Wisconsin notes

[mvak36]

I'd be one of the first ones in that line. I'll be glad to see them gradually get rid of the existing signs out in the field.

Couple of points:

A) Clearview isn't necessarily "dead" yet. It's still being installed in many states, and the revocation of the interim approval is being challenged by AASHTO  (page 72)
B) It's gonna be a long time before they start getting rid of existing Clearview signage. Well-manufactured retro-reflective sign panels can last for decades.

Wisconsin may be dumping Clearview. Hooray for them! But Clearview isn't going out without a fight. This is the government, after all. Nothing happens fast.

I agree with everything you have said. I was a bit overzealous in my post. That's how much I hate Clearview lol.

[The Ghostbuster]

That portion of the beltline looks a lot better than it did before that segment was reconstructed. Now let's see how Phase 2 of the Verona Road reconstruction project bears out.

[Roadguy]

Old Transportation Secretary out, New Transportation Secretary coming on board:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/27/transportation-secretary-gottlieb-step-down/95877780/

Will be interesting to see how the new guy does... not exactly the same credentials as Gottlieb had as he was actually an engineer.

[SEWIGuy]

Booted cause he told the truth that Walker's road budget is a disaster.  Problems don't go away.  They just get worse.  And since borrowing is really cheap right now, it would make much more sense to lift the gas tax and spend more now.  When interest rates rise, its not going to be easy - especially with a backlog of projects to deal with.

[dvferyance]

Old Transportation Secretary out, New Transportation Secretary coming on board:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/27/transportation-secretary-gottlieb-step-down/95877780/

Will be interesting to see how the new guy does... not exactly the same credentials as Gottlieb had as he was actually an engineer.

This is great news. Hopefully the new secretary will spend money wisely on things that are needed instead of throwing it away on useless roundabouts and unnecessary sign replacements like Gottlieb did. I am very disappointed in Walker that he would hire such a train wreck of a DOT secretary and it took him 6 years to get rid of him.

[SEWIGuy]

Old Transportation Secretary out, New Transportation Secretary coming on board:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/27/transportation-secretary-gottlieb-step-down/95877780/

Will be interesting to see how the new guy does... not exactly the same credentials as Gottlieb had as he was actually an engineer.

This is great news. Hopefully the new secretary will spend money wisely on things that are needed instead of throwing it away on useless roundabouts and unnecessary sign replacements like Gottlieb did. I am very disappointed in Walker that he would hire such a train wreck of a DOT secretary and it took him 6 years to get rid of him.

You continue to show your ignorance by complaining about the small things while the large things are growing as problems.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/28/report-major-road-delays-store/95931678/?hootPostID=35696abedc3d06e6841c715e0e1d7b9b

"That study – done in house by the DOT – looked at what would happen over a decade if state officials didn't put more money toward roads. The answer: Major delays and worsening road conditions.

The miles of interstate, state and U.S. highways in Wisconsin in poor condition would more than double, from 21% of roads to 44% in 2027.

Additionally, major projects around the state would face delays of one to three years. The expansion of I-39/90 from the Illinois state line to Madison would take three years longer than currently planned and would likely force the state to give up a $40 million federal grant, the report found.

Once they did get going, projects would take longer than they have in the past. For instance, the north-south leg of I-94 would take more than 15 years. The project started in 2010 but has long been stalled and won't be completed until 2025 if current spending levels hold."


But hey....it's all about roundabounts right???

[GeekJedi]

This is great news. Hopefully the new secretary will spend money wisely on things that are needed instead of throwing it away on useless roundabouts and unnecessary sign replacements like Gottlieb did. I am very disappointed in Walker that he would hire such a train wreck of a DOT secretary and it took him 6 years to get rid of him.

What will be more fun to watch is the fact that nothing much will change in the way roads are built. There will still be plenty of roundabouts, signing projects, and projects (hint: you don't know as much as you think about how these things happen). There isn't anyone on Walker's team that has an issue with roundabouts or project planning. The problem is the method they're using to pay for it.

Covering your ears and repeating the same things over and over may work for Belling and his listeners, but it doesn't change reality, no matter how hard you try.

[DaBigE]

This is great news. Hopefully the new secretary will spend money wisely on things that are needed instead of throwing it away on useless roundabouts and unnecessary sign replacements like Gottlieb did. I am very disappointed in Walker that he would hire such a train wreck of a DOT secretary and it took him 6 years to get rid of him.

Your ignorance is showing...please try to tuck it in a little.

Unnecessary sign replacements?   Roundabouts? Hate to break the facts to ya, but those started under the Doyle administration. Sorry, but IMO, Gottlieb was one of our better Transportation Secretaries. At the very least, he is a registered professional engineer and has worked in the industry. Additionally, the buck doesn't stop with Gottlieb when it comes to what gets ultimately funded and approved...I'll give you a hint as to who signs off on everything -- his name rhymes with stalker.

[Roadguy]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/28/report-major-road-delays-store/95931678/?hootPostID=35696abedc3d06e6841c715e0e1d7b9b

"That study – done in house by the DOT – looked at what would happen over a decade if state officials didn't put more money toward roads. The answer: Major delays and worsening road conditions.

The miles of interstate, state and U.S. highways in Wisconsin in poor condition would more than double, from 21% of roads to 44% in 2027.

Additionally, major projects around the state would face delays of one to three years. The expansion of I-39/90 from the Illinois state line to Madison would take three years longer than currently planned and would likely force the state to give up a $40 million federal grant, the report found.

Once they did get going, projects would take longer than they have in the past. For instance, the north-south leg of I-94 would take more than 15 years. The project started in 2010 but has long been stalled and won't be completed until 2025 if current spending levels hold."

Anyone who is familiar with WisDOT's budget over the past 20+ years knew this was coming.  Some of those years up to 1/3rd of the dollars ($1 billion) have come from bonding against the transportation and general fund.  Each year a larger percentage of the transportation fund goes toward debt service to pay off these bonds (It use to be 5%, now it's close to 25%).

The reality is if citizens and lawmakers want road construction to continue at it's current pace, money will have to be found somewhere.  Where? Obviously that is the big debate.  But if revenues allocated towards DOT remain as laid out in the current 2 year budget, you might as well call SE Freeways and the Majors programs basically dead as no new projects will be started.

Wisconsin is going through the same debates as many other states from Michigan to Iowa to Illinois and Minnesota.  Iowa recently raised it's gas tax by 10 cents but in doing so presented a list to the public of what projects that money would go towards (many which the public wanted to see completed) to help sell to the public why it was vital to raise it by that additional amount. 

Illinois and Minnesota are currently going through the same debates as Wisconsin although both states unlike Wisconsin have no expansion projects even on the table (imagine no 39/90, no Zoo, no 94 north-south, etc.) as they are in preservation and maintenance only modes.  In noting this, the Illinois Tollway Authority has expansion plans, but not IDOT.

The final thing to note, leaving it as is in the status quo only means it gets more costly down the road to catch up.  As the can gets kicked, the problem continues to get larger and harder to solve.

[The Ghostbuster]

How money is spent is more important than how much money is spent. Priorities should be made, and the most important projects should be funded and constructed first.

[GeekJedi]

FHWA warns state to hold off on new road projects:

"There are so many projects under development, we do not believe all of them can advance on a reasonable schedule based on likely funding scenarios,"  the head of the Federal Highway Administration's Wisconsin office wrote to state officials last month."

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/15/federal-agency-warns-state-road-plan/96559230/

[Rothman]

FHWA warns state to hold off on new road projects:

"There are so many projects under development, we do not believe all of them can advance on a reasonable schedule based on likely funding scenarios,"  the head of the Federal Highway Administration's Wisconsin office wrote to state officials last month."

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/15/federal-agency-warns-state-road-plan/96559230/

Ha!  Maybe FHWA's division out there will make WI go through the same nonsense they make NYSDOT go through:  Having to "prove fiscal constraint" by the DOT producing a report showing their STIP is reasonable and requiring offsets when new projects are added.

Let the lipservice begin!

(personal opinion emphasized)

[dvferyance]

This is great news. Hopefully the new secretary will spend money wisely on things that are needed instead of throwing it away on useless roundabouts and unnecessary sign replacements like Gottlieb did. I am very disappointed in Walker that he would hire such a train wreck of a DOT secretary and it took him 6 years to get rid of him.

What will be more fun to watch is the fact that nothing much will change in the way roads are built. There will still be plenty of roundabouts, signing projects, and projects (hint: you don't know as much as you think about how these things happen). There isn't anyone on Walker's team that has an issue with roundabouts or project planning. The problem is the method they're using to pay for it.

Covering your ears and repeating the same things over and over may work for Belling and his listeners, but it doesn't change reality, no matter how hard you try.

If that's the case then we will have the same old same old again and might as well just kept Gothleib there. Still have no money to spend on things that are really needed. The reality is we have a spending problem and priorities by the DOT are being set in the wrong place. I would like to mention that Walker promised he would halt roundabout construction when he was running for Governor back in 2010. So there is nothing wrong with holding a politician accountable to a campaign promise. You just love roundabouts and don't care if there isn't any money to spend elsewhere. We have enough roundabouts as is there is no need for anymore. Like I said before you can always write a check to WisDOT to help pay for them I would like to keep my money to spend myself.

[SEWIGuy]

This is great news. Hopefully the new secretary will spend money wisely on things that are needed instead of throwing it away on useless roundabouts and unnecessary sign replacements like Gottlieb did. I am very disappointed in Walker that he would hire such a train wreck of a DOT secretary and it took him 6 years to get rid of him.

What will be more fun to watch is the fact that nothing much will change in the way roads are built. There will still be plenty of roundabouts, signing projects, and projects (hint: you don't know as much as you think about how these things happen). There isn't anyone on Walker's team that has an issue with roundabouts or project planning. The problem is the method they're using to pay for it.

Covering your ears and repeating the same things over and over may work for Belling and his listeners, but it doesn't change reality, no matter how hard you try.

If that's the case then we will have the same old same old again and might as well just kept Gothleib there. Still have no money to spend on things that are really needed. The reality is we have a spending problem and priorities by the DOT are being set in the wrong place. I would like to mention that Walker promised he would halt roundabout construction when he was running for Governor back in 2010. So there is nothing wrong with holding a politician accountable to a campaign promise. You just love roundabouts and don't care if there isn't any money to spend elsewhere. We have enough roundabouts as is there is no need for anymore. Like I said before you can always write a check to WisDOT to help pay for them I would like to keep my money to spend myself.

Oh God....not the roundabouts again.

And everyone wants to keep their money to spend themselves.  The problem is that you are failing to invest in infrastructure, which is a problem that's only going to get worse.  But I know...ditch roundabouts and everything is good right??? 

[The Ghostbuster]

I doubt Wisconsin is going to give up on roundabouts. They've constructed too many to do that.

[GeekJedi]

I would like to mention that Walker promised he would halt roundabout construction when he was running for Governor back in 2010. So there is nothing wrong with holding a politician accountable to a campaign promise.

And then he realized (like everyone else except for you, apparently) that doing that would hurt the budget more than help it, so he backed away from it. Not to mention that he didn't exactly make that a platform of his campaign.

[dvferyance]

What's the alternative then? If it's not cutting down a roundabouts then what? The Governor has made it very clear he will not support any tax increases so that's out the window something has got to change. I am sure nobody wants vital projects like the zoo and 94 down to the state line to take 25 years to get done. I can pinpoint plenty of places where there are roundabouts when stop signs could have worked just fine. that would have been such an easy way to save money but I guess if these roundabouts are such a sacred thing in the world then there has to be some other plan to save money. I am open to any other ideas to cut spending in the DOT but so far all I am hearing is raise taxes which is not an option.

[colinstu]

What's the alternative then? If it's not cutting down a roundabouts then what? The Governor has made it very clear he will not support any tax increases so that's out the window something has got to change. I am sure nobody wants vital projects like the zoo and 94 down to the state line to take 25 years to get done. I can pinpoint plenty of places where there are roundabouts when stop signs could have worked just fine. that would have been such an easy way to save money but I guess if these roundabouts are such a sacred thing in the world then there has to be some other plan to save money. I am open to any other ideas to cut spending in the DOT but so far all I am hearing is raise taxes which is not an option.

The solution is simple. Have a governor that is actually willing to increase taxes to appropriate levels.

Cutting taxes and spending down to $0 does NOT work, government finances are completely different than personal finances, and the faster voters and the GOP recognize this, the better. (and as we all know, that's never going to happen either).

Roads need to be made safer, maintained, updated... it helps the public function, work, those both traveling for leisure and for business.

[SEWIGuy]

What's the alternative then? If it's not cutting down a roundabouts then what? The Governor has made it very clear he will not support any tax increases so that's out the window something has got to change. I am sure nobody wants vital projects like the zoo and 94 down to the state line to take 25 years to get done. I can pinpoint plenty of places where there are roundabouts when stop signs could have worked just fine. that would have been such an easy way to save money but I guess if these roundabouts are such a sacred thing in the world then there has to be some other plan to save money. I am open to any other ideas to cut spending in the DOT but so far all I am hearing is raise taxes which is not an option.

Signed intersections are cheaper than roundabouts.  However I drive all over the state and I think the VAST majority of roundabouts exist en lieu of signaled intersections, thus making them cheaper.

Really your (likely talk radio fueled) obsession over roundabouts is a classic case of worrying about the small stuff.  Too small to make a difference at all. 

What should be done?  The gas tax should be raised and re-indexed back to inflation.  The governor doesn't want it because of his own personal, political reasons.  However the Republican Speaker of the Assembly wants it discussed as part of the budget (but likely knows it won't be approved.)  The fact is that all we are doing is punting this further and further down the road.  EVENTUALLY we are going to have to pay to have our infrastructure in decent shape.  And it will likely cost more when that happens since interest rates are very low.

I drive about 25,000 miles a year in two cars that average at minimum 25 mpg.  That's 1,000 gallons of gas a year.  If the gas tax would have remained indexed to inflation, it would be about 6 cents higher than it is now.  I would have paid about $60 more a year than I would have otherwise.  $60.  $5 a month. 

And that's the problem with society today.  Too obsessed with how much something costs and not as concerned about how much it is worth.  And a higher functioning transportation system is worth more to me than a couple cups of coffee at Starbucks a month.

[SEWIGuy]

To take this further.  In 2014, WIDOT estimates that drivers drove 60 billion miles on Wisconsin highways. 

http://fox6now.com/2015/10/29/wisconsin-dot-drivers-logged-more-than-60-billion-miles-in-wisconsin-in-2014/

The overall fuel efficiency of cars and light trucks is 23.6 miles a gallon.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/12/13/cars-in-the-u-s-are-more-fuel-efficient-than-ever-heres-how-it-happened/?utm_term=.f63af3812924

So 60B / 23.6 = over 2.5 billion gallons of gas.  At 6 cents per gallon, that is $155M that the state *could* have collected this year.  Over ten years, that would have gone a long way in making up that $1B shortfall the DOT says it has.  (You can't simply multiply $155M by 10 years since it would have ramped up to that figure.)

Shameful that the state screwed itself over like that.

[DaBigE]

What's the alternative then? If it's not cutting down a roundabouts then what? The Governor has made it very clear he will not support any tax increases so that's out the window something has got to change. I am sure nobody wants vital projects like the zoo and 94 down to the state line to take 25 years to get done. I can pinpoint plenty of places where there are roundabouts when stop signs could have worked just fine. that would have been such an easy way to save money but I guess if these roundabouts are such a sacred thing in the world then there has to be some other plan to save money. I am open to any other ideas to cut spending in the DOT but so far all I am hearing is raise taxes which is not an option.

Why only cut roundabouts? Signal projects aren't much cheaper (referring to intersections that also require geometric redesign with signal installation). If you're going to put a moratorium on an intersection control project, you might as well put it on all, unless you want your bias to show.

[The Ghostbuster]

I don't mind roundabouts. I don't have a car and never driven in my life, so that might be easy for me to say. In any event, I believe roundabouts are a permanent fixture on Wisconsin's roads and highways.

[DaBigE]

I believe roundabouts are a permanent fixture on Wisconsin's roads and highways.

Not to try to redirect this discussion back to the never-ending roundabout good vs. evil debate, I agree. They have been used and proven worldwide, just like the traffic signal, stop sign, and yield sign. Each control has its purpose and place; one not intended to make the other obsolete, as no device is perfectly applicable in every location. Each has their faults and inherent flaws.

[GeekJedi]

If you're going to put a moratorium on an intersection control project, you might as well put it on all, unless you want your bias to show.

That's just it. It's (mostly) a bias. There are certain talk show hosts that are convinced that the discussion of roundabouts is a political one, simply because of who was in charge when the big push for them was started. So, as part of framing the debate it became a "symbol of waste" rhetorically, though not truthfully.

[dvferyance]

I was wondering was a really so necessary to roundabout all the intersections at the interchanges on the Watertown bypass and the Milton bypass and the Baraboo bypass? As well as the Hwy 29 Hwy FF interchange just west of Green Bay. I just don't see any reason why stop signs couldn't have worked there just fine. Those intersections at least some of them probably hardly get any traffic as they are located in rural areas. If there was a good justifiable reason to have roundabouts there then perhaps I would be open to it but I just don't see it. Stop signs there could have saved a lot of money for other projects. So yes I think that there is a good reason to look into halting roundabout construction it's been overdone no doubt and it's an area where money can be saved and I don't see how this is being unrealistic.