Apparently, some powers that be want to build the I-95 bridge over the Delaware River as a toll bridge. Of course, it will probably be I-195 before said bridge is completed whether free or toll.
PA/NJ I-95 Delaware River Scudder Falls bridge replacement proposed for toll financing (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4504)
That will probably redirect some traffic via the US 1 bridge in Trenton.
I don't like the current trend to just randomly toll anything they can't finance otherwise. Of course, it's necessary to finance replacement/repaving/widening, but it also leads to an undesired change in traffic patterns. There are more than enough people willing to drive a few miles extra to avoid a toll bridge.
QuoteThat will probably redirect some traffic via the US 1 bridge in Trenton.
Northbound, yes. Southbound, not so much, since the US 1 bridge has long been tolled southbound.
Quote from: froggie on December 23, 2009, 09:26:54 AM
QuoteThat will probably redirect some traffic via the US 1 bridge in Trenton.
Northbound, yes. Southbound, not so much, since the US 1 bridge has long been tolled southbound.
If the new I-95 (future I-195) bridge is tolled, I'm guessing it will likely be tolled in only one direction as well.
Probably. Southbound would be the more likely direction, in keeping with the "standard policy" of tolling only when you leave New Jersey and not when you enter.
Well this would put more cars onto the small non-tolled Trusses bridges in the area , or it could lead to more Rail Commuting on the 2 lines that Service the Area.
Depends on how people value their time. Several of the small non-tolled bridges are a pain in the tail to get to. People will pay a resonable toll if it means avoiding those narrow, time-consuming roads.
Quote from: froggie on December 26, 2009, 09:07:50 AM
Depends on how people value their time. Several of the small non-tolled bridges are a pain in the tail to get to. People will pay a resonable toll if it means avoiding those narrow, time-consuming roads.
The US 1 "free" bridge has been set up to be difficult to get to SB and avoid the toll - the last exit doesn't allow left turns. Calhoun St. is easier to find but more time-consuming. Next bridge up is Washington's Crossing, which doesn't make sense for many travelers.
I don't think any less traffic will use the bridge if it is tolled. The free alternatives are narrow and harder to access as others have pointed out. Its unfortunate though because I always favored the I-95 span because of the lack of a fee...
O.K., I didn't know the US 1 bridge was tolled. It sounded to good to be true in the first place ;)
If the US 1 bridge was toll free, it would be much easier to avoid tolls on I-95. (except when you're living very close to the bridge, and the detour becomes too long).
TOLLROADSnews: US issues FONSI for big Delaware River I-95 bridge rebuild north of Trenton NJ (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6000)
Quote2012-06-18: Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission (DRJTBC) have received the federal OK for the rebuild of the Scudder Falls Bridge and modernization of the Interstate on both the Pennsylvania and New Jersey sides of the river. This is Commission's largest current capital project.
QuoteThe Federal Highway Administration has issued a Finding Of No Significant Impact (or FONSI) as requested by the DRJTBC.
QuoteFHWA says the documentation provided by DRJTBC show "there is no practicable alternative" to the project as proposed and that DRJTBC has committed to "all practicable ,easures to minimize harm to natural, cultural and socioeconomic resources."
QuoteIt will be redesignated I-295 when the Pennsylvania Turnpike completes a major interchange rebuild at its far eastern end (downriver) and allows I-95 to cross directly to the Pearl Harbor spur of the New Jersey Turnpike, then north to New York City on the Turnpike.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2012, 09:47:47 PM
QuoteIt will be redesignated I-295 when the Pennsylvania Turnpike completes a major interchange rebuild at its far eastern end (downriver) and allows I-95 to cross directly to the Pearl Harbor spur of the New Jersey Turnpike, then north to New York City on the Turnpike.
False, but that's what you get from a blog. I-195.
It was speculated that it would be I-295 before I-195 was announced; someone must have not gotten the memo!
I take the Scudders Falls Bridge every day and I'll probably continue to do so after it's tolled because it's convenient. They also have talked about (not sure if it's set in stone) going with all electronic (EZ-Pass/Photo) tolling, which should keep the traffic moving. My only issue is with how the DRJTBC spends money. If they can afford to give grants to municipalities for road projects, then I'd much rather they lower the tolls and keep the money they'd otherwise give away. While I know it's a completely political move (keep the residents of those towns which you are taxing with your toll bridge happy), it doesn't make it any less annoying.
here is an article from yesterday on it...
http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/06/i-95_scudder_falls_bridge_328m.html
Quote
"You can fix the bridge, and even add lanes on it, without spending $300 million," said Jeff Tittel, chapter director for the New Jersey Sierra Club. "There are alternatives that could be done that could be a lot cheaper."
Quote
Tittel also expressed concerns related to the air pollution from lane merges on each side of the river that would be created, as well as the impact that construction of the bridge would have on the bottom of the river, and wildlife there.
First, I have to believe that, as someone who isn't an engineer, that it wouldn't be feasible (if at all safe) to try and tack more road deck onto a structure that's over 50 years old and which was never designed for it.
Second, how is the air pollution going to be any worse than is probably there now? I would think the fact that you have cars constantly having to stop and go due to the non-existant merge lanes there has gotta cause a lot more pollution (not to mention burn a lot more fuel) than a more free-flowing interchange where merges occur at freeway speeds, even if you add in additional traffic. Does the Sierra Club have this delusion that if you don't build the new bridge, that the traffic is going to magically stop being an issue there?
Quote
New Jersey Sen. Michael Doherty (R-23) issued a statement yesterday about what he described as a "boondoggle of a project."
"The Scudder Falls Bridge replacement project is a solution in search of a problem," he said, asserting in particular that the toll for the bridge has the potential to displace traffic to river bridges elsewhere and perhaps result in toll hikes in those places, leading to more headaches for commuters.
While I can understand this concern, are people going to really be that willing to drive up to Washington's Crossing or down to Calhoun St or Bridge St)? "Solution in search of a problem?" Senator, do you actually *drive* on this stretch of road during rush hour? Have you ever sat in the mile+ backup which is caused because of the significantly substandard interchange and narrowing of the road from 3 lanes to 2?
Ignorance drives me insane.
Quote from: Compulov on June 20, 2012, 09:25:58 PM
Quote
New Jersey Sen. Michael Doherty (R-23) issued a statement yesterday about what he described as a "boondoggle of a project."
"The Scudder Falls Bridge replacement project is a solution in search of a problem," he said, asserting in particular that the toll for the bridge has the potential to displace traffic to river bridges elsewhere and perhaps result in toll hikes in those places, leading to more headaches for commuters.
While I can understand this concern, are people going to really be that willing to drive up to Washington's Crossing or down to Calhoun St or Bridge St)? "Solution in search of a problem?" Senator, do you actually *drive* on this stretch of road during rush hour? Have you ever sat in the mile+ backup which is caused because of the significantly substandard interchange and narrowing of the road from 3 lanes to 2?
Ignorance drives me insane.
Dear district 23: Vote this moron out of office. It's one of the only projects we can get done that actually contributes to its own funding.
Quote from: Steve on June 19, 2012, 10:24:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2012, 09:47:47 PM
QuoteIt will be redesignated I-295 when the Pennsylvania Turnpike completes a major interchange rebuild at its far eastern end (downriver) and allows I-95 to cross directly to the Pearl Harbor spur of the New Jersey Turnpike, then north to New York City on the Turnpike.
False, but that's what you get from a blog. I-195.
The author actually
appreciates corrections from knowledgeable sources.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 21, 2012, 10:19:06 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 19, 2012, 10:24:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2012, 09:47:47 PM
QuoteIt will be redesignated I-295 when the Pennsylvania Turnpike completes a major interchange rebuild at its far eastern end (downriver) and allows I-95 to cross directly to the Pearl Harbor spur of the New Jersey Turnpike, then north to New York City on the Turnpike.
False, but that's what you get from a blog. I-195.
The author actually appreciates corrections from knowledgeable sources.
Must have looked at Tim Reichard's (http://www.m-plex.com/roads/family9.html#i95) site.
Quote from: Compulov on June 20, 2012, 09:25:58 PM
First, I have to believe that, as someone who isn't an engineer, that it wouldn't be feasible (if at all safe) to try and tack more road deck onto a structure that's over 50 years old and which was never designed for it.
For an example of this, you won't even have to travel 5 miles south. The US 1 bridge - owned by the same authority - recently was widened from 5 lanes to 6 lanes. This bridge. It was opened in 1952 and widened within the past 5 years or so. They knocked out some of the original stone structure and put 'wings' on the side to widen the bridge deck about 6' - 10' on both side of the bridge to add the 6th lane.
So...it can be done.
Having said that, in this case in order to do the same thing, the present bridge would have to be dedicated to Northbound or Southbound traffic, requiring the opposing direction to swerve out to the new bridge. While that in itself isn't a major issue, the existing roads, houses and/or bridges in the area would suffer, which is the main issue.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2012, 02:20:26 PM
Having said that, in this case in order to do the same thing, the present bridge would have to be dedicated to Northbound or Southbound traffic, requiring the opposing direction to swerve out to the new bridge. While that in itself isn't a major issue, the existing roads, houses and/or bridges in the area would suffer, which is the main issue.
Actually, it would be pretty easy to build a new bridge to the south of the existing one and tie the freeway in on both sides without really disrupting anything. Check out the aerials.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2012, 02:20:26 PM
Quote from: Compulov on June 20, 2012, 09:25:58 PM
First, I have to believe that, as someone who isn't an engineer, that it wouldn't be feasible (if at all safe) to try and tack more road deck onto a structure that's over 50 years old and which was never designed for it.
For an example of this, you won't even have to travel 5 miles south. The US 1 bridge - owned by the same authority - recently was widened from 5 lanes to 6 lanes. This bridge. It was opened in 1952 and widened within the past 5 years or so. They knocked out some of the original stone structure and put 'wings' on the side to widen the bridge deck about 6' - 10' on both side of the bridge to add the 6th lane.
So...it can be done.
Having said that, in this case in order to do the same thing, the present bridge would have to be dedicated to Northbound or Southbound traffic, requiring the opposing direction to swerve out to the new bridge. While that in itself isn't a major issue, the existing roads, houses and/or bridges in the area would suffer, which is the main issue.
If you look at the two spans, the scudder falls bridge really lacks any stone to expand on.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2577%2F4083479131_16b36c1f4d.jpg&hash=892a0101a569eb9636f095920eecc92b4659a763)
US1 Bridge Post expansion:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.louisberger.com%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FLBG%2FProjects%2FUS%2520Engineering%2FDRJTBC-TMTB%2FDRJTBC_TMTB_4.jpg&hash=74469c13eef22bc119145659408643bd527a7cdb)
Pre expansion:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scenicbuckscounty.com%2FDelawareRiver%2Fimage%2Fobj73geo39pg3p15.jpg&hash=5b470c0c7b9e467db5a25d0ff816a3cb99f2c823)
Notice how the deck does not go out over the pier as much as the scudder falls bridge?
Quote from: Steve on December 29, 2009, 12:44:26 AM
The US 1 "free" bridge has been set up to be difficult to get to SB and avoid the toll - the last exit doesn't allow left turns. Calhoun St. is easier to find but more time-consuming. Next bridge up is Washington's Crossing, which doesn't make sense for many travelers.
(yes I know I'm quoting an old post)
The left turn ban at the Warren St. exit must have been recent. I used to take it all the time when I was in the area. The alternate route isn't so bad though, just take Shepherd St. and make a left onto William Treat Place to get back to Bridge St.
Is Trenton the closest that a free and toll bridge completely crossing the same river get?
Quote from: NE2 on July 18, 2012, 10:07:06 PM
Is Trenton the closest that a free and toll bridge completely crossing the same river get?
can't imagine much closer, unless you want to count two separate spans of a bridge as different bridges... i.e. you pay a toll in one direction, but not the other, on a twin bridge setup.
I believe I-295 across the Delaware does this? I simply cannot remember if there is a toll in precisely one direction, though.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 18, 2012, 10:18:45 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 18, 2012, 10:07:06 PM
Is Trenton the closest that a free and toll bridge completely crossing the same river get?
can't imagine much closer, unless you want to count two separate spans of a bridge as different bridges... i.e. you pay a toll in one direction, but not the other, on a twin bridge setup.
I believe I-295 across the Delaware does this? I simply cannot remember if there is a toll in precisely one direction, though.
Damn - forgot the "same direction" qualifier. And of course toll for motor vehicles - there are free sidewalks next to many toll bridges.
Quote from: NE2 on July 18, 2012, 11:22:24 PM
Damn - forgot the "same direction" qualifier. And of course toll for motor vehicles - there are free sidewalks next to many toll bridges.
I looked up the Delaware Memorial Bridge and it is indeed a toll in one direction only.
I knew exactly what your question intended, but I figured a pedantic answer would do. :sombrero:
Across all of NJ, if the bridge has a toll, it's tolled leaving NJ only.
The benefit of I-295 (Delaware Memorial Bridge) is that it's $4 to cross. The next 4 bridges to the north are owned by a different authority, and they are $5 to cross.
Other than I-95, the free bridges are only 1 lane per direction, usually with a 15 or 25 mph speed limit.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 18, 2012, 10:18:45 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 18, 2012, 10:07:06 PM
Is Trenton the closest that a free and toll bridge completely crossing the same river get?
can't imagine much closer, unless you want to count two separate spans of a bridge as different bridges... i.e. you pay a toll in one direction, but not the other, on a twin bridge setup.
I believe I-295 across the Delaware does this? I simply cannot remember if there is a toll in precisely one direction, though.
I-295 across the Delaware is the Delaware Memorial Bridge (the NJ Turnpike & US 40 merge w/I-295 prior to the bridge on the Jersey side) which has a one-way toll for traffic leaving NJ.
Yep! I was last on that bridge on June 3rd. The toll plaza is on the New Castle, DE (west/south) side of the bridge. I know the bridge itself is I-295 and US Route 40.
As for the NJ Turnpike and I-295? Without looking over Google Maps, it was tough to see where the exact southern end of the New Jersey Turnpike was. I know there's an unnumbered exit southbound after the Turnpike toll plaza. I consider it to be the Turnpike's Exit 1. My guess is it was done this way (unnumbered) since I-295's Exit 1 in Pennsville, NJ isn't that far from here. Adding to the confusion is US Route 40 leaving/joining near the Turnpike/I-295 merge.
To better illustrate the above: http://goo.gl/maps/B2fs
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 19, 2012, 09:32:53 AM
Across all of NJ, if the bridge has a toll, it's tolled leaving NJ only.
Except Dingmans Ferry, I think.
Quote from: NE2 on July 19, 2012, 05:16:11 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 19, 2012, 09:32:53 AM
Across all of NJ, if the bridge has a toll, it's tolled leaving NJ only.
Except Dingmans Ferry, I think.
Correct
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 19, 2012, 09:32:53 AM
Across all of NJ, if the bridge has a toll, it's tolled leaving NJ only.
Well
someone's gotta say it: They toll people who want to get out because if they only tolled people who want to get in, they'd never make a dime.
:rolleyes: I know, I know.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 18, 2012, 07:46:03 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 29, 2009, 12:44:26 AM
The US 1 "free" bridge has been set up to be difficult to get to SB and avoid the toll - the last exit doesn't allow left turns. Calhoun St. is easier to find but more time-consuming. Next bridge up is Washington's Crossing, which doesn't make sense for many travelers.
(yes I know I'm quoting an old post)
The left turn ban at the Warren St. exit must have been recent. I used to take it all the time when I was in the area. The alternate route isn't so bad though, just take Shepherd St. and make a left onto William Treat Place to get back to Bridge St.
It must have been temporary, because you can certainly make the left turn now.
Quote from: NE2 on July 18, 2012, 10:07:06 PM
Is Trenton the closest that a free and toll bridge completely crossing the same river get?
Phillipsburg is going to give Trenton a run for its money with "free 22" (original route) and tolled 22.
It appears at the furthest distance on the PA side of the river, US 1 is about 700 feet away from the Trenton Makes Bridge (on the NJ side, the bridge is only about 350 feet away). http://goo.gl/maps/LjxB
In Phillipsburg, the bridges are about 900 feet away from each other.
http://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/news/local/scudder-falls-bridge-improvement-project-open-house-draws-more-than/article_2a0aa290-9a1c-11e5-9243-c7051844c01d.html?mode=story
There was a public meeting last regarding the Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement. It's scheduled to go to construction in 2017 (We'll see about that...). Within the article are some images of what the highway and interchanges will look like.
It doesn't appear anyone mentioned that it's not going to be I-95 by the time the project is done. That'll just be one other thing for the residents to complain about!!!
it sucks they gotta toll it, that was a roundabout shunpike that saved me money from going all the way to the bottom end of the turnpike and the delaware memorial bridge
Double roundabouts... Hopefully motorists won't fail like they do navigating our traffic circles?
Quote from: Zeffy on December 04, 2015, 05:38:27 PM
Double roundabouts... Hopefully motorists won't fail like they do navigating our traffic circles?
it really can't be much worse than the current situation, with exit and entrance ramps crossing multiple times.
Quote from: odditude on December 04, 2015, 05:47:15 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on December 04, 2015, 05:38:27 PM
Double roundabouts... Hopefully motorists won't fail like they do navigating our traffic circles?
it really can't be much worse than the current situation, with exit and entrance ramps crossing multiple times.
Not at all - are they planning to eliminate the stop sign going from 29 to 95 SB?
The on ramps will have full lanes across the bridge, so no more stop signs!
Prep work begins for new Scudder Falls Bridge (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2016/01/prep_work_begins_for_new_scudder_falls_bridge.html)
QuotePreparation work to make way for the construction of the new Scudder Falls Bridge began Monday, bridge officials said.
Crews began clearing trees, logs, dead trees and other vegetation and debris at certain sections on both sides of Interstate 95 between the Route 332 and Taylorsville Road in Lower Makefield, Pa.
QuoteThe work will allow noise-reducing walls to be installed on the Pennsylvania side later this spring, officials said.
Other tree-clearing work on the New Jersey side is expected to take place in the fall.
QuoteConstruction is expected to begin in early 2017 on the new twin span between Lower Makefield, Pa., and Ewing and take up to four years to complete.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2015, 02:59:41 PM
It doesn't appear anyone mentioned that it's not going to be I-95 by the time the project is done. That'll just be one other thing for the residents to complain about!!!
Well the only time I have heard about this project while at PENNDOT so far, the person talking about the project did not mention that either.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 08, 2016, 06:12:11 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2015, 02:59:41 PM
It doesn't appear anyone mentioned that it's not going to be I-95 by the time the project is done. That'll just be one other thing for the residents to complain about!!!
Well the only time I have heard about this project while at PENNDOT so far, the person talking about the project did not mention that either.
the FAQ page (http://web.archive.org/web/20150217200854/http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/faqs.htm) on the previous version of the project site addressed the change in designation (http://web.archive.org/web/20150123021535/http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/answer19.htm).
edit: post 295 about I-295, woo
From Philly.com: High bid inflates I-95 plan for toll bridge at Scudder Falls (http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Why-dont-builders-want-to-bridge-the-Delaware-.html)
Still no mention of the planned designation change to I-295 in the article BTW.
Quote from: Philly.com ArticleStarting in 2019, the no-tollbooth system would clip drivers either $1.25 (E-ZPass) or $2.60 (Big Brother would record pass-less drivers' tags and bill them by mail). Regular commuters would get a discount. Truck tolls would range from $7 to $33. Only southbound drivers would pay. Going to New Jersey would be free.
I believe this is the first
news article that actually lists what the tolls rates will be.
it was posted to the project website (http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/content/authority-toll) back in September.
Thread Bump and I'm surprised that nobody chimed in on such yet.
The new tolls for the Scudder Falls Bridge (I-295) is
scheduled to take effect this July 10.
All-Electronic Tolling on the Scudder Falls Toll Bridge (http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/tolling/)
Truth be told, the listed toll rates aren't too expensive and at least there's no transponder discrimination taking place; i.e. the E-ZPass rate applies for
all tagholders regardless of which agency issued such.
However, the additional commuter discounts only apply to certain agency-issued E-ZPass accounts.
Quote from: Scudder Falls Bridge website, Q&A sectionThere will be a 40-percent frequency-based commuter discount for Class 1 passenger vehicles outfitted with an operational toll transponder issued and administered by the entity that processes toll transactions at the Commission's toll bridges. That entity is the New Jersey E-ZPass Customer Service Center — a.k.a. NJ E-ZPass Group – a regional toll processor serving seven transportation agencies operating in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware. The service center is operated by Conduent Incorporated.
...
The reason the Commission's commuter discount can be applied only to an E-ZPass transponder issued and administered by the New Jersey E-ZPass Customer Service Center (a.k.a. NJ E-ZPass Group) is because that is the entity that processes the Commission's toll transactions. The discount can thereby be tracked, tabulated and automatically applied to the respective eligible motorist's DRJTBC-affiliated E-ZPass account. E-ZPass accounts/transponders administered or issued by the Pennsylvania Turnpike, the New York Thruway, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, or any other E-ZPass-issuing agency are not eligible for the discount because their respective toll-processing systems are independent of the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission's toll processor.
More Q&A-related info regarding tolls & which E-ZPass accounts are eligible for commuter discounts (& which nearby-agency-issued ones are not) can be found
here.
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:
Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQpW4AAGL08.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQqWwAAfve6.jpg)
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:
Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQpW4AAGL08.jpg)
*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the
PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign.
IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0884819,-73.9274072,3a,75y,155.28h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saNoS2-4HY6J4IQaUxBE0iA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) with a
2 MILES (or
2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:
TOLL 2 MILES (IMHO, the term
PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
SOUTH
295 TO 95
Philadelphia
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:
Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQpW4AAGL08.jpg)
*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign.
IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0884819,-73.9274072,3a,75y,155.28h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saNoS2-4HY6J4IQaUxBE0iA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:
TOLL 2 MILES (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
SOUTH
295 TO 95
Philadelphia
Actually, the placement of the "TO" is more troublesome. Shouldn't it be above the shields?
In many states yes, but NJ its normal. Not knocking the Garden State, but they always had their own way of doing things including never using where other states having roads lead to another road using that other one as a control city, NJ would leave the control city blank and sign Route X TO Route Y side by side.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 25, 2019, 08:45:36 PM
In many states yes, but NJ its normal. Not knocking the Garden State, but they always had their own way of doing things including never using where other states having roads lead to another road using that other one as a control city, NJ would leave the control city blank and sign Route X TO Route Y side by side.
Well I can't say whether or not that still is a good idea, but I digress.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:
Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQpW4AAGL08.jpg)
*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign.
IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0884819,-73.9274072,3a,75y,155.28h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saNoS2-4HY6J4IQaUxBE0iA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:
TOLL 2 MILES (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
SOUTH
295 TO 95
Philadelphia
I must agree, that sign is atrocious.
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 09:25:03 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:
Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQpW4AAGL08.jpg)
*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign.
IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0884819,-73.9274072,3a,75y,155.28h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saNoS2-4HY6J4IQaUxBE0iA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:
TOLL 2 MILES (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
SOUTH
295 TO 95
Philadelphia
I must agree, that sign is atrocious.
Yeah, the pay thing is incorrect.
However, you shouldn't ignore cardinal directions. Remember...look at it from a driver's point of view who isn't someone that's familiar with roads. They're told to take 295 West to Exit 10. This sign is instrumental in guiding them the correct way.
There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to" anything, but I digress
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There’s no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would’ve made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there’d be no need for “to” anything, but I digress
Yes like when I-410 changes direction at I-35 in San Antonio you just see the new direction on the overhead pullthroughs. Though, I think in Lansing, MI where I-69 goes from N-S to E-W there might be a change sign that points out the orientation change.
However, just plain 295 might work as well as Virginia does it on I-64 and I-295 where both change directions as well. Though I-64 east of I-264's east junction is directional less the whole way as so is I-295 west of I-95, still just having a I-295 to South I-95 would work well too.
The Capital Beltway/I-270 interchange(s) strategy would make perfect sense at I-295/US 1, if the direction changed there (as it should).
From I-270 southbound
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/2019-06-18_15_24_14_View_south_along_Interstate_270_%28Washington_National_Pike%29_at_the_junction_with_Interstate_270_Spur_in_Potomac%2C_Montgomery_County%2C_Maryland.jpg/800px-thumbnail.jpg)
From I-495 westbound
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/2019-05-27_16_04_45_View_west_along_the_outer_loop_of_the_Capital_Beltway_%28Interstate_495%29_at_Exit_35_%28Interstate_270_West%2C_Frederick%29_in_Bethesda%2C_Montgomery_County%2C_Maryland.jpg/800px-thumbnail.jpg)
From I-495 northbound
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/2019-06-17_13_32_42_View_north_along_the_inner_loop_of_the_Capital_Beltway_%28Interstate_495%29_1-4_mile_south_of_Exit_38_%28Interstate_270%2C_Rockville%2C_Frederick%29_in_Bethesda%2C_Montgomery_County%2C_Maryland.jpg/800px-thumbnail.jpg)
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There’s no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would’ve made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there’d be no need for “to” anything, but I digress
No, you can't sign it as 295 West here because it's NOT 295 West. If someone has directions to take 295 North to Exit 76, and a motorist sees this sign stating "295 West", they may incorrectly assume they're going the wrong direction or they passed their exit. This sign has everything everyone wants: What route they're on now, and what routes they'll be approaching. It's not complicated to read or understand, other than the "Pay" wording.
And as far as resigning it at US 1...yeah, here they wouldn't have to do anything, but other places they would. So they would be installing a similar sign elsewhere.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to" anything, but I digress
And as far as resigning it at US 1...yeah, here they wouldn't have to do anything, but other places they would. So they would be installing a similar sign elsewhere.
No, there'd be no need.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to" anything, but I digress
No, you can't sign it as 295 West here because it's NOT 295 West. If someone has directions to take 295 North to Exit 76, and a motorist sees this sign stating "295 West", they may incorrectly assume they're going the wrong direction or they passed their exit. This sign has everything everyone wants: What route they're on now, and what routes they'll be approaching. It's not complicated to read or understand, other than the "Pay" wording.
Unnecessary because most people can figure it out. I don't think this confusion exists on the Baltimore or Capitol beltways, despite none of this silly "to" signage.
Also, it IS 295 West there, NJDOT just can't admit it.
Quote from: famartin on June 26, 2019, 06:29:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
There's no need for North 295 to West 295 on that sign. Period. Just sign it as 295 west. This would've made much more sense if NJDOT had just done the sensible thing and changed directions at US 1, where there'd be no need for "to" anything, but I digress
No, you can't sign it as 295 West here because it's NOT 295 West. If someone has directions to take 295 North to Exit 76, and a motorist sees this sign stating "295 West", they may incorrectly assume they're going the wrong direction or they passed their exit. This sign has everything everyone wants: What route they're on now, and what routes they'll be approaching. It's not complicated to read or understand, other than the "Pay" wording.
Unnecessary because most people can figure it out.
That is one of the worst decisions an engineer can make - by assuming travelers know where they're at and where they're going. Why bother with pull-thru signage or reminder signage at all, if most people can figure it out. Why do most interchanges have signage at the 1 mile, 1/2 or 1/4 mile, and at the exit gore? Why have states started painting route numbers on the roadway? The fact is most people *can't* figure it out.
QuoteI don't think this confusion exists on the Baltimore or Capitol beltways, despite none of this silly "to" signage.
Well, they do have this...which seems to indicate I-495 Exits onto I-495. Also had 3 control cities, when 2 are permitted. https://goo.gl/maps/DzT1PndEgdcnnoLt9
Then as you approach the area, you have this: https://goo.gl/maps/GrmxJmhERVywMBrz9
Then within the interchange, you have this: https://goo.gl/maps/DvpLwYWFPijj1tNM6
Notice what's missing? Unlike what the first sign indicated, there's no Exit 57C. So the point is, don't compare one signing issue to another, very random location somewhere else in the country. There's always going to be signing issues, and signing practices will differ from one area to another.
QuoteAlso, it IS 295 West there, NJDOT just can't admit it.
Yawn. The argument was stale 2 years ago.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 08:23:37 AM
Jeff, no offense but your posted-examples, have absolutely nothing to do with a route changing cardinal directions along the way (the subject at hand here). Famaritn's posted example at I-270 is indeed one of the more applicable and IMHO the best way to address I-295's direction-cardinal change at the Scudder Falls Bridge.
A better example IMHO, would be the I-695/795 interchange in Pikesville, MD (outside of Baltimore)
I-795 Southbound approaching I-695 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3741943,-76.7503493,3a,75y,141.93h,83.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEQuY1oqpJ21B0aaXEZtI9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Interestingly, there is no pull-through signage along I-695 northbound approaching I-795 prior to MM 17.5. The I-695 signage along the mainline is 695 INNER LOOP (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3583324,-76.7461984,3a,75y,341.81h,71.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3XbseXbL4IhqNB0N0Wnigw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) assembly that has no direction cardinal. Based on the Oct. 2018 GSVs; there doesn't seem to be any I-695 signage along the north/eastbound mainline until about 3 miles further down around MM 20.5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3938059,-76.70311,3a,75y,71.87h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxnYlT_8hvnggEFo5dsThxQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
In the opposite direction (Outer Loop/I-695 west/southbound), there are no pull-through signs along the I-695 mainline approaching the I-795 interchange as well. However, first reassurance marker bearing a
SOUTH cardinal for I-695 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3656784,-76.7477889,3a,75y,181.13h,87.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stZxFwKRZaIZHhsUlF7m3ZQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) occurs at the merge with the ramp from I-795.
The bottom line here, and back to the I-295 NJ-PA example; while the information on the lower-portion of that 2-mile advance sign is technically correct, such is unnecessary. As previously stated, a simple yellow-and-black
TOLL 2 MILES (AHEAD) sign (one can even add an I-295 shield on the yellow panel as a means of stating that such only applies for thru-295 traffic) is sufficient here. This is one case where
less is more.
The first
295 WEST signage one sees should only be at Exit 76/NJ 29 interchange (both ramps & pull-through signs) and at the AET gantry as shown in the 2nd photo that Zeffy posted.
For the opposite direction, the first
295 SOUTH signage is at Exit 10 in PA (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2541999,-74.8535509,3a,75y,333.44h,86.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz_TzbCJm-9gYZkzE372exA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (ramp signs only)... although I would included a additional
Bordentown control city reference for that I-295 South sign to emphasize that the highway
ultimately heads southward. With PA not using any pull-through signage in this area the first BGS listing I-295 southbound that thru-(NJ-bound) traffic sees is this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2599451,-74.8450476,3a,75y,50.52h,85.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7zz8-H0LkIe_BbtTx3UbVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) just after crossing the bridge.
In this particular case, NJDOT is overcompensating for where it's not needed. PennDOT, this time around, got it right.
NJ should do what MTO does for QEW and leave off cardinal directions. The ACE used to do that as well, but now East and West have been making appearances lately there.
Would PennDOT or NJDOT be responsible for signs in the jurisdiction of Delaware river joint toll bridge commission?
Quote from: jaip on June 26, 2019, 11:53:59 AM
Would PennDOT or NJDOT be responsible for signs in the jurisdiction of Delaware river joint toll bridge commission?
I believe they do their own signage, same as every other crossing authority (DRBA, DRPA, PANYNJ, etc). You can usually tell, because the signage gets wonky. DRPA loves to use Arial (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9734261,-75.0419477,3a,75y,115.01h,100.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCFOdDUlH2AwdJpzb_4KOmw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in a lot of its signs (at least they did back in the day), so you see a lot of terrible looking signs in their areas. PANYNJ signage varies from crossing to crossing, but isn't usually bad (newer installs are definitely better). It used to be super obvious where they took over by the GWB (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8560171,-73.9717636,3a,44.3y,151.37h,98.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swbGn_XtxL_HvMl3X8iaOOw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) since they used exit tabs while the NJ Turnpike Authority didn't, but it's a little less obvious now (although their signs are just physically bigger. One of the things I've noticed with NJTA's move to MUTCD-like signage is that they're making their signs a hell of a lot smaller). DRBA makes signage that I actually think looks super good (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6793975,-75.489479,3a,75y,296.39h,100.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh7tWmrpkQ20--i-PR6Lieg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). DRJTBC signage isn't bad (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3775389,-74.9610854,3a,75y,227.59h,101.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soAKGCvQIt6muIBsFUHAMxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) for the most part. In this instance, the stretch of highway those signs are going up on is still NJDOT managed.
How about I-78 into Exit 3 going EB? I see the DRTJC has jurisdiction for all the miles in NJ to ?Exit 3. That may explain why "Newark" is the control city on I-78 E Bound pull through where "New York" is on US 22 E Bound approaching the same interchange.
However, NJDOT did get their mileage sign in on I-78 east of the Delaware River on DRTJ property though.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 26, 2019, 10:09:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 08:23:37 AM
Jeff, no offense but your posted-examples, have absolutely nothing to do with a route changing cardinal directions along the way (the subject at hand here). Famaritn's posted example at I-270 is indeed one of the more applicable and IMHO the best way to address I-295's direction-cardinal change at the Scudder Falls Bridge.
You would be correct...IF this was at the bridge. It's not - there's still 2 interchanges prior to the change in cardinal direction, which I've desperately tried to point out.
The signage above is at the only is the 270/495 gore points, not 2 miles back with additional interchanges between. Also, the 1st and 3rd pic from his post at 12:05am don't match in context. Even though both signs refer to the spur, the signage on I-270 directly references the spur; the signage on I-495 North does not reference the spur.
Quote
The bottom line here, and back to the I-295 NJ-PA example; while the information on the lower-portion of that 2-mile advance sign is technically correct, such is unnecessary. As previously stated, a simple yellow-and-black TOLL 2 MILES (AHEAD) sign (one can even add an I-295 shield on the yellow panel as a means of stating that such only applies for thru-295 traffic) is sufficient here. This is one case where less is more.
The first 295 WEST signage one sees should only be at Exit 76/NJ 29 interchange (both ramps & pull-through signs) and at the AET gantry as shown in the 2nd photo that Zeffy posted.
I pretty much agree with this. It's not fully necessary to mention the change at this point. But it doesn't hurt either, as it's providing motorists advance notification of the change.
Quote
For the opposite direction, the first 295 SOUTH signage is at Exit 10 in PA (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2541999,-74.8535509,3a,75y,333.44h,86.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz_TzbCJm-9gYZkzE372exA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (ramp signs only)... although I would included a additional Bordentown control city reference for that I-295 South sign to emphasize that the highway ultimately heads southward. With PA not using any pull-through signage in this area the first BGS listing I-295 southbound that thru-(NJ-bound) traffic sees is this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2599451,-74.8450476,3a,75y,50.52h,85.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7zz8-H0LkIe_BbtTx3UbVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) just after crossing the bridge.
In this particular case, NJDOT is overcompensating for where it's not needed. PennDOT, this time around, got it right.
As far as 295 East to 295 South goes, that area is still under construction so we don't know what the mainline signage will ultimately be. They still have an entire bridge to replace and rebuild, so the final signage won't be known for a few years.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 26, 2019, 12:40:09 PM
How about I-78 into Exit 3 going EB? I see the DRTJC has jurisdiction for all the miles in NJ to ?Exit 3. That may explain why "Newark" is the control city on I-78 E Bound pull through where "New York" is on US 22 E Bound approaching the same interchange.
However, NJDOT did get their mileage sign in on I-78 east of the Delaware River on DRTJ property though.
NJDOT never seems to be too sure how it wants to sign control cities in either direction on 78. The signage at exit 3 is from '89 when they opened the 78 extension to PA, IIRC. It's that reflective background with button copy that is a late 80s/early 90s NJDOT vintage. Signs at Exit 29 also use Newark, and those date from sometime in the 80s also (some may have been replaced but I believe were in-kind replacements without updated legends). I honestly would have done a dual control city setup with Newark and New York. They sort of do that when it splits into the express and local lanes past Springfield, where the local lanes are signed for Newark, and the express lanes for NYC and the Holland Tunnel.
Incidentally, they've done this now with 22. 22 has almost always used New York for EB control, even if it has always ended in Newark at its present location (first as a circle, then the variously configured interchanges). Except a few years ago, they changed the signs on 287 to show 22's EB control city as Newark.
Then they complicated it further since when they built out the reconfigured service road/exit to Chimney Rock Rd, they had the pullthrus show New York as the control city (although this was probably already designed this way). Still, one hand rarely knows what the other is doing when it comes to this sometimes.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 12:58:10 PM
Quote
For the opposite direction, the first 295 SOUTH signage is at Exit 10 in PA (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2541999,-74.8535509,3a,75y,333.44h,86.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz_TzbCJm-9gYZkzE372exA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (ramp signs only)... although I would included a additional Bordentown control city reference for that I-295 South sign to emphasize that the highway ultimately heads southward. With PA not using any pull-through signage in this area the first BGS listing I-295 southbound that thru-(NJ-bound) traffic sees is this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2599451,-74.8450476,3a,75y,50.52h,85.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7zz8-H0LkIe_BbtTx3UbVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) just after crossing the bridge.
In this particular case, NJDOT is overcompensating for where it's not needed. PennDOT, this time around, got it right.
As far as 295 East to 295 South goes, that area is still under construction so we don't know what the mainline signage will ultimately be. They still have an entire bridge to replace and rebuild, so the final signage won't be known for a few years.
There are no I-295 East pull-through signs in Pennsylvania, and this project will not add any. (Should there be? . . . that is another question. People have been confused enough about the designations, cardinal directions and discontinuities in this area for many years -- this may not be helping.) The first pull-through for New Jersey-bound traffic will remain at Exit 76, and it will say South.
As for the North-to-West change, the toll message is really all that is needed on the advance signs, with the EZPass and toll-by-plate messages. A supplemental panel on I-295 NB between Exits 75 and 76 could herald the cardinal direction change (yellow, instead of green? -- Maryland's "Notice" signs would be good here), with the pull-through at Exit 76 confirming it. I might have considered the same thing New Jersey-bound.
This is not a true beltway (more like the northern half of one), so the intuition of cardinal direction changes is likely not as well understood here. I get questions from neighbors, fellow parishioners and co-workers about this subject frequently. I usually shrug my shoulders before trying to explain it.
Quote from: akotchi on June 26, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 12:58:10 PM
It's worth noting that there's no direction cardinal change signs, advance or otherwise, posted on either side of I-676 (near the Ben Franklin Bridge) in Philly & Camden... and I-676 is
not a full beltway.
Quote from: storm2k on June 26, 2019, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 26, 2019, 12:40:09 PM
How about I-78 into Exit 3 going EB? I see the DRTJC has jurisdiction for all the miles in NJ to ?Exit 3. That may explain why "Newark" is the control city on I-78 E Bound pull through where "New York" is on US 22 E Bound approaching the same interchange.
However, NJDOT did get their mileage sign in on I-78 east of the Delaware River on DRTJ property though.
NJDOT never seems to be too sure how it wants to sign control cities in either direction on 78. The signage at exit 3 is from '89 when they opened the 78 extension to PA, IIRC. It's that reflective background with button copy that is a late 80s/early 90s NJDOT vintage. Signs at Exit 29 also use Newark, and those date from sometime in the 80s also (some may have been replaced but I believe were in-kind replacements without updated legends). I honestly would have done a dual control city setup with Newark and New York. They sort of do that when it splits into the express and local lanes past Springfield, where the local lanes are signed for Newark, and the express lanes for NYC and the Holland Tunnel.
Incidentally, they've done this now with 22. 22 has almost always used New York for EB control, even if it has always ended in Newark at its present location (first as a circle, then the variously configured interchanges). Except a few years ago, they changed the signs on 287 to show 22's EB control city as Newark. Then they complicated it further since when they built out the reconfigured service road/exit to Chimney Rock Rd, they had the pullthrus show New York as the control city (although this was probably already designed this way). Still, one hand rarely knows what the other is doing when it comes to this sometimes.
Correct NJDOT at first was not using control cities at all for I-78 except at both NJ 31 and I-287 which were Newark. NJDOT hardly signed control cities on any interstates despite local roads and other routes had them.
When I-78 opened in 1986 between Watchung and Springfield Newark was added to EB I-78 signs from Route 287, but in the early or mid 90's when I-287 was widened to six lanes it was resigned with New York City (not New York). Yes each hand does not watch the other as for years US 22 from I-287 was signed New York and Easton while I-78 was signed Newark and Clinton so you had the freeway signed with more local control cities over the US route that was non freeway being signed for more prominent control cities.
The same in Watchung when I-78 was finally opened after years of litigation to get 41 to 48 completed through the Union County Park. The signs on Diamond Hill Road and CR 527 used Easton for ramp signs yet on NJ 24 and NJ 124 signs used Clinton as control cities both erected at the same time from the same project.
IMO an overhaul is needed to determine which control points should be used. Allentown should really be used from Newark westward as Easton was only copied over from US 22 as that was proper for that road previously due to it entering PA at that city and it being more populated than Phillipsburg. Not to mention local non freeways are better to be signed with more local places than far away cities like the freeways are. Now I-78 does hit Easton but far from its center and the fact Allentown is PA's third largest city, it really should be signed. And going EB yes both Newark and New York should both be used together.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 26, 2019, 01:35:57 PM
Quote from: akotchi on June 26, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 12:58:10 PM
It's worth noting that there's no direction cardinal change signs, advance or otherwise, posted on either side of I-676 (near the Ben Franklin Bridge) in Philly & Camden & I-676 is not a full beltway.
That is cause NJ and PA have different ideas of how the same freeway should be signed. NJ keeps 675 signed in unison with Route 42 being signed north and south is probably why. However I-287 is the same crossing the NJ- NY state line where New Jersey is signing it N-S and NY signing it E-W. Oh yes, and no change signs there either.
Quote from: kevinb1994 on June 25, 2019, 05:54:37 PMActually, the placement of the "TO" is more troublesome. Shouldn't it be above the shields?
I meant to respond to this earlier; other states have placed the
TO legend to the left of the routes shields as well.
One example in Peabody, MA. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5456248,-70.9827791,3a,75y,192.17h,80.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSLUCa7h55zKEPJ8v5VEdDw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Granted the MA 128 shield has no direction cardinal above it but still.
One example in Exton, PA. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0180422,-75.6314268,3a,75y,56.24h,76.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIa3gzD-pW6V8T9DfD6fP4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Not too fond of that US 202 shield (something about it just looks
off) the original BGS' dating back to when the US 30/Exton Bypass was built looked a lot better IMHO.
Quote from: famartin on June 25, 2019, 09:25:03 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:
Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQpW4AAGL08.jpg)
*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign.
IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0884819,-73.9274072,3a,75y,155.28h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saNoS2-4HY6J4IQaUxBE0iA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:
TOLL 2 MILES (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
SOUTH
295 TO 95
Philadelphia
I must agree, that sign is atrocious.
Having two I-295 shields on the same sign is overkill. FWIW, they should've put the direction change point (E-W to N-S, and vice versa) at Exit 67/US 1, where the transition between I-95 and I-295 occurred.
https://goo.gl/maps/YxVz7Kx2PU3PMg4k6
NYTA signs I-287 direction less where it enters NY from NJ. There it goes from North to East and no mention of the change at all.
https://goo.gl/maps/kJ6MTpPqYQ2tRLyC7
The same going the other way.
Nah, I don't think it's worth going around the country, looking up every single route that had a change of directions, and try to unjustify this new sign's existence.
And we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been. NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.
Quote from: akotchi on June 26, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
This is not a true beltway (more like the northern half of one), so the intuition of cardinal direction changes is likely not as well understood here. I get questions from neighbors, fellow parishioners and co-workers about this subject frequently. I usually shrug my shoulders before trying to explain it.
To understand it, and to fully explain it, is trying to go back in time. Without the Somerset Freeway, 95 north of Philly acted more as a spur route than a main interstate highway. 295 was never supposed to be a beltway, but rather a bypass. The result of the lack of 95 being completed as proposed in NJ was a little surgery northeast of Trenton to tie in where 95 and 295 would've originally met. But, the net result is the functionality of the area's highways changed. For those in Bucks County - they should be glad...there's no way 95 could've remained 2 lanes wide per direction if 95 was completed as originally designed.
In a way, there's still almost a full-fledged beltway. Take the 295 loop around Trenton, go East on 195, pick up the NJ Turnpike going south, take the PA Turnpike Extension, and you're back at the 95/295 interchange. Of course, there's no direct connection between the PA Turnpike and 295 North of the PA Turnpike, and the bypass would incur 3 separate route numbers and interchanges.
It's ironic that after years of Scudder Falls Bridge being 95, it was downgraded to 295 at the same time it was being widened from 4 to 9 lanes wide. And what became 95 is stuck at 4 lanes wide!
This is AARoads a discussion where we talk about things that could be better. NJ could have done it better IMO, but I am going to live with it just like I live with a traffic light in Breezwood, PA along I-70 even though its wrong for it to be there. I won't boycott the town though like some do on here either.
I even put up with this considering NJ to be a city and not a state as NYSTA does at Exit 15.
https://goo.gl/maps/F1LHnWSioKFWJA8y8
So how many tolled crossings going from NJ to PA will have no cash option once this project is done? Just I-95 and I-295?
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on June 26, 2019, 02:56:40 PMSo how many tolled crossings going from NJ to PA will have no cash option once this project is done? Just I-95 and I-295?
I believe those two are presently* the only cash-less Delaware River crossings thus far.
*I-295/Scudder Falls Bridge tolls go into effect this July 10th.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
Nah, I don't think it's worth going around the country, looking up every single route that had a change of directions, and try to unjustify this new sign's existence.
I agree. There are operational and historical differences between the examples cited to cause the treatments to be done the way they were at each location.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PM
Quote from: akotchi on June 26, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
This is not a true beltway (more like the northern half of one), so the intuition of cardinal direction changes is likely not as well understood here. I get questions from neighbors, fellow parishioners and co-workers about this subject frequently. I usually shrug my shoulders before trying to explain it.
To understand it, and to fully explain it, is trying to go back in time. Without the Somerset Freeway, 95 north of Philly acted more as a spur route than a main interstate highway. 295 was never supposed to be a beltway, but rather a bypass. The result of the lack of 95 being completed as proposed in NJ was a little surgery northeast of Trenton to tie in where 95 and 295 would've originally met. But, the net result is the functionality of the area's highways changed. For those in Bucks County - they should be glad...there's no way 95 could've remained 2 lanes wide per direction if 95 was completed as originally designed.
The challenge is explaining all that both briefly and in such a way that the questioner understands . . .
Quote from: kevinb1994 on June 25, 2019, 05:54:37 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 25, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 25, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
Courtesy of Zeffy on the NJ thread:
Quote from: Zeffy on June 25, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
Sorry for the garbage dash-cam photos, but I saw these lying around heading into PA on the Scudders Falls Bridge. They've actually made a fair amount of work in the past couple of months.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D973aQpW4AAGL08.jpg)
*Facepalm* on that BGS legend below the PAY TOLL 2 MILES sign.
IMHO, it would be better to either have similar signage to what the NYS Thruway (I-87/287) has on approaching the Tappan Zee (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0884819,-73.9274072,3a,75y,155.28h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saNoS2-4HY6J4IQaUxBE0iA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) with a 2 MILES (or 2 MILES AHEAD) in the main sign legend or maintain similar to what's shown above but eliminate the additional/redundant I-295 shield and the confusing, alternating direction cardinals so that the panel simply reads:
TOLL 2 MILES (IMHO, the term PAY implies stopping at a toll plaza)
SOUTH
295 TO 95
Philadelphia
Actually, the placement of the “TO” is more troublesome. Shouldn’t it be above the shields?
That's been MassDOT practice for several years now, to place 'TO' between the shields of the principal route and the routes being trailblazed.
In NJ that has always been the practice. Even if the trailblazed route is acting as a control city they will leave that part blank.
Hey look at IDOT and their signing of I-255 and I-24 where the spelled out Interstate 270 and Interstate 57 are used instead of doing what others do and use a shield next to it or beneath it.
If anyone is going to lose sleep over this then look at worse signing scenarios like Illinois. :D
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PMAnd we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been. NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.
And it shows. *ducks* :sombrero:
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent
more time on the subject than we have?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PMFor those in Bucks County - they should be glad...there's no way 95 could've remained 2 lanes wide per direction if 95 was completed as originally designed.
That's just it. The Delaware Expressway in Bucks County and the original/current Scudder Falls Bridge were designated as I-95 from the get-go... decades prior to NJDOT pulling the plug on the proposed Somerset Freeway section of I-95. With the above in mind, one has to wonder why the Bucks County stretch north of PA 413 (current Exit 39) and the original/current bridge wasn't built as a 6-laner from day one.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 27, 2019, 03:42:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PMAnd we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been. NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.
And it shows. *ducks* :sombrero:
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?
i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject
just this past week then those agencies did overall.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 27, 2019, 03:42:31 PM
The Delaware Expressway in Bucks County and the original/current Scudder Falls Bridge were designated as I-95 from the get-go... decades prior to NJDOT pulling the plug on the proposed Somerset Freeway section of I-95. With the above in mind, one has to wonder why the Bucks County stretch north of PA 413 (current Exit 39) and the original/current bridge wasn't built as a 6-laner from day one.
Maybe part of the same decision process that didn't provide a continuous 8 lanes between I-476 and Academy Road, but had several short 3-lane sections each way?
The current rebuilds between I-676 and Academy Road will provide a continuous 4 thru lanes each way, eliminating those annoying lane drops.
Quote from: Beltway on June 27, 2019, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 27, 2019, 03:42:31 PM
The Delaware Expressway in Bucks County and the original/current Scudder Falls Bridge were designated as I-95 from the get-go... decades prior to NJDOT pulling the plug on the proposed Somerset Freeway section of I-95. With the above in mind, one has to wonder why the Bucks County stretch north of PA 413 (current Exit 39) and the original/current bridge wasn't built as a 6-laner from day one.
Maybe part of the same decision process that didn't provide a continuous 8 lanes between I-476 and Academy Road, but had several short 3-lane sections each way?
It's worth noting that unlike the northern stretch in Bucks County; the stretch of I-95 in your description was likely designed & built under the presumption that other-but-ultimately-cancelled highways (I-695/Cobbs Creek & Crosstown, the Tacony/Pulaski, & 12-Mile-Loop Expressways) would eventually be built, thereby taking the traffic-pressure off I-95.
Quote from: Beltway on June 27, 2019, 05:09:25 PMThe current rebuilds between I-676 and Academy Road will provide a continuous 4 thru lanes each way, eliminating those annoying lane drops.
Absolutely.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 28, 2019, 08:23:05 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 27, 2019, 05:09:25 PM
Maybe part of the same decision process that didn't provide a continuous 8 lanes between I-476 and Academy Road, but had several short 3-lane sections each way?
It's worth noting that unlike the northern stretch in Bucks County; the stretch of I-95 in your description was likely designed & built under the presumption that other-but-ultimately-cancelled highways (I-695/Cobbs Creek & Crosstown, the Tacony/Pulaski, & 12-Mile-Loop Expressways) would eventually be built, thereby taking the traffic-pressure off I-95.
But then why not just make all of it 6 lanes instead what seems to be a 8-lane corridor with these lane drops?
I will grant that the large amount of exiting and entering traffic at I-676, that 3 thru lanes each way is appropriate between those exiting and entering ramps.
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 08:33:52 AMBut then why not just make all of it 6 lanes instead what seems to be a 8-lane corridor with these lane drops?
I will grant that the large amount of exiting and entering traffic at I-676, that 3 thru lanes each way is appropriate between those exiting and entering ramps.
To a degree, you just answered your own question. The 8-lane corridors (6 w/2 lane drops) at other interchanges was intended to accommodate higher volume entering/exiting traffic.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 28, 2019, 09:21:11 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 08:33:52 AMBut then why not just make all of it 6 lanes instead what seems to be a 8-lane corridor with these lane drops?
I will grant that the large amount of exiting and entering traffic at I-676, that 3 thru lanes each way is appropriate between those exiting and entering ramps.
To a degree, you just answered your own question. The 8-lane corridors (6 w/2 lane drops) at other interchanges was intended to accommodate higher volume entering/exiting traffic.
I didn't notice that on the segment completed in the late 1960s between Front Street and Academy Road.
There were three lane drops in one direction and four lane drops in the other direction, at local interchanges, and there didn't seen to be enough entering/leaving traffic to warrant these lane drops.
The 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 10:36:24 AMThe 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.
IIRC, when the Girard Point Bridge and related approaches were originally painted as 8 lanes total; there were no shoulders; which, for the bridge, was a problem in the event of vehicle break-downs/emergencies. Not sure when it was first repainted to the current 6 lanes w/shoulders (it's been such since
at least 1990); I'm
guessing such coincided with the 1985 opening of the
missing link between Exit 10 and Enterprise Ave., adjacent to the airport.
Quote from: odditude on June 27, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 27, 2019, 03:42:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PMAnd we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been. NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.
And it shows. *ducks* :sombrero:
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?
i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject just this past week then those agencies did overall.
Yep - you get it!
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2019, 11:34:16 AM
In NJ that has always been the practice. Even if the trailblazed route is acting as a control city they will leave that part blank.
I believe that was in reference to the placement of the 'To'. There is one location on Rt. 42 North where they placed it over the route, not in between the routes: https://goo.gl/maps/Svrbw8fEDK3pB2tLA . Personally, I always thought 'To' should be placed above each route shield that the exit will lead you to.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 28, 2019, 11:03:43 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 10:36:24 AMThe 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.
IIRC, when the Girard Point Bridge and related approaches were originally painted as 8 lanes total; there were no shoulders; which, for the bridge, was a problem in the event of vehicle break-downs/emergencies. Not sure when it was first repainted to the current 6 lanes w/shoulders (it's been such since at least 1990); I'm guessing such coincided with the 1985 opening of the missing link between Exit 10 and Enterprise Ave., adjacent to the airport.
The Girard Point Bridge did have right and left shoulders, just they appeared to be 4 feet wide. But then much of the elevated sections in Northeast Philadelphia were built the same way, so I surmise that the designers of the Girard Point Bridge were aware of that.
So a 56 foot wide bridge deck would mean a configuration of 4-12-12-12-12-4 or 10-12-12-12-10.
So the Girard Point Bridge was 3 lanes each way in 1990? I am surprised that it was changed that soon. The bridge opened I believe in 1977. The aforementioned 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge may have had something to do with the acceptability of reducing the number of lanes on the Girard Point Bridge, but I figured that Broad Street at IIRC 8 lanes was a major feeder to and from I-95 to the southwestern part of the city and to Delaware County, so I could see the desirability of having 8 lanes on the Girard Point Bridge.
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 03:37:07 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 28, 2019, 11:03:43 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 10:36:24 AMThe 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge was another matter, not sure why that wasn't built with 8 lanes, as originally the segment between Enterprise Avenue and Broad Street was painted with 4 lanes each way, and the segment between the Whitman Bridge and I-676 was built with (and still has) 8 lanes.
IIRC, when the Girard Point Bridge and related approaches were originally painted as 8 lanes total; there were no shoulders; which, for the bridge, was a problem in the event of vehicle break-downs/emergencies. Not sure when it was first repainted to the current 6 lanes w/shoulders (it's been such since at least 1990); I'm guessing such coincided with the 1985 opening of the missing link between Exit 10 and Enterprise Ave., adjacent to the airport.
The Girard Point Bridge did have right and left shoulders, just they appeared to be 4 feet wide.
I believe that the viaducts were constructed with such. The bridge itself had narrower shoulders if any. Either way, such (even at 4-feet) is still a bit narrow for vehicle break-downs or emergencies.
During a reconstruction project circa 2011-2012; the temporary striping for the Girard Point Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.892472,-75.1975729,3a,75y,51.17h,70.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEBIQ9w-cCgkfQ7_Ibe6mIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) reverted close/back to their original 70s locations. Based on the vintage GSV, such doesn't appear to have any shoulders let alone 4-foot wide ones.
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 03:37:07 PMBut then much of the elevated sections in Northeast Philadelphia were built the same way, so I surmise that the designers of the Girard Point Bridge were aware of that.
Most of the elevated sections in Northeast Philly are older than the Girard Point Bridge. Construction of the bridge BTW started in 1968 and was completed by 1973. I don't believe that shoulders, let alone wide ones, were mandated for bridges back then.
Quote from: Beltway on June 28, 2019, 03:37:07 PM
So the Girard Point Bridge was 3 lanes each way in 1990? I am surprised that it was changed that soon. The bridge opened I believe in 1977. The aforementioned 6-lane segment between Broad Street and the Whitman Bridge may have had something to do with the acceptability of reducing the number of lanes on the Girard Point Bridge, but I figured that Broad Street at IIRC 8 lanes was a major feeder to and from I-95 to the southwestern part of the city and to Delaware County, so I could see the desirability of having 8 lanes on the Girard Point Bridge.
Per my earlier & above-posted comments. The bridge was likely restriped to 6 lanes with shoulders on both sides when the last piece of I-95 (not counting last September's PA Turnpike-link ramps) opened in 1985. At the northern ends of the bridge; the striping transitions back to 8 lanes (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.897769,-75.1852169,3a,75y,71.57h,51.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOJ_EBu3a20MB7HG_YePYbA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) upon approaching the PA 611/Broad St. (Exit 17) interchange with the far-right lane being an exit-only lane. For the southbound lanes, The far-left lane starts at the entrance ramp from Exit 17 and blends in on along the actual bridge deck (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8982942,-75.1827998,3a,75y,290.54h,57.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMwaAQ-S3U3rllKI7p_LWpw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 28, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
The bridge was likely restriped to 6 lanes with shoulders on both sides when the last piece of I-95 (not counting last September's PA Turnpike-link ramps) opened in 1985.
Which is surprising as that is when the 8 to 10 lane wide I-95 was completed thru the airport area, which would have greatly increased traffic on the bridge, considering the minimal 4-lane arterial connection that Enterprise Avenue provided previously to that.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 28, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
At the northern ends of the bridge; the striping transitions back to 8 lanes (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.897769,-75.1852169,3a,75y,71.57h,51.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOJ_EBu3a20MB7HG_YePYbA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) upon approaching the PA 611/Broad St. (Exit 17) interchange with the far-right lane being an exit-only lane. For the southbound lanes, The far-left lane starts at the entrance ramp from Exit 17 and blends in on along the actual bridge deck (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8982942,-75.1827998,3a,75y,290.54h,57.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMwaAQ-S3U3rllKI7p_LWpw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
That last image looks exactly like what was originally carried across the bridge in both directions. If the shoulders aren't 4 feet wide they are at least 3 feet and while obviously not wide enough for a car, at least the parapet isn't right up against the edge of the traffic lane.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 28, 2019, 02:09:24 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 27, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 27, 2019, 03:42:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PMAnd we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been. NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.
And it shows. *ducks* :sombrero:
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?
i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject just this past week then those agencies did overall.
Yep - you get it!
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2019, 11:34:16 AM
In NJ that has always been the practice. Even if the trailblazed route is acting as a control city they will leave that part blank.
I believe that was in reference to the placement of the 'To'. There is one location on Rt. 42 North where they placed it over the route, not in between the routes: https://goo.gl/maps/Svrbw8fEDK3pB2tLA . Personally, I always thought 'To' should be placed above each route shield that the exit will lead you to.
With regard to this thread and the 95/Tpke Interchange thread, many of us proposed ideas as to how to deal with the situation of renumbering the old 95 between US 1 north of Trenton and the 95/Tpke interchange. Ideas involving numbering this as 195, 295, or a new number like 695. Ideas regarding how to delineate the change of direction so that we don't have two north-south 295's on both sides of the river. The state authorities did not listen and put in place what many feel is confusing signage.
The only remedy for this situation -- as well as other examples of confusing signage like where an E-W highway goes for several miles in the N-S direction (example: I-278 in Brooklyn and Queens)-- is that all of the relevant signage must use appropriate control cities. So far, it seems like that is happening, at least on the highway mainlines. Trenton, Princeton, Camden, and Philadelphia are used in an appropriate fashion at least at the highway mainline BGSes. So kudos to the state DOTs.
But I'm afraid there is not the same level of investment at on-ramps from local streets. A sign like these are woefully inadequate:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2884144,-74.7586971,3a,75y,244.81h,91.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srs_NsF4UWJ_qniJD4pkEiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2867267,-74.8112345,3a,75y,23.75h,77.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slsoZsFY4BN3SAYOktP4S4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I-295 south.
It means toward Camden, but wouldn't going to Philadelphia also be to the south. No, you need to go north then west then south.
Confusing.
New permanent guide sign put up for Exit 76/NJ 29. Unlike most NJ freeway signs, this one is missing the black border around the 29 shield (which is kinda hard to tell from my dashcam, but believe me).
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ghrxp4px/nj-exit76-newisgn.png)
They also threw up the other sign that I posted, covering up the PAY TOLL legend.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYLfp3Hh/nj-exit76-newisgn2.png)
Quote from: Zeffy on June 28, 2019, 06:13:01 PM
New permanent guide sign put up for Exit 76/NJ 29. Unlike most NJ freeway signs, this one is missing the black border around the 29 shield (which is kinda hard to tell from my dashcam, but believe me).
It's going on 3 or 4 years now since they stopped putting the black border around the shield.
^^^ To the comment above regarding the inadequacy of only trailblazer signing on the interchange crossroads ... when the section was still I-95, there were small guide signs with destinations. For whatever reason, most were removed when the resigning work was performed. Some said New York and Camden, but they should at least have been replaced. The one piece of guidance that would be mostly unchanged was removed ... shaking my head over that ...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 28, 2019, 02:09:24 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 27, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 27, 2019, 03:42:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2019, 02:05:36 PMAnd we're continuing to beat a dead horse on the topic of the location of the change in cardinal directions, or what route number it should've been. NJDOT, PennDOT and the Feds probably have spent much less time on the subject than we have.
And it shows. *ducks* :sombrero:
All kidding aside; did you, by any chance, mean to say that those agencies spent more time on the subject than we have?
i wouldn't be surprised if we've put more man-hours on the subject just this past week then those agencies did overall.
Yep - you get it!
Well played. :-D
Quote from: akotchi on June 28, 2019, 09:50:43 PM
^^^ To the comment above regarding the inadequacy of only trailblazer signing on the interchange crossroads ... when the section was still I-95, there were small guide signs with destinations. For whatever reason, most were removed when the resigning work was performed. Some said New York and Camden, but they should at least have been replaced. The one piece of guidance that would be mostly unchanged was removed ... shaking my head over that ...
With regards to ramp signage & the current designations/cardinals; it would be best to include a
Princeton-Bordentown or
Princeton-Camden panel for the I-295 South ramps through Federal City Road/Exit 71A-B interchange for the earlier-stated reasons.
For the I-295 northbound ramps from NJ 31/Exit 72 to Bear Tavern Road/Exit 75; such either should mimic the BGS ramp sign legends at other interchanges (US 1 & US 206) with the inclusion of the
TO SOUTH 95 legend
OR simply list
Yardley, PA, which does not need a supplemental
TO SOUTH 95 trailblazer assembly.
It was an oddity that NJDOT had them there in the first place as Interstate freeway ramps very rarely used guide signs hence I-287 has plenty and I-280 is another one.
Yes, New York needed to be removed for SB I-295 but Bordentown and Camden should have been used and Philadelphia should be used on all signs north of US 1 for NB direction.
I do like Princeton for north of I-195 though, despite many stated here before dislike for that destination, but then again they are the same users most likely that think Baltimore should be the NJ Turnpike SB destination after Camden instead of Wilmington which is now being used there.
NJ isn't that great for signing ramps leading into the highway...If they sign them at all! Long time missing signage here gives no notification that by continuing straight, you are heading onto I-295 North here. https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA Back up a little and at least there's a sign stating to turn left to (eventually) get to I-295 South.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
NJ isn't that great for signing ramps leading into the highway...If they sign them at all! Long time missing signage here gives no notification that by continuing straight, you are heading onto I-295 North here. https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA Back up a little and at least there's a sign stating to turn left to (eventually) get to I-295 South.
Unless that left turn/keep left sign along Grove Rd. (CR 643) was recently replaced; the one shown in the July 2018 GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8363645,-75.1939813,3a,75y,347.17h,71.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ7PmIPB9UAaPCV5HRnKayA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) erroneously lists
NORTH 295-130 TRENTON KEEP LEFT. While one
could argue that one needs to stay in the left lane to either go straight or left due to the right lane being for right turns only; that particular sign
should either have an upright arrow or list
STRAIGHT AHEAD en lieu of the
KEEP LEFT message.
Interestingly, there advance signage along Friars Blvd. in both directions for that I-295/US 130 northbound entrance ramp.
BTW, that ramp to I-295/US 130 North from the CR 643/Friars Blvd./Grove Road was constructed circa 2000-2001 (based on looking through Historic Aerials). So that fore-mentioned sign was correct... for 1998-1999 when Friars Blvd. was first built.
__________________________________________________
Back to the actual topic at hand:
Some transitional changes are coming next week with regards to the bridge(s).
Route 295 Drivers Get Ready For a Traffic Horror Show (https://nj1015.com/route-295-drivers-get-ready-for-a-traffic-horror-show/)
Bold emphasis added in below-quote/excerpt:
Quote from: NJ 101.5 articleStarting at 6 a.m. on Monday, July 8, and continuing until about 2 p.m. on Thursday, July 11, Pennsylvania-bound traffic on the highway will be reduced from 3 lanes to 1, starting in the vicinity of the County Route 579-Bear Tavern Road interchange, at exit 75.
During that time, crews will construct a new section of the highway, steering all lanes over toward the new Scudder Falls Bridge entrance.
Joe Donnelly, the deputy executive director of communications for the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commissio, said we know from prior emergency situations "that when there's a single-lane pattern it's possible that traffic could back up as far as Route 1. We're trying to get the word out for people to avoid this segment."
He said the worst congestion is expected between 2 and 8 p.m. on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, so "we're urging motorists to use the Trenton-Morrisville Route 1 toll Bridge as a travel alternative."
He said while congestion is expected to be severe, one mitigating factor is "this is occurring during the time of year when there's a large number of vacations, so there's fewer commuters, and school is out."
When the new Scudder Falls Bridge does open on July 10, after two years of construction, it will initially carry two lanes of Pennsylvania-bound traffic, while New Jersey-bound traffic will continue to cross the Delaware River on the old Scudder Falls Bridge.
The two bridges will remain in service in this configuration for two weeks, and then on July 24 New Jersey-bound traffic will be shifted onto the new Scudder Falls Bridge, with a concrete divider separating the opposing directions of traffic.
The Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission will begin collecting tolls for Pennsylvania-bound vehicles beginning in the early morning hours of July 14.
The DRJTBC's website still lists that the PA-bound tolls will start on July 10. Either NJ 101.5 made an error on the date or DRJTBC didn't update their website yet.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 02, 2019, 11:50:51 AM
The DRJTBC's website still lists that the PA-bound tolls will start on July 10. Either NJ 101.5 made an error on the date or DRJTBC didn't update their website yet.
Their press release also says July 14 for tolling.
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/important-announcement-lane-closures-travel-pattern-changes-traffic-shifts-scheduled-to-open-new-scudder-falls-toll-bridges-first-completed-span-new-bridge-opens-july-10-tolls-start-jul/
QuoteJuly 14 — Tolling Begins in PA-Bound Direction on the New Scudder Falls Toll Bridge — Early in the morning of Sunday, July 14 — at a second after midnight — the new All-Electronic Tolling (AET) gantry on the Pennsylvania side of the new Scudder Falls Toll Bridge will go live.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
NJ isn't that great for signing ramps leading into the highway...If they sign them at all! Long time missing signage here gives no notification that by continuing straight, you are heading onto I-295 North here. https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA (https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA) Back up a little and at least there's a sign stating to turn left to (eventually) get to I-295 South.
This is a great example of why "freeway entrance" signs, which are common in California and a few other western states, are a good idea. In a situation like this, a freeway entrance sign will alert the driver that they are entering the highway.
Quote from: mrsman on July 02, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
NJ isn't that great for signing ramps leading into the highway...If they sign them at all! Long time missing signage here gives no notification that by continuing straight, you are heading onto I-295 North here. https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA (https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA) Back up a little and at least there's a sign stating to turn left to (eventually) get to I-295 South.
This is a great example of why "freeway entrance" signs, which are common in California and a few other western states, are a good idea. In a situation like this, a freeway entrance sign will alert the driver that they are entering the highway.
The problem is the sign was hit or fell and was never replaced. The same would happen with a freeway entrance sign as well.
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 02, 2019, 08:32:55 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 02, 2019, 11:50:51 AMThe DRJTBC's website still lists that the PA-bound tolls will start on July 10. Either NJ 101.5 made an error on the date or DRJTBC didn't update their website yet.
Their press release also says July 14 for tolling.
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/important-announcement-lane-closures-travel-pattern-changes-traffic-shifts-scheduled-to-open-new-scudder-falls-toll-bridges-first-completed-span-new-bridge-opens-july-10-tolls-start-jul/
QuoteJuly 14 — Tolling Begins in PA-Bound Direction on the New Scudder Falls Toll Bridge — Early in the morning of Sunday, July 14 — at a second after midnight — the new All-Electronic Tolling (AET) gantry on the Pennsylvania side of the new Scudder Falls Toll Bridge will go live.
I double-checked their main webpage again today. Thus far, such hasn't yet been updated to show the correct date with respect
to their own press-release.
That said, the press-release info. governs in this particular case.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2019, 10:23:35 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 02, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
NJ isn't that great for signing ramps leading into the highway...If they sign them at all! Long time missing signage here gives no notification that by continuing straight, you are heading onto I-295 North here. https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA Back up a little and at least there's a sign stating to turn left to (eventually) get to I-295 South.
This is a great example of why "freeway entrance" signs, which are common in California and a few other western states, are a good idea. In a situation like this, a freeway entrance sign will alert the driver that they are entering the highway.
The problem is the sign was hit or fell and was never replaced. The same would happen with a freeway entrance sign as well.
And probably has happened somewhere.
I liked those little freeway entrance signs when I visited California in 1981. Back then those signs didn't have route shields attached IIRC. When did they start adding route shields?
ixnay
The Parkway and Turnpike both have their own entry guides that are uniform, Not California, but even then they can use both and have the shields on both sides pointing down to the pavement and use Freeway Entrance for the interstates and NJ 18 and 55, and have Parkway Entrance as well for the Parkway ramps with the shields and down arrows after the ramp starts still using the famous trapezoid signs.
The NJ Turnpike with its trumpet T set ups makes it more difficult to do that, but NJ 18 has it going NB with the two shields and down arrows so a place card reading Turnpike Entrance could work so yeah one could be fit to work as well.
Quote from: ixnay on July 03, 2019, 09:08:55 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2019, 10:23:35 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 02, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
NJ isn't that great for signing ramps leading into the highway...If they sign them at all! Long time missing signage here gives no notification that by continuing straight, you are heading onto I-295 North here. https://goo.gl/maps/wn1ox4ZWJVGwY3WHA Back up a little and at least there's a sign stating to turn left to (eventually) get to I-295 South.
This is a great example of why "freeway entrance" signs, which are common in California and a few other western states, are a good idea. In a situation like this, a freeway entrance sign will alert the driver that they are entering the highway.
The problem is the sign was hit or fell and was never replaced. The same would happen with a freeway entrance sign as well.
And probably has happened somewhere.
I liked those little freeway entrance signs when I visited California in 1981. Back then those signs didn't have route shields attached IIRC. When did they start adding route shields?
ixnay
I can't remember the exact date, but it was probably in the late 1980's. I do remember them from my childhood.
The reason I brought up the freeway entrance signs is because I often hear from people that such things aren't simply needed, because it is generally obvious that you are entering a freeway because you are leaving a street and then taking some type of ramp right onto the freeway. Well, the example above is a good example (Grove Rd in West Deptford, NJ) to why having the signage is a good idea. You can be driving along and you see signage alerting you about the freeway. YOu think, great, this will lead me toward the freeway. If you want the freeway, you will follow the signs. But you may also follow the signs if you want to go toward the freeway, even if you don't want to get on the freeway. (An example of this is if you need gas, you want to go toward the freeway because you will use the freeway after you get gas, but you don't want to enter the freeway until you get gas.) Since the road becomes a freeway ramp as soon as you cross Friars Blvd (i.e. just drive straight on), simply seeing the typical green signs, you feel simply guide you toward the freeway. You would need an adequate warning that hey, you're not just driving towards the freeway, you are actually on it, and now you have to get up to speed. The freeway entrance signs provide such warning. They also provide a warning that if you just want to be near the freeway, but not on the freeway, (such as looking for nearby parking, or looking for a business) you need to turn onto Friars so that you don't unwittingly end up on the freeway and have to drive for a while before you can exit.
There aren't too many streets that force you onto an onramp like this, but the warning is appropriate. It is similar to warnings that you may see such as "last exit before bridge."
Quote from: mrsman on July 04, 2019, 12:25:11 AM
I can't remember the exact date, but it was probably in the late 1980's. I do remember them from my childhood.
The reason I brought up the freeway entrance signs is because I often hear from people that such things aren't simply needed, because it is generally obvious that you are entering a freeway because you are leaving a street and then taking some type of ramp right onto the freeway. Well, the example above is a good example (Grove Rd in West Deptford, NJ) to why having the signage is a good idea. You can be driving along and you see signage alerting you about the freeway. YOu think, great, this will lead me toward the freeway. If you want the freeway, you will follow the signs. But you may also follow the signs if you want to go toward the freeway, even if you don't want to get on the freeway. (An example of this is if you need gas, you want to go toward the freeway because you will use the freeway after you get gas, but you don't want to enter the freeway until you get gas.) Since the road becomes a freeway ramp as soon as you cross Friars Blvd (i.e. just drive straight on), simply seeing the typical green signs, you feel simply guide you toward the freeway. You would need an adequate warning that hey, you're not just driving towards the freeway, you are actually on it, and now you have to get up to speed. The freeway entrance signs provide such warning. They also provide a warning that if you just want to be near the freeway, but not on the freeway, (such as looking for nearby parking, or looking for a business) you need to turn onto Friars so that you don't unwittingly end up on the freeway and have to drive for a while before you can exit.
There aren't too many streets that force you onto an onramp like this, but the warning is appropriate. It is similar to warnings that you may see such as "last exit before bridge."
Or...replace the 295 sign, which will specific the highway you're about to enter.
Besides...no one calls them freeways around here.
I get your point...but the "North 295 (arrow)" signage would be more meaningful than "Freeway Entrance". An increase to highway speed can't really be done until you start to round the curve ahead.
Its one of those things where I look around the country and wonder...does a few states do it better than the majority of the ststes, when it comes to signage such as "Freeway Entrance". In this case...no. Because that sign alone doesn't tell me anything about the route in getting on. "North 295" is much more meaningful.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 04, 2019, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 04, 2019, 12:25:11 AM
I can't remember the exact date, but it was probably in the late 1980's. I do remember them from my childhood.
The reason I brought up the freeway entrance signs is because I often hear from people that such things aren't simply needed, because it is generally obvious that you are entering a freeway because you are leaving a street and then taking some type of ramp right onto the freeway. Well, the example above is a good example (Grove Rd in West Deptford, NJ) to why having the signage is a good idea. You can be driving along and you see signage alerting you about the freeway. YOu think, great, this will lead me toward the freeway. If you want the freeway, you will follow the signs. But you may also follow the signs if you want to go toward the freeway, even if you don't want to get on the freeway. (An example of this is if you need gas, you want to go toward the freeway because you will use the freeway after you get gas, but you don't want to enter the freeway until you get gas.) Since the road becomes a freeway ramp as soon as you cross Friars Blvd (i.e. just drive straight on), simply seeing the typical green signs, you feel simply guide you toward the freeway. You would need an adequate warning that hey, you're not just driving towards the freeway, you are actually on it, and now you have to get up to speed. The freeway entrance signs provide such warning. They also provide a warning that if you just want to be near the freeway, but not on the freeway, (such as looking for nearby parking, or looking for a business) you need to turn onto Friars so that you don't unwittingly end up on the freeway and have to drive for a while before you can exit.
There aren't too many streets that force you onto an onramp like this, but the warning is appropriate. It is similar to warnings that you may see such as "last exit before bridge."
Or...replace the 295 sign, which will specific the highway you're about to enter.
Besides...no one calls them freeways around here.
I get your point...but the "North 295 (arrow)" signage would be more meaningful than "Freeway Entrance". An increase to highway speed can't really be done until you start to round the curve ahead.
Its one of those things where I look around the country and wonder...does a few states do it better than the majority of the states, when it comes to signage such as "Freeway Entrance". In this case...no. Because that sign alone doesn't tell me anything about the route in getting on. "North 295" is much more meaningful.
Most freeway entrance signs also include the highway and direction.
Here's another example where a regular city street suddenly becomes a freeway on-ramp (and eventually a bridge over the river):
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8862065,-77.0319879,3a,75y,197.95h,87.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIH77ZnQ8KwtdNvnyQXkCJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
14th st SW in Downtown DC.
This one is particularly jarring to me, since it is also in a highly tourist area. Along this stretch are two tourist attractions, Holocaust Museum and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing (tours are offered to see how dollar bills are printed). While parking is not allowed on 14th St, it is still common to drop off people at the curb, especially if you have elderly people or handicapped or young kids who can't walk well. You think, great, let me drop them off here quickly and I will go circle the block for parking. The problem is, is that if you don't make that LEFT turn onto C Street, you have no place to exit until you reach Virginia. And there is no warning of this.
[This wasn't always the case, there is a block of D Street between 14th and Raoul Wallenberg on the south side of the BEP that could be used as a way to go around the block. But that block has been commandeered as a private street for Treasury Dept. vehicles, as seen in the link below.]
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.88483,-77.0319909,3a,75y,268.12h,83.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK1B-LyVJbjhvEIF8bOcrIA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The point that I am trying to make is that, other than freeway entrance signs, there is almost no way to effectively let people know that they have now reached the point of no return with respect to a freeway on-ramp. The signs that are currently used can also be used to let you know that the freeway is coming up, but not necessarily that the entrance is right here right now.
Or they could put a sign that says, "no outlet except to freeway"
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0668058,-118.2360476,3a,75y,313.97h,86.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQ3NL6jAEfp4oY56gC2LxlQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Now bringing the topic back to NJ, this is distinct from the entrances for the Parkway and NJTP as you have noted. But those areas have signs that say "Parkway entrance" or the equivalent, which provide the same function. I don't recall anything similar for other highways like I-80 or I-295 or other interstates in NJ (or most eastern states).
Something like this should really appear at all limited access highway entrances, not just toll roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1212142,-74.7065868,3a,75y,44.16h,84.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUWvkxH4k6bqse17FImmzxA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DUWvkxH4k6bqse17FImmzxA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D352.54922%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I just GSV'd down Congress Pkwy approaching the beginning of I-290/Eisenhower Expressway in Chicago...there is no real signage there, at the last cross-street stoplight @ Wells St, that it is an Expressway (which in Chicago means Freeway) ahead - not even the usual IDOT "Prohibited" list of vehicles and pedestrians not allowed on Freeways. The BGSs ahead for I-90/94 and I-290 are easily seen from the Wells stoplight, tho
Heading Inbound to the Chicago South Loop area, there is an overhead "Expressway Ends" sign, right before driving thru the Old Post Office building. Probably should be a matching "Expressway Begins" sign going Outbound, between Wells St and the Draw Bridge
The South Loop area gets plenty of Foot traffic as well. Probably more Locals who work and/or live there, but there are tourist spots not too far away
I saw on a 1962 Esso Map that the Scudders Falls Bridge was to connect to NJ 129 as I-95 was to use the Trenton Freeway and have its own other alignment instead of the cancelled Somerset Freeway. That explains why all the years the old bridge was substandard and not up to interstate specs.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 06, 2019, 12:24:12 PM
I saw on a 1962 Esso Map that the Scudders Falls Bridge was to connect to NJ 129 as I-95 was to use the Trenton Freeway and have its own other alignment instead of the cancelled Somerset Freeway. That explains why all the years the old bridge was substandard and not up to interstate specs.
IIRC, the info. on those Esso maps weren't always immediately updated following a change.
The highway north of Trenton (old I-95/current I-295) was initially proposed as NJ 129. Not 100% sure when such was actually designated as then-I-95 but I believe it was either when the road actually built (early 60s) or when the Bucks County PA portion was completed during the mid-60s. When the original Scudder Falls Bridge first opened, the PA portion of the highway only went as far as the first interchange (Newtown/Yardley).
Yes as there was talk of taking I-95 through Trenton at that time. The state was unsure of the actual routing, but nonetheless NJ 129 was a proposal of that freeway as I-95 would have went east of US 1 to East Brunswick where it would have interchanged with the Turnpike.
Probably short lived and General Drafting was slow to update at the time. Though interesting to see what ideas went on at the time on these maps.
I don't think the Garden State Parkway entrance signs are posted when a road randomly becomes an onramp. The case I can think of is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5611648,-74.3269491,3a,75y,97.01h,83.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjpZQe8tVq8U_YYvBevnDqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
No notice that Wood Ave becomes a Parkway onramp beyond this light.
As for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Quote from: bzakharin on July 08, 2019, 03:50:26 PMAs for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Ambiguous? Such looks pretty straight forward to me.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 08, 2019, 05:20:46 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 08, 2019, 03:50:26 PMAs for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Ambiguous? Such looks pretty straight forward to me.
I think the idea is that it's a bit ambiguous that that's the ONLY thing in that direction. I think.
Quote from: famartin on July 08, 2019, 09:46:00 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 08, 2019, 05:20:46 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 08, 2019, 03:50:26 PMAs for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Ambiguous? Such looks pretty straight forward to me.
I think the idea is that it's a bit ambiguous that that's the ONLY thing in that direction. I think.
Why else would someone go or turn in that direction?
Quote from: bzakharin on July 08, 2019, 03:50:26 PM
I don't think the Garden State Parkway entrance signs are posted when a road randomly becomes an onramp. The case I can think of is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5611648,-74.3269491,3a,75y,97.01h,83.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjpZQe8tVq8U_YYvBevnDqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
No notice that Wood Ave becomes a Parkway onramp beyond this light.
As for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
I used to work at the Prudential and you be surprised at the semi traffic that had to make u turns because South Wood Avenue defaulted into the 131A trumpet.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 08, 2019, 03:50:26 PM
I don't think the Garden State Parkway entrance signs are posted when a road randomly becomes an onramp. The case I can think of is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5611648,-74.3269491,3a,75y,97.01h,83.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjpZQe8tVq8U_YYvBevnDqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
No notice that Wood Ave becomes a Parkway onramp beyond this light.
As for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
The Turnpike Entrance signs at that point of Int 12 are not ambiguous at all. It's very clear that if you go straight ahead, you're getting on the Turnpike. They have also put up various other signs on the driftway indicating that you turned left to get on the Turnpike. They replaced that sign, but not the green on white overhead (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5924553,-74.2315982,3a,29.9y,119.91h,97.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD9VROwx8uSfiIKR0Z7o-DA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) on Roosevelt Ave, which would have been useful to be replaced with a properly MUTCD compliant sign (there's also the unique 6__ shields here for the Industrial Hwy since I guess the NJTA assumed it was going to be a county route, but Middlesex County was perfectly content to leave it in Carteret's hands).
The fact that Wood Ave just turns into a Parkway ramp with little warning. Eh, that's not great. At least needs a few "no trucks beyond this point" signs by the APA driveway.
No matter how many signs you place and how straight forward they are, people are not going to read them. So basically people who are going to enter a freeway by mistake are going to regardless especially if the GPS sends them there.
Signs and route numbers are becoming a thing of the past as the GPS is become God and it is the way that "everybody" uses in most people's mind and its an excuse for mistakes of the common driver in 80 percent of the driver's minds who operate motor vehicles..
Quote from: roadman65 on July 09, 2019, 08:57:02 AM
... the GPS is become God
Feel free to read my signature below.
Also & contrary to popular belief; signs & route numbers
STILL have relevance... signs in particular.
These examples (two of them from Australia) come to mind.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnnimgt-a.akamaihd.net%2Ftransform%2Fv1%2Fcrop%2Ffrm%2Fgreg.gliddon%2Fbfefcaee-3ef6-4350-a7ae-aabc7fe7d467.jpg%2Fr0_0_612_1086_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg&hash=7090f8072b7f5edda4b2cfcd10c2aec60524e71c)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0c/e8/2f/0ce82fcd352f759e521be6e5d8a16fad.jpg)
(https://d1acid63ghtydj.cloudfront.net/02-21-2019/t_f058cc41e0954429baacd9da2c16fed3_name_file_1280x720_2000_v3_1_.jpg)
Here's one that uses a route number in its message:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/content/uploads/2018/01/GPS.jpg)
VMS example in Wrentham, MA near the Outlet stores:
(https://media.necn.com/images/1200*675/Police_Tell_Public_to_Ignore_GPS_at_Wrentham_Outlets.jpg)
Additionally & last time I checked, most if not all driver's tests
include identifying traffic signs and what each one represents/stands for.
Just because it's on the test doesn't mean people actually bother to look at the signs when following GPS. Heck, people have driven into lakes before!
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2019, 12:49:36 PMHeck, people have driven into lakes before!
And
whose fault is that?
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2019, 12:49:36 PM
Just because it's on the test doesn't mean people actually bother to look at the signs when following GPS. Heck, people have driven into lakes before!
Not even GPS. The signs on a test are very basic stuff...what do you do at a red, 8 sided sign with STOP written on it? Or, what do you do when you see an advisory speed sign? Road tests aren't asking potential drivers to review 200 different signs and writing the meaning for each.
Go back to the days before GPS (which honestly wasn't all that long ago). People still drove into lakes. People still drove the wrong way down one way roads. People still got lost. Why? Because their *written* directions were wrong, or a closed road sent people on unknown paths. Why didn't we hear about it? Because the internet wasn't really around; Facebook wasn't around to quickly share such news stories, and the local news tended to focus on local news, not the latest Twitter uproar.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 09, 2019, 01:07:40 PMThe signs on a test are very basic stuff...what do you do at a red, 8 sided sign with STOP written on it? Or, what do you do when you see an advisory speed sign? Road tests aren't asking potential drivers to review 200 different signs and writing the meaning for each.
Yes and no. Will a test consist of 200 signs to review? No. However, how much emphasis/percentage of a driver's test is traffic sign-based can vary from state to state. When I changed my driver's license from MA to PA back in 1991;
at least 75% of the test questions back then were sign-based. Much more than when I was first going for my license in MA back in 1982.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 09, 2019, 01:07:40 PMGo back to the days before GPS (which honestly wasn't all that long ago). People still drove into lakes. People still drove the wrong way down one way roads. People still got lost. Why? Because their *written* directions were wrong, or a closed road sent people on unknown paths. Why didn't we hear about it? Because the internet wasn't really around; Facebook wasn't around to quickly share such news stories, and the local news tended to focus on local news, not the latest Twitter uproar.
You forgot, poorly-placed and/or worded signs as well as operating under the influence of alcohol or drugs; the latter being a more likely reason for why someone would unintentionally drive into a lake back then.
Let's not kid ourselves that such could have been
contributory causes for many of the above-described mishaps especially pre-GPS.
Could one make similar mistakes by reading a vague road map? Sure, but unlike the commonly mistaken
GPS makes signs obsolete notion; maps were
never intended to replace or be a substitute for road/traffic signs.
As I've posted before, at least my GPS often reads verbatim what's on the exit sign I should be taking, so I can be sure I'm taking the right exit. Same with street names when making a turn. So signs are far from useless.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 09, 2019, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 09, 2019, 08:57:02 AM
... the GPS is become God
Feel free to read my signature below.
Also & contrary to popular belief; signs & route numbers STILL have relevance... signs in particular.
These examples (two of them from Australia) come to mind.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnnimgt-a.akamaihd.net%2Ftransform%2Fv1%2Fcrop%2Ffrm%2Fgreg.gliddon%2Fbfefcaee-3ef6-4350-a7ae-aabc7fe7d467.jpg%2Fr0_0_612_1086_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg&hash=7090f8072b7f5edda4b2cfcd10c2aec60524e71c)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0c/e8/2f/0ce82fcd352f759e521be6e5d8a16fad.jpg)
(https://d1acid63ghtydj.cloudfront.net/02-21-2019/t_f058cc41e0954429baacd9da2c16fed3_name_file_1280x720_2000_v3_1_.jpg)
Here's one that uses a route number in its message:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/content/uploads/2018/01/GPS.jpg)
VMS example in Wrentham, MA near the Outlet stores:
(https://media.necn.com/images/1200*675/Police_Tell_Public_to_Ignore_GPS_at_Wrentham_Outlets.jpg)
Additionally & last time I checked, most if not all driver's tests include identifying traffic signs and what each one represents/stands for.
Yes but to many folks it is, just like their favorite movie actor and stuff is the way because they see others do it. Remember the old saying "Monkey see, monkey do" or "Monkey see, monkey does?" That is what s going on these days. Many folks argue because each one sees many doing different things but each one considers the norm to what their crowd sees or does.
That is why you ask a Leftist why he hates the right and most will say "Everybody I know and see hates the right and Faux is reporting non factual info' They must because I know nobody who likes Trump in my everyday routine. Then ditto with the Right saying "I know the Right is right, because everyone I see hates the left and CNN is fake news."
We believe what we hear and see despite we do not see and hear everything. The same with the phones as we buy a phone that everyone else has and so must we.
Sad to say most people think the GPS is the only way to navigate in the world because they either forgot what is was like before or with the millennials they never saw how we existed before the Waze and Google apps.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 09, 2019, 09:48:30 PMSad to say most people think the GPS is the only way to navigate in the world because they either forgot what is was like before or with the millennials they never saw how we existed before the Waze and Google apps.
From the various GPS mishap stories I've heard over the years, including a bus that struck a low overpass in Boston the along overheight-vehicle-restricted Soldiers Field Road circa 2013 injuring 35 passengers (one then-teenager's been a quadriplegic since), most if not all of the offenders were old enough to have gotten their licenses years if not decades before GPS became widely used. In short & of all people, they
should've known better.
That said, the fore-mentioned
Monkey See/monkey do mindset is
NOT a reason/excuse for the dismissal of and/or no longer erecting signs.
___________________________________________
Back to the topic at handThe PA-bound tolls for the new Scudder Falls Bridge goes in effect today. One of the new Scudder Falls Bridge spans opened today. The PA-bound tolls will go in effect this Sunday July 14.
The point wasn't to say that signs are no longer needed. It was that putting them there will not force people who think they can ignore them due to GPS to read them.
That is it there is no common sense in the world today and people are ignorant to the point of knowing things that were damned well taught to them in grade school and even some to the point of being disciplined for as well.
Wilfrid a former coworker got reprimanded for a mistake he made by our boss, but months later forgot all about it and committed the same infraction again. When I confronted him to say it was wrong he acted like he did not know it was wrong, and furthermore when I reminded him that Patrick (our boss at the time) chewed him out big, he did not remember it at all!
Yet it happens even here. Look at some of the trolls on here that get even banned then come back days later and act like they never were banned. I won't say names but we all know one user on here that gets a free pass for being rude and insulting especially to new members whom he never met before on here and in real life! The rest of us would get punched out if we behaved like this one person, but this guy has the grace of Heaven protecting him from harm and the same goes with drivers. Some commit mistakes we all would get caught at or in a accident from paying out high insurance for these while many drivers go around their entire life without an incident and will go to the grave with no knowledge that they were living on the edge.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 10, 2019, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 09, 2019, 09:48:30 PMSad to say most people think the GPS is the only way to navigate in the world because they either forgot what is was like before or with the millennials they never saw how we existed before the Waze and Google apps.
From the various GPS mishap stories I've heard over the years, including a bus that struck a low overpass in Boston the along overheight-vehicle-restricted Soldiers Field Road circa 2013 injuring 35 passengers (one then-teenager's been a quadriplegic since), most if not all of the offenders were old enough to have gotten their licenses years if not decades before GPS became widely used. In short & of all people, they should've known better.
That said, the fore-mentioned Monkey See/monkey do mindset is NOT a reason/excuse for the dismissal of and/or no longer erecting signs.
___________________________________________
Back to the topic at hand
The PA-bound tolls for the new Scudder Falls Bridge goes in effect today.
This is what I just responded to.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 10, 2019, 01:33:40 PMThis is what I just responded to.
And my earlier reply, that I'll admit derailed this thread further than it already went, was to your earlier
"Signs and route numbers are becoming a thing of the past as the GPS is become God" comment. While there, no doubt & sadly, are many that have that mindset; such is, again,
not an excuse to no longer erect signs.
Quote from: storm2k on July 09, 2019, 02:10:06 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 08, 2019, 03:50:26 PM
I don't think the Garden State Parkway entrance signs are posted when a road randomly becomes an onramp. The case I can think of is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5611648,-74.3269491,3a,75y,97.01h,83.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjpZQe8tVq8U_YYvBevnDqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
No notice that Wood Ave becomes a Parkway onramp beyond this light.
As for the Turnpike, the "turnpike entrance" sign here was replaced by something more ambiguous:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5927246,-74.2263624,3a,75y,276.92h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slW2_3AW0X39MH4M4PVUm7Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
The Turnpike Entrance signs at that point of Int 12 are not ambiguous at all. It's very clear that if you go straight ahead, you're getting on the Turnpike. They have also put up various other signs on the driftway indicating that you turned left to get on the Turnpike. They replaced that sign, but not the green on white overhead (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5924553,-74.2315982,3a,29.9y,119.91h,97.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD9VROwx8uSfiIKR0Z7o-DA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) on Roosevelt Ave, which would have been useful to be replaced with a properly MUTCD compliant sign (there's also the unique 6__ shields here for the Industrial Hwy since I guess the NJTA assumed it was going to be a county route, but Middlesex County was perfectly content to leave it in Carteret's hands).
The fact that Wood Ave just turns into a Parkway ramp with little warning. Eh, that's not great. At least needs a few "no trucks beyond this point" signs by the APA driveway.
The Wood Ave example is exactly the circumstance that should be given warning. Especially becasue there are truck restrictions. [At least this part of the Pkwy is toll-free, but that would be another reason to warn of the entrance.]
People driving around looking for gas stations should not be suddenly onto a freeway without warning. The fact that trucks are actually turning around there shows that there is a problem that signage could fix.
Before the bridge becomes tolled and I alter my route home I was able to drive over the new span. Here's a video of it. They did a good job overall.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 10, 2019, 01:58:54 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 10, 2019, 01:33:40 PMThis is what I just responded to.
And my earlier reply, that I'll admit derailed this thread further than it already went, was to your earlier "Signs and route numbers are becoming a thing of the past as the GPS is become God" comment. While there, no doubt & sadly, are many that have that mindset; such is, again, not an excuse to no longer erect signs.
No but the way people over trust the GPS seems to suggest they are a waste. Me personally no and I don't think they are ever going to go away.
I see that the project is moving along --
Replace the current congestion-prone, functionally obsolete Scudder Falls Bridge with a dual-span structure carrying six thru-traffic lanes (three in each direction) and three auxiliary lanes (two Pennsylvania to New Jersey bound, one New Jersey to Pennsylvania bound) for traffic merging onto and off the bridge and shoulders for breakdown/emergency access.
Widen the bridge's Pennsylvania I-295 approach, increasing the roadway to three lanes in each direction. Improve drainage and approach-roadway exit/entry transitions in New Jersey; both project components to be completed in 2021.
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/construction/
Project Construction Start Spring 2017
First span of new bridge open to traffic -- Opened overnight July 9, 2019
Start All-Electronic Tolling (PA-bound only) -- July 14, 2019
Second span of new bridge open to traffic -- Late 2021
Estimated Project Completion -- Early 2022
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/construction/update/
I commute to Mercer from Bucks. I can already see congestion relief while merging westbound from Nj29 route during evening commute compared to when old bridge was operating. Can't wait for project completion. It is worth paying Toll in my situation considering I have NJ EZ pass.
What sucks about AET though is if you have a rental car as those daily usage fees are quite high! I think I would drive up Route 29 and cross at the Washington Crossing Bridge, or drive down NJ 29 to Calhoun Street to avoid those fees if I have to drive a rental up there.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 19, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
What sucks about AET though is if you have a rental car as those daily usage fees are quite high! I think I would drive up Route 29 and cross at the Washington Crossing Bridge, or drive down NJ 29 to Calhoun Street to avoid those fees if I have to drive a rental up there.
From what I've read/heard,
that has probably been the #1 complaint regarding AET, regardless of where it's been implemented.
A couple of years ago when I did a r/t day-trip to BOS (PHL-BOS fares were significantly cheaper than PHL-PVD fares due to competition w/JetBlue on that route) in order to attend a college alumni function in Providence, RI; the rental car company offered use of an E-ZPass transponder for a flat $10 daily fee which was higher than the r/t E-ZPass toll of $3.50 for the Ted Williams Tunnel (I-90). Could I have shunpiked the harbor crossing toll by taking back roads through East Boston & Chelsea to access MA 99? Sure but since I was pressed for time for the trip down to RI; I didn't bother.
On the way back to BOS & since I had plenty of time to catch my return light to PHL, I detoured along the Mass Pike Extension to make the usage of the rental's transponder worth my while.
IMHO, rather than going AET; it would've been better to simply have E-ZPass Express lanes with cash toll booths off to the right-hand side. While such would require more real estate than AET gantries for new toll facilities; it would eliminate being forced to pay (shunpike routes may not be known/possible/practical) exorbitant AET-related transponder fees that many rental car companies are charging. In non-AET situations, if one didn't want to use the rental car company-issued E-ZPass; one just simply paid the cash toll out of their own pocket and that was that.
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 20, 2020, 09:00:17 AM
IMHO, rather than going AET; it would've been better to simply have E-ZPass Express lanes with cash toll booths off to the right-hand side. While such would require more real estate than AET gantries for new toll facilities; it would eliminate being forced to pay (shunpike routes may not be known/possible/practical) exorbitant AET-related transponder fees that many rental car companies are charging. In non-AET situations, if one didn't want to use the rental car company-issued E-ZPass; one just simply paid the cash toll out of their own pocket and that was that.
I think that advances in AET have too much going for it to continue building combo-tollplazas that have both ET and manual tolls. That is a lot more construction compared to AET where it can be installed over the highway with a standard cross-section.
What about a long rental of say a week? It is one thing to pay $10 a day for two days, but another for a whole week.
I wonder if there are any new proposals about how to solve this problem in an AET system.
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 20, 2020, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 19, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
What sucks about AET though is if you have a rental car as those daily usage fees are quite high! I think I would drive up Route 29 and cross at the Washington Crossing Bridge, or drive down NJ 29 to Calhoun Street to avoid those fees if I have to drive a rental up there.
From what I've read/heard, that has probably been the #1 complaint regarding AET, regardless of where it's been implemented.
A couple of years ago when I did a r/t day-trip to BOS (PHL-BOS fares were significantly cheaper than PHL-PVD fares due to competition w/JetBlue on that route) in order to attend a college alumni function in Providence, RI; the rental car company offered use of an E-ZPass transponder for a flat $10 daily fee which was higher than the r/t E-ZPass toll of $3.50 for the Ted Williams Tunnel (I-90). Could I have shunpiked the harbor crossing toll by taking back roads through East Boston & Chelsea to access MA 99? Sure but since I was pressed for time for the trip down to RI; I didn't bother.
On the way back to BOS & since I had plenty of time to catch my return light to PHL, I detoured along the Mass Pike Extension to make the usage of the rental's transponder worth my while.
IMHO, rather than going AET; it would've been better to simply have E-ZPass Express lanes with cash toll booths off to the right-hand side. While such would require more real estate than AET gantries for new toll facilities; it would eliminate being forced to pay (shunpike routes may not be known/possible/practical) exorbitant AET-related transponder fees that many rental car companies are charging. In non-AET situations, if one didn't want to use the rental car company-issued E-ZPass; one just simply paid the cash toll out of their own pocket and that was that.
Cash tolls are tremendously more expensive and dangerous than AET designs. Along with the toll booths and real estate, you have a lot of personnel, buildings and equipment, signage, money security and transportation, auditing, etc. And you can't just do one lane, because if people know that they can pay cash, then you'll have too high of a percentage of traffic wanting to pay cash for a single toll booth. You also have to consider shift changeovers, equipment maintenance and breakdowns, and a host of other issues far behind what you and I see rolling down the highway.
This is why nearly every new toll point is going AET. Just too expensive to continue with cash transactions.
It sucks when it comes to rental cars, not being familiar with the area, etc, but that's really an area that needs to be handled better by the transponder & rental companies. To be fair, rental car companies charge a LOT in excess fees. Obviously insurance is one pricey option that's not needed by many. But also it's not uncommon for a GPS unit's rental fee for a 3 or 4 day rental to be pricier than just buying a new unit! And in terms of rental vehicles compared to the overall volume of traffic, it's miniscule.
I see the automation concept, despite my job being a toll collector, but yes rental car companies do charge way too much for the middle man they employ. I do not mind paying a toll, except in DE and PA on their turnpikes as the mileage price is way too high, but when you have to pay a daily usage fee for using the toll road just once over a one week rental (7 days of tolls for only one day and one toll) that is absurd. That is why in Houston I avoided the toll parts of TX SH Beltway 8 as Dollar Rental Car was going to add $12.50 for all my days of using the car even though I was in Houston for one whole day when I arrived.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2020, 09:31:27 AMIt sucks when it comes to rental cars, not being familiar with the area, etc, but that's really an area that needs to be handled better by the transponder & rental companies. To be fair, rental car companies charge a LOT in excess fees. Obviously insurance is one pricey option that's not needed by many. But also it's not uncommon for a GPS unit's rental fee for a 3 or 4 day rental to be pricier than just buying a new unit! And in terms of rental vehicles compared to the overall volume of traffic, it's miniscule.
IIRC, most of those listed fees can be easily avoided/declined; frequent-renters already know such. Since most travelers now have/use smart phones; they'll just use the GPS or Google Maps on their phones rather than renting another unit.
Optional insurance that rental companies offer/charge: since the majority of transactions are done via a credit card, most credit card companies already offer some type of insurance for rental cars provided that their card is used for the transaction. In short, such can be easily & should be declined.
With AET, the rented E-ZPass transponder is the proverbial wild-card here. While some can say,
bring your own transponder with you and add the rented vehicle upon pick-up; there are some issues w/such.
1. Such is additional item to add/carry when travelling (especially by air).
2. In most instances, one does not know the license plate number of the vehicle (let alone the year/make/model) they're renting until after they pick it up; and, in some instances, a vehicle swap may occur before leaving the lot. Such happened to me one time when the car that was assigned to me had a just-expired out-of-state (VA in MA) license plate. It wasn't noticed until the attendant at the gate (it was a rental lot at an airport) saw it prior to opening the exit gate for me. I got a free upgrade to a larger car (Focus to an Impala) as a result of such. All that drama plus the fact that one's travel may be pressed for time could mean that contacting one's E-ZPass agency to add/swap a rental vehicle on their account can be easily forgotten/overlooked.
3. Related to #2 above: Some agencies may not
easily allow adding a temporary/rental vehicle onto one's existing transponder. Such would be dependent upon the agency one's transponder is from. See separate thread on that subject.
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 20, 2020, 11:00:13 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2020, 09:31:27 AMIt sucks when it comes to rental cars, not being familiar with the area, etc, but that's really an area that needs to be handled better by the transponder & rental companies. To be fair, rental car companies charge a LOT in excess fees. Obviously insurance is one pricey option that's not needed by many. But also it's not uncommon for a GPS unit's rental fee for a 3 or 4 day rental to be pricier than just buying a new unit! And in terms of rental vehicles compared to the overall volume of traffic, it's miniscule.
IIRC, most of those listed fees can be easily avoided/declined; frequent-renters already know such. Since most travelers now have/use smart phones; they'll just use the GPS or Google Maps on their phones rather than renting another unit.
Optional insurance that rental companies offer/charge: since the majority of transactions are done via a credit card, most credit card companies already offer some type of insurance for rental cars provided that their card is used for the transaction. In short, such can be easily & should be declined.
With AET, the rented E-ZPass transponder is the proverbial wild-card here. While some can say, bring your own transponder with you and add the rented vehicle upon pick-up; there are some issues w/such.
1. Such is additional item to add/carry when travelling (especially by air).
2. In most instances, one does not know the license plate number of the vehicle (let alone the year/make/model) they're renting until after they pick it up; and, in some instances, a vehicle swap may occur before leaving the lot. Such happened to me one time when the car that was assigned to me had a just-expired out-of-state (VA in MA) license plate. It wasn't noticed until the attendant at the gate (it was a rental lot at an airport) saw it prior to opening the exit gate for me. I got a free upgrade to a larger car (Focus to an Impala) as a result of such. All that drama plus the fact that one's travel may be pressed for time could mean that contacting one's E-ZPass agency to add/swap a rental vehicle on their account can be easily forgotten/overlooked.
3. Related to #2 above: Some agencies may not easily allow adding a temporary/rental vehicle onto one's existing transponder. Such would be dependent upon the agency one's transponder is from. See separate thread on that subject.
No need to add a rental license plate, and you shouldn't if you can't clearly define the time you'll have the rental. Just use the EZ Pass as you normally would by holding it on the windshield in the same manner you would normally secure it to the windshield. The tags are only checked if the system didn't pick up the toll transaction, and you can verify that it was charged by checking your account by the next day.
As far as GPS units go - people still use them - A lot - even though Waze and Google Maps are free to everyone with a smart phone (which is almost everyone).
None of the reasons presented are going to convince a toll agency to spend tens of millions to add cash booths.
A toll transponder is so tiny that it will fit in your checked luggage or carry-on. Also have driven rentals for years and have used my own Ohio and New York Thruway transponder with no problems. I don't get why it's such a big deal to a very few.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2020, 11:24:13 AM
No need to add a rental license plate, and you shouldn't if you can't clearly define the time you'll have the rental. Just use the EZ Pass as you normally would by holding it on the windshield in the same manner you would normally secure it to the windshield. The tags are only checked if the system didn't pick up the toll transaction, and you can verify that it was charged by checking your account by the next day.
As you mention, there's the risk of a blown read, and I imagine I'm not the only person who would rather not risk it.
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2020, 01:18:01 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2020, 11:24:13 AM
No need to add a rental license plate, and you shouldn't if you can't clearly define the time you'll have the rental. Just use the EZ Pass as you normally would by holding it on the windshield in the same manner you would normally secure it to the windshield. The tags are only checked if the system didn't pick up the toll transaction, and you can verify that it was charged by checking your account by the next day.
As you mention, there's the risk of a blown read, and I imagine I'm not the only person who would rather not risk it.
I wonder how often that happens?
You probably wouldn't know about it with your own car, because your transponder is assigned to your car via plate number. If the transponder read fails, then the photo plate reader takes a picture of your plate, and your account gets charged, and everything is fine and EZPass doesn't need to notify you about what happened. Maybe if they get a whole string of transponder read fails on your account, then they would notify you of a possible dead transponder battery.
Adding your rental plate number to your account temporarily has other possible problems, as has been pointed out.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2020, 11:24:13 AMNo need to add a rental license plate, and you shouldn't if you can't clearly define the time you'll have the rental. Just use the EZ Pass as you normally would by holding it on the windshield in the same manner you would normally secure it to the windshield. The tags are only checked if the system didn't pick up the toll transaction, and you can verify that it was charged by checking your account by the next day.
The above is subject to the policy & procedures of the individual agency that issued the E-ZPass. Not every agency treats the above-described transactions equally. See Transferring E-ZPass Between Cars thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26343.0). Additionally, any disputed unusual or fraudulent (another matter) readings
may only apply to tolls charged
within that agency's jurisdiction. I.e. it's more of a hassle/challenge to contest a questionable MassDOT toll charge on a PTC-issued E-ZPass account as an example than it is to contest a suspicious/odd PTC toll charge on a PTC account.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2020, 11:24:13 AMAs far as GPS units go - people still use them - A lot - even though Waze and Google Maps are free to everyone with a smart phone (which is almost everyone).
Then, they're just wasting their own money IMHO.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2020, 11:24:13 AMNone of the reasons presented are going to convince a toll agency to spend tens of millions to add cash booths.
Let's be clear here: My stating a particular/desired toll set-up preference is, by no means, saying that I am fully advocating adding such. I am more than well aware that the AET horses, so to speak, have already escaped and that closing the proverbial barn door will accomplish nothing. IMHO, the
what if scenarios should've been pondered more thoroughly
prior to its implementation; and I'm not just referring to the tolling agencies.
From PennDOT District 6:I-295 WB will be reduced to one lane through here most of next week. (https://www.penndot.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=6194)
also, for those who are interested in such things - the contractor has been posting aerial footage of the project area from drone flyovers roughly once a month for the past year.
www.scudderfallsbridge.com/progress/
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 22, 2020, 03:21:57 PM
From PennDOT District 6:I-295 WB will be reduced to one lane through here most of next week. (https://www.penndot.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=6194)
Drove on the NJ side of 295 this afternoon. Saw several VMS's warning of this activity, even on the NJ side, so at least they're doing a good job of warning drivers about it.
Semi-OT, but is this ramp permanently closed?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2608691,-74.8429306,3a,75y,22.17h,78.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se-OAfv-WZSX8vOzRn5Ak-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: yakra on July 28, 2021, 11:57:40 AM
Semi-OT, but is this ramp permanently closed?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2608691,-74.8429306,3a,75y,22.17h,78.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se-OAfv-WZSX8vOzRn5Ak-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This should go under here:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2146.0
(mod can/should move it)
But per this, no:
https://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/construction/#map
Considered posting there, looked arguably necroposty. :)
Was curious as to the status of this project and the northbound span just opened to traffic.
AUGUST 18, 2021 / ALERT
(https://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/alert/second-bridge-span-and-all-exit-entry-ramps-near-bridge-reopened-shortly-after-8-p-m-tuesday-aug-17/%3Cbr%20/%3ESecond%20Bridge%20Span,%20All%20Exit/Entry%20Ramps%20Near%20Bridge%20Now%20Open%5B/url)
QuoteProject Now in Third -- and Final -- Construction Stage
The Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project has entered its third final construction stage.
The second completed bridge span (downstream) opened to New Jersey-bound traffic only shortly after 8 p.m. Tuesday, Aug. 17. Exit and entrance ramps at the interchanges flanking the bridge also are once against fully operational.
The first completed span, which opened to traffic in July 2019, will now carry only Pennsylvania-bound traffic.
Through traffic on both bridge spans is now restricted to their respective two outside lanes. This travel pattern will allow for a new workzone in the center of the bridge into the fall.
The project remains on pace to reach substantial in mid-t0-late December.
Quote from: Alex on August 19, 2021, 07:46:44 AM
Was curious as to the status of this project and the northbound span just opened to traffic.
AUGUST 18, 2021 / ALERT
(https://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/alert/second-bridge-span-and-all-exit-entry-ramps-near-bridge-reopened-shortly-after-8-p-m-tuesday-aug-17/%3Cbr%20/%3ESecond%20Bridge%20Span,%20All%20Exit/Entry%20Ramps%20Near%20Bridge%20Now%20Open%5B/url)QuoteProject Now in Third -- and Final -- Construction Stage
The Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project has entered its third final construction stage.
The second completed bridge span (downstream) opened to New Jersey-bound traffic only shortly after 8 p.m. Tuesday, Aug. 17. Exit and entrance ramps at the interchanges flanking the bridge also are once against fully operational.
The first completed span, which opened to traffic in July 2019, will now carry only Pennsylvania-bound traffic.
Through traffic on both bridge spans is now restricted to their respective two outside lanes. This travel pattern will allow for a new workzone in the center of the bridge into the fall.
The project remains on pace to reach substantial in mid-t0-late December.
I like how their release forgot the word " completion" after "substantial" 😂
Quote from: famartin on August 19, 2021, 08:44:19 AM
Quote from: Alex on August 19, 2021, 07:46:44 AM
Was curious as to the status of this project and the northbound span just opened to traffic.
AUGUST 18, 2021 / ALERT
(https://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/alert/second-bridge-span-and-all-exit-entry-ramps-near-bridge-reopened-shortly-after-8-p-m-tuesday-aug-17/%3Cbr%20/%3ESecond%20Bridge%20Span,%20All%20Exit/Entry%20Ramps%20Near%20Bridge%20Now%20Open%5B/url)QuoteProject Now in Third -- and Final -- Construction Stage
The Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project has entered its third final construction stage.
The second completed bridge span (downstream) opened to New Jersey-bound traffic only shortly after 8 p.m. Tuesday, Aug. 17. Exit and entrance ramps at the interchanges flanking the bridge also are once against fully operational.
The first completed span, which opened to traffic in July 2019, will now carry only Pennsylvania-bound traffic.
Through traffic on both bridge spans is now restricted to their respective two outside lanes. This travel pattern will allow for a new workzone in the center of the bridge into the fall.
The project remains on pace to reach substantial in mid-t0-late December.
I like how their release forgot the word " completion" after "substantial" 😂
call it a punch-list item and submit a change order :-P
Quote from: Alex on August 19, 2021, 07:46:44 AM
Was curious as to the status of this project and the northbound span just opened to traffic.
AUGUST 18, 2021 / ALERT
(https://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/alert/second-bridge-span-and-all-exit-entry-ramps-near-bridge-reopened-shortly-after-8-p-m-tuesday-aug-17/%3Cbr%20/%3ESecond%20Bridge%20Span,%20All%20Exit/Entry%20Ramps%20Near%20Bridge%20Now%20Open%5B/url)QuoteProject Now in Third -- and Final -- Construction Stage
The Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project has entered its third final construction stage.
The second completed bridge span (downstream) opened to New Jersey-bound traffic only shortly after 8 p.m. Tuesday, Aug. 17. Exit and entrance ramps at the interchanges flanking the bridge also are once against fully operational.
The first completed span, which opened to traffic in July 2019, will now carry only Pennsylvania-bound traffic.
Through traffic on both bridge spans is now restricted to their respective two outside lanes. This travel pattern will allow for a new workzone in the center of the bridge into the fall.
The project remains on pace to reach substantial in mid-t0-late December.
Gonna have to get down there soon and get some new pictures.
Quote from: odditude on August 19, 2021, 08:44:32 PM
Quote from: famartin on August 19, 2021, 08:44:19 AM
Quote from: Alex on August 19, 2021, 07:46:44 AM
Was curious as to the status of this project and the northbound span just opened to traffic.
AUGUST 18, 2021 / ALERT
(https://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/alert/second-bridge-span-and-all-exit-entry-ramps-near-bridge-reopened-shortly-after-8-p-m-tuesday-aug-17/%3Cbr%20/%3ESecond%20Bridge%20Span,%20All%20Exit/Entry%20Ramps%20Near%20Bridge%20Now%20Open%5B/url)QuoteProject Now in Third -- and Final -- Construction Stage
The Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project has entered its third final construction stage.
The second completed bridge span (downstream) opened to New Jersey-bound traffic only shortly after 8 p.m. Tuesday, Aug. 17. Exit and entrance ramps at the interchanges flanking the bridge also are once against fully operational.
The first completed span, which opened to traffic in July 2019, will now carry only Pennsylvania-bound traffic.
Through traffic on both bridge spans is now restricted to their respective two outside lanes. This travel pattern will allow for a new workzone in the center of the bridge into the fall.
The project remains on pace to reach substantial in mid-t0-late December.
I like how their release forgot the word " completion" after "substantial" 😂
call it a punch-list item and submit a change order :-P
I thought the 95 bridge from NJ to PA at the 295/PATP interchange would not be done for a long long time.
You are saying now it is essentially done, with 3 lanes in each direction?
Quote from: bluecountry on August 28, 2021, 02:28:06 AM
Quote from: odditude on August 19, 2021, 08:44:32 PM
Quote from: famartin on August 19, 2021, 08:44:19 AM
Quote from: Alex on August 19, 2021, 07:46:44 AM
Was curious as to the status of this project and the northbound span just opened to traffic.
AUGUST 18, 2021 / ALERT
(https://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/alert/second-bridge-span-and-all-exit-entry-ramps-near-bridge-reopened-shortly-after-8-p-m-tuesday-aug-17/%3Cbr%20/%3ESecond%20Bridge%20Span,%20All%20Exit/Entry%20Ramps%20Near%20Bridge%20Now%20Open%5B/url)QuoteProject Now in Third -- and Final -- Construction Stage
The Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project has entered its third final construction stage.
The second completed bridge span (downstream) opened to New Jersey-bound traffic only shortly after 8 p.m. Tuesday, Aug. 17. Exit and entrance ramps at the interchanges flanking the bridge also are once against fully operational.
The first completed span, which opened to traffic in July 2019, will now carry only Pennsylvania-bound traffic.
Through traffic on both bridge spans is now restricted to their respective two outside lanes. This travel pattern will allow for a new workzone in the center of the bridge into the fall.
The project remains on pace to reach substantial in mid-t0-late December.
I like how their release forgot the word " completion" after "substantial" 😂
call it a punch-list item and submit a change order :-P
I thought the 95 bridge from NJ to PA at the 295/PATP interchange would not be done for a long long time.
You are saying now it is essentially done, with 3 lanes in each direction?
When this topic was started many years ago, it was I-95, but re-read the title: Scudders Falls. That's not the current 95 bridge. It is 295 now.
Quote from: bluecountry on August 28, 2021, 02:28:06 AM
I thought the 95 bridge from NJ to PA at the 295/PATP interchange would not be done for a long long time.
You are saying now it is essentially done, with 3 lanes in each direction?
Uh, what where?
If you're thinking of the bridge between the NJ and PA Turnpikes, this isn't it.
Yes, I am thinking of the I-95 bridge.
I guess I got confused, this is the 295 bridge in Trenton, formerly I-95.
Drove across both spans last week. Still two lanes each way while they finish work on the median portions of both spans. Also noticed the 29 exit northbound now has a notice about trucks more than 13 tons being banned. I don't think that was a thing before, so I'm wondering why it was added all of a sudden.
Quote from: famartin on September 06, 2021, 10:43:01 PM
Drove across both spans last week. Still two lanes each way while they finish work on the median portions of both spans. Also noticed the 29 exit northbound now has a notice about trucks more than 13 tons being banned. I don't think that was a thing before, so I'm wondering why it was added all of a sudden.
I haven't been across the new spans since the newest span open so I don't know how prominently these new signs are displayed, but the signage banning trucks over 13 Tons was used, per GSV going back to 2009:
95 Northbound (now 295 EB): https://goo.gl/maps/woyr4a1ziZinY42P6
95 Southbound (now 295 WB) in 2013 (because the 2009 GSV isn't readable): https://goo.gl/maps/Npnzbo5P1bHwB6k7A
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 07, 2021, 07:54:47 AM
Quote from: famartin on September 06, 2021, 10:43:01 PM
Drove across both spans last week. Still two lanes each way while they finish work on the median portions of both spans. Also noticed the 29 exit northbound now has a notice about trucks more than 13 tons being banned. I don't think that was a thing before, so I'm wondering why it was added all of a sudden.
I haven't been across the new spans since the newest span open so I don't know how prominently these new signs are displayed, but the signage banning trucks over 13 Tons was used, per GSV going back to 2009:
95 Northbound (now 295 EB): https://goo.gl/maps/woyr4a1ziZinY42P6
95 Southbound (now 295 WB) in 2013 (because the 2009 GSV isn't readable): https://goo.gl/maps/Npnzbo5P1bHwB6k7A
Totally never noticed that, or maybe just don't remember. Probably why they put it on the main sign.
Hope the white " TOLL" banner here is temporary.
https://goo.gl/maps/ywy8yunfMqmYKFoQA
I am glad though that NJ got it right with signing I-295 as WEST instead of NORTH to WEST.
Some pics I took today....
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/2021-09-29_10_27_33_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_07.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_27_33_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_07.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/2021-09-29_10_21_15_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_04.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_21_15_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_04.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/2021-09-29_10_16_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_01.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_16_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_01.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/2021-09-29_10_19_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_03.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_19_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_03.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/2021-09-29_10_19_47_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_02.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_19_47_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_02.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/2021-09-29_10_31_11_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_09.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_31_11_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_09.jpg)
Quote from: roadman65 on September 07, 2021, 08:58:38 AM
Hope the white " TOLL" banner here is temporary.
https://goo.gl/maps/ywy8yunfMqmYKFoQA
I am glad though that NJ got it right with signing I-295 as WEST instead of NORTH to WEST.
That may have to do with it being DRJTBC and not NJDOT jurisdiction.
Does someone at the DRJTBC want to call the Maryland Transportation Authority to tell them the right way to create signage that informs drivers of the toll by plate option?
Quote from: famartin on September 29, 2021, 06:45:57 PM
Some pics I took today....
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/2021-09-29_10_27_33_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_07.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_27_33_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_07.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/2021-09-29_10_21_15_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_04.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_21_15_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_04.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/2021-09-29_10_16_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_01.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_16_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_01.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/2021-09-29_10_19_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_03.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_19_56_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_03.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/2021-09-29_10_19_47_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_02.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_19_47_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_02.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/2021-09-29_10_31_11_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_09.jpg/800px-2021-09-29_10_31_11_will_rename_and_categorize_soon_09.jpg)
Are these all DRJTBC installs? I like the look of the Rt 29 signs all around. Nice proper black on white No Trucks Over 13 Tons banner, and an even more proper black on yellow "Last Exit Before Toll" banner too.
As I figured, Exit 76 for Route29 is the highest exit number for interstates in NJ. I-80 goes to Exit 68. I-78! Goes to Exit 58. I-95;is Exit 73. So I-295 has the highest interstate exit number now.
Quote from: storm2k on September 30, 2021, 12:05:05 AM
Are these all DRJTBC installs? I like the look of the Rt 29 signs all around. Nice proper black on white No Trucks Over 13 Tons banner, and an even more proper black on yellow "Last Exit Before Toll" banner too.
I believe so. Here's the old signs for comparison... the one thing I wish they had done was replace the "Welcome to New Jersey" and pull-through signs going northbound (well, southbound now).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/2017-10-06_15_49_16_View_north_along_Interstate_95_at_Exit_1_%28New_Jersey_State_Route_29%2C_Trenton%2C_Lambertville%29_in_Ewing_Township%2C_Mercer_County%2C_New_Jersey.jpg/800px-2017-10-06_15_49_16_View_north_along_Interstate_95_at_Exit_1_%28New_Jersey_State_Route_29%2C_Trenton%2C_Lambertville%29_in_Ewing_Township%2C_Mercer_County%2C_New_Jersey.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/2017-10-06_10_41_37_View_south_along_Interstate_95_at_Exit_1_%28New_Jersey_State_Route_29%2C_Trenton%2C_Lambertville%29_in_Ewing_Township%2C_Mercer_County%2C_New_Jersey.jpg/800px-2017-10-06_10_41_37_View_south_along_Interstate_95_at_Exit_1_%28New_Jersey_State_Route_29%2C_Trenton%2C_Lambertville%29_in_Ewing_Township%2C_Mercer_County%2C_New_Jersey.jpg)
The Welcome to NJ sign is an NJDOT thing, not DRJTBC, so if that was a commission install, I'm not surprised they didn't put a new one up. Here's to hoping NJDOT puts a new one up once it's back on their jurisdiction. I love the postcard format of the sign and it's very fitting for this state.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 30, 2021, 12:46:59 AM
As I figured, Exit 76 for Route29 is the highest exit number for interstates in NJ. I-80 goes to Exit 68. I-78! Goes to Exit 58. I-95;is Exit 73. So I-295 has the highest interstate exit number now.
Don't forget I-76, Exit 354 . . .
All kidding aside, there is actually an Exit 74 on I-95 SB as it leaves the GW Bridge. Coming off the Upper Level, it goes to the Palisades Parkway.
Does not change your conclusion . . .
Quote from: storm2k on September 30, 2021, 11:27:58 AM
The Welcome to NJ sign is an NJDOT thing, not DRJTBC, so if that was a commission install, I'm not surprised they didn't put a new one up. Here's to hoping NJDOT puts a new one up once it's back on their jurisdiction. I love the postcard format of the sign and it's very fitting for this state.
Yeah, I know. Its why you don't see one until Exit 2 on I-295 northbound (before then is DRBA jurisdiction).
I'm surprised to see such nice signs come from DRJTBC, but I'm not complaining :) Kudos to their sign engineer.
Quote from: Alps on September 30, 2021, 10:40:36 PM
I'm surprised to see such nice signs come from DRJTBC, but I'm not complaining :) Kudos to their sign engineer.
One goof I noticed... on the PA side, new signs directing traffic to PA 532 use NJ 532 shields instead.
Quote from: famartin on September 30, 2021, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: storm2k on September 30, 2021, 11:27:58 AM
The Welcome to NJ sign is an NJDOT thing, not DRJTBC, so if that was a commission install, I'm not surprised they didn't put a new one up. Here's to hoping NJDOT puts a new one up once it's back on their jurisdiction. I love the postcard format of the sign and it's very fitting for this state.
Yeah, I know. Its why you don't see one until Exit 2 on I-295 northbound (before then is DRBA jurisdiction).
Just to throw in a counterexample: I-78 has the NJDOT-spec welcome sign immediately after the I-78 Toll Bridge, yet (if I'm not mistaken) the DRJTBC jurisdiction extends all the way to exit 3?
In many cases NJDOT installs signs in DRJTBC jurisdiction. You'll see their mile markers and municipal boundary signs for example. Prior to the Scudder Falls Bridge reconstruction, one of the advance signs for NJ exits going north were provided by NJDOT even on the PA side of the bridge.
https://goo.gl/maps/xgVrpsLk5LquMmaF9
The Exit 1 sign is PennDOT and the Exit 2 sign is NJDOT.
https://www.drjtbc.org/2021/11/severe-traffic-warning-37-hour-long-single-lane-restriction-scheduled-to-begin-tonight-on-i-295-north-in-nj-and-scudder-falls-toll-bridge-pennsylvania-bound/
NOVEMBER 9, 2021 / NEWS RELEASE
SEVERE TRAFFIC WARNING: 37-Hour-Long Single-Lane Restriction Scheduled to Begin Tonight On I-295 North in NJ and Scudder Falls Toll Bridge Pennsylvania-Bound
Commuters Traveling from New Jersey to Pennsylvania Should Expect Severe Backups, Delays during Wednesday Evening Peak Hours
EWING, N.J. — The Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission is warning evening peak commuters to anticipate severe backups and delays approaching the Scudder Falls Toll Bridge on I-295 northbound from the New Jersey side for travel into Pennsylvania 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. TOMORROW, Wednesday, Nov. 10.
I-295 NB (PA-bound) will be reduced to a single lane (one travel lane instead of three lanes) for a roughly 37-hour-long uninterrupted "high-intensity construction cycle" (HICC) starting 7 p.m. TODAY and continuing until approximately 8 a.m. Thursday, Nov. 11.
The single-lane travel pattern will begin a short distance after the CR-579/Bear Tavern Road interchange (Exit 75) in Ewing and continue across the Scudder Falls Toll Bridge's upstream span into Pennsylvania, ending in the vicinity of the Dolington Road overpass in Lower Makefield, PA.
While the single-lane pattern may cause some delays and backups at any time, the most severe congestion is expected to occur during Wednesday evening's peak commuting times – 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. During these times, traffic queuing of a two miles or more is likely with corresponding travel delays of an hour or more.
Due to these possible conditions, the Commission is urging affected Pennsylvania-bound commuters on I-295 NB in Mercer County to postpone their travel or use the Trenton-Morrisville (Route 1) Toll Bridge as a travel alternative during Wednesday evening's peak driving period.
The rare around-the-clock single-lane travel pattern is needed so work crews can apply the final asphalt surface to the left and center lanes of I-295 northbound on the bridge's New Jersey side and I-295 westbound on the bride's Pennsylvania side. Diamond grinding of the upstream bridge's polyester-polymer concrete surface also will take place during the continuous closure period.
The work is among a series of intensified construction activities now taking place so the 4-1/2-year-long Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project can reach substantial completion in the middle of next month.
More information on the Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project is available at www.scudderfallsbridge.com.
Quote from: famartin on November 09, 2021, 09:07:09 PM
https://www.drjtbc.org/2021/11/severe-traffic-warning-37-hour-long-single-lane-restriction-scheduled-to-begin-tonight-on-i-295-north-in-nj-and-scudder-falls-toll-bridge-pennsylvania-bound/
NOVEMBER 9, 2021 / NEWS RELEASE
SEVERE TRAFFIC WARNING: 37-Hour-Long Single-Lane Restriction Scheduled to Begin Tonight On I-295 North in NJ and Scudder Falls Toll Bridge Pennsylvania-Bound
Commuters Traveling from New Jersey to Pennsylvania Should Expect Severe Backups, Delays during Wednesday Evening Peak Hours
EWING, N.J. — The Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission is warning evening peak commuters to anticipate severe backups and delays approaching the Scudder Falls Toll Bridge on I-295 northbound from the New Jersey side for travel into Pennsylvania 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. TOMORROW, Wednesday, Nov. 10.
I-295 NB (PA-bound) will be reduced to a single lane (one travel lane instead of three lanes) for a roughly 37-hour-long uninterrupted "high-intensity construction cycle" (HICC) starting 7 p.m. TODAY and continuing until approximately 8 a.m. Thursday, Nov. 11.
The single-lane travel pattern will begin a short distance after the CR-579/Bear Tavern Road interchange (Exit 75) in Ewing and continue across the Scudder Falls Toll Bridge's upstream span into Pennsylvania, ending in the vicinity of the Dolington Road overpass in Lower Makefield, PA.
While the single-lane pattern may cause some delays and backups at any time, the most severe congestion is expected to occur during Wednesday evening's peak commuting times – 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. During these times, traffic queuing of a two miles or more is likely with corresponding travel delays of an hour or more.
Due to these possible conditions, the Commission is urging affected Pennsylvania-bound commuters on I-295 NB in Mercer County to postpone their travel or use the Trenton-Morrisville (Route 1) Toll Bridge as a travel alternative during Wednesday evening's peak driving period.
The rare around-the-clock single-lane travel pattern is needed so work crews can apply the final asphalt surface to the left and center lanes of I-295 northbound on the bridge's New Jersey side and I-295 westbound on the bride's Pennsylvania side. Diamond grinding of the upstream bridge's polyester-polymer concrete surface also will take place during the continuous closure period.
The work is among a series of intensified construction activities now taking place so the 4-1/2-year-long Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project can reach substantial completion in the middle of next month.
More information on the Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement Project is available at www.scudderfallsbridge.com.
Wow...what starving journalist did they hire for their PR department?
Besides...2pm to 8pm the next day is 38 hours, not 37.
Why are they doing this midweek instead of the usual weekend HICC?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 09, 2021, 09:29:57 PM
Wow...what starving journalist did they hire for their PR department?
Besides...2pm to 8pm the next day is 38 hours, not 37.
It's probably Bob Barker ("Once we close a lane, it can't be reopened for another 37 hours. Now if the sign appears in the dark pavement strip between the front and back of the barrier truck, you win.")
Quote from: Mr. Matté on November 10, 2021, 08:16:06 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 09, 2021, 09:29:57 PM
Wow...what starving journalist did they hire for their PR department?
Besides...2pm to 8pm the next day is 38 hours, not 37.
It's probably Bob Barker ("Once we close a lane, it can't be reopened for another 37 hours. Now if the sign appears in the dark pavement strip between the front and back of the barrier truck, you win.")
That Safecracker game was a fairly tough game to win!
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2021, 12:22:07 AM
Why are they doing this midweek instead of the usual weekend HICC?
Maybe because it is warm this week and they want this completed desperately.
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2021, 12:22:07 AM
Why are they doing this midweek instead of the usual weekend HICC?
That is probably the main reason, though I wonder why they didn't wait until Veterans Day, when government offices are closed.
Quote from: MASTERNC on November 10, 2021, 01:22:27 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2021, 12:22:07 AM
Why are they doing this midweek instead of the usual weekend HICC?
That is probably the main reason, though I wonder why they didn't wait until Veterans Day, when government offices are closed.
Supposed to rain Friday, maybe they were trying to wrap up well ahead of it.
Went over the bridge early this morning. Mostly done now, including a new "south 295/Princeton" pull thru and welcome to nj sign.
Another interesting anomaly... heading into PA from NJ, the speed limit drop from 65 to 55 is now mid span, at the state line...
Quote from: famartin on January 18, 2022, 11:46:12 PM
Another interesting anomaly... heading into PA from NJ, the speed limit drop from 65 to 55 is now mid span, at the state line...
Nice. Come on PA....you can do it...even if it's just for a few miles...
I see we got this overhead assembly now it's completed.
https://goo.gl/maps/bDGZ8NSwxKP1v9Mv9
I actually think it's cool.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 06, 2022, 06:47:41 AM
I see we got this overhead assembly now it's completed.
https://goo.gl/maps/bDGZ8NSwxKP1v9Mv9
I actually think it's cool.
Look up three posts...
Am I the only one who is mildly annoyed that the DRJTBC misnamed the bridge slightly? (its ScudderS Falls, not Scudder Falls)
Quote from: famartin on May 02, 2023, 09:40:21 PM
Am I the only one who is mildly annoyed that the DRJTBC misnamed the bridge slightly? (its ScudderS Falls, not Scudder Falls)
per
wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scudder_Falls_Bridge), it was done intentionally to make pronunciation easier - and dropping that 's' definitely makes it roll off the tongue more smoothly.
given the local tendency to both drop consonants and substitute glottal stops for Ts, i'd say it fits - compare vs common casual pronunciations for Bordentown (BOR'entown), Burlington (BURL'en'on), Mt Holly (mou'HOLly or maHOLly), Mt Laurel (mou'LAUrel), Trenton (TREN'on)...
With the exception of "Tren-in," I have never heard those pronunciations used for those places.
Sorry for raining in your parade but now then I-95 use NJ Tpk and part of PA Tpk with the new interchange near Bensalem, maybe we should rename it the I-295 (or historic I-95) Delaware River Schudder falls bridge replacement? ;)
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 04, 2023, 05:57:17 PM
Sorry for raining in your parade but now then I-95 use NJ Tpk and part of PA Tpk with the new interchange near Bensalem, maybe we should rename it the I-295 (or historic I-95) Delaware River Schudder falls bridge replacement? ;)
Where's Alps when you need him...
Quote from: Mr. Matté on May 04, 2023, 07:09:07 AM
With the exception of "Tren-in," I have never heard those pronunciations used for those places.
it's probably more common closer to Philly - and outside a formal/work environment.
Quote from: famartin on May 04, 2023, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 04, 2023, 05:57:17 PM
Sorry for raining in your parade but now then I-95 use NJ Tpk and part of PA Tpk with the new interchange near Bensalem, maybe we should rename it the I-295 (or historic I-95) Delaware River Schudder falls bridge replacement? ;)
Where's Alps when you need him...
i schuddered
Quote from: Mr. Matté on May 04, 2023, 07:09:07 AM
With the exception of "Tren-in," I have never heard those pronunciations used for those places.
agreed
Quote from: Alps on May 07, 2023, 09:22:24 PM
Quote from: famartin on May 04, 2023, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 04, 2023, 05:57:17 PM
Sorry for raining in your parade but now then I-95 use NJ Tpk and part of PA Tpk with the new interchange near Bensalem, maybe we should rename it the I-295 (or historic I-95) Delaware River Schudder falls bridge replacement? ;)
Where's Alps when you need him...
i schuddered
😂