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Regional Boards => Midwest - Great Lakes => Topic started by: I-39 on July 22, 2021, 12:31:52 PM

Title: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: I-39 on July 22, 2021, 12:31:52 PM
In 1993, ISTHA was authorized by the legislature to extend I-355 south to I-80 and further to I-57. As we know, the former opened in 2007, while the latter never got past being a concept.

The excuse was that a further extension to I-57 wasn't needed unless the Peotone airport was built, but in reality, it was needed regardless due to the Illiana Expressway. It could have connected with the Illiana and provided a more direct link back to I-80. Yet, they allowed a bunch of development south of I-80 to prevent a further extension. Why?
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Brandon on July 22, 2021, 12:40:21 PM
There’s a residential subdivision in the way at the south end that shouldn’t have been allowed to be built.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: 3467 on July 22, 2021, 01:00:08 PM
I think that's why the Illianas connection to 80 was 55 or a connection to the prairie parkway. Illinois along with the crosstown still exist as unconstrained months 2050. But 53 is there too. Illiana is out of the Indiana plan though.

Btw Kane county 2050 is out. Most of the state highways wish list is route 47.
6 lane of tollway to Illinois 47.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on July 22, 2021, 01:01:39 PM
There was once a corridor that connected to I-80 somewhere west of the US 30 interchange that was included in New Lenox's land use plan. The corridor disappeared somewhere in the early 2010s.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 22, 2021, 02:05:55 PM
I think Interstate 355 was lucky to get its extension to Interstate 80. I'm not sure any further extension of 355 would have been successfully constructed.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: I-39 on July 22, 2021, 09:36:00 PM
There was once a corridor that connected to I-80 somewhere west of the US 30 interchange that was included in New Lenox's land use plan. The corridor disappeared somewhere in the early 2010s.

Really is a shame this wasn’t built.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 09:51:43 PM
Maybe not to I-57, but would be nice if there were space reserved for a southern extension to a completed Illiana Expy. From the Illiana, it can provide access to I-57, and hopefully I-65 too.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 23, 2021, 07:00:38 AM
There’s a residential subdivision in the way at the south end that shouldn’t have been allowed to be built.

That residential area dates back to at least the early 1990s if not earlier.  I had a friend who lived in that subdivision.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on July 23, 2021, 04:24:18 PM
I remember when ISTHA designed the I-355 Extension to I-80.

It had very few exits and a beautifully designed bridge over the Des Plaines River.

After all that is what the locals wanted, no traffic from the tollway in their neighborhoods so ISTHA complied.

Then the politicians got involved. Ramps were suddenly put back in and the county had to help pay for them.

ISTHA took away that suspension bridge and had it rebid as a design build. Now you have the ugliest pre-stressed concrete bridge with absolutely no aesthetic value whatsoever.

Basically a low bid design that is 100% functional, but is 100% forgettable.

As for going farther, that proposal was to please some Will County politicos but it never went anywhere.

If anything gets built in Illinois uncertain & broke future, it would be a connector from I-80 in Morris and cross I-55 and I-57 and end somewhere near the future airport. And it will be a toll road.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on July 24, 2021, 04:54:22 PM
If anything gets built in Illinois uncertain & broke future, it would be a connector from I-80 in Morris and cross I-55 and I-57 and end somewhere near the future airport. And it will be a toll road.
The Houbolt Road toll bridge over the Des Plaines River is under construction. I-80 widening through Joliet is under design, with some pieces under construction. And a new interchange at I-57 near the South Suburban Airport appears lined up for a federal earmark in the upcoming infrastructure bill. Those are the tangible new/expansion projects I see in the area.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on July 24, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
If anything gets built in Illinois uncertain & broke future, it would be a connector from I-80 in Morris and cross I-55 and I-57 and end somewhere near the future airport. And it will be a toll road.
The Houbolt Road toll bridge over the Des Plaines River is under construction. I-80 widening through Joliet is under design, with some pieces under construction. And a new interchange at I-57 near the South Suburban Airport appears lined up for a federal earmark in the upcoming infrastructure bill. Those are the tangible new/expansion projects I see in the area.

Yes, the Houbolt Road/Hollywood Road bridge will help with trucks reaching the Elwood Industrial Park without having to use IL-53 and the congestion it causes with the Abraham Lincoln National Cemetery.  Hopefully it will also improve truck access for both UP Global IV and BNSF Logistics Park. Elwood Industrial Road already has a multilane bridge over the tracks between UP Gloval IV and BNSF Chillicothe Sub.

This bridge and upgraded exit, when complete, will most definitely take the pressure off of the I-80/IL-53 exit. There are only 3 non-interstate bridges from Wilmington (on the Kankakee River) all the way to Joliet (on the Des Plaines). IL-53 & Will Road in Wilmington and Brandon Road in Joliet.

But long term they need a full interstate type ROW from Ridgecrest, across the Illinois, through the old Dresden coal plant property and just south of the BNSF facility through the former Arsenal to I-57 @ Peotone.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Crash_It on July 27, 2021, 01:17:35 AM
I remember when ISTHA designed the I-355 Extension to I-80.

It had very few exits and a beautifully designed bridge over the Des Plaines River.

After all that is what the locals wanted, no traffic from the tollway in their neighborhoods so ISTHA complied.

Then the politicians got involved. Ramps were suddenly put back in and the county had to help pay for them.

ISTHA took away that suspension bridge and had it rebid as a design build. Now you have the ugliest pre-stressed concrete bridge with absolutely no aesthetic value whatsoever.

Basically a low bid design that is 100% functional, but is 100% forgettable.

As for going farther, that proposal was to please some Will County politicos but it never went anywhere.

If anything gets built in Illinois uncertain & broke future, it would be a connector from I-80 in Morris and cross I-55 and I-57 and end somewhere near the future airport. And it will be a toll road.


It's not forgettable. It's one of the highest bridges over a body of water ever built. Not to mention that some of the off ramp bridges in that area are some of the funnest ever. That's some amazing engineering if you ask me. Pretty hilly around there too.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Henry on July 27, 2021, 10:22:20 AM
They should be satisfied that I-355 was built to I-80 in the first place, Illiana or not.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on July 27, 2021, 03:01:06 PM
They should be satisfied that I-355 was built to I-80 in the first place, Illiana or not.
It was a fascinating project. I got a tour of it a week or 2 before it opened from one of the engineering companies on the project. Along with the I-57 new connections to I-294, this project helped to open up an economically depressed area of the south suburbs to the more lucrative job markets in Will, DuPage, Kane and NW Cook counties.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on July 27, 2021, 08:19:13 PM
They should be satisfied that I-355 was built to I-80 in the first place, Illiana or not.
It was a fascinating project. I got a tour of it a week or 2 before it opened from one of the engineering companies on the project. Along with the I-57 new connections to I-294, this project helped to open up an economically depressed area of the south suburbs to the more lucrative job markets in Will, DuPage, Kane and NW Cook counties.

I haven't seen any post build economic studies on the route, but the logistics/warehouse boom they expected along the route didn't really materialize. I can probably count them on both hands. Most of it was built in Bolingbrook along I-55 instead.

While not scientific by any means people I know in New Lenox, Mokena, Manhattan get more benefit from the Metra route than they did commuting on I-355.

But it did remove a boat load of north south traffic on US-45.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on July 28, 2021, 01:13:00 PM
I haven't seen any post build economic studies on the route, but the logistics/warehouse boom they expected along the route didn't really materialize. I can probably count them on both hands. Most of it was built in Bolingbrook along I-55 instead.

While not scientific by any means people I know in New Lenox, Mokena, Manhattan get more benefit from the Metra route than they did commuting on I-355.

But it did remove a boat load of north south traffic on US-45.

The Metra Southwest Service extension provided a benefit to far flung commuters, but boarded an average of 19 passengers a day at Manhattan and 19 a day at Laraway, pre-pandemic in 2018. The Rock Island line that's been there forever carries far more passengers into the loop from Mokena, New Lenox and Tinley, if downtown is where you are going, and that's the one I usually catch if I'm going that way. I agree development has been slow to the south I-355 corridor, but 2 of my grandkids were born at the new hospital at the south end, and they're still growing! My comment was more directed at the south Cook suburbs east of Frankfort where I grew up, and where other than the Loop, jobs were harder to access in say Oak Brook or Elk Grove or Bolingbrook before I-355 went in. It was either a lot of backtracking on I-80 west to I-55 north, making your way to the more crowded I-294, or grinding it out on arterials like US 45.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 01:50:06 PM

There’s a residential subdivision in the way at the south end that shouldn’t have been allowed to be built.

That residential area dates back to at least the early 1990s if not earlier.  I had a friend who lived in that subdivision.

The southern end of current I-355?  Which subdivision?

I have no memory of the area where Walker Country Estates subdivision is from when I grew up in New Lenox in the 1980s, but this site (https://www.homesbymarco.com/subdivisions/walker_country_estates_in_new_lenox_il) suggests it was built in the early 2000s.

Historic Aerials shows that area still undeveloped on their 1993 map, with roads but no houses yet on their 1998 map.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on July 28, 2021, 11:45:37 PM
I haven't seen any post build economic studies on the route, but the logistics/warehouse boom they expected along the route didn't really materialize. I can probably count them on both hands. Most of it was built in Bolingbrook along I-55 instead.

While not scientific by any means people I know in New Lenox, Mokena, Manhattan get more benefit from the Metra route than they did commuting on I-355.

But it did remove a boat load of north south traffic on US-45.

The Metra Southwest Service extension provided a benefit to far flung commuters, but boarded an average of 19 passengers a day at Manhattan and 19 a day at Laraway, pre-pandemic in 2018. The Rock Island line that's been there forever carries far more passengers into the loop from Mokena, New Lenox and Tinley, if downtown is where you are going, and that's the one I usually catch if I'm going that way. I agree development has been slow to the south I-355 corridor, but 2 of my grandkids were born at the new hospital at the south end, and they're still growing! My comment was more directed at the south Cook suburbs east of Frankfort where I grew up, and where other than the Loop, jobs were harder to access in say Oak Brook or Elk Grove or Bolingbrook before I-355 went in. It was either a lot of backtracking on I-80 west to I-55 north, making your way to the more crowded I-294, or grinding it out on arterials like US 45.

I remember reading something in either the Daily Southtown or Daily Herald about Orland Park officials saying that when I-355 opened to I-80, AADT and traffic flow improved mostly around 159th Street.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 29, 2021, 09:55:36 AM

There’s a residential subdivision in the way at the south end that shouldn’t have been allowed to be built.

That residential area dates back to at least the early 1990s if not earlier.  I had a friend who lived in that subdivision.

The southern end of current I-355?  Which subdivision?

I have no memory of the area where Walker Country Estates subdivision is from when I grew up in New Lenox in the 1980s, but this site (https://www.homesbymarco.com/subdivisions/walker_country_estates_in_new_lenox_il) suggests it was built in the early 2000s.

Historic Aerials shows that area still undeveloped on their 1993 map, with roads but no houses yet on their 1998 map.
The subdivision off Francis and Spector was where my friend lived. The house was at the end of Carol Rd.  And looking closer at the map, I realize that was just west of the end of 355. For some reason I thought it was immediately south.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: kphoger on July 29, 2021, 11:05:04 AM
The Metra Southwest Service extension provided a benefit to far flung commuters, but boarded an average of 19 passengers a day at Manhattan and 19 a day at Laraway, pre-pandemic in 2018. The Rock Island line that's been there forever carries far more passengers into the loop from Mokena, New Lenox and Tinley, if downtown is where you are going, and that's the one I usually catch if I'm going that way. I agree development has been slow to the south I-355 corridor, but 2 of my grandkids were born at the new hospital at the south end, and they're still growing! My comment was more directed at the south Cook suburbs east of Frankfort where I grew up, and where other than the Loop, jobs were harder to access in say Oak Brook or Elk Grove or Bolingbrook before I-355 went in. It was either a lot of backtracking on I-80 west to I-55 north, making your way to the more crowded I-294, or grinding it out on arterials like US 45.

From about age three through the end of third grade, I grew up at a dead end next to that railroad (here (https://goo.gl/maps/632LsFjDPhZgAgY57)).  Back then, there were only about two trains per day on that line, and at least one of them was at night.  On the other side of the tracks was a forest and a man who bought farm animals to sell at auction.  I grew up playing on the railroad, exploring the forest, feeding the deer and trying to catch the guinea fowl, climbing down onto the ledge underneath the Old Plank Road Trail bridge, etc.

Because it was such a little-used railroad at the time, my friends and I played right on the tracks all the time.

One day, two friends and I decided to take a hike north up the line.  Eventually, we came to the trestle (https://goo.gl/maps/NWPYBfCe3NGXSeFe6) that goes over the Rock Island line.  It's one of those with naught but gaps between the ties.  Cool!  We decided to cross the trestle, a bit scared by vertigo, but careful to not fall through to the tracks below.  When we were halfway across, an approaching Metra train blew its whistle and scared the living daylights out of me.  I thought there was a train immediately behind us!  I literally jumped back from fright.  Fortunately, I landed on a tie—one or two behind the one I had alighted from.  That was one of the scariest childhood experiences I remember.

It's kind of hard for me to imagine Metra service operating on that line now because, when I was living there, there was still a gravel section of Laraway Road.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: 3467 on July 29, 2021, 04:34:29 PM
I wonder why they didn't authorize it to Indiana. Perhaps Indiana ? Or local issues . Those were the swing house districts at the time and Madigan was focused on What they wanted.
I have a 97 map of the tollway that showed the end at 80 and the 53 extension but not the 420 extension. Was it because the tollway knew then that they were not viable.
Also there was no Elgin Ohare because IDOT  built part and the City had not decided on the west bypass.
The Foxway wasn't there. When the Repubicans took over the legislature in 94 Pate Phillip said he wanted a free Foxway though not long after that Edgar cancelled it because the ROW no longer existed. That later begat the attempt to make the Prairie Parkway it's replacement.

Those were some of the machinations I remember. Anyway it's interesting to see what got built and why .
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on July 29, 2021, 05:37:28 PM
From about age three through the end of third grade, I grew up at a dead end next to that railroad (here (https://goo.gl/maps/632LsFjDPhZgAgY57)).  Back then, there were only about two trains per day on that line, and at least one of them was at night.  On the other side of the tracks was a forest and a man who bought farm animals to sell at auction.  I grew up playing on the railroad, exploring the forest, feeding the deer and trying to catch the guinea fowl, climbing down onto the ledge underneath the Old Plank Road Trail bridge, etc.

Because it was such a little-used railroad at the time, my friends and I played right on the tracks all the time.

One day, two friends and I decided to take a hike north up the line.  Eventually, we came to the trestle (https://goo.gl/maps/NWPYBfCe3NGXSeFe6) that goes over the Rock Island line.  It's one of those with naught but gaps between the ties.  Cool!  We decided to cross the trestle, a bit scared by vertigo, but careful to not fall through to the tracks below.  When we were halfway across, an approaching Metra train blew its whistle and scared the living daylights out of me.  I thought there was a train immediately behind us!  I literally jumped back from fright.  Fortunately, I landed on a tie—one or two behind the one I had alighted from.  That was one of the scariest childhood experiences I remember.

It's kind of hard for me to imagine Metra service operating on that line now because, when I was living there, there was still a gravel section of Laraway Road.

One of my many current consultant projects is widening Laraway road to 4 lanes, a little bit west of where you were, from Cherry Hill Road to Nelson Road. The Metra service to Laraway and Manhattan, south of the previous Orland Park terminus, didn't start until January 30, 2006. That line once went straight through to Decatur and in the WW II era, there were about 4 passenger trains each way a day on it. The line got abandoned between Gibson City and Manhattan in 1991, thus the very infrequent freight train to Manhattan until Metra came in, and they still only run a few commuter trains all the way to Manhattan while others still terminate in Orland Park.

I had my moments as a kid doing things around the tracks, but never as scary as getting caught on a bridge with a train approaching. 2 youngsters got killed just a few years ago between Joliet and New Lenox at the Hickory Creek bridge on the Metra Rock Island line when they were caught on a bridge by a train. One was his mom's only child; it chokes me up every time I think of it, since I have passed over that bridge on a train countless times.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/missing-teen-found-days-after-being-struck-by-metra-train-police-said/159033/
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on July 30, 2021, 10:36:35 AM
That rail line to Manhattan is the former Wabash. It was taken over by what is now Norfolk Southern and now Metra.  There were already several lines out of Chicago, many barely making it, some to St Louis and some to KC and so the line was really redundant and abandoned. It later became a route to get corn syrup from Decatur to the candy factories in Chicago.

I used to work with a woman who was a conductor way back when the Wabash used to run commuter service on that line pre-RTA.

I was around when the Fox Valley Freeway was proposed to connect the Sears HQ complex to the southern suburbs. For the most part it was going to use an existing ROW occupied by Commonwealth Edison (now Exelon).

DuPage County leadership, proud of their effort to get I-355 through the bottlenecks, decided to shoot for gold again with the FWF and unfortunately, power shifted in the Illinois legislature and the game was up.

The alternate, the Prairie Parkway was devised by several Illinois Republicans along with the then Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert.  Because he was Speaker, he had leverage to get funding in several annual bills for IDOT to begin land acquisition.

That was conceived to be the final north-south "reliever" route between I-355 and I-39.

Unfortunately some of that land was owned by entities where Hastert had an interest. He has since passed away.

Western Kane County rural interests were dead set against it along with the usual green interests.

It is no longer in any long term planning, but I don't think IDOT has sold back the land they acquired from those Congressional grants. IDOT is renown for sitting on their land once they get their hands on it.

Last time I read anything about it, it mentioned that IDOT owned about 20-30% of the needed ROW for the PP.

As for I-355, its days are done for going anywhere further south. There was no corridor protection done. It will go no farther.

Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Konza on July 30, 2021, 03:51:09 PM
The original post gets to the gist of this.

No Peotone airport = no real need for a southward extension of I-355.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: I-39 on July 30, 2021, 04:32:51 PM
The original post gets to the gist of this.

No Peotone airport = no real need for a southward extension of I-355.

Yes there is, because of the Illiana Expressway.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: 3467 on July 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Its more like no Indiana connection . I recall Edgars DOT sec said Indiana was not on board . I asked what  50 ? He said South Suburban because they thought they would need it for the airport. But he added both states had given up 50 at the time and FHWA wondered why we wanted IL 1 months NHS. Because 41 was on it. Our first NHS was a nod to the supplemental freeways.  Now it's just the FAP system.

I do suspect the extension to 57 was for the airport but no farther because Indiana.

Madigan didn't want the airport but went along because of his South Suburban members they were the key to the Illinois house then. So both parties tried to get popular projects

I think Indiana liked to cause problems because they wanted to promote Gary and the toll road. Quinn and Daniels came together on the Illiana then Rainer killed it and though Pritzger and Halcomb get along well I don't think it ever came up.

It's not in North West Indiana MPO plane but it is in the unconstrained list at CMAP. So is 53  so it may not mean much.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 30, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
The original post gets to the gist of this.

No Peotone airport = no real need for a southward extension of I-355.

Considering how often I-80 seems to have congestion between I-355 and I-57, and the lack of a decent arterial or semi-expressway to get south from I-355 for bypassing I-80 and cutting over to I-57, there's a need for at least some sort of partial extension.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: ilpt4u on July 30, 2021, 11:40:24 PM
Back when the extension to I-57 was a working concept, was there not a proposal to route I-355 along I-80 (either via Multiplex or via parallel carriageways a la I-355 and I-88) slightly west, and then break south for I-57 and the Peotone area? I never knew the exact “break” point where 355 was to diverge from 80

If there were any Political will to do it, I feel like the extension could still happen. It would be tight, and a warehouse or two would have to go and maybe a church, but the area at Gougar and I-80 could squeeze in a Freeway interchange and a Freeway heading south from there

That is just about the only spot in that general area where a southern extension could continue
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on July 31, 2021, 05:03:11 PM
As late as 2018 politicos were still comparing the PP to I-355. But it was much different unfortunately.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/aurora-beacon-news/ct-abn-prairie-parkway-st-0327-20180326-story.html (https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/aurora-beacon-news/ct-abn-prairie-parkway-st-0327-20180326-story.html)

It appears the Prairie Parkway, a planned link between Interstates 88 and 80, is truly dead.

Although many pronounced it dead about six years ago, when the Federal Highway Administration rescinded its approval of an alternative for the highway, others said it had a faint heartbeat as long as the state kept its protected corridor for the road.

But the Illinois Department of Transportation announced recently that it is canceling its corridor for the planned 37-mile Prairie Parkway through a part of southern Kane County, Kendall County and a part of northern Grundy County.

"This removes the last vestige of the ill-conceived billion-dollar project," said Jan Strasma, chairman of Citizens Against the Sprawlway, which organized in 2001 to fight the Prairie Parkway. "This final step removes the possibility of an unneeded expressway that would destroy thousands of acres of farmland, threaten the Fox River and its tributaries, and forever change the area's small community way of life."

While there has been discussion and even attempts at siting a centerline for an outer beltway since the 1980s, former U.S. Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert of Yorkville started the main Prairie Parkway attempt in 2001.

By the time he resigned from Congress in 2008, Hastert had gotten $207 million earmarked as part of the 2005 federal transportation bill for the parkway. While that was a fraction of the overall cost, it was enough to begin the process of siting the corridor and beginning Phase I engineering.

Many Kendall County officials through the years defended the parkway as an economic development generator for the county, and said that the link between Interstates 88 and 80 was necessary as the Chicago suburbs grow and traffic continues to choke north-south routes closer to Chicago.

There is only one main north-south route through Kendall County, Route 47. Kendall County Board Chairman Scott Gryder said more north-south routes remain "a very real need."

Gryder said county officials believe the state spent as much as $100 million in protecting the corridor, some of that in actual right-of-way purchase of about 15 acres of land. The rest would have been in legal costs and some engineering.

"Is that all out the window now?" he said. "It seems like a colossal waste of money. The big takeaway from this is that they could have spent that money on several big projects."

Gryder pointed out that Kendall County is working on several regional north-south connections through the county, including a Grove, Collins and Minkler roads hook-up. There also is the dormant Wikaduke Trail project on the eastern edge of the county.

Another planned north-south linkup would involve Eldamain Road, the border between Yorkville and Plano. Most of the road has been widened or is in planning to be widened, but the plan involves an eventual bridge crossing of the Fox River.

Gryder pointed out that money spent by the state on the Prairie Parkway would have more than paid the estimated $30 million it will take for the Eldamain Road bridge crossing.

The project is estimated to be at least 10 years away, Gryder said.

As far as the state abandoning the Prairie Parkway corridor, Gryder said it "didn't seem like having the protection was hurting anything."

The Citizens Against the Sprawlway disagreed. They pointed out that property owners in that corridor could not make any changes to their land without "state intervention."

Gryder said he believes the Prairie Parkway would have been similar to I-355, and that there still could be a need someday for a linkup between Interstates 80 and 88.

"What shape that takes is yet to be seen," he said.


Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Ryctor2018 on July 31, 2021, 05:39:46 PM

Yes there is, because of the Illiana Expressway.
[/quote]

Extending it to the proposed Illiana Tollway makes since, if this were done today. Or if the Infinity Gauntlet Thanos used in the Avengers movies really existed. Sarcasm aside, the deal is the Illiana was not proposed until 2010 (I think). The extension of I-355 was proposed decades earlier then completed 3 years earlier than the first drafts of Illiana were sketched out. A better idea was extending I-355 south to I-57 (or at least U.S. 30). However, IDOT did not protect the land. Now, there's virtually no possibility to extend I-355 further south without getting into fictional territory.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on August 02, 2021, 12:37:20 AM
Back when the extension to I-57 was a working concept, was there not a proposal to route I-355 along I-80 (either via Multiplex or via parallel carriageways a la I-355 and I-88) slightly west, and then break south for I-57 and the Peotone area? I never knew the exact “break” point where 355 was to diverge from 80

If there were any Political will to do it, I feel like the extension could still happen. It would be tight, and a warehouse or two would have to go and maybe a church, but the area at Gougar and I-80 could squeeze in a Freeway interchange and a Freeway heading south from there

That is just about the only spot in that general area where a southern extension could continue

That was indeed the plan, to multiplex west on 80 from the now-built I-355 junction to a location west of the US 30 interchange, then continuing south. There was a vacant strip of land in the New Lenox area that was identified as the corridor in the village's land use plan, perhaps between Gougar and Cherry Hill roads but it's been a long time since I saw it, and I noticed it got removed at some point, likely around 2010 or so.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on August 04, 2021, 12:41:32 PM
The alternate, the Prairie Parkway was devised by several Illinois Republicans along with the then Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert.  Because he was Speaker, he had leverage to get funding in several annual bills for IDOT to begin land acquisition.

That was conceived to be the final north-south "reliever" route between I-355 and I-39.

Unfortunately some of that land was owned by entities where Hastert had an interest. He has since passed away.

Western Kane County rural interests were dead set against it along with the usual green interests.

It is no longer in any long term planning, but I don't think IDOT has sold back the land they acquired from those Congressional grants. IDOT is renown for sitting on their land once they get their hands on it.

Last time I read anything about it, it mentioned that IDOT owned about 20-30% of the needed ROW for the PP.

Well, Hastert's not dead yet, but all vestiges of his memory are understandably being removed from the area. He didn't own any of the land directly within the corridor but had an interest in a proposed development near Galena Road where the corridor would pass nearby. IDOT didn't propose an exit at Galena Road (the nearest exits were at US 34 and US 30, about 5 miles in each direction) but somehow the county got behind a request to add a few interchanges to the route including Galena Road. That request was ultimately NOT incorporated in the EIS, which IDOT later agreed to put on the shelf as a "no build" after Pat Quinn became governor. Ironically, nothing ever got built on that development on Galena Road as the Great Recession was about to hit. Also ironically, the original lawsuit against the Prairie Parkway claimed depression of land values if it were built, and the narrative suddenly switched to enrichment of land values if it were built when news of Hastert's interest in the Galena Road property came out.

There are substantial acreages bought and still owned by IDOT near the proposed I-80 and US 34 interchanges, and a few other parcels here and there. A commercial sod farm formerly owned the land near I-80 and a family farm formerly owned the land near US 34. 

The rest of the Prairie Parkway federal money eventually went to widening IL 47 from I-80 to Caton Farm Road, widening US 34 from Plano to Oswego, and the new I-88/IL 47 interchange.

If you ever go under the Minooka Road bridge over I-80, you will notice that it was built extra wide to accommodate ramps for the proposed PP interchange. Also, the center median gets extra wide on US 34 east of Needham Road in Plano to accommodate turn lanes where the interchange was planned. These are the only physical vestiges of the planned freeway, and they will likely remain in place for a long time. 
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on August 05, 2021, 03:05:04 PM
The alternate, the Prairie Parkway was devised by several Illinois Republicans along with the then Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert.  Because he was Speaker, he had leverage to get funding in several annual bills for IDOT to begin land acquisition.

That was conceived to be the final north-south "reliever" route between I-355 and I-39.

Unfortunately some of that land was owned by entities where Hastert had an interest. He has since passed away.

Western Kane County rural interests were dead set against it along with the usual green interests.

It is no longer in any long term planning, but I don't think IDOT has sold back the land they acquired from those Congressional grants. IDOT is renown for sitting on their land once they get their hands on it.

Last time I read anything about it, it mentioned that IDOT owned about 20-30% of the needed ROW for the PP.

Well, Hastert's not dead yet, but all vestiges of his memory are understandably being removed from the area. He didn't own any of the land directly within the corridor but had an interest in a proposed development near Galena Road where the corridor would pass nearby. IDOT didn't propose an exit at Galena Road (the nearest exits were at US 34 and US 30, about 5 miles in each direction) but somehow the county got behind a request to add a few interchanges to the route including Galena Road. That request was ultimately NOT incorporated in the EIS, which IDOT later agreed to put on the shelf as a "no build" after Pat Quinn became governor. Ironically, nothing ever got built on that development on Galena Road as the Great Recession was about to hit. Also ironically, the original lawsuit against the Prairie Parkway claimed depression of land values if it were built, and the narrative suddenly switched to enrichment of land values if it were built when news of Hastert's interest in the Galena Road property came out.

There are substantial acreages bought and still owned by IDOT near the proposed I-80 and US 34 interchanges, and a few other parcels here and there. A commercial sod farm formerly owned the land near I-80 and a family farm formerly owned the land near US 34. 

The rest of the Prairie Parkway federal money eventually went to widening IL 47 from I-80 to Caton Farm Road, widening US 34 from Plano to Oswego, and the new I-88/IL 47 interchange.

If you ever go under the Minooka Road bridge over I-80, you will notice that it was built extra wide to accommodate ramps for the proposed PP interchange. Also, the center median gets extra wide on US 34 east of Needham Road in Plano to accommodate turn lanes where the interchange was planned. These are the only physical vestiges of the planned freeway, and they will likely remain in place for a long time.

My apology. I thought Mr. Hastert had passed away. I had confused it with a stroke he had just before his prison term. I thought the stroke had killed him.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: captkirk_4 on September 06, 2021, 11:48:11 AM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done. I looked on the overhead maps and it's all built up just south of the 355 and 80 so unless some alternate route is found it would be impossible even had they the will. I had thought instead of the Illiniana which seems dead now too they could just continue the four line, at grade crossing Illinois 17 east, from where it goes down to two lanes around Sun River Terrace and diverts north to Mommence. A four lane at grade roadway from Sun River Terrace all the way to I-65 at Roselawn would be a welcome diversion from the Kingery Borman traffic jam.

I know heading north from Central Illinois in the afternoon the phone app always shows that I-80 stretch stopped and bright red all the way from 57 to 65 so I usually divert over at exit 312 on 57 along IL 17 over to Mommence, then IL 114 which becomes IN 10 to Roselawn where I can catch I 65 up to 80-94 to Michigan. The IL 114 IN 10 are pretty poor secondary roads in a floodplain with some stretches lacking a shoulder and having deep ditches a few feet off the side of the road. Often a semi truck is rolling along at 53 miles an hour with 6 or 7 cars backing up behind it, not to mention how slow they are getting through the brief green light across US 41.

Bizarrely there are all these nudist colonies in Roselawn for some reason? Had noticed the sings and thought the silhouette of the couple reminded me of those nude people on that gold engraving on the space probe so looked up what all these "sun clubs" along IN 10 were. Just as I suspected, nudist colonies.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Crash_It on September 06, 2021, 11:21:57 PM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: ilpt4u on September 07, 2021, 01:46:46 PM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.
Hard to say the IL 390 Extension is “done” - the Eastern extension is built, but not “done” per se, until I-490 is done, and even then, not really until the Western ORD terminal is built, because IL 390 will be to the West what I-190 is to the current ORD terminals. The Western Extension to (theoretically) meet the US 20 Elgin Freeway is still a maybe. Of course, it took ISTHA taking over the former Elgin-O’Hare Expressway/Now IL 390 Tollway and instituting Tolls to get the Eastern Extension built

The Rehab on I-255 is nice, but it was mostly done with asphalt paving. Granted, the Metro East and SoIL doesn’t get the same level of snow and cold as NoIL and Chicagoland, but asphalt paved roadways still seem to not hold up quite as well as concrete, IMO. We’ll see
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: US20IL64 on September 07, 2021, 10:26:26 PM
490 may relieve truck traffic that clogs up the 290/53 cloverleaf, hopefully.

Big thing needed is rebuilding I80 bridge and Ike/290 [no it should not be I88] re-do in near west burbs.

Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: paulthemapguy on October 07, 2021, 10:22:45 AM
This is treading into Fictional territory, but I thought I would post my map for my idea of what the I-355 extension would look like.  https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=13MAHkPkSIcxAy22UHny3Uhdye2M&usp=sharing
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: ChiMilNet on October 07, 2021, 10:38:43 AM
This is treading into Fictional territory, but I thought I would post my map for my idea of what the I-355 extension would look like.  https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=13MAHkPkSIcxAy22UHny3Uhdye2M&usp=sharing

Too bad it's getting into fictional territory, because I really like the layout of not only the I-57 extension, but also the Fox Valley Expressway. That said, it's a small miracle that I-355 was even extended to I-80. At this point, the only realistic "extension" of I-355 would be to reroute it over the I-290 portion North of its current North Terminus. Illinois not locking up ROW for I-355 South of I-80 pretty much sealed its fate.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: abefroman329 on October 07, 2021, 11:00:34 AM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.
Hard to say the IL 390 Extension is “done” - the Eastern extension is built, but not “done” per se, until I-490 is done, and even then, not really until the Western ORD terminal is built, because IL 390 will be to the West what I-190 is to the current ORD terminals. The Western Extension to (theoretically) meet the US 20 Elgin Freeway is still a maybe. Of course, it took ISTHA taking over the former Elgin-O’Hare Expressway/Now IL 390 Tollway and instituting Tolls to get the Eastern Extension built

The Rehab on I-255 is nice, but it was mostly done with asphalt paving. Granted, the Metro East and SoIL doesn’t get the same level of snow and cold as NoIL and Chicagoland, but asphalt paved roadways still seem to not hold up quite as well as concrete, IMO. We’ll see
I don't know that the Western Terminal is still in the works and I don't know if there are still plans to extend IL-390 east of I-490. 
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: captkirk_4 on October 10, 2021, 11:16:21 AM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.

I remember the 53 extension up to Grayslake has been trying to get built since the 80s but all we ever got was a single mile from Dundee Road up to Lake Cook. What we got was an inadequate trickle when we needed Eisenhower level expansion which only seems still being done in Texas and a handful of other places. Lake County is a giant traffic jam. I left Chicagoland in 1990, but visited about 15 year later and went up Route 12. As a kid it wasn't too bad with traffic and already partially expressway. What should have been done is convert the rest to limited access along with the 53 extension up to Great America. But what happened was the addition of new stop lights every half mile and it took me literally forever to get up to Fox Lake. With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.) So instead of the Illiana I think a four lane at grade crossing road like US 51 from Bloomington to Pana would be a viable option. IL 17 is already four lane from Kankakee to Sun River Terrace, extend that south of Mommence into Indiana South of Roselawn and four lane 17 west of Kankakee over to I 55 and Wilmington. Yesterday I already saw a lot of trucks getting off 65 northbound at Roselawn and going west over to 57 along that two lane road with a huge moat a foot off to the side of the road on Indiana 10. Any sudden veering an a semi will be laying in the ditch laying on it's side. Too much traffic both ways to pass slow vehicles and too many trees for good visibility even without any oncoming traffic. Sill better than the 70 minute delay from Exit 11 where 65 and 94 come together to the State Line, then more delays on 80 in Illinois itself.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Revive 755 on October 10, 2021, 10:55:21 PM
With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.)

Going off of Wikipedia, it doesn't look like the overall Detroit metro area has experienced a significant population decline like the core city did.  I could see Chicagoland going more like metro St. Louis where population generally quits growing but the overall area grows outward (though right now I don't have much confidence in predictions until seeing how things play out for a couple years after the pandemic winds down).
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Crash_It on October 11, 2021, 02:14:44 PM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.

.With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.)


Chicago will never become like Detroit, it actually grew in population unlike Detroit. Not that many people overall have left Illinois. Or, they left and came back.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: paulthemapguy on October 20, 2021, 09:08:40 AM
With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.)

Going off of Wikipedia, it doesn't look like the overall Detroit metro area has experienced a significant population decline like the core city did.  I could see Chicagoland going more like metro St. Louis where population generally quits growing but the overall area grows outward (though right now I don't have much confidence in predictions until seeing how things play out for a couple years after the pandemic winds down).

This makes more sense. New homes and businesses sure are getting built out here to continue the urban sprawl, but it isn't a super-fast explosion of growth like in, say, 2000-2006.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 20, 2021, 09:50:09 AM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.

.With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.)


Chicago will never become like Detroit, it actually grew in population unlike Detroit. Not that many people overall have left Illinois. Or, they left and came back.


Illinois declined in population between 2010 and 2020.  Chicagoland *increased* in population during the same time frame.  It's the rural counties and some mid-sized cities where people are leaving.

https://www.chicagomag.com/news/where-illinois-is-losing-population/

Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: cabiness42 on October 20, 2021, 10:31:56 AM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.

.With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.)


Chicago will never become like Detroit, it actually grew in population unlike Detroit. Not that many people overall have left Illinois. Or, they left and came back.


Illinois declined in population between 2010 and 2020.  Chicagoland *increased* in population during the same time frame.  It's the rural counties and some mid-sized cities where people are leaving.

https://www.chicagomag.com/news/where-illinois-is-losing-population/



They're tired of funding Chicago.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: triplemultiplex on October 20, 2021, 04:58:58 PM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.

.With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.)


Chicago will never become like Detroit, it actually grew in population unlike Detroit. Not that many people overall have left Illinois. Or, they left and came back.


Illinois declined in population between 2010 and 2020.  Chicagoland *increased* in population during the same time frame.  It's the rural counties and some mid-sized cities where people are leaving.

https://www.chicagomag.com/news/where-illinois-is-losing-population/



They're tired of funding Chicago.

Pssh those yokels got it backward; Chicago funds their country asses.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: mukade on October 20, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
What do you expect in Illinois, they can't get anything done.

Doesn't look like you get out much

IL390 Extension - Done ✅
I255 rehab - Done ✅
Jane Byrne interchange is now showing significant progress - ✔️

And possibly alot more than this but can't remember from the top of my head.

.With the state declining in population I don't think that the south Will County northern Kankakee County area will ever become sprawl (Chicago proper is going to become a ghost town like Detroit due to pro crime leadership.)


Chicago will never become like Detroit, it actually grew in population unlike Detroit. Not that many people overall have left Illinois. Or, they left and came back.

This is a comparison of population changes over time of the large cities and metropolitan areas nearest to Chicago. The biggest problem Illinois has with respect to population loss is the high property taxes.

Chicago Metro Detroit Metro St. LouisMetro Indianapolis Metro Milwaukee Metro
19503,620,9626.6%5,495,36413.9%1,849,56813.9%3,219,25626.5%856,7965.0%1,681,28117.4%427,17310.4%551,77719.7%637,3928.5%1,014,21115.7%
19603,550,404-1.9%6,794,46123.6%1,670,144-9.7%4,012,60724.6%750,026-12.5%2,262,62434.6%476,25811.5%976,42677.0%741,32416.3%1,278,85026.1%
19703,366,957-5.2%7,612,31412.0%1,514,063-9.3%4,490,90211.9%622,236-12.5%2,535,72512.1%744,62456.3%1,145,87117.4%717,099-3.3%1,403,6889.8%
19803,005,072-10.7%7,869,5423.4%1,203,368-20.5%4,387,783-2.3%453,805-27.1%2,503,549-1.3%700,807-5.9%1,208,1155.4%636,212-11.3%1,397,143-0.5%
19902,783,726-7.4%8,065,6332.5%1,027,974-14.6%4,266,654-2.8%396,685-12.6%2,580,8973.1%731,3274.4%1,294,2177.1%628,088-1.3%1,432,1492.5%
20002,896,0164.0%9,098,31612.8%951,270-7.5%4,441,5514.1%348,189-12.2%2,698,6874.6%781,9266.9%1,525,10417.8%596,974-5.0%1,500,7414.8%
20102,695,598-6.9%9,461,1054.0%713,777-25.0%4,296,250-3.3%319,294-8.3%2,787,7013.3%820,4454.9%1,887,87723.8%594,833-0.4%1,555,9083.7%
20202,746,3881.90%9,618,5021.7%639,111-10.5%4,392,0412.2%301,578-5.5%2,820,2533.3%887,6428.2%2,111,04011.8%577,222-3.0%1,575,1791.2%

1950-2020
Chicago-24.2%75.0% (metro)
Detroit-65.4%36.4% (metro)
St. Louis-64.8%57.3% (metro)
Indianapolis107.8%282.6% (metro)
Milwaukee-9.4%55.3% (metro)
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 20, 2021, 09:19:37 PM
So your "proof" that the problem with Illinois is high property taxes is that the Chicago metropolitan area grew 75% since 1950?  More than any city you chose except Indianapolis?  A metropolitan area a tenth of Chicago's size in 1950?

The "problem" with Chicago is vastly overrated.  It is a world class city that attracts a lot of people because it is a great place to raise your family and advance your career, all while living relatively cheaply compared to similar cities with similar attributes.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on October 21, 2021, 10:28:49 AM
Illinois is declining because of several factors. No one can point to just one and say that is it.

- Over taxation of property

The IL legislature has essentially taken a pay day loan using future property tax income as collateral. This has caused the increase in property taxes to offset and in some cases overtake increases in property values.

- Public service payrolls and pensions not in line with economy

Some of the poorest counties like Alexander and Hardin, the highest paid person in town is usually the district superintendent or the high school principal. In one Illinois county the highest paid person was the middle school basketball coach and PE teacher. 60% over the county median income.
In Murphysboro, Illinois the district superintendent was making over 200k, 150% over the county median.

While Illinois has been aggressively offering 5 Plus early retirements to statewide teachers, the pension benefits they offer are expensive because the teachers are leaving at age 60, not 65. This is not being offset by the lower pay of newer teachers.

- Too many government entities to support

Illinois still adheres to a very ancient governance model. It made sense in 1825, but it really hasn't changed much.

State>County>Township

In the days of horse and buggy, it completely made sense that townships had their own governance structure (roads, fire, police, parks, etc.)

Townships over time have released some of those areas in some counties. But at this point, Townships best function is to provide defined taxing areas. It's a layer of cost that can be retired.

- Too many school districts

There are many rural school districts that have become too expensive to operate relative to the economy they can support and the state has to make up the difference (and they aren't)

There are many school districts that still point back to their formation in the 1800's. With Illinois underfunding reimbursements, many of these districts are running large deficits because they can't afford the teachers and operational costs.

While this has caused many districts to merge to save themselves, but it isn't happening fast enough.

None of these issues has anything to do with urban vs rural, city vs town folk. It's about streamlining the costs of governance and get them in line with the realities of what Illinois has become.

When your population declines, you can't keep doubling down and tax the fewer yet more to make up for it. You have to reconcile what can be done to what is possible.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 21, 2021, 11:55:49 AM
Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: cabiness42 on October 21, 2021, 11:59:58 AM
Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.

It's at least part of it. I have a couple good friends that are realtors and houses in my area sell in an average of less than a week and most of them are people moving from IL because of tax reasons. The increase of working from home and not having to commute as much has really exploded that.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on October 21, 2021, 12:19:16 PM
Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.

It's at least part of it. I have a couple good friends that are realtors and houses in my area sell in an average of less than a week and most of them are people moving from IL because of tax reasons. The increase of working from home and not having to commute as much has really exploded that.

The next Census, and the intermediate estimates, will be interesting to watch. As of 2020, Cook County was showing a 10-year increase of 1.6 percent, Will County was showing an increase of 2.8 percent and Lake County, IN showed an increase of 0.5 percent. So no hard evidence of an avalanche moving from the adjacent counties east over the state line, at least not yet.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: cabiness42 on October 21, 2021, 12:29:50 PM
Those might be the reasons Illinois has fiscal problems, but those issues aren't why Illinois is declining in population.

It's at least part of it. I have a couple good friends that are realtors and houses in my area sell in an average of less than a week and most of them are people moving from IL because of tax reasons. The increase of working from home and not having to commute as much has really exploded that.

The next Census, and the intermediate estimates, will be interesting to watch. As of 2020, Cook County was showing a 10-year increase of 1.6 percent, Will County was showing an increase of 2.8 percent and Lake County, IN showed an increase of 0.5 percent. So no hard evidence of an avalanche moving from the adjacent counties east over the state line, at least not yet.

Cook County is such a huge place I'd love to see data at a smaller level. I'd guess that the north/northwestern parts account for the increase. Everybody we're seeing move into our area is coming from the south/southwest parts of Cook.

Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on October 21, 2021, 05:44:51 PM
Cook County is such a huge place I'd love to see data at a smaller level. I'd guess that the north/northwestern parts account for the increase. Everybody we're seeing move into our area is coming from the south/southwest parts of Cook.

Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.

Smaller level - these are the 9 most southwest/southern townships in Cook County, and their population change 2010-2020. I didn't get the official Census #s for 2020, these were the April 2020 estimates. The south suburbs ARE known for their high property taxes relative to the NW suburbs and City of Chicago. All but one are draining population...but if they all showed up on Lake County IN's doorstep, you'd think the county would show a lot more growth than half a percent.

Bloom - 90,977 to 87,470
Bremen - 110,069 to 106,197
Calumet - 20,770 to 19,843
Palos - 54,609 to 53,076
Rich - 76,656 to 74,752
Thornton - 169,378 to 162,029
Orland - 97,530 to 96,968
Lemont - 21,115 to 22,235
Worth - 152,607 to 146,491

Overall - 793,711 to 769,061 a drop of 24,650 (-3.1%)
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: mukade on October 21, 2021, 06:13:36 PM
So your "proof" that the problem with Illinois is high property taxes is that the Chicago metropolitan area grew 75% since 1950?  More than any city you chose except Indianapolis?  A metropolitan area a tenth of Chicago's size in 1950?

The "problem" with Chicago is vastly overrated.  It is a world class city that attracts a lot of people because it is a great place to raise your family and advance your career, all while living relatively cheaply compared to similar cities with similar attributes.

I offered no proof - just objective numbers that show how Chicago metro area growth has diminished to 1.7% in a decade compared to the way things were in 2000. You can see what the other nearby metro areas are like and come to your own conclusions. I bet Columbus, Ohio outpaces Indianapolis so it isn't a Midwest or "Rust Belt" thing.

I can guarantee very high (highest?) property taxes in Illinois are a huge issue to the point that sometimes, property taxes are higher than mortgages. Related, business taxation is high so many jobs are being lost to other states. Particularly, manufacturing jobs.


Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.

As far as Gary goes, the high taxes in Calumet Twp. and from the city itself make it expensive plus it has crime and air quality problems.

For the record, I lived in Chicagoland for 21 years so i am not anti-Chicago. I now live closer to Indy.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: mukade on October 21, 2021, 09:52:33 PM
For comparison, here are population numbers for four more cities and metro areas in the region:

MinneapolisMetroCincinnatiMetroKansas CityMetroColumbusMetroGrand RapidsMetro
1950521,7186.0%1,346,28515.8%503,99810.6%1,244,738??456,62214.1%814,35718.6%375,90122.8%503,41030.2%176,5157.4%431,21416.5%
1960482,872-7.4%1,697,40326.1%502,550-0.3%1,544,65924.1%475,5394.1%1,266,44755.5%471,31625.4%977,79094.2%177,3130.5%540,83325.4%
1970434,400-10.0%2,079,82622.5%452,525-10.0%1,690,2349.4%507,0876.6%1,434,79313.3%539,67714.5%1,170,78019.7%197,64911.5%624,73315.5%
1980370,951-14.6%2,255,5028.4%385,460-14.8%1,753,8013.8%448,159-11.6%1,504,2034.8%564,8714.7%1,270,3138.5%181,843-8.0%701,05012.2%
1990368,383-0.7%2,595,79915.1%364,040-5.6%1,844,9175.2%435,146-2,9%1,636,5288.8%632,91012.0%1,405,16810.6%189,1264.0%798,48213.9%
2000382,6183.9%3,031,91816.8%331,285-9.0%2,009,6328.9%441,5451.5%1,836,03812.2%711,47012.4%1,612,69414.8%197,8004.6%935,39317.1%
2010382,5780.0%3,346,85910.4%296,945-10.4%2,130,1516.0%459,7874.1%2,009,3429.4%787,03310.6%1,901,97417.9%188,036-4.9%993,6706.2%
2020429,95412.4%3,690,26110.3%309,3174.2%2,230,0004.7%508,09010.5%2,192,0359.1%905,74815.1%2,078,7259.3%198,9175.8%1,087,5929.5%

1950-2020
Minneapolis-17.6%174.1% (metro)
Cincinnati-38.6%79.2% (metro)
Kansas City11.3%169.2%% (metro)
Columbus141.0%312.9% (metro)
Grand Rapids12.7%152.2% (metro)

Back to the original topic....

In 1993, ISTHA was authorized by the legislature to extend I-355 south to I-80 and further to I-57. As we know, the former opened in 2007, while the latter never got past being a concept.

The excuse was that a further extension to I-57 wasn't needed unless the Peotone airport was built, but in reality, it was needed regardless due to the Illiana Expressway. It could have connected with the Illiana and provided a more direct link back to I-80. Yet, they allowed a bunch of development south of I-80 to prevent a further extension. Why?

Somehow, the Illiana completely lost support from the press in Chicago. If I remember right, Illinois lacked funding, but Indiana was ready to build it thanks to "Major Moves".

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-illiana-illinois-bruce-rauner-quinn-cmap-perspec-0609-20150608-story.html (https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-illiana-illinois-bruce-rauner-quinn-cmap-perspec-0609-20150608-story.html)


Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 22, 2021, 06:46:29 AM
So your "proof" that the problem with Illinois is high property taxes is that the Chicago metropolitan area grew 75% since 1950?  More than any city you chose except Indianapolis?  A metropolitan area a tenth of Chicago's size in 1950?

The "problem" with Chicago is vastly overrated.  It is a world class city that attracts a lot of people because it is a great place to raise your family and advance your career, all while living relatively cheaply compared to similar cities with similar attributes.

I offered no proof - just objective numbers that show how Chicago metro area growth has diminished to 1.7% in a decade compared to the way things were in 2000. You can see what the other nearby metro areas are like and come to your own conclusions. I bet Columbus, Ohio outpaces Indianapolis so it isn't a Midwest or "Rust Belt" thing.

I can guarantee very high (highest?) property taxes in Illinois are a huge issue to the point that sometimes, property taxes are higher than mortgages. Related, business taxation is high so many jobs are being lost to other states. Particularly, manufacturing jobs.


Gary continues to decline sharply and Hammond slightly, so Lake county overall is not growing quickly but certain parts certainly are.

As far as Gary goes, the high taxes in Calumet Twp. and from the city itself make it expensive plus it has crime and air quality problems.

For the record, I lived in Chicagoland for 21 years so i am not anti-Chicago. I now live closer to Indy.


So you offer no proof...but you guarantee me something?  Lol.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: mukade on October 22, 2021, 08:00:29 AM
So you offer no proof...but you guarantee me something?  Lol.

I had assumed everyone had read some of the numerous articles or news segments on the subject over the years. But if not, I found this from a quick Google search.

Quote
Illinois again ranked second for highest property tax rates in the nation in 2021, behind only New Jersey. Illinois homeowners average $4,942 in property taxes on the U.S. median valued home of $217,500 – exactly double the national average.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-again-ranks-no-2-in-u-s-for-highest-property-taxes/ (https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-again-ranks-no-2-in-u-s-for-highest-property-taxes/)

Compare the property tax amounts in Tennessee, Indiana, Kentucky, and Missouri. Then consider that the median home price in Illinois is higher than neighboring states (see link below). The population numbers bear out the fact that Illinois, including Chicagoland, is lagging other Midwest metro areas. You can decide whether or the not high taxes are part of the reason.

https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/research/median-home-values-by-state/ (https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/research/median-home-values-by-state/)
https://budgetblog.ctbaonline.org/setting-the-record-straight-on-illinois-migration-2c905c9e2ac (https://budgetblog.ctbaonline.org/setting-the-record-straight-on-illinois-migration-2c905c9e2ac)

And Indiana accounts for about 11-12% of the people leaving Illinois - so it isn't always a better climate thing driving people to move.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: cabiness42 on October 22, 2021, 08:10:14 AM
It's not just property taxes. Income taxes are higher, sales taxes are higher, alcohol taxes are higher. Gas taxes are pretty close now that Indiana has raised theirs.

As I noted earlier, realtors selling houses in my area are selling the majority of them to people coming from Illinois.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 22, 2021, 09:45:23 AM
Wow. Articles from a conservative, anti-ax think tank. Shocking.

Regardless the point is that Chicagoland is still increasing in size despite how horrible everyone says it is. If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: abefroman329 on October 22, 2021, 11:04:36 AM
$2,500 per year is the price I pay to not have to live somewhere with low taxes.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: cabiness42 on October 22, 2021, 11:37:54 AM
If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.

That's a self-defeating plan by the state, though. The rest of Illinois doesn't have the economic opportunities, but still pays high tax rates. Thus, people leave, decreasing the tax base which requires higher taxes.

Not approving the referendum to allow graduated income taxes was also very self-defeating.

Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on October 22, 2021, 12:37:39 PM
If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.

That's a self-defeating plan by the state, though. The rest of Illinois doesn't have the economic opportunities, but still pays high tax rates. Thus, people leave, decreasing the tax base which requires higher taxes.

Not approving the referendum to allow graduated income taxes was also very self-defeating.

If enough people leave, there will be cheap housing to be had. At some point there may be equilibrium in high property taxes vs. low housing prices, that along with other amenities might be attractive to potential residents. Anecdotally, one of my co-workers is having issues selling her condo in Chicago at today's prices. There are a glut of units in the city for sale, all amidst a mini-construction boom where even more units are being prepared.

Agreed on the referendum for graduated tax rates, but again, it was the "people's choice". The governor and legislature had it all teed up, but We the People saw it differently for better or worse.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 22, 2021, 01:51:18 PM
If the rest of Illinois offered similar economic opportunities, it wouldn’t shrink either.

That's a self-defeating plan by the state, though. The rest of Illinois doesn't have the economic opportunities, but still pays high tax rates. Thus, people leave, decreasing the tax base which requires higher taxes.

Not approving the referendum to allow graduated income taxes was also very self-defeating.




I agree.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: US20IL64 on October 22, 2021, 03:09:48 PM
There are still many who want to buy places in North side and West/South Loop. And suburbs along Metra tracks. Can go back and forth, but every state has plus and minus.  :pan:   :spin:

Anyway, isn't this thread about I-355?   :hmmm:
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on October 22, 2021, 04:42:14 PM
There are still many who want to buy places in North side and West/South Loop. And suburbs along Metra tracks. Can go back and forth, but every state has plus and minus.  :pan:   :spin:

Anyway, isn't this thread about I-355?   :hmmm:

I think whatever function a southern extension of 355 would have served will have to be borne by I-57, I-80 and Will County highways south of 80, and whatever improvements the state and county see fit to do to them. Cedar Road is just off the US 6/355 exit and connects to US 30, Laraway, Manhattan Monee and Wilmington Peotone roads. Not as elegant a solution as a 355 extension, but functional if you need it.

Assuming it gets built at some point, if you're headed to a new South Suburban Airport from 355, 80 to 57 is likely to be the quickest route than anything else, even if the local routes are improved.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: abefroman329 on October 22, 2021, 08:17:21 PM
The Peotone airport is never going to happen.  Neither American nor United are going to use it.  Both ORD and MDW are in the middle of major expansion projects.  And efforts to turn GYY and RFD into Chicago's third airport haven't been roaring successes.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 22, 2021, 09:58:01 PM
The Peotone airport is never going to happen.  Neither American nor United are going to use it.  Both ORD and MDW are in the middle of major expansion projects.  And efforts to turn GYY and RFD into Chicago's third airport haven't been roaring successes.

Chicago already has three airports - Mitchell Airport in Milwaukee.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on October 23, 2021, 01:53:05 PM
Lately, the talk is of South Suburban Airport  being mainly a cargo airport. With Joliet and Elwood warehouses and Amazon opening multiple fulfillment centers in the I-57 corridor in Will and south Cook Counties, it might make sense for the logistics industry as a scaled-down air freight terminal. Agreed that passenger airlines are not seeing a need.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on October 26, 2021, 12:14:50 AM
Lately, the talk is of South Suburban Airport  being mainly a cargo airport. With Joliet and Elwood warehouses and Amazon opening multiple fulfillment centers in the I-57 corridor in Will and south Cook Counties, it might make sense for the logistics industry as a scaled-down air freight terminal. Agreed that passenger airlines are not seeing a need.

The way the railroads have really screwed the pooch by forcing so much interchange through Chicago, has not helped the situation one bit. (Neither has CSX dropping interchange to Indiana, Michigan and Ohio, truck only)

Of my last 2 orders of parts from China, one came air freight via Anchorage, the other came air freight via O'Hare.

The Anchorage order cleared customs in 24 hours. The order through O'Hare took 2 weeks to clear customs. It's still that bad.

So I have no issue with IDOT planning for a future "freight only" airport and have it so close to the Joliet Logistics centers.

Connect it to I-57, I-55 and I-80 to the west, and Indiana wants, I-65 (or farther to the east)

But as for I-355 access, it would be nice to connect the O'Hare freight warehouses directly, for N/S transfer, but too late. They will have to weave over using I-55 or IL-395.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Revive 755 on October 26, 2021, 10:34:38 PM
Cedar Road is just off the US 6/355 exit and connects to US 30, Laraway, Manhattan Monee and Wilmington Peotone roads. Not as elegant a solution as a 355 extension, but functional if you need it.

Functional is debatable:

* Two railroad crossings - doesn't seem hard to find a train on the one near Laraway Road.
* Multiple schools
* Intersection at US 30 may have capacity issues (particularly the southbound left)

Getting through New Lenox on Cedar just seems to take forever.  Not that I-80 and I-57 always seem to be doing much better.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: abefroman329 on October 27, 2021, 10:21:37 AM
Lately, the talk is of South Suburban Airport  being mainly a cargo airport. With Joliet and Elwood warehouses and Amazon opening multiple fulfillment centers in the I-57 corridor in Will and south Cook Counties, it might make sense for the logistics industry as a scaled-down air freight terminal. Agreed that passenger airlines are not seeing a need.
It would make sense for the cargo-only airlines, but I don't think, say, Lufthansa would be interested in splitting their passenger and cargo operations between O'Hare and the hypothetical Peotone airport.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on October 27, 2021, 10:39:31 AM
Functional is debatable:

* Two railroad crossings - doesn't seem hard to find a train on the one near Laraway Road.
* Multiple schools
* Intersection at US 30 may have capacity issues (particularly the southbound left)

Getting through New Lenox on Cedar just seems to take forever.  Not that I-80 and I-57 always seem to be doing much better.

Interestingly, Google says the Cedar/Manhattan Monee route (32 minutes) is only 3 minutes slower than I-80 to I-57 (29 minutes) from the I-355/US 6 interchange to the Monee exit on I-57. That's a snapshot in time though, with a few sections of I-57 in red and yellow as of now. Another alternate route showing the same 32 minutes as Cedar/MM is Cedar to US 30 to Wolf Rd. to Laraway Rd. to Center Road to Manhattan Monee.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: mukade on October 29, 2021, 07:55:58 AM
Illinois has a bit of a history of grandiose projects that turn out to be solutions in search of problems. Both the decades long efforts to build the third commercial airport near Peotone and the actual building of the MidAmerica St. Louis Airport fall into this category. On a smaller scale, I-180 and IL 336 are similar in that neither delivered the promised benefits despite high costs. Given that background, seriously planning out a freeway now that would serve a potential cargo air hub would fall into the same category and would be premature at best, in my opinion.

As for the benefits of an air cargo hub being close to the Joliet Logistics centers, how likely is it that items shipped by air will make it through the cross dock or intermodal facilities? Maybe they would, but it seems like it would defeat the purpose of paying the high shipping costs. Especially when FedEx and UPS have proven capabilities for fast last mile delivery.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Rick Powell on October 29, 2021, 09:14:54 AM
Illinois has a bit of a history of grandiose projects that turn out to be solutions in search of problems. Both the decades long efforts to build the third commercial airport near Peotone and the actual building of the MidAmerica St. Louis Airport fall into this category.

MidAmerica was once touted as a laughingstock of state airport development. It is now the 5th busiest commercial airport in the state, surpassing emplanements of airports like CIRA/Bloomington-Normal, Rockford International, U of I/Willard, and Abraham Lincoln/Springfield [And Chicago/Gary, which didn't have any commercial flights in 2020], and may get more usage with the Metro rail extension from Scott AFB to the Mid-America Terminal. Granted, it took a while to get off the ground :-)

As of now, there are only three cargo airports in the state worth mentioning; O'Hare, Rockford and Peoria. SSA will need to make the case that a fourth is needed, if freight is the direction it takes. 

Some projects never develop as planned, some take awhile to realize the full benefits, and some are a success (or over-successful) from day one.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on October 29, 2021, 10:40:37 AM
Illinois has a bit of a history of grandiose projects that turn out to be solutions in search of problems. Both the decades long efforts to build the third commercial airport near Peotone and the actual building of the MidAmerica St. Louis Airport fall into this category.

MidAmerica was once touted as a laughingstock of state airport development. It is now the 5th busiest commercial airport in the state, surpassing emplanements of airports like CIRA/Bloomington-Normal, Rockford International, U of I/Willard, and Abraham Lincoln/Springfield [And Chicago/Gary, which didn't have any commercial flights in 2020], and may get more usage with the Metro rail extension from Scott AFB to the Mid-America Terminal. Granted, it took a while to get off the ground :-)

As of now, there are only three cargo airports in the state worth mentioning; O'Hare, Rockford and Peoria. SSA will need to make the case that a fourth is needed, if freight is the direction it takes. 

Some projects never develop as planned, some take awhile to realize the full benefits, and some are a success (or over-successful) from day one.

I don't want to get too far off onto the shoulder here (do we have noise strips in a highway thread?)

Mid-America is currently in a much needed gate expansion. I think it has met its purpose. (but they charge for parking now, Rockford still doesn't)

As for the extension of Metro Rail, I want to be a proponent but I am now skeptical. I recently flew through Mid-America and they were out of rental cars. So I was going to jump on Metro Rail (Red Line) at Shiloh-Scott to go over to Lambert where more cars were available. The first Lambert station is just above the rental car shuttle lane. However, Metro said it was going to take 1.5 hours to reach Lambert because it stops at *every* station. No expresses.  A car with low traffic can traverse the 38 miles to Lambert in about 40 minutes. I would think (hope) that when the extension is done they can do an "airport express" where a Lambert-MidAmerica service would only make 2 stops downtown to pick up travelers and move on.
\
As for Peotone and freight, it will sit right along the I-80 corridor and next to the railroad logistics parks, I think it will be the perfect spot for a freight only airport. Chicago fights it because they fear it will drain off discount airlines from that antique called Midway. As long as there is no RTA expansion to Peotone, I think there fears are unfounded.

We discuss how bridges and highways are "functionally obsolete", that is my take on Midway. I have seen more close calls in that relic than I can shake a stick at.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Revive 755 on October 29, 2021, 10:28:20 PM
^ Metro Rail?  When did the name change from Metrolink?
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on October 29, 2021, 11:50:12 PM
^ Metro Rail?  When did the name change from Metrolink?

Metro Rail = MetroLink

My error.

MetroBus

MetroTransit

and the parent name = Metro.

I think we have it covered now.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: mukade on October 30, 2021, 04:39:09 PM
Illinois has a bit of a history of grandiose projects that turn out to be solutions in search of problems. Both the decades long efforts to build the third commercial airport near Peotone and the actual building of the MidAmerica St. Louis Airport fall into this category.

MidAmerica was once touted as a laughingstock of state airport development. It is now the 5th busiest commercial airport in the state, surpassing emplanements of airports like CIRA/Bloomington-Normal, Rockford International, U of I/Willard, and Abraham Lincoln/Springfield [And Chicago/Gary, which didn't have any commercial flights in 2020], and may get more usage with the Metro rail extension from Scott AFB to the Mid-America Terminal. Granted, it took a while to get off the ground :-)

As of now, there are only three cargo airports in the state worth mentioning; O'Hare, Rockford and Peoria. SSA will need to make the case that a fourth is needed, if freight is the direction it takes. 

Some projects never develop as planned, some take awhile to realize the full benefits, and some are a success (or over-successful) from day one.

While there are now some year around and seasonal Allegiant flights into Mid-America Airport, let's keep things in perspective. The most recent numbers I saw for enplanements there was 152,000 a year which is less than 1% of what St. Louis Lambert gets. They also throw out the number of 302,000 total passengers, but I think that number includes those passengers that are on planes that land there, but do not disembark (i.e. they never enter the terminal building).  So it is confusing, but even if 302,000 passengers actually went through the terminal in a year, it would be less than 2% of what Lambert has. The Mid-America facility cost over $321 to build, and essentially sat empty for 17 years so it drained even more taxpayer money every year including up to the current year. That is not success, and that most certainly does fall into the category of a solution that was looking for a problem.
 
So my point is that any expensive road projects as this thread is about need to be justified based on actual need rather than speculation.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: cwm1276 on October 30, 2021, 05:37:22 PM
Parking has not been free at the Rockford airport for a couple years ago. 

They have become quite the cargo operation. 
Amazon had a 747 sitting there this morning, 1 of 7 planes on the ground at Amazon.  Of course most of UPS's operations are overnight so it is harder to drive by and see their activity, but they typically have 2 or 3 planes on their ramp.

They are working building the next cargo building now.

Rockford is becoming that Chicago freight airport already.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: I-39 on October 30, 2021, 06:12:00 PM
Illinois has a bit of a history of grandiose projects that turn out to be solutions in search of problems. Both the decades long efforts to build the third commercial airport near Peotone and the actual building of the MidAmerica St. Louis Airport fall into this category.

MidAmerica was once touted as a laughingstock of state airport development. It is now the 5th busiest commercial airport in the state, surpassing emplanements of airports like CIRA/Bloomington-Normal, Rockford International, U of I/Willard, and Abraham Lincoln/Springfield [And Chicago/Gary, which didn't have any commercial flights in 2020], and may get more usage with the Metro rail extension from Scott AFB to the Mid-America Terminal. Granted, it took a while to get off the ground :-)

As of now, there are only three cargo airports in the state worth mentioning; O'Hare, Rockford and Peoria. SSA will need to make the case that a fourth is needed, if freight is the direction it takes. 

Some projects never develop as planned, some take awhile to realize the full benefits, and some are a success (or over-successful) from day one.

While there are now some year around and seasonal Allegiant flights into Mid-America Airport, let's keep things in perspective. The most recent numbers I saw for enplanements there was 152,000 a year which is less than 1% of what St. Louis Lambert gets. They also throw out the number of 302,000 total passengers, but I think that number includes those passengers that are on planes that land there, but do not disembark (i.e. they never enter the terminal building).  So it is confusing, but even if 302,000 passengers actually went through the terminal in a year, it would be less than 2% of what Lambert has. The Mid-America facility cost over $321 to build, and essentially sat empty for 17 years so it drained even more taxpayer money every year including up to the current year. That is not success, and that most certainly does fall into the category of a solution that was looking for a problem.
 
So my point is that any expensive road projects as this thread is about need to be justified based on actual need rather than speculation.

Exactly. It might be busier now than when it first opened, but Mid-America is no where close to being where it was projected to be. It was meant to be a reliever for St. Louis Lambert Airport, but that need ended the minute TWA went bankrupt. Allegiant could easily be accommodated at Lambert, there is no need for Mid-America.

Likewise, the SSA just needs to be canceled already. There is ZERO need there. O’Hare, with its new runways, is no where close to being maxed out, both passenger and cargo. They need to focus on rebuilding the terminals at O’Hare and expanding cargo at Rockford and Gary/Chicago.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: silverback1065 on November 23, 2021, 09:45:37 PM
reading this thread makes me think the stereotype is true, everyone in the midwest that doesn't live in chicago, hates chicago  :-D
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: cabiness42 on November 23, 2021, 10:14:08 PM
reading this thread makes me think the stereotype is true, everyone in the midwest that doesn't live in chicago, hates chicago  :-D

The Midwest as a whole is predominantly rural, dotted by lots of small cities and occasional mid-sized cities. The Midwest is also much more homogeneous than other parts of the country. If kids grow up and never visit Chicago (or any other big city) as a kid, I imagine it could be very overwhelming when visiting for the first time as an adult, so it can get a bad rap for that reason.

I was fortunate to have parents that liked to travel a lot, and specifically liked traveling to sporting events, so I'd been to Chicago over a dozen times before age 18. By the time I was an adult, I was as comfortable driving to Chicago as I was to the next town over from where I lived.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Brandon on November 24, 2021, 05:47:55 AM
reading this thread makes me think the stereotype is true, everyone in the midwest that doesn't live in chicago, hates chicago  :-D

I find it has a lot more to do with the attitudes of those inside the Tri-State though, than those outside.  You have a lot of Chicagoans who never or rarely leave the city and never see a reason to visit the rest of the Midwest.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: US20IL64 on November 24, 2021, 10:52:57 AM
OTOH, lots of 'regional' folks have vacation homes in WI and MI. And, many Midwesterners like to visit Downtown, Michigan Av, Lincoln Park, and museums. Not so 'absolute'.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on November 24, 2021, 10:56:59 AM
reading this thread makes me think the stereotype is true, everyone in the midwest that doesn't live in chicago, hates chicago  :-D

The Midwest as a whole is predominantly rural, dotted by lots of small cities and occasional mid-sized cities. The Midwest is also much more homogeneous than other parts of the country. If kids grow up and never visit Chicago (or any other big city) as a kid, I imagine it could be very overwhelming when visiting for the first time as an adult, so it can get a bad rap for that reason.

I was fortunate to have parents that liked to travel a lot, and specifically liked traveling to sporting events, so I'd been to Chicago over a dozen times before age 18. By the time I was an adult, I was as comfortable driving to Chicago as I was to the next town over from where I lived.

Same here.

When I moved to the Chicago area at age 14, I had been into the city more than my entire grade combined. And they only lived 25 miles away.

As for this thread subject:

User 3467  reported there was some noise this week (as reported in the Daily Southtown) by south suburban legislators on the delays on the SSA and its associated highways. @3467 also reported that they want the work on the Illiana to be  resumed as well.

Daily Southtown is behind the Chicago Tribune paywall now, but it was also covered in a newsfeed service out of Springfield.

If someone can find a good link to the story, please post.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on November 24, 2021, 11:00:08 AM
reading this thread makes me think the stereotype is true, everyone in the midwest that doesn't live in chicago, hates chicago  :-D

I find it has a lot more to do with the attitudes of those inside the Tri-State though, than those outside.  You have a lot of Chicagoans who never or rarely leave the city and never see a reason to visit the rest of the Midwest.

When I worked in Chicago, many of my co-workers who lived in the city didn't own cars. They took the CTA to O'Hare and never had a reason to visit outside the city limits.

My employer at the time had their own rental car pool, so if employees had to go out to a suburban office, they simply checked one out.

Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: 3467 on November 24, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Yes this is a good thread. Please do post it. It seems the Illiana and airport might be alive.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on November 25, 2021, 12:43:55 AM
https://capitolfax.com/2021/11/22/after-stinging-letter-from-legislators-pritzker-administration-finally-attends-meeting-on-south-suburban-airport/ (https://capitolfax.com/2021/11/22/after-stinging-letter-from-legislators-pritzker-administration-finally-attends-meeting-on-south-suburban-airport/)

After stinging letter from legislators, Pritzker administration finally attends meeting on south suburban airport
Monday, Nov 22, 2021


* Ted Slowik…

South suburban economic development boosters met Thursday with state officials for the first time in three years to discuss the proposed South Suburban Airport near Peotone, an official said Friday.

State lawmakers who represent the region likely prompted the meeting by sending a letter to Gov. J.B. Pritzker, said Rick Bryant, an aide to U.S. Rep. Robin Kelly, D-Matteson. […]

The congressional aide said he informed state officials that Amazon and others are using the Rockford airport as a cargo hub but eyeing an airport in Gary, Indiana, because it is closer to Chicago-area distribution centers, Bryant said. […]

Gary’s airport is landlocked and cannot expand beyond a single runway, Bryant said. Amazon and others would prefer a site with multiple runways that is not already congested with commercial air traffic, he said.

“In the long term we have a better site,” Bryant said. “In the short term Gary has the upper hand.”

* That letter was quite something…

As representatives of the Chicago Southland, we are disappointed by your Administration’s steadfast opposition to a proposed South Suburban Airport, which is potentially one of the largest commercial developments to locate in Illinois in decades.

We know this because your Administration:

1) Hired consultants to find alternative uses for the selected airport site;
2) Eliminated Phase I Engineering for a proposed airport interchange from IDOT’s five-year plan (rendering a budgeted $162 million line-item for constructing that interchange essentially meaningless);
3) Refused meeting with private developers interested in financing the project;
4) Refused meeting with regional leadership to discuss next steps;
5) Sat idly as UPS expanded its Rockford air cargo hub across the state line to Gary Airport; and
6) Sat idly as Amazon built new air cargo hubs in many Midwestern states - but not Illinois.
For thirty-five years, Illinois governor after Illinois governor, FAA administrator after FAA administrator, aviation/economic impact study after aviation/economic impact study have concluded that Metro Chicago needs a third major airport to handle future capacity demands. Studies also conclude the ideal location for that airport is the FAA-approved site near Monee.

The Southland is blessed with the nation’s busiest network of road and rail infrastructure. A new airport would be essential to an innovative, world-class, multi-modal, mega e-commerce cluster. As longtime Southland residents, we’ve witnessed our region overlooked. We will no longer stand idly by for any Governor who does not make improving the economic quality of life in our region a top priority.

Thus, we write to respectfully ask your Administration to immediately:

1) Begin Phase I Engineering on the proposed airport interchange on I-57 at mile­ marker 332;
2) Complete land acquisition with funds already appropriated by the General Assembly;
3) Refresh the Environment Impact Study;
4) Complete the final airport “master plan” and seek a Record of Decision from the FAA.
Finally, there is great private-sector interest in the airport, thus, we urge the State to draft a master development agreement and solicit bids from private companies willing to finance, construct, maintain and operate the airport on State-owned land.

The Southland, with our extraordinary transportation assets, has the potential to be a model 21st Century e-commerce hub that could be the envy of the nation. But that will only happen if the State defines its role and demonstrates its commitment to lead a public-private partnership.

We thank you for your time and remain eager to work with your Administration on this ambitious, overdue, innovative investment in Illinois’ near- and long-term future.

The letter was signed by Sen. Michael Hastings and Reps. Will Davis and Kelly Burke.

Gov. Pritzker has focused quite a lot of attention on the Rockford airport. And south suburban types are upset at his lack of focus on their region on numerous other issues as well, including things like the Illiana Expressway and water issues within the inner ring suburbs like Dixmoor.

Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: Brandon on November 25, 2021, 05:12:20 AM
JB is rather typical for his type, a north side Chicagoan.  He never thinks nor sees past 87th Street.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: silverback1065 on November 25, 2021, 01:27:34 PM
I follow the sterotype  :-D . Anyway i drove 355 for the 1st time, good interstate and great bypass, may need a 4th lane some day. 294 is nice but it's under construction for like 5 million miles. i see everyones point about the ending. I think it should go south of 80 and tie into 65, that would take off so much pressure from 80. I also think it is stupid 53 doesn't go up and tie into 94 near the state line. that whole part of the metro area is a mess in terms of good freeways.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: edwaleni on November 26, 2021, 11:06:09 AM
I follow the sterotype  :-D . Anyway i drove 355 for the 1st time, good interstate and great bypass, may need a 4th lane some day. 294 is nice but it's under construction for like 5 million miles. i see everyones point about the ending. I think it should go south of 80 and tie into 65, that would take off so much pressure from 80. I also think it is stupid 53 doesn't go up and tie into 94 near the state line. that whole part of the metro area is a mess in terms of good freeways.

99.999% of the contributors on this site would agree with your assessment of IL-53. So much so, any news on it generates about a 300% response in return.

I drove I-355 when it first opened for those "free days" with just 2 lanes each way and even then I said, this is going to need a third lane asap.

Unfortunately there is a very vocal "anti-sprawl" voice in Illinois politics and the first thing they go after is highways.

Even though the sprawl occurred in Lake County even though the road didn't even exist, they persist.

So it was with any extensions into Will County. The anti-road crowd instantly assumed that the world would follow the road.

The county is still growing, and there is no road. It's a fallacy that keeps getting perpetuated.
Title: Re: Why wasn't the I-355 extension to I-57 more seriously considered?
Post by: US20IL64 on November 26, 2021, 11:14:01 AM
I follow the sterotype  :-D . Anyway i drove 355 for the 1st time, good interstate and great bypass, may need a 4th lane some day. 294 is nice but it's under construction for like 5 million miles. i see everyones point about the ending. I think it should go south of 80 and tie into 65, that would take off so much pressure from 80. I also think it is stupid 53 doesn't go up and tie into 94 near the state line. that whole part of the metro area is a mess in terms of good freeways.

99.999% of the contributors on this site would agree with your assessment of IL-53. So much so, any news on it generates about a 300% response in return.

I drove I-355 when it first opened for those "free days" with just 2 lanes each way and even then I said, this is going to need a third lane asap.

Unfortunately there is a very vocal "anti-sprawl" voice in Illinois politics and the first thing they go after is highways.

Even though the sprawl occurred in Lake County even though the road didn't even exist, they persist.

So it was with any extensions into Will County. The anti-road crowd instantly assumed that the world would follow the road.

The county is still growing, and there is no road. It's a fallacy that keeps getting perpetuated.

The north 53 extension was on its way about 10-20 years ago, but town of Long Grove and some others stopped it. Upper class $$$ folks can do that. Meanwhile middle class people sit at red lights on US-12, etc. Who knows? Maybe future will get an at grade road?