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Regional Boards => Central States => Topic started by: Ned Weasel on February 15, 2020, 11:29:16 PM

Title: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Ned Weasel on February 15, 2020, 11:29:16 PM
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/officials-explore-tolls-to-help-fund-expansion-of-69-highway-in-overland-park

This seems like a more sensible way to do freeway widening.  But I still wish they would talk about putting a ramp meter on the northbound ramp from 119th Street, fixing the southbound left entrance from Blue Valley Parkway and the poorly signed lane drop at 135th Street, and finding a way to address the northbound weaving issues at the remaining inner loops of the cloverleaf at I-435.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Baloo Uriza on February 16, 2020, 02:35:10 AM
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/officials-explore-tolls-to-help-fund-expansion-of-69-highway-in-overland-park

This seems like a more sensible way to do freeway widening.  But I still wish they would talk about putting a ramp meter on the northbound ramp from 119th Street, fixing the southbound left entrance from Blue Valley Parkway and the poorly signed lane drop at 135th Street, and finding a way to address the northbound weaving issues at the remaining inner loops of the cloverleaf at I-435.

Lexus lanes... doesn't do anything to relieve traffic, doesn't really do much for funding, but god does it line whatever private company they're outsourcing the public commons to.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Scott5114 on February 16, 2020, 05:10:08 AM
I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Baloo Uriza on February 16, 2020, 12:44:17 PM
I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: ozarkman417 on February 16, 2020, 01:25:28 PM
I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Baloo Uriza on February 16, 2020, 01:33:03 PM
I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.

How do you figure?  Just puts pressure on people to carpool.  There's places where freeways are two on a side and the left lane got turned HOV only.  Building for the change you want to see works.  Want less traffic?  Give people a reason to team up.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: ozarkman417 on February 16, 2020, 05:12:30 PM
I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.

How do you figure?  Just puts pressure on people to carpool.  There's places where freeways are two on a side and the left lane got turned HOV only.  Building for the change you want to see works.  Want less traffic?  Give people a reason to team up.
This takes the ability to pass slower vehicles away from single drivers, which could hold up traffic from time to time. You could say that about super-2s, but in the section of the the planned widening the AADT jumps from 35k near 151st all the way up to 82.5k near I-435, so it can't afford to have that 50/50 split 24/7 (it's not exactly KC's busiest freeway, either). If widening was absolutely out of reach, A 50/50 split could happen, but it would have to be exclusively during the morning and evening commute times, when people would actually be carpooling. During all other times, the would-be HOV lane would be open to everyone.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Scott5114 on February 17, 2020, 03:49:06 AM
People in Johnson County carpooling? Yeah, right. Don't you know they're important people with places to be?
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: rte66man on February 17, 2020, 06:04:53 AM
I mean, if you're going to build Lexus lanes, it makes sense to build them in Johnson County. Hell of a lot of Lexuses in Overland Park.

Make 'em HOV lanes and you might actually see an impact on traffic.  Heck, don't even need to widen, then, just reuse an existing lane.
The section they are wanting to widen is currently only four lanes, two in each direction. One HOV lane and one normal lane would just make things worse.

How do you figure?  Just puts pressure on people to carpool.  There's places where freeways are two on a side and the left lane got turned HOV only.  Building for the change you want to see works.  Want less traffic?  Give people a reason to team up.

A large percentage of people do not work at jobs that have a fixed schedule (i.e. 8 to 5). They don't really have another choice but to drive themselves.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2020, 09:17:57 AM
I would argue that HOV lanes with too many access points can cause more traffic congestion given the constant merging of left to right and vice versa of car pools. It surely slows down traffic on the mainlines. I’ve often thought traffic would flow better in CA if all carpools were removed and freeways restriped in some cases possibly being able to add two new GP lanes in each direction.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Baloo Uriza on February 17, 2020, 09:48:53 AM
I would argue that HOV lanes with too many access points can cause more traffic congestion given the constant merging of left to right and vice versa of car pools. It surely slows down traffic on the mainlines. I’ve often thought traffic would flow better in CA if all carpools were removed and freeways restriped in some cases possibly being able to add two new GP lanes in each direction.

Maybe temporarily, but then people stop carpooling and you're back to square one, but with more cars.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2020, 10:06:50 AM
I would argue that HOV lanes with too many access points can cause more traffic congestion given the constant merging of left to right and vice versa of car pools. It surely slows down traffic on the mainlines. I’ve often thought traffic would flow better in CA if all carpools were removed and freeways restriped in some cases possibly being able to add two new GP lanes in each direction.

Maybe temporarily, but then people stop carpooling and you're back to square one, but with more cars.
Perhaps but if we had better mass transit then this might not be as big of an issue. Some would be carpoolers would use transit instead if it was worth a damn.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on February 17, 2020, 10:13:47 AM
HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

If the roadway is only currently 4 lanes, widen it to 2+1 each way to create a total of 6 lanes. In the future, plan to add a third general purpose lane each way to have an ultimate section of 3+1 each way.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Baloo Uriza on February 17, 2020, 10:18:39 AM
HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on February 17, 2020, 10:24:53 AM
HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
On the contrary, Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads have had success with HOV to HO/T conversion during peak hours. More people use the HO/T lanes from when it previously HOV restricted, and congestion has eased -some- in the general purpose lanes. I suppose it depends on the region. I’m not too familiar with the commuting trends of Dallas-Fort Worth, so I cannot say much.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Baloo Uriza on February 17, 2020, 10:26:19 AM
HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
On the contrary, Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads have had success with HOV to HO/T conversion. I suppose it depends on the region. I’m not too familiar with the commuting trends of Dallas-Fort Worth, so I cannot say much.

I strongly suspect "money talks" less and "bullshit walks" more the further away you get from DC.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on February 17, 2020, 10:37:05 AM
HOV or Toll lanes?

Just make it a HO/T lane. Free for HOV, single vehicles pay.

Not nearly as effective at reducing traffic as HOV lanes, since now you're not just rewarding altruism, you're also rewarding the most selfish behavior.  You'll just get fewer people carpooling.  Need an example?  Try the before and after on 635 in Dallas when it went from having HOV lanes to having HOT lanes.  Nobody carpools, and now nobody gets to move.
On the contrary, Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads have had success with HOV to HO/T conversion. I suppose it depends on the region. I’m not too familiar with the commuting trends of Dallas-Fort Worth, so I cannot say much.

I strongly suspect "money talks" less and "bullshit walks" more the further away you get from DC.
Hampton Roads is certainly not like DC when it comes to money and affordability. According to numbers from VDOT, once they converted the HOV lanes to HO/T lanes heading towards Naval Station Norfolk, IIRC around 90% of the usage was SOV not HOV. Congestion was decreased a decent amount and average speeds were increased on the general purpose lanes. The HOV lanes had been previously underutilized, now they are quite full during peak hours. The tolls are also kept at a low, reasonable rate, rarely spiking past $2 or $3 for the 7 mile stretch, compared to Northern Virginia where $30+ is common for a 30 mile stretch of I-95, and similar along the I-395 and I-495 stretches.

Northern Virginia also has a decent HOV ridership with carpools and slug lines, now extending all the way down to Fredericksburg.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 19, 2020, 06:36:26 PM
If constructed, would these be the first stretch of toll lanes built in the Kansas City Metropolitan Area? I suspect if they are built, more toll lane proposals would likely come to the area.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: kphoger on February 20, 2020, 01:53:35 PM
Perhaps but if we had better mass transit then this might not be as big of an issue. Some would be carpoolers would use transit instead if it was worth a damn.

LA public transit is light years ahead of KC public transit.

But, also, most Johnson County residents wouldn't take the bus, no matter how good of a system it was.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Perhaps but if we had better mass transit then this might not be as big of an issue. Some would be carpoolers would use transit instead if it was worth a damn.

LA public transit is light years ahead of KC public transit.

But, also, most Johnson County residents wouldn't take the bus, no matter how good of a system it was.
I also doubt many of them would take any form of mass transit other than perhaps HSR like what is proposed between DFW and Houston.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: kphoger on February 21, 2020, 01:21:03 PM
I think there are a lot of people who are quite a bit more willing to take any train than take any bus.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: route56 on February 22, 2020, 09:52:01 PM
AFAICT, what's on the table is *toll only* lanes on US 69 from 151st Street north to I-435. There does not appear to be any discount for HOVs, nor is there any indication that said toll lanes would be operated by any organization other than KDOT or KTA.

AIUI, toll lanes would have to have the support of the local governments involved, and I'd suspect if significant opposition to toll lanes of US 69 develops, the toll lane proposal will get shot down. Toll lanes were floated for the western leg of the South Lawrence Trafficway, but it became quickly clear that there was opposition to it.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 22, 2021, 10:40:08 AM
It looks like KDOT is supporting the toll lanes alternative. What a fucking joke that state can’t even widen a freeway to six free lanes. If they want the toll lanes then it should be two each way with a C/D system. Instead they have the “traditional widening” of 3 GP lanes each way branded with the C/D system which for some reason isn’t planned for the toll lane alternative. They specifically state “the toll lane proposal takes less room than the traditional widening.”

It makes me angry when a DOT manipulates the public into supporting an alternative they want by adding things into other alternatives they know won’t be popular. I see this far too often. I guess the residents of OP won’t complain when they can use their new Lexus Lanes.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/toll-lanes-along-69-highway-could-soon-be-a-reality
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 22, 2021, 10:57:09 AM
It looks like KDOT is supporting the toll lanes alternative. What a fucking joke that state can’t even widen a freeway to six free lanes.

Not to let this get too far into the political territory, but Brownback tax cuts really screwed the budget for everything in my former state.  There's no money for anything still.

Chris
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 22, 2021, 10:58:52 AM
It looks like KDOT is supporting the toll lanes alternative. What a fucking joke that state can’t even widen a freeway to six free lanes.

Not to let this get too far into the political territory, but Brownback tax cuts really screwed the budget for everything in my former state.  There's no money for anything still.

Chris
What I just don’t understand is why the larger project with the C/D lanes isn’t the one to include tolls. If anything I think it would be the opposite.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on April 22, 2021, 11:34:28 AM
Honestly, the alternative with 6 general purpose lanes and the C/D system seems to provide the highest capacity and would the best for the long term.

But you know... toll lanes  :D
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: mvak36 on April 22, 2021, 03:32:58 PM
I didn't attend the public meeting but I have seen the Virtual Open house on their site. As I understand it, I think the city of Overland Park still has to approve the toll lanes. I am not sure what the reaction was to the toll lane option was at the public meeting, so it will be interesting to see what Overland Park does. I doubt that they would go with them if everyone is against it.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about what they choose to do eventually, but it does seem fishy that they didn't include the C/D roads in the toll lane option like Plutonic Panda mentioned. Seems like it would be a good idea to have C/D lanes regardless of what they choose to do.

I did like that both the toll lane and the Add general lanes option will add a flyover from US69 NB to I-435 WB. That is long overdue.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 22, 2021, 08:35:05 PM
If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 22, 2021, 09:39:08 PM
If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.
No it won’t.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: mvak36 on April 23, 2021, 01:04:07 AM
If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.

After watching the video of their public meeting, that makes sense. I thought they would still need C/D lanes from 135th St up to 435 regardless of what option they chose, but I can see why they wouldn't need it for the toll lane option.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 23, 2021, 06:54:06 AM
After watching the video of their public meeting, that makes sense. I thought they would still need C/D lanes from 135th St up to 435 regardless of what option they chose, but I can see why they wouldn't need it for the toll lane option.

There's so little space on the east side of the 69 between 119th and the 435, that I can't imagine how they could build an extra roadway without massive demolitions. Has there ever been a diagram showing it? I mean a plan, not a section; I've seen the section already, but I want to see it in plan view. That reminds me, I also wonder how they're going to make space for the approach to the NB-to-WB flyover.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 23, 2021, 07:10:23 AM
If you widen it to six lanes without any toll, it's gonna get worse traffic than with a toll, so I would imagine that's a reason the non-toll option includes C/D lanes and the toll option doesn't.
No it won’t.

Thank God you're here to be the world's formost expert and correct all us plebes without a shred of supporiting argument. We'd be truly lost without you, for you are our True Savior.
There’s nothing to suggest traffic will be higher without the toll lanes. The traffic will come from somewhere. If there is a study that can show traffic being higher pulling from localized roads than how is that an argument against building the free lanes alternative?
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 23, 2021, 07:15:26 AM
There’s nothing to suggest traffic will be higher without the toll lanes. The traffic will come from somewhere. If there is a study that can show traffic being higher pulling from localized roads than how is that an argument against building the free lanes alternative?

It's pretty simple. Without an incentive to get people to adjust their travel choices, they/we will use US 69 in the most selfish and least efficient way possible. There will be so much latent demand that building new lanes without any means of friction is just opening the floodgates.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 23, 2021, 08:35:40 AM
There’s nothing to suggest traffic will be higher without the toll lanes. The traffic will come from somewhere. If there is a study that can show traffic being higher pulling from localized roads than how is that an argument against building the free lanes alternative?

It's pretty simple. Without an incentive to get people to adjust their travel choices, they/we will use US 69 in the most selfish and least efficient way possible. There will be so much latent demand that building new lanes without any means of friction is just opening the floodgates.
What incentive is being offered to get people to adjust their travel choices? How does one not use a roadway selfishly or efficiently? It sounds like you’re trying to butter up the fact that the tolls lanes are intended to “alter” driver behavior by pricing people out of them.

I don’t think much latent demand will be an issue either here. It seems 6 lanes plus a new C/D system will be adequate to handle traffic counts for the next decade+.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 23, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
What incentive is being offered to get people to adjust their travel choices? How does one not use a roadway selfishly or efficiently? It sounds like you’re trying to butter up the fact that the tolls lanes are intended to “alter” driver behavior by pricing people out of them.

That's exactly the point.  It's a financial incentive.  If driving on the already-congested freeway during rush hour isn't worth the price of paying for the toll lane or sitting in traffic, then adjust your travel to another time, another route, or another mode of travel, or stay home.  That's how you attain better efficiency in the system, even if it's not 100% perfect efficiency.

Quote
I don’t think much latent demand will be an issue either here. It seems 6 lanes plus a new C/D system will be adequate to handle traffic counts for the next decade+.

Okay, so then what?  Add another two to four lanes that will be adequate to handle traffic for the following decade+?  Okay, so then what?  Keep doing the same thing ad infinitum?  That's hardly characteristic of an efficient system.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on April 23, 2021, 11:40:20 AM
I’ve heard this “induced demand” argument umpteenth times and it’s funny honestly. Back here in Virginia, they widened two high bottlenecked sections of I-64 and I-264 in the 1990s from 4 (and 6) to 8 lanes. Both roadways carry well over 100,000 AADT.

Ever since they’ve been widened, here we are, 30 years later, and they still perform at free-flow during rush hour.

The only chokepoints that exist is when they reach system interchanges that reduce lanes and involve substandard, weaving movements. Everywhere else though, no congestion.

What happened to this “induced demand”? Why aren’t they bottlenecked moving 20 mph at rush hour across all the new lanes?
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: kphoger on April 23, 2021, 01:17:50 PM
1.  Could it be that the induced demand was real, but it was less than the additional capacity gained?

2.  Factors in Virginia 30 years ago are not the same as the factors in Kansas City today.  They might be similar, they might be dissimilar.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Scott5114 on April 23, 2021, 02:54:13 PM
It's pretty simple. Without an incentive to get people to adjust their travel choices, they/we will use US 69 in the most selfish and least efficient way possible.

It's Johnson County, I'm pretty sure they're gonna be selfish and inefficient no matter what you do...May as well put in some toll lanes so KDOT can have some of the money the rich people don't need.

Really, though, if US-69 is expanded, any extra traffic would be coming from people who are using Quivira, Antioch, or Metcalf in lieu of 69 because it's too congested.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on April 23, 2021, 03:04:13 PM
What is the AADT on that segment of US-69?

1.  Could it be that the induced demand was real, but it was less than the additional capacity gained?
Perhaps, but it's a counter-example to the idea that induced demand always happens to the point widening shouldn't happen, as used by some RE/T groups or heavy proponents of toll lanes.

How about all rural interstates that have been expanded to 6 lanes? I recall driving on I-95 in Georgia during a peak weekend recently, traffic was heavy but moving 75 - 80 mph through without any delays. As soon as you entered South Carolina, traffic is choked down to 45 - 60 mph sustained, then many areas of down to near complete stops, then moving again, and vice versa.

No issues with 6 lanes Georgia, major issues with 4 lane South Carolina.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: kphoger on April 23, 2021, 03:27:11 PM
It's Johnson County, I'm pretty sure they're gonna be selfish and inefficient no matter what you do...May as well put in some toll lanes so KDOT can have some of the money the rich people don't need.

Stereotype much?

My parents both grew up in Johnson County, and it's not all like that.  Here's the house (https://goo.gl/maps/93v13KcQ1pUXxid78) my mom grew up in, for example.  And here's the house (https://goo.gl/maps/R6he2Js7im6rDnzNA) where my dad grew up, as part of a family of seven with one bathroom.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: kphoger on April 23, 2021, 03:33:21 PM
What is the AADT on that segment of US-69?

2016 figures:

93 600 = north of 103rd
83 100 = between 103rd & I-435
82 500 = between I-435 & College Blvd
75 400 = between College Blvd & 119th
59 900 = between 119th & Blue Valley Pkwy
78 200 = between Blue Valley Pkwy & Santa Fe
?? ??? = between Santa Fe & 151st
34 700 = south of 151st
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Scott5114 on April 23, 2021, 05:35:41 PM
It's Johnson County, I'm pretty sure they're gonna be selfish and inefficient no matter what you do...May as well put in some toll lanes so KDOT can have some of the money the rich people don't need.

Stereotype much?

I have family in both Wyandotte and Johnson counties, so I'm legally obliged to make fun of both of them. :P
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: mvak36 on April 28, 2021, 12:03:15 AM
Looks like Congresswoman Davids has submitted an earmark request for a part of the US69 project:https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article250974644.html

Quote
Davids’ $15 million earmark request for KDOT covers a portion of the project to improve the interchange at 167th st.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: route56 on May 03, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
What is the AADT on that segment of US-69?

20162019 figures:

93 600 99 500 = north of 103rd
83 100 84 600 = between 103rd & I-435
82 500 84 600 = between I-435 & College Blvd
75 400 88 500 = between College Blvd & 119th
59 900 66 600 = between 119th & Blue Valley Pkwy
78 200 88 400 = between Blue Valley Pkwy & Santa Fe 135th
?? ??? 58 210 = between Santa Fe 135th & 151st
34 700 41 300 = south of 151st

Fixed and updated numbers loaded onto my US 69 page.

https://www.route56.com/kansas-highways/us-69/#aadt
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on May 03, 2021, 11:54:40 AM
I feel like with 6 general purpose lanes and 2 C/D lanes in each direction, that stretch of highway would seem to operate relatively smoothly in the long term, more so than simply shoving a toll lane that may or may not get high utilization in.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 15, 2021, 12:26:46 PM
Not sure if this will affect the plan or not but thankfully the toll lane proposal is starting to face some pushback.

https://www.kcur.org/news/2021-06-15/express-lanes-could-ease-traffic-jams-on-highway-69-but-proposed-tolls-raise-concerns-about-equity
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 16, 2021, 08:09:07 PM
Let me guess: The opponents of the toll lanes are proponents of anti-toll "Lexus Lanes" argument. Areas that haven't had a history of toll lanes in their areas are more likely to say toll lanes are "Lexus Lanes." The truth is, although it may seem like higher-income people are more likely to use toll lanes, research has indicated that drivers of all incomes use the toll lanes. Here is an article about the "equity" of Express Toll Lanes: https://reason.org/commentary/are-express-toll-lanes-equitable/.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Rothman on June 16, 2021, 11:28:24 PM
Let me guess: The opponents of the toll lanes are proponents of anti-toll "Lexus Lanes" argument. Areas that haven't had a history of toll lanes in their areas are more likely to say toll lanes are "Lexus Lanes." The truth is, although it may seem like higher-income people are more likely to use toll lanes, research has indicated that drivers of all incomes use the toll lanes. Here is an article about the "equity" of Express Toll Lanes: https://reason.org/commentary/are-express-toll-lanes-equitable/.
Pfft.  Reason Foundation misrepresented the findings of the actual study.

https://depts.washington.edu/trac/research-news/freeway-and-arterial-management/i-405-express-toll-lanes-analysis-usage-benefits-and-equity/
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Ned Weasel on June 17, 2021, 07:27:43 AM
I have such a hard time buying any argument against toll lanes.

Let's say you go to a fast food restaurant and want a hamburger.  The hamburger costs $2.50, just for the sake of argument.  The clerk asks you if you want fries with that.  Fries cost $0.75, again, just for the sake of argument.  Maybe the fries are worth the extra 75 cents to you, maybe they aren't.  The US 69 proposal is like the hamburger and fries.  If you use US 69, you're already committed to the hamburger.  You've invested the money into a car and fuel, the $2.50 example.  The existence of the toll lanes give you the option of adding fries to your order, for a bit of an extra cost.  Either it's worth it to you, or it's not.  What about the normal lanes on US 69 (the hamburger) getting more congested?  Well, sometimes fast food restaurants have long lines, too, right?

Here's another example.  Let's say you order a package.  I don't care what it is.  But normal shipping costs $5.00, and it gets to you between one and two weeks from the time you order it, or maybe longer if it's a busy season like the holidays.  For an additional two bucks, you can get express shipping that guarantees you'll get it within five business days.  The toll lanes are like the express shipping.  Either it's worth it to you, or it's not.

Now, to the other side of the coin, let's suppose we add lanes without any additional cost to the end user.  That's like selling the burger and fries for the original $2.50 price of the burger.  That's like selling the express shipping for the original $5.00 price of standard shipping.  Maybe it works as a short-time promotion.  But is it really a sustainable business model?
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 17, 2021, 02:58:00 PM
^^^^ your analogy really doesn’t add up here. This isn’t a private venture it’s a public works project to facilitate the greater good. The only comparison I’d make between a fast food restaurant is adding a special like that you pay to extra to stand in just so you can order the food you already were going to order anyways. The new pay to use like prices the poor people out so you get your food faster than everyone else.

If they want to add toll lanes fine but add a GP lane as well.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on June 17, 2021, 11:00:13 PM
I have such a hard time buying any argument against toll lanes.
Using tax dollars to construct new lanes to then charge drivers an additional fee to drive in them?

  But is it really a sustainable business model?
Funny, they’ve added numerous of GP lanes back in the Hampton Roads area where I’m at over the last 30-40 years, and those areas still have virtually no congestion during peak hours, but right when it merges to 2 lanes each way (with LESS traffic volumes than the expanded 8 lane areas), bottleneck and bumper to bumper traffic.

But sure… “induced demand”  :bigass:
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: skluth on June 18, 2021, 12:36:42 PM
I have such a hard time buying any argument against toll lanes.
Using tax dollars to construct new lanes to then charge drivers an additional fee to drive in them?

  But is it really a sustainable business model?
Funny, they’ve added numerous of GP lanes back in the Hampton Roads area where I’m at over the last 30-40 years, and those areas still have virtually no congestion during peak hours, but right when it merges to 2 lanes each way (with LESS traffic volumes than the expanded 8 lane areas), bottleneck and bumper to bumper traffic.

But sure… “induced demand”  :bigass:

Huh? Most of the Tidewater backups are at the water crossings (HRBT, Hi-Rise Bridge), but I remember daily backups at I-64/264 when I lived in the area. Local authorities went back to tolling both the Downtown and Midtown Tunnels since I left (to pay for the much needed second Midtown tube), so the only way to fix one of the local bottlenecks was to toll it. Another local bottleneck that is now tolled after expansion is the Elizabeth River US 17 bridge, and Chesapeake built the tolled Chesapeake Expressway 20 years ago to get traffic out of Great Bridge. The cancelled Southeastern Parkway was also going to be a toll road. It seems like Tidewater is using toll roads to fix bottlenecks even if you don't personally use them.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: sprjus4 on June 18, 2021, 03:13:12 PM
^ I’m referring to segments of I-64 that have been expanded to 8 lanes - I-464 to I-264, north of I-664 on the Peninsula, also I-264 east of Independence Blvd… US-58 between Suffolk and Bowers Hill was also constructed as a rural 6 lane divided highway in the 70s… plus 6 lanes of I-464 for most of its length.

None of these segments built or widened with 6 or more lanes have recurring congestion even at peak hours, and carrying high volumes of traffic.

I never mentioned the crossings, which are bottlenecks now proposed to be addressed with HO/T lanes. We shall see how they hold up in the next decade once built, notably the HRBT and HRB.

Chesapeake built the Dominion Blvd project as a toll road because there was simply no funding. The city and area residents heavily opposed the use of tolling initially - it’s not popular and they tried holding out for years to find the funding… they reluctantly finally agreed to it because it was the only way to get it built. The same for the Expressway, which the toll portion does not bypass Great Bridge, it bypasses the southern portion of rural 2 lane Battlefield. The Great Bridge portion was built by VDOT in 1980 toll free.

Despite its continued use and growth, tolling continues to seem to be heavily opposed to locally, especially as the now proposed billions of dollars worth of HO/T lane expansions in the area heavily rely on tax dollars.

Portions of I-64 west of I-464 and all of I-664 could be expanded to 8 general purpose lanes and likely suffice for decades to come.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Scott5114 on June 18, 2021, 06:14:09 PM
I have such a hard time buying any argument against toll lanes.
Using tax dollars to construct new lanes to then charge drivers an additional fee to drive in them?

Eh, if this was really a huge argument against the project it could easily be dispelled by just paying for it with KTA funds.

And, as I've alluded to before, I don't think people are going to be particularly up in arms about paying a few bucks to use a toll lane in this area. The 2010 census median household income for Overland Park is $71,513, which is frankly kind of absurd for a Plains state (for Kansas as a whole it's $56,422).

  But is it really a sustainable business model?
Funny, they’ve added numerous of GP lanes back in the Hampton Roads area where I’m at over the last 30-40 years, and those areas still have virtually no congestion during peak hours, but right when it merges to 2 lanes each way (with LESS traffic volumes than the expanded 8 lane areas), bottleneck and bumper to bumper traffic.

But sure… “induced demand”  :bigass:

Any traffic increase on US-69 is going to be the result of traffic that was avoiding 69 and using Metcalf, Quivira, etc. instead shifting back to the freeway where it belongs. So while you'll see an increase of traffic on 69, you'll see less on surface streets.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: mvak36 on June 22, 2021, 12:40:49 AM
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/overland-park-city-council-approves-us-69-toll-lane

Quote
OVERLAND PARK, Kan. — An express toll lane will be added to U.S. 69 Highway in Overland Park.

The Overland Park City Council voted 10-2 to approve the expansion for the roadway, which the Kansas Department of Transportation estimates is used by roughly 80,000 drivers daily between West 103rd and West 197th streets, with the toll-lane included.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: mvak36 on June 25, 2021, 10:50:49 PM
https://www.69express.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/2021.06.25_US69_NewsRelease_KTA_SFC_Approvals_FINAL.pdf

Quote
U.S. 69 Express toll lanes receive approvals from Kansas Turnpike Authority, State Finance Council

KDOT continues public engagement, project environment assessment

TOPEKA–Following the June 21 approval by the Overland Park City Council to add express toll lanes to U.S. 69 between 151st and 103rd streets, the project received additional required approvals this week from the Kansas Turnpike Authority and the State Finance Council.

The KTA board voted 5-0 to approve and the State Finance Council voted 8-0 in favor of the KDOT-Overland joint proposal for express toll lanes on U.S. 69.

“The Overland Park City Council, Kansas Turnpike Authority and State Finance Council decisions set direction for how KDOT will proceed with the next phases of the U.S. 69 Expansion and Modernization project,” said KDOT Deputy Secretary Lindsey Douglas.

The environmental assessment has been underway since the project began in October 2020, and KDOT expects it to be complete in late 2021. A noise study also will be conducted to determine whether noise levels specific to the express toll lanes configuration meet or exceed federal and state guidelines.

KDOT’s public engagement efforts will continue throughout the life of the project. Over the next year, Overland Park residents can participate in several public meetings – one when the environmental analysis is complete in October, one in February 2022 about right-of-way acquisitions and one prior to the start of construction. Groups also may request project presentations through the U.S. 69 Expansion project website at Feedback – 69 Express (https://www.69express.org/feedback/).

In addition to a new, third tolled lane in each direction, the initial project phase will include a completely rebuilt U.S. 69 roadway between 151st and 103rd streets, as well as reconfigured interchanges at Blue Valley Parkway and at I-435.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: mvak36 on July 08, 2021, 10:48:00 AM
https://davids.house.gov/media/in-the-news/us-highway-69-project-overland-park-would-get-15m-federal-funds-bill-passed-house

Quote
Federal money from a $715 billion infrastructure bill approved by the U.S. House Thursday could make the project to expand U.S. Highway 69 in Overland Park richer, if the measure survives an eventual Senate conference.

The prospective $15 million injection —plus a state match — is targeted specifically at the 167th Street interchange.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: route56 on July 09, 2021, 12:00:14 AM
The US 69 widening in Overland Park is one of the improvement projects that will be built as part of the IKE program (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26273.msg2634517#msg2634517).

https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/files/Construction-Announcements-2021/US69_Johnson_July2021.pdf

Plans are scheduled to be let next year... 0.85:1 that Clarkson winds up with the best bid.
Title: Re: Toll Lanes on US 69 in Overland Park
Post by: Ned Weasel on July 09, 2021, 08:32:58 PM
https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/files/Construction-Announcements-2021/US69_Johnson_July2021.pdf

Quote
First express toll lane in the Midwest.

I guess the ones in Minnesota don't count because HOVs get to use them for free?