Wisconsin notes

[SEWIGuy]

There's enough room to for Mason St to come down to 'street level' at Ashland while retaining the existing clearance for the bridge over the Fox.
You'd be losing the Broadway ramps, probably, but they are overkill anyway.
Can probably do the same on the east bank and get back to street level at Monroe or even Madison

A more interesting thought is how to squeeze a new bridge next to the existing one, because I doubt they'd want to shut it down completely for more than a year while they tear it out and replace it on location.  So they're probably looking at having to acquire r/w for that.  Seems like fewer takings to build south of the exiting span, especially if they're looking to give up on some of those ramps between Ashland and Monroe.

Should be interesting to see what alternatives surface as this one is a tough logistical nut to crack.
Unless they're willing to bite the 'shut it down completely for 20 months' bullet.

What about the rail line right next to Broadway? There's no possible way to build an overpass without going over the top of Broadway. There would be enough space to build an intersection with Ashland but why cause more traffic tie ups with an intersection.

Urban planning seemed to be better in the past than the present. Back then there was a focus on convenience and now planners make things worse. College Ave is another example of that by reducing a lane in each direction. If there are any downgrades from the current configuration new intersections are just going to lead to more traffic congestion and accidents.

College Ave in downtown Appleton was restriped as one lane each way with left turn lanes at the intersections due to a problem with street racing and the delays caused by cars stopped in the left lane while waiting to turn left at the intersections.  Snow removal activity showed that this was not going to be a traffic problem, as the S.O.P. of plowing the snow to the center of the street o be trucked away later after storms and the resulting temporary lane reductions never caused any traffic issues.  I'm taking a 'wait and see' attitude towards that, as I currently live only a few blocks from that part of College Ave.  Downtown Appleton is becoming a popular place for the younger crowd to live, as recent construction activity for mew rental apartments shows.

I've only been down to Appleton a couple of times since the re-striping, and I am cautiously optimistic. It was hard to parallel park downtown with two lanes of traffic. Slowing down the flow has been helpful with that and is way more pedestrian friendly.

[mgk920]

What about the rail line right next to Broadway? There's no possible way to build an overpass without going over the top of Broadway. There would be enough space to build an intersection with Ashland but why cause more traffic tie ups with an intersection.

The bridge would cross the RR and Broadway still. I only mentioned removing the ramps because they're redundant and take up valuable space.

Urban planning seemed to be better in the past than the present. Back then there was a focus on convenience and now planners make things worse.

Worse for whom?
Poorly thought out urban planning made things a LOT worse for way more people back in ye good ol' days.
I'll take "oh noes, I have to drive a wee bit slower now" over "we're gonna tear down all y'alls houses so some rich fuckers can get to their office two minutes faster."

A ton of buildings were torn down to build this bridge, more torn down to save the only 2 buildings on the site - Howe School and The White Store, whose building is now the county health department.

And that rail line by Broadway has the real near-term potential to become much busier than it is now - If/when common carrier rail pax service is restored into the I-41 corridor, that is the track that it will use.

Mike

[peterj920]

Looking at a Jsonline article the only thing holding up the final Bucees approval in DeForest is how to design the County V interchange and roadways leading to the future store/gas station. It will be interesting to see if there's major or minor improvements. I think back to Sheboygan years ago when Walmart mainly paid for the conversion to roundabouts at I-43/Wis 42. Will the interchange go to added lanes to existing, roundabouts or DDI?

[Great Lakes Roads]

Looking at a Jsonline article the only thing holding up the final Bucees approval in DeForest is how to design the County V interchange and roadways leading to the future store/gas station. It will be interesting to see if there's major or minor improvements. I think back to Sheboygan years ago when Walmart mainly paid for the conversion to roundabouts at I-43/Wis 42. Will the interchange go to added lanes to existing, roundabouts or DDI?

According to the plans for the site, the interchange will be rebuilt into a DDI with the existing bridge intact.

[SSOWorld]

Looking at a Jsonline article the only thing holding up the final Bucees approval in DeForest is how to design the County V interchange and roadways leading to the future store/gas station. It will be interesting to see if there's major or minor improvements. I think back to Sheboygan years ago when Walmart mainly paid for the conversion to roundabouts at I-43/Wis 42. Will the interchange go to added lanes to existing, roundabouts or DDI?

According to the plans for the site, the interchange will be rebuilt into a DDI with the existing bridge intact.

pics, or it didn't (or won't) happen

[JoePCool14]

I've only been down to Appleton a couple of times since the re-striping, and I am cautiously optimistic. It was hard to parallel park downtown with two lanes of traffic. Slowing down the flow has been helpful with that and is way more pedestrian friendly.

I'd actually like to see something similar implemented down in Racine. Their Main Street carries STH-32 and is mostly four lanes plus parallel parking. It's very tight to get through, even at the posted speed of 25. In theory, all the four lanes are doing is allowing for additional flow to get through, but I'm not sure it's necessary these days. Changing it to a three lane setup would likely be an improvement.

[JREwing78]

Looking at a Jsonline article the only thing holding up the final Bucees approval in DeForest is how to design the County V interchange and roadways leading to the future store/gas station. It will be interesting to see if there's major or minor improvements. I think back to Sheboygan years ago when Walmart mainly paid for the conversion to roundabouts at I-43/Wis 42. Will the interchange go to added lanes to existing, roundabouts or DDI?

According to the plans for the site, the interchange will be rebuilt into a DDI with the existing bridge intact.

pics, or it didn't (or won't) happen

The project study for I-39/90/94 was already considering a DDI. The other option was basically a rebuild of what's there now. There's nothing scheduled (so far as I can tell), but the existing interchange will be sucking wind most of the day if a Buc-ee's plops in there without any changes to the interchange.

WisDOT also doesn't have to be sold on the DDI idea; they're popping up wherever they need to manage heavy turning volumes at an interchange.

Study website: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/399094/public.aspx

Page 52 (58 in the PDF)
https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/by-region/sw/399094/interchangealternatives-april23.pdf

[SSOWorld]

Looking at a Jsonline article the only thing holding up the final Bucees approval in DeForest is how to design the County V interchange and roadways leading to the future store/gas station. It will be interesting to see if there's major or minor improvements. I think back to Sheboygan years ago when Walmart mainly paid for the conversion to roundabouts at I-43/Wis 42. Will the interchange go to added lanes to existing, roundabouts or DDI?

According to the plans for the site, the interchange will be rebuilt into a DDI with the existing bridge intact.

pics, or it didn't (or won't) happen

The project study for I-39/90/94 was already considering a DDI. The other option was basically a rebuild of what's there now. There's nothing scheduled (so far as I can tell), but the existing interchange will be sucking wind most of the day if a Buc-ee's plops in there without any changes to the interchange.

WisDOT also doesn't have to be sold on the DDI idea; they're popping up wherever they need to manage heavy turning volumes at an interchange.

Study website: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/399094/public.aspx

Page 52 (58 in the PDF)
https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/by-region/sw/399094/interchangealternatives-april23.pdf

Partially false.  The DDI option replaces the existing bridge with two bridges wider apart. (YMMV)

[mgk920]

Looking at a Jsonline article the only thing holding up the final Bucees approval in DeForest is how to design the County V interchange and roadways leading to the future store/gas station. It will be interesting to see if there’s major or minor improvements. I think back to Sheboygan years ago when Walmart mainly paid for the conversion to roundabouts at I-43/Wis 42. Will the interchange go to added lanes to existing, roundabouts or DDI?

According to the plans for the site, the interchange will be rebuilt into a DDI with the existing bridge intact.

pics, or it didn't (or won't) happen

The project study for I-39/90/94 was already considering a DDI. The other option was basically a rebuild of what's there now. There's nothing scheduled (so far as I can tell), but the existing interchange will be sucking wind most of the day if a Buc-ee's plops in there without any changes to the interchange.

WisDOT also doesn't have to be sold on the DDI idea; they're popping up wherever they need to manage heavy turning volumes at an interchange.

Study website: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/399094/public.aspx

Page 52 (58 in the PDF)
https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/by-region/sw/399094/interchangealternatives-april23.pdf

Partially false.  The DDI option replaces the existing bridge with two bridges wider apart. (YMMV)

I haven't even seen WisDOT's plans for the new DDIs at I-41/WI 15/County 'OO'/Northland Ave, I-41/WI47/Richmond St nor I-41/County 'E/Ballard Rd here in Appleton.  Work that is expected to begin next year.

Mike

[mgk920]

Has anyone else noticed that the online versions of WisDOT freeway cams now have a real-time live video option?



Mike

[peterj920]

Driving through Appleton on the weekend Wis 441 is undergoing concrete repair/diamond grind of the concrete yet I-41 seems to be rougher between Breezewood and Hwy 15. The pavement is now 30 years old. It's time for either a resurfacing or a patch and grind.

WISDOT seems to be very inconsistent when it comes to repairing concrete surfaces. I-43 in Ozaukee County must be 50 years old by now and received another diamond grind. WISDOT does not want to resurface for some reason. And in the Southwest Region, US 151 has been undergoing concrete repair and resurfacing the last few years between Dodgeville and Beaver Dam with current repairs on the Verona Bypass which is badly needed. I wonder why WISDOT is willing to resurface some concrete roadways while wanting to keep the original pavement on other stretches?

[SEWIGuy]

The WI-441 project is more than just a concrete rehabilitation.

https://projects.511wi.gov/441bypass/full-project-overview/

Anyway, my assumption is that these people probably know what they're doing.

[mgk920]

The WI-441 project is more than just a concrete rehabilitation.

https://projects.511wi.gov/441bypass/full-project-overview/

Anyway, my assumption is that these people probably know what they're doing.

US 151 around Dodgeville was originally un-reinforced concrete (it was REEEALLY rough!) in the 1980s/1990s, retrofitted with joint dowel bars a couple of decades ago and then diamond ground.

WisDOT changes out bad squares of concrete on the six lane part of I-41 in the Appleton-Neenah area every five years or so.

Also, the current plans for the I-41/WI 441 'Northeast' interchange in Appleton are for it to be re-engineerd as a free-flowing Directional 'T' in the pending I-41 six lane upgrade project.

Mike

[The Ghostbuster]

Would converting the Interstate 41/STH 441 interchange from a trumpet interchange into a directional T interchange require the removal of the retention basin along French Rd.?

[mgk920]

Would converting the Interstate 41/STH 441 interchange from a trumpet interchange into a directional T interchange require the removal of the retention basin along French Rd.?

Yes, that's where the new SB I-41 to SB WI 441 ramp will go.  In all, two buildings in Appleton's Northeast Industrial Park will have to be acquired and a sizable amount of current ROW vacated by WisDOT when it is all done.

Mike

[peterj920]

The WI-441 project is more than just a concrete rehabilitation.

https://projects.511wi.gov/441bypass/full-project-overview/

Anyway, my assumption is that these people probably know what they're doing.

US 151 around Dodgeville was originally un-reinforced concrete (it was REEEALLY rough!) in the 1980s/1990s, retrofitted with joint dowel bars a couple of decades ago and then diamond ground.

WisDOT changes out bad squares of concrete on the six lane part of I-41 in the Appleton-Neenah area every five years or so.

Also, the current plans for the I-41/WI 441 'Northeast' interchange in Appleton are for it to be re-engineerd as a free-flowing Directional 'T' in the pending I-41 six lane upgrade project.

Mike

The concrete was replaced on the US 151 Dodgeville Bypass two years ago between Wis 23 and US 18 including the ramps on the interchanges. US 18/US 151 has been undergoing concrete patching/resurfacing for the last few years between Dodgeville and Fitchburg with the final stretch being worked on between Mt. Horeb and Fitchburg right now. The concrete on the Verona Bypass is newer than on I-41 yet it's being resurfaced and it's badly needed.

Instead of patching I-41 every 5 years why not patch and resurface for a longer term solution?

[triplemultiplex]

Like anything else, they've gotta balance costs with needs using a limited supply of money.  And then they also must consider spacing out potential traffic impacts with nearby projects (something you'll see state and local agencies fumble on ALL THE TIME).

Concrete patching work is the kind of thing they can do in little bits during the overnight hours or other lower traffic periods and get things opened back before the rush hour or onslaught of weekend warriors.  The stretch of the triplex north of Madison is in the same boat as I-41 when it comes to concrete patching every few years.  Thought the timetable is a little shorter since the triplex gets pounded harder by more trucks than I-41.

As to whether or not to overlay old concrete with asphalt, I'm sure they've got a decision matrix of some sort that lets them know when to bring that in during the concrete's lifespan.

[peterj920]

Like anything else, they've gotta balance costs with needs using a limited supply of money.  And then they also must consider spacing out potential traffic impacts with nearby projects (something you'll see state and local agencies fumble on ALL THE TIME).

Concrete patching work is the kind of thing they can do in little bits during the overnight hours or other lower traffic periods and get things opened back before the rush hour or onslaught of weekend warriors.  The stretch of the triplex north of Madison is in the same boat as I-41 when it comes to concrete patching every few years.  Thought the timetable is a little shorter since the triplex gets pounded harder by more trucks than I-41.

As to whether or not to overlay old concrete with asphalt, I'm sure they've got a decision matrix of some sort that lets them know when to bring that in during the concrete's lifespan.

The Beltline was resurfaced twice in 3 years (final layer during the Flexlane project) and work was done overnight. Wis 172 is currently being resurfaced at night with all lanes open during the day.

The busiest roads should have the highest priority and I-41 in Appleton really needs repairs.

[JREwing78]

WisDOT is no more consistent (or inconsistent) in its maintenance practices than any other DOT out there. I've seen Michigan's DOT do the diamond-grinding thing and the asphalt overlay thing on newer concrete roadways. Some sections were paved in concrete in the 1960s and have been patched/grinded, but never overlaid. Other sections got asphalt overlay pretty quickly. They've even done a CONCRETE overlay of concrete (I-69 south of Charlotte), which worked great for about 10 years, and then disintegrated under the relatively heavy truck traffic (left lane was still pretty smooth, but the right lane was very uneven and was breaking apart). Lately, MDOT has been leaning HARD on asphalt for a lot of its recent work; concrete reconstruction seems to be reserved for roads with heavy truck traffic like the I-94 rebuild in Jackson.

Asphalt overlays are quick and easy (and I suspect behind the decision making on the Beltline). Diamond grinding (if the surface condition allows it) allows you to skip the asphalt but takes more time to pull off. But that grinding also causes the road's friction to decrease a bit, and if the grinder is not lined up straight it causes some cars to weave and toss around in the lane.

[texaskdog]

They've done that in a couple spots up north in recent years.  US 8 used to be four lane divided through its interchanges with US 51 and WI 13.  But when it was last repaved, they eliminated one of the thru lanes in favor of dedicated left and right turn lanes.  So now it's two lane divided.

Did they need the lanes?  With passing lanes in between points I digress.

8 hardly needs to be a US highway

[mgk920]

The WI-441 project is more than just a concrete rehabilitation.

https://projects.511wi.gov/441bypass/full-project-overview/

Anyway, my assumption is that these people probably know what they're doing.

US 151 around Dodgeville was originally un-reinforced concrete (it was REEEALLY rough!) in the 1980s/1990s, retrofitted with joint dowel bars a couple of decades ago and then diamond ground.

WisDOT changes out bad squares of concrete on the six lane part of I-41 in the Appleton-Neenah area every five years or so.

Also, the current plans for the I-41/WI 441 'Northeast' interchange in Appleton are for it to be re-engineerd as a free-flowing Directional 'T' in the pending I-41 six lane upgrade project.



Mike

The concrete was replaced on the US 151 Dodgeville Bypass two years ago between Wis 23 and US 18 including the ramps on the interchanges. US 18/US 151 has been undergoing concrete patching/resurfacing for the last few years between Dodgeville and Fitchburg with the final stretch being worked on between Mt. Horeb and Fitchburg right now. The concrete on the Verona Bypass is newer than on I-41 yet it's being resurfaced and it's badly needed.

Instead of patching I-41 every 5 years why not patch and resurface for a longer term solution?

The part around Ridgway was dowel-bar retrofitted in the late 1980s or early 1990s, too.  That highway was due.  A decade or two ago, I heard a WisDOT engineer who said  that they were paying big time for well over a decade for the mistake of relying on the theory of an unreinforced 'aggregate lock' when they were building concrete highways from the early 1970s to the early 1980s.  Yes it was a mess going back and repairing them all.

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

They've done that in a couple spots up north in recent years.  US 8 used to be four lane divided through its interchanges with US 51 and WI 13.  But when it was last repaved, they eliminated one of the thru lanes in favor of dedicated left and right turn lanes.  So now it's two lane divided.

Did they need the lanes?  With passing lanes in between points I digress.

8 hardly needs to be a US highway

Like all US highway's, it's just a state-maintained highway with a common number. So it might as well stay US-8.

[The Ghostbuster]

It's not like the US 8 designation can be reverted to STH 14 (due to the existence of US 14 within the state). Also, maybe they reduced the number of lanes at STH 13 and US 51 due to two lanes in each direction was overkill and not needed.

[jwags]

Anyone know why there is a sign listing exits on I-794 way back in Waukesha County? This is on 94 EB between Moorland and the Zoo Interchange. I would expect this sign to be placed somewhere around the stadium interchange area.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0251596,-88.0910322,3a,45y,91.68h,88.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shpWXlKGQVggTO8JwQQQMsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[The Ghostbuster]

No idea. If it were closer to the Marquette Interchange, say east of Exit 309B, it would make more sense to me. But to have it west of the Zoo Interchange seems illogical. Then again, there are other signs along Interstate 94 between Madison and Milwaukee giving information about certain exits that are a few exits ahead. Examples Eastbound: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0489563,-88.3488026,3a,75y,98.64h,97.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scJWKXAThJnMixV2eWfI9HQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu; https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0503107,-88.2974885,3a,75y,76.68h,91.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHwt_DrDxSY4fgpQ9mWK-IQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. Examples Westbound: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0499417,-88.339654,3a,75y,275.28h,84.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syat9oEy0RPqzoRzWSnjieg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu; https://www.google.com/maps/@43.029014,-88.1341318,3a,75y,285.46h,77.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSVKc0UL7Dv-oSW28xWhcdw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.