficial.

[GeekJedi]

The reality is that there is a difference of two miles between the two routes (894 being two miles shorter). I think it's a stretch to call making a change like that beneficial when the control cities are Milwaukee for I-94 and Chicago for I-894.

I also believe it to be a stretch that in this day and age where GPS navigation and online maps are so prevalent that we're seeing people navigate by number alone. They'd be foolish to.

[SEWIGuy]

Not to mention that there are tons of instances where taking the numbered route is longer than a short cut of some sort AND the BGSs at the west and south ends of I-894 use Chicago and Madison respectively as control cities.

[Mrt90]

You lost me at "If your main goal is to go I-94 from Madison to Chicago..."  No one would do that.

I-94 should go through the center of Milwaukee.  That is what most urban interstates do.  Bypasses "bypass" the city center.

Then why didn't they route I41 through downtown?  People already refer to 894 as "the bypass" so the bypass could have been 894/841 which I think would have been cleaner than to have I41 follow the "bypass".

[colinstu]

They need to eliminate I-894 entirely, it's a pointless concurrency now. It will be sad, I know, but there's no need for it now.

[GeekJedi]

You lost me at "If your main goal is to go I-94 from Madison to Chicago..."  No one would do that.

I-94 should go through the center of Milwaukee.  That is what most urban interstates do.  Bypasses "bypass" the city center.

Then why didn't they route I41 through downtown?  People already refer to 894 as "the bypass" so the bypass could have been 894/841 which I think would have been cleaner than to have I41 follow the "bypass".

They didn't do it because it would make no sense (and add traffic to an already congested segment of I-94).

[Mrt90]

You lost me at "If your main goal is to go I-94 from Madison to Chicago..."  No one would do that.

I-94 should go through the center of Milwaukee.  That is what most urban interstates do.  Bypasses "bypass" the city center.

Then why didn't they route I41 through downtown?  People already refer to 894 as "the bypass" so the bypass could have been 894/841 which I think would have been cleaner than to have I41 follow the "bypass".

They didn't do it because it would make no sense (and add traffic to an already congested segment of I-94).

Why would that add to traffic on I94?  People who are just passing through on I41 would follow the bypass, just like people just passing through on I94 follow the bypass now.  I'm just saying the same logic that puts I94 "through the center of Milwaukee" should apply to I41 as well.  Oh well, this is probably a very, very old debate.

[GeekJedi]

I get what you're saying, however it's kind of a "mixed metaphor" thing. When the system was designed, the intention was to have the main route go through the urban center, and the 3di to bypass it. However, that doesn't apply to *every* interstate, and certainly matters less these days (again, with the advent of GPS and online mapping.

[peterj920]

Right now if a traveler is going to Madison, it's better to take I-94 than I-894 because the ramp from I-894 north to I-94 west is closed.  When I was in the Milwaukee area I was surprised that I didn't see many VMS signs telling people to stay on I-94. 

If you look at Michigan, several 3 digit interstates actually go through the central city and the 2 digit bypasses the community, so I-94 could serve as a bypass.  I-496 in Lansing, I-475 in Flint, and I-675 in Saginaw go into the downtowns of these communities while the parent route is the bypass.  Shows that sometimes the opposite of the norm happens. 

[TheHighwayMan3561]

If you look at Michigan, several 3 digit interstates actually go through the central city and the 2 digit bypasses the community, so I-94 could serve as a bypass.  I-496 in Lansing, I-475 in Flint, and I-675 in Saginaw go into the downtowns of these communities while the parent route is the bypass.  Shows that sometimes the opposite of the norm happens. 

That's true, but he did say that it's not universal that the 2di goes through the city center (Des Moines and Tulsa might be two of the larger examples where the 3di goes downtown and the parent bypasses). Depends on the state policies and the natures of the cities involved.

[merrycilantro]

OK one more question about the I-94 segment between 35th and 70th St., when you guys say "at-grade"...what does that exactly mean? i know what at-grade is, like with railroad crossings or I suppose any other crossing, but in this instance what are we referring to?

[colinstu]

At the current grade it currently is (i.e. not Double decking it)