Wisconsin notes

[The Ghostbuster]

Delaying major projects into the 2030s and 2040s is unacceptable. The road systems might completely rot away if we wait that long for stretches of highways that will need to be reconstructed well before then.

[paulthemapguy]

If you do 27 overlays, that's basically the same as reconstructing the road, right? -___-

[JREwing78]

The Wisconsin Department of Transportation has stopped studying a potential expansion of interstate highways from Madison to Wisconsin Dells, a sign the department may be downsizing its road-building ambitions in the face of mounting budget pressure.

The move appears to foreclose any near-term efforts to expand a corridor that carries growing volumes of traffic, much of it tourism-based, from southern Wisconsin and Illinois to Wisconsin Dells and other points north and west.

DOT scraps study of interstate expansion from Madison to Wisconsin Dells

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/dot-scraps-study-of-interstate-expansion-from-madison-to-wisconsin/article_979d1024-58f5-5426-a867-0b88a57feb44.html#utm_source=host.madison.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail%2Fwsj-news%2F%3Fref%3Demail&utm_medium=email


Thank you, no taxes for anything ever crowd. Gas prices can jump 50 cents or a dollar a gallon, entirely based on the whim of Big Oil, and people simply accept it. Try to raise gas taxes 10 cents a gallon, and everyone goes apoplectic.

The politicians who un-indexed the gas tax a few years ago, preventing the automatic increases to match inflation, deserve repeated smacks in the head for doing so.

[dvferyance]

The Wisconsin Department of Transportation has stopped studying a potential expansion of interstate highways from Madison to Wisconsin Dells, a sign the department may be downsizing its road-building ambitions in the face of mounting budget pressure.

The move appears to foreclose any near-term efforts to expand a corridor that carries growing volumes of traffic, much of it tourism-based, from southern Wisconsin and Illinois to Wisconsin Dells and other points north and west.

DOT scraps study of interstate expansion from Madison to Wisconsin Dells

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/dot-scraps-study-of-interstate-expansion-from-madison-to-wisconsin/article_979d1024-58f5-5426-a867-0b88a57feb44.html#utm_source=host.madison.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail%2Fwsj-news%2F%3Fref%3Demail&utm_medium=email


Thank you, no taxes for anything ever crowd. Gas prices can jump 50 cents or a dollar a gallon, entirely based on the whim of Big Oil, and people simply accept it. Try to raise gas taxes 10 cents a gallon, and everyone goes apoplectic.

The politicians who un-indexed the gas tax a few years ago, preventing the automatic increases to match inflation, deserve repeated smacks in the head for doing so.

I really don't see how the current 6 lane highway between Madison and Portage needed any upgrades right now. Portage to the Dells I can see. The gas tax was repelled in 2003 that was 14 years ago I would say that's more then just a few years. That's water over the dam now.

[SEWIGuy]

The Wisconsin Department of Transportation has stopped studying a potential expansion of interstate highways from Madison to Wisconsin Dells, a sign the department may be downsizing its road-building ambitions in the face of mounting budget pressure.

The move appears to foreclose any near-term efforts to expand a corridor that carries growing volumes of traffic, much of it tourism-based, from southern Wisconsin and Illinois to Wisconsin Dells and other points north and west.

DOT scraps study of interstate expansion from Madison to Wisconsin Dells

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/dot-scraps-study-of-interstate-expansion-from-madison-to-wisconsin/article_979d1024-58f5-5426-a867-0b88a57feb44.html#utm_source=host.madison.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail%2Fwsj-news%2F%3Fref%3Demail&utm_medium=email


Thank you, no taxes for anything ever crowd. Gas prices can jump 50 cents or a dollar a gallon, entirely based on the whim of Big Oil, and people simply accept it. Try to raise gas taxes 10 cents a gallon, and everyone goes apoplectic.

The politicians who un-indexed the gas tax a few years ago, preventing the automatic increases to match inflation, deserve repeated smacks in the head for doing so.

I really don't see how the current 6 lane highway between Madison and Portage needed any upgrades right now. Portage to the Dells I can see. The gas tax was repelled in 2003 that was 14 years ago I would say that's more then just a few years. That's water over the dam now.

1. They took the automatic inflation adjustment off 14 years ago.  Of course it was going to take awhile for it to have an impact because at first the difference between the actual and the projected adjustment wasn't that great.  14 years later, the difference is much larger.  It was a dumb idea then and now we are living with the results of that.

2. The six lanes are probably fine right now.  You do realize that these studies are for years into the future right?  As the says:

"Patrick Goss, director of the Wisconsin Transportation Builders Association, said the announcement means it could be more than two decades before an expansion of the corridor will occur. That's based on how long other road-expansion projects have taken to complete from the time at which lawmakers approved them."

Of course that might be a bit of hyperbole since he obviously has a vested interest in getting projects built, but it isn't an exaggeration to say that nothing significant is going to be happening in more than a decade and a half.  And do you have any idea what the corridor will be like then?

3. It isn't just about this corridor.  It is about continuing to punt the ball down the field and dealing with it another day.  And when you finally come around to dealing with it, it will be that much more expensive.  And you are eventually going to have to deal with it.

It was a foolish decision to take away the inflation adjustment.  It is a foolish decision not to put it back and to raise the tax.  It is particularly foolish to do all this in an era when the cost to bond these things are at historically low levels.  Unless you plan on closing highways and taking down bridges, this problem is only going to get worse.

[jakeroot]

The [automatically increasing] gas tax was repelled in 2003

This decision may qualify as one of the top ten dumbest legislative moves in US history. There has never been a place anywhere in the world that kept their gas tax the same throughout history, but somehow kept money flowing in, enough to continue building infrastructure at least. It's basic fucking economics. Just looking at the federal gas tax as an example, 18.4 cents today has the same buying power in 1994 as 30 cents. The federal gas tax today would need to be 30 cents just to have the same amount of money rolling in as we did in 1994. Never mind the fact that we have far more roads today than in 1994.

[The Ghostbuster]

I read about the cancelation of the 39/90/94 study. I hope it is resumed when/if the state's transportation finances improve. The corridor will have to be reconstructed sometime in the next 20 or 30 years.

[I-39]

What is the big deal about indexing the gas tax to inflation? It's a very wise thing to do. I think every state ought to raise their gas tax and index it, as a starting point to fix transportation funding. In Tennessee, Governor Haslam is proposing to raise and index the gas tax, but people are all bent out of shape about it. I fully support it. 

As for Wisconsin funding issues, as I've said many times before, part of the problem there is WisDOT overbuilt it's highway system. Now they have to spend tons of $$$ on maintenance. A lot of corridors that were upgraded (such as US 10 and WIS 26) could have been scaled back or not built at all (especially the US 10 Marshfield spur).

WisDOT wasted tons of money on overbuilding corridors while neglecting its main routes. Now they will suffer the consequences..............

[dvferyance]

What is the big deal about indexing the gas tax to inflation? It's a very wise thing to do. I think every state ought to raise their gas tax and index it, as a starting point to fix transportation funding. In Tennessee, Governor Haslam is proposing to raise and index the gas tax, but people are all bent out of shape about it. I fully support it. 

As for Wisconsin funding issues, as I've said many times before, part of the problem there is WisDOT overbuilt it's highway system. Now they have to spend tons of $$$ on maintenance. A lot of corridors that were upgraded (such as US 10 and WIS 26) could have been scaled back or not built at all (especially the US 10 Marshfield spur).

WisDOT wasted tons of money on overbuilding corridors while neglecting its main routes. Now they will suffer the consequences..............

The real waste was overdoing roundabouts and replacing signs that didn't need replacement. I think US 10 between Appleton and Stevens Point was needed but I do agree that WI-26 and the Marshfield spur was a bit overkill. WI-26 is basically just another route from Milwaukee to Beloit/Janesville when you already have I-43. As far as the gas tax goes. I am tired of the solution always being let's raise taxes. The gas tax goes up ever year without anyone voting on it. I don't know how anyone could say that's Democracy it's anything but that. Does your state have the automatic gas tax increase? Does any state have it. The fact is when it was repealed it had overwhelming support from both parties and it was approved by a Democratic Governor.

[I-39]

As far as the gas tax goes. I am tired of the solution always being let's raise taxes. The gas tax goes up ever year without anyone voting on it. I don't know how anyone could say that's Democracy it's anything but that. Does your state have the automatic gas tax increase? Does any state have it. The fact is when it was repealed it had overwhelming support from both parties and it was approved by a Democratic Governor.

The gas tax is a different thing. It's paid for by those who use the roads (99% of the population). If not indexed to inflation, it loses its buying power fairly quickly. It does not go up every year. Refusal to raise it is one of the main reasons we have a transportation funding crisis today. 

[SEWIGuy]

The real waste was overdoing roundabouts and replacing signs that didn't need replacement.

My God.  You are STILL on that kick?  Just stop...

[SEWIGuy]

As for Wisconsin funding issues, as I've said many times before, part of the problem there is WisDOT overbuilt it's highway system. Now they have to spend tons of $$$ on maintenance. A lot of corridors that were upgraded (such as US 10 and WIS 26) could have been scaled back or not built at all (especially the US 10 Marshfield spur).

WisDOT wasted tons of money on overbuilding corridors while neglecting its main routes. Now they will suffer the consequences..............

I agree with this too.  I mean I live just off WI-26, and the four lane divided highway is nice, but really unnecessary. 

[jakeroot]

As far as the gas tax goes. I am tired of the solution always being let's raise taxes.

[facepalm]

That's because of inflation ... do you like not believe in it, or something? Does it just not make any sense to you? It's basic economics.

Several posts up, I explain why inflation plays a role in gas taxes. Apparently, you didn't read it, so here it is again:

18.4 cents today has the same buying power in 1994 as 30 cents. The federal gas tax today would need to be 30 cents just to have the same amount of money rolling in as we did in 1994.

It's the reason that nobody pays for anything in coins anymore. They're fucking worthless! Back in the day, you could see a film for 50 cents. Theatres haven't gotten greedier, they just kept up with inflation. If they didn't, they'd go bankrupt. Kind of like how WisDOT will go bankrupt if they don't see a gas tax increase at some point.

[SEWIGuy]

As far as the gas tax goes. I am tired of the solution always being let's raise taxes.

[facepalm]

That's because of inflation ... do you like not believe in it, or something? Does it just not make any sense to you? It's basic economics.

Several posts up, I explain why inflation plays a role in gas taxes. Apparently, you didn't read it, so here it is again:

18.4 cents today has the same buying power in 1994 as 30 cents. The federal gas tax today would need to be 30 cents just to have the same amount of money rolling in as we did in 1994.

It's the reason that nobody pays for anything in coins anymore. They're fucking worthless! Back in the day, you could see a film for 50 cents. Theatres haven't gotten greedier, they just kept up with inflation. If they didn't, they'd go bankrupt. Kind of like how WisDOT will go bankrupt if they don't see a gas tax increase at some point.

Tying your gas tax to inflation is the same exact concept as tying your income tax to a percentage of your income.  It makes perfect sense and repealing it was a terrible decision.

[paulthemapguy]

And to boot, vehicles have become more fuel-efficient, meaning that each mile of road gets less motor fuel tax revenue per gallon of gas burned.  If we transition to electric cars, THEN how will roads be paid for?  It's a bigger problem that has plenty of threads' worth of discussion anyway.

[hobsini2]

As for Wisconsin funding issues, as I've said many times before, part of the problem there is WisDOT overbuilt it's highway system. Now they have to spend tons of $$$ on maintenance. A lot of corridors that were upgraded (such as US 10 and WIS 26) could have been scaled back or not built at all (especially the US 10 Marshfield spur).

WisDOT wasted tons of money on overbuilding corridors while neglecting its main routes. Now they will suffer the consequences..............

I agree with this too.  I mean I live just off WI-26, and the four lane divided highway is nice, but really unnecessary. 

Wis 26 is debatable on the importance now certainly. But I would argue that in the "big picture", upgrading Wis 26 to 4 lanes makes sense getting from Oshkosh, Appleton and Green Bay (all of which are growing areas) to Janesville/Beloit and St Louis while avoiding Milwaukee and Madison.

[dzlsabe]

2/3rds of the state is basically un/der developed.

[Roadguy]

Even WIDOT knows we are taking a penny-wise and pound-foolish approach by delaying major reconstruction in favor of temporary fixes.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/01/wisconsin-faces-tidal-wave-costly-roadwork-delays/98546080/?utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=hs&hootPostID=7a59429daba4028c650ba8fee40d6114

"The plans will also force more money to be spent on temporary repairs as the state puts off major projects because of a funding crunch, according to a Department of Transportation memo written in January.

The situation will only get worse.

“The tidal wave is coming, as this critical work can’t be delayed forever,” the January memo says.

The memo was prepared for Secretary David Ross and Deputy Secretary Bob Seitz to get them up to speed as they took over the Department of Transportation. The memo and other briefing documents were released to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel under the state’s open records law."

The reality is if these majors get held off until 2030 or 2040 they won't ever be completed.  If you look at Wisconsin's needs to maintain what is there for existing state and local roadways, there wouldn't be any money left for expansion (Majors program and SE Freeways Program) and there would still be a shortfall in money to maintain what exists today.

In the article the administration notes that "Under Walker’s budget, the effects would not be as severe because he proposed spending $669 million on major projects over the next two years — compared with $563 million the DOT recommended".  The reality is an extra $100 million a year is no where near enough money to accelerate the construction of major projects and doesn't really change the fact that these projects will get pushed to 2030/2040.  (Don't turn this into a political discussion about Walker, just stating the fact that this slight budget change wouldn't change how far projects get pushed out).

Unless there is a substantial shift in funding streams, Wisconsin will be in maintenance only mode (Only repair and replace what we have) sooner than we think where any expansion projects are dead (43 N-S, 94 E-W, Beltline improvements, 90/94 improvements near Wis Dells, etc).  The question is are politicians and the citizens willing to accept that?   One thing I can say is that special interest groups like 1000 Friends of Wisconsin and Wisconsin Public Interest Research Group will be thrilled to have roadway expansion killed off.

[SEWIGuy]

As for Wisconsin funding issues, as I've said many times before, part of the problem there is WisDOT overbuilt it's highway system. Now they have to spend tons of $$$ on maintenance. A lot of corridors that were upgraded (such as US 10 and WIS 26) could have been scaled back or not built at all (especially the US 10 Marshfield spur).

WisDOT wasted tons of money on overbuilding corridors while neglecting its main routes. Now they will suffer the consequences..............

I agree with this too.  I mean I live just off WI-26, and the four lane divided highway is nice, but really unnecessary. 

Wis 26 is debatable on the importance now certainly. But I would argue that in the "big picture", upgrading Wis 26 to 4 lanes makes sense getting from Oshkosh, Appleton and Green Bay (all of which are growing areas) to Janesville/Beloit and St Louis while avoiding Milwaukee and Madison.

Couple thoughts though:

**How much travel is there between the Fox Valley and the Janesville/Beloit area?

**According to Google Maps, taking WI-26 between the two areas is 108 miles v. 119 via US-151 and I-39/90.  Is it really a good use of $$ so travelers can save 11 miles?

I think the reasons WIDOT did this were as much political as anything else.  They did a real good job of spreading the wealth across the state geographically instead of focusing resources where they belonged - on the Milwaukee freeway system and existing corridors that serve mostly urban areas.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe those expansion proposals could still be funded via a reconstruct first/expand later mentality. That way, the roads can still be reconstructed, and the expansion could be held off until more funding becomes available.

[hobsini2]

As for Wisconsin funding issues, as I've said many times before, part of the problem there is WisDOT overbuilt it's highway system. Now they have to spend tons of $$$ on maintenance. A lot of corridors that were upgraded (such as US 10 and WIS 26) could have been scaled back or not built at all (especially the US 10 Marshfield spur).

WisDOT wasted tons of money on overbuilding corridors while neglecting its main routes. Now they will suffer the consequences..............

I agree with this too.  I mean I live just off WI-26, and the four lane divided highway is nice, but really unnecessary. 

Wis 26 is debatable on the importance now certainly. But I would argue that in the "big picture", upgrading Wis 26 to 4 lanes makes sense getting from Oshkosh, Appleton and Green Bay (all of which are growing areas) to Janesville/Beloit and St Louis while avoiding Milwaukee and Madison.

Couple thoughts though:

**How much travel is there between the Fox Valley and the Janesville/Beloit area?

**According to Google Maps, taking WI-26 between the two areas is 108 miles v. 119 via US-151 and I-39/90.  Is it really a good use of $$ so travelers can save 11 miles?

I think the reasons WIDOT did this were as much political as anything else.  They did a real good job of spreading the wealth across the state geographically instead of focusing resources where they belonged - on the Milwaukee freeway system and existing corridors that serve mostly urban areas.

But the cities (Ft Atkinson, Watertown, Johnson Creek) along 26 have been growing a lot. So yes in the Big Picture, Oshkosh to Janesville can be done reasonably via 151 and 39/90. But, the corridor serves a ton of local traffic.

[I-39]

As for Wisconsin funding issues, as I've said many times before, part of the problem there is WisDOT overbuilt it's highway system. Now they have to spend tons of $$$ on maintenance. A lot of corridors that were upgraded (such as US 10 and WIS 26) could have been scaled back or not built at all (especially the US 10 Marshfield spur).

WisDOT wasted tons of money on overbuilding corridors while neglecting its main routes. Now they will suffer the consequences..............

I agree with this too.  I mean I live just off WI-26, and the four lane divided highway is nice, but really unnecessary. 

Wis 26 is debatable on the importance now certainly. But I would argue that in the "big picture", upgrading Wis 26 to 4 lanes makes sense getting from Oshkosh, Appleton and Green Bay (all of which are growing areas) to Janesville/Beloit and St Louis while avoiding Milwaukee and Madison.

Couple thoughts though:

**How much travel is there between the Fox Valley and the Janesville/Beloit area?

**According to Google Maps, taking WI-26 between the two areas is 108 miles v. 119 via US-151 and I-39/90.  Is it really a good use of $$ so travelers can save 11 miles?

I think the reasons WIDOT did this were as much political as anything else.  They did a real good job of spreading the wealth across the state geographically instead of focusing resources where they belonged - on the Milwaukee freeway system and existing corridors that serve mostly urban areas.

But the cities (Ft Atkinson, Watertown, Johnson Creek) along 26 have been growing a lot. So yes in the Big Picture, Oshkosh to Janesville can be done reasonably via 151 and 39/90. But, the corridor serves a ton of local traffic.

I don't necessarily dispute the need for some upgrades in the corridor, what I have a problem with is the fact they built it as a full blown freeway/near-freeway when lesser upgrades would have been sufficient. Freeways are expensive to build and maintain, and yet, Wisconsin seems to think every major corridor (that they think needs to be four lanes) should include high quality upgradable expressway and freeway bypasses around towns. That simply isn't true for every situation. Only the backbone routes should be freeways (or high-quality upgradeable expressway, like WIS 29 and US 151), the rest should be lesser expressways. Also, some of the corridors that have been upgraded are somewhat redundant (such as WIS 29 and US 10, WIS 26 and US 151, etc).

In part, because of overbuilding certain projects, WisDOT now has less money for much needed reconstruction of its roads.

[The Ghostbuster]

Hopefully something will be done to improve the state's transporation finances. And GeekJedi and Dzlsabe, can the personal insults. They are counterproductive to this discussion board website.

[GeekJedi]

Hopefully something will be done to improve the state's transporation finances. And GeekJedi and Dzlsabe, can the personal insults. They are counterproductive to this discussion board website.

Nope.

Thanks for asking nicely though! 

As for the state's transportation finances, I'm not sure what can be done if there continues to be a refusal to increase taxes. You can only cut so much spending. Those savings don't magically increase funding.

[dvferyance]

Hopefully something will be done to improve the state's transporation finances. And GeekJedi and Dzlsabe, can the personal insults. They are counterproductive to this discussion board website.

Nope.

Thanks for asking nicely though! 

As for the state's transportation finances, I'm not sure what can be done if there continues to be a refusal to increase taxes. You can only cut so much spending. Those savings don't magically increase funding.

I don't get why the solution to everything always has to be raise taxes. I keep hearing all the time we got to help the middle class. I don't see how raising the gas tax helps the middle class becasue it means everyone is going to have to pay more at the pump. That means the middle class not just the wealthy. I do think there were other areas they could have saved money like don't build so many roundabouts stop replacing signs that don't need to be replaced and stop doing projects that nobody wants but I guess we can't do any of that.